Why transgender and gender diverse inclusion matters with Tara Laursen

This is a special episode in recognition of International Transgender Day of Visibility (TDOV) which happens every year on March 31. This day is for learning more about and celebrating the lives and achievements of transgender people.  Our theme for this episode is inclusion for transgender and gender diverse people and why it matters.  And what does meaningful inclusion really look like when it comes to things like community participation, health services, human rights and policy development, to name just a few. 

Our guest for this episode is Tara Laursen who is ermha365’s Chief Operations Officer. Tara is bringing her own living experience as a member of the transgender community to this conversation.

General information and basic concepts:
Transhub 101
Minus18: Trans 101 – The Basics (youtube)

Support for transgender and questioning people:
Transgender Victoria
Queerspace

Support for family members/parents:
Transcend 

Information for allies
GLAAD: Tips for allies of transgender people
Minus18: How to be a trans ally
Trans Justice Project: Conversations for Trans Justice

Information entioned in podcast
Equality Australia research
Banning trans women from sport ignores so many inconvenient truths by Natalie Feliks (online article)
Australian Human Rights Commission national project mapping threats to trans and gender diverse (TGD) human rights in Australia.

Helplines:
Lifeline on 13 11 14
QLIFE can be contacted on 1800 184 527
13 YARN on 13 92 76

ermha365 provides mental health and disability support for people in Victoria and the Northern Territory. Find out more about our services at our website.

ermha365 acknowledges that our work in the community takes place on the Traditional Lands of many Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Peoples and therefore respectfully recognise their Elders, past and present, and the ongoing Custodianship of the Land and Water by all Members of these Communities.

We recognise people with lived experience who contribute to GET REAL podcast, and those who love, support and care for them. We recognise their strength, courage and unique perspective as a vital contribution so that we can learn, grow and achieve better outcomes together.

Transcript

ermha365 team: 0:00

GetReal is recorded on the unceded lands of the Boon wurrung and Wurundjeri peoples of the Kulin Nation. We acknowledge and pay our respects to their elders, past and present. We also acknowledge that the First Peoples of Australia are the first storytellers, the first artists and the first creators of culture and we celebrate their enduring connections to country knowledge and stories and we celebrate their enduring connections to country.

ermha365 team: 0:27

Knowledge and stories. Welcome to Get Real talking. Mental health and disability brought to you by the team at erma365.

ermha365 team: 0:45

Join our hosts Emily Webb and Karenza Louis-Smith, as we have frank and fearless conversations with special guests about all things mental health and complexity.

ermha365 team: 0:48

We recognise people with lived experience of mental ill health and disability, as well as their families and carers. We recognise their strength, courage and unique perspective as a vital contribution to this podcast so we can learn, grow and achieve better outcomes together.

Tara Laursen: 1:10

One of the reasons I decided that I really wanted to do this podcast with you is I think it's so important to show people that there are actually trans people everywhere, people that we work with, there's colleagues, there's friends, there's family members. Trans people are everywhere, and I think it's so important that we actually share our experiences, because otherwise we can often feel like we're the only ones in the world.

Emily Webb: 1:34

Welcome to Get Real Talking Mental Health and Disability. I'm Emily Webb and I'm joined by erma365's CEO and co-host, Karenza Louis-Smith This is a special episode in recognition of International Transgender Day of Visibility, which happens every year on March 31st. This day is for learning more about and celebrating the lives and achievements of transgender people, and we also want to acknowledge that, for reasons including stigma, discrimination and barriers to healthcare, transgender and gender diverse people experience worse mental health and high rates of psychological distress. It's not easy or even safe for all transgender people to feel they can be visible in their communities. Our theme for this episode is inclusion for transgender and gender diverse people and why it matters, and what does meaningful inclusion really look like when it comes to things like community participation, health services, human rights and policy development, just to name a few?

