08 - Interpreneurship with Miki Stricker-Talbot

This is The 311 podcast. I'm your host, Paul Bellows. This is a show about the people that make digital government work. If you'd like to find out more, visit yellowpencil.com.

Today, my guest is Miki Stricker-Talbot. Miki is responsible for intrepreneurship and strategic design in the citizen services branch at the city of Edmonton.

You may ask what intrepreneurship is and my answer is keep listening. That's what we'll be talking about. In addition to organizational design, kindness, privilege, and generally how to make change from within an organization rather than just top down.

I know that our podcast theme is on digital government and the people who are making change. And while digital isn't part of Miki's purpose in the organization, I think that the mindset she brings to making change is what's necessary for any digital worker who is feeling frustrated and like they can't do their work in the right way. Like they don't have the right supports. Miki's work has been recognized globally and Apolitical recently named her as one of the 100 most influential people in government.  If you've come across, Miki's work on UNICORNS, that's an acronym that I'll let her unpack, then perhaps you've come to understand why the way she thinks and works is so important to pay attention to.

In particular with digital work, government is on the same talent hunt as the rest of the startup and software world but without the salaries and profit sharing that the private sector can sometimes offer. I think it's more and more important to think about the kind of organizations that we're creating to operate our public trusts. We need government to be the first place that passionate and talented people think about spending some or all of their career.

And if we have more people like Miki in positions of influence, then maybe we can make that come true. I loved having this conversation. Miki is a colleague, but also a friend. We had to edit out a few moments where we were just having fun, but I think you'll like what we left in. I hope you enjoy the conversation.

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Thanks so much for listening. If you want to learn more about Miki's work and in particular, find her now infamous blog post on unicorns or read about unlearning, we'll have links in the show notes.

Government is about all of us. Let's keep making a better world. This has been the 311 podcast and I'm your host, Paul Bellows.

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Links
Unicorns: https://apolitical.co/solution-articles/en/saving-unicorns-making-government-less-lonely-for-the-trailblazers

Unlearning: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxBLlDOKfZY

This is a show about the people that make digital public service work. If you'd like to find out more, visit the311podcast.com

We're going to keep having conversations like this. If you've got ideas of guests we should speak to, send us an email to info@the311podcast.com

Transcript

[00:00:00] Paul: This is The 311 podcast. I'm your host, Paul Bellows. This is a show about the people that make digital government work. If you'd like to find out more, visit yellowpencil.com. 

Today, my guest is Miki Stricker-Talbot. Miki is responsible for intrepreneurship and strategic design in the citizen services branch at the city of Edmonton.

You may ask what intrepreneurship is and my answer is keep listening. That's what we'll be talking about. In addition to organizational design, kindness, privilege, and generally how to make change from within an organization rather than just top down. 

I know that our podcast theme is on digital government and the people who are making change. And while digital isn't part of Miki's purpose in the organization, I think that the mindset she brings to making change is what's necessary for any digital worker who is feeling frustrated and like they can't do their work in the right way. Like they don't have the right supports. Miki's work has been recognized globally and Apolitical recently named her as one of the 100 most influential people in government. If you've come across, Miki's work on UNICORNS, that's an acronym that I'll let her unpack, then perhaps you've come to understand why the way she thinks and works is so important to pay attention to. 

In particular with digital work, government is on the same talent hunt as the rest of the startup and software world but without the salaries and profit sharing that the private sector can sometimes offer. I think it's more and more important to think about the kind of organizations that we're creating to operate our public trusts. We need government to be the first place that passionate and talented people think about spending some or all of their career.

And if we have more people like Miki in positions of influence, then maybe we can make that come true. I loved having this conversation. Miki is a colleague, but also a friend. We had to edit out a few moments where we were just having fun, but I think you'll like what we left in. I hope you enjoy the conversation.

Here's Miki Stricker-Talbot.

Hi, Miki Stricker-Talbot. Welcome to the podcast. Can you introduce yourself in your unique role. 

