Anya Leonard:   0:13
Hello, This is Anya Leonard, founder of Classical Wisdom. You're Listening to Classical Wisdom Speaks, a podcast dedicated to bringing ancient wisdom to modern minds. Today's episode is with James S Romm. James H. Ottaway Jr. Professor of  Classics and director of the classical studies program at Bard College in New York. He is also the author of Dying Every Day: Seneca at the Court of Nero.  

Anya Leonard:   0:58
Before we get started, a quick reminder that this podcast is made possible by Classical Wisdom Members. If you wish to become a member and support the classics, please go to classical wisdom dot com and click Start here. In today's episode, we talk about Seneca the younger, the Roman stoic philosopher in the first century AD.  He served the Emperor Nero for 10 years until he met his death at the hands of the Emperor Nero. Seneca's philosophy really focused around death. His ideas were that death is always present over shadowing us, and thus we should always practice forward and rehearse for every day. This is partially due to the political climate. Emperors could decide life and death for its citizens, so consequently, one must be prepared for death at all times. This brings us to today's question for Professor Romm. For those of us who are not under oppressive governments, which I hope includes all of our listeners, how does learning and thinking about death all the time help us in life? 

Dr. James S. Romm:   2:08
There is, of course, some differences in, our relationship to death, since we don't encounter it nearly as often as Seneca and his class did. But on the other hand, we have developed a culture in which it's possible to avoid any contact with death. It's all done in hospice or in hospitals, away from our view and out of our consciousness. So Seneca thought that was a grave mistake, that we have to rehearse for death, and we have to become accustomed to it in order not to fear it. The more we estrange ourselves from it, the more fearful it becomes. Or fearsome, I should say. And of course, Ah, um, that's very much true for our culture.

Anya Leonard:   3:06
I would even go further and say that in our current culture were separated from all of the extremes. We're separated from death, from birth.. we're separated from all sorts of sicknesses. I mean, I didn't experience a single birth until I gave birth. But you can't imagine any society historically where that would have been case.

Dr. James S. Romm:   3:30
Yes, that's right. And it's interesting you pair those two rites of passage because for Seneca they were very much a pair. We, uh, should be. You should be treating deaths as a natural part of life just the same way we treat birth, marriage, coming of age, all the other rites of passage.

Anya Leonard:   3:56
And so what does Seneca feel about suicide, that the non natural time of entering death? I suppose?

Dr. James S. Romm:   4:06
so Seneca has a lot of thoughts about suicide. They range widely, and he's is an advocate of rational suicide. That is the choice to end one's life when circumstances make life no longer worth living. Not the kind of suicide we think of today, in the state of distress or mental illness, but a considered choice that, for whatever reason, illness, pain, dementia, when the remainder of life simply doesn't have enough to offer. He advocated that, and he in a sense, he practiced it himself because when the emperor demanded his suicide, he willingly took his own life.  

Dr. James S. Romm:   5:03
And it's important to recognize again the political context that suicide had in his day. It was often a means of political execution. Members of the aristocracy were asked to commit suicide rather than force the emperor to have them executed. And by doing that, they got to preserve their estate and handed it on to their heirs rather than have it confiscated. So there was sort of a reward for taking one's own life, essentially admitting guilt in whatever to whatever charge one was accused of and sparing the emperor the trouble of having you killed. So his concern with suicide again is part of his political culture may be less relevant to us today, but still important. We have these right to death movements in various states. Some states have actually passed laws permitting the right to die, the  right to suicide if one has reached a terminal stage of illness in which there is no hope of recovery, and more states are debating that. It is still a pressing issue for us today,

Anya Leonard:   6:24
And so do you think that Seneca was A good stoic? I mean, did he practice what he preached?

Dr. James S. Romm:   6:31
Well, that's a very good question. And I examine that question at length in my book, Dying Every Day.  I don't have firm conclusions because when we look at his writings and see him as a tireless advocate for stoic values, an eloquent,  almost an impassioned, de Otay of the life of Reason and of virtuous action, the sources of happiness for the stoic. But in his own political career, he was forced to collude in all kinds of atrocities, including Nero's murder of his mother and his brother and his wife. So you have this paradox, this almost schizophrenic life that doesn't lend itself to easy analysis.  I finally came down by saying that one has to come to one's own conclusions. One can see Seneca's character as half full or half empty.

Anya Leonard:   7:50
Yeah, and Seneca was clearly ambitious and concerned for himself. Well, it seems like that, and some of those other tenants, Stoicism pushes against. His actions seemed to be very contrary to some of his writings.

Dr. James S. Romm:   8:10
Yes, and he was very wealthy man, as you say. And he took some grief from his contemporaries for owning a huge fortune while espousing Stoic values. Still, a system didn't preach against what else? It wasn't evil. Money was simply indifferent. It didn't conduce either to happiness or unhappiness, but in some of his writings, Seneca does adopt it. Kind of a Dickens sort of philosophy that one should divest oneself of wealth. It's just going to make you unhappy, but at the same time, he was getting fabulously rich. So there's the paradox, and it's really hard to know what to make of it.

Anya Leonard:   9:04
I suppose in a sort of ironic way Nero ordering him to commit suicide was a good thing for Seneca because he ended up fulfilling a bit more his role of being a stoic. In the final acts and in a nice old age, he still was able to live his philosophy, his death obsessed, stoicism.

Dr. James S. Romm:   9:30
And one could say the same about Socrates. You know, Socrates claimed it was a good thing for him to die at age 70 and he achieved an immortality that he never would have had if he just died in his house as an older man. Seneca was about 65 already feeling ill and worn out. He'd add lifelong respiratory illness, perhaps tuberculosis, and might not have lived much longer. So yes, this was a a glorious way for him to go.

Anya Leonard:   10:10
Yeah, I often wondered that would Socrates have been so quite contrary in court if he was a younger man and had a bit more to lose?

Dr. James S. Romm:   10:23
Yes. Exactly. Right.

Anya Leonard:   10:27
Classical wisdom members can enjoy the full podcast with Professor James S Romm on ClassicalWisdom. com, all listeners confined Professor Romm's book Dying Every Day: Senate at the court Nero on Amazon.com Thank you again for listening to Classical Wisdom Speaks.