Michael Cantrell (Advertisement) 00:00:00 In more than 28 years of corrections I have used or supervised PepperBall hundreds of times. Now, as a master instructor for PepperBall, I teach others about the versatility and effectiveness of this pepper ball system. From cell extractions to disturbances on the wreck, yard pepper ball is the first option in my correctional toolbox. One of the most dangerous times for officers is during cell extractions. PepperBall allows officers to respond with the lowest level of force and still be effective and ready if the situation escalates. The responding officer controls where the projectiles are aimed, how many projectiles are launched, and how rapidly they're deployed. This allows the response to be tailored to the moment. To learn more about PeppeBall, go to www pepperball.com, or click the link below in the show's information guide. Pepper Ball is the safer option first. Hello and welcome back to the Prison Officer Podcast.
Michael Cantrell 00:00:56 Um, today I've got a special guest. I've looked forward to this for a long time. Uh, we've never met in person, but I've listened to a bunch of his podcasts. I've read his articles. Uh, I've got one of his books here in front of me. And, uh, it's Anthony Gangi. Uh, he is got 20 years in corrections. Uh, started off as an officer. He's moved up to associate administrator and, uh, really spends a lot of time trying to, to teach the people who are coming into this business and to make this business good for those that are in it. Uh, he just works really hard, and if you haven't seen his podcast, you need to go over and take a look at Tier Talk. But thank you for coming on here, Anthony.
Anthony Gangi 00:01:37 I am honored. Mike, thanks for having me. I'm, I'm so used to being on video, so I'm smiling and trying to look good, but I'm like, why? It's, it's it's audio. Yeah,
Michael Cantrell 00:01:44 This
Anthony Gangi 00:01:44 Is audio. I appreciate. Thank you for the intro. Yeah, thank you for the intro. I appreciate
Michael Cantrell 00:01:47 It. No, I'm excited. Um, we have a lot in common. We've been doing corrections for, uh, the same period of time, uh, just in different areas, but as you know, uh, corrections is corrections no matter where you're at. And, um, so what, what I always like to do is I'd like to start at the beginning. Tell me about where you grew up and, uh, how you grew up and if you had any connection to corrections or if you just fell into it or how that process happened.
Anthony Gangi 00:02:13 All right. So, let's see. <laugh>. So, yeah, like, like most Mike, I mean, I didn't, uh, it's not something I dreamed to do. I mean, that's not unique. I mean, that's a lot of people here. Uh, and by the way, so when I started in 2002, there really wasn't much information out there to research about the profession. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So, um, basically what I did was I needed a job. I was a waiter at the time, and, you know, I couldn't just live on tips <laugh>, so I was looking, yeah. I was looking for a job with benefits and a, a good salary and vacation days. I mean, that to me was, there you go. The most important thing, vacation days. So, um, I put in, for the civil service test, I put in for municipality, state police, state corrections. And the, well, actually the first spot to call me was my local municipality.
Anthony Gangi 00:03:03 At the time it was Clifton Police. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Uh, but I decided not to go that route because the Max South salary was great, but the initial salary was so low <laugh>, um, that it, I just, yeah. I, I, I, I couldn't live that way. Right. So, DOC where, where I worked, the state I work in, the initial salary was, at the time in 2002 was 40,000. That's what we started off with. Uh, the max out was wasn't that much. It was like, it, it, it was like maybe 20 something thousand, what? Maybe 60,000 if I remember. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, maybe 63,000 if I remember. But you know what, it was a salary gave me vacation, gave me benefits. So I jumped, uh, right into that. Went into the academy. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, I was, I was on that first rotation from the test. So literally I put in for it at the beginning of the year, let's say, around, uh, March or April.
Anthony Gangi 00:03:53 And I was already in the academy by December of that year. Right. So it, it, yeah, it moved. Believe it or not, that's quick movement for, uh, I dunno if a lot of people think that is, but that was <laugh>. Um, so the academy was about four months. We lived there five days. Wow. Uh, went home on the, went home on the weekends. Uh, so in my state, we're considered law enforcement. The actual title of our cos right now, our Senior Correctional Police Officers. Um, so Excellent. We do have a, a Yeah, it's pretty cool. I think that should be something that we should work on nationally. Absolutely. Um, and, and basically the training was intense. I love it. You know, looking back, I love it at the time, eh, but looking back, <laugh>, you know, it's crazy how you don't know the good moments when you're living them.
Anthony Gangi 00:04:37 That's true. Uh, <laugh>, you know. That's true. And then, um, I started my career at a female facility as an officer, and I was there for, uh, 2000. Well, uh, uh, I graduated the academy in 2003. So around 2003 to 2011, I strictly worked with only females. Uh, I was an officer at the female facility. Uh, tough job. Close to, well, you know what, it's all, it's all I knew mm-hmm. <affirmative> at the beginning. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. I had no comparison. Uh, and to be honest with you, looking back, yeah, there are some differences now that I've worked with men for most of my career now, cuz uh mm-hmm. <affirmative> after, after leaving, um, the female facility, I became a sergeant at a maximum security facility for a few years, and then eventually crossed into administration and went to two other facilities after that. And yes, I, there is, um, there is a bit of a difference, uh, but to be honest with you, at the end of the day, it's really about just the exchange of respect.
Anthony Gangi 00:05:34 I mean, you know, you're, you're always gonna have your wild, you know, your wild inmates. And, and when you asked the beginning, I wanted to mention something. I was watching one of your videos, which is a great video. Um, it's an audio one. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And it was about the leadership one you just did. I totally connected to it there. One of the things you start talking about and was purpose, and I want to give some advice for people that are listening to it right now. Uh, when, when I, when I came into this profession, I w I was externally motivated, as I mentioned, I'm not gonna lie to you, it was about benefits and salary mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, but as you travel through this profession, obviously there are gonna be, you know, a a lot of stress, a lot of anxiety, because the stuff you're gonna have to deal with, you know, fights, suicides, the mandated overtime and Yep.
Anthony Gangi 00:06:17 I learned very quick in my career. Very quick, uh, very quick, and you actually mentioned a little bit of this in your audio, is that I need to connect to something of value because the external motivation isn't giving me enough fuel for the energy I'm expending. So yeah. I found a way to connect to my service cuz corrections really is about service to others. You mentioned that in your video, you know mm-hmm. <affirmative> inmates to public, our peers, whatever the case may be, there is a greater service. And then what happened was I went from literally a meaningless job to a purposeful career, the moment I connected myself to what I do in a healthy way and developed meaning, uh, behind the work. And, and to be honest with you, uh, I'm no longer motivated. I'm inspired. I I love this profession. I love the people in it.
Michael Cantrell 00:07:04 Yes, absolutely. Um, one of the things I've learned from, uh, getting into these podcasts and stuff, I, I always looked outside of where I was at about the other correctional officers, but I'm really learning about how global it is. Have you noticed that? I mean, you meet correctional officers from all over the world. Yeah. Yeah. So,
Anthony Gangi 00:07:23 Yeah, that, that's actually a great point, Mike. I mean, at the end of the day, I think what, what what's happening now is podcasts like yourself, uh, at mine as well. Uh, we got just to name a few guys, Gary York, uh, uh Yep. We got corruption behind bars that he's got a great author, great, great, um, podcast or a YouTube channel, William Young, the list goes on. We have kind of done our best to give them a voice and they want to embrace that cuz they haven't had one ever. Right. So now I do start to see more people coming out of the woodwork. And at least when I go to these events, Mike people actually come up and they, they're proud and they, and, and they say, what do you do for them? I'm a correctional officer. And that's what they are. They don't mm-hmm. <affirmative> say, I'm a correctional officer, but one day I wanna be this. No, I'm a correctional officer. And that's where I stand. And I love it because they're living in the now and they're loving that moment.
