Lessons in Orthopaedic Leadership: An AOA Podcast
Lessons in Orthopaedic Leadership: An AOA Podcast
Embracing Allyship: Driving Diversity and Inclusion in Orthopaedic Surgery
AOA Emerging Leader, Aaron Brandt, MD, sits down with Professor Bethany Adams (Villanova) and Mimi Peterson, MD (MGH), to discuss the power of allyship and privilege in orthopaedic surgery. This discussion highlights the importance of DEI forums in fostering challenging yet vital conversations, supported by a three-year curriculum addressing allyship, DEI burnout, and the business aspects of DEI. Effective allyship is a continuous journey.
Explore strategies to drive DEI initiatives with limited resources, leveraging ERGs, collective allyship, and tools like reminder cards to turn intentions into actions. Learn how leaders can create environments where allyship thrives through shared learning and support.
Good evening and welcome to another episode of the AOA podcast. My name is Aaron Brandt, pediatric orthopedic surgeon and currently serving as a DEI liaison, and I'm joined by two awesome guests to discuss DEI and our initiatives, with a specific focus on allyship today, and we're going to revisit last year's meeting which was allyship in action. So I've got Professor Bethany Adams she is Associate Director of Marketing Strategy at Villanova in the Human Resources Department for Graduate Programs and has an extensive experience in business in the business world and brought that to our DEI forum this last session and we're happy to have her on board for the coming sessions as well, coming symposium as well. And then I have Mimi Peterson, currently a fellow at MGH but also serving as a DEI liaison and was key in developing and helping put on this last symposium on DEI. So welcome to both of you. I'm excited that we can get together and kind of reignite some of the energy that we had after the meeting and just kind of revisit it for all the folks at home. So welcome.
Speaker 3:Yeah, thanks for having us.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, let me start with Mimi, if you don't mind. Just as far as our goals with this DEI symposia, I think that's one thing that can be looked at in different ways, like we're emphasizing it too much or we're not emphasizing it enough. I really like our current structure. Can you tell us kind of about the plan and the cycle that we're on?
Speaker 4:Yeah, of course.
Speaker 4:So I think in general, you know, we want the DEI forum to be a place where people can talk about things that might not necessarily fit in other places.
Speaker 4:We want people to have the ability to have, you know, uncomfortable conversations, but also in a way that's more directed and focused. So one of the tasks that I was charged with, along with Sean, who was, you know, one of the other prior DEI liaisons, was to kind of come up with a curriculum, and part of that curriculum was like a three-year cycle of what we were going to look at. So we really wanted to focus, you know, first on allyship I think you know one, because, you know, while we may be better at recognizing the diversity deficiencies within orthopedic surgery, we're not necessarily better at, you know, addressing equity and getting better at being allies. So that was kind of the first year. The second year that we're looking forward to is, you know, DEI burnout, and then the third year is kind of really practical reasons like the business side of DEI. So that's kind of just the three-year plan, you know, looking forward.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I love it. It just kind of gives a little structure to it and in an organization like the AOA we really do want to have some kind of format that we can build on and have purpose right, bethany and there's no question that this is not specific to orthopedic surgery we like that you bring kind of that global picture to us. How did the session go for you?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I thought it was absolutely wonderful. I will say I very much appreciated all the enthusiasm in the room for the topic. You know, I think that diversity, equity and inclusion is something that every business struggles with and says how do we do this better? Because every business that's doing business right wants to do better in that area and so recognizing some of the shortcomings maybe in orthopedic surgery and where you all have room to grow but then just the enthusiasm and how many people really said I need to do this better, I need to bring a colleague into this room next year and we need to have more people in this space. I thought that was really reassuring and it really made you know the work that I do often sometimes can fall on deaf ears. People want to hear it and then they're like, yeah, okay, I hope somebody else does that, and it felt like everyone in that space really wanted to be a part of the change for your group and I thought that was pretty powerful.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean it always is sitting in those sessions. You just kind of it's often attracts like-minded people and that's our biggest onus is to expand that group. And I thought allyship was a great topic. Can you, can we talk a little bit more about just that word ally and what we're trying to get across with that? What makes a good ally?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I will say, I think, mimi, just some kudos to you from the planning of it. I think starting with allyship is like a nice opening for thinking about curriculum in this space, because it offers this mindset of we all have a part to play in this work and I think that a lot of people think like DEI work that's for somebody else. It can't be. It has to be for all of us. It has, you know, inclusion means all of us, and so, really, allyship is all about, you know, being willing to be uncomfortable with where you are and to advocate for other people who you know might need advocating for. It's not this like one-time act, it's not this, you know, I have to do everything perfect. It's really just about being open to learning and growing and being willing to step outside of your comfort zone, and any person who's willing to say I'll learn, I'll grow, I'll make myself better in this space, they can be an ally, and I think that's sort of where we started for this session.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I love that. One of the things that I really learned from the meeting too, and in the discussions, was that you don't have to be a perfect person or have a perfect understanding of. You know diversity, equity, inclusion or even you know any of these terms. You just have to be someone who's open-minded and willing to advocate for someone.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I would even say advocate. That is. It's so active. And some people are just like, why, like, why should I do this? I would say, just being aware I think we work with so many different people and that's been one of my biggest onus is just paying attention, because my background, who I am, is very different from everybody else. That doesn't change. I still have to be able to teach and to support and to work with so many different people. So it's still everybody is doing these things and has to has to be conscious and I love that be comfortable with being uncomfortable. It's no one wants to do it, but it's, it's our job. I mean in business and all these different realms, like that's the nature of it, that's how you grow, that's how you kind of succeed.
