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The Prison Officer Podcast
The Prison Officer Podcast is a place where prison officers and correctional staff share their experiences, discuss leadership, cope with stress, and learn survival strategies for one of the toughest careers out there. Hosted by Michael Cantrell, this podcast delves into the lives, dreams, and challenges faced by those who work inside the walls of our nation’s prisons. It features interviews, insights, and discussions related to the unique and demanding world of corrections. Whether it’s overcoming difficult leaders, understanding rehabilitation, or addressing misconceptions about incarcerated populations, the Prison Officer Podcast provides valuable perspectives from professionals in the field.
The Prison Officer Podcast
99: Honoring a Legacy in Corrections - Interview w/Conor Fredericks
Join us for an insightful conversation with Connor Fredericks, a South Carolina Department of Corrections CERT Commander. In our exploration of corrections, we focus on the unique challenges correctional officers face, particularly those in CERT positions. Connor's career shift from night shift police work to corrections presents a compelling narrative about adaptability and the value of strategic decision-making. Our discussion sheds light on the impact of strong leadership and the analytical demands of intelligence work, giving listeners a glimpse into Connor's multifaceted career.
Conor also talks about recently being assaulted and critically stabbed by an inmate, his recovery, and the mindset that saved him.
The episode concludes with a heartfelt tribute to Connor's father, whose 33-year commitment to corrections profoundly influenced his son's career.
56: Lead, Trust, and Care About Your Staff - Interview w/Arthur Fredericks
From crowd control to cell extractions, the PepperBall system is the safe, non-lethal option.
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Take care of each other and Be Safe behind those walls and fences!
In more than 28 years of corrections, I have used or supervised Pepperball hundreds of times. Now, as a master instructor for Pepperball, I teach others about the versatility and effectiveness of the Pepperball system. From cell extractions to disturbances on the rec yard, pepperball is the first option in my correctional toolbox. With ranges up to 150 feet and hoppers that can hold 160 rounds, pepperball is perfect for controlling large crowds or group disturbances on your yard. Pepperball allows for non-lethal direct impact to control inmates who refuse to comply with lawful orders, and area saturation allows you to achieve buffer zones between groups or use it for area denial to keep inmates away from security equipment and other accessible areas. To learn more about Pepperball, go to wwwpepperballcom or click the link below. In this show's information guide, pepperball is the safer option first. Well, hello and welcome back to the Prison Officer Podcast. My name is Mike Cantrell and today I have a guest, connor Fredericks. He is a CERT Commander with the South Carolina Department of Corrections.
Speaker 1:Connor is a Marine Corps Special Operations veteran with 10 years of combined military and law enforcement experience In the military. He completed two deployments. One is a member of a Marine Special Operations team where he served as a Joint Terrorism Task Force with the 75th Ranger Regiment in Afghanistan. He was also a police officer. He received a Medal of Valor in 2022 for rescuing approximately 100 people from a structure fire at an apartment complex. Additionally, he's trained in criminal interdiction, proactive patrol tactics, advanced interview, interrogation, and is experienced in small unit tactics, leadership and intelligence gathering. So I'm really looking forward to talking to Connor today and learning a little bit about him. First, I want to say thank you for your service Appreciate it.
Speaker 1:I appreciate it. I know the country appreciates it. Yes, sir, so we haven't met before. This is wonderful. I interviewed your father back in Episode 56, arthur Frederick. So I think one of the things I always start at the beginning you know how'd you grow up? But tell me about how you grew up, because you were there around corrections, my kids. We've talked about this. It's not necessarily the easiest thing to do, but the difference is you kind of followed his footsteps. So I'm interested Tell me about growing up with a correctional officer.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I've kind of lived all over the country. My father was working for the Federal Bureau of Prisons, so I mean, every time he took a promotion we found ourselves moving to a new state. For the most part. So I've really been north to south, east to west, all over the country, and at one point we even moved all the way from California over to Charleston, south Carolina. And when we were living in Massachusetts at the time my father was working at an FCI up there and I was playing a pretty high level of hockey and my hockey skill set didn't exactly match my academic skill set and so I kind of had to make a decision on whether or not I wanted to try and go to college or, you know, whether I wanted to join the military, really what I wanted my life to kind of look like once I turned 18. Really, I didn't even have to wait till 18. I had, you know, parental consent at 17 to join the military.
Speaker 2:So I joined the Marine Corps at 17 years old, initially, started out as an intelligence specialist by trade, and I spent about two and a half years with my first unit. I ended up deploying once on a special purpose MAGTF over to Sicily in Africa where we were supporting various logistical missions going on over there. And then, thankfully, I had some really really strong non-commissioned officers and leadership above me at the time because I was a junior Marine and that kind of helped shape and, you know, really launched the trajectory of my career when I got back, which is when I was assessed and selected for Marine Special Operations Command and then I went through that whole selection process pretty lengthy and then was assigned down to the team level and then I ended up completing a deployment to Afghanistan with that team, like you mentioned previously, and then, once I got back from Afghanistan, I kind of juggled my options a little bit. The Marine Corps is pretty. I wouldn't trade my experience for the world.
Speaker 1:I absolutely love it and I even thought about going after it. What's an intelligence specialist? For those of us that don't know what? What does that job entail?
Speaker 2:Um, it can. It can entail a number of different things. Um, it can, you know, they kind of, they kind of pitch it to you when you're in the recruiting office is like you're going to go in and be James Bond. I think it was a little bit different than that A lot of you know some office work, some paperwork and then managing a couple of secured facilities and things like that.
Speaker 1:So interrogations, interviews kind of detective work.
Speaker 2:It's a little bit of that. I would say. Okay, you know, as an intelligence specialist it was more of like an analytical job, a lot of intelligence analysis, so kind of doing risk-based assessments and things like that, and just conducting various intelligence-related analyses on specific geographical locations. So when I was supporting that mission in Africa, a lot of it was looking at the threats in that region and what could potentially pose a threat to our forces that were over there, forces that were over there Um. And then it kind of quickly changed once I joined the special operations side of the house and, um, I was basically trained in multiple different um aspects of intelligence. Um, and I can't really get into you know exactly what all of that was, um, but, uh, you know, thankfully I had the. I had a lot of really really strong leaders that kind of helped me get to that point. Um, you know, and they kind of explained to me that you know the world is kind of your oyster.