Michael Cantrell 00:08:13 Isn't that great? Love it. Yeah. Because I know I'm coming in some of the, uh, old prisons that I did, Leavenworth and Missouri State Pen, you ran in as a rookie, you'd run into that old crusty guy that just hated life, you know, that was off in the corner. And, and he just hated everything. And I was just so scared that I was gonna become that person. But like you talked about, you know, find your purpose, find a meaning, uh, find something that drives makes you get up in the morning, you know, and, uh,
Anthony Gangi 00:08:41 You know, you, you know, Mike, you're right Mike. You're, you're, you were intentional with your career. The one thing about corrections guys is if you're passive, it, it could take the best of you. I mean, you have to be intentional with finding the positive in a negative environment. So again, the, you know, having that connection, finding purpose is really all an intentional effort. And if you choose that route, and, and when I say be positive, I'm not talking about changing, um, the environment. I'm talking about shifting where you're looking because there is positive things in that environment. Someone goes, well yes, positive ga, you're telling me to shift my environment. No, it, look for it. Right. But again, it's intentional effort, Mike, that that's the key.
Michael Cantrell 00:09:22 Yeah, it is. Absolutely. Um, let me, um, let's talk about a couple of your books. I've read the first one, uh, inmate Manipulation, decoded. And, um, did working at, uh, a female prison that long, did that really give you some insight into inmate manipulation maybe?
Anthony Gangi 00:09:40 Nah. <laugh>. Well, well, you know what's funny, I I, I I got that shot. Uh, so yeah. So, um, so that book is pretty much about, when did that book come about? 2020. So let's say about 18 years of just insightful experience that basically was more focused on the process than the outcome. I mean, right. Uh, one of the things here is that, uh, even when they teach manipulation, uh, I found that there was a gap there, because most people will tend to, uh, you know, focus on the outcome, which leaves the class thinking like, well, I'm never gonna do this. I'm never gonna do that. And what they did not do is teach people what leads that to happen. How do good people become corrupted? You know, the yes. There, there, there was this old mindset where, you know, you got caught up. You know, it was never about you being turned.
Anthony Gangi 00:10:28 It was about you were foolish to begin with. And I, and, and not to minimize, um, you know, the officers or the staff that do stuff foolish, but I wanted to kind of see the victim mentality and then try to put some onus on the game being played without minimizing the responsibility of the other player. Um, absolutely. So, yeah, the inmate manipulation decoded is, um, a subtle look at the process of things that motivate us, uh, that we may not realize, uh, we're doing at that time. So I, I, I, I wrote that book to helpfully, uh, protect, uh, careers. But I wanna mention one other thing. The book is not meant to. Yeah. The book is not meant to make you afraid of dealing with inmate interactions. A lot of people are like, well, you know, universal precaution means you don't talk to inmates. No, guys. It just means you control the dialogue. So again, the book is really to give you the, the, the, the armor to kind of, you know, go into these dialogues. But the book is not meant to scare you and not have dialogue. I mean, you're gonna have interactions.
Michael Cantrell 00:11:25 Yeah. I, I, if you don't mind, I'd like to read from this one section, cuz it really, you know, I had told, uh, other coworkers and rookies and stuff over the years, you know, just learn to say no, just say no. But you took a moment here. And I, I love the couple of paragraphs here because it talks about external justification and internal justifications, and I think you just hit it on the head. Um, the external justification leaves room for the manipulative inmates request to be revisited. Staff members who constantly find themselves using an external source to justify their responses, have done nothing to prevent the inmate from challenging the no or directive provided external responses are considered weak, easily challenged, and does nothing for the staff to prevent the inmate from bringing up the same request. Again, internal justifications place the responsibility on the staff member providing the directive.
Michael Cantrell 00:12:18 When the directive is given and challenged, the inmate will know it's the staff member saying the directive and more importantly, believing it. And I think that's just, you know, even with leadership, even dealing with your own staff, you know, don't say, well, I'm doing this because policy says I have to do this. I'm doing this because I believe in it, this is who I am. And you're never gonna get, you're, you're not gonna get pushback on that. So yeah, that was one of the parts, I I just, you really put that in great words. There mean
Anthony Gangi 00:12:49 I need you for Audible. Uh, so yeah, I need you for Audible <laugh>. Uh, am I, can I comment on on what I, what I thought when I was writing that? Sure. So obviously, um, the external versus internal justification. So technically for me, I, uh, always used to find it weak when you had to deliver a directive and then put that directive on somebody else when the inmate went to question it. Now, I'm not saying you have to explain to an inmate why something has to be done. Sometimes you do out of fairness. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> if, if you really feel they don't understand it. Um, but if they're doing it to challenge it, you know, then if you are gonna explain, you gotta be mindful that the, the, if they're looking to challenge you, then you wanna step up and take onus to that directive. You know, you don't wanna pass that off to someone else.
Anthony Gangi 00:13:35 Cause that's weak-minded again, like, oh, well, uh, you, you can't eat in the public area. Okay, well, why not? Well, because the sergeant said you can't, well, what the hell, the sergeant's not there tomorrow. Then the inmate ask us again. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And the other, the other thing is, is that you have to be motivated or Yeah, you have to be motivated from what's inside. So basically I'm giving you a directive that gets challenged. Why? It's because I said so. I mean, that's it. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, there's no other if and buts about it. I said, so it's what I want. And, and that's what I expect. I'm either gonna, I'm not either gonna push rules, I'm pushing expectations at first. I, I'll, I'll get to the rules if, if, if we have to play that route, because the rules are, are my fail safe. But at the first time, why not?
Anthony Gangi 00:14:16 Because it's my expectation. Right? It's what I want, I want carried now, uh, and at, at the end of the day, I I, if you're not gonna do it, then I'm the one that's gonna be writing you up or, uh, whatever else the, the consequence would be. And it was funny because a good, a good scenario about that when you mentioned policy, sometimes people feel that when an inmate questions something leaning on policy is a great way to justify it. Their mind sometimes could be a little bit different. There was a, a story in that book, uh, about a love note that was given to a female staff member. Now, by the way, she did everything right, turned it in, did what she was supposed to do. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, when the inmate found out, she turned it in. He questioned her as to why. And she says, because it's against the policies and the procedure. And the inmate turned around and said, well, if it wasn't for policy and procedure, then we could be together.
Michael Cantrell 00:15:05 <laugh>. That's exactly the way they think. But
Anthony Gangi 00:15:08 External, first, internal, and Yeah. And you know what's funny too, Mike, real quick. So external justification or even, um, justifying why you're doing something right, based on external motives. Like I, I I, I'm not gonna have sex with an inmates cause I don't wanna go to jail or I don't wanna lose my job. Whatever it is. Believe it or not, when the inmates start to build that level of trust with you mm-hmm. <affirmative>, they can minimize those external consequences to the point where they don't exist. So now when you look at that inmate and you start to trust that inmate and you believe that they're not gonna turn you in, well guess what? The consequence of you losing your job, losing your money, losing your whatever mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it doesn't exist anymore because you're starting to build a trust for the inmate. So your sure internal motive is why, why do you do what you do?
