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The Prison Officer Podcast
The Prison Officer Podcast is a place where prison officers and correctional staff share their experiences, discuss leadership, cope with stress, and learn survival strategies for one of the toughest careers out there. Hosted by Michael Cantrell, this podcast delves into the lives, dreams, and challenges faced by those who work inside the walls of our nation’s prisons. It features interviews, insights, and discussions related to the unique and demanding world of corrections. Whether it’s overcoming difficult leaders, understanding rehabilitation, or addressing misconceptions about incarcerated populations, the Prison Officer Podcast provides valuable perspectives from professionals in the field.
The Prison Officer Podcast
101: Transforming Prisons: Innovation and Rehabilitation in Belize - Interview w/Dr. Jarrod Sadulski
Discover the transformative world of Central American prisons with Dr. Jarrod Sadulski, whose journey from the Coast Guard to criminology and federal law enforcement has led him to the heart of prison reform in Belize. As we navigate through his insights, you'll uncover the stark realities and surprising successes within the Belize Central Prison, a place where innovation in rehabilitation starkly contrasts with the turmoil often seen in neighboring countries' facilities. This episode promises an eye-opening look at how effective management and minimal resources are reshaping the lives of inmates through coexistence and self-sustainability.
Travel inside the Belize Central Prison, where harsh conditions meet groundbreaking rehabilitation efforts. From the Ashcroft Rehabilitation Program to the management strategies that emphasize peaceful coexistence among gang members, we explore the unique approaches that have led to impressively low recidivism rates. Despite the limited budget of just $9 per day per inmate, the focus on life skills and trade training is remarkable. Listen as Dr. Sadulski shares his firsthand experience of witnessing inmates working freely with machetes, challenging perceptions of prison life and offering a new perspective on the potential for redemption and reintegration.
Contact Dr. Jared Sadulski jarrod@sadulski.com
LinkedIn - Dr. Jarrod Sadulski
Belize prison articles by Dr. Sadulski:
- https://amuedge.com/belize-prisons-rehabilitation-programs-raise-morale-lower-recidivism/
- https://amuedge.com/belize-central-a-model-for-central-american-prisons/
Netflix documentary:
- Inside the World's Toughest Prison: Season 2, Episode 4 Belize: The Prison That Found God
- Inside the World's Toughest Prison Season 1, Episode 1: Danli Prison, Honduras
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Take care of each other and Be Safe behind those walls and fences!
In more than 28 years of corrections, I have used or supervised Pepperball hundreds of times. Now, as a master instructor for Pepperball, I teach others about the versatility and effectiveness of this Pepperball system. From cell extractions to disturbances on the rec yard, pepperball is the first option in my correctional toolbox. One of the most dangerous times for officers is during cell extractions. One of the most dangerous times for officers is during cell extractions. Pepperball allows officers to respond with the lowest level of force and still be effective and ready if the situation escalates. The responding officer controls where the projectiles are aimed, how many projectiles are launched and how rapidly they're deployed. This allows the response to be tailored to the moment. To learn more about Pepperball, go to wwwpepperballcom or click the link below in the show's information guide. Pepperball is the safer option first. Well, hello and welcome back to the Prison Officer Podcast.
Speaker 1:My name is Mike Cantrell. Today I've got Dr Jared Sadulski. He's a criminologist that focuses on the most pressing issues in criminal justice. Jared has over two decades of federal law enforcement experience and for the past five years he's been leading teams to a prison in Central America. These teams provide the only training that the prison officers receive down there. In addition to that, he's been providing training on prison operations, involved in the various rehabilitation programs and he's been working directly with the inmates to provide trade skills training, life skills training. His experiences have led him to even testify before Congress this year, so really excited to have him on the program.
Speaker 1:As most of you know, I've mentioned it before. Have him on the program as most of you know, I've mentioned it before One of the things I didn't know or I knew, but I just didn't realize how global Corrections is until I started this podcast. We have listeners from 61 different countries, so when I had the opportunity to talk to Jared here and hear about what he's seen down there in Central America, I just jumped on it. So welcome to the Prison Officer Podcast, jared. Thank you for the opportunity to be here. Yeah, I'm really excited about this. I'd like to back up before we start and get into the prison stuff. Tell me a little bit about yourself, where you grew up, how you got into law enforcement, that type of stuff.
Speaker 2:Sure. So I grew up in Southwest Florida, sarasota County, florida. I joined the Coast Guard at 18. That gave me some exposure to law enforcement. So ultimately I made that transition after my enlistment and I did federal law enforcement as well as local law enforcement and getting to the end of that career I decided to continue in criminal justice. I went and pursued my PhD, became a criminologist and the area that I studied the most is human trafficking.
Speaker 1:So that's ultimately what led me to Central America to find the prison Right right and human trafficking and corrections often in many parts of the world go together. They're intertwined. The criminal, the crime excuse me about that, the crime, you know, uh, the a lot of the inmates, drug trafficking and stuff like that those are interconnected. So that's interesting that you got involved in that. So did that just come out of the blue? How did you end up getting the chance to go to Central America?