Emily Webb: 2:43

Our guest for this episode is Tara Laursen, who is ermha 365's Chief Operations Officer. Tara started her career as a housing support worker, then became an occupational therapist, and she has worked in mental health and community and social services ever since, including organisations Launch Housing, nemai national Wellways, better Health Network and the Eastern Melbourne Primary Health Network. Tara is also a non-executive board member of several organisations, including the Victorian Pride Centre. Tara is bringing her own living experience as a member of the transgender community to this conversation, own living experience as a member of the transgender community to this conversation. And before we launch in, I want to remind listeners that you can get 24-7 support from Lifeline on 13, 11, 14. And there is also QLife on 1-800-184-527. That's available in Australia from 3pm to midnight seven days and that's for the LGBTIQA plus community, also their families and friends, and 13 Yarn, 13 92 76 for First Nations Australians. Welcome, Tara, we are so pleased that you are our guest.

Tara Laursen: 3:57

Thank you, it's great to be here.

Emily Webb: 4:00

So, Tara, firstly, can you tell us why you chose to work in the mental health and community services space and why you continue to do so? Because it's not an easy area to work in.

Tara Laursen: 4:11

Yeah, but it's also a very rewarding space to work in and, I guess, for me. I've always had an interest in creating inclusive communities. So I grew up with deaf parents and I just observed far too many ways in which they weren't able to do the things that were important to them, or how a lot of doors just remained closed for them, and especially also how hard it could be for them to get any kind of health or social support services in place. So I've always been quite interested in really working on inclusion in that space, and I'm very interested in health, not just as an absence of poor health, but also in enabling people to do the things that are important to them.

Karenza Louis-Smith: 4:49

And, as Emily said at the start, this episode why Transgender and Diverse Inclusion Matters is actually really important, because this is International Transgender Day of Visibility. Basically, this day is for learning more about and celebrating the lives and achievements of transgender people. Now, not everyone listening to this podcast is for learning more about and celebrating the lives and achievements of transgender people. Now, not everyone listening to this podcast is necessarily going to understand what it means to be transgender, identify as transgender, but you might know people in your lives, in your community, or just want to know more. So, Tara, I thought just to kind of get on the same page. Let's do a bit of a trans 101. You know, what does it mean when people identify as being transgender and what is it that the community needs to understand about that?

Tara Laursen: 5:29

It is a really good question and I think it's a very important one to get out of the way early on. Essentially, a transgender person is a person who was born and given an assigned agenda that's different to the one that they live in or present as, and that can be in all sorts of different ways. I think an essential part of that understanding is to recognise that the terms around sex characteristics and gender are separate concepts. Where one refers to your innate sense of yourself, the other one is around embodiment and body characteristics. It's also important to remember that it's a really wide community and people identify in many different ways. So that's why people are often using the term of gender diverse, which refers to people who may identify as being non-binary, gender fluid or agender. So that's people who feel that none of the genders out there really fit their identity, or some people who just can't be bothered with gender at all.

Karenza Louis-Smith: 6:22

Fair enough, perfect. I think that's got us kind of onto the same page. So, look, I really want to talk a bit about lived and living experience. You know, and I guess that phrase nothing about us without us, you know, and that's been, I think, something that's been really strong in what I would call the LGBTIQA plus community, I think really forever, and now, more broadly, I think it's been adopted right across the whole lived and living experience community and it's been a major focus of the recommendations that came out with Victoria's Royal Commission into the mental health system. So I'm keen to talk about meaningful inclusion and what does it look like for transgender and gender diverse people? And also through, I guess, your own lived and living experience lens as well and the things that you're all kind of comfortable to share with our listeners today. Why is this such an important thing?

