122: Desert Waters - Transforming Correctional Officer Wellness - Interview w/Justin Stevens

In this episode of the Prison Officer Podcast, host Michael Cantrell speaks with Justin Stevens from Desert Waters, a nonprofit organization dedicated to correctional officer wellness. They discuss Justin's journey through the corrections system, the importance of leadership and training, and the role of peer support in addressing mental health issues within the field. 

The conversation also touches on the normalization of trauma in corrections, the need for a wellness culture, and the public's perception of corrections professionals. Justin shares insights on how Desert Waters is working to improve staff wellness through training and resources, emphasizing the importance of confidentiality in peer support and the need for a shift in how corrections staff are viewed by the public.

justin@desertwaters.com

https://desertwaters.com/

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Transcript

PepperBall Sponsor Message

SPEAKER_00 0:34

In more than 28 years of corrections, I have used or supervised pepperball hundreds of times. Now, as a master instructor for pepperball, I teach others about the versatility and effectiveness of the pepperball system. From cell extractions to disturbances on the wreckyard, pepperball is the first option in my correctional toolbox. With ranges up to 150 feet and hoppers that can hold 160 rounds, Pepperball is perfect for controlling large crowds or group disturbances on your yard. Pepperball allows for non-lethal direct impact to control inmates who refuse to comply with lawful orders. And area saturation allows you to achieve buffer zones between groups, or use it for area denial to keep inmates away from security equipment and other accessible areas. To learn more about Pepperball, go to www.pepperball.com or click the link below in this show's information guide. Pepperball is the safer option first. Hey everybody, welcome back to the Prison Officer Podcast. My name is Mike Cantrell, and today I've got uh Justin Stevens from Desert Waters, uh, which is a company that cares about corrections wellness, correctional officer wellness, and we're gonna we're gonna meet Justin and we're gonna talk about that. Um before I bring him on, let me introduce him a little bit. Uh Justin Stevens, uh, before his employment with Desert Waters, Justin was employed for 17 years by the California Department of Corrections. Uh during this time he worked at the Division of Juvenile Justice and the Division of Adult Institutions in both high security, medium, and low security prisons. He promoted to lieutenant, at which at which position he served for 11 years. During his career at CDCR, he had the opportunity to train staff for 15 years, six of which were as an in-service training manager, held certifications in use of force, alarm response, communication, de-escalation, and master training for trainers. Additionally, he spent years assisting in the development of leadership and develop and um supervision courses. His passion to train has always been to keep staff safer and healthier in the corrections environment. That is why he taught Desert Waters course. Uh the and we'll talk more about this. The name of it is From Corrections Fatigue to Fulfillment. He taught that for two years as a certified instructor while at CDCR. In addition to training, Justin served as a local peer support team for six years. And Justin and his wife Vanessa are blessed with four children and live on a family farm in Tennessee. That about cover it, Justin. That's about my life in a nutshell. Well, welcome to the Prison Officer Podcast. I know it's taken us a couple of tries. I was sick last time. I think you've got a couple of little ones sick right now. I got those four little blessings running around sick right now. So Yeah, that's tough. There's been crud going around the country right now, so everybody's got a little bit of it. So I always start these off the same way. I want to learn about you. I know the listeners want to learn about you.