Speaker 2:You know, as a junior Marine, you know when you're in the Marine Corps you can really kind of map out and plan out how your career wants to go. It's really all up to you and you know what your motivation level is, and so, you know, I got back stateside after my first deployment and really started working on, like, my physical fitness, obviously, because the selection process for special operations is pretty, you know, physically intensive as well as, you know, mentally demanding as well. So I really really kind of, you know, try to drill down all of those aspects so I could go into selection with a clear head and, you know, feel like I could really compete with those around me, because you're not only being, you know, assessed by the, you know, the Marines that are at the command, you're being assessed by your peers as well, and they do, you know, you do like peer evals throughout the entire process and everything like that. So, you know there's a term of being peered out, which is basically, you know, if your peers don't think that you're capable of being on the teams or being in that type of environment, you know you can be removed from training, just from that, let alone, you know your actual physical and mental ability. So, um, sure, sure, I got back from Afghanistan after my deployment in 2019 and I ultimately made the decision to get out, you know, and it was, it was kind of a tough decision for me because I really, really, really enjoyed what I was doing at the time.
Speaker 2:But I kind of wanted to find a balance between, you know, finding something that I really enjoy with also being closer to home. I lost a lot of time at home while I was in. I spent 15 months out of my five years overseas. So you combine that with different training, evolutions and holidays that you miss out on, it kind of catches up to you. And I think my body was also another factor in that. And I think when you talk about the amount of physical preparation that it takes for a special operations deployment, let alone when you're actually over there, you know, I kind of tried to factor in like can I really do this for 20 years? Can I even do this for another five, you know? And of course, I got out and ended up choosing law enforcement, so, which I didn't realize, you know, at the time, was going to be just as physically demanding, if not more. So I became police officer shortly after I got out, I think it was right around November.
Speaker 1:So what was it? What was it that drew you to law enforcement? Was it what you'd seen growing up, or just what you knew, or something specific.
Speaker 2:Honestly, it had nothing to do with, um, my father's career choice. Um, I really didn't know a whole lot about corrections or about the profession of of law enforcement. Um, you know, growing up I wouldn't say that my dad kind of hid, you know things from us, but there were certain aspects of the jobs that he wouldn't talk about and I think that that's knowing what I know now. I think that that's pretty pertinent when you, you know, have children and everything like that. You know you don't want to expose them to a certain level of, you know, violence or whatever it may be. So I think he did his best to try and do that.
Speaker 2:But I think for me, like, what drew me to law enforcement was just the aspect of service. I really enjoy service, public service, and you know kind of the good versus evil mindset, you know what I mean. I think that I really found a passion for that when I was in the military especially. You know I wasn't, you know I was a little kid when 9-11 happened, so I don't really have the fondest memory of the day and everything like that. Um, but you know, you see it and you learn about it growing up and I think it was kind of an easy decision for me to you know kind of want to be a part of, you know our mission. To you know, go get the people that are responsible, um, and and even for attacks that occurred since 9-11. So you know, just like that good versus evil mindset and just service is really kind of what drew me to the profession.
Speaker 1:How'd you find the transition from coming out of that much time in the military to coming into law enforcement? Did it feel comfortable, or was it a real change for you?
Speaker 2:It was a real change, I think. You know it was amazing to me to see the parallels between military service and law enforcement and I think there's, you know, a lot that can be drawn from each. And you know I think people look at law enforcement as kind of a paramilitary you know organization or you know paramilitary style profession, and I think it can be, depending on you know, what mindset that you, you know, kind of apply to your work. And you know we'll go in depth a little bit about that later when we talk about the actual incident. But I think it was a relatively smooth transition, just with some kind of tweaks on how to do the actual job of a police officer to start and then obviously kind of transitioning into corrections shortly thereafter.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so when you get to corrections, I know, tell me about this before we move forward this Medal of Valor. You got to tell me that story, that you got while you were a police officer. That's interesting.
Speaker 2:So I served four years as a police officer, every single minute. Pretty much of my time as a cop was on night shift, which I really enjoyed. My time as a cop was on night shift, which I really enjoyed.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 2:I didn't really realize that I would enjoy it at the time. So I kind of you know, when you start out as a rookie you don't really have a whole lot of say as to what your shift is going to be, whether it's going to be day shift or night shift. I think I would say for the majority of agencies that I worked at, you know the younger guys that don't really necessarily have families or any of those like crazy obligations yet usually get tailored more towards the night shift crowd. And so I started in. I was working 6 pm to 6 am so I had to completely switch my sleep schedule around and everything like that, which wasn't too much of a challenge. I mean, obviously, once you kind of live that military life for a little while and your sleep just gets flipped upside down. It wasn't the biggest transition to that, but I really really, really enjoyed the work.
Speaker 2:And I think one of the things that most people don't realize about law enforcement, especially when we're talking about police officers, is you have no idea what goes on at the hours of midnight to six in the morning in your own community. Most people are asleep in their bed thinking about when they're going to get up for work in the morning and don't realize, you know, the people that are out there preying on society at night and acts of violence. So, um, I really got kind of thrown into the wolves in that regard. You know, I lived in in a community that's kind of just a sleepy old town in South Carolina and, uh, you know, most people think it's Mayberry whenever they're, you know, up and walking around during the day and have no idea you know no idea the things that go on at night.
Speaker 2:So, um, I worked for, uh, three separate agencies.
Speaker 2:I was a canine handler at two of them and, uh, the third agency, the last agency that I worked at before I'd started in corrections, uh, was up in Somerville, um, and I absolutely loved it. I think it had a little bit of everything, um, you know, within the town. You know it's kind of a town but it's also kind of a city based on population. I mean, the population is pretty, pretty substantial and the amount of like through traffic and everything. The town kind of gave you a little bit of everything in terms of crime. And I was just, it was like three in the morning, I think it was like the end of September, and I had I had only been with the agency maybe like three weeks. You know, I already had probably three years of tenure at this point as a cop. So you know, switching agencies isn't really you know anything at that point. But, uh, I'd only been with a specific agency for like maybe a week or two and, uh, you know we got a call like three in the morning that there was a, a structure fire, and sometimes, you know, as a cop, you'll get a structure fire and it's like, okay, maybe someone's grill caught on fire or know, maybe it's just a small fire that's got a little bit out of control in the backyard. So I was on, I was with my field training officer at the at that time because, you know, once you start with a new agency, they kind of put you with a field training officer, so you kind of get the layout of the town and get the layout of whatever you know reporting system and things like that that they use, sure. So I was driving and he was in the passenger seat and, uh, I actually drove past the building that was on fire. I didn't, I didn't see it for some reason. I don't know if I got tunnel vision or what it was, um, but we had turned, we had turned back around and we pulled into the apartment complex and an entire building was fully engulfed in flames.
Speaker 2:Um, so you know it's funny because I say there's, you know, such a correlation between military and law enforcement experience. But you know, one of the things they teach in the military is kind of taking a combat pause, you know, whenever you're in a stressful situation, and kind of just take a pause real quick, you know, evaluate your, you know the situation as it is, and kind of come up with a you know formulate a plan in your mind as a plan of action, what you're going to do. That's exactly what I did. I mean, we both got out of the car and we just kind of paused there for a minute. And my field training officer he's a former Marine as well, so I think that was kind of a unique connection that we both had showing up for that call. But we just we took a breath, we looked at it for what it was and it was. It was absolutely wild to see in person. I've never seen a fire that big in my life.