[00:02:03] Miki: Hello, my name is Miki Stricker-Talbot. My pronouns are she and her. I am a settler on Treaty 6 lands in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. Because you can't see me, I'm a white woman with wavy brown hair, black- rimmed glasses and bright red lipstick. So that's a bit about me.

So my title, I work for the city of Edmonton as an intrepreneur. And intrepreneurs are people who work within a large organization to help facilitate change from within. The concept of an intrepreneur is more well known in the corporate sphere, for helping for-profit organizations pivot to find innovation, but to do it in a good way. But as far as I know, I was the first intrepreneur within government in Canada with that as my title. I work in the realm of social policy and social innovation and unlearning to help make the public good better.

[00:03:04] Paul: Okay. So you're an intrepreneur and that's a rare thing in government. So how does one actually become something that didn't really exist before? What's the career path to being what you are? 

[00:03:15] Miki: Windy, um, so. Way back a million years ago, I went to university thinking I was going to be a journalist. And decided to take a, rather than a journalism degree, I decided to take a communications and culture, bachelors, because I wanted a more well-rounded education. But when I was in school, I realized through volunteering and, um, well by happen stance, that I actually was really good at event planning and event management. I mean, I dabbled for a while as a, as a freelancer for the Calgary Herald, but when I was in university. I was also the vice-president of student life for the students union. And in that role, I discovered that I was actually pretty good at event management and production. And it was through that role together with friends from the Loose Noose theater company, I brought the Calgary Fringe Festival into existence. 

And from there again, learning that, "Oh, I love this Fringe thing" and I loved the theater, I then became the director of the Edmonton Fringe Theater Festival and ran that for five years. Then moved to Toronto, worked for the city of Toronto as the programming supervisor producing their major festivals and events. And it was there that I realized that, "Oh yeah, I love this event production. But I'm also a public servant." That I love the idea of serving the public. 

 And then a variety of push and pull factors brought us back to Alberta. And I got a job at the city of Edmonton. First on a temporary contract with their civic events office. And then with, uh, A more permanent role with an office called responsible hospitality Edmonton. Which at the time, was set up to help foster a safe and vibrant nighttime economy. Um so the other nine to five the 9:00 PM to 5:00 AM. And in that role, I traversed the gamut from operations to programs to policy. And saw clearly the link between how good policy can inform healthy operations on the ground. And how in order to create good policy, you need to fundamentally understand how operations work. And so by traversing that spectrum, I then discovered that I really liked the policy realm. And then, had the opportunity to to join an office at the City of Edmonton, called strategic design. Our office worked in the realm of social policy so that we could a better place for people who call Edmonton home.

[00:05:58] Paul: So basically, as you made your way through the Plinko game of your career, you've always leaned towards social good. And now you've got a full-time role supporting other change makers.

[00:06:08] Miki: The thing about intrepreneurs is that it can be a job title but it doesn't necessarily need to be a job title. Like, I've met intrepreneurs around the world who are acting in intrepreneurial ways, but they can operate anywhere within government and they can be intrepreneurs on the front line or in the policy realm. You don't need the job title to be an intrepreneur. And so truthfully, I've been an intrepreneur for a long time, even without the job title. Because anyone can be, I'm just lucky enough to have it on my business card.

[00:06:41] Paul: Okay. I love this. Your job is to seek out change makers and support them in making change from within. So in your role, how do you identify change makers? How do you recognize these people?

[00:06:56] Miki: I love that question. So, the pre COVID times, it was easier to spot each other. Because I would listen and watch. I would listen for people who used interesting language, or spoke in a way that may not be typical for the way that language is usually used in government. I also kept an eye out for people who wore bright colors or interesting jewelry. I kept an eye out for people who were taking notes in interesting ways maybe with, um, doodles or images, or charts. Things that were out of the ordinary. 

