121: ILEETA Conference 2026 - Building a Tribe of Trainers - Interview w/Joe Willis

In this episode of the Prison Officer Podcast, host Mike Cantrell speaks with Joe Willis, the Deputy Executive Director of the International Law Enforcement Educators and Trainers Association (ILEETA). They discuss the importance of instructor development in law enforcement, the unique offerings of the ILEETA conference, and the value of networking and community among trainers. The conversation highlights the diverse classes available, including certifications, and the significance of emotional intelligence and decision-making in corrections. They also touch on the future of training, including innovations in technology and the importance of collaboration across different sectors of law enforcement.

The nights matter as much as the days. Emerson Hour hits hard with nine-minute talks that spark laughter and tears. Tuesday stacks an author meet-up, whiskey night, and a competitive cornhole tournament. Wednesday shifts to a relaxed lounge and cigar night, and Thursday’s Symbols of Service brings a patch and coin exchange plus trivia to honor identity and build bonds. It’s deliberate by design: connect, learn, reflect, repeat.

We bridge a divide that should not exist: patrol, corrections, and community supervision share core skills. Decision-making under pressure, emotional intelligence, defensive tactics, less lethal judgment, and investigative thinking belong to the entire justice ecosystem. Add the future-ready edge—VR, synthetic training environments, and panels led by researchers and seasoned trainers—and you get practical tools you can apply on day one.

Ready to join a world-class community that raises the bar for training? Subscribe, share this episode with a fellow instructor, and leave a review with the one skill you think trainers overlook most. 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:34

Hey everybody, welcome back to the Prison Officer Podcast. My name is Michael Cantrell, and today I want to I want to introduce you to um Ilita. If you haven't heard of it before, it's the International Law Enforcement and Trainers Association. I've been a member since 2015. And but last year was the first year I got to go to the conference. And I was so excited, so hyped. Matter of fact, the hypes lasted me all year that I wanted to introduce everybody else to it. So if you haven't been there before, I'm we've brought in Joe Willis, and he's the deputy executive director, correct? Welcome to the Prison Officer Podcast, Joe.

SPEAKER_03 1:13

Mike, Michael, so glad to be here, man. This is I've I've been looking forward to this. I follow your podcast. I think it's an absolute incredible service that you're offering. And I I I'm I'm it's a pleasure to meet your audience, and it was great meeting you in person for the first time last year.

SPEAKER_01 1:28

Yeah, thank you, thank you. Uh I enjoyed meeting you. I I I have talked to you about this before, but I got to meet so many of my mentors last year. I came to the conference and all these law enforcement people that I'd been reading articles about and that I'd been reading books, you know, and they're there. They're in person, and you get to go sit in their class. And um it was just it was it was ten times more than what I expected it would be. Uh so tell me about how long I lead has been around and and tell me about you know this conference and how long we've been doing it too. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 2:05

I lead has been around since 2003, and we're almost uh up to our 25th year, and uh the organization was started by Ed New Wicky when he realized that there was a an absence of trainer development. So law enforcement training was happening, it's happened for for generations, right? Uh, but when it comes right down to it, the instructor development, a lot of what was happening was just pass from one generation to the next, and the opportunity to build on instructors and and how they were presenting, there wasn't uh a large emphasis on that. So there were a series of other organizations and conferences that existed prior to ILEDA, uh, and they all had great intentions and there were a lot of great things happening there. But basically, as ILEDA came along, it became very specific about a couple of things. Uh, one was if it's good for the members and we can afford to do it, that's what I lead is all about. And we want to make sure that members get as many benefits as they can, but overarching, that they develop and grow as instructors. And so that has been the legacy all along. It was passed from Ed Nawicki to Harvey Hedden, and don't get me lying about the year that happened. Um, in 2024, it was passed from Harvey Hedden. Uh Harvey and Barb Hedden passed it over to Ray and Jen Merlin and myself and Joe Johannox to kind of take leadership at that point.

SPEAKER_01 3:28

Excellent. You know, and you're talking about it perfectly. The instructor development, and I've watched this in corrections, and that's part of the reason I wanted you to have come on here, and I wanted to introduce Aileita because in corrections, so much. You go get a certification, and you're an instructor, and that's the last time anybody ever talks to you about it. And you may be a firearms or defensive tactics instructor for 20 years and never get to go back and learn what's changed, what's new. And that's all I lead is about, isn't it? Keeping up number Yeah. How many people have come to ILEDA last year?

SPEAKER_03 4:08

So we were just under 700 instructor attendees, but then you've got staff, you've got the uh expo vendors, and that sort of thing. And so, all in all, it's about a thousand-person foot traffic throughout the week that are at the conference. And so, in the in terms of like massive law enforcement conferences, we're not there, we're not IECP and that sort of thing. But when you look at the folks who come to ILED, as you've already alluded to, it's the um people who are truly dedicated to training. And a lot of these folks are the one-off sergeant overseeing training or that person who is has left the the job on active service and they've moved on to the private sector to do firearms instruction or DT or legal or whatever, and they're looking for their tribe. It is 700 people like that, roughly. We're we're trying to hit 750 this year. Um about 700 people of that mindset. You know, um uh Lieutenant Q, uh drawn a blank on his name out of Omaha, Nebraska, uh, coined the phrase um tribe of trainers for us. And that's literally what I lead it is. It is your tribe of trainers, it's people just like you. And so, yeah, roughly 700.