Anthony Gangi 00:15:50 Why, why is it because it's the right thing? Because that's what I'm here for. That's what I believe in. Uh, and that's what makes me want to do my job. And that, and, and what's great about that, Mike, is because when it comes to that external motivate, that ma mo external motivations, you're leaving that in the hands of someone else to control internal. That's me. Yep. So, if that's about my job or that's about what I hold dear, that's my core values. I don't put that on the outside for someone to hold. That's for me to hold and mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and I'll be honest with you, that's a lot harder to get to than me just throwing it out there and, and, and hoping that it's it's strong enough. Because when that stuff doesn't exist anymore, guys, people get corrupted.
Michael Cantrell 00:16:31 Yes. Yeah. And, and those inmates have spent a lifetime justifying why they didn't have to follow the rules. You know? Um, they wanted the candy bar at the 7-Eleven store. Well, I was born in this bad neighborhood and I don't have enough money, so I just, just go get it myself. I'll just take it. You know. So rules aren't always something that, that prevents them from trying to do that. And I think along when you show that it's you, and this is who I am, and this is what I believe, I think you'll see inmates just walk around you. They, they're, they're not even gonna mess with you. They'll go find an easier, an easier person to go after. Uh, so, and I'll tell you, uh, a little story.
Anthony Gangi 00:17:13 Oh, no, no. I was gonna tell you. I love what you said real quick. Um, you said, uh, the rules, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I love what you said because you're, you're a hundred percent correct. Most of the inmates that we deal with, you're right. Uh, they're used to not following the rules. That's why at first, as I mentioned before, and I, and I, I love that you, you, you said this is, I lean on expectations first to see if I can get something from them on the inside that they can connect with. And I'm saying, Hey, you know what? I expect this from you. And that gives the inmate some level. Like, yeah, let me see if I can meet that expectation. The rules to me has always been secondary. Cuz by the way, within my expectations are the rules of the agency. But I wanna let the inmate know that you're doing this for you first. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and then most likely they'll be willing to comply. But when you start pushing the rules in their mind, it's like, well, what do these rules do for me? Right. Right. So I usually save the rules as my final attempt. Like, if this expectation isn't working, I know I gave you a fair chance to step up and be the man you gotta be or be the woman you gotta be. Now you're choosing not to. So now here comes the rules, and when you don't follow it, here comes the automatic consequences that connect to that.
Michael Cantrell 00:18:17 Yeah. Yeah. Kind of along the same lines of what we're talking, and this was later on in my career, I, I, I got checked by a, a female officer. She was walking on the yard, and like inmates will do sometimes you'll see him, and they were checking her out as this one inmate was checking her out as she walked by. So of course I grab him, snag him up, pull him over to the side, and I'm like, dude, you're not gonna do that here. We're not gonna put up with that if I, if you do it again, you know, you're gonna get, uh, sanctions and stuff. And so I see her in the hall later and I, I told her, I said, watch out for this guy. You know, he was checking you out. But I took care of it. I pulled him off to the side and she looked at me and she said, please don't do that anymore. If he does that, I want you to pull me in because I want him to hear it from me. That that's who I am, that I don't allow it. And I was like, you know, that makes perfect sense. Uh, I kind of did do her an injustice by not letting her be I involved in that and, and showing that this is who I am and that you're not gonna do that here. So that was, I learned that later in my career, kind of got checked with that.
Anthony Gangi 00:19:18 Now, that's actually phenomenal. I mean, the fact that we do take the protector role, but sometimes we don't realize that, you know, sometimes when we do that, uh, the inmates see that, and then the person themselves, uh, may be looked at as vulnerable and weak. So it is good for them to get that chance to step up. But if ever I felt that, like you said, if I had to protect somebody, if I felt at that moment mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, I'm gonna, if I have to step up, I will. But I'm also gonna tell that person, Hey, next time, this is an effort to empower you. Uh mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I, I stepped in immediately cause I didn't like where it was going. I gave you a chance to kind of set it straight, uh, but at this point you didn't. So I felt the need to step in.
Anthony Gangi 00:19:52 But that's, that, that's like that, that saying what, uh, uh, teach a man to fish or buy him a fish, you know? Right. The protection's great. I'll buy you a fish, you eat for a day. But, but ultimately I gotta get you to walk around, feel an empowered and, you know, knowing that you cannot be afraid to do what's correct. And that's where teaching the person how to fish, uh, holds more weight. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Because again, when they're alone, um, the inmates, you know, they're gonna see the person as weak as they're always walking around with someone to protect them.
Michael Cantrell 00:20:22 Mm-hmm. <affirmative> abso, absolutely. Um,
Anthony Gangi 00:20:24 It's a good, good topic.
Michael Cantrell 00:20:26 Yeah. Yeah. Um, so another little, uh, part in your book here, and this, this, I guess this is my pet peeve, and you, you hit on it here. It says, uh, I need him be advised. Sometimes staff may find themselves in a position where they find re they're reliant on an inmate reliance and obligation have the same effect on staff. In the long run. Staff will lose the level of authority over the inmate. Sometimes an inmate will go above and beyond, and the assignments provided to them, the inmate wants to prove to staff that they are not so easily replaced. These type of actions can easily be seen by the inmate maintenance workers aids, as well as other inmate porters. Um, staff may find themselves in need of the service, and therefore defending the inmate when they do something wrong. Staff will even go as far as justifying in defense and, and mentioning that they need the inmate, because that's the only one who can do the job.
Michael Cantrell 00:21:20 My pet peeve, I, I worked a lot of Seg over the years, and Monday morning you'd come to work and I'd get a phone call from whatever section it was in the prison. Hey, why is my inmate locked up? Um, your inmate <laugh>. If you think he's your inmate, we've already got a problem. Um, they're not your inmate. You should be able to take any inmate and a mop bucket and mop a floor. There's not an inmate that's better than the others inside that prison. Or you're not the correctional officer you need to be. That's what I used to tell 'em. And that, that was always my, my pet peeve when people would do that. You, you seen that?
Anthony Gangi 00:21:58 Yeah. I, I definitely gotta have you on my show, Mike. Uh, maybe. We'll, I have a show coming up tomorrow. We'll figure it out. Uh, Mike, uh, you gotta email me your phone number because we're, we're on, we're in sync, so, okay.
Anthony Gangi 00:22:08 <laugh>, uh, yeah, we're in sync. So, you know what's funny? I'll, I'll give you an example. Uh, you know, definitely with the porters, I also don't like the name of trustees that's in the book, you know? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, because the label, uh, you know, says that the person could be trusted. I, I don't like the, the word favor, uh, because it puts somebody in op, uh, in a, in that feeling of obligation. But when it comes to the reliance, I mean, we keep have inmates that offer protection, uh, to staff. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And it's like, really, uh, you know, I have my people for that. And, and again, always it's always about, uh, the I do for you, you do for me. And I, and I've seen inmates that have become so good at their job for that reason. And at the end of the day, because facilities are sometimes self sustain, sustaining, and we do have inmate details who are very good at, you know, plumbing and electrician and whatever.