Speaker 2:And then we just kind of went to work. We started pulling people out off of balconies. People were jumping from windows and we were catching them as they were jumping from windows and we were breaking windows with our batons trying to enter and the amount of smoke was unbelievable. I think two or three of the guys on my shift ended up having to go to the hospital immediately after for smoke inhalation. Um, and we just we did whatever we could to evacuate and I think one of the um aggravating circumstances at that particular call was that night it was super windy. Um, it had to. It had to have been 15, 20 mile an hour, you know gusts of wind, and so it was just carrying embers and carrying the fire to other buildings. So I think by the time all was said and done, there was two or three buildings that were almost fully engulfed, and so you know it's a total loss for people that are living there.
Speaker 2:So in that moment you know you're trying to obviously save their life and rescue them, but you're also trying to provide a little bit of comfort, you know, to people who are literally losing everything right before their eyes and they can't really do anything about it, so you know we stayed there until the Red Cross got there and the Red Cross ended up showing up and, you know, handing out blankets and stuff like that, and then we kind of let the fire department do their work and put it out, and I mean it took several, several hours to put it out. But, yeah, ultimately, me and a couple of my guys, we were awarded the Medal of Valor for our efforts that night. It was a super cool experience to kind of go through that with all the guys on your shift. You know, I think you, you know, when you're out there in a fast paced environment like that on the street, you know you don't really get to kind of slow down and appreciate the guys that are to your left and to your right, you know.
Speaker 2:So I think it was cool to see and I really can't speak any higher of the guys I was with on that night and really a lot of the men and women that I've served with throughout my law enforcement career. I think you know I didn't really know what to expect, going into a career like that, of the people that I was going to be surrounded with, but I've really met some like lifelong friends and some really really good friends and I think when you talk about you know the aspects of the job and when it becomes, you know, like a life or death, you know situation at a moment's notice. Um, you really, you know, find a good appreciation for those around you that are, that are there in those moments with you.
Speaker 1:Sure, yeah, I've. I've compared it in on this um podcast. You know the bonding experience that happens in corrections in law enforcement, in situations like that has to be the same kind of bonding experience that happens in combat you know because yeah, it's. It's your life in their hands and their, their life in your hands did you have? Any loss of life at all or in the fire.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we did, we had. We had two that ended up that weren't able to make it.
Speaker 2:I think they were in like the most heavily affected area and, uh, you know the they kind of ended up getting trapped inside and ended up, you know, dying of smoke inhalation and I think that that was kind of what hit the shift the hardest, you know, and I had some buddies that were pretty torn up about it and I think it's just, you know, it's one of those things where you, when you're there to preserve life, and life ends up getting lost anyways. You know you can count the hundred plus people that you saved as a win, but you still, in the back of your mind, are kind of like, you know, thinking that there's a little bit of a loss there, sure, and you know you try your best to get everyone out and you know, if you can't, then that's, you know, unfortunately that's the nature of the job.
Speaker 1:Right, right, wow. What a great story. Story. I mean, you lived it. But so tell me about so. Next you went into corrections, yeah, and you went into South Carolina Yep, south Carolina Department of Corrections. Tell me a little bit about South Carolina Department of Corrections. How big is that? How many institutions? I don't know.
Speaker 2:I believe it's 21 institutions and it's about, I want to say, 15 or 16,000 inmates, population wise, and then I think there's about probably three to 4,000 staff that work across the state. I I initially had no idea that I was going to be in corrections. I had no honestly after being a police officer and I and I just absolutely adored it. I loved the job so much. I had no honestly after being a police officer and I just absolutely adored it. I loved the job so much I never thought that I would really cross that path.
Speaker 2:Unfortunately, I had a family member of mine get really sick with cancer and while I was working night shift and I was kind of weighing my my options with that, because, you know, when you're on night shift it's very tough to, you know, wake up in the middle of the day and kind of be active and be present.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean and I really wanted to be there for my family at that time. You know it was just a very tough time for my family as a whole. So my dad, you know, had reached out and he said hey, you know, I really think you'd like this job with, uh, you know, the corrections department and uh, it was a correctional emergency response team commander position and, um, he's like I think this is right up your alley, I mean based on you know your military service and your, your background in law enforcement already. Um, he's like I think this would be this would be right up your alley. And so, um it was. It was a lieutenant's position, with lieutenant's pay that was about a $20,000 increase from what I was making on the street, which for me, it was never really about the money anyways. Um, but it was certainly nice to have that, that much of a bump.
Speaker 2:Um and, you know, during a time where my family was kind of struggling, um, I had just started, uh, dating my now wife at the time too, um and uh, so it provided a lot more stability in my home and family life. Um, you know, because even she was, you know, we were together when, uh, you know, probably the last like five, six months of me being a police officer on night shift and it was hard for her to kind of adjust to my schedule. You know, because she's waking up in the middle of the day and, um, you know, I'm getting home at 6 AM and going right to bed. Um, so I, I'm getting home at 6 am and going right to bed. So I took it, I took the job, I went and interviewed and I think I did pretty well in my interview.
Speaker 2:I was, you know, I don't think there was many other 26 year old lieutenants at the time when I joined the agency, especially in the position that I was being hired for. But you know, I think you know the agency kind of took a look at my military background and you know my background as a police officer too, and they thought it was a good fit as well. So I took the job and I think a lot of what helped was, you know, having a, you know, 33 year plus tenured correctional professional in my household. So I can't lie, I was scared to death to walk into a prison?
Speaker 1:That's kind of my question what were some of the preconceived notions that you had that either evaporated or you went wow, that's not the way it is.
Speaker 2:I think the inherent danger scared me a little bit, which for whatever reason, I don't know why, because frankly it was no more dangerous than what I was dealing with on the street at the time. But I think it was the confinement aspect of it, and once those sliding doors close behind you, that's it, you're in there.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean and that can do a lot for people, that can really change their perspective on it. And that can be it. Those doors might close behind you and you're like, nope, can't do it, can't do the job. You know, and I had no idea. You know what I was really kind of walking into. And then, you know, I went and toured the facility that I was actually going to be working at, and I think that was actually even before I applied.