Speaker 2:Great question. So I was invited to come to the uh, come to Belize, in Central America, which is an English-speaking nation, the only English-speaking nation in Central America, and I was invited to go speak to their government on counter-human trafficking and counter-drug trafficking. So the event was kind of turning into a big deal for me. It was right after I finished the PhD and it was one of my first main speaking events, and the host, which is a university, invited all of these different people to come hear me speak the Belize Coast Guard, customs, immigration. And just before the trip I watched this Netflix documentary titled World's Toughest Prisons the Belize edition. And it was about two days before the trip and what I saw was just so unbelievable in that documentary that when I saw the prison director was on the list of people to hear me speak, I reached out and asked if I could get a tour of his prison and not a request he gets very often but he said sure, and what I saw shocked me, wow.
Speaker 1:So my next question is tell me what you saw. Well, so my next question is tell me what you saw. Yeah, I mean, I've seen stuff from Central America where there's prisons down there that they don't feed and stuff like we do. If your family doesn't bring food to the gate, you don't get anything. Is it at that level? Tell me what you saw.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 2:So, to put in perspective, so the prison. So I started doing some research after the documentary. The prison to Belize is south, so there's only one prison in the nation of Belize. So the prison to the South is Danly, honduras. Now that prison is completely cartel run, so the staff and the prison officers maintain a perimeter around the prison, but it's actually the cartels that are controlling operations within the prison. In the prison to the north, until December of 2018, until the Mexican military had to come in the prison to the north, which is Chetumal, mexico was in the same situation, where the cartels were controlling the daily operations in the prison. Then you have bullies.
Speaker 2:So when I watched this documentary, it was so unbelievable. So I saw what existed in the documentary. I saw firsthand. The first thing I saw when I pulled up to the prison gates were 25 inmates with machetes cutting down grass outside of the prison across the street, with one guard that looked half asleep. And I'm watching this. And so then I go in and this is a poor prison in a poor country. They receive $9 per day per inmate in operating costs and yet they have one of the lowest free offending rates in the world.
Speaker 2:Right, the prison was in deplorable conditions. There was not running water in all of the facilities. They were housing adults with juveniles. Oh man, they were constantly having escapes, guards were bringing in drugs, sometimes firearms, and so it was so bad that a businessman was building the street in front of the prison and he said, regardless of what they've done, nobody should live in that condition.
Speaker 2:He reached out to the prime minister about the deplorable conditions and the prime minister said well, if you're concerned, why don't you take over management of the prison? So his name was John Woods and what he did was he was a Rotarian in Belize. He went to the other Rotarians. They formed this Colby Foundation, which is after what's a Rotarian? I didn't yep, so a rotarian. So it's basically the rotary you know is is a? Uh, we have them in the united states and they're uh global rotary club rotary, right, okay, okay, sorry, no, no problem.
Speaker 2:So he went to his local rotary and they formed this colby foundation, which was named after a catholic priest that uh sacrificed his life for somebody else in World War II in Germany. So they developed this program and they came in and they said that if they're going to take over management of the prison, that it has to be done their way, which the government agreed to. First thing they did was they let go of all the staff and they brought new people in, and then they started building out the prison to where the conditions improved. They separated the adults from the juveniles and ultimately the prison is on 220 acres of land, and so they're able to be self-sustaining in that they're able to farm, they have poultry, they have agriculture, so 60% of the food that's served at the prison is actually from the prison grounds.
Speaker 1:That's not unusual. I mean many states, including Missouri, Tennessee, Mississippi that's the way they used to take care of the prisons. The inmates made their own food, so that's not unusual. It's a good program, so it shows this.
Speaker 2:Right, that's not unusual. It's a good program, so it shows this Right. So for me, I go in there and I'm standing on the second floor and I was with the director and I was looking out over the yard and there were a group playing soccer together and he told me the director told me. He said that's Bloods Crips and MS-13 on the streets. They kill each other here in the prison they play soccer together. So I just was so amazed by what I had saw.
Speaker 2:And so we go, and now we're walking the grounds and I've got inmates everywhere. They're walking around me and I'd never been in a prison in my life. I knew nothing about prisons five years ago and I was completely shocked at what I was seeing. And he explained that they have a variance between 9% and 14% recidivism rate, which is one of the lowest that I'm aware of in the world. And yet they do that on receiving $9 per day per inmate for management of the prison. Compared to last I checked, which is about five years ago, I think we're looking at like $100 per day per inmate, according to a study that I've read in the United States. So here they are doing this with only 10% of what prisons are receiving in the United States and people aren't coming back.
Speaker 2:And so the first question I asked was how? Why? So we go into a section of the prison that's a rehabilitation ward area and I walk in there. There's 30 inmates in there, there's no prison officers. There's the director that's with me, there's a counselor that's in there, and I walk into this room and you got a picture of Belize Central Prison. It doesn't have the modern luxuries of a regular prison in a first world country. So I'm looking around, the walls haven't been painted in years, it's concrete, the flooring is all just concrete and there's no air conditioning. I mean, it has electricity in some parts. In some parts of the prison it does, others it doesn't. And so I'm in there and I walk into this room and I'm looking and I'm surrounded by inmates. They kind of put me in the middle for some reason. And the counselor said to the inmates he said you know, we're going to have this counseling session. Does anybody, any of the inmates, want to start this counseling session off in prayer? And I'm thinking to myself okay, I'm in a third world prison in a third world country, what am I doing? And so this one inmate raises his hand and third world country. What am I doing? And so this one inmate raises his hand and so I don't know if I'm supposed to close my eyes. I don't know what to do. So I'm just kind of shocked. Standing there and I listened to the prison inmate which was in there, convicted for murder, and during his prayer he said I want to ask for God's blessing on the visitor. And then it hit me he's asking for God's blessing on me. Here I am in this prison and this inmate is asking for God's blessing on me and the rest of the tour. I just kept going back to that.