Anthony Gangi 00:22:55 And then sometimes we go quick cuz out of desperation, it's like, yo, we, we need that inmate. It's like, yeah. But at some point, I, I'd rather pay the vendor because this inmate is in lock right now and they messed up. And now the problem is I'm literally going there begging that inmate for help. And, and, and one of the things here is, is, is nothing's given for free in this world. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, eventually this inmate's gonna want something back. And, and that effort to be reliant on that inmate really gives that inmate a chance to, you know, take control guys. When, when you're reliant on an inmate for whatever it is, even if it's a tiny superficial reason, like the way they clean your area, guys, they're the one that's in control. You know? I mean, yeah. You know, and, and they'll be quick to tell you because they start to shift and they're doing their job.
Anthony Gangi 00:23:37 That's what they're supposed to do. Cuz you gave 'em the directive, but then they start coming back saying, Hey, I'll clean this. I only clean it this way for you. You know, know or I'll do you the favor. You can't let them get those words out and say, no, no, no, you're cleaning it that way cuz I told you to clean it that way. Or what favor, you know what, the moment you tell me favor, you're removed. Right. And that's a zero tolerance. You're gonna tell me favor, I'm the officer giving you the directive, you're removed because that, that, that to me is the ultimate sign that, uh, you're doing me a favor. So what does that mean later on, I gotta do you one not happen.
Michael Cantrell 00:24:08 Sure. That's what the, that's what they're after. I, I also think that, uh, even if they're not getting something in their hand at that moment, I think staff need to be aware that some of those hardest workers, some of those ones that keep your unit clean, that make you look good in front of the administration, when they come through and take that walkthrough, they're getting something out of it. And it may be nothing more than the information that they gained from being close and listening to staff in that unit. Mm-hmm. They're getting something. It may not be in their hand, but they wouldn't do it for nothing.
Anthony Gangi 00:24:39 Well, you know, uh, I mean, to be honest with you rely, but you're right. So, so reliant, uh, there's also a level of trust that's exchanged. Uh, you know, when you're relying on somebody, I mean, yes, it is defined by an action, but when you become reliant, you are trusting that person, uh, at a very deep and intimate level. I mean, I'll be honest with you, uh, you know, I'm relying on my peers for having my back. You know? Sure. I'm relying on my family. Uh, and, and the reason why I'm relying on them is because I would have no problem doing the same for them if they needed me. You know? So I think there is an exchange of, you know, when I'm relying on somebody, I also put myself in a position that, um, if, if they ever need me, I'm gonna step up and do whatever I can for them because they've done that for me.
Anthony Gangi 00:25:21 And I'm not willing to give that to just anyone. So when I ask for help, uh, there's a lot behind that word because in the effort for me to ask for help, I'm also saying as, as, you know, as, as any person should, that I'm willing to do for you one day as well. So I, I'm not very quick to be relying on an inmate or ask an inmate for help. And there's another thing too. Sometimes a lot of old school, I don't know, I'm sure the practice could still be there, it depends mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But let's say you get a rookie, uh, that's starting day one. It goes right into the unit and you have a, a senior officer that pretty much may, may not be, uh, the best worker, maybe a little bit lazy. And then when the, when the, uh, officer's like, well, you know, as a rookie, if I need help, who can I call?
Anthony Gangi 00:26:04 Oh, you can talk to that inmate right there. Uh, they're the senior inmate and they know pretty much how to run the unit. It's like, listen, that's the initial impression that, that that rookie officer is gonna have with that senior officer. And then you're already putting that rookie officer in, in, in a, uh, a feeling of obligation towards that inmate. Because that rookie right now is, is is confused. You're trying to figure out how to maneuver her the job and mm-hmm. <affirmative> and a simple ask could be an, a desperate act for them because again, they, they don't know they're learning. Right. And now you're gonna give that over to an inmate who will later on go ahead and, and, and, and ask for a favor return. Then the rookie does it. And then we never go back to, whoa, how the hell hell this happened. Because six months ago you gave that officer to that inmate, right. Handed him over.
Michael Cantrell 00:26:49 Yeah. I, I was lucky because that was the first four hours of my career. Uh, wait,
Anthony Gangi 00:26:56 Wait, wait, wait. See <laugh>, see that, is that what happened? That
Michael Cantrell 00:26:59 Was, it was, I went to Missouri State Pen, they put me up on the third walk in three building and one of the officers said, go up there and run showers. And I said, what does that mean? Old lever halls? You had to rack the levers and stuff. And he said, just ask the walk-man. He'll let you know who comes out for showers. Well, three hours later, these guys have all closed down their walks. Cuz I've had a fight and all but three people are out of their cells on my walk. Cause this guy's been telling me, let this one out, let that one out. And, um, so I learned real quick that, uh, I had to be careful of <laugh>, uh, some of the advice I got. But, uh, yeah, that's exactly what they did to me. Go, the Walkman will tell you what to do. And, and it luckily it didn't, it didn't go well or I might've kept going with that, you know mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but it went bad. So I was like, whoa, I gotta figure out my my own way down this.
Anthony Gangi 00:27:47 Well, you know, excuse me. You're right. I mean, for No, no, uh, it's a great story you share because it really is about that first impression because it sets the foundation and you know, if you get someone when they're vulnerable and, and you tell 'em it's okay to do that, uh, then when they make that, um, you know, a foundational behavior, uh, and they keep on doing it, then it's like, yeah, but you guys started the person off wrong. You know, you told them at one point that the inmate will be more available to them than you. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, and, and, and, and that to me, uh, has been unaccept unacceptable to me since even when I first started this career. Cuz it happened to me. And I even knew right at the beginning that this didn't feel right because it just put me in such an awkward position.
Anthony Gangi 00:28:28 Cuz the academy, I, I'm not gonna say I was taught in us first then, but I was taught that I was in a position of authority. And when I was desperate for information, going to an inmate to gather that information, I felt made me less in that position of authority. And it lifted the inmate up. And, and right off the bat, no one enough to recognize that was wrong would be me going back to that officer and saying, Hey, listen, if you don't wanna help me, can you find me another officer that will, that's all I'm asking because I'm not, I'm not gonna go to an inmate. Well, they're here all the time. It doesn't matter guys. I don't wanna go an inmate for personal reasons. I don't wanna be vulnerable, uh, to an inmate. I don't wanna tell an inmate. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I don't know, something at the beginning of my career. I want the inmate to know that if I don't know something, you guys are all here supporting me. And the good thing about that, the good thing about that is that I go on the strength of my team, which means that I'm never alone. You got me being alone.
Michael Cantrell 00:29:20 Sure.
Anthony Gangi 00:29:20 You know? Sure. So, so if we all go at this together, there's nothing I won't know because you'll have my back and the inmates need to see that. And all you showed them today was you're willing to pass me off and then wonder later on in my career, later on when I'm too close to the inmates. Well, you know why, because you made me too close to the inmates. You told me that that was my resource. Yeah.
Michael Cantrell 00:29:39 Yeah. Don't ever separate, separate any of them from us. You know, when they get, when they get cut from that herd, that's when it's dangerous, you know? So, I'm, I'm curious, um, you went to a four month academy, so how much of that was Yes. So police officer stuff, how much of it was corrections? That's because I went through the Bureau of Prisons as a three week academy, uh, Missouri Department of Corrections was, I believe, three. I talked to a guy the other day who was putting officers in the jail after a day and a half, uh, because they're not spending the money on a training and stuff. So tell me about a four month academy. What, what all did you get out of that? Was that, what did you think about that?