And I also, I also kept an eye out for people who just were really excited about whatever it was that they were talking about. Because in government, we don't often get excited about things. We don't often feel immense senses of joy and excitement. And when you find someone else who has that about what they are trying to do, oh man, it's amazing. So that's, that's how I found people. But people also also found me and reached out to me because of the practices and ways of being that I tried to bring into the organization as well. Um, small things, big things. Things like in meetings that I host, I always play music in advance. Um, things like in facilitations that I led in person, I would have fun stickers rather than just dots when people have to vote on something. I would always have candy on the table. It's silly things. It's silly, small things. But what they communicate can be so much bigger. And when you're able to do that, and show up full hearted and open hearted and vulnerable, and trusting, then other folks meet me there too.

[00:08:44] Paul: You've become internet famous about the name you gave change makers. In startup language, a unicorn is a company worth a billion dollars. But you've used the same word to describe something that in my mind is much more valuable. Can you talk a little bit about how this came to be? 

[00:08:59] Miki: Okay. So back in, back in 2016, the city of Edmonton was not a very fun place to work, as our fellow Edmontonians found out in 2017 through a series of investigative reports in The Journal. The city of Edmonton was facing really painful work culture. It was a toxic environment with lots of bullying, harassment, discrimination. As someone who was there, I can say it was pretty awful at the time.

 My colleague, Barb Ursulac and I, she was, uh, she's since retired, but, um, for a number of years was my mentor. She, and I were talking one day and we had noticed a pattern that these brilliant, beautiful-hearted souls who were trying to make change from within the organization, kept hitting wall after wall, after wall. And oftentimes at great personal toll. And they would eventually hit the wall hard enough, they would say, forget it I'm out of here. And they would just leave. And more than often than not, they were women. And more than often than not, they were persons of color. And it was breaking our heart. Barb and I would call these dear souls "unicorns" because change agents within government were thought to be mythical. And we often joked that unicorns were so far out in front that they would hit the wall with their horn. So Barb and I one day we were lamenting the loss of another unicorn, and, um, I asked Barb what we needed in this organization to be successful. And half jokingly Barb said what we need is a support group. And I said, "hold on, you're onto something." And so the next day we sent out an email to like 17 people in the organization. People from across the organization, who we knew were trying to make change and kept hitting the wall. And we invited them to a, just an open lunchtime discussion, no minutes, no agenda, just come and let's gather. But we knew pretty quickly that we were onto something because the invitation list doubled to 29 people by the end of the day.

And so, since that initial meeting, our network has grown remarkably. Within the city of Edmonton, we now have more than 200 people on our distribution list. Many of those folks come regularly to our sessions. 

And what's remarkable to me is that, the small idea that we had, has set an example, has become a model for other government change agents around the world. I was speaking one day to Naomi Mahaffy who is with Alberta Social Innovation Connect. And I was telling her about unicorns and she said, "would you be willing to write, a blog post about your group?" And I said, "yeah, sure." Now, Naomi, I mean full, full hats off to her. She saw something that I didn't see. She saw the potential for what we had created in Edmonton to be able to inspire others, to do something similar. And so I wrote a blog post. I didn't think much of it. It got published. And it went, as someone who reached out to me a couple of weeks later, "government viral" across Canada. That's the phrase that they used. And it inspired unicorns groups to pop up across Canada, within government agencies. And then, an organization called Apolitical, which is an online learning platform from public servants that operates out of the UK. They saw all the online chatter that was happening about the unicorns and reached out to me wondering if they could republish the article. And I said, "yeah, sure." And so then it went global. And now there are unicorn chapters, self running, self operated, throughout the whole world within government. And it's just incredible to me that, that small seed of an idea that we had to support our fellow public servants, is now helping public servants everywhere. Because when we're able to show up authentically and with love with each other, then we're able to extend that to our fellow citizens.

[00:13:06] Paul: So basically you found the most creative and collaborative people in the organization and turned them into a squad?

[00:13:12] Miki: Oh, yes. Yes we did. So the unicorns stand for the United Network of Innovative Change-agents Organizing to Realize New Strategies. UNICORNS.

[00:13:20] Paul: Okay, this has grown beyond just the city of Edmonton and a popular blog post. Where else in the world are you discovering squads of unicorns?