Speaker 2:I went and toured the facility and my father went with me. You know, just kind of kind of show me around and show me what the environment was like. And once I got in there and realized that you know, these guys that are, you know, incarcerated here are no different than the guys that I'm dealing with out on the street right now, I was kind of like, oh well, I mean this isn't, this isn't so bad. I mean, you know, I think the difference is when you're a police officer and you're dealing with a, you know, noncompliant suspect that you just arrested, and you're dealing with a noncompliant suspect that you just arrested, well, you've only got to get them to the county jail and they're out of your hands. You go back to the station and type in reports with your buddies, versus dealing with them for an entire eight-hour shift when you're actually inside of a correctional facility.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've got a friend of mine that's a police officer and he always tells me he's fascinated with prisons and he says man, I don't know how you walk in there. I said man, I don't know how you walk up on a car and not know whether it's a good guy or a bad guy. I know what I'm dealing with you don't.
Speaker 2:So, it's just what you're used to, and it's weird because you know, like Of all the people that I've encountered on both sides of the wall, the people that work in the correction facility don't necessarily want to go out and be police officers.
Speaker 2:None of the police officers that I work with want to go in and work in a prison. Absolutely, they would say the same thing to me Once I got out of policing. They were like I don't know how you do it. I'm like, listen, man, it's not that much different than what you're dealing with. But I can honestly tell you that out of probably 90% of the police officers I work with, I don't I don't think they would set foot in a correctional facility. Um, I just, I just don't, um, and it's it's weird to say that, um, now that I've seen both sides of it, um, but I think some people one.
Speaker 2:I think they're just meant for police work versus corrections. And I think that you know you have to have a certain level of culture about you. You know you got to be able to, you know, interact with certain groups of people that you otherwise might not interact with on a daily basis if you're going to walk in a correctional facility. And so I think having that background as a police officer and having you know the military background where I've gone and experienced so many different you know cultures and dealt with different groups of people, it really helped me kind of going into that environment and being able to relate with people off the bat, you know, and kind of build rapport, you know and function in that environment.
Speaker 1:Right. So tell me about this job. How many teams, how many members? I mean? What did you do? They brought you in just to be a CERT commander at one institution, or is that over a bunch?
Speaker 2:So there's several teams. They only exist at maximum security institutions. I think that's just due to the nature of the population that you deal with within those respective institutions and I think that every single one that has a team needs a team. They need that team to exist there to in order to help, you know, quell violence and, and you know, neutralize disturbances that are occurring. Um, but they had, uh, the team that I was on, that I joined, I think at the time, had uh four people. I was going to be the fifth.
Speaker 2:So each team is outfitted with five, um, certain commanders. It's the same job title for for everyone across the board, and there's obviously a team leader. And then you know there's, you know there's specific duties within the team that you fill. You know whether it be the less lethal munitions operator, or you know whether you're in charge of equipment or whether you're in charge of tactics and everything like that. Okay, so everyone has kind of their own role that they fill, but at the same time, you're kind of like a Swiss army knife within the institution.
Speaker 2:You should be able to, you know, fulfill the duties of any regular line staff member, should you be needed or if one of your teammates is not at the institution that day, or whether they're off or you know they're spending time with family, you should be able to, you know, fulfill their duties as well, and I found that to be a very similar environment to you know, the one that I operated in when I was with the teams in the Marine Corps. You know, when you're in special operations, it's no different. You're expected to function at a very high level and you're expected to pick up the slack from someone else if they're not there, if they're not able to perform their duties to, you know, the best of their abilities. So, you know, started out, started on the team that I was working at.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 2:I really really really enjoyed what I was doing. And then I was working at one maximum security facility and then there was another maximum security facility a couple hours away. That was kind of struggling at the time and they were kind of struggling building their team up. They never really had a fully staffed team. I think the max that they may have ever had was four um, which obviously the full staffing is five um. When I got there I think we only had three um and I think we only ever got up to four um and then by the time you know the incident happened to me, we were back down to three uh when I left, uh, the institution that day.
Speaker 1:So um, because why do you? Why do you think? Cause I find that interesting, the um that you were having trouble filling the team slots. Is that that demanding of a job that not everybody wanted it? Was it the danger of that institution? Why do you?
Speaker 2:think I think it's a combination of things really.
Speaker 2:I think, um, I think the dangers of the job are a little bit elevated in a position like that. You know, I think, when your sole purpose every day is to go in and quell inmate violence, you know you're going to deter a lot of people right off the bat with something like that, because you know there's a lot of officers. You know they want to go in and avoid that confrontation at all costs, and rightfully so they're outnumbered. You know about 99% go in and avoid that confrontation at all costs, and rightfully so they're outnumbered. You know about 99% of the time. So when you're that 1% of the 1% that's supposed to go in and confront that violence, you know head on, so to speak, most of the time I think it can kind of be a deterrent.
Speaker 2:But I think it's also one of those unique jobs where a lot of the people you know that are within the agency lack the skill set or the necessary experience for that job.
Speaker 2:So it's kind of hard to get applicants in the door Like I know that that. I don't know if if they're still doing it now or whether they were doing at the time, but I think you had to have at least a certain amount of law enforcement experience or prior military service to even apply for the position, and I think that that's just kind of given the job itself and when you talk about you know small team tactics and utilizing less lethal weapons and everything like that like you've got to be really proficient in what you do, and so it was just kind of a difficult applicant pool for them to kind of figure out, and I don't think the team that I was on is filled yet either, even to this point right now. So they're still struggling and I think that you just have to target the right applicant pool and I think you could probably outfit all those teams effectively. I just don't know that that's what they're getting to apply for those positions just yet.
Speaker 1:Interesting. So what's a day like? I mean from my experience at the institutions I've worked, are you doing use of forces? Are you going in and sell, okay, and are you responding to stuff on the yard?
Speaker 2:Yep, responding to stuff on the yard, responding to stuff in the housing units. I think every day is truly different, which is one of the things that I enjoyed about the job, and I think that that's just because, you know, in a correctional setting things can go from right to left really, really quickly, and so, you know, most of the day to day duties are kind of, you know, all functions of security, like I said, like a Swiss Army knife. You're going in and you're checking locks, you're checking cameras, you're checking fences, you're checking the rooftops of buildings to ensure that everything is, you know, secured properly. You're conducting random shakedowns on the yard. You know you're conducting yard presence, you know during feeding times and everything like that, where there's large amounts of inmates on the yard and everything like that, and you're kind of, you know, a force multiplier on the yard, and then, on top of that, you're also responding to incidents on the yard or incidents within the housing units.
Speaker 2:And then you know there's also like an intelligence gathering kind of aspect of this too, which was good for me, given my background and I, you know, I'm very well versed in all of that. So you know that was one of the portions of the job that I enjoyed the most kind of, you know, gathering intelligence on the inmate populace and everything like that, and we work directly for the warden. So at every institution we work directly for the warden and that's the direct supervisor. And so your whole job, so to speak, is basically to report back to the warden on the security posture of the institution, and your job every day is to go in and increase that posture in whatever way you possibly can.