Anthony Gangi 00:30:21 Yeah, it was, uh, so we, I, I loved it. So again, it, it's, it is stressful at the moment. I've never, uh, been through something as intense as that before. And by the way, the system I'm in now has only evolved. I mean, you can go to YouTube right now and look up videos. Um, well, at this point, uh, I could just tell you the New Jersey Department of Correction has great videos on, uh, academy training. We have a great PIO o who, uh, really, um, shows you what type of, um, stuff we do in the academy. So I started the Academy December 2nd, 2002, and I graduated the academy probably mar I think I, if I remember correctly, March 19th, 2003. Um, so again, you know, it's, it's, it's intense because you're living there Monday through Friday, and then Friday night you go home, uh, you're good for the weekends and you gotta be back, uh, um, Monday morning early.
Anthony Gangi 00:31:14 I mean, early, uh, you gotta be back. I, I remember having to be on the road by 3:00 AM to get there by four or five <laugh>. Um, but so basically, uh, a big part of it is really, uh, I, I think the Academy is about cultivating and not, um, and not changing individuals. I think the people that, um, if the academy's forced to change people, a lot of people aren't really gonna make their way through. I think that they find a spark in somebody and they find a way to cultivate that. I also believe that they like to put an usher stem mentality between us and instructors. So we together mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, we could form a tighter group because again, in the wall that's all we have is each other. Right. So they want us to con, to connect so they wind up being the enemy at first.
Anthony Gangi 00:31:56 Right. Uh, then eventually it lessons. Um, but basically a lot of the stuff we got was, um, you know, well, let, let me get rid of the obvious. We got the firearms training, all that. Uh, sure. The mma, you know, the mixed martial arts, uh, the oc you know, the tactical stuff. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> definitely is gonna be a big portion of that. Uh, you know, because a lot of people haven't, you know, shot a gun before, haven't been sprayed in the face with oc. So, you know, it gets introduced and you get, um, you know, trained, by the way, there are zero tolerance to certain things. You can't pass the range. You, you can't pass the academy. You know, I mean, there's certain things that, um, there are gonna be zero tolerance for. Uh, there is gonna be the pt. I mean, literally you are p ting every day and every other day you were running one and a minimal one and a half miles, but most of the time it could have been three to five to prepare you for that one and a half mile run.
Anthony Gangi 00:32:48 Uh, we were lucky we were on the beach, but I was also in the dead of winter. So, um, you know, we got lucky cuz most of our training when I went was done on the inside because it was a little cold to go on the outside. But it was funny when we messed up on overnight, it wasn't too cold to put us in that leaning pushup, um, you know, for leaving a candy bar wrapper in the sink. Right. Um, we get a lot of training on, uh, criminal just, uh, criminal, uh, codes like the 10 A of corrections, you know, to understand, uh, you know, the policies and procedures, the generalized policies and procedures mm-hmm. <affirmative> that govern, uh, each facility. Um, you know, we also, uh, go into interpersonal communication training, uh, you know, training that kind of, uh, helps us relate to having that position of authority and then dealing with people that may be a little bit resistant to that.
Anthony Gangi 00:33:34 Uh, sure. Um, you know, we, we cover everything from, uh, we also did, uh, training when I did it, I don't know if they still do this now, but we would switch roles and be an inmate mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, to kind of know what it feels like to be on the other side of that officer. We would also do a lot of mock training, like, you know, pretending we're inmates on a dorm and then the officer's gotta patrol the dorm. So a lot of, a lot of good, um, a lot, a lot of good, uh, what, what do you call it? Uh, scenario based training. Sure, yeah. Role based and then a lot of class. There was a lot of classroom, but, but again, your day would start off with the pt. But I would say the trainings for the classroom was mostly, a lot of it was based on the laws.
Anthony Gangi 00:34:13 That's a big part of, of New Jersey criminal code. You know, we have a lot of laws, uh, that you have to know, you have to memorize, you have to have an understanding and, and also of why that law exists. Uh, that's a big thing because one thing about the state I work in is they expect a lot from us, uh mm-hmm. <affirmative> as officers because we are regulating the rules and when we make a decision, they expect us to be able to justify that decision through the why of why that decision needed to be made. Because it's easy to train people the what, the how, uh mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But the why is is is really what matters. If you know the why, the why will truly save your, your career when writing, oh, report writing was a big thing. I mean, literally, I mean, you are learning how to write something, uh, in, in a, in a manner that everybody can read and understand.
Anthony Gangi 00:34:59 Because at any point that stuff could be taken to the highest level radio codes, um, uh, incident commands. Wow. You know, basically if stuff was happening inside the facility, you know, um, how does it work when you know you have to have an in incident command set up. We also did, uh, we would have like the investigators come in, talk about their job and what they expect of us. So we're working in a good partnership. So we're, we're trained on crime scene management, um, you know, a a a bunch of things that basically relate to the needs of the other departments that will be working in the house. So we do have interactions with a lot of the civilian staff. So they'll introduce themselves and talk about, you know, what it is that they have to, to do, and then how we play a part in that.
Anthony Gangi 00:35:39 And, uh, you know, it, it, it really is everything. Uh, we're trained on everything, but actually they, they shifted a little bit cause of our rovers. But when I went to the academy, we weren't trained on pulling people over. Uh, now they have introduced our training to us. So our officers are trained, uh, especially our rover officers are trained on pulling people over so it could be done safely. Uh, because as a rover, obviously you are, um, you are gonna be pulling people over going to the vehicle. Sure. And you gotta make sure that the officers are safe. So we're very on par with what the police get. They say sometimes the only difference that we have is at the time they would have that title 39, which is the, uh, the pulling over, which we do have a section of that mm-hmm. <affirmative> and they get trained on domestic, which technically everything we do in the prison system is domestic <laugh>. So, um, other than that, we're pretty much trained, uh, almost parallel actually. Our academies actually, uh, also teach the state police on, um, riot control, uh, mma, uh, right. Yeah. We're pretty Jersey. That's amazing. Jersey's pretty advanced when it comes to, uh, training. Yeah.
Michael Cantrell 00:36:47 That's, that's probably the best. It's, it's a good Academy academy program I've ever heard. Um, that's amazing. That's great.
Anthony Gangi 00:36:53 Well, as I said, you could check the video. There's a video on YouTube if you get a chance, you could check it out. Just put mm-hmm. <affirmative>, nj, D O c Training Academy. It's a few years old, but it'll give you a taste of, uh, you know, um, what they do. But it's, it's a very good, it's a, it's a good academy man. It is.
Michael Cantrell 00:37:10 Right. Yeah. So you started off as an officer, um, and you did that for, what'd you say, several years? 11?
Anthony Gangi 00:37:19 Yeah. Uh, I was an officer from, so I graduated the academy at, uh, started in 2002, graduated the academy in 2003. So I, I went from correctional officer recruit to, correct, I'm sorry, correctional officer trainee to correctional officer recruit. So I was a C O R for a year. And then I was a, a S C a Senior Correctional Officer for about seven because I left, I left my first facility to become a sergeant in 2011. So Right. You know, 2004 I became an S C O and then a sergeant after that.
Michael Cantrell 00:37:52 So what was that spark that made you want to go up through the, uh, ranks to move on up and, and take those leadership positions?
