ASK US ANYTHING: Understanding the Sibling Experience in Neurodiverse Families

Hello Brave Friends! This is an Ask Us Anything episode, #249, where you, the listener, get to write in and ask us anything.

In this episode, we’re responding to the question:

“Hi there, I guess I am looking for more info on siblings in a special needs family. Can you shed light or talk about how they battle their own resentment, depression, anxiety or PTSD? THX.”

In this conversation, Jessica Patay, Dr. Zoe Shaw, and Susanna Peace Lovell come together to explore a deeply important and often under-discussed topic in caregiving families: the sibling experience.

The hosts unpack the complex emotional and psychological dynamics that can arise when one child in the family has additional needs. They discuss how siblings may experience a wide range of emotions—including love, pride, resentment, protectiveness, anxiety, and even feelings of invisibility—and why it’s so important to create space for all of those feelings without judgment.

Jessica, Zoe, and Susanna also explore the different roles siblings can take on within the family system, and how these roles can shape identity, relationships, and mental health over time. They speak directly to the question of resentment, depression, and anxiety, emphasizing that these responses are valid and deserve attention, support, and care.

The conversation offers practical strategies for parents, including the importance of validating siblings’ experiences, being mindful of how praise is given, and creating intentional one-on-one time and support systems. The hosts also highlight the value of therapy and open communication in helping families navigate these dynamics with compassion and honesty.

Ultimately, this episode is a reminder that sibling relationships are deeply meaningful—and that supporting siblings is an essential part of caring for the whole family.

Find more information about Licensed Psychotherapist, Dr. Zoe Shaw here. 

Find Dr. Zoe’s book, Stronger in the Difficult Places: Heal Your Relationship with Yourself by Untangling Complex Shame

Brave Together is the podcast for We are Brave Together, a not-for-profit organization based in the USA. The heart of We Are Brave Together is to strengthen, encourage, inspire and validate all moms of children with disabilities and other needs in their unique journeys. 

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Feel free to contact Jessica Patay via email: jpatay@wearebravetogether.org 

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Transcript

Jessica Patay 0:00

Welcome to Brave Together Podcast, an empowering resource for the parents of children with disabilities, neurodivergence, and all unique needs.

Dr. Zoe Shaw 0:14

And when we have negative feelings about people we love, it feels bad. But actually, when we can talk about it, we can be healthier. It's when we hold it in because we feel so bad about it that it gets worse. And it's important to talk to your kids about that too.

Speaker 2 0:38

Hi, Bravies. This is Jessica Petti, a mom, storyteller, advocate, and the founder and CEO of We Are Brave Together, whose mission is to preserve and protect the mental health of caregiving moms everywhere. And I'm joined by two fantastic fellow Brave Mom co-hosts to help answer your questions.

Speaker 3 0:57

Hi, I'm Susanna Peace Lavelle. I'm an author, a certified life coach and soul care coach, and an advocate for the health and wellness of disability families everywhere.

Dr. Zoe Shaw 1:07

Hi, I'm Dr. Zoe, a licensed psychotherapist, writer, speaker, author, and complex change expert.

Speaker 2 1:13

We are gathered here to share our experiences, share our wisdom, and answer your questions. Have a caregiving question? Find the link in the show notes to leave us your message.

Speaker 3 1:25

May you feel seen and heard and not alone.

Speaker 2 1:28

Ask us anything.

Speaker 1 2:01

I love, I love, I love today.

Speaker 3 2:04

I woke up thinking I get to see my lovelies.

Speaker 2 2:07

I know, I know it is. It always is a bright spot in the day, in the week that we get to have this time together.

unknown 2:14

Yeah.

Speaker 2 2:15

I wish we were neighbors. I know.

Speaker 2:18

I know.

Speaker 2 2:19

Well, how are you? Let's do a check-in. Like, how is everybody doing? How are your kiddos?

Speaker 1 2:24

Yeah, I'm doing really well. I got to experience our my first We Are Brave Together retreat. And it was so life-giving. It was just the best experience to be able to connect with other moms. And so for anyone listening out there, I encourage you if you can attend one. It was just really wonderful. And otherwise, I'm doing good. Kiddos are doing great. Sully has been telling me her favorite thing is I'm maturing mom when she tells me about how she's doing at Latham Center and um how how well she is. And she's also very right now, she's just getting very intentional about like what does my adulthood look like? How are we going to plan this? So it's wonderful to just hear her in this space because a year or so ago we were in a completely different space. So yeah, my kid. What about you guys? Wow.