Conference Scale And The “Tribe Of Trainers”

SPEAKER_01 5:28

I felt that last year. I truly did. Um I I mean, I was there for five days. I kept talking, you know, you don't want to stop any conversation. I'd be sitting up there and we'd be having coffee in the morning, and we're deep into stuff, and I gotta go to class. And I I just enjoyed, and and then every night we'll talk about that some more, but there's stuff going on that people don't know about and they've got to know about because it's so exciting.

Morning Buzz: Coffee, Networking, And Classes

SPEAKER_03 5:54

But let's talk about the the the coffee and the uh that morning thing, right? So, like there's this buzz that happens starting at about seven o'clock every morning. So uh the donuts come out, and yes, the stereotype of donuts at a cop conference, but we've got a great donut supplier uh right there in St. Louis who really does well with the donuts we can supply, but we've got fruits and all that kind of stuff. But badge brew coffee, say again. There were apples too. There were apples too, that's right, and plenty of apples. Um, and the uh badge brew coffee sub supplies the coffee for us. And so uh Mike and Brandy out of Illinois, uh great coffee product. And so as you rally around those coffee conversations, whether it is in the expo hall or uh down in the uh in any of the coffee break areas, there's that buzz that's happening where people are starting to connect, getting ready to go to class. And it's like you said, it's hard to break away. But those first in the morning conversations, and the Union Station is a great gym too, if you're looking for a good morning workout, and um, they've got uh you know that that morning piece, but then you go to the room where that first class is at eight o'clock and it starts, it's like full on, get ready to go, you're gonna learn all day. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:07

Uh tell me more about Union Station because that's such a place to have this conference. It's so centrally located. It it it uh the hotel's right there, everything's there.

Union Station: The Perfect Venue

SPEAKER_03 7:17

Yeah, so uh if you can imagine the heart of St. Louis, you've got the the stadium and the arch and like literally where the heartbeat of St. Louis is, that's where Union Station is. And it is one of the most historic areas in the city where literally it was the hub of America, right? The the gateway to the west was literally this building. And so now what they've done is they've completely refurbished it over the last, well, since we've been there in 2017 when the aquarium wasn't there, there was no Ferris wheel, there were like two restaurants. At this point, it has become this massive hub of community and and kind of rebuilding of a really great area. But in the hotel, so you've got this massive train shed area that they they call the midway, which is where you know people would come and get their tickets and all that kind of stuff. That's where the expo happens. Then on each end are great classrooms, so plenty of places to train and work and yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:15

And and I enjoyed having the the access to the restaurants too, close. There's some inside Union Station, but I got with a couple of groups and we were just like, hey, come on, we're gonna go grab a burger and a beer over here, and we'd sit there and talk for a couple of hours, and so that was nice too, having all that well.

SPEAKER_03 8:31

Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, so like right across the street, an amazing Irish place, Maggie's. Uh they uh, you know, typical Irish pub type place. Uh, and it's by the way, the Alita conference is over St. Patrick's Day, so I would not go over there on Tuesday night. I'd come to our Tuesday night event, which I know you're gonna ask me about in a minute. Then behind is like great uh like restaurants, Landry's, all that kind of stuff. And then don't forget Sugar Fire Barbecue is right there. Yeah, you know, that's that may have been where you guys went, but there's I mean, so many good restaurants. Yeah, if you're a foodie, yeah, it's the place to go.

Food, Local Spots, And Easy Access

Class Depth: Use Of Force To Presentation Skills

SPEAKER_01 9:06

So, how many classes? One of the things I enjoyed was the fact that I got to just pick. I just went here and there. And classes, I mean, when I've been to other conferences, you know, sometimes you go to this class and it's one person standing up, and yeah, they they know what they're talking about. But I went to like use of force with Von Klein from Force Science. I mean, do you know what that would cost? I mean, that does I know what it costs.

SPEAKER_03 9:29

I know what it costs, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 9:30

Yeah, but you you walk in there, you take a class, you go next door, they got corrections classes, which we're bringing on, we'll talk more about. Uh but there was use of force classes, there were uh PowerPoint classes, what's his name? Uh Z?

SPEAKER_03 9:43

Well, instructor Z Zarzosa, Antonio Zarzosa, and Dan Fraser, two of the I would say law enforcement's best, the nation's best, the world's best, when it comes to presentation skill and and actual presentation development, two of the best. They present amazing classes.

SPEAKER_01 10:02

Where else could you get that combination of classes, you know, in a week? You just can't.

SPEAKER_03 10:07

And so to answer your question, Mike, there's um so uh 138 is what it actually works out to as far as total classes this year. And uh that includes panels, that includes you know, the full spectrum of things, 450 plus hours of training available. So here's what that actually works out to and why this is so important is you take a two-hour block, 8 a.m. on uh Wednesday morning. Let's just pick that one. There's about 18 classes, somewhere between the minimum we have. There's uh two blocks that have only five classes by design so that people can go to the expo. But other than that, it's somewhere between 18 and 20 classes most of the week. There are a couple that dip down as low as like 14 or so. What ends up happening in that time is you take all of those people, divide that up, and some are out at the range, some are walking the expo. Uh, what ends up happening is you've got classrooms that have roughly anywhere from about 20 to 50 people in it. And once in a while you go to uh kind of an obscure class where maybe there's less than 10. But that's perfectly fine because what ends up happening is the most authentic conversations and true instructor development. It's not one plenary speaker at the front of the room with hundreds of people in front of them and no time to engage. It's authentic, real engagement.