Speaker 1:Interesting. So I mean where I've worked before we had shakedown crews, which sounds like a lot of that intelligence gathering, checking the locks, security stuff. But I've always seen where we just grabbed whoever was available for use of forces. So I'm wondering if the thought process there that if I have this set group of guys who are trained very well in doing cell extractions, less liability, less injuries, less is that kind of the thought process.
Speaker 2:I think that is the thought process, but, you know, I think I think that there's a a better way to utilize the team, so to speak. A better way to utilize the team, so to speak, and um, I say that because you know a lot of what I saw, um is like a lack of corrections, one-on-one, so to speak. Um, you know, by, and it's by empowering a team to go in and kind of do this Swiss army knife function of everything, a little bit of everything, you kind of diminish the ability of your line staff, right, and so then it becomes a well, you know this, inmate's, you know, being argumentative with me. Okay, we'll call CERT. Well, is that really a CERT function, or do you need to deescalate the situation as best as you possibly can, maybe call for assistance and then, kind of, you know, go from there right, Like it shouldn't be, I'm arguing with an inmate, and then we're going to jump right to an A-level response, down to a unit with an emergency response team, Because what you have then is you have a team whose you know function is a little bit more than that, going down to a situation that they otherwise might not have to, and then their attention is being directed elsewhere, while something else could be going on in the institution, and so it's one of those things that you, as a CERT you know commander, and as a CERT operator, you kind of have to, you know, think in the back of your mind well, if I'm going down to handle this situation, could they the inmate population potentially be jumping off another situation across the yard and I'm then not going to be able to respond to as effectively?
Speaker 2:But, I think by empowering your line staff and you know, kind of allowing them to do those corrections 101 functions, then you can eliminate a lot of the riffraff, so to speak. Or you know less important incidents Not that any incident is particularly unimportant, but there's definitely a pecking order as to what a CERT team should be responding to versus you know what they're actually responding to no.
Speaker 1:It's fascinating because it and I'll tell a quick story here. So there was a time I was working at an institution and I saw an inmate who was checking out a female officer as she walked away Right. So I snag him up, I walk him over to the corner. I'm like, dude, you're not going to do that here. We don't put up with that, move on, I don't want to see it again. Well then, afterwards I went and told her and I said, hey, this happened. I told him this and then she got upset and I was why are you upset? She said cause you took away my power. I should have been involved in that.
Speaker 1:And so it kind of sounds like you know that that's kind of the same thing. Why not let that officer deal with it? Right then and there, because if you bring in somebody else, then you're taking their power away. Same with the officer who says inmate, you can't do that, because the warden says you can't. That's not the way you deal with inmates. You can't do that because that's the way I run my housing unit.
Speaker 2:Exactly. You can't do that because that's the way I run my housing unit Exactly, and I think that it's no different than when I was working the street and you'd have a supervisor or you'd have another officer show up to your scene and take over, take over questioning people, take over dealing with other people, and then you're kind of like one. It can be good and bad because they might have a good rapport with you and then your supervisor shows up on scene and they don't have a good rapport with them and then the situation goes left really quick, whereas you know, if you just allow your people to to perform their job duties, you know you might get a more desired result. And then, you know, by empowering your, your line staff and your, you know, lower level officers, corporal sergeants, whatever, um, you're allowing them to excel within the profession, you're allowing them to to develop those skills that they'll eventually need to become a supervisor one day.
Speaker 1:So Absolutely that's. That's a great way to look. So, while we're talking about leadership type stuff, so tell me some of the um leadership that cause you were in a position where you were able to, you know, lead others. So tell me some of your leadership thoughts. What, what is it that? Uh, when you're putting together a team, when you're putting together a group, what is it that you're looking for in those guys?
Speaker 2:I think, um, when it comes to like team building and, and you know, developing a team of strong people, you know you want to um one, you want to mold them and you kind of want to, you know, develop their abilities, but you also want everyone to lean on everyone else's abilities. So if I'm excelling at one thing, you know whether I'm maybe I'm excelling at shakedowns really well I'm. I'm able to shake down a group of inmates on the yard and there's another officer who's a little bit more hesitant, are, you know, maybe they have a little bit of fear and they might just be scared, and I've encountered that, you know, I can't tell you how many times, but so you go over there and you assist, you help them out or show them how to effectively shake someone down, and by doing that you're going to build up those people around you so that you're all operating effectively, and then it becomes kind of a well-oiled machine. You know, I think another thing that I look, that I particularly would look for in, you know, other officers, is you know, carry your weight. You show up to work today, give me an honest eight hours of work, whatever that honest eight hours of work looks like. Just just show up to work and do your job as effectively as possible.
Speaker 2:You know, like it's not that, it's not that I would look down on other officers, but if you're calling me to handle something that you can handle yourself, then we got to have a conversation about that. We got to, we got to figure out what is the way forward. How can we get you to handle this situation without me being present, because I'm not always going to be here, and that was one of the things that I tried to impress upon the other officers. You know, whenever I was at work because I work a C-card schedule I was Monday through Friday, eight to four. So I'm not, I'm not going to be there on the weekends and I'm not going to be there after hours. So how can we get you to operate effectively when you can't call for cert anymore, because once that four o'clock, five o'clock timeframe comes around, you're not going to be able to call for cert anymore because the team's going to be leaving the institution for the day and the population knows that. The inmate population knows when we show up to work and when we leave. You know what I mean and a lot of that you know we had as a team. You know we have to flex our hours, you know, a lot of the time, because they start to pick up on it. But you know the overarching lesson there being that you know you got to be able to operate effectively when I'm not here, because if an inmate, you know, sets a fire in his cell in the middle of the night, well who's going to extract them and who's going to take them to RHU? It's not going to be served, and I live two hours away from the institution. So don't call me at six o'clock at night telling me to come take someone to RHU. I'm not going to be there, I won't even be there in time.
Speaker 2:So, really, just empowering those that are around you, I think that, as a young leader, you have to and you have to, enable those that are around you to do their job effectively and you also have to be able to, you know, hold people accountable when they're not, when they're not doing it effectively.
Speaker 2:I think, as as a profession and as a society for that matter, we've kind of gotten away from that, that holding people accountable and holding people's feet to the fire, you know, in in the game of law enforcement and in the game of corrections. It's life or death. It really is life or death. You know, and I've I've found that you know, and I've found that you know to be the case pretty personally at this point. So you know, I think you know, when you deal with those circumstances on a regular basis, you have to impress that upon those that are around you because I think, once you get into a correctional setting, I think there is a lot of complacency, really law enforcement in general, but I think you know, in a correctional setting, you know particularly, there's a lot of complacency. Um, and as, as the old saying goes, complacency kills, right?