Speaker 2 3:22

Well, that's so good to hear that about Sully.

Speaker 3:25

So good.

Speaker 3 3:27

I I feel so um, I got the chills when you were sharing that. And I I just have to, it's it's such a great reminder. Like if we take a snapshot shot of what is happening today, we have no idea, good, bad, whatever, different, whatever it's gonna be in two months, in three months, 12 months from now. I feel like that's um it's so beautiful because then we can just get it can alleviate, you know, whatever anxiety we might be feeling like right now in this moment. Um, but I would like to also you know share something happy and and life-giving to use your your terminology, Zoe. I myself see, you know, personally and professionally and emotionally and psychologically, all of the above. I'm okay right now in the moment. I feel steady. I always wish certain things can be shifted or changed in in my life, and I work towards those things. Um, and one of the things that I am like just has been taken off of my plate is that I'm not having this crazy overwhelm and anxiety around what's next for Arizona, my daughter, who is a 12th grader and graduating from high school this school year. We have placement for her for next year, which is this phenomenal program, a gap year program at UCLA called uh the UCLA Pathway Program. And it is all about supportive, um, independent living skills courses are um on campus and they uh range from time management to career development to health, nutrition. Wow. There are also electives, and it was a process, like the application process was pretty intense. Uh, and then they the next step was an interview, and then if you did okay there or you did well there, then they uh invited you in for a shadow day. So so after all of that, I'm you know, sitting on pins and needles. I mean, there were other options for post-high school, right? Because as mom's high, we have like seven options that we're understanding and trying to figure out what's gonna work out. But she got in, and the most important part of this entire scenario is that she's so excited to go. She's so excited. She's like, mommy, college students are so much nicer than high school students, you know, and it's like I'm like, I know, because they want to be there, and I can I can imagine her Zoe saying something like Sully next year, like I'm really maturing. I I feel like that would come out of her mouth too. Yeah, anyway. So right now I just feel a little bit of an exhale, like, whoo, okay. So we I mean we still have to get you know to the end zone with this particular chapter, and then I need to figure out what to do with Arizona for three and a half months. She will not be in programming, but that's okay. We'll figure it out. Does she play on campus? They do have a residential aspect of their program, apartments and so much support for the students there. Uh, and they have a commuter program. There are more students in residential, but she will start off as a commuter student, which I think is the best next stepping stone. And then from there she can transition. So so we'll see. I I'm taking the win. And um, yeah, I mean it's it's it's like I feel really I feel really proud of her, but I also feel really proud of myself. So I'm just gonna say that.

Speaker 2 7:31

Yes, yes, absolutely.

Speaker 1 7:33

This is your victory too. Yes, it is, and I'm glad you said that because I'm always cognizant to congratulate parents when things like this happen because we put in so much work. I mean, our children do as well, they do, but we got them there, we got them to the point where they can even put in the work and do the things, and so we deserve that. So, congratulations. Congratulations.

Speaker 3 8:01

No, thank you. When I was when you know, I told Arizona, well, we got the email, and she was like, Well, I was expecting that, and I was like, Okay, I mean, good for her. That's fantastic. I was expecting that. I was like, I know, and and also it's because of me. Right.

Speaker 1 8:22

She doesn't know the odds, so that's good.