Speaker 2:And I came back to the United States and I knew there was something I needed to do, and so I reached out to the director and I said what do you need? And he said well, we need basic toiletries, we need basic, basic supplies. And he explained to me the budget and the challenges they were having. So I rallied the troops and we went and we filled up two shipping containers and had it sent to Belize, or sent items to shipping containers to meet very basic needs Cloth so that the inmates can sew to make their own uniforms. So we're not sending uniforms, we're sending cloth, because that's the level that they're at.
Speaker 2:I still was unsettled, and so I reached back out to the director and I said well, is there anything else? And he said, well, we don't receive any training. So when somebody is hired, they're put out in the yard. The only training they're receiving is from the person, the prison officer, standing next to them. There was absolutely no formal training or even a training manual or training program within the prison at the time, and so I thought, well, let me see if I can find somebody that's an expert in corrections, has some corrections experience, that will go down and provide training. As hard as I looked, I couldn't find anybody. I mean, people would go, but they want five or 10 grand. I don't blame them, but I'm asking them to go and even pay their own expenses. And so I couldn't find anybody.
Speaker 2:I was still unsettled, so I decided that I can't let this go. So what I did was I started going into corrections facilities here in my home state of Florida and I explained to the prison wardens and everybody that would listen to me hey, I just need to learn and then I'll go down and deliver this training. So the first training that they had asked for was riots, escapes and hostage-taking situations, which are realities in any prison right. So that was what I focused on. I went to three different corrections facilities, prisons here in Florida. I got manuals, I talked to their tactical teams, I talked to you know, basically some of the facilities would really open up and give me everything that I needed and basically let me sit in on their training so that I could go and replicate that training. So I went down there in January of 2020, at this point, when I provided the first training on riots, escapes and hostage-staking situations, covid hit.
Speaker 2:There were some problems in the prison right. No longer allowed to see their family members, they were on lockdown for months and that resulted of the guards in the cells having them call out whenever the radio calls would come to report that everything was normal. They waited for nightfall and they escaped. Now, as terrible as all that is and I'm not crediting the training, but I will say not one prison officer died and that was the focus of the training survival, and so the last escape was that particular one. So they have not had an escape now in four years, which, for having no budget and the fence was blown down after a hurricane in 2023, and yet they've had no escapes. So that was a very isolated incident and you know, but it really motivated me.
Speaker 2:So, through COVID, all the way to today in fact, I'll be there next week I have been taking teams. Now, now that you know, this has kind of gained some attention, I've been able to find people that are willing to go and we've been providing training now for several years. Corrections One Academy. I reached out to those folks and explained to them what I'm doing and I said you know, they've never had anything close to an online training academy. You know, is this something that you would partner with me on? And they did. You know, they gave me a deal and we ended up graduating. You know, the vast majority of their staff Wow, and that's the first time they've received formalized training.
Speaker 1:That Wow, and that's the first time they've received formalized training. That's great, that's amazing. So for those of us that haven't been there, let's back up a little bit. Describe the prison to me, because I've got a bunch of correctional officers I know, like myself, that are sitting there trying to imagine what this looks like. So are we talking, are there bars and cells? Are they double bunked, triple bunked? Are you talking tiers, multiple tiers? Do they have pods? Is it bays, that type of stuff? Describe that prison to me, okay.
Speaker 2:So when you walk in, there's the control center and you know they're basically all the inmates you know come through there, and so from there they hit the first checkpoint where they're searched. And then as you walk into the prison, setting to the left is a large auditorium and there's probably about nine different cell buildings. And so when you walk into the main door, which is, I think they call it a rickets Does that sound right? That's what they call it down there. So basically, you know, like the bars of the doors, you know like what I would typically expect to see in a prison. So they have that it's rusted, it's unpainted, and you walk in concrete floors, concrete walls, and you walk in and there's probably 30, there's two wings and there's probably maybe the prison house houses. The current population is 1100, but I think it's built for like 2000 or something. So it's one of the few prisons I've heard of that is not overcrowded. So a lot of these wings are not actually even occupied, I should say a lot. Some of them are not. So looking into the cell, you know what you would see is all concrete. You know the walls, the flooring there they do. It is double bunked and in and in places that it's not, in places that it's not, which would be the what they call it. They call it their administrative segregation.
Speaker 2:So the people that break the prison rules, right, they are sent to total deprivation is what I would call it. And there's no electricity, there's no beds. You know, if you don't want to lay on the ground, you could tie a sheet to the metal bar of the door, to the window, because the window's metal bars. And you know, and that's what it is, and as harsh as that sounds, that's a much better condition than being in the prisons. And the neighboring countries. You know, go to a prison in Guatemala. A prison in El Salvador would be the exception, but you know, if you look at Honduras, for example, you know these are luxuries. Adseg in Belize is a luxury compared to these other prisons, to where at least they're safe. Right, we don't have at the Belize Central Prison you're not having violence among inmates. You know, even though the conditions are rough because it's a poor country, the people are fed All of these standards and they go by, I think, the UN standards they're all met. They are recognized as a prison that is operating without any meaningful budget, in a powerful way and doing amazing things, and so what we've been doing the last couple of years is trying to, you know, help improve the conditions the best that we can at the prison, right, so if I can take people down there that you know have construction skills, that have different skills, that we can help, you know, strengthen the conditions in the prison, you know we're all for it.