Early Career, Promotions, And Hard Lessons

SPEAKER_01 3:29

So tell me where you grew up and uh Well, I grew up in a town called San Luis Obispo, California, which is uh has zero gang activity. Um it's by the beach, like everyone just surfs, and you know, there's a college town there, so if people do get in trouble, it's from drinking, not from anything else. So naturally I wound up in corrections. Um you know, it's what every kid wants to be. Uh no, actually, I I wanted to get into law enforcement. Um I became a uh California High Patrol Explorer when I was about 18. And I did that because I was really fast at running and they needed a 5k runner for their um little activities they do so that they could win some extra points. So I did that on the guise of I'll find out where all the CHP hide and I won't get any tickets in my Acura Integra. So, and you gotta keep in mind, Fast and Furious had just come out, so my Acura Integra was ready to go, and I didn't want to get any more tickets. So I did that, and I was like, you know what, I like this cop thing. Um I was gonna I was in school at the time to be a pharmacist, and I just couldn't see myself counting pills, and so I was like, I I want to do this cop thing. So I decided to count inmates. Yeah, it's count either way, you're counting indoors, you know. Sure, sure. Um I don't know what's more dangerous, pharmaceuticals or inmates. Absolutely. I think that's for another podcast, so inmates and pharmaceuticals. But uh yeah, I I applied for everything. And in California there was a budget crisis like there always is in 2005. So I couldn't get hired anywhere. I I applied like every small town where I was at, and they wanted us to pay for our own academy, which I couldn't do. And then I I applied for LAPD, which is just dumb, like looking back on it. Like like talk about dangerous. Yeah. And so I applied for adult corrections, and I got a phone call one day from the uh youth authority, California Youth Authority, and they said, Hey, we pulled your application from the adult side. Uh, would you like a job here? And I was like, What does it pay? They said the same. Okay, I've never I had never heard of the youth authority, and it was only about 20 minutes from my house, and so I was like, Yeah, I'll do that. So I went to the academy like four weeks later and uh did the youth authority for about three years, uh, three and a half years until we closed down, because I mean if you're in if you're in corrections, you know uh juvenile system goes up and down uh depending on where they want to house them, uh what what department they're part of. So from there I went to the adult side and I used my time at the juvenile side to promote to sergeant at about three and a half years. I promoted to a sergeant at a high security prison. Okay not knowing adult corrections. Dumbest thing I've ever done. I I like I I couldn't tell you I didn't know the processes, I didn't know the rules, um, I didn't know the culture of the prison. Like it was just dumb. And I went one day, I had just bid into a uh yard spot. Right. And it was supposed to take effect on Monday. Well, I ended up promoting on that Monday, and so I kicked out the person that was there before because I had more seniority, and then I became the sergeant and on that yard. It pr it wasn't a good in introduction to the staff. And luckily, I had a lieutenant that kind of took me under his wings, and he he saved me. And he taught me pretty much everything. He taught me how to be a lieutenant um after he taught me how to be a sergeant. And I worked for him for about three three to four years until I promoted to lieutenant. Um switch prisons went medium security, which is like really nice compared to working high security. I worked there for 11 years. Um that's where I did six years of training manager. Um it really just took a focus. What I make it sound real rosy, but that time from sergeant to lieutenant, uh, my personal life went through hell. And I ended up going through a divorce, um, having a baby not with the person that I went through a divorce with. Um, and then I got married. Uh real backwards cycle. But we see that, right? In corrections. I mean, that's like, oh, yeah, that that happened yesterday to Johnny down the street. Um and so my my lieutenant uh introduction to being a lieutenant was very rough because I had no focus on my job, and I self-proclaimed I was really good at it, but I didn't I just wasn't focused. I I I couldn't run a yard. I was kind of floating around in a relief position, had no no buy-in. And then luckily I was able to turn things around. Um I met my wife in prison, is what I like to tell everybody. Uh she she was a nurse out there, and uh I turned my life around and really got into uh training staff, and I I found that that was what you know we always talk about, hey, you know, I want to walk out of the gate safe. And as a sergeant, I wanted my staff to walk out of the gate safe. And that's what I always did. Like I I focused on the tactics of what we did. And then all of a sudden it was like, well, wait, um, especially after taking the corrections fatigue to fulfillment course, was like, wait a minute, not only do we have to walk out of the gate safe, but we need to be safe on the outside. Um, we need to be mentally safe, we need to be well. Um, you know, okay, I walk out of the gate safe, but then I go drink a 30-pack when I get home. It's not really a good thing. Right. Um, and so I I really changed my focus uh around 2018 when I was uh training manager to just kind of focus on staff. Um and I really did that until the end. Unfortunately, my last year I I had some administrative changes and I just did not get along with the new administration. Um and so I took it upon myself to remove myself from the j job before before they removed me. And so I went back to the to the line and I I worked the line my last year um it had so much fun. Uh you know, I was i getting back to like what prison work was all about and uh had fun with the boys, got to go out there and you know, still do some training, but still uh still interact with people and interact with inmates.

SPEAKER_00 10:44

It was a lot of fun. You feel a lot of fun. Do you feel like you were uh probably a better leader at that time when you went back because you had dealt with some of what you'd been dealing with, learned about some of that? Way way, way better.

SPEAKER_01 10:57

Um I mean night and day. Like uh well, especially compared to when I was like a total screw up.

SPEAKER_00 11:05

Less focused on yourself and more focused on back on the staff now. Yeah.