Certification Tracks And Less Lethal Options

SPEAKER_01 11:30

I think another thing that people or I didn't know, I think some other people don't know, it's not just classes like you would have at a normal uh conference or the ones I've been to before. There's certification classes. So you can go knock out some certification while you're there. Yeah. So that's a big plug.

SPEAKER_03 11:53

The Legacy, the 10, and the uh body worn camera. Sabre has certifications. We're doing Pit this year, uh certification-wise. So I mean, so there's there's a lot of certifications, but for your audience specifically, we're uh, you know, when we were talking about facilities like that, there's so many less lethal uh certifications uh you know available that I mean it's just it's incredible. Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 12:21

So I've spent all day going to classes, I've eaten the donuts. What are we going to do in the evenings?

SPEAKER_02 12:27

Yeah.

Emerson Hour: Nine Minutes, Big Emotions

SPEAKER_03 12:28

Valid question. So uh let's let's just talk first about Monday night. And if you if you don't mind, I'll I'll kind of and I'd love for you to ask any questions and we'll kind of chat about what each of those nights are, because kind of curious from your perspective about each of the nights as well. Uh, Monday night is Emerson Hour. Now, Emerson Hour is a tradition that started in 2013 by Brian Willis, no relation, and if so, he would have been my much smarter but slightly older brother. Um, the uh um it begins with the simple question posed by Ralph Waldo Emerson what's become clearer to you since we last met? Six speakers are challenged with that question and given nine minutes to answer it. Think of uh TED Talk meets speed dating. And so uh in those nine minutes, speakers who are unknown to the audience, like the audience has no idea who to expect. The other speakers don't even know who the other speakers are. Someone stands up, moves to the front of the room after Todd Fletcher, the Master of Ceremonies, introduces them. They come to the front of the room and from the heart give a very uh polished, very authentic answer to that question. Dude, I will tell you, I mean, everything from like the most sincere laughter to just straight up uh tear jerkers. There were tears last year. Yes. Yep. It is it is incredibly powerful. And you know, Todd's an amazing master of ceremonies, too. Like as the the MC. That's the MC's job is to pick those speakers, and uh he just he nails it. Nails it.

SPEAKER_01 14:08

Yeah. It truly did last year. It was moving. Yeah, I mean, I wasn't expecting it to be that moving. And you know, I I thought it was gonna be more of a TED talk, but I I think it's so much more it's an emotional TED talk, it's a real TED talk, is how I would describe it. So yeah, that that was that's a hell of a way to start the week.

Tuesday: Authors, Whiskey Night, Cornhole

SPEAKER_03 14:29

Absolutely. It sets the tone, and then afterwards we have a little bit of a hospitality that I oh by the way, sorry, uh Mr. Marauder, uh Warrior's Heart, which by the way, coincidentally not intended, I'm using their coffee cup right now. Uh, Warrior's Heart sponsors that night, and they've just really elevated the the level of it. Like it's just such a professional event, and the way Todd MCs it and Warrior's Heart has has put their heart and soul into it too. And so we do a little bit of a hospitality afterwards, and the buzz in that hospitality is people are uh literally just kind of sitting around in these small groups talking about what was happening, kind of prepping for the week, it's the ideal way to start off.

SPEAKER_01 15:12

Yeah, yeah. Um it's like nothing I've ever I've been to a lot of conferences over the years. I've never seen anything like it anywhere. I don't know anybody else that does anything like that. So yeah. You gotta come and if nothing else, you gotta come get there.

SPEAKER_03 15:29

Get there early though. I'll tell you this much. Get there early. Um I'm the deputy executive director, and I was sitting on a shelf on the left hand side because I I couldn't get in there fast enough to get a seat. I I will tell you, there is uh I mean it is standing room only if you get there late, and it's worth it. Stand there for an hour because it is the conversation is amazing.

SPEAKER_01 15:49

Tuesday night's probably my favorite besides the Emerson hour. Tell us how it's gonna go on because it's busy.

SPEAKER_03 15:55

Yeah. So, I mean, here's the thing Tuesday night started a long time ago with um Milo, and Milo is kind of a name brand, like everybody knows them as the Milo Range, they um, you know, the simulators, that kind of stuff. They wanted to do something to uh recognize and and spend some time with ILEDA members. So they started this thing where it was they called it Whiskey Night, and they had tickets at their booth, and you would come by, you get a ticket, and kind of go to whatever room they were hosting this in, and it was super cool. I remember going to it back in Chicago, it was a lot of fun. But what they did once they got to St. Louis back in, I think it was like 2018-ish, maybe 2019, they kind of raised it up a little bit. They said, We want to have food there, we want to kind of turn it into more of a larger social event. So we went from this thing that was maybe several dozen people in a room to a couple hundred, and it really escalated quickly. Well, then Command uh presence comes along, you know, John Boston, Michael Warren, just a great group. I in fact, I think you know these folks pretty well. They came along and said, uh, what we want to do is add a cornhole night or a cornhole game to it. And so they have this cornhole tournament. And if you don't get there early to sign up, go to their booth and get signed up, you're not getting in as a team. Like it fills up fast. And so we've got cornhole going, we have the uh whiskey night that I leave our uh Milo's always done. And then last year we started, we brought back the authors event, which actually kicks that off. So to go into this, you pass by these great authors, like I don't know, um Michael Cantrell might be one of them. Uh pass by some some authors and uh you know, kind of check that out, have conversations with them, and then down there is food, beverages, and cornhole. Does it get any better?