Speaker 1:Absolutely, absolutely, it does. So let me ask you a question. I didn't. I didn't preview this with you, but you're one of the younger guys I've had on the show. How old are you? If you don't want to, 28, 28. Okay, perfect. I've had a lot of older guys on the show, and so what I hear this these days is that new generation. You know they're like this new generation. So I want to hear from you, being younger and coming up in this, what is it that you see? What's the what's the challenges being put there by the older generation? Does that make sense?
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely. Um, you know, my generation is the Y generation, and I say the Y generation because we always ask why. You know, the old school way of you're going to do this because I told you to do it, for whatever reason, doesn't fly with my generation. I'm pretty good at it because I served in the military. There really is no option at that point. So you know.
Speaker 2:But I think providing guidance and kind of providing what the outlook is or what the mission is or what the particular goal in that moment or period of time is, is important to people that are my age and that are within my generation. The why of why we do things matters. It's not, you know, because that's the way we've always done it, and I can't tell you how many times I've heard that too. Right, that's the way we've always done it. Well, why do we do it that way? Right?
Speaker 2:And then you have a more authoritarian style leader in the older generation, and it's not necessarily their fault. I mean, they were taught to lead and, you know, taught to be that way themselves. So, but providing that why and giving the guidance and not kind of holding all the cards close to your chest the majority of people in my generation. They want to be led, they want to be fed the information, they want to be in the know and they want to have the tools to succeed. So when they feel like their ideas are kind of minimalized, then they're going to look elsewhere for employment. To be honest with you, they got to know that there's a level of buy-in and that they're able to go in and kind of operate by themselves without being micromanaged or or not given a reason or an explanation as to as to what they're doing and why they do it.
Speaker 2:You know, and I think in a correctional setting it's important as well, Just, you know. Going back to what we're talking about, with it being life and death, right, Well, I need you to secure these specific doors at this specific time. Well, why Well? Why Well? Because if you don't, then this might happen or that might happen, and it seems silly that you would have to explain those things. But I think that it's just important for context and I think my generation's kind of big on that. We need the context and we need a little bit of the why as to what we're doing, and it serves a good purpose in terms of your motivation and your camaraderie with those around you. Once you're all buying into the same mission and you know what that specific mission is, you're going to be more inclined to want to go into work every day and complete it.
Speaker 1:Those are great answers and I welcome the why I truly do? Because for many, many decades, before I even came along, we did it because we were told to do it. It's because somebody else told them to do it. A lot of stuff got put to the side and we didn't know why. You know some of the, some of my wise, I didn't catch on till till 10 years in, when I saw it myself somebody get hurt or somebody escape or something happened. So, um, I think absolutely we need to pay attention to those wise. What are the questions they're asking and how can we answer these questions? And are they? Are they being answered correctly, Right, and are our policies falling within that? I think we can learn as much from them as what they'll learn from us coming up in there.
Speaker 2:Well, and I think, like one of the other issues that I've kind of dealt with throughout my career in law enforcement is it's a saying that resonates pretty strongly in my head and it's well, military guys or prior service guys don't really last year and it's you know. My question to that is why have we asked the question? Because, as far as I'm concerned, if guys with prior military service aren't surviving with an agency, then we need to ask ourselves what we're doing wrong as an agency. You know and it's not to say, it's not to get on my high horse and talk about how every person who's ever served in the military is the greatest thing since sliced bread. I think we all know that that's not the case.
Speaker 2:I think we all know that the military is kind of a microcosm of society and there's, you know, there's bad people, just like there is on the street.
Speaker 2:There's people that get arrested in the military, there's people that get dishonorably discharged, right, but I think the majority of what we're seeing, as far as you know, veterans who are applying to be in corrections and be in law enforcement are people that want to continue their service and that are genuinely doing it for the right reasons.
Speaker 2:And so we got to look at ourselves as a profession and say, why are we not making the mark on that? Because I can tell you, the environment that I look for in a law enforcement agency or in the profession of law enforcement itself is one of camaraderie and teamwork and brotherhood and something that kind of emulates the same environment that you get in the military. And if you know you can't recreate that, then you're probably going to miss the mark when it comes to recruiting people like that. And you know, I also think there's a level of intangibles that you know veterans bring to the table, one of which is a moral and ethical compass that's a little bit higher than the average person. And I only say that because within the corrections system I think nationwide, there's a longstanding reputation of corruption amongst certain staff members, and I think you see it time and again, and I think when you deal particularly with prior service members, there's a lot less of that.
Speaker 1:Right, okay, yeah, why aren't we attracting the military? Because we always have before. I mean, you look at the guys coming out of World War II, the guys coming out of Korea, vietnam, you know, that was a good government job and I think you're right. I think they enjoyed the camaraderie and maybe still being in that paramilitary type organization.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and, like you know the fast-paced environment that law enforcement provides, and even corrections or policing, whatever it is, you know the environment that it provides is something that I think a lot of veterans would enjoy. I certainly enjoyed it. The guys that served with me that are paramilitary enjoyed it a lot. And you know we can't sit here and say that it's the fear of working in a correctional facility that's deterring our veterans from working here. If they're willing to go to combat and die for the country, I think they're willing to, you know, serve in a correctional facility. How do we make that a little bit more palatable for them so we can start, you know, bumping these?
Speaker 1:So I've kind of saved it, you know, so that we can talk about it. But recently you've had a pretty traumatic thing happen. That doesn't happen to everybody, we talk about it and it's something that everybody's aware of. And that was you were pretty badly assaulted recently. Can you tell me about that?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I was a pretty, pretty normal day at work, honestly. I think I got to work and everything at the institution was kind of functioning normally, to the best that I can describe it. And I received a call to assist another officer down one of the housing units, and I didn't know the full extent. I knew that she was dealing with an inmate who wasn't being the most cooperative, so to speak, and it kind of ties back into what we were talking about with what is a real emergency versus what is not.
Speaker 2:Now in a given situation in the institution. If I was physically there and able to help out, I would go help out to the best of my ability. If I thought it was something that I was capable of doing and it wouldn't put me in a messed up situation, I would go help to the best of my ability. And again, that kind of goes back to empowering those that are around you and kind of being there when it counts. So I went down to the housing unit to assist.
Speaker 2:The inmate was refusing to be secured behind his door. He wanted to come out for rec. I think he had already been out for rec for about an hour or so at that point. But he was giving her a hard time so she wanted him to go behind the door for the day. So I show up and he's refusing to let her close the door to the cell and secure it. So I had a little bit of rapport with the guy I hadn't really dealt with him too much, but it wasn't to the point where I thought it was going to be an issue and he told me that I could step in and secure the cell door, which you know. Normally you could take that as a pre-assault indicator if you know someone's telling you to do that, especially an inmate. But it's also not uncommon for you know an inmate to want to deal with one officer versus the other, especially if you know they've been arguing with an officer for the past half an hour before I show up and might not be too inclined to deal with her anymore.