Speaker 2 8:24

Jessica, your turn. Hi, hi, hi, hi. Um, I'm good. I'm good. I feel very content right now. I don't feel swamped. I've I felt swamped with work for so, so many months. And right now I feel like there's a little bit more calm. There's lots of projects and things going. And, you know, we've announced that we're doing our very first couple's retreat this fall, thanks to Seleno Therapeutics sponsoring that. And also, I just want to mention that they also sponsored the PWS mom's retreat that we had in Florida, where Zoe was our retreat speaker and she did phenomenal. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. And at the end, Zoe, you're getting so many questions, and that doesn't always happen, but you're such an expert. And just listening to Zoe calmed all of our nervous systems. Like we were all regulated, just listening to her because she's so incredibly calm and she takes everyone in. And I don't know, it was it was incredible. So I just thank you, Zoe, so much. And um we want to thank Seleno for sponsoring that retreat, and we want to thank Seleno for sponsoring our upcoming couples retreat. And so if anyone's listening and you're curious and you're interested, make sure you're on our email list so that you see all the information. Um, space will be very limited. We'll be selling seven spots, we'll have two scholarship spots, and that means per couple. So seven couples plus two spots for scholarships, and then um the the leadership team for the weekend. So we'll have a total of 12 couples and it will be in Scottsdale, Arizona. So um please spread the word and uh just remember that you deserve that break. And when do we ever take a weekend to focus on our relationships? Ah, not enough. Definitely not enough. So um, so yeah, I'm excited about all those things. My kids are great. Ryan is still in between programs, um, but we have something in the works where it would be a one-on-one program, and it's through a group called ignitefutures.org. Hopefully, by the time we do our next recording together, he will have his program started. We shall see. But he's he's hanging in there. I don't know why he's not bored out of his mind. He has the best attitude. Like, I feel bad for him, I feel bad for caregivers. Like, it's a lot of very mellow activity, you know. So I just um grateful everyone who's helping out with some extra hours because I'm still working and I'm still juggling. So yeah, it's good. Everyone's good. Good. So today we're talking about the siblings in uh in our families uh in this community. And I maybe we should just always have an episode on the siblings each season, just like we've decided to have an episode on relationships and marriage, partnership each season, uh, whether it's a story episode, an expert, and ask us anything, something. You know, we we need to just keep the conversation going and keep um reminding parents, even though it's I know parents are overwhelmed, but we we really do need to remind ourselves and our our listeners like to really pay attention to the siblings. It's hard. It's hard. We know the the answer to this is very obvious. Like, why do siblings get overlooked? And it's just it's just because there's so much time, energy, and attention and focus that goes to the one or even two kids in the family with high support needs, whether it's medical, behavioral, psychological, academic, you know, neurodivergence, like all of the above, if there's one or two kids in the family that takes up all the time, energy, and attention, then the siblings feel very much off to the side.

Speaker 12:31

Yeah.

Speaker 2 12:32

I remember um after Ryan was born, and I think he was he might have been one or two, and it was the first time we went to this parenting expert. What was her name? I don't know. We drove far, we heard great things about her. I feel like her name was Sandy. I don't know. And Chris and I were there. We didn't bring Luke, but Luke was just kind of active, vocal toddler, preschooler. We were just having issues, you know. I I look back on it now so differently, but that at the time I was just very focused on the behavior. Now I would really approach it very differently. But my point is what this parenting expert said was, you know, it was the three of you. It was the three of you together before Ryan was born. And then Ryan was born, and now Luke feels way, way over here. Yeah. And that broke my heart. Yeah. And it's true. I mean, I get I get it. It's true. That is what happened, especially in the early years. We had so many specialist appointments, Ryan's first few years of life, plus all the therapies, OTPT speech. Right. Just we were, you know, when Luke went to preschool the January after six months after six, seven months after Ryan was born. I was like, hallelujah. Like he has something fun to look forward to outside of the house.

Speaker 3 13:58

Yeah.

Speaker 2 13:59

Yeah.

Speaker 3 14:00

And then Jessica, remind us how many years are apart between all three of your so Luke and Ryan are two and a half years apart, and Ryan and Kate are two years apart. Got it.

unknown 14:15

Okay.

Speaker 2 14:16

Yeah. Right. Yeah. And it's a very different experience when you're the firstborn or the third.

Speaker 3 14:22

Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 2 14:23

Or and also really, I mean, gender too. Her being a girl, the responsibility and the caretaking and the nurturing is very heavy, even though she's the third child.

Speaker 1 14:35

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I remember. So my middle three are two years apart. My oldest son is two years older than my next son. And then Sage is two years older than Sully. So I so Sage was two when Sully was born. And I remember how hard it was for him. First, the first hardest thing was he lost me because I was in the NICU. I was in the hospital. I went into the hospital for a couple of days. And then it's weeks before I even come home. And so that was hard for him. And then mom comes home finally after weeks. And, you know, she's all encompassed by this baby. And I remember I would, I tried so hard to nurse. I was so determined to nurse this baby who couldn't nurse. And I would pump and then I would, you know, like feed her for it seemed like hours. And then I would have to pump again for and I remember he came up to me once and he's like, please don't pump. Because I was spending so much time just pumping and trying to nurse, you know, feed this baby. And Sage developed a stutter, which he kind of still has to this day. And I always wonder if it was because of the trauma that he experienced after, you know, bringing Sully home and all of the things, you know, a mama that was just kind of checked out and trying to take care of this baby. And he was just two, he was just a baby himself. And yeah, I mean, even just that beginning, you know, experience. I mean, it's all he remembers at this time. But that experience for a two-year-old was a lot. It was a lot to handle.

Speaker 2 16:14

It is a lot. And when you said pump, I was like, oh yeah. I was pumping around the clock in the hospital because I had all I had, I mean, I all I had was time on my hands, right? I lived in the hospital for four weeks with Ryan. I went home for two nights out of the that whole month.