Refocus On Training And Wellness

SPEAKER_01 11:09

Well, yeah, and and you know, I I'm able to point out where people are are messing up, and so many times, I mean, you have those officers that just are gonna buck the system. But you have employees everywhere that are gonna buck the system. They don't they want the paycheck, they don't want to do the work. But then you have people who are truly going through something and who are truly going, you know, I mean, we have life outside of work. Um, you know, they're they're going through a f a fight with their spouse, and then they have to come in and they have to manage 200 inmates who don't want to listen to them. Um it's a recipe for disaster. And so it it really was some an eye-opening experience to come out back to the line and be like, oh, like I it's almost like I have the playbook now. Um I could see what's going on, you know. Uh that was nice. Um unfortunately, the last year I came my career came to an end. I got medically retired. Um I had I got I got so in California the COVID vaccine was big. Um I don't know if it was where you were at, but I they d mandated it, but in the early time they highly recommended it. Well I got it, and then I like two weeks later I got a blood clot in my leg, and then my liver my liver took a crap and not from alcohol. It was uh from that. And so they ended up medically retiring me, which was a blessing because I get to go I got to go to Tennessee and live on thirteen acres and but it you know it kind of messes up your mind a little bit where they take the career from you that you work, you know. In California it was like I gotta hit that 30 year mark, and it's like, but I only hit 17 seventeen. And uh and to be taken out by something so stupid, it was like I I always thought, you know, an inmate would take me out, not not a COVID vaccine. Um I I have some lasting effects from that, which made my work at Desert Water so nice because I can I can train, I could be around correct correction staff, but I don't have to do the job that I'm not allowed to do anymore.

SPEAKER_00 13:23

Right, right. So even retirement, you feel like that job get taken got taken from you. I did. You know, I invested thirty years in it and I I retired, but still when you walk out the door, you're so ingrained in this system and and this life that um you know my stripes were taken, or you know, per se, I was a chief at the time, but you know, you get your rank taken, you get all the people you know taken, so I can see that absolutely what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_01 13:52

Well, and you see in retirement people, you know, you go from I mean, on shift we had 250 officers. Um and so you go from possibly having connection with 250 people to now you're going home and you're making coffee with your wife that you haven't talked to because you've been doing overtime for the last you know 30 years, you don't even know who you're who you're drinking coffee with, and that connection's gone now. And so yeah, you I mean you hear stories all the time about you know, uh unfortunately the suicide rate's so huge. And even in retirement where you're like, oh, it's something great, they're finally out, but they weren't ready for it. You know mentally they weren't prepared to go to their next uh I mean it's almost a battle because you're battling yourself. Sure, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_00 14:43

Let me go back, I wanna go back just a little bit because you said you worked juveniles and then you made that transition to adults. For people that don't know, what what's the difference between the two? I mean I know what it is, but it's nice.

Medical Retirement And Identity Loss

SPEAKER_01 14:56

It's it's night and day. Like so I I you violence wise, I always say that um the kids were more violent, but they didn't play for keeps. Um so I would have I would I would have about a hundred and fifty fights a month uh because it was like street gang rival stuff. Um you know, and being a sm a kid from a small town, I didn't know what gangs were, so of course they they made me the gang investigator on my unit, which made absolute sense. But I I really dove into it to learn it, and um but but yeah, you'd have this violence there that was just constant, but they weren't using weapons. Um I actually saw a couple times where people would have like a broom in their hand where if someone came at me, I would swing the broom and they dropped the broom to fight heads up. And I was like, wow, that's that's interesting. And then you go to prison and it's like weapons um, you know, they're playing for keeps. And so the violence was much more violent, but it wasn't as much, you know, and you got the you got to lock them down more. Um the juveniles have so much, so many rights um that you know you just even if you have a riot, like we had open dorm setting, we'd have a riot, and all you do is say, Hey, stay in your bed, don't do that again, and hopefully the next day we can have a normal program. Yeah. Um you know, where in the adult side you're looking at, you know, maybe a month lockdown before you come back to program. Um Yeah, I think the other difference is the respect. Um you know, you walk into an adult institution, there's a mutual respect that happens. Um it's a it's not a normal respect like we see on the outside, but you know, it i if you work in a prison, you know what the respect I'm talking about is. And so I can walk into an adult side uh prison and know that the inmates aren't gonna talk crap to me unless I deserve it. Um they they may say some things on the tier or whatever, but they're not gonna talk crap personally to you um all the time. The ju juveniles, holy cow, if you have any insecurities, do not work at a juvenile prison. They'll find it. Um I I Story, I I don't know if I should tell all your listeners this one, but I I w jumpsuits. So I don't know if you had jumpsuit. We had a jumpsuit in California, you had to wear it at the academy. So of course I'm gonna keep it because I'm cheap and so I I kept the jumpsuit going instead of wearing the two-piece. Well certain body types just don't fit in a jumpsuit. Um I was a runner, I was I was skinny, but I was tall. And so, you know, you go to reach something up high, uh, that jumpsuit's coming up with you. And so I had uh what people would call assets in the back end um just from my running. And so I walk into this juvenile institution and they call me J Lo. And like I'm a 21-year-old kid getting into the department and they're 18 and they're calling me J-Lo. I felt like I walked back into high school and was getting, you know, uh bullied again.