Speaker 3:I think, too, too, that you know, we often think that, like it, allyship is this, it's something giant, it's something big. I have to do these like giant acts? Nope, Sometimes it's just showing up right, and oftentimes it's those little things, over and over again, that can provide the most monumental change. And so you know to your point, aaron, like we all come from very different perspectives and points of view. That's the whole purpose, right, is you know? Getting more diversity in the space so that we can actually build better teams and have better ideas and more innovation. And so it's using our own unique perspective to advocate in a way that's powerful.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I think one thing you both did excellent and, bethany, kudos to you for just kind of the process. We touched on some trickier topics during the symposia and diversity is a buzzword right now period. That's something that can put people off. But privilege we really hit on privilege and I was amazed at how receptive people were to not only the topic but also to engaging and discussing it and being open to it. How have you done this to kind of at your institution and kind of with other programs, like what can people do to kind of look at this and not make it such a taboo thing?
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know it's interesting. There are certain words that you say them and people immediately go oh, I think I want to check out of this conversation. Right, and privilege is one of those, and I think that's because it's framed in a way that provides this sort of negative connotation, which, in the space of DEI recognizing and understanding your privilege is actually a really powerful thing, because it just shows you that you have certain advantages that you can leverage. Right, it's how each and every one of us has gotten to where we are. So how do we help take those advantages and provide them for other people who might not have the same? And every single human has some sort of advantage or privilege in some space, and it's about finding the ways that you have a unique influence to leverage those things.
Speaker 3:I think one of the things that was pretty powerful was we went through that list of, like, potential privileges that you might have, and there's some really unique ones, right, like we tend to think of, like oh, you're white, you're male, like these are the ones that come to mind, but it's also just you know, how do you show up at events, like, do people assume certain things about you when you show up? Are you confident that if you raise an idea that it'll be listened to, like there are some things that people might not even think of as like, oh yeah, I don't have to question that, but other people might. And so, just recognizing some of those things, we spent a little bit of time, you know, in smaller groups talking about those and I think that was an important like it sort of opened up the conversation for a lot of people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, maybe you kind of pulled together the stats and we kind of looked, looked through that a little bit. Just can you tell me a little bit about what we took from that as far as the makeup of the session and kind of some of the answers, if you will?
Speaker 4:I don't know if you have that with you, or just yeah for sure you know kind of just the practice background of mostly the individuals that attended are from academic institutions, but we also had people who are in independent practices, hospital, employed, in the military, and we specifically wanted to know what people, what challenges, patient or, like you know, people faced in terms of what prevents us from maybe acting as an ally.
Speaker 4:So one of the things that came up was, you know, implicit biases that you know scored pretty high, and I think part of that is to, you know, not necessarily recognizing what we don't know about ourselves, both our strengths and you know kind of our blind spots and weaknesses.