Speaker 2:Now, you know I will say that, you know, in the programs. So if we go back to that rehabilitation program so it's called Ashcroft Rehabilitation Program and basically it's a, I think it's a, I want to say a 90-day program, and you know they're receiving counseling every day and they're staying together. So the same room that they are doing the training and during the day is the same room they're sleeping in, so and it's just basically a big, a big bay, okay, and in that you know they have, they have single beds and you know it's, you know it. You know on the outside it looks, it looks, you know it looks like a prison in the third world country. But you know, these guys they're happy to be in these programs because they're receiving life skills training. These guys they're happy to be in these programs because they're receiving life skills training. They're receiving training on trade skills and what to do when they get out.
Speaker 2:And I could give you story after story of people that I've come across in that community that as soon as I tell them that I'm down there because I'm providing training at the prison, oh, I was in the prison X amount of years ago. And I always say well, what do you think of the prison? And every single person that I've spoken to that was sentenced in that prison speaks highly of it. They say that it changed my life, it straightened me out, it got me off drugs, and I mean everybody from the taxi driver to the tour guide it seems like everybody has been to that prison. I mean, it's not true, not everybody hasn't been there, but it's amazing to me how many people I've come across that have that haven't gone back.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so talk to me about the prison officers. I know when I've seen, you know, prisons in some other countries, sometimes there's a really high female ratio to the male inmates. You know, even with when I was down on the border, I saw a prison that was a male institution. It was almost entirely female officers. So is it that way? What's the officer carrying? Do they have cuffs? Do they have a baton? Do they have OC? Tell me about what the officer's day is like. Great question.
Speaker 2:So I spend a lot of time with them and I've gotten to know them and it really I can't think of a better word than inspires me. So this prison, they have a lot of things in place to maintain these standards, right? So drug testing, they're always drug testing, both the staff and the inmates. Recently they did a sweep where they had the police come in with dogs. They pulled every inmate out of the cells, put them in the main auditorium, had the dogs go through every cell. There was no, I'm sorry I'm not answering your question, but I'll get to it. No, you're fine. So they put, basically, they did a surprise search and they brought in the dogs, went all through the prison. It was like midnight, two in the morning, so nobody would have seen this coming and they did not find any drugs in that prison.
Speaker 2:I'm not saying the drugs don't exist in that prison, because they do, and there's a couple incidents a year because I read the annual reports of where they are finding people, where they are popping positive on a drug test, but for those dogs to go through those cells and not to have found drugs or weapons.
Speaker 2:They also searched, obviously, for weapons and that, and with 1,000 inmates and basically being able to go through there and not finding any major prison violations really speaks volumes to how this prison is operated.
Speaker 2:And to answer your question, so if these guys are hungry for training, if there's a period of time where I don't go, because I try to go once a quarter, and if there's time that I'm getting six, seven months there, I'm hearing from them, they're contacting me on the phone. They're asking for training. Seven months there, I'm hearing from them, they're contacting by the phone, they're asking for training. And it is inspiring to me that a prison officer that is being paid last I checked, which is probably about a year ago, $2.50 an hour, starting off yet maintains his integrity, maintains basically follows the procedures that are in place. And this prison operates in such a good manner that I as an American, walk freely through every aspect of that prison by myself, and had I tried that before 2002, I would be taken as a bargaining chip against the government here. When I'm there next week I will walk through the different sections of the prison and not think twice about it, and in Central America that's unheard of.
Speaker 1:I wouldn't recommend you do it in a penitentiary in America. Wow, People have to go through training before they're even thought about and most of them are going to be escorted through our prisons with an officer. So, yeah, that says something about just the. I don't know, Is it the the integrity, the the willingness to help, because they're all kind of in the same low income?
Speaker 2:system, right. So part of it is the size of the country, right, so the size of the country is a population of around 400,000 people, which is a small country. The entire country, so the landmass of New Jersey, population of 400,000 people. So you know, it's everybody, kind of knows everybody and you know, I think that that's part of it. I think that there's, you know, it's a very much a Catholic nation and so you know, I think that's a big part of it.
Speaker 2:But these prison officers, I watch them. I watch them seeing if they're thoroughly searching the inmates, the supervisors run around, but if I'm standing there I would think that whatever they normally do in their daily practice, they'll do with me around. And I'm seeing them go through the steps. I'm seeing them go through the steps. I'm seeing them hungry for training. But to answer your question in terms of equipment, so the average prison officer would only have a uniform, the QRT, quick response team. They're going to have pepper spray and handcuffs. Now the inmates obviously are handcuffed if they're taken back and forth to court. There's a special group that would have handcuffs for that.
Speaker 2:And you had mentioned OC, oc, qrt. They're the only people with OC, but what I learned was. They didn't do any training with it. So for the last couple of years, every time I'm down, any new officer that didn't previously go through my OC training goes through it. Every one of them gets sprayed and then I make them fight through it.