Speaker 16:29

Yeah.

Speaker 2 16:30

Makes me so sad to think about poor Luke. And that's why I was like, give Ryan a feeding tube. I've got to get home to Luke. You know, Chris had to go back to work. Just let me go home. And I got home and I think I pumped for two more weeks, and I might have had enough milk for eight weeks. And I asked my pediatrician, like, I I can't do this and the appointments and take care of Luke. Like, I just something has to give. And you know, he's like, Ryan got six or eight weeks of breast milk, that's great. Like, don't don't worry about it. Like, yeah, you know, you have to do what's best for your family. Yeah, I could see Luke coming in. I could into the bathroom.

unknown 17:10

Don't pop.

Speaker 2 17:11

Please don't pop.

Speaker 3 17:12

Baby. Yeah. So much I'm feeling so much compassion for you two. I mean, I, as most of our regular listeners know, I have one daughter who does not have any siblings. I might have not made it if she had a sibling. No, to be honest, like I'm being completely 100% real right now. Um and I have so much compassion for you both because I'm noticing, you know, you're trying so you're still trying so hard. You're working so hard. Zoe, you're like, yeah, but I need to do this because this is what's like you you just feel like you have to do all of the things so perfectly. And the way that right, it's just so much right input from the external, right? Making you feel like guilty or ashamed. So wow, yeah.

Speaker 1 18:06

No, that's that's a lot. And I'm glad that you said that, Jessica. I don't know that I had anybody give me permission to not to stop. And I I I pumped, I think I pumped for 10 months, and finally it was it was awful. And finally, I was trying to make it to a year, which I just I could not do it. And I even felt guilty about that because I had nursed the other ones to a year, you know, and I wish someone had given me the permission. So if there's a mom out there and you're doing something like killing yourself, trying to pump, we give you the permission to put that down. Put that down. There are really great formulas out there, and your baby will be fine. And it's okay if that's one thing that you can put down.

Speaker 2 18:50

Yeah. You know what? And I did the same with Kate. I think I lasted with her maybe three months max. Once I started weaning, my milk production really, really dropped. So I was like, Well, I guess I'm done. But my mother-in-law, God bless her, she was like, you know, she's like, I had twins and they both were raised on formula and they're look how brilliant they are, you know, Chris and his brother, Dr. Lawyer. Um, yeah. So she gave me permission. She's like, do what is best for you. What is best like Susanna always says, what is best for you is best for the universe. And so, you know, it's best for your family. And I I just I couldn't, I couldn't juggle it with, you know, two other kids, all of Ryan's appointments, trying to give everybody what they need and nurse.

Speaker 3 19:41

But I think it's so interesting to talk about, you know, siblings from the very beginning. Because oftentimes, you know, in my practice um as a coach and you know, just even being in this beautiful community and connection circle leader for the Los Angeles moms through We Are Brave Together, I just hear so many stories about how really the siblings, maybe they don't, it's it's sort of like an invisible thing up until like maybe later in life where there will be some emotional episodes or actually, you know, what we now know is really anxiety and depression and just holding so much in. I love how when we can we can start reflecting back to what things were like in the beginning, so we can start, you know, unraveling, you know, how this is just a long like an ongoing long-term process accumulation of so much trauma and everything else, you know. Maybe you guys can share a little bit about the sibling experience from the earlier ages, sort of showing up later. I love how you mentioned the possibility of potentially that could have been where the stutter came from. Who knows? We'll never know, right? For sure.

Speaker 21:02

Yeah.

Speaker 3 21:02

But I think this would be so helpful for moms in all stages of life who have multiple children.

Speaker 2 21:08

I just think about poor Luke went through so much in that when he was one, we moved in with Chris's parents because the apartment we were renting was going on the market and we didn't we didn't want to buy it. So we moved in with Chris's parents. So that's one move. Then six months later, we moved into an apartment again because we couldn't, we were looking for a house and we just kept getting out bids. So we're like, forget it. Our consolation prize will be, you know, to be a few blocks from the beach. Moved again. He was one and a half. And then when he was two, we moved into our house that we're still in. Three moves in one calendar year. And then Ryan was born six months later. And then a year later, we lost my mom, and then a few years later we lost Chris's mom, who he was very close to. So I just think like that's a lot. In a very short amount of time. Very short amount of time. Like I said, if I could go back, I would do things differently. But you just don't know. You you know what you know at the time, and you you know, all of that has repercussions. All of that is hard for a little toddler, preschool or elementary school age kid to deal with. It's a lot. It's a lot. And then of course just the ongoing with with Ryan. Although I would say Ryan's behaviors probably didn't start till he was more like I mean, after five or seven.

unknown 22:40

Yeah.