Speaker 4:And then the other thing that I found interesting in kind of our survey was that you know kind of our blind spots and weaknesses. And then the other thing that I found interesting in kind of our survey was that, you know I asked basically a yes or no question Do people feel like there's a barrier that inhibits my ability to act as an ally? And the surprising thing to that was actually most people said no. So 57% of people who attended you know this forum felt like there really is no barrier. You know 43% is attended. You know this forum felt like there really is no barrier. You know, you know 43% is still, you know, not an insignificant number. But we have people who have a desire and we have people that don't have those barriers and yet you know what's holding us back or what can we do to maximize, you know, that desire.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I thought that was actually my favorite kind of chart that we kind of that you pulled together was the majority said I don't have any barriers, so it just goes back to what can I do and what's what is blocking me from doing it, and I thought that was really telling as well. Other things that obviously come up day to day are kind of just time and money and all these different types of things and, bethany, you touched on that. Like it's, those are all factors in all realms and that doesn't have to be a big, grandiose thing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know, one of the things that I very much appreciated so Dr Maria Bagstrom, who was a part of our conversation and our fireside chat during this. She talked about some of the ways that she's been able to advocate and kind of get funds for some of these efforts. She works as a professor of medicine at Washington University and I think that a lot of her experience was really. It really resonated with many of the people in the room. Given that she's sort of in the work right now as well, she knows how hard it can be to get funding for some of these things and she really talked about, you know, building teams and getting lots of people to rally around certain ideas. That can be really monumental. Even just what we did in that space, right, Like having a DEI forum at a leadership event like this, can be really powerful, because there were so many people in that room that people were like what is that going on? At 7.30 in the morning right now. Why is?
Speaker 3:everyone loving this event. Well, that just creates the same kind of momentum. So I think that that can be really helpful In business. We see a lot of organizations that don't have DEI budgets like they do this work through the people who want to champion this work internally, and oftentimes it takes very small steps, like putting together some ERG groups and having employees kind of rally together and then they're like oh, there's momentum over there. Maybe we should throw some budget at that and find ways that they can advocate and also that then leverages new innovation. So when we see good things coming out of those groups, then you get more funding.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I think that's one thing that I feel like the future. We don't really know kind of the nature of kind of some of these organizations and how we're going to be able to promote them, but those are great like quick little tools that you just brought up and we do have some resources that we are putting together and we'll probably have it posted with this if we can and can organize that together as well. So, everyone, we try not to leave you hanging with just another conversation and have some actual things, some clickable items for you. One other thing I wanted to kind of touch on from the meeting that I think was important is also not just allyship, but also the people being supported and kind of how do we create this community or this group effort in this realm? I was wondering if any of you, if either of you, could comment on that.
Speaker 3:So you know, it's interesting when we think about it. I don't think that allyship can't be an individual act, right Like it's not, it can. It can be, I should rephrase I can do something individually to be an ally, but allyship really takes hold when it's done in communities, people who want to gather together. One of the things that we did in this meeting was sort of like the second table discussion. If I'm kind of putting it together in my mind was around the actions that we can take, and so we spent some time talking about as a group, like what things should we be working on, each individually, but then as a whole of the people who were in that room, what things can we do to leverage our privilege, to leverage our experiences in order to create momentum for this movement and this work?
Speaker 3:And I think that that was actually sort of maybe the best part of it was hearing everyone talk about like I could do this or I've never even thought that I could do this, and putting those ideas together and then building on each other's ideas. I think was a really powerful place, and I know we created some cards for everyone to kind of mail out, just like as this reminder, because how often do we go to events or we go through experiences where we're like I have all this intention, but is that intention actually going to translate into action? And that's what we really wanted was to remind people of the intentions that they put forth over the summer so that they could then put them into action in the work that they do, and sometimes it just takes that reminder.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I actually really love that idea of doing the cards, Bethany, Like thank you so much for thinking of that, because I think it helps kind of reignite and remind us of, you know, those conversations and the energy that we had, and it's something that we can, you know, carry forward and almost relive too. And yeah, going back to what you were saying you know, Aaron, your question about like community, you know, I think having these conversations like this at, you know, like the AOA meeting, for example, it brings like leaders in orthopedic surgery together so they can have these conversations and then hopefully that can kind of trickle down to you know, their various respective institutions. You know, I think that there's other organizations out there, there's ways to connect online, but certainly the best way to really find support in these is to find, you know, like-minded individuals that can also be your ally in learning how to be an ally. So it's, you know, all kind of positive feedback.
Speaker 2:Oh, I love that flip. I love that flip that you just did because it is. It's almost in that way. There's an odd privilege to working in this realm and in the same end, allies have trouble making action out of fear of doing something wrong right. So there's almost that ad. There's something advantageous about that is like I'm not gonna lie there's sometimes I know I can trap people. Or when they say something wrong, I'm like, oh, I got them, like like now they're uncomfortable and I have the upper hand. So I love that kind of flip, like we, we have to also be ready to help the allies and help them feel kind of get through that and learn. I love that.