Tara Laursen: 7:10

It's a hugely important thing and I think it's important on so many different levels. First of all, a lot of trans people can have a bit of a complicated relationship to health and mental health because for a very long time we were considered as being mentally ill just because of our gender identities, which was a strange experience for a lot of people. But also, in addition, we know that many trans people don't seek medical care or the types of supports because they might have their perception that they're not going to be welcomed, they're not going to be respected, they're not going to be safe. I've certainly had my fair share of experiences of the healthcare system not really being made for me. But then there's also another dimension in that a lot of trans people like myself have also had to access the healthcare system to get some of the gender affirming care that we wanted, like hormones and surgery, and getting through that process can also be extremely difficult because you can feel like you're being judged or you're being scrutinized.

Tara Laursen: 8:06

It's just fundamentally really dehumanizing to hand your gender identity into someone else's hands and just hope for them to get along with you and actually agree. And in my own experience, it makes me feel like I am old when I say this, but at the time when I started that journey I didn't know this at the time. But I quickly learned that the prevalent assumption was that if you're trans, you also needed to be straight, otherwise you're just confused. So I completely failed to get a diagnosis at first because I wasn't straight. How old were you, tara?

Karenza Louis-Smith: 8:36

21. That's a hell of a kind of journey to go through at that age. How did you even kind of know where to begin? How did you find that pathway for yourself?

Tara Laursen: 8:45

age. How did you even kind of know where to begin? How did you find that pathway for yourself? Well, I didn't really, and I think that's why I kind of bombed it at first and I failed to get through the door in the first instance because I didn't know what you had to say. I just told them about, you know who I was, and then, yeah, finding the door in the first place was really hard, and it was only through community and finding, you know, friends, of friends, of friends.

Tara Laursen: 9:03

This was also before the internet was the same thing as it is now. You know, there weren't as many forums and all of that, so it was really difficult, but that shared community knowledge was really, really important. And I think that's also where inclusion becomes a really key question for services like ours, because a lot of people have had negative experiences in many different ways and I think it's so much easier to remember that one time where you had a bad experience compared to the 10 times where you had a positive one, and word of mouth really spreads. So I think if services aren't seeing a lot of trans people, sometimes because people talk about them or people might not want to disclose their gender identity when they access the service- it's a tricky one, isn't it Like do you walk into a service and how is that service walking them in a way that it's safe to kind of do that?

Karenza Louis-Smith: 9:51

I think that's really hard.

Tara Laursen: 9:53

Well, I think in many ways it can be, but it can also be really simple and I think, like with any other person, the key is really just acknowledging that the person is the expert in their own life, and part of that is understanding how they see themselves and how they identify and really respecting that. Not pathologizing or putting values judgments on how people identify, but also asking questions instead of assuming. And I think another key concept that often comes up in these conversations is around pronouns, which can be a bit confusing for some people. Essentially, pronoun refers to how you want to be referred to Commonly, that is, she, her or he, him. They can also be they, them for people who are, for instance, non-binary and really not assuming anyone's pronouns based on their appearance, based on their name or anything else, but just asking them and then, when they tell you, respecting that.

Karenza Louis-Smith: 10:43

I sometimes think this is what people are afraid of, afraid to ask. You know, can I ask your pronouns? Is it okay for people to be kind of curious about your pronouns and things too?

Tara Laursen: 10:53

Yeah, I think it's important we think about why we ask the questions that we do, and ideally we would ask everyone what their pronouns are, because we can't assume and also through actively sharing our own, we're also signaling that we're creating a space where it's okay to talk about, which is why, in my email signature, I always put my pronouns in, so that people know that that's the same thing to actually talk about.

Karenza Louis-Smith: 11:12

I think it's important to take time and go look, I do feel a bit silly, I don't know, I don't understand. Um, how can I learn more? How can I educate myself and we might talk later about what it means to be an ally as well but how then, can you help to educate other people too? Because I think that's one of the really big things that buys into stigma and discrimination.

Emily Webb: 11:30

You mentioned, tara, that people are the experts in their own lives. Let's talk about lived and living experience advisory committees, because everyone's got one now. They've become a mainstay of organisations, not just not-for-profits, but, you know, big corporations have got them health services. Can you talk a bit about your experience professionally, but also personally, with advisory roles?