Speaker 1 22:41

Eight, something like that. I feel like it was about that time too, like somewhere between seven and eight. And I think, well, I know there's a moment because kids think that whatever they're born into is just normal, right? It is what it is. It's like the the air they breathe. But there become there comes a point when they realize, oh, other families aren't like this. Oh, my sibling is different. And I think that's the point when another level of confusion, maybe another level of emotional issues can develop when they start to realize our family is different and what is I know the other thing that I saw, and this was not with the older boys, but because now Sully and my youngest daughter are seven years apart. But because they're both girls, there's this kind of thing that was more almost competitive than was with the boys. And the boys were older, so of course they were beyond her. But for Sully, when my daughter, who's seven years younger, started to not just catch up with her, but surpass her, that was a whole other sibling dynamic that was difficult for both of them. I think my daughter, the youngest daughter, Siggy, had developed kind of a level of pride and kind of wielded it over Sully. And Sully definitely had resentment and jealousy. And so there were dynamics there that I noticed because of the discrepancy in what they were able to do. It affected their relationship.

Speaker 2 24:25

That's so interesting because Ryan is competitive with Kate. Not so much Luke. Interesting.

Speaker 24:33

Wow. Yeah.

Speaker 2 24:34

And not everything all the time. I see it a little bit less than I used to. But he was definitely like, well, what is Kate doing? Or did Kate get to go out to eat, of course, food? But like, why does Kate get to stay up later than me? It's like, well, you're you're just tired. It's not that she gets to stay, but he would never say anything about Luke.

Speaker 1 24:56

And maybe it was because she was the younger one. Maybe it's and maybe it's more about that with Sully too. It's like, why is the younger one getting older privileges than I am, essentially? Yeah. Or ability to do things. Yeah. How was it with Ryan when Kate started driving? Oh.

Speaker 2 25:13

He, you know what? Ryan is never asked to drive. He's never asked for a phone. He never asked to go to college. Like it's really interesting how he doesn't complain that he doesn't have a phone or that he doesn't drive. Like he never even he never even asked about it.

Speaker 1 25:32

Wow, that's a huge difference between Sully has a phone. She had got I get got her a phone because of the same thing, but she was very, very almost over like hyper attuned to what Siggy's doing, and I need to be able to do it too. And is Siggy gonna drive? Because I want to be able to do that. And is Siggy going to go to college? Because I want to go to she's very much like I want to make sure I can do all the same things. Yeah.

unknown 25:57

Yeah.

Speaker 3 25:58

Do you think has that shifted now that Sully is sort of off, you know, doing her program?

Speaker 1 26:07

A little bit, but Sully still calls and wants to know what Siggy's doing. But what was interesting is that in the time Sully's been at Latham Center for a year now, over a year. It was a year in November. And in that time, Siggy has grown and surpassed her. And so when she saw her last, she's like, Wow, you've gotten big. You know, you've like grown up and you're taller than I am. And I just she wasn't, I didn't get a sense of resentment about it, but just like a kind of wow, this is really different. Now she's even, you know, taller than I am. Um, but there's still a little bit when she calls home, she wants to know what is she doing and why is she doing this? And so yeah.

Speaker 2 26:51

I would love for us to dive into the heart of what we really wanted to talk about. And because sometimes it's so invisible with the siblings, um, they feel invisible anyway. A lot of times we, you know, that is what's been reported. We see that in articles, research, we know that anecdotally, and we know that when we talk to parents, when they talk to their siblings, of course, this is what we're hearing. But sometimes they are really good at hiding depression and anxiety in PTSD because they feel like they have to be so perfect, they can't possibly have any needs. They don't want to stress out their parents. They see how stressed out we are, so they can't bring up anything. And I know that's definitely been the case in our family. And the only thing I'm grateful to for the COVID era was that it brought to light what Kate was shoving down and hiding because she felt like she couldn't talk about it. We on this episode just want to acknowledge that siblings are battling for real, whether it's a full clinical diagnosis or not, on some spectrum, on some level of the spectrum of depression, anxiety, and PTSD, they're experiencing it. It's just so important, I think, for us as parents, whether whether we actually see it or not, whether they talk about it or not, to bring it up. And like I used to say to Luke, because he was less vocal about his feelings and Kate was more vocal. Um, but even still with her being expressive, she was hiding, right? I would say to him, I know that you have a world of thoughts and feelings going on and dreams and ideas and things that stress you out. And even though you may not be saying it, I know you have a world of things going on and it matters. Um, I really wish I would have started saying that to Luke and Kate when they were five. So if you're out there listening and you've got younger kids, I really encourage you when your kids are young to say, I see you, you have a voice in this family. So-and-so may take up a lot of time, energy, and attention, but your needs, your heart, your feelings, your worries matter. Matter. Yeah.