SPEAKER_00 18:22

And so you're 30, that's funny.

SPEAKER_01 18:24

21, that's that's that that ruined me, you know. But the f the funny thing is though, one of the kids that was I mean, they went on for three the whole three years that they said this. Even if I switched jumpsuits, it didn't matter. I was JLo. They one of the kids ended up going to the high security prison that I was at. He beat me there. And he saw me on the yard as we were searching coming through. And talk about that respect issue. He he looked at me and he was like, Don't worry, I'm not gonna say it. And sure enough, he he never never said it while he was there, but at the youth authority he he would have been yelling it from across the quad.

SPEAKER_00 19:08

I picked up the uh um the nickname of Nacho Libre for quite a while in the SEG unit. So I I would have rather had Nacho Libre than JLo. That's good. That's good. So when did you make the connection with uh Desert Waters? So Desert Waters was interesting.

SPEAKER_01 19:27

Um tell us what it is.

SPEAKER_00 19:29

I guess maybe it's there.

SPEAKER_01 19:30

Okay, so Desert Waters Correctional Outreach, it's a nonprofit um where we train correctional staff and other first responders in corrections fatigue, in trauma, in um peer support. Uh we actually have a supportive uh the supportive correctional supervisor course um that we teach where we we look at training corrections supervisors and how to really go put wellness first. Um and so we we train staff, we um train trainers so that they can train their staff. We will go to departments. Um we have a safety net accreditation program where we'll look at your accreditation program or your sorry, your wellness program, and and accreditate it kind of like the ACA accreditation, um, where they look at more security and programs. Um we have a safe haven program where we will come in and work alongside the department to build up their wellness program to uh something that's operational and actually works.

SPEAKER_00 20:40

When you're accrediting one of those, what are some of the things you're looking for that they have in place?

SPEAKER_01 20:45

Well, uh we look from everything from their policies, um you know, ensuring that they have uh that their employees have access to wellness services, to mental health services. Um we look at their training because you know there's so much that goes into wellness. It's not just, you know, oh, we have an EAP program and we're good. Um so much of it is even training the staff. Hey, you know, because if we can train the staff, we can prevent so much from happening down the road. Um I'm sure it's the same when you got in. When I got in, wellness was not a word.

SPEAKER_00 21:26

Uh show up and for 10 minutes on annual training, they'd tell you that there's an EAP program, here's a pamphlet.