Speaker 2:Every one of them gets sprayed and then I make them, you know, fight, you know through it for a couple minutes and and then you know we'll, we'll light up a whole cell, you know with with pepper spray and we'll have, you know, somebody, cause if you saw what a lack of equipment was there, you know, like in the United States, you know we might use, you know, 150 pound dummy that you know that was given to her that we paid for there.
Speaker 2:That's not going to happen there. It's going to be one of the other prison officers that's role-playing and is laying there. These guys got to go in there, you know, through the thick pepper spray and evacuate them out, and so that's part of the training that we do. You know it. You know it's to see these guys get so excited over this training, especially when we were doing the corrections online training. But it just, you know, it shows, you know that, the pride they take in their job Now because it is low paying, we do lose a lot. So when we do the training, a lot of them go to the military or the police because they now have a training certificate.
Speaker 1:And so you mentioned law enforcement. You mentioned them earlier. Are they better funded down there, and why is corrections? No, they're kind of in the same boat, they're making maybe a dollar or two more an hour.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they're not doing, not making much. And then you know the other thing is transportation, right. So even the prison officers, you know they'll be on a shift for it's a pretty long time I think it's like a week. You know they're sort's barracks, but then when it's time to go home you're considered rich. If you have a vehicle in Belize, so I can think of maybe six and they're all part of management that have vehicles. So the other staff of 250 people because there's 250 staff members are basically going on the bus, the bus system to get home, which their home could be four hours from the prison because it could be completely on the bus. You know the bus system to get home, which their home could be four hours from the prison because you know it could be completely on the opposite side of the country, which is all jungle roads. So you know it, you know it.
Speaker 2:Just it's amazing to me, and not to say that there's not problems or our problems, there's problems in every prison, but the level of problems and the type of problems they're having are not to the level that I've read about in other prisons, not just in Central America but around the world and it's very much. And one thing I like about it is you know there's no political correctness in this prison. There's no. You know things just work down there differently, right? So punishment is strict, you know there's I mean it's. They call it tough love. I wouldn't want tough love from that prison. So I've seen what those ad-sec cells look like. But you know what it acts as a deterrent and the steps are in place to maintain that integrity and there's zero tolerance for lack of integrity or policy violations. And for these officers they want this job because it's very difficult to get work in the leagues.
Speaker 1:So is part of the reason this works. The supervision Do you get to talk to supervisors? Do you get to train them in any type of leadership? Is that even a factor?
Speaker 2:Right, great question. So the leadership is really the backbone of that prison. So you know, I speak with them almost at least the prison director almost on a daily basis. I spoke with him yesterday and spoke with him today. But I advocate for the prison. I speak on their local or their national news to advocate for the prison, about how people need to hire these convicted inmates when they get out. People need to hire these convicted inmates when they get out. If they don't have and we all know this but if there's no opportunity for them, they're going to go back into dealing drugs, doing whatever it takes to feed their family.
Speaker 2:The level of poverty is not well understood in that area. I don't think I know. I didn't understand it. So I went.
Speaker 2:So about two years ago I said okay, well, I went to the inmates and I talked to probably maybe a couple hundred over a week and I said to them I said okay, well, if the prison, because I've been doing this a while, the inmates all know me and I've been told because in Belize most of the inmates are gang members, right, so before I started going into the street, I went to some of these higher-level gang guys and I talked to them.
Speaker 2:I said I'm willing to go into your community because your family, your children, your mother, your dad, they're living in I don't even know how to describe it, I mean shacks that don't have roofs. And I said I'm willing to go and basically, especially the children, try to implement some mentorship programs, implement some different things to keep your children from following your steps. Tell me what that looks like. And so I've kind of opened up that dialogue. And then what I did was I went and met with the prime minister and I met with the minister of home affairs and others and I basically outlined what the prison officers I'm sorry, the prison inmates are saying that led them to prison in their country. And you know, we're still in the process of implementing different change, but I can tell you that I was told that the gang members on the street will take a bullet for me before they let anything happen to me, because they know the work that I'm doing and that's because the orders are coming from the gang members that are incarcerated.
Speaker 1:Sure, I was really interested in the fact that you mentioned there were Crips down there and MS-13. Of course, ms-13 is for us up here. That's more of a Mexican gang. I don't know if it's all South America or not, but some of those are considered American gangs.
Speaker 2:Well, here's how that happened. So in the 80s and 90s, when people from Belize were locked up in Los Angeles and locked up in American prisons, they learned gang life from our prison gangs. Then they took that with them back to Belize and, fortunately, the streets of Belize, the safest place in Belize, I always tell people, the safest place in Belize, other than the tourist areas, is the prison. It truly is. It truly is and it's because of how well that prison's run.
Speaker 2:So, as far as the management, the prison director, he's been at the prison since 2002, since the takeover of 2002, right, he started, I think he was an accountant, worked his way up. Now he's the director Technically they called it the CEO of the prison there and so he's been with that program. That Colby program that is based on reintegration into society, is faith-based, and so he's been a part of it from the very beginning and he, along with his management staff, really are the backbone and because they are so strict, as I work, they maintain such standards that their policy violations, whether the staff or inmates, are going to be dealt with very, very seriously. It's to the point that people you know they just don't mess around with it.