Speaker 1 29:04

Yeah. That's so good. I want to geek out if I can a little bit on just psychology of sibling position and families and things like that. So when we look at a family system, there are some things that psychology has begun to understand about the way families develop and sibling position, right? What we know is that there is only so much psychological, like group psychological room for various roles in a family. And so when some one person takes one role, the rest of the family has to kind of fall into place in order to keep the system balanced. And that is kind of on the extreme when it comes to our kids because their needs are so extra. And so you're likely to get a couple of things. Now, I'm I'm really gonna geek out here because I want to talk about temperament. And we have to understand that everyone is born with a temperament. That temperament is non-changing, it's it's it's inherent in who somebody is. It starts in the womb, right? But our temperament then interacts with the environment, and that environment creates a personality. We have to kind of pay attention to number one, the temperament our children are born with, and then how we are molding it, right, into a personality over time. And so you're likely to get two, based on a temperament, two different responses from a child who has a sibling with special needs. You're gonna either get that deep internalizer who will not be the squeaky wheel, who will be quiet, right? Who will not take up space, or you may get someone who also tries to be an extreme externalizer, you'll see a lot of kind of aggression or outside behaviors, right? What you will also see is that when one person leaves the system, whether someone goes to college or someone goes to a group home, or something like that happens, the system has to realign and people actually begin to take different roles because you have to have those roles that are played in a family. And so I just want people to kind of be aware of that and then start to think about what are the roles, right, that we're all playing and how is that supporting this system that we have. And don't confuse yourself, which is so easy as a parent, with the one who is quiet and think that they're good. They're not. They're not. It's just that's the role that's been designated to them and the family based on where you guys are right now. And if you can just keep that on the forefront of your mind, the easy ones, the ones that are like, that's my easy kid, that's the one that really needs your attention because it's easier to just let them go because they're quiet and you're gonna focus on the ones that are, you know, always externalizing and think that the one that's always externalizing is the one that's not doing so well. And sometimes it's it's very much the opposite.

Speaker 3 31:53

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, because they're expressing and releasing. Yes. Yes. Wow.

Speaker 2 32:00

Thank you for that, Zoe. I would love for you, because you're a shame and complex shame expert, to talk about how resentment can really build up in siblings. And I want to say at the same time, no judgment. It is so normal. Parents have resentment. Everything that we feel, the siblings feel. So let's validate, validate, validate. But tell us like where that goes and how that can spin out.

Speaker 1 32:29

Yeah. Well, I think what you just said, Jessica, is so powerful for someone to hold on to because it makes it easy. If everything I feel my children feel, then when I feel it, I can address it with my kids too. Right? It's almost, it just makes it simple. You don't even have to really think. Just pay attention to your own experience and know that they are having the same. And so that's one thing. And then I also want to just give permission to moms out there to resent your kids sometimes, right? It's real and we feel it and we don't feel that that's okay, and then we feel shame about it, and so do your kids. And so the best thing that we can do for our children is to acknowledge that resentment, let them know that it's okay, let them know that it's also natural to feel bad about the fact that you feel bad about your sibling because you love them. And when we have negative feelings about people we love, it feels bad. But actually, when we can talk about it, we can be healthier. It's when we hold it in because we feel so bad about it that it gets worse. And it's important to talk to your kids about that too. And for moms, when you see that resentment, when you see a child maybe acting it out or even calling your sibling a terrible name, right? Or even saying something like, I wish you were never born, those kinds of things, which children can do when they get really, really upset. You want to give a balance between empathy, right? Letting your child know that the feeling was okay, but the behavior was not. And that can sometimes be hard because we immediately want to protect, you know, our child with special needs. We immediately get this fear that we're developing this monster child who's gonna be horrible to society when really they're just a kid who has a lot of feelings. And if we can have empathy verbally with your child and say, you know what, I feel that same way sometimes too. And it's still not okay to say it to your brother, but you can say it to me as much as you need to say it. You can come to me and you can talk to me about it, and it's okay for you to tell me it's just not okay to hurt him in that way. And when you validate a child's feelings like that, it's it's life-giving. That's my word, right? It's it's life-giving.