SPEAKER_01 17:44

It it didn't. I mean, it was just amazing. And and I think everybody at ILEDA was there. They they stopped by one of those three places.

SPEAKER_03 17:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:54

And and I'll tell you, so here's the other thing. Like, this is one of the things I love about ILEDA. Like, this isn't just Joe is the you know, one of the guys who is, you know, deputy director. It it is the member in me that says, when we go to those events and you stand around a table, and like you said, you you meet your mentors, and suddenly you'll look and you'll be like, wait, who just came over to this table and is enjoying this conversation with us? And it is there's sure there's professional conversation, but it's also this really cool opportunity to connect with people like you who share a lot of those same interests and meet up with friends that you haven't seen in a year, and so it's a really good social event. Like I would say one of the highest quality social events that you can go to anywhere.

SPEAKER_01 18:41

I know it was a ton of fun, and everybody came out of there smiling. Uh it was a great time.

SPEAKER_03 18:47

Yeah, absolutely.

Wednesday: Lounge, Cigar Night, Connection

SPEAKER_01 18:48

Walk me through the uh Wednesday night. Yeah, so thank you.

SPEAKER_03 18:53

Yeah, because that's it's not new. We've always had hospitality nights on Wednesday and Thursday, so that's not new. What is new is this. So uh we were at a conference uh back in I don't know, May or something, and we run into these guys in Hawaiian shirts and they got surfboards at their booth, and I was like, What do you what do you guys sell? What do you what is this? And so we we start chatting with them, silencers. So silencer shop is the uh I would say of of fun people to be around and hang out with. I they're at the top. I they they're too cool for me, honestly. Like they they're just really, really cool guys. And so we're chatting with them and we're like, you know, what could this look like? And they said, listen, we want to do something fun. And and I said, Well, we had this kind of ad hoc um cigar night last year. And it literally it was people showed up with their own uh little you know humidors that they travel with or bags or whatever, and we just kind of sat around and had cigars during hospitality night. Then over on the Pegram room side of the midway, they were still over there throwing bags as uh kind of informal cornhole games and you know, kind of chatting and that sort of thing. And so, but they were separated. Well, this year, uh Jill Johannix, who's the director of business development, is working with the guys from uh Silencer Shop. And so what they did was they condensed everything. And so now what we have is almost if you can imagine like a wine bar kind of experience, but kind of intimate space. We have that available now, and it goes out into the courtyard where we're gonna do the cigar night. So very much a low-key lounge type experience, lower volume, not the the big impact and the loudness of the cornhole night, but more of a just come hang out and socialize. Kind of a dip in the the momentum, but at the same time, I think it's gonna be even cooler. Not not even cooler than Tuesday night, but even cooler than it's been on Wednesday nights. Like I can't imagine uh anything like it.

SPEAKER_01 20:56

Well, you need to come down a little bit after Tuesday because they had rock and roll going on Tuesday night last year. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, they did.

SPEAKER_03 21:02

So yeah, it'll be a good one. And don't forget Tuesday night is St. Patrick's Day this year. So wear green. Yeah, I guess. Wear your green and and come out, just just be ready to have one. And the thing is, this is the other thing I like about ILIDA. Sure, there are those one or two people who maybe uh have a little bit more than they should, but for the most part, it is a very professional, responsible crowd who knows they've got to get up at eight and o'clock, eight o'clock in the morning because you don't go to those classes unable to go to those classes. You need to show up ready to learn and ready to be turned on. And it it is, it is just an entirely professional event.

SPEAKER_01 21:40

I think the classes are so important to people. I absolutely agree with you that they're gonna make sure that they're in good shape in the morning to go get what they came for. At least I know I I I think that way. So absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 21:52

Yeah, and I'll tell you, I mean, there's uh no, I'm I'm sorry to interrupt you. The one of the the pieces of advice that Brian Willis always gave was Tuesday night or uh every night of the week, sit down and just kind of jot down notes from the day, spend a little bit of time in reflection before you go to bed. Great metacognitive space, kind of reflecting on the day, thinking about what you thought about, the conversations you had, get that out, and then in the morning, jump back up and kind of start making notes for the day. And it basically switches your brain on, get ready to go and learn. And so the audience we have at ILEDA is very prepared for that.

SPEAKER_01 22:29

Yeah. I I like that. Wake up in the morning, read where you stopped, you're ready to jump. Right back into it.

SPEAKER_02 22:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:36

Yeah.

The Guidebook App And Shared Folders

SPEAKER_03 22:37

Kind of get your schedule down for the day because again, it gets fast paced. You know, like we were talking about at the beginning, you go out there, you grab that coffee and get a little bit of the morning buzz thing happening, and then uh eight o'clock, you're in a classroom, and literally it is some of the most meaningful instructor development conversation you'll have all year. And so, and it's your tribe at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_01 22:58

So while you're talking about scheduling, let's talk about the app.