Tara Laursen: 11:56

Yeah, I think it's great that we're finally seeing, from a policy perspective, that there's a lot more focus on actually listening to the people that we're working with across our sectors, because we've known for a long time that the best people to identify what the problems are are the people who are experiencing those issues, and they're often also the ones that come up with really good solutions. So I think it can be incredibly valuable to have these groups, and I think some of them can look in quite different ways. I've personally been involved on a few expert advisory committees, for instance, with the Victorian government, that have been centred around LGBTIQA plus health and wellbeing, and that's really bringing together experts from within those communities to inform public policy and programmes, and I think it's been a really valuable space to also speak from some lived experience around some of the experiences I've had around healthcare systems and other social services and just some of the confusion that you might face or some of the invisible barriers that might be in place, which are some of the barriers that are not put there from any ill intent, but just because people might not actually understand what the ramifications of certain processes or systems might be. In other spaces, reference and advisory groups can also be used that are focused more on the identity and not necessarily people who have a professional role in that space, but really valuing that lived experience is a discipline and is a background of expertise as well.

Tara Laursen: 13:17

It's really important to also ensure that there's a focus on intersectionality, which is another concept that's thrown around a lot, on intersectionality, which is another concept that's thrown around a lot. So, in short, intersectionality recognizes that we don't just walking around having one identity and one way of experiencing the world, and it's not just a matter of adding up the different ways of experiencing it. Like, in addition to being trans, I'm also same-sex attracted, I'm also a white person. These things don't just add up next to each other, they also intersect, and that's where the whole name comes from, because the way that I experience being a trans person is influenced by those dimensions as well. They don't just sit neatly next to each other, they influence each other as well.

Karenza Louis-Smith: 13:56

This is really exciting stuff, I think, tara, when you start to think about how people with lived and living experience voices can actually begin to influence policy planning, thinking, services and supports. And I'm really excited by the work that you're doing here at Irma as well, including the stuff that you're doing about leading our lived and living experience advisory committee too, advisory Committee too, and, in particular, about how you know ensuring diverse representation. Again, you talk about intersectionality, but that diversity, as well of experience, is reflected in lived and living experience advisory councils or groups.

Tara Laursen: 14:31

Yes, it's a fantastic opportunity to really work with that group and looking at how we can crystallise all the learnings that we've had from engaging lived and living experience for a really long time, but also recognising some of the things that are happening out there in the sector what's happening in some of the groups that I've been in and really look at how we can bring that in. And I've been really lucky to get to kick that off and engage people in that process. And it's been really important to me to make sure that we capture a lot of different types of lived and living experience because, with that intersectional approach, people's experience of mental health or addiction or disabilities is deeply influenced by how they are in the world as well. So it's been really important for me to seek out some voices from different communities and we've put in a lot of work to really map out some of the people in this space that we thought would be fantastic voices. So watch this space. We might have some good announcements to make soon.

Emily Webb: 15:23

That's exciting. Yeah, I'm really excited for that work too, and something about the work that is done in mental health is about community participation as a way to, you know, have good mental health and live the kind of life you want. And you know a lot of the I don't even think I can call it conversation, the so-called debate and really there's a lot of hate on out there at the moment, particularly for trans and gender diverse people around issues around women's spaces and sport. And there was an excellent opinion piece online on newscomau and I was a bit shocked it was on newscomau in the first place, but I was glad it was, because that's got a lot of you know gets across a lot of eyeballs.

Emily Webb: 16:06

This piece was by a Melbourne writer called Natalie Feliks and it was published in September last year and we'll put a link in the show notes to it, and it came across my Twitter feed, and Natalie's a huge sports fan as well as being a transgender woman. It was about this so-called debate about trans women competing in sport, and the title was Banning Trans Women from Sport. Ignores so Many Inconvenient Truths, and Natalie wrote about the issue being, in her words, grossly oversimplified. I thought it was an amazing piece. I shared it with my oldest daughter and some friends. I just want to read a paragraph from it.