Anthony Gangi 00:38:00 Uh, good point. And by the way, uh, you guys get a chance, you gotta check out his audio on leadership. It's a real good video. You, uh, audio that you put up, uh, to get your last, the last one you put up. I enjoyed it. That was the one I was listening to. Thank you. Before we got here as well. Yeah. It's a very good episode. Uh, okay. So for me, at first, uh, to be honest with you, uh, there were certain people that were getting moved up, um, that I just said, you know what, um, I may not want them to be my boss. Um, so I, I, my, my, my incentive wasn't correct at first. Uh, it, it wasn't, it wasn't. Um, but having said that, uh, it was a position I grew into and I learned to love. So eventually, I will tell you this cuz it definitely wasn't about the race, cuz it really wasn't that much of a bump, um mm-hmm. <affirmative>.
Anthony Gangi 00:38:44 But when I became in, when I, when I became the supervisor, there was such a connection I had with my people. Um, because you know what's funny is when you're an officer, um, you're definitely accountable to each other. But when you become a supervisor, you're responsible for that person. Yes. And I think there's a level of difference with that, um, that, uh, I really enjoyed. Well, on the tactical side, uh, so basically I would consider a sergeant the tactical side of supervisory. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, before we started getting into the administrative or the strategic side that you was mentioned in your video. Yep. Uh, cuz you're that one layer removed. So as a sergeant, uh, you have that close connection to your people. You have that level of responsibility and you, and, and I think you just develop, um, a very healthy family. We're all working together to do what we can that's best for the agency, best for the team.
Anthony Gangi 00:39:39 And in the end, um, there's a reward behind that because I think, to be honest with you, uh, you know what's funny now that you asked that question, what's that? <laugh>, I think, to be honest with you, cuz I, this is just, uh, just came to the top of my head right now since you asked that, cuz you got me thinking real quick. I think, to be honest with you, when I became a supervisor and I had that responsibility and I started seeing successes, uh, uh, and when I mean successes, the people I'm leading are, are stepping up and, and becoming the best that they can be. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, I started feeling fulfilled. Uh, this goes way beyond being happy about a job, guys. This is really being fulfilled about the why something has happened, uh, is happening. And I felt fulfilled by seeing other people step up into their potential and be successful. So I think being a supervisor gave me a chance to really step into that service of others and, and really embrace the role of, of, of what it takes to be a leader and be responsible for the people in your charge. So fulfillment 100% is what I grew into.
Michael Cantrell 00:40:46 Yeah. And I think, I think people shouldn't expect as they move up through the ranks that your purpose, like we talked about earlier, that your purpose is gonna remain the same cuz it's not, uh, you're gonna find and have to find new purposes as you get farther up that rank structure. Cuz I know you said you were a sergeant. I think lieutenant is probably kind of comparable in the Bureau of Prisons. And that was the greatest time. I mean, it's you and like you said, your family, your team, your shift, you're leading them, you're there with them, uh, they care about you, you care about them. And then you take that step over <laugh>. And now I started getting pushed away from, you know, um, my custody family and here I am with administration on this side and custody on this side. And I was, was, I was a little bit caught in the middle and I had to find new purpose there.
Michael Cantrell 00:41:36 And, and it did become, like you said, that mentorship I found where I had the ability to help people who needed that step up. And so I really got engaged in doing that. And of course that was about the time I went to Thompson, opened up that new prison. So I got to get my feet just in there and train. We trained every day with rookies. And that was very fulfilling for me. But I do think you have to be, um, be there and understand that your purpose is gonna change as you go through this career.
Anthony Gangi 00:42:08 So, you know, that's, that's, that's powerful, Mike, because when you're in the middle, uh, you know, let's say middle management, I, I, I would start looking at lieutenants as the introduction to administrative level. So I would see them as middle managers, to be honest with you. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, even though sometimes they could step down into that tactical role, for the most part, they usually are once removed. I always say that you have to speak three languages when you're middle management. You have to sp speak the strategic side of uh, what's being, you know, uh, passed down, right? Yep. Uh, the vision and then for our level, the vision, if you will. And then our level is filtering that to operations. How do I filter what they want to our operations? And then, uh, the tactical side being the officers and the sergeants. So technically it's more of the agency giving me the what and then me pushing the how down to my people.
Anthony Gangi 00:42:55 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And then I'll go back and explain the why it has to be done. You know? Cause you don't wanna micromanage the how that's for your people to discover. And then we work it out. But let them be invested because they have to discover that guys. I mean, you can't, when you get, when you get given what you know, you really gotta give it to your people. Sit down, have a dialogue and get them invested in it. Because then when it's successful, uh, they're gonna be a part of that. They're gonna want to be a part of that. And I think as middle management, we get actually did a video on this, we get caught up in that translation. And I believe that people that know how to translate those three languages survive. Because what they can do is they can pass the wants of the upper level and, and they, uh, you know, down and they, and they mm-hmm. <affirmative>
Anthony Gangi 00:43:36 And they can float the, the needs of the frontline up. And look what I just said guys, what's coming down needs going up. And, and the hardest part of that is that, believe it or not, top down communi uh, top down communication is pretty much natural. It's, it's the bottom up communication that's intentional. And we have to do what we can to help that front line bring that voice upwards. And if we're not speaking their language, then the message is not gonna be heard because it's up to me at that point. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> as a middle person to take what they need and translate that here to a point where they understand it. Excellent. And vi and, and, and vice versa. And you know what the best part about it all is part of that translation. Remember this word is as, again, I was gonna go back to it. Why, why does this have to be done this way? And then why, uh, do you need these resources? You know? And that helps out with the translation.
Michael Cantrell 00:44:30 Absolutely. Um, so let me, let me change direction here just a little bit. Um, you know, I've watched some of your uh, or a lot of your Tier talk for years. Um, and I I you have passion, you have passion for training, you have passion for, uh, the staff and the people that you're talking to on that podcast. Kinda walk me through, how did you get started with Tier Talk? What made you, uh, start doing that? And tell me from the beginning on, on how it kind of started and how it grew. Because it, it's, it's, I I, I told you all ago, I think you're probably the father of Correctional podcast cuz you've been, you've been doing it for a while and, um, it, it's very successful. So <laugh>, tell me a little bit about
Anthony Gangi 00:45:16 How you got I appreciate that. And, and, and by the way, the way Mike way success is by how people take the message. And that's what matters. It's not about the numbers. Mm-hmm. It's about just getting to that one person. Cause every time I do a show mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I'm speaking only to one person. And then Yes. You never, I see that it's crazy how much people, it's crazy how much people relate to that, you know, message. I, I mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I don't try to real quick, I, I I don't try to try to fit what everybody wants to hear because at the end of the day, you'll never be consistent with a message. So you stay true to what it is and you bring the people, uh, to the message, if you will. Um, so for me, I, I, here's the funny thing. So corrections has, uh, guys, uh, I've been through it too.
Anthony Gangi 00:46:00 I remember being bastardized, uh, because of being in this profession and people not understanding it. Now again guys, this was back in the early two thousands and I, uh, and I think, uh, Mike had mentioned this in one of his episode, I think it's the leadership episode where I think it's okay for us to connect to our job. I know a lot of people mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, may think differently. But guys, we do it for such a big portion of the day, or in some case what officers now they're mandated so much. So the point is, I don't want to hate that much of my life, but I also want to maintain a, a balance. You know, I, I get that, but that doesn't mean that I have to hate one, one thing and love the other. I don't that balance doesn't have to be on extremes of, you know, my job, uh, my home life becomes an escape because my life is miserable at, at, at the job guys.