Speaker 1:Well, and I mean I can absolutely get behind thoughts like that what we deal with in prison there's not black and white, I mean there's not gray, it's black and white. People get hurt if we don't do our jobs. Inmates get hurt if they aren't doing what they're supposed to. So I can understand that. So what kind of support, or if any, are you getting? I know you've brought stuff from America there. You say it's a large Catholic country. Does the Catholic Church get involved in bringing anything in to help these guys, to mentor or ministry to them?
Speaker 2:There has been a lot of people that have come from both the church and that have come from the community, that will come in and provide these life skills training or, I'm sorry, life skills training too, but also job skills training.
Speaker 2:So a lot of people have done that, and you know I don't know how many from the United States, but you know, locally I see a lot of people in there providing training and I articulate when I go and I speak for the news about the prison, I explain to them that to keep these people from going through your bedroom window, breaking into your house, stealing so that they can eat, we can provide a certificate that says, hey, they've been trained, they've received certificates for accomplishments with anger management, whatever the issues are that brought them to prison. We're able to provide certificates that articulate. Maybe it's plumbing, electrical, whatever job they were able to do in the prison or learn. We're advocating for them, for the community to hire them, and some are. We also really push the inmates to get into self-employment. Now, self-employment there looks like farming, it looks like woodworking and selling your wood products to souvenir stores. That's what self-employment means down there. But it works, it works.
Speaker 1:So I noticed that we spoke just a tiny bit about this, that you got to testify in front of Congress. So what were you testifying about there? Was that the human trafficking or was it the prison?
Speaker 2:Great question. So now you know at this stage this was probably 2023. So now it's going there at least quarterly, typically monthly. This is when we were doing the Corrections 1 Academy training. So I kept going down there to attend their graduations and hand out the diplomas and somebody had reached out and asked. He said that he was a former gang member in Los Angeles and he went to prison for murder. He was a pretty prominent gang member, went to prison in California for murder, then was deported back to his home country in Belize, and he asked if he could come in and speak to the current gang members. Not wild about the idea, but I figured we'll give him a shot. So I brought him in and he spoke to about 500 gang members about his life and articulating how you know, basically advocating for getting out of gang life, was his message. And so, but afterwards I talked to him and I said you know what can you tell me? You know cause the guy's been rehabilitated. You know the guy is, you know he did his time to 27 years in prison and before getting paroled. And so I said what can you tell me that I don't know about gangs, about all of it? And so he opened up in a way that no one else ever has to me, and in particular, he talked about human trafficking, and so that was already an area that I've really been working hard on.
Speaker 2:So I wrote an article based the article's titled I'd have to pull up the exact time but something to the effect of human trafficking from a gang member's perspective, and so I published this article. Well, I get an email from the US Congressional Committee on Homeland Security and they said they needed to speak with me, and I thought I was in trouble, and I've had bad run-ins with the embassy and the US embassy in Belize before, so I figured there was some other other issue I got to deal with. And so I really did think I was in trouble. And so they said that the director, the staff director, wanted to meet with me, and so we did a Zoom call and she was reading my article out and she's like we haven't heard any of this. Where are you getting this from? And I explained well, he's not at the prison, but I met him because he came into the prison to speak and she said would you be willing to testify before Congress about what you've learned? And I said absolutely, because he was a sex trafficker. He was an enforcer in a sex trafficking house involving people that are coming through the border, and so his information was so detailed. He was just describing to me what the sex trafficking houses look like, what organ harvesting looks like. I mean, he has seen it, he's seen it all firsthand and so, ironically, him and I we also stay in close communication and he's not affiliated with the prison, he's just a citizen down there, but he really still is a wealth of knowledge and so when I have teams that go down there like I had a retired FBI agent that came to provide training at the prison, he was dying to talk to them and sit down and just talk to them about all these different crazy things.
Speaker 2:So it's kind of an interesting world that only I think prison officers would understand in terms of these people are still like the public doesn't understand. In terms of you know, these people are still like the public doesn't understand. They don't understand that you know if somebody goes to prison for murder, you know that they're a soulless, you know lifeless body that's. You know that's just in the cell. But you know these people, you know, I've seen it. You know they can be rehabilitated they can, and you know my faith is very important to me so I look at it from a Christian perspective. But you know I've seen a redemption in people that you know were at the time the worst of the worst, which he was probably one of the worst people you know that I've ever talked to at the time, right, I mean he murdered the guy he was buying drugs from because he didn't want to pay him.
Speaker 1:That's how he ended up in prison and I try with this podcast to explain a little bit to the public. But until you actually see there's an entire world in there that has different morals, that has different ways of looking at things and it's shocking. And especially I mean I started I came from a little country town when I got hired into corrections and even in America it was a huge culture shock. So I can't imagine seeing some of that. They don't have. They just don't have choices because of the, the, how poor they are down there, right.
Speaker 2:To explain how bad it is growing up. So the so the gangs on the streets, especially in Belize, southside Belize City. So if you were a child not affiliated with gangs, but you're a 12-year-old child and you live on a particular block, you are not permitted to go on to the next block over if it is controlled by a rival gang. If you do, it's murder. There's no second chance. And then now all of a sudden, we start having the clashes and so now the gangs are all shooting up each other's houses. What's interesting down there which I wish at times, I wish we could do this is the gang violence will rise. So they'll have a state of emergency. Anyone that's registered ever been registered as a gang member automatic. They get picked up, they're put into prison, they start off. I think it's 60 days and then, if there's continued to be gang violence, they'll attack on another 60 days and then, if there's continued to be gang violence, they'll tackle it in another 60 days.