Speaker 2:So and I think that it was, you know, one of those particular situations and I stepped in to close the door and he tried to physically remove me from the cell, at which time I used my chemical munitions, and then it turned into a physical fight. He and I were physically fighting and this occurred on the second tier of the units of the top tier and I noticed another inmate out of the corner of my eye attempting to kind of ambush me from the side. I was able to kind of maneuver around that attack and then kind of retreat in a different direction and ultimately I ended up with my back basically up against the wall of the top tier. And now I had these two inmates that were assaulting me and I noticed a third inmate come from my periphery and he ended up coming up on my left flank and he stabbed me in the abdomen and then he stabbed me twice over the top of my head. I didn't realize at the time, but I was told after the fact that I was also being struck with a lock and a sock that the initial inmate who I was dealing with he was the one that was striking me with it. So at this point it was a three-on-one. I had the other officer with me and she was doing the best that she could, but ultimately I was stabbed three times and struck in the face a bunch of the Loch Nessau and I told someone else recently I think at the moment it was kind of like an out-of-body experience. I never lost consciousness during it, so I have a very vivid recollection of it and I think, given the circumstances, it was a pretty intimate, up close and personal type encounter.
Speaker 2:I was able to, you know, fight off or escape the ambush somehow and I was able to walk out of the housing unit under my own power and while I was being escorted across the yard by another officer to our medical facility, I ended up collapsing on the yard and I didn't realize at the time, but I had a punctured lung from the initial stab wound in my abdomen. I couldn't see a whole lot. There was a lot of cross-contamination with the OC spray. I really couldn't see anything. I could just hear voices of other officers responding to the situation. Ultimately they got me to the situation and ultimately they got me to the medical facility and stabilized me there, and then I was trauma transported to the ER about 30 or 40 minutes away from the institution, where ultimately they were able to fully stabilize me, and then I started the recovery process from there.
Speaker 2:I think in the moment all I could really think about was my wife. I'm newly married, so about a month prior to this incident actually, a month exactly prior to this incident was when I got married, and then, two weeks prior to getting married, or two or three weeks prior to getting married, we found out that we have our first child on the way. Moment I uh, you know, that's all I could think about, um, when I was fighting, um, you know, and, and I was like I don't know what I got to do, but I got to get out of here.
Speaker 2:I said I don't, this isn't where I'm going out. I said, you know, I just I just said that in my mind and I was like you know this, this is what I got to do. And so, um, I was in the back of the ambulance Bray and I had handed the EMTs my work cell phone. I said here, call my wife and put it on speaker. And definitely the hardest phone call of my life, for sure. I told her that I was on my way to the hospital. I'd been stabbed up real bad, and I think that that's a phone call that nobody ever wants to have to make and I think it's the nightmare fuel that probably fills the heads of law enforcement families around the country.
Speaker 2:But she was the second one to the hospital. My dad actually beat her to the hospital. He was the first one there and then while I was recovering, I had numerous people pop in and out. I actually had the director of the entire agency. He popped up at about 9.30, 10 o'clock at night to visit me and he's great. I can't speak high enough about him and it really did a lot for my morale to kind of see him there and kind of talk through some things and just know that he's there and he cares about you and you know, you're not just a number in a body, sure sure?
Speaker 1:So I'm going to go back to the assault. It sounds like you probably walked into something they were preparing for. Anyway.
Speaker 2:if they had weapons ready to go, they knew that one of them wasn't going to go in or they were going to have a fight, and so and I think you know, since then I I I've done nothing but kind of Monday morning quarterback myself in that, in that moment, and I think that there's a healthy amount of that that you can do after a critical incident. And I think you know, based on everything that I've been through in both my military and law enforcement career, I'm really no stranger to a critical incident. You know what I mean. I think this is something that I've unfortunately been predisposed to throughout my career and it's unfortunate, but it's also, you know, a blessing in a way, because had I not been, you know, through so much, or had I not experienced so much up to my point in this you know this point in my career I think it goes a different way, right, had I not, you know, spent some of my own hard earned money and taken some outside training and, you know, done some of the things that I've done to kind of better myself as a law enforcement professional, I think this goes a different way and I think that's an entirely different conversation that we could have.
Speaker 2:In terms of training, right, I'm a correctional emergency response team commander, but I've got to go to outside sources and pay money out of my pocket to get the training that's necessary for me to do my job effectively. Why is that right? We don't ask our NFL superstars to go out and pay for their own football training. For me, someone that essentially has to act like a professional athlete in a profession that demands a lot of me physically, I got to pay out of my own pocket. So how do we get better from this as a profession? Because I can tell you that law enforcement as a whole misses the mark when it comes to training. Right, we can grab a bunch of grown adults and put them in a gymnasium and have them slap a bag and yell, get back for four hours, but is that going to prepare you for the fight that I went through? It's not. I promise you, it's not. It's not even remotely, doesn't even scratch the surface. So I think there's a lesson to be learned there. You know it's a lesson to be learned there. You know it's a little bit different of a topic and a little bit of a change of gears, but I do think that when we talk about training, we've got to train for that fight, because that's the reality and that's the fight that you've got to make it out of.
Speaker 2:Fortunately, I was able to make it out and not many people do. You know what I mean, I think even since this incident, I've seen three or four correctional officers be killed down in one, down in Florida, I think. I saw one recently in Fort Worth, texas. So so that's where the focus and the shift has to be is how do we properly train our people to be effective in those moments and then how do we increase the overall safety level to completely eliminate those situations as a whole? You know, and I think what's frustrating for me looking back on it, is that at the time my teammates were being tasked out elsewhere within the institution due to staff shortages. So now you've got emergency response team commanders, you know, fulfilling duties of line staff when they could be together, right, and had I had some, some teammates there, I don't know that the situation goes that way either. So you know, there's a lot to, there's a lot to unpack with it, um, you know, but I think, uh, overall, I look at it as a win. Um, I'm here, I'll be here for the birth of my daughter. I can't, I can't ask for more than that. Um, so, but it's just, uh, it's just frustrating, and it's been frustrating from that standpoint too, just because you know we're we're talking about.
Speaker 2:You know someone who wants to be a change agent for the, for the, for the profession. You know what I mean. Like I this, this is like a my incident is one of hundreds of incidents that happen around the country on a daily basis, and how many law enforcement officers are assaulted or killed in the line of duty. And I think you know kind of what we've been given is like a mandate as to how can we produce the best quality law enforcement officers that we possibly can. I started my career as a police officer and two months later the incident with George Floyd happened up in Minnesota and I won't speak too much on that. But that was also, you know, the American public's looking at us and saying, hey, we need a, a better quality of law enforcement officer out there on the street. So how do we match that as a profession with the standards in which that we train our professionals to and meet that bill? You know and provide, you know the public exactly what they're asking for.