Anthony Gangi 00:46:47 I'm not gonna mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I, I don't think that should be that way. So when I started realizing that I was connecting to this job, and when people were, you know, badmouthing what we do with very minimal understanding of, of, of, of why we do the things. Cuz that's the key. They, when they, when they badmouth their bastardized is possession, they go on the what. And then when we try to explain the why, they don't want to hear it. And they'll always go back to the what. And it's like, you know what, this is bullshit. So I started to feel a certain way where I chose this profession. I have value in this profession. So at one point mm-hmm. <affirmative>, yes, I went there because there was benefits, right? But I learned to love this profession, to the point where my connection to this profession, I didn't feel trapped.
Anthony Gangi 00:47:27 I felt like I chose it. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I felt like I never settled. So when you're attacking me, I have to stand up and defend it because this is what we do. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, this is who we are to some extent. And yes, I'm gonna say it guys, because I, I've been very healthy in how I manage my profession in my home life. So I'm okay with saying this is who I am because it hasn't changed. Because, you know what? I define my position because when I came into corrections, my core values never change. And that's, and I found a way to connect my core values to the expectation of the agency. I connected to the vision of my terms, but still within the parameters of what was expected of me as a, uh, as a trusted professional. So now with that said, uh, I, um, I, it was, it was a toll collector go figure, um, like who the hell are you pointing a finger at?
Anthony Gangi 00:48:15 But toll collect. Yeah. Sorry, just thinking about it right now, man. You got me <laugh>, you know, pissed off. No. So <laugh>. Yeah. So the toll collector, I, I, I like to chat with people. So I, I don't even do easy pass. I, I pay tolls. Uh, I want to interact with people, say hi, and, and keep moving. And, um, he knew I worked for where I worked because, you know, I'm, I'm in uniform as I'm driving through the tolls mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Right. And I remember him saying something bad about working at the female facility cuz something had hit the news. And he just, I mean, yeah. Jail guards. I don't know why you would choose this profe. And I'm like, really? I, I didn't have time to really go into a, you know, a pedestal moment there. Right. Uh, but I, I, it, it got to me.
Anthony Gangi 00:48:58 So I said, you know what? And it was this big thing where we kept on saying guards. And I don't know, it was the context of what, of how it was being utilized that made me think like, I, I get, we have a connection to that word. Hear me out. I get that <laugh>. But it was the context. And in order for me to defend the context, I'm like, this guy has no idea what we do. I know he saying the word guard because he, he sees us in a primitive way mm-hmm. <affirmative> and I know what we do. So I wind up writing an article for corrections. One called Yes, corrections Officers are Law Enforcement. And the article article went viral. It was just a timely article. Guys we're talking about hundreds of thousands of views shares. And, and, and, uh, it was a very popular article, very well received.
Anthony Gangi 00:49:41 And I started getting these crazy emails about how timely, uh, that article was. And then what happened was there was a law enforcement magazine, um, that, um, one of the editors had saw the article, um mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And what she did was, cause I published it on LinkedIn, I think, and, uh, well also Corrections one, obviously mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But it, it was also published on LinkedIn as well. I did it separately. Um, and what happened was the person saw the article and then she asked if I would like to work for the magazine because they wanted to give corrections a spotlight in that. And, which was great. Yeah. It was cool. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I jumped on the magazine. I worked for the magazine for a little bit. I, I, I wanna say this was like, I wanna wanna say this was around 2011, 2012 mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, so maybe about 11 years ago.
Anthony Gangi 00:50:33 Cause I know I was a, I had just became a sergeant at the time, so I started writing for the magazine monthly, and I was giving out articles monthly, you know, I was loving it. And then I had the idea because when I went to discuss every month, we would meet and discuss what plans we had mm-hmm. <affirmative> for the next month's article. I looked in the distance and they also had a radio, uh, studio there at the time. It was iTune Radio, I think. Or tune in radio. Tune in radio. And the guy had a studio. Uh, I mean, this guy had some money. He had everything set up nicely. And I really could not take my eyes off that. I, I actually would stay afterwards to see, at the time, a friend of mine who was actually writing for us, but actually was given a spot.
Anthony Gangi 00:51:16 She had a, she was doing a show. Sure. Uh, it's sad that we're no longer friends now, but we were friends at the time. And I, I remember telling my wife, I wanna do that. I said, I, I think I could, uh, do a very successful show, uh mm-hmm. <affirmative> on this guy's platform. Uh, not knowing, remember this is 2012. I tune in. All this stuff was new. Yeah. Internet, radio, all this stuff was really new. Sure. So, um, what I did was, it was around, it's, it's definitely around 2011, 2012. Cause I remember being winner and I was shopping at a jewelry store with my wife. I forget what we were looking for mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But I, I remember having this impulse in the middle of shopping while she was looking at something. And I said, you know what? I'm gonna put a suggestion into this guy that owns the magazine to see if I can go ahead and use that station and do a show once a week.
Anthony Gangi 00:52:04 So I, I first named that came to my mind for some reason was Tier Talk. It's never changed. It's always been that. Right. It was the first thing that came to my mind. And I gave a summary of what I would like to do. And basically what I wanted to do at first was look up correctional authors, uh, get their books, bring 'em on. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> take some of their audience, by the way. So it was a little bit of a motive behind that. But, but to go ahead and listen to, to watch, talk about their books and, you know, see if I could be, you know, if they'll gimme a show based on that at first. Sure. So when he messaged me back, he basically, you know, kind of challenges some of the thoughts I had. So I had it to defend, I had to defend it.
Anthony Gangi 00:52:42 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, and after I defend it, he said, yeah, we'll give you a shot. You know, we'll, we'll give it a shot. Uh, we'll do it. Um, whatever. Every Saturday, I think it was done at six o'clock. We did, it wasn't live. It was, it aired? No, it was done on Saturday. I forget when it aired. Uh, but it aired sometime during the week. Uh, but it was pre-recorded. Uh, very, very rarely did we ever go live. Sure. So what happened was, uh, I remember my first guest actually was Gary Cornelius. He's the author of The Art of the Con mm-hmm. <affirmative>, a bunch of other correctional books. And it was the first time I met him and I was just so, I'm still in awe by him. <laugh>. I mean, for me, he was, I'm sure there were before, but for me, he was the first author that had worked corrections that I read.
Anthony Gangi 00:53:25 Right. So I was very connected to what he was doing. He was teaching, I, I I felt him. And then just real quick, uh, the second was, um, uh, I believe either way, the first four shows I had Gary York and if you watched Care Talk, Russ Hamilton was on within the first couple of shows. So that's how far back me and Roscoe, by the way, cuz this is on my show. Yeah. A lot. If you're familiar with Tier Talk. Great. Uh, he's a retired sergeant out of, uh, California Department of Corrections. So what happened was, um, I'm doing the show regularly. Yeah. And, uh, you know, doing well. And then I get a phone call from C N N because they have the escape, uh, at Danamo. And when they had the escape at Danamo, I was given a call to see if I can go on the show.
Anthony Gangi 00:54:11 And I was so excited. This is, and then what happened, if I may, is that, uh, once those interviews did, well, unfortunately, I had a falling out with the, um, owner of the radio station. And basically I had to make a choice of whether I wanted to comply with something that they wanted me to do or not comply. And I chose not to comply with what it is that they wanted me to do. I told them that I did not want to comply with what it is that they wanted me to do. And then eventually, um, I had to separate from them. And now mind you, this is going back, this is around 2015 now. So I was with, I was with this radio for a few years now cause I was on CNN June of 2015 during those escapes. So I went home and I was upset because I thought I lost everything because, uh, the radio thing became such a big part of my life.