[00:13:28] Miki: Uh, well, I know that, um, friends at the government of New Brunswick have been running with the idea and have their own chapter and still have chapter meetings. I know that friends at the city of Amsterdam have started a chapter and are running with it. Um, I know that there are chapters in Ottawa. We've been experimenting with a national unicorns group with people coming together. 

I don't know. I think, I think it has. Impact, if not the least of which is that people know that they're no longer alone. Because being a change agent within government, can be so lonely. And even just knowing that there are others out there, like you, that can often be enough fuel to help you keep going.

[00:14:13] Paul: Part of what you're talking about is community building, creating systems of cultural support inside of organizations, communities that can introduce new ideas into organizations. But how do you start to move from a position of community building to a position of change agent within the larger organization? 

[00:14:31] Miki: Haha. One of the things that I also do, um, is that I'm an unlearning facilitator with the School for Social Entrepreneurs Canada. And the School for Social Entrepreneurs Canada helps individuals and organizations unlearn things that they need to unlearn in order to make space for new ideas to emerge. So the concept of unlearning was first introduced in the 1970s, um, by, um, a person named Alvin Toffler, wrote a book called Future Shock. Which at the time was really seminal and he predicted a whole bunch of things that came true. But one of the things that he wrote about was how the illiterate of the 21st century will not be those who cannot read and write. But those are not learn, unlearn, and relearn. And so for me, what so much of this is about is understanding the water that we are all swimming in. The way that we make sense of the world, it's what we've been inheriting and what we have inherited. And so of course, we're going to make sense of the world in certain ways. Depending on our social locations, um, where we were born, where we grew up, our different privileges. So many of us who are white, have grown up with westernized ways of making sense of the world. 

And so unlearning is the process by which we can start to question some of the ways in which we do make sense of the world. Which in many ways probably don't serve us or humanity anymore. We've certainly, in the time of COVID, witnessed the questioning of so many things that we have taken to be true. 

And not really a clear path on how we begin to disentangle ourselves from those learnings that have gotten us into this mess in the first place. And so unlearning as a process by which we can become curious about how we make sense of the world. Our biases, our shadows. And then once we're able to do that and to question those, we can then make space to relearn things in a new way.

[00:16:36] Paul: I love the unlearning concept, taking something apart and building something new with the same materials. And this is why it's interesting because there's this concept of the innovation team within large organizations, you know, you hire innovative people, you lock them away in some sort of garage or silo from the rest of the organizational culture. And then you, you wait for that innovation to somehow leech back into the rest of the team. Um, but it doesn't ever really happen that way. You know, those people either get worn out and leave or, or nothing changes. And the organization declares the experiment to failure. And I think it's gotten to the point where innovation itself has become a tired word and people started to shut down when they hear it.

But I love the word innovation because etymologically, it's got the concept of renewal buried within it. It's about remaking what already exists, but using the same parts you already had. You know, renewal. So unlearning is really what organizations are seeking when they bring in innovation teams to try and change their current cultural behaviors and attitudes. Right? 

[00:17:38] Miki: Absolutely because unlearning and relearning allows us to ask different questions. And when we're able to ask different questions and ask better questions, we can then see new uses for the resources that are right in front of us.

[00:17:51] Paul: It's funny that as much as I just said that innovation teams can't fix an organization, I also assume it's true that change always comes from some group of people and not always from leadership or the top of the organization. So what are some of the lessons you've learned as a change agent trying to affect that change from the middle of the organization, not from top down? 

[00:18:11] Miki: Hmm. Well, I'll admit I've learned some of these lessons the hard way. So if I can, if I can be a warning and an example, that's great.

Well, I think some of the things that I have figured out and continue to figure out, is that in change work, oftentimes the best way to approach it is with intense curiosity. 