SPEAKER_03 23:03

Oh, yeah, yeah. So uh the guidebook app is probably the most important thing you'll have in your hand all week, right? It's uh your schedule, it's the constant um chat that's going back and forth. There's a you know photo sharing component to it. But starting, I wanted to get it out this week, and and actually everybody I'm I'm gonna just go ahead and admit it. I'm the one that's holding it up. I haven't got the schedule in there yet, but uh all the vendor stuff is already set up in there. Jill got all that done. Uh, but it is the go-to source for that schedule. Thank you to Caden AI for sponsoring that. And it is, I can tell you, it's going to be absolutely amazing as far as how well it keeps people on track. It's great. I love that app.

SPEAKER_01 23:46

That's exactly what it did last year. I'd be lost looking, you know, and it's all right there in your phone. So well, literally the map, right?

SPEAKER_03 23:53

So uh I'm going to uh Mike Cantrell's class, uh, I click on his name. Oh, there's his folder, there's that, there's and there's the map to his classroom. And it's all right there.

SPEAKER_01 24:05

Yeah. Talk a little bit about the folders. I think that do you see that in other places, or is that I mean, I think that's kind of new. The fact that a lot of the instructors have pre-filled their folders with information for you before you ever walk in the door. I love that.

SPEAKER_03 24:19

And that's something we started last year that I'm I'm super happy about. That basically, so you know, we're both teaching, and and so what you have is the ability to go to your folder and drop whatever content you want to share with people. And maybe that's you know, just a face sheet, here's my bio, that kind of stuff, but that's not what I'm seeing. I'm seeing legit like research, there's research papers that otherwise I would have to be, you know, a member of a school to go get, right? Like there's there's that, there's you know, I went into the firearms instructor folder just a little while ago. Dude, dozens of things, like great drills, all kinds of PDFs you can get access to. And so all that's gonna be available uh starting on the 23rd, it goes public to all members. Right now, it's just public to the instructors, but every attendee will have access to all those folders on the 23rd.

Thursday: Symbols Of Service And Swaps

SPEAKER_01 25:18

That's amazing. What a resource, what an absolute resource. You're gonna take stuff with you, not just not just your own notes.

SPEAKER_03 25:25

Yeah. Yeah. Hey, can we talk about Thursday? That's what I was gonna ask. Is there something Thursday? Yep. There sure is. And this one uh shout out to everyone who is coming to the um to the conference. Um we have the uh it's called Symbols of Service, and it's sponsored by Combative Firearms. And uh what Todd Fletcher wanted to do with that night was kind of turn it into one of those spaces where we could exchange stories, but also patches and coins. We wanted to do a really good patch and coin exchange, and so Thursday night is dedicated to that, but we're also doing trivia that night. So be be prepared. Bring your thinking cap, uh, but also bring your patches and coins because it's gonna be an absolutely amazing event for that purpose.

SPEAKER_01 26:11

Yeah. Uh I know a lot of people that I knew attended and they they they were excited and they came back with stuff that they couldn't have got any place else. Because you're talking to people from all over the country and swapping patches. It's not just your backyard. Right. So, yeah. Yep, absolutely.

Opening The Doors To Corrections

SPEAKER_03 26:26

It's pretty cool to have you know a patch from another country or a coin from another country. Um so yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:32

So one of the things that uh I you know, last year we started talking about it a lot, and I know you guys have been thinking about it longer than that, but that's giving corrections that invite. You know, this is a lot of people have thought this is just for law enforcement, just for you know, on the street cops, but the instructor classes that are there are for anybody teaching law enforcement corrections, even dispatchers, even uh, you know, um emergency response.

SPEAKER_03 27:00

Um and thank you for asking about that. And I and I actually I I kind of want to engage in the conversation with you. You and I had a brief conversation on our Learning Lab podcast the other day, but kind of in this space for this audience, the the relevance of it. Here's here's the the way that we look at it. So um there are very few things that are instructor development related that don't cross from one side to the other. And even those that do, there's still contextual things we can pick up on, still some changing of ideas, and when you see a good instructor instructing, it's motivational. And so one of the things I really liked about it, and and I got this from the class that uh you and Captain McRoberts and uh Gary York and some others, yeah. Ron Um, the conversation that was happening there was I don't think I even knew. Like I always kind of said it, like it's all relevant, right? I mean, we if if I am with a small team of uh road police officers and I make entry into a bathroom, it is the same to take somebody down. It's it's a uh confined area, and the tactics are largely the same, right? And uh there's so you talk defensive tactics, you talk um any of the interpersonal skills, any of the mental health stuff, it's it spans. And I I've always been kind of uh frustrated with the well, that's that's you know, law enforcement only conference, but it's not. And then hearing you all talk about it, and I'd I'd rather just you know kind of turn it back over to you and kind of and answer some questions for you. The relevance became even more clear to me that it it matters across full spectrum.