Speaker 1:Sure, sure, and no shade to anyone out there, but you know the fact that it happened to you who had been in the military, who had been a police officer, who had taken extra training. You're not the normal correctional officer. There's a bunch of people who do. I took training outside of work also, but that's not everybody. A lot of people show up to this job thinking it's a factory job, and it is until that one day, and it is until that one day.
Speaker 1:So I mean, they don't train military for what is happening right now. They train them for what could happen. They do even police departments. I train people all over the country and police departments have no problems writing checks to put people in my classes Corrections it's like pulling teeth. They want to do it internally, which I have some I've talked about that in previous episodes. I'm not a huge fan sometimes or they want to do it with the minimal disruption. Well, we've got to get this to where we can send our people to good quality training taught by good quality people, that gives them tools they can walk inside of, because and this is me going off on a little rant but until our people feel safe inside, you're going to keep losing them.
Speaker 2:A hundred percent You're going to lose them. They're either going to walk away from the profession or they're going to fall victim to the corruption because they feel safer around the inmate population than they do the staff, and I think that it's an unfortunate reality that we kind of allow this to happen. And I do say allowed because I feel like that's kind of where we're at as a profession. You know, like as an emergency response team commander or as any line staff corrections officer, why is it that I can't be trained in like jujitsu or like a martial art or self-defense right, I don't. You can call it a palm heel strike, you can call it whatever you need to, but I need to be equipped with the tools that'll actually save my life. You know what I mean and I think that that's that's important, and I think that that the training just has to be taken a little bit more serious. You know what I mean and I think you know we can as a profession, we can invest all the money we want in you know contraband detection or you know drone detection or you know all of those those nice fancy buzzword style things that that do help the facilities. And I'm not I'm not taking away from it, saying that they don't have the facilities because they absolutely do. Um, but until you, until you start, you know, putting some investing some of this money back into your people, it's going to be tough to meet the mark and kind of, uh, increase the overall safety across the country.
Speaker 2:Um, you know, I think we're talking about an environment that'll never fully be safe. I don't think you can, I don't think you can ever say corrections will fully be safe. Right, there's the unpredictability of a, of an inmate or an incarcerated individual will always exist. It's existed since the beginning of time. It's how we adapt to that and how we get better, because they're getting better. They are. So how do we get better in response to that?
Speaker 1:And I don't think the public even knows. You know when we do rounds and stuff which will stop them, if we see them practicing martial arts, if we see them doing this stuff. But you'll walk by inmate cells and they've taken their mattress and rolled it up, taken sheets, made strips so that they can roll this up in a ball. It looks like a heavy bag. And then they're sitting there punching the heavy bag on their bunk. They're training for the day they have to fight us.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and when there's a staff shortage, right, and specifically within SCDC, there's a massive staffing shortage, and especially at the institutions that I worked at, I mean, how can you effectively supervise that? Like you might be able to stop the one inmate that's doing it, but that doesn't mean there's not another 10 across the other side of the housing unit that are doing it at the same time right, and so how do we embolden our people to effectively do this job right and effectively make a difference? You know, because it's hard. You know, we talk about staffing shortages all the time, and I think staffing shortages are something that's going on nationwide. But how do we combat staffing shortages? We empower our people, we give them the proper training and we make them feel safe at work, and I think that you hit the nail on the head with that. I think making your people feel safe at work is what's going to make them want to come back to work every morning 100%.
Speaker 1:So let me ask you, how are you doing after being assaulted? I know I've been assaulted myself and you kind of sit down and you have that moment where you go, wow, you know how about your?
Speaker 2:wife, she's, she's good, I think. You know, initially she was definitely I mean, rightfully so just shaken to the core by it and seeing me in the hospital, I consider myself pretty resilient and I think that I've actually just outright dealt with it in a much better manner than I have some of the other incidents that I've been in in the past in my career, and I always kind of, you know, carry a little bit of a chip on my shoulder, so to speak, and I try to just be as upbeat and positive as I possibly can. And that hasn't changed with this incident. And, you know, I think all I've tried to do is just take the positives out of it. You know, while I have some scars, absolutely you know, but I've got my life, so you know that's always a positive. But, you know, will I have some scars? Absolutely you know, but I've got my life.
Speaker 2:So yeah, you know that's always a positive. But uh, you know, I think it goes back to, like you know, the old saying if everyone's got a plan until they get punched in the face, well you know, you better have one. You know what I mean? That's, that's kind of uh especially in this job.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think that's that was kind of the lesson for me is, you know, and I think, going back to the mindset that we carry in this profession, I think it's very important, especially for incidents like that. And you know, I think, had I not had the mindset that I carried into my job every day, you know, I don't know that I would have been as well prepared, I guess, so to speak, for something like that. But you know, especially as a CERT, cert commander, and I think any correctional officer should carry the same mindset. But you know, when you walk into a housing unit, you can't just be walking into a housing unit. You're looking for your entry and exit points, you're looking at the population, you're seeing what the population is doing, you're being observant.
Speaker 2:That's what this job demands of you, because they're they're doing the same to you, they're observing your every move, they're watching you, they're watching your patterns. You know what I mean, um, and so, being unpredictable, but also being on alert at all times and carrying a combat mindset with you because you have to have a combat mindset, um, it'll help. You gotta have like a sixth sense about you, gotta have your sweaty sense of stinging when you're walking around in azine. You can't. You know, you're just walking around like you're taking a walk at the park. You really got to be attentive and you know on point every time that you, you know, do this job.
Speaker 1:Amazing story, amazing story. So thank you so much for coming on to the Prison Officer Podcast. Thank you very much. I look forward to seeing where you go in the the future and how many months are you going to have a little one? Uh five, five, wow, yeah, well, enjoy that. It makes everything worth it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's going by a lot, a lot faster than I think.
Speaker 2:Um, I would like to to quick say something and uh, I just wanted to thank my dad for everything and for me being at this point that I'm at now and kind of helping guide me through this career path. It means the world to me and I think that he is not only the best correctional professional that I know, but he's one of the best professionals and human beings that I know and I think that now more than ever, I have a certain level of appreciation for the job that he's now done for 33 years. I haven't even done it for a fraction of the time, but you know, knowing that, you know he's gone in and done this for three decades now is, you know, impressive nonetheless to say for me. But you know, I just I love him and you know, I know that he's a he's a little bit broken up over what happened, but if not for him, I don't think that I'd be half the man that I am or still be here in this position that I am today.
Speaker 1:Yeah, great words. Your father's a leader that I follow on LinkedIn. I love his posts and you guys should, if you haven't, go back and listen to episode 56. He is quite the leader and that's where I'm sure you've got a lot of this from. So, a hundred percent, yeah, great words, great words. You have a great day. Good talking to you. Thanks to you as well.
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