Speaker 3:I will just as a point to, I'll add you know I've worked with a lot of people in the DEI world, like in the business DEI world, and there is a lot of people who get and you know this goes to your curriculum for next year of they get very burned out on this work, right, because it can feel sometimes like there's not momentum happening, there's not change.
Speaker 3:Change is very slow in this space and it's not always linear either, like sometimes you go around in a few circles before things move forward. And I think that people need the community of like-minded individuals who want to continue doing this work so that when they start to feel the burnout, someone else can help reignite them. Right to that, because it can be really isolating too if you're trying to do this work in a vacuum and you don't feel like you have people around you who are supporting the efforts that you want to do. Because and this is true in whether it's orthopedic surgery or whether it's big business because the focus always goes back to, well, like the business or the surgery right, or the research that you're doing, instead of the inclusion work as a piece, and so having a community to help remind you that, like no, this is the core. This is the good stuff that we're doing that can move everything else forward is really important for the people who want to make this work happen.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 4:One other thing, too, about you know, community and having this community is, you know, this is something that I want to be open to everyone, you know, and that something that I want to be open to everyone you know, and that's not necessarily people who self-identify as being interested in diversity initiatives, Like anyone who has any willingness to, you know, want to participate. You know, I want them to feel like they're welcome, to come into the space and, you know, be a part of these conversations, whether they want to share or just, you know, just want to listen. And you know the ultimate goal is not to increase diversity for the sake of increasing diversity, right, Like the ultimate goal is to, you know, make the orthopedic surgery field like the best possible field and for us to be the best possible. You know, surgeons, and part of that, too, is just serving the community and being reflective of the communities that we take care of. So all voices, you know, should have a table, not necessarily just, you know, people who might need some allyship.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Love that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think not to bring up the privilege word again, but I think that's one of the things that I've loved.
Speaker 2:I just was able to listen to our chairman here at NYU, dr Zuckerman, give an address about his career and one of the biggest things he emphasized was this community aspect, and that, to me, is the biggest thing to recognize is our role.
Speaker 2:No matter what level you are at, we have privilege, we have a pretty cool job and position, and there are people trying to get to where we are and so just being aware and advocating and that that is what you can do talk about a nice structured way like a actionable thing, and a structured thing is if you're in that room and you, there's an opportunity to advocate. There it is, and it doesn't have to be in front of them, it doesn't have to be anything like that. But, um, I think the fear of doing something wrong is we all have it and I think that's what I took from it most and I just really try to emphasize most because it's there's. I found it very powerful when I do have someone who does not look or come from a background like me identify and pull me along. It's a game changer, it truly is.
Speaker 3:Yeah, aaron, you just hit on something that I think is really important, like in the allyship space, but also just in the inclusion space as well, and that's just awareness and just like being willing to listen. In some of the organizations that I've worked with in the past, some of the most powerful change that they have seen has come from so a lot of companies will do ERGs, so employee resource groups right, and they'll have these employee resource groups for different groups Maybe it's like parents or the black community in that organization and they'll have senior leadership sponsor those ERGs, and some of the best movement I've seen is when a senior leader who's not a part of the ERG sponsors an ERG and just shows up at the meetings and just listens and just by listening, right. So if you're not a parent, I'm not a parent. So I'll use that as an example.
Speaker 3:If I'm not a parent, it's really hard for me to know the challenges of parents in the space that I sit. How could I possibly know and understand the challenges that they face or the things that they're dealing with if those aren't the things that I personally deal with? And so just by showing up and sitting in the space, I become more aware of challenges that I might never have ever considered, aware of challenges that I might never have ever considered. And all of a sudden I go, oh well, maybe we could do this different and that would change the whole game in this way for this group. And so having someone in senior leadership or someone who sits in a position of power just be open to listening and becoming more aware can be really powerful in building and creating change and momentum in this kind of work.
Speaker 2:Love it. Yeah, thank you. Thank you for that. Yeah, I think that's huge. Just going off of that, as we kind of wrap things up, are there any things that actionable tips that we took from the session or any favorites that you guys had? I've got mine, so I've already got one in my head, but anything that you remember, just so we can leave them with something active.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I remember, you know one of the participants had mentioned you know it's just something small, but it was like a sticker on someone's water bottle that supported this organization that you know uplifts a certain, you know, community of people.