Shared Skills Across The Justice System

SPEAKER_01 28:48

Yeah. Corrections isn't someplace that people often look, but and I talked about this on a podcast not too long ago. Correctional officers are often very good decision makers. And that's because of the fact we get so much practice, you know? You're making sometimes life-altering decisions multiple times a day, like a police officer, but that makes very good decision makers, and but we don't take care of them the same way. We don't teach them about decision making, we teach them about use of force, you know, in a riot situation, we teach them about riot control. Um, but the big things we kind of miss, and I think law enforcement has been ahead of the curve for a long time when it comes to emotional intelligence, when it comes to the you know decision making and how to make a decision and uh all that type of and they're not soft skills, they're absolutely hard skills too, right? But we need that. And this is one of those places where corrections can come. And if you don't want to go to that class, you don't have to go to that class, you can go to that class. You can go, and I I've told you before, I was so lucky because I went outside of my profession and went to law enforcement class. I became a breaching instructor with cops. I I went to leadership classes with cops because that's what was available to me at the time. But we've got very we've got specific corrections classes this year, and they're growing every year. And if you don't want that, step over because you're absolutely right. Less lethal decision making, uh force science, their classes. I mean, it doesn't matter if you're a cop or correctional officer, that goes down the same lane where we're facing the same stuff when we're dealing with an inmate or a suspect. So uh it's so open, and I just want to see the instructors come and be part of ILED. Um, I know that you guys have opened your arms and said we want you here, we want you to be part of it. And that's part of the reason we're doing this, is because I'm gonna put this out on my social media and and just show everybody in corrections, hey, there's something there, because I didn't know that. I know there were a couple of when I was back in 2020, a couple of conferences wouldn't let me go because I wasn't law enforcement. A couple of organizations wouldn't let me join because I wasn't law enforcement. Even though I was on a statewide SWAT team, I was you know, canine, I'd done this stuff, I couldn't be part of their organization because it didn't say law enforcement. And so we're past that now. Way past it. And you guys have your arms open. I'm sorry. You guys have your arms open. You you have just you've embraced us, all of us, Gary and uh Robert, McRerts, and you know Bob Duffy.

SPEAKER_03 31:29

I I'll tell you, and and we were kind of running down that list, so you you take um well, even uh Ian Tyndall and um the the rest of the crew coming from Australia, that's corrections-based stuff. And you know, the across the the world, there are great things happening in corrections. And and you and I have had this conversation uh a couple of times in different ways. The when we look at the ability to read a room, the uh implicit use of emotional intelligence, there are few professionals who have the uh the requirement to do it right, like correctional officers do. Because unlike uh law enforcement that has uh a much broader population and um the ability to you know interact with uh a different a different population throughout the day, the and are armed all the time, uh that's not the the same. And there's a lot of interpersonal skills, a lot of defensive tactics training that come with just natural training and experience of working in a facility that aren't necessarily the same emphasis uh when it comes to the other side of the profession. And I've always looked at this, and and I think you know you agree, but uh you you said something earlier that kind of caught my attention is it's one profession, just two sides of the same coin, right? Like it it is at the end of the day, one set of job over here, one set of job over here, and it's the same group of people with the same heart to serve in the same way in very dangerous environments. And so um, you know, you got down in the DT room, Bob Duffy, you've got um, you know, the the soft um and not smart, not soft skills that you're teaching on emotional intelligence. You've got Gary York talking about escapes, you've got Ian Tyndall talking about a communication system. There's a lot of great stuff happening that corrections officers are teaching that I think the other side of the coin, the other side of the profession, should really be paying attention to.

SPEAKER_01 33:35

We're all sheepdogs. Both sides are sheepdogs. True story. You know, so um one more thing I want to say about while we're talking about corrections, the thing I learned most about um corrections, and I'd been in this 30 years when I started the podcast, there's been more than 160 countries tune into the Prisoner Officer Podcast. ILEDA is an international law enforcement association. Okay, so I'm inviting everybody out there. I have people listening from Thailand. 11% of my listeners are from Australia. Uh wherever you go in the world, there's somebody sitting in a broken chair watching an inmate in a cell. That's just that's what I've discovered, right? So I just want to make sure everybody knows this is ILITA, it's international. Um, so all those countries, if you're listening, reach out, look this up. Um it's just amazing.

Firearms, Less Lethal, And Scenarios

SPEAKER_03 34:30

Yeah. And there's something for everyone, and and it's it's interesting you said that because we're talking, you know, corrections, but even within corrections, there are uh and you you've actually kind of helped you know shine a light on some of this for me through through the work you're doing, is there's an incredible investigation component to corrections. There are special reactions teams on the side of that coin as well. And so while I kind of knew it, there's a lot of light that's being shined through these conversations that I don't know we would have had otherwise. And so as you look at uh whether or not it fits for investigations, yeah, there's some great investigation classes that happen every year at ILEDA. There are um, you know, if if you are in a position, and kind of help me out here as far as um uh firearms for guards. I know you've got towers, I know there are times where uh correctional officers will use uh and have positions requiring firearms. Do you mind explaining that to me?

SPEAKER_01 35:33

No, most correctional officers are going to be uh qualified on um at least a weapon. I would say most of them are qualified on shotgun, pistol, and rifle, uh, especially if it's a prison. Now, maybe not the jails. They may just be qualifying on pistol or or some some uh maybe shotgun with that. But if you're working state or federal prison, you're qualifying on all three every year. A bunch of firearms instructors out there. A bunch of fire, those firearms instructors are at Fletzi. I mean, we actually have some of the top firearms instructors in the country that teach in the bureau. Um so if you want to up your game, you want to talk to people like Todd Fletcher, who I've been walking around watching on YouTube forever, you know, um, this is the way to do it. You you mentioned uh, and I never get his name right aside.

SPEAKER_03 36:21

Mayub, yeah. Masadioub, yeah. Yeah, he's a good one. Unfortunately, I don't think he's gonna be there this year, but there were times where I mean that was like, you know, so cool to see him for the first time.