Emily Webb: 16:40

So Natalie wrote the reality is that trans women are among the most discriminated people in society. This isn't a cue to emotion. This is a simple fact backed up by statistics on mental health, income and education, and these are the facts that cause the ripple effect that make elite sports participation totally unobtainable for any aspiring trans athlete. There is a political wave against trans people in society at the moment, and this debate is just another aspect of that, and so we know participation in activities like sport, art, social groups is really important for wellbeing. So, tara, what impact at the community level is this? What Natalie phrased the political wave against trans people having on inclusion or exclusion more like it in the example of sports, even non-competitive recreation activities for transgender people, and that is a long question, but I think that article was really great as a starting point to discuss.

Tara Laursen: 17:40

Well, first of all, I think it's fantastic that there's so many people who are suddenly really engaged in women's sport. I've been very surprised from particularly some men who've not had a word to say about women's sport in decades and now all of a sudden it is their key concern. So I think that's always great when women's sport gets a bit of a lift. I think the question of competitive sport competitive elite sport, I should say is not an easy one, and especially when you start picking apart biology as part of sex and sex characteristics, and that in itself is just a lot more complex than the neat binary. So I'm not a biologist. I do understand that there's been a lot of difficulties in actually defining where that neat line between male and female they're looking for actually is, and I think it's fair to say that science is really the major voice on this debate, or we should call it so, the guidelines that are being looked at by these elite sport leagues, which represent a tiny minority of sport and a tiny minority of the people who engage in sport. They tend to trickle down to levels that aren't competitive at all, even, and unfortunately they can result in exclusion from even a local sports club. So because a professional elite league might decide to restrict trans women's participation. Sometimes that can trickle down to all other clubs that are engaging in the same sport, even if it's not competitive at all, and unfortunately that means that people are being booted out of clubs and they aren't able to even participate in sports. So I'm personally I'm a huge fan of a lot of different outdoor activities and sports, but, on a personal note, I've just decided to stay clear of anything that's competitive because I really don't want to get caught up in that culture war and unfortunately it's also made it really hard to engage in team sports.

Tara Laursen: 19:24

And I find it really ironic how the focus in this debate is so often on what's called women's safety, but it just neatly ignores the fact that trans people, and especially trans women, are far more often the victims of crime and violence, and unfortunately we're not seeing a focus on that. We are seeing positive things that are happening as well, for instance, around pride rounds and violence, and unfortunately we're not seeing a focus on that. We are seeing positive things that are happening as well, for instance, around pride rounds and matches. They can be really important. But I also feel like often there's a strong focus on being gay, lesbian and bisexual, bisexual inclusive and there's really an engagement with trans inclusion in that space. So sometimes we see pride matches from leagues where trans people can't even compete, so there's no way we can take part in the pride round now, just listening to that just blows my mind.

Karenza Louis-Smith: 20:07

When you think you know we're actually excluding a part of our population from taking part in sports. I mean, it's just words. Words fail me, absolutely fail me, and I think, tara, you're right. That last point that you make. You know that I'm saying this as a woman that focuses often on a woman's safety. But trans people, and especially trans women, are far more often the victims than perpetrators of crime, and they're the victims in this place too, and this is the bit that again blows my mind, my mind. So right now, the australian human rights commission is doing a national project mapping threats to trans and gender diverse human rights in Australia. So, mapping threats and asking for living experience submissions I think you just have to look, don't you, at the histories of hate crimes, the things that have been happening.

Karenza Louis-Smith: 20:56

What would you like people listening to our conversation today to understand about what it's like to have your rights debated by people who have no idea what your life is like? And I know how this feels. I mean, people that listen to this podcast know I'm, you know, openly gay. I'm married to my wife. It was pretty full on when we had the kind of plebiscite the debate on whether or not, you know, gay people are allowed to get married or not, and you know it's like why does everybody else have the right to choose what I can do with my life? You know, and I went through a wave of emotions. I can only imagine that's magnified a billion times when the things I think that perhaps, as a trans person, you're facing every day and you know, here we are. As Emily said, it's on X, twitter, whatever we call it these days and papers. There's debate everywhere. You know what, yeah, what do you want people who are listening today to know about what that's like for you?