Speaker 4:You know that's such a small act and you know that, while it's not a big act of allyship, but it's a powerful act of allyship because, one, you know you're making a statement and then, two, you're also, you know, inviting yourself to have, you know, have conversations with people that might want to seek you out and talk about those kinds of things. So it can be as small as that. And then another you know, example that came out was, you know, inviting a grand round speaker who you know might not look like the rest of your practice. So they don't come to necessarily talk about diversity or equity or inclusion, but they come to talk about what their specific research is on. You know that can be a very big statement and you know also very powerful in and of itself. So you know, on both ends of the spectrum, you know you can have actions that are, you know, very explicit but don't have to be necessarily super, I don't know, in your face, I guess.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love that. Yeah, so, mimi, if anybody has Dr Peterson as a grand round speaker, she does not want to talk about it.
Speaker 3:So I feel like my example is going to be a downer, but then I'm going to bring, I'm going to close, I'm going to bring it back up, I promise. But one of my it wasn't necessarily my favorite moment in the session, but it ended with like a moment that I loved. I got a question during it during the session you guys might remember this that someone was like well, what if I work in a state where diversity is illegal and we can't do any of this work and it's illegal to do this work? And my answer to that is always because I get that question sometimes in conversations is inclusion will never be illegal, right, like it's just not, and like you still have to better your business and you still have to support the people who are a part of the work and your employees and your staff and all of the people who are coming after you, and that's inclusion and so that work will never be illegal and so, finding the way to best support all of your people, it will always work Well.
Speaker 3:So the person who asked that question came up to me after the session and they said that answer inclusion will never be illegal is my new power line when I go back and they were like I'm going to use it all the time and anyone who tries to, you know, take down this work and this momentum.
Speaker 3:I'm going to use it in that way because I loved how you framed it and that, to me, was this really positive moment of like. So often I think we get stuck in challenges, like someone's going to throw a challenge at you oh, this is illegal in my state. Maybe not that grand of a challenge, but there's little things that just come up and just being, you know, like having some momentum, some being armed with some ways that you can think differently or get someone else to think differently, can help change the momentum for this work, and so that was actually one of my favorite things at the end of the session that came out of a moment that I was like oh, I hate this question, but I'm glad it gave you momentum for later.
Speaker 2:I love that line. That looks like the shirt that I want.
Speaker 2:Inclusion will never be illegal I mean, it might be a good phrase to have on a shirt right now, yeah, and I almost don't want to even follow that because I love that closure. But I think the last thing that I took and we kind of hit on multiple times during the session was just asking. So not only just listening, but if you have a question, if you want to know how someone wants to be addressed, if you aren't sure how someone took an interaction or a situation, ask. We are all people and that's part of this job and it's something that I'm working on every day and I thought that that was I don't remember who brought that up and mentioned it, but I think that's just a nice, easy, one-on-one thing that you can do to build relationships and this interdependence that you, if you will. So awesome. I love this. Thank you for joining me tonight and revisiting this is exactly what I thought would happen. I'd get energized again and hopefully people who listen to it will also feel that. Any kind of closing thoughts on the session.
Speaker 4:Just to follow up on your thing about asking like you know, ultimately, you know, allyship is a practice and I think it's okay to make mistakes along the way and to learn from them, and I think it's okay to like extend grace to, like you know, ourselves or to other people, as we kind of all go through this journey.
Speaker 4:So I love that point about asking Erin. I think it's so important and you know it involves a degree of vulnerability to like oh you know, I'm not maybe very knowledgeable in this area, can you enlighten me? So love that, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I would just say I'm really excited for the next session. I think that understanding how challenging this work can be and how it can personally impact, there's sort of a DEI burnout that people and society and cultures are sort of like all right, we've been talking about that for a while, can we stop? But there's also an individual DEI burnout. When you do work that's hard, when you allow yourself to be uncomfortable and say I don't know this or can someone help me learn this, that can burn you out too. And so I think it'll be really powerful for a lot of people who have been working and want to move this work forward in your industry to kind of share in that and kind of learn from that in our next session.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, it gets brought up every time we do a symposia like this the burnout side, so to have an entire session based on it. We hear you, we feel you and we're excited to bring that to everybody. So I'm looking forward to that at the next AOA meeting. So, again, we are going to pull the postcards and try to get those sent out to the people who have them. We do want those to be little reminders to everybody. And, yeah, look out for the next session that will involve the good Bethany Adams and Dr Peterson as well. But thank you both for your time again. This was great and we will see you soon.
Speaker 4:Thank you, Thanks Erin.