Juvenile Vs Adult Corrections

SPEAKER_01 21:32

Exactly. And my I my warden actually at the high security place told me that uh take a shoebox and put your personal life in it, wrap it up tight, and and set it outside your car when you get off the exit on the freeway, and uh leave your personal life in there when you get to work. And then when you leave work, pick up your personal life and put your professional life in there and go home. And that was so when I was there it made sense, but in practice you can't do it. You can't I I mean there there's absolutely no way, and it was the worst advice a warden could ever give their staff. Um you know, but going going back to Desert Waters, I mean we we have um so that accreditation the accreditation program, getting back to it. We have eighteen standards that we look at, go through um looking at their program, their policies, their training of staff, um and And really that's getting off the ground. Um, but our I would say our bread and butter, what we're what what what we're known for is our training. Um our from corrections fatigue to fulfillment is kind of the flagship course that people have heard about, um, and that's from corrections fatigue to fulfillment, uh, looking at corrections fatigue, that cumulative buildup of stress of work thrusters, um, and what it does to us, and then how we can combat that and be fulfilled, basically. Um and all of our courses kind of touch a little bit on that, um, on that course, except I'd say the peer support. That's kind of a standalone um, you know, looking at training peer support teams. Um we also offer uh you know free magazine um electronically every month. So I get that. Uh the correctional oasis, you can go to desertwaters.com and sign up for that. I mail it out uh the first of the month or second if it's uh the first is on a Sunday. And uh that's just stories from Katerina Spineris, who's our founder, she's a psychologist. Uh she is an accidental correctional professional. Um never worked for corrections, but she understands us more than we understand ourselves. It's kind of scary. Um smart, smart lady, and she's uh she's helped thousands of people. And the some of her, you know, she she always writes an article or two in there. Um and then she takes articles from other people, other corrections professionals, um people who work for Desert Waters. Sometimes we write stuff too, and she puts together just a great magazine that kind of shows what people are going through, you know.

SPEAKER_00 24:25

Um and we'll put that link in the show notes if anybody wants that. Yep. Awesome.

SPEAKER_01 24:30

Um we also have a ventline email, um, ventline at desertwaters.com, and that's exactly what it says. It's a ventline. Um you can put on there, you know, because a lot of times like I have a problem with going on at work. I don't want to talk to work people about it. Um I don't want to go and do peer support because maybe I don't trust them, or I just don't get along with the peer support team. And so that vent line email is like ability to go in there and say, hey, this is what I'm going through. I don't like it, and every single one of those will get a response. You know, usually it's from Katarina. She's amazing with words and going to the heart of the problem. And uh just i it it's a good resource. Um, you know, the 24-hour hotline, they they used to do a 24-hour hotline, but staffing is just an issue, you know, and and as you probably know, people organizations love funding inmate run programs. Yeah. Um staff run programs. It it it's not it doesn't get the same uh appeal to it, and so you know, the the funding is very difficult and all of that.

SPEAKER_00 25:46

That was one of the reasons I uh that I understood from some people I knew that we went to a national suicide hotline because some places had good funding and some places the funding had you know go in and out, so they wanted some place that people knew was going to be funded. Yeah. You talked about peer support several times and you were on a peer support team. What does a correctional officer need to hear from a peer that they won't accept from a supervisor?

SPEAKER_01 26:13

Is that is that part of the Well, I'm I mean the f I I was a supervisor at the time when I was doing peer support, so it was kind of uh it but I took that supervisor role off when I was on the peer support team, you know, or when I was, you know, engaged. Um basically it's just an opportunity to talk. You know, a lot of times we um in ka in California we started with like a uh trauma-based peer support um, I think it was employee trauma program or something like that, where we would go out and talk after like major incidents. You know, you'd have a riot, like let's let's talk about it, let's debrief. Um but what the peer support team really did there was it opened up the door to talk regardless of the issue. Um so I could talk to somebody that I work with instead of going to you know, because we let's face it, we don't go to mental health professionals. You know, we we don't go to counseling. Um it's a great service. Um in California, they provided it for us, but we don't take the time or we think, you know, the stigma of people are gonna view me as weak if I do this. And so the peer support team kind of opens it up where I'm talking to people I work with, you know, and we would always talk in a confidential setting so it wasn't um no one would know. And it was just the ability to talk about issues, you know, um either something they're going through at work or you know, I talked about talked with people about uh they were about to go through a divorce and they were just having trouble, you know, at home. And really what it was was I was able to talk to them, um, they would open up, and then I would I would provide them resources that were available to them. And so my whole goal was to get them to go to counseling if they needed it, or to get them to, you know, the help they needed. Um, but it was kind of that bridge where it was safe um to do. And it really changed the culture from you know, at first like, oh, peer support, like I don't I don't need to talk to my peers, to we would have referrals all the time. You know, or it just became like hey, I'm gonna go to Justin's office and sit there and talk to him for a little while. And it wasn't a official peer support, but they knew who I was and that I was safe to talk to. Yeah. And and I think the cool thing about peer support is depending on where you work at, there are some really good laws that are getting created that protect the confidentiality of peer support work. Um I I think Washington uh state has some of the best laws. Um But even in California, like everything was confidential. We didn't write anyone down, we didn't like if we had a meeting, I would say I met for one hour and f there would be a little bit more data tracking, but it had nothing to do with what we talked about or who I talked about. Right. And you know, that makes it safe for people to come in and talk about any issue. And unless you're talking about hurting yourself, hurting others, or criminal activity, I'm never bringing up again.