Because oftentimes , as change agents, we can often see the problem and see it really clearly. But obviously it's stuck because it's working for someone in some way. Like, there's something about the way that it's currently operating that it's good enough or it's serving somebody. And so, one of the ways that I am learning and relearning to get around this is to just be really curious. Like to ask questions about what really is going on here. And not coming in and thinking that I know everything cause I don't. Right, like I do not know the context. I do not know the history. And you know, as a privileged white woman, my biases get in the way. And so I try to be curious and humble. And not assume that I know answer cause I really very well may not. It's by engaging in conversation and in dialogue and asking the questions. That's how things move. That's how things change. It's relational and not transactional. It's about how we connect as humans.

[00:19:41] Paul: Oh yeah I love that. It speaks to the fact that our organizations are also social systems and we need to think socially in how we approach change. It's so much easier to hear new ideas from someone you trust you know from someone who believes who you believe has your best interests in mind. Um that's not something that happens accidentally or at least not consistently in a scale. 

[00:20:01] Miki: Yeah. And imagine what would happen if we could do that? Like doesn't that just fill you with awe?

[00:20:06] Paul: Okay. Well, I'm in awe of what you've achieved but I imagine it hasn't always been sunshine and smooth sailing. When we're trying to find new ways of thinking and working, we make mistakes things go wrong. And so this is all happening in the context of government where mistakes can be politicized and they can hurt your career.

 People have a well earned fear of mistakes in government. So how do you work so that you can take risks and fail and keep moving forward? 

[00:20:31] Miki: One of the hardest things for us to do as public servants, and I count myself in this, is to admit when we're wrong. And so many times we're just wrong. I'm just wrong. And it takes courage to be able to admit when you are and I'll admit , there have been times in my career when I haven't been. And so in knowing that now, and knowing how I would like to be in the world, and the way of being that I'd like to show up as. Things I know now, I did not know then. And so I am aspiring to be gentle and generous with myself. The same gentleness and generosity that I hope to extend to others I also work to extend to myself.

[00:21:12] Paul: Belonging to a community that is both gentle and generous. Sounds great to me. 

[00:21:16] Miki: Haha. Welcome. Welcome.

[00:21:19] Paul: Okay. So none of us come to any new ideas in a vacuum. Great ideas tend to come from others that went before. So as you think back on your career and those that influenced you, who are some of the people who've been inspiring for you in the past? 

[00:21:33] Miki: How long of a list do you want? Haha.

Oh, Paul There are so many, I mean, hmm.

Yeah, I'll start hyper locally with my, former director, Ian Howatt and the way that he just is in the world. He is the leader that I aspire to be.

More broadly, the work of organizations like Skill Society is incredible. And the way that they are working to shift larger social systems in the city is inspiring.

More broadly, there are people like Thea Snow from the Center of Public Impact who are doing incredible work to help shift the way that government operates and makes sense of itself. Um, I've learned so much from people like Alex Ryan with MaRS in Toronto about how to do social innovation work. And, uh, I need to also speak with deep admiration for consultants, like Naheyawin here in Edmonton. So Jacqueline Cardinal and Hunter Cardinal who have been so generous in sharing their wisdom, their deep knowledge with me. That is a small handful of people that have been inspiring me recently. 

[00:22:49] Paul: Well you're on the list of people who inspire me. I love your approach to change and the humanity you bring to the job. 

[00:22:56] Miki: Awww Paul. Well, thanks. It's kind of you to say my friend.

[00:23:00] Paul: I wanna come back to the job for a few minutes and ask about what it is that you're working on that you are most proud of right now. I mean, we're speaking online to each other in the middle of a pandemic. The world isn't operating in the way we're used to, and everything feels like it's an uphill battle. 

[00:23:16] Miki: Yeah.

[00:23:17] Paul: So what's bringing you energy right now? 

[00:23:18] Miki: We didn't talk about recover at all. The realm that I work in primarily is around policies, strategies, strategic design. And lots of that, although it's rooted in the here and now, it's about creating better futures. And so a lot of it like this, this is the long game that we're working in. But throughout the pandemic, our team was called in several times to help with emergency research. Which I didn't even know was a thing, but having to do like research and e-scans and reaching out to other cities and jurisdictions to find out how they were responding in an emergency to fill in the blank. And so that emergency research of like having to turn around reports within 24, 48 hours to be fed up to leadership, man, that was, that was a new realm for me.