SPEAKER_01 36:32

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Uh so yeah, absolutely. Uh Less Lethal, you mentioned that. That's huge. We've got I think some of those companies.

SPEAKER_03 36:42

Outside like firearms type. Uh, you got uh the Less Lethal for Patrol, there's another munitions course. Uh then we've got um three different uh chemical irritant courses, um uh use of force instructor by defense technology.

SPEAKER_01 36:58

So, I mean there's there's a lot of that option. I'll tell you what, I'm waiting for too. You mentioned Milo. I talked to Milo earlier this year about corrections specific uh scenarios, and uh so I'm waiting to see those come out. I'm excited about that, and uh you know, we'll be able to step up there with a 40 or step up there with a pepper ball and uh actually go through those scenarios. So that will be amazing for corrections.

SPEAKER_03 37:22

Absolutely, man. So, but that's the other thing. Let's I mean, at ILEDA, so you will have those opportunities to engage with industry, and this is what we tell our vendors. If if somewhere out there a vendor is listening to this, don't show up to the expo expecting to just kind of sit in the booth and people walk by and grab some you know lollipop off your table. That's not what's gonna happen at ILEDA. You're gonna get trainers who know a lot about this industry and a lot about this space. And it's gonna be Mike Cantrell stopping by a virtual reality booth and talking about the hard details of how come you don't have corrections in your stuff yet? And where's the less lethal options that I have available to me? Can I fire a 40 millimeter? Do you have 68 caliber? Where where are we at on these things? And ask the hard questions. So just be ready for that.

SPEAKER_01 38:11

Yeah. I I was impressed last year. One of the booths that got me, and I don't, I'm sorry, I don't remember the name, but they had virtual reality and they had um these pistols that you engaged, and I was like, Oh, that looks like uh you know a toy. And uh Miles Cook's the one that said it's not a toy. And I walked over there, and this thing weighs like a pistol. You drop a magazine, you you do this, and it drops the magazine, and it's virtual, I think, is probably who got yeah. Yeah, it was amazing. I had never touched anything like that before.

VR, Synthetic Training, And The Future

SPEAKER_03 38:42

So cool. And I mean, and actually, this is one of the things I was gonna challenge you with get involved in the conversation this year as we talk about the synthetic training environment. There will be a much larger conversation about what that is and what it's becoming. And the pan there's a panel every day talking about something you know that's largely applicable. And on Monday is the future of training panel. Um, it's uh headed up by Jennifer Hall. She's the uh sergeant out of uh Louisville and is um just a phenomenal researcher, she's got her PhD, uh, but she's a great cop, and and that's you know her background there too, right? So she's the right person to lead this. But on the panel, off the top of my head, you've got um Paul Taylor, myself, Justin Witt, and um uh Lon Bartell. And so in that group, we're talking about what the future of training looks like, and as we kind of lean towards what the you've got the synthetic training environment, but you also have the where they the an analogy I've been using lately is where real meets synthetic meets real again, and that's where this this training happens, and you've got to be able to transfer it, and there's so much to be discussed there. So I'm asking you, you know, my get get involved in that conversation with us this year from the corrections perspective.

SPEAKER_01 40:03

I'd love to. I was just on a uh morning show with a couple of guys out of Canada, Keith and John, and they were talking about MOLT. Have you seen this? And you type in, I want to move through this virtual area, it's like a video game as a big pink rabbit. And so you can do whatever inside there. You're inside a world, everybody you're and it's bigger than a video game, and it's it's more it's more detailed. And my brain was going, I could put them in a prison. I could walk officers through a prison. That would just, you know, be so amazing that there's no other way to do that. Con X boxes doesn't do that, cardboard walls doesn't do that. Um but to be I think that's where we're headed with some of that stuff, and I'm excited for it.

SPEAKER_03 40:47

Have you ever done one of those um like either the roller coaster or walking on a tightrope wearing a virtual headset? I have not. So our brains don't recognize threat differently in a virtual environment than they do in the the real world. And so as you are walking on a tightrope, and especially if wind's blowing and the sound is appropriate, it literally feels as though to your your unconscious mind, the limbic system of our brain, that we are in this space, and it's uh a way of getting after um some stress inoculation, right? But also, as you just said, kind of creating that realistic scenario. Uh, a few years ago, I went to Axon's conference and there was a demo of a um VR capability, and this was before law enforcement had really started to invest in it. It was more, you know, in in other spaces. They did they took us through a scenario as social workers going to a home to remove a child. And the it was law enforcement context to a certain extent, but it was definitely more social worker oriented. And in that moment, like you're you're able to look around and see 360 degrees, the wind is blowing, and there's clothes on a uh clothesline, and you're you're walking up to a trailer, and there's a a child there who looks lifelike is is real, and that's the the kid that's there, and the mom and dad are there, and this was I don't even know how many years ago, but it was incredibly realistic.

unknown 42:16

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 42:16

We're there, man. That's where training's happening.

SPEAKER_01 42:19

Yeah. My wife is uh and this is just kind of odd that she was an elementary school teacher when school for it, and I guess babies they would put them off over like a picture of a canyon. Little babies, you have you don't learn that until you're like a couple of years old or 18 months old, whatever it is. They'll just walk out there, and then as you get older, you learn that there's a reason to have fear. And so visual will do that. That's a that's yeah, that's what I thought of when you were talking about that.