Tara Laursen: 21:47

going back to the marriage equality plebiscite, that was really hard, and, as a lesbian myself, I found that really challenging in all the ways. I do think that a big difference, though, is that when we had that plebiscite, most people in Australia at least, knew someone who was directly impacted. It wasn't just a matter of answering the question about marriage equality. It was also about how is this going to influence Karenza, how is this going to influence this other person at work who I quite like? And research from Equality Australia shows that it's only about one in 10 Australians who report that they personally know a trans person well, so it can often become a lot more abstract for people, and there's so much fear-mongering out there as well. The same research also shows that the overwhelming majority of Australians support equal rights and protections for trans people. I'm a bit concerned about the way it gets portrayed in media as well, because having everyone sit together and agreeing is really an exciting story to tell. So often there's a bit of a pull towards the drama, towards the conflict. Having mentioned some of these statistics, there might be people out there who feel like these questions aren't that relevant to them in their life, and they might not know anyone who's trans. If you're one of those people who say that they don't know anyone who's trans, if you're one of those people who say that they don't know anyone who's trans, the only thing that means is actually just that you don't know anyone who's trans, who's chosen to share that fact about themselves with you.

Tara Laursen: 23:12

I do want to touch on the whole concept around coming out and visibility, especially recognizing that it is transgender visibility For trans people coming out can be very different than it is transgender day of visibility. But trans people coming out can be very different than it is coming out based on your sexuality. For instance, me coming out as a lesbian is in my interest because it shows people who I am in the world. It shows people who I love. It can be hard for me to be seen if I'm not out in that way, whereas if I come out to people as a transgender person, it can also make them see me as less real in my gender and that's a really uncomfortable experience to have. It can also be seen as inviting debate about my gender, which is the last thing that I want.

Karenza Louis-Smith: 23:51

Yeah, it would be the last thing. And it's interesting, isn't it? I mean, I think about coming out like I'm in I'm 54, right. So I came out a long, long time ago. It was terrifying, it was right. So I came out a long, long time ago. It was terrifying, it was absolutely terrifying coming out, and you know, I think the world for someone like me today has become a lot easier to come out. But I think what I'm hearing you say is it's still as hard, if not harder, for trans people to come out. I think that's the there's a there's a really strong difference here, the point that you're making it can be harder.

Tara Laursen: 24:18

but I think the challenge is also around that ongoing experience of coming out. I mean me coming out now is very different, where I, in many ways, I fly under the radar and I'm seen in the gender that I want to be seen as. So for me, coming out can sometimes question whether I am in that gender at all to some people, whereas for someone coming out early days in transition, it can be hard because they're also asking people to see them in a different way than they have previously, asking people to use different pronouns, asking people to respect a different way of identifying. So I think it changes over your lifetime. But I think it's also important to acknowledge that a lot of trans people don't really feel the need to be out, and I think that's where visibility becomes really difficult, because if you're just going about your life and people are seeing you in the gender that you identify as, then you might not want to draw any attention to that.

Tara Laursen: 25:09

Yeah, that's right, even though the question of visibility can be a little bit delicate for trans people. I think one of the reasons I decided that I really wanted to do this podcast with you is I think it's so important to show people that there are actually trans people everywhere. We have a large organisation, of course. There's people that we work with, there's colleagues, there's friends, there's family members. Trans people are everywhere, and I think it's so important that we actually share our experiences, because otherwise we can often feel like we're the only ones in the world.