Anthony Gangi 00:55:09 I mean, when I tell you I did that show for about three years with them, I don't think I ever had one repeated show. And I went home, I was very upset. And I remember my wife telling me, you could just do this on YouTube. You don't mind you. I, I don't know, just not something that came to my mind that day. A lot, lot, lot different than today. But in 2015, I didn't think it. Sure. And, uh, lo and behold, after a few attempts, uh, we just started gaining the momentum on the YouTube channel. And at this point, now, now mind you're within a niche. Um, but I've earned every subscriber. I don't have any viral videos. I mean, I think the, the biggest video I have, it's over 200 something thousand views, but it's about a falling of an officer. So I don't get a lot of the traffic, uh, because it's not correctional related.
Anthony Gangi 00:55:54 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, but with that said, you know, I have been able to, uh, have about 33 something thousand followers on Facebook. Another 20 gonna be 22,000 followers on YouTube, which is the main platform. And yeah, I speak at conferences. I already have stuff coming up next year, private planes that take me to, uh, different, um, areas of the country, if not the world. And, uh, one of my biggest accom accomplishments recently was being the keynote speaker at the American Jail Association. And being told that however many years, 30 or 40 years, however long they've been doing it, I was the first ever prison person to keynote a jail conference. I didn't know that. Prison prisons and jails have, uh, you know, have a little bit of a divide. Uh, and then obviously the author of both the books, you know, it made manipulation, decoded. And then you have the other book right now called My Journey From Officer to Administration, which to me are two of, to also the great accomplishments.
Anthony Gangi 00:56:56 Cause when you write a book, you know you're gonna interact with people that you know you may never meet. And then the great thing is, guys, when you, when you make this difference and you go to the conferences, people relate to you, they relate to the videos, they relate to the book, and you feel that you're having an impact. And one last thing, Mike, is that, um, this, this to me matters guys. And if I may say something, I think this will carry a lot of weight, is that I never looked to, to impress anyone. I've always looked to make an impact. And when you wanna make an impact, an impact really is about walking next to somebody and helping them navigate through this profession. And I figure I have done that, uh, personally with people. Uh, but through my books, I have also, uh, been able to put out my hand and give the life lessons that I have learned and in the hopes that people don't have to go through.
Anthony Gangi 00:57:51 Um, maybe some of the things that I've went through. So I, I, I think overall, I've, I've done pretty well. And you mentioned before Mike, about mentoring. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, mentoring's key because it's a developed relationship between two people that trust each other. And I think, you know, for me, mentoring has been one of the greatest values because I'm, I'm given the chance to help somebody navigate through this profession. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I mean, that's key. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. But then I'm also given the chance to share my experiences, share my stories. And I, and I think that's such, there's such value behind that. And for people who don't, that don't realize the value behind mentoring somebody, I mean, really being invested in someone's career and sharing your story and on the other end to be next to someone and to share, uh, in those experiences. That's why, again, when you're first coming into this profession, you need to listen because these senior officers or these senior staff, they have stories to tell that have tremendous, tremendous value.
Anthony Gangi 00:58:52 And if you don't listen to those stories, you're missing out on advice that can not only save your career, by the way. Yep. Uh, but advice that's disappearing. Right. The senior staff are leaving. And the sad thing is, if we're not listening to those old school methods, the, the core value, uh, that's behind the lessons that we're learning every day. Cuz I always tell people, even though corrections is evolving, we're not really straying that far from core values. Right. And sometimes we need the reminder of that. Yeah. From the people that have walked the walk for so many years. Yeah. So I think that's a very good, you know, good mindset to have when it comes to being a mentor.
Michael Cantrell 00:59:33 Absolutely. Uh, a good communicator and a good officer. Were just as good 50 years ago as they are today, you know, so Yeah. Wow. Great information. And, um, I just, I want to thank you for being on the program. What, what kind of stuff are you up to now? What's coming up next?
Anthony Gangi 00:59:52 All right, so I have, conference wise, I'll be out with Montana, what a few of the Tier talk crew people. We're gonna be, uh, doing a conference out there. They actually, the book Inmate manipulation decoded, uh, is used in their training out there. They're very supportive of what we do. So I wanted them to go out there and meet the troops. Uh, I have, uh, couple things happening at the beginning of the year, but again, I'm still on the job guys, so I don't have notification time. So I have to be very strategic. Uh, and I'm actually working on my, my next book right now, which is just more of, uh, I, I, I don't know. It's, it's more of like insight. But what I'm gonna do with this book is that I like to get input. All my books you'll notice have input, input from people in the profession.
Anthony Gangi 01:00:33 Inmate manipulation to code at the very beginning will have a quote, uh, from someone from the profession. Uh, the most recent book, um, my Journey from Officer to Admin mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, it's, it's, it's a passage from me, but then every passage has a quote from like 159 different professionals <laugh>, uh, throughout the book. And then there's also a chance for you to write yourself this one right here, I'm gonna do something a little bit differently. I started writing the first chapter. Now I'm gonna, I'm gonna set the chapter up. Uh, let's say the first chapter I think is about knowing yourself and how to connect that to the profession. And then what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna lay out my premise. So maybe about, let's say 1500 words of what I feel is gonna set up the context and something personal for me. And then I'm gonna go ahead and let someone from the profession read that. And if they can relate to that story, then they will submit me their story, and then I will fix it up and put it in. And that will complete the chapter. So the context and then someone from the profession sharing it. Like for the first chapter. Yeah. Again, it's about, uh, finding purpose and connection. And then the person that's gonna add a story to that first chapter is gonna be William Young.
Michael Cantrell 01:01:41 Oh, great. Great. Yeah. I love, uh, you know, one of the things I like doing with my podcast, I, for years, you know, growing up in corrections, you'd hear those old timers say, you know, if I'd have wrote it down, I'd have a book. Well, they never did. So any of those stories that we can collect, you know, that people could pass on, like you talked about earlier, that's such valuable information, you know, so Great, great. That you're doing that. I'm, I'm looking forward to seeing that. Um, yeah. So tell me where people can get ahold of you.
Anthony Gangi 01:02:11 Well, you know, you got the, the Tier Talk YouTube channel. I, I pretty much respond to every comment on that comes through the page or the YouTube channel. And then, uh, Facebook, I'm all over Facebook. Uh, I have, uh, a profile page, even though we're maxed out, I can't take any more friends, uh, people can still follow. And then I comment pretty much anybody that messages me on Facebook or email gangianthony@yahoo.com.
Michael Cantrell 01:02:35 Excellent. Like I said, I, I've been excited about doing this, excited about meeting you and, uh, getting to talk to you. So I hope we can do this again. And, uh, maybe on this next book, we'll, we'll sit down and have a talk.
Anthony Gangi 01:02:47 Yeah. And I'll have you on my show.
Michael Cantrell 01:02:49 Okay. That sounds good. <laugh> <laugh>, thank you
Anthony Gangi 01:02:53 So much for having me. I'm, I'm honored, brother. Thank you.
Michael Cantrell 01:02:56 You. Yeah, you have a great day. Bye-bye. You too, sir.