Speaker 2:You know, I know there's some defense attorneys in my area who do process with that thing. But I've seen it and what's amazing to me is, you know there'll be times that it's too dangerous for me to go into the poorest parts of the city and do the food drives that I do, and it's you know. Then I know a state emergency is coming and I'll actually wait for it to happen. They'll scoop up all the gang members, put it in the prison. I'll go down to the food drive, then I'll go provide training at the prison and I'm looking around and it's just as peaceful here as it as it always is, because at the prison.
Speaker 2:You know they're going to obey the rules or pay the consequence.
Speaker 1:The government's almost taking the gangs hostage, aren't they?
Speaker 2:Yep, and so it's, yeah, it's I mean yeah, I'm okay with it.
Speaker 1:You keep messing up, we'll keep tacking time on. You'll never get them back.
Speaker 2:Right, Wow, Well, in El Salvador they do that. So El Salvador, President Bukele. He came in, built these mega prisons and went, and if somebody was MS-13, they're in there. Whether they committed a crime at the time or not, they're in prison. And he's getting a lot of heat for that now because they've been in there a while. But it works in Central America. That's what you do.
Speaker 1:Unfortunately so, and this is going to back up to something you said early in the podcast. But I've always heard the term cartel ran prison. Talk to me about what that means, because for me, I mean, I just have no concept of this prison that's being ran by, I guess, the gangs Right.
Speaker 2:And the officers are all outside Right. So fortunately in Belize we don't have cartels. We have gangs, but any cartel activity is not. It's nothing compared to the scope of other countries. I do a lot of work with the human trafficking stuff involving cartels, so I spend a lot of time on the border, a lot of time in Mexico, and so I am pretty well-versed with the cartel world. I am pretty well versed with the cartel world and in terms of when they're half the prison, you know, they it. You know there's actually a Netflix documentary. It's that same documentary world's toughest prisons.
Speaker 2:If you watch the Danley Honduras video, you know it'll, it'll show you what that, what that looks like. Okay, so, yeah, so it, you know it. Basically, it's the prison officers. You know they maintain the perimeter, you know, but it's it's truly the cartel leaders that are maintaining order within the prison, and that exists in different countries throughout.
Speaker 2:You know Central America, you know it's, it's insane.
Speaker 2:But you know, if you think about how much power the cartels have.
Speaker 2:And you know, I see it all the time in Mexico, where I'll see the cartels moving drugs or moving people, and the Mexican military, which is a bunch of kids 18 to 22 year old kids are just standing there. I mean, I have drone footage of the Mexican military. Well, mexican military law enforcement, along with the cartels you know, working together and we had drones at the job, and so you know these guys in a country that's controlled by cartels fortunately, like I said, belize doesn't have a cartel problem but you know, in countries that they're really controlled by these, these gangs or cartels northern triangle, which is el salvador, guatemala and honduras el salvador is the current exception, but, uh, guatemala and honduras, you know it, 95 of crime goes unpunished. So you know the people that are in there are the worst of the worst and you know they have much more control than certainly the prison officers. But really, in some cases, in some areas, the government, you know, to stay alive, politicians, are accepting the bribes of these cartel guys.
Speaker 1:So in Belize, how's the sentencing, you know, is there? Is there death penalty? Is life mean you're never coming out and hope's gone? Are they handing out 40, 50, 60 year sentences, or is there hope?
Speaker 2:Yep, so fair question. So what's different down there about here is that you can easily be in prison for three, four, five years, maybe more, before your case ever goes to court. So they're on remand and that happens all the time. I would say somewhere around 40% of the inmates are there on remand, and so the court system was based on the old English system because they were British. British Honduras is what the old name of Belize used to be. So their court system still follows this English process and it's very antiquated.
Speaker 2:If you get bail, most people in Belize aren't going to be able to pay it. So when COVID was a thing, if people weren't wearing a mask and they were given a $100 fine and they couldn't pay it, they, when COVID was a thing, if people weren't wearing a mask and they were given a $100 fine and they couldn't pay it, they were sitting in the prison for months and then sometimes the prison director would advocate for them to be released. And so the court system is not I speak highly of the prison, but the court system. It's really a mess. It's a mess, but the court system, it's really a mess. It's a mess For these guys that I've talked to that have been there for years. I definitely encourage you to watch the prison, the Belize edition of the World's Toughest Prisons. I'll look that up and we'll put it in the show notes.
Speaker 2:Okay, perfect, exactly what I saw is in that documentary. What's interesting is the documentary was done by Raphael Rowe, which is an atheist, but he says right at the end Ashcroft Rehabilitation Program. Then they're given basically they're trustees Now they're given a job. So they know that any violation is going to basically cause them to lose that job. Then they're going back into total isolation. So they're very careful and I think that's part of why I'm able to walk freely around the prison is the stakes are so high for them to lose their freedom. So you know, when I walk around the prison, you know there's 50, 100 trustees doing everything, mowing grass to, to do all the prison stuff. And you know I walk up to him and there's never, never even been close to an issue. And in fact, fact, my partner, my business partner, she's a Hispanic female, little like 5'5", 5'2", and she will walk shoulder to shoulder with me throughout this prison, just her and I, yeah, wow.