Speaker 2 34:43

Yeah, it's so, so, so important. I think it's also really important to just try to be attuned that when we do see a lot of moodiness in our kids, it's not them just trying to be difficult or stubborn or whatever language or label you want to use. It could be a stress response. Yeah. I wish somebody would have told me that. I wish somebody would have told me that.

Speaker 3 35:08

Well, and even as you know, our kiddos get older, oh well, they're just a teenager, right? Oh, well, they're just going through puberty. Oh, well, right. I feel like so often we just sort of poo-poo um, you know, what might be a sign for what's right underneath the surface. So I love, I love this idea, Zoe, about just creating the space, the safe space to have the conversation or to release. You know, again, even if Arizona's going through something, I'm like, at least write it in your journal or or say it in your audio note, something. Just release it. I know you don't want to talk to me about it. Um, but I I just I don't think we can hear that enough as parents, just as a reminder to ourselves to do the uncomfortable thing, which is like allow our children to speak their truth. And potentially, like, can we find them a therapist, right? I'm sure that has also been supported.

Speaker 2 36:14

Yeah. Family therapy is fantastic and hard. Um, I I definitely wish I would have done it when the kids were little to start really opening the communications, communication lines better than I than I did. I clearly didn't when I heard later as they were older. I thought I I thought I had the communication lines open. I thought I was validating. I thought I let them say this sucks. So I would definitely, if it's possible, accessible, financially feasible to do family therapy early on, or you do it later when they're older and you're working on repair, you know, when they're teenagers or young adults. You're you're working on repair, you're talking about it, you're you know, letting it out. So we did you guys do any type of family therapy ever?

Speaker 1 36:59

We did not. Um not as the entire family. Yeah.

Speaker 37:05

Yeah.

Speaker 1 37:05

We did some like dyads or triads with my older son um a few times. We never did entire family therapy, but I would highly suggest it.

Speaker 2 37:16

Yeah. Yeah. Me too. Me too. Of course, we did it without Ryan because it doesn't make sense, I think, to bring the sibling that you're talking about. Right. We wanna just uh mention that growing up as a sibling, it often becomes a part of their identity. They become these caring, nurturing, I'm gonna go into a helping field at young adults or adults. And and what I say is make sure that you tell the siblings you do not need to go into a helping or healing field just because you grew up in this family. Do what you feel is right for you. And if you end up there, great. But we don't expect you to. We don't expect you to become a PT, an OT, a speech therapist, a behaviorist, a BCBA, you know, a doctor, whatever, you know, a nurse. Um you get to choose. You get to choose. You know, they do grow up faster and and they do grieve a childhood that they didn't get to have. Yeah, yeah. So these are all conversation points, these are all touch points to bring up with your your kids and obviously age appropriate.

Speaker 1 38:33

And also some kids go the opposite direction, right? Especially those externalizers sometimes where they are like, I never want to have children. I would never take a chance that this could happen, and I want nothing to do with caregiving. Yeah, and that happens too. We can have both, you know, sides of the pendulum.

Speaker 2 38:52

Yeah, and it's okay. We have to let our kids know it's okay.

Speaker 3 38:56

Okay, yeah. I'm curious about what happens when because there is often praise, right? For yeah, like, oh my gosh, you're you're what a what a saint you are, or what what an angel you are. Yes, right, and so that does something to the individual, like, oh, I'm getting praise and accolade for this, so then I should even more so be this child helper, you know what I mean? Yeah, I'm curious about that, because then you're like, okay, so then I really don't want to say anything about how I'm, you know, sort of, you know, existing off of fumes either, right?

Speaker 1 39:38

So that that praise over and over for being essentially we're praising a child for having no needs, right? And when we praise children for having less needs, they develop codependency. And what they learn is if I am a certain way, I can control other people's emotions and they'll be happy with me, right? So my needs don't matter. I press those down, I create whatever they need me to be in that moment to make them happy because then that makes me feel good and validated. And so we've got to pay attention to that, that we're not just praising. Now it's fine to praise behavior, but we very much, so if we talk about shame, shame is attached to identity, right? And so when we do praise a child, we want to praise the behavior, not you are, right? You are so. We want to say that was a really nice thing that you just did, right? And then also honor the fact that they have needs. Like, I saw that you did that, and that was really nice for you to spend that time with your sister or stop doing what you were doing and do that with your sister. I wonder how that made you feel. And then if they're like, oh, you know, it made me feel good, or if they don't have anything, I would say sometimes that can make you feel good, and sometimes that can make you feel sad that you didn't do what you wanted to do. And all of a sudden you're giving them words and you're you're validating a feeling that they might have had deep down inside, and you're telling them your needs matter too, right? At the same time that you're praising them for doing a nice thing.