SPEAKER_03 42:47

Even when you know it's not real, it's still real to that unconscious part of your mind. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:53

It's amazing. Absolutely. Did I miss anything? What else we uh got going at Ailita?

SPEAKER_03 42:58

No, I I think you hit the nail on the head uh across the board, everything we've got going on. I mean, we've we've spent a great 40 plus minutes together, kind of having this conversation. So I think you you hit everything, only there's so much more, right? Like I know you and I could literally sit here and talk about like all the greatness and and all these great classes. What I really wanted to, and oh, uh, for the um uh community corrections, probation, parole, it was so awesome meeting. I know I'm I'm guessing you probably got a little bit of that audience as well.

SPEAKER_01 43:31

Doug Scheit is uh he he's a probation parole officer, great guy, great trainer. Uh, I'd heard of him before I came to ILED.

International Reach And Community Corrections

SPEAKER_03 43:39

Yeah, yep, and he's on our advisory board and is just uh a you know, phenomenal trainer, but he's also one of the one of the nicest guys you'll ever meet, right? Like I just loved uh love talking to him. Um, but I did not realize, once again, like the connection we have until you know, sitting down talking to him, how closely related a lot of these things are. And there's for your community uh corrections, probation parole, there is a tremendous amount of crossover as well. And so we had um last year we we had a couple of different instructors from from that community come uh hoping to get some back for 27. But in the meantime, in fact, actually, if you are an instructor, yeah, do you mind if I I plug that real quick? Sure. Absolutely. Okay, if you are an instructor and you want to kind of step out onto the world stage and have this conversation. conversation, join Mike and some of the others that are uh pushing the the boundaries of where these two lines meet on that same side of the different sides of the coin. Um put your proposal in and follow us on illeita.org and I'm sure you know Mike you've you've mentioned I lead on your podcast many times. When the proposal window opens on June 1st I may bug you to kind of drop the the mention to everybody to say hey we're seeking proposals and we want to see you there because there's there's a conversation to be had and we want all aspects to be part of it. I've shown a little bit of my ignorance today but I genuinely appreciate what Gary and Mike and Captain Mac and Ron and all of these others have done to help educate me over the years. There's an entire profession that needs all aspects of this conversation and we'd love for you to be a part of it.

SPEAKER_01 45:26

Probation and parole even even an old dog like me can learn something because last year I had somebody tell me and it makes perfect sense. Probation and parole is routinely put into situations and places that law enforcement trains a lot for and probation and parole doesn't get that same level of training. But they're dealing with people who are in or out of uh jail corrections, whatever. They're dealing with emotional situations, they're dealing with domestic stuff all the time. But they don't get that same level of training that sometimes law enforcement gets to go deal with at the same places. So this is a great place to come and get your feet into those areas get your get your butt into those seats in those classes that will help you with that.

SPEAKER_03 46:11

And the arms are open like you said you know the the we we not only welcome but we want the c connection. We we want this engagement we want the interaction and we want to learn from each other and share when appropriate so yeah the more the merrier and everyone is welcome.

Submit Proposals And Grow The Conversation

SPEAKER_01 46:32

As John Boss saying teaches me, iron sharpens iron. So we can absolutely sharpen each other. As one man absolutely sharpens another so if you're listening to this please go to ilita.org go check it out take a look at the conferences uh if not I started off looking at the journal too we didn't even talk about the journal uh every quarter great articles from those same people who are gonna be doing instructing uh so check out that check out the uh journal um check out the membership of course and and you get access to all that stuff um any final words Joe no Mike I I think you you hit the nail on the head thank you so much for just letting me be here and kind of talk about this organization that you know we we both love very much and uh share the ILEDA story as as much as we could in this time but there's so much more to it and so you'll have to join us in St.

SPEAKER_03 47:26

Louis to get that.

SPEAKER_01 47:28

I know you've been busting your butt thank you for everything you do uh because I've been watching I watch you work and work and work make sure all this goes perfectly and it does and so thank you for everything you and Ray and uh everybody does for to make this a great resource for all the rest of us.

SPEAKER_03 47:45

Yeah and and from my perspective do you mind if I pass that on to the volunteers and Jen and Jill and uh the conference staff and I mean we would be absolutely lost without the support of everyone else so I will take your compliment and with gracious acceptance but I'm gonna pass it on to everyone else. Perfect. Have a great day Joe.

SPEAKER_00 48:06

You too the fundamental philosophies and principles of the organization have stayed consistent since the start. It's about the membership it's about us facilitating training that's going to raise the bar for the profession as a whole facilitate that learning and that growth for people in the profession that are interested in what we can do to do a better job to prepare our people for the complexities and the challenges of the profession that they're in association that's committed to trainers and to training that also happens to run a world class conference.

SPEAKER_03 48:46

We have an entirely packed schedule over the course of a week every night at ILEA is designed to get trainers to connect to each other and to the industries that support training and law enforcement.

SPEAKER_00 49:08

Once you've been here once then you'll understand what all the buzz is about is more than a conference it's not just sharing of academic theories it's practical application for that research and that information it's important to have a connection with like-minded people who are going through the same struggles have been through the same struggles knowing that you're not alone and that you have people that you can reach out to is something that a lot of trainers need.

SPEAKER_03 49:41

This conference will always be the corner so this conference will always be the pilgrimage that trainers take every year to find one another.

SPEAKER_00 49:49

So just that connection is a critical component and an important piece of being part of this community of trainers which is what it is