Speaker 1:Is it? Yeah, and be safe, right, right. So one of the big things with rehabilitation, of course, that I've seen American system is family contact. So I'm guessing they don't have phones inside the prison to call family and family may not have phones. Do they get visiting? They do, do they just do it through letters?
Speaker 2:generous visiting policy, so they have visitors nonstop and it's interesting because the visitors have to go through the same search procedures as the inmates and then they're put into a chain link room and they have. So basically there's a plexiglass and they're able to communicate through a hole in the plexiglass, but they're basically in a concrete on the floor like a concrete bench and then able to communicate with their loved ones there. But yeah, that's very common. You had asked about the death penalty. So Belize part of the deal. Whenever Colby Foundation took over in 2002, they said they didn't want to do the death penalty and that was one of the concessions the government made.
Speaker 1:Okay, okay, so I guess where are you going from here? What is it that you're looking to? I'm sure you're wanting to help more down there. What is it you're looking to do in the future?
Speaker 2:Great question. The need for training never ends. So what I'm hoping is to bring additional people that want to see this, that want to contribute, that want to get involved. I encourage them to fact check me. They go and do all the research online, maybe reach out to the prison director. And you know, I've taken teams. Now it's been going on five years now that I've taken teams. I have not taken one person down there that did not say that it changed it. Every single person that took down there said it changes their lives. To see people you know, just with so much pride but with so little you know, and but still to be working hard, to be so eager and hungry for training.
Speaker 1:It's encouraging, yeah yeah, and I mean I don't see it at that level, but I do training around the country and when you go to the small jails, that don't you know, I worked at the federal bureau of prisons ton of money, ton of training. But you go out here to some little county where they got small jails and those people are, I mean, they're just focused on you, they're just soaking up whatever you can give them. So I'm sure it's like that only a thousand times more to have those people down there.
Speaker 2:And also the inmates. You know, sitting and talking to these inmates, you know it's not, you know it's not common for an American to be going in there and investing time into them by talking to them and the training that I provide them. You know anger management, how to be a father when you're incarcerated, and it resonates with them because no one they're not receiving it otherwise. So you know that's. That's part of, I think, why I have the safety that I do down there is, you know, these guys, these higher ranking gang members, are the ones that I'm providing training to. So the word gets out then you know to to leave me alone. And you know, speaking of the guy, it was a former gang member that went to prison in California. You know he's told me repeatedly and you know he, you know he's, he's on the streets, he knows that he goes, they know who you are, but you know there's an order not to mess with you. He goes.
Speaker 1:They know who you are, but you know there's an order not to mess with you. Wow, that's amazing. That's just amazing what you've seen. So what's the next? So is this part of an organization? Is this just you, just me, Just you, just you, okay? So do you make phone calls and say, hey, they need this, or how do people help? I guess is the next question, great question.
Speaker 2:So you know there are always needs. You know, with every need you can imagine the person could have, they have it. So you know it's. You know there's really not. Like you know I don't try to fundraise for the prison. You know what I do is I try to find a specific need that they have at the time right. So at one point, you know, the prison director, you know, reached out and said you know we don't have the budget for prison officer uniforms. So you know he was concerned because he's putting the new officers out there on the yard with inmates that some of which don't have uniforms so you know that are in civilian clothes that they showed up to the prison with, don't have uniforms that are in civilian clothes that they showed up to the prison with.
Speaker 2:So that is always one need is the cloth for them to sew to create their own uniforms. So what I would say is anybody that is interested in getting involved in either maybe going down there and seeing it firsthand or at least having a discussion about what could be done to support this prison, is welcome to reach out to me. I do have a company. It's not affiliated with the prison, but I do human trafficking consulting, and so my website is my last name, so it's wwwsadulskicom, and anyone can reach out to me from there and we can address, we can get on the phone with the prison director and talk about the specific needs of the day.
Speaker 1:Interesting. Wow, that's just fascinating. I can't even picture it. I've been 30 years in corrections and I can't even picture some of the stuff that you're telling me.
Speaker 2:So if we could put in the notes. So I've written a lot of articles and I've taken a lot of pictures and so maybe we can include those in the notes because you know it'll walk through, you know really the years of this work and it'll include the pictures of how the prison was and how the prison is today.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, we can absolutely do that and, along with your contact information, and, and uh, I'll look up the the uh websites for these uh uh videos here so that people can get an idea and watch those documentaries. Thank you very much, just amazing. Anything else you want to tell us?
Speaker 2:Nope, I just want to thank the corrections officers that are listening. It's sometime the forgotten pillar of the criminal justice system, but it is certainly equally as important and it's an honorable profession, and you guys certainly have my support.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you very much. I appreciate everything you're doing down there for them because I have brothers around the world. We're still brothers and sisters. We all do the same job in some form. Some of them don't have as much, some of them have more, so thank you for being on here. Absolutely Thanks for the opportunity. Let's check back in in a year and see what's changed down there and you can talk some more about it. That'd be great, thank you. Have a great day. Thank you.
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