Karenza Louis-Smith: 25:39

I think, tara, you hit a really pertinent point, don't you? Then how does trans visibility increase, you know? And how do we have conversations like we're having today, actually, you know, having, I think we talk about, you know, at Get Real? It's all about frank and fearless conversations. Let's have them, you know. Let's put the real stuff out on the table. How do we do that? There's a question I want to ask you as well. I want to talk about allyship, because I think that's one way that things can actually help to change too. How do people do it respectfully and meaningfully, so not just saying, hey, I'm an ally. You know my cousins, sisters, best friends, uncles, nieces, oh yeah, you know, we've had coffee together. How can people understand, I think, what you're really talking about here and help actually build that visibility and that awareness as well and I think awareness equals visibility too that not everyone's the same right. We're not this homogenous group like. We're a beautiful, richly diverse race of people. How do allies help this journey?

Tara Laursen: 26:40

I think a lot of it is really similar to being an ally to other communities as well, and I think it's really focusing on the verb of allyship, so not making it about someone's identity to be an ally, but more focused on what you can do as an ally.

Tara Laursen: 26:55

I think a key one is really around listening and acting as an amplifier in a way, like the way that Emily did before by bringing in that article, so referring to what people in community say, referring to their voices, rather than speaking on behalf of. Another key thing is really speaking up and asking questions so that we don't have to. We all have that person we know who might say some dubious things, and I think it can be really helpful when other people actually question some of those things rather than waiting for the person who's directly impacted to do so. There's also a lot of resources out there and we can add some of these in the show notes as well. But of course, there's questions around when you interact with people who are trans and maybe thinking about some of the questions you might want to ask and question why you want to ask those questions, especially when it comes to asking stuff like what people's real name is, or if you can see a childhood photo or some of these things that might be quite sensitive for people.

Karenza Louis-Smith: 27:49

I think that's a naivety thing, isn't it Like people are deeply curious, but I think you have to think through the impact, sometimes, of what you say. You know, don't you? I think that's the message here.

Tara Laursen: 28:01

I think so. Yeah, I think it's really thinking about why. Why is that an interesting question. How would you feel if you were being asked that question?

Emily Webb: 28:12

Tari, you have referenced some reports and studies on the lives of transgender people and gender diverse people, but there's a lot more work to be done and you know data is so important for understanding communities and planning services. At a very basic level. It's how governments plan services. Are institutions and governments listening to expert advice about how to support trans and gender diverse people in Australia? I think, from my perspective, like of viewing how things are spoken about, there seems to be a bit of trepidation or unwillingness and then the only issues you hear are from the politicians who want to get into the culture, wars and want to like, spark outrage, and it's very, very toxic. It's very damaging. But yeah, I'm curious about that because of your own experience. But also, you work in healthcare. You work in mental health services.

Tara Laursen: 29:04

Yeah. So unfortunately we don't have very good data at all and I think one of the key things that I do want to raise is that at the time of the last census, the decision was made to go against the expert advice from the ABS and indeed there were no questions around gender identity included, and I think that points well towards that stigma, because apparently it's too sensitive to ask these questions. When you're asking people about their personal life, their religion, their income, you can't ask them about their gender. Apparently that's too much, too far. So hopefully that'll change, because if we're not asking these questions, we don't actually know anything about the community. We do know a few things because a lot of important research is being done, but obviously if we don't have that macro level look at the community and the Australian population then it's much easier to dismiss the health and social needs of a community that you refuse to count or to make count.

Emily Webb: 29:56

And it allows also people who are critical of transgender people, who are like just basically discriminatory. They can just throw anything around, like oh, there's an explosion of, you know, children getting gender affirming services. There's no stats to back it up. I'm always like where's your stats, Where's your evidence? Like that's always my point, and it just allows the misinformation and disinformation to fly.

Tara Laursen: 30:23

Yeah, and I think that's really interesting parallels to be made. I remember seeing some really interesting comments based on when we no longer determined that being left-handed was a fault or an illness or whatever.