But for one of the projects that I've been on, which is called recover, um, addressing Edmonton's urban wellness. We're entering our fourth year and the way that we approached the work was through a social innovation approach. And that was the process that guided our journey for the first two years working in community with community. Learning and doing deep ethnographic research with folks who've been on the margins, including those who are living rough or street involved or experiencing homelessness. And taking, taking the research to develop prototypes and working to test them and figure out what might work, what might have larger systems impact. 

And then in year three, so last year, working with consultants we now have a framework for understanding what urban wellbeing means. And it's about a deep sense of connection. Connection to land. Connection to community. Connection to self, to the human spirit. 

And those are the things that we learned from people who are experiencing homelessness. It really has shifted the way that we are making sense of what people who are marginalized historically, what they actually need. And so how do we shift our systems and the services that we provide, that they might imbue a sense of respect and a sense of dignity as opposed to a sense of shame? And so these are the deeper questions that we're wrestling with right now. And in the time of COVID, the discoveries that we've made seem even more important. About how we as a city can heal from this time. Because everyone in Edmonton right now is experiencing grief in some form. For some people it's a lot deeper than others and for different reasons. But everyone in this past year has experienced grief. And grief when unattended to turns into trauma. And it's more difficult to come back from trauma. 

So. The questions that we're asking ourselves now is, "well, what does this mean for us as a city? How do we find wellbeing within ourselves, within our communities? Within our relationships and within our city?" So, these are the questions that we're embarking on.

[00:26:37] Paul: Well, that sounds not just like energizing work. It actually sounds like important work. Work that gets remembered.

I knew I would enjoy this conversation, but I'm coming out of this inspired by what's possible when government doesn't just look at its role as a pusher of paper and an issuer of fines, but as an organization that plays an essential role in a community. Now I wanna go back. You talked about wellness and it reminds me of the ongoing conversation that happens in healthcare about aiming for wellness, rather than just treating disease or symptoms of disease. But when it comes to a city or a community how do you think about wellness? What kind of a community is well? 

[00:27:15] Miki: Hmm.

The massive existential question to end the Podcast with. 

Well, what it means to be well is very personal. Right? The way that you'd define wellness for yourself is going to be very different than the way that I define wellness for myself. And so it's about creating the conditions in which all of us can find our way and our own path to wellness. Because wellness is a circular pursuit and it's not a linear one.

It's not like wealth and fame and fortune is the key to wellbeing. Right? We know this. Um, but it's about answering for ourselves what it means to be well and what it means to be well in community with community. But I mean this is tricky business, right? We don't want to come in and be the white saviors and any of that. And so it's about how do we engage in deeper conversation? How do we ask ourselves the hard questions? How do we face up to the questions of racism and white supremacy that exists with within us as white people? And I don't, I don't have any easy answers. I got, I got lots of questions. I can ask really good questions. I don't know that I have any answers.

[00:28:27] Paul: Well, I don't have those answers either, but what a great way to spend the better part of an hour diving into the questions. Miki Stricker-Talbot, thank you for being a guest on our podcast. And thanks for sharing your worldview, your generosity, and your work with us. This has been great.

[00:28:42] Miki: Thanks for having me here, Paul. This was a good way to spend an hour.

Thank you.

[00:28:47] Paul: Thanks so much for listening. If you want to learn more about Miki's work and in particular, find her now infamous blog post on unicorns or read about unlearning, we'll have links in the show notes. I'd like to thank my colleagues at Yellow Pencil who work with me on this podcast.

Frederick Brummer is our show producer. He edits the show and created the music and intro. Ahmed Khalil is our creative director and provides oversight and insight for each episode. We're gonna keep having conversations like this. Thanks for tuning in. If you've got ideas for guests we should speak to, send us an email to podcast@yellowpencil.com.

Government is about all of us. Let's keep making a better world. This has been the 311 podcast and I'm your host, Paul Bellows.