Speaker 2 41:12

I love this so much, Zoe. I really wish I I knew that subtle difference because of course I said to Luke and Kate, oh my gosh, you guys are so patient. Yes, you guys are so kind, you're so helpful. Like, I see, you know, how much you care. Thank you for cheering him on. Um, thank you for in you know enduring or whatever. Instead of like, wow, I really noticed that you sat and waited while Ryan asked me like 10 million questions, and I could see that you really wanted to ask me something. It's such a subtle difference, but we don't want to, yes, of course we want our kids to grow up to be beautiful, compassionate, patient, loving people with big hearts, you know, etc. But not in a way that they end up codependent. Yes, people pleasers on steroids, um, not able to identify their own needs, not able to identify their own wants.

Speaker 1 42:13

And just so you know, Jessica, I did the same thing. I did the same thing before I learned all of these things. You know, I was just a young 20-something year old woman trying to parent my kids and all the things. So yeah, we all do it. And the reason why I talk about it is because I hope I can get people a little earlier, right? Yes, can can not do the same things that we did, and then also, also, even if you had have done that, there's repair. You can go back and talk to your kids about it and say, I noticed that these are the things that I did and repair. Yeah. Wow. Wow, wow, wow, wow, wow.

Speaker 3 42:54

Well, so good. I know, and I yeah, I mean, I'm just really quickly, I'm just noticing too, you know, I have all of these nieces and nephews who who are really spectacular. And, you know, I'm realizing how how often I'm like praising them or just so grateful for them whenever they spend time with Arizona. And then now I'm feeling sad about that because that's their cousin. They they should have these experiences with their cousin. And and Arizona needs to experience their responses and reactions and feelings. It's do you know what I'm saying? I'm just noticing how we try to make things better for everyone so that everyone is comfortable, you know? And I I anyway, that's just been an aha moment for me. So I think I'm gonna that's a big takeaway for me moving forward.

Speaker 2 43:52

Yeah, because Susannah, you could say to your nieces and nephews, yeah, you know, you're the siblings that Arizona doesn't have, and someone When we come together and I see how beautifully you interact with her, it just makes me think about this or that. And you could say, we were just talking about this on the podcast. Like, you know, I it's very possible. I've said to you through the years, like, you're so patient, you're so kind, you're so generous to spend all this time and listen to Arizona and what I what I really want to say or whatever, because it's the noticing and the narration of that, right?

Speaker 3 44:26

It's the noticing and narration. And that is what I've learned so well to do with Arizona.

Speaker 2 44:33

I just want to say this was fantastic. I loved this, it's so important. Um, just a little sneak peek that Kate wrote a story and she wants to be on the podcast in season 11. I got excited. So, so excited for that. Thank you for this discussion today. It was really really it it's it's life-giving because we carry so much concern about the siblings, whether our own kids who are the siblings or the people that we know, the people in this great beautiful community. So thank you for this really rich discussion today. And certainly if there's an aspect that we didn't touch upon, because there's lots of things that we could touch upon, you know, leave us a message, send us a DM on Instagram, whatever the easiest way, and we'll address it in a future episode. Yeah, looking forward to that for sure.

Speaker 3 45:25

Yes.

Speaker 2 45:26

Thank you, ladies. Thank you, thank you. And remember, Bravies, we see you and we love you. Thanks so much for listening today. Do us a favor and leave us a review and a rating so that this podcast can get into the ears and the hearts of more and more moms. Did you know that Brave Together podcast is an extension of our nonprofit organization, We Are Brave Together? We Are Brave Together serves an international community of caregiving moms, offering support groups that are virtual and in-person, educational resources, and low-cost weekend retreats. And we have published our first anthology of caregiving stories entitled Becoming Brave Together. Heroic, extraordinary caregiving stories from mothers hidden in plain sight. It will encourage and validate every parent caregiver. To join us today, go to wearebravetogether.org. Our support and sisterhood awaits you. Brave Together Podcast is for entertainment and education purposes only. It's not a substitute for professional care and should not be relied on for medical or mental health advice. The use of any content on our podcasts, links, show notes, or on our website is to be done at your own personal risk. Please seek out a professional to assess your own medical or mental health concerns because we are all beautifully complex, and the content of this podcast is for a broad audience.