Tara Laursen: 30:37

Then all of a sudden so many more people are left-handed, because we recognize that actually some people are left-handed and it just seems so basic. But I think the fact that people have a lot more awareness of French and that is actually a thing that exists I think it's pretty obvious that that's going to mean that more people are going to reflect on this, more people are going to ask questions about it, and I think, unfortunately, we are seeing some negative impacts from some of these debates. I know, for instance, that one of the insurers that works with GPs have decided that if a GP engages in gender affirming care, then they can lose their indemnity insurance because there might be a teeny, tiny chance that someone might regret something along the way. And that's a huge impact because that impacts everyone's access. You can't really imagine an insurer going out saying, oh, you can't do this treatment for heart disease or you can't screen for this other condition. Yeah, it's really hard to imagine this happening in any other context.

Karenza Louis-Smith: 31:36

So, just going off script, I like to go rogue. There are people listening to this podcast who might be sitting here questioning who they are. It's simply, as you know, who am I and feeling that the gender I was assigned at birth is not the gender that I feel, and you've talked a lot about your experiences and how that was hard and difficult for you. But what advice would you give someone who was 18, 19 or 20, you know, in those ages when you started to begin to explore what avenues and things and you said at the start you kind of you know, I think your words were you blew it. You know you didn't get to the right place If you were to sit back. You know, even if you were lucky enough to sit in a room with your younger self, you know, all those years ago, what advice would you share?

Tara Laursen: 32:17

That's such a good question. I think the key one is really to be brave and have these frank and fearless conversations. I mean obviously, big caveat on that Sometimes people are not safe to have those. So do reflect on the situation that you're in and whether you might need to address some safety concerns first, but assuming that people are in safe environments, then do please have the conversations, talk about how you feel, talk about how you actually perceive gender, because gender is such a complex thing and we like to imagine that it exists just as this kind of static thing, but it changes hugely over time changes of a culture, there's so many things that influence it.

Tara Laursen: 32:54

So I think it's quite important for people to think about what they actually think of when they think of gender, because it can be done in so many different ways. And I think it's important that people have a bit of a an expansive approach to it and really think about what works for them, what doesn't work for them, but also, by all means, try to. You know, try some things out. You know life is for for trying things and figuring out what sticks and what about for um family and friends and carers?

Karenza Louis-Smith: 33:18

you know family and friends and carers. You know family and friends and carers of someone who's sitting in this space right now thinking I want to reach out and I want to have this conversation like it's a really big conversation. What advice would you give to family, friends, carers, kin.

Tara Laursen: 33:33

Obviously, I think it's great to ask questions, but I think it's also important to recognise that if a person might not fully know where they sit, that that can be extremely confronting as well at the same time. So I think it's about finding that right pace in asking the questions and maybe tapping into some of the resources that exist. Like I know, there's a fantastic group called Transcend that works with parents of trans and gender diverse people as well.

Emily Webb: 33:58

So, Tara, we ask this of all our guests guests and it's about how you take care of your own mental health.

Tara Laursen: 34:05

Yeah, for me, it's absolutely about exercise. I really need to move to stay well, and it's something I've always known from quite an early age is that I just can't get feelings out of my system if I don't move. That's really the way that I process things. I need to also be connected and to spend time with others and, you know, have those conversations and adventures, because I really rely on being active. That's also why it irks me so much when there's those questions around sport and whether we should be allowed to do these things at all, because it is such a crucial part of wellbeing.

Emily Webb: 34:38

Tara, this has been an amazing conversation and, yeah, I just want to thank you so much for sharing your living experience. It's powerful and it's going to be really helpful.

Tara Laursen: 34:48

Thank you, it's been such a delight.

ermha365 team: 34:54

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ermha365 team: 34:57

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ermha365 team: 35:03

You've been listening to Get Real talking mental health and disability, brought to you by the team at Irma 365. Get Real is produced and presented by Emily Webb, with Corenza Louis-Smith and special guests. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next time.