What Is Desert Waters

SPEAKER_00 29:42

Yeah. So confidentiality is it's gotta be the number one, and we haven't always had that. I I will tell you without a doubt, the thing that kept me over and over again from ever having anything to do with EAP was because it would end up uh you would hear what other people went to EAP and then it would be out there and the you know people talking about it. And if you had any aspirations of being a supervisor, um, if people were talking about how you couldn't handle home life, when that came up in front of the board, or that how are they going to look at me? And I know how they looked at me uh or other people. So the confidentiality was the one thing I never trusted. Now that was years ago, and we have gotten better, uh, but I think as supervisor or administrators and supervisors move forward, that's absolutely the thing they need to protect the most. Yes because without it, it's useless.

SPEAKER_01 30:35

It it'll tank any wellness program. If you lose confidentiality and things start getting out on the tier that came from you know a peer support meeting or um even talking to a supervisor, you know, you you have that trust and the employee comes to you and says, Hey, this is what I'm going through, and then all of a sudden it gets out on the tier. That any wellness program is gonna tank after that.

SPEAKER_00 31:03

So it definitely is one of those things that you have to keep. I'm gonna take a look at that uh at Washington and some of their stuff because I'm I'm interested in how they're writing that.

SPEAKER_01 31:13

Yeah, they they have some good laws. And there's it's funny because there's I I I forget the states, but there's some out there that first responders, as far as like police, uh EMS, fire, they have some really great laws. And then currections is excluded from the law. And so it's like it's a bummer to see, but I think the push is that corrections is getting included in a lot of that.

SPEAKER_00 31:43

Yeah. How uh you know, in corrections, and this is something I talk about, is the normalization of trauma. And and police officers' dispatchers, they do it too. Um I I tell a story, I probably told it on the podcast, where I'm standing there one day after we've had a killing on the floor, and I've got my orderlies out and they're mopping blood, and it's strung everywhere. And I've been waiting all day to eat. And in my lunchbox is a baloney sandwich. So I step into the office, I grab my baloney sandwich, three o'clock in the afternoon. I'm standing there eating it while I'm observing, you know, these guys doing this, and one of my buddies comes off the elevator and he goes, Are you okay? I'm like, Yeah, why? He goes, You're standing in blood, you know, up to your shoes eating a bologna sandwich. He said, That's not normal. I'm like, I was hungry, you know, but we normalize that stuff that would freak people out anywhere else. Um how much does that come into what you guys talk about and what you do?

SPEAKER_01 32:42

Well, I I think it's uh I think it's a survival response. You know? And and a lot of times I I think in the beginning of my career I would look at it as I'm tough because I can I can go to a I I I remember going to an autopsy when I was at the high security place and the what is it, the doctor that does the autopsies. I forget Yeah, corner. That that's a bad guy. Um but he's eating a jelly-filled not just a jelly-filled, a red, like a raspberry jelly-filled donut over the body. And I'm just like, that it not over the body, because that would contaminate things, but like close enough to where I'm like but but but that's the normalization that he has in his job. And and we're the same way. I mean we we get to a point where it becomes normal, and then what do we do? We have that dark humor to make fun of it, um, or to make jokes, to make light of the situation, because that's how we're gonna deal with it, because it's not normal to see some of the things that we see. Um, Katerina uh Spineris, my boss, she it she hates it when I call her my boss, so I'm gonna show her the podcast that says, you know, I I I call her boss lady sometimes, and she gets so mad at me. She's like, I've never I was never meant to be a boss. But she was telling me a story when I was in training back in 2018 that was when we see a fight inside the prison, no weapons, just a fight, what do we call it? Oh, that was a poo butt fight, that was you know, whatever. Two swimmers. Well she said, now now take it back and go to a your local grocery store and go to aisle three and have two guys start fighting in there, and then a 70-year-old woman who's never seen anything in her life walks by that aisle and see those two guys fighting. That's the most traumatic thing she's ever seen. And and that's that's going to affect her in a way that it doesn't affect us because we're so numb to trauma. We just look at a fight and like, oh, that's nothing. It's not normal to see violence. Yeah. Um, and so that that's one thing, you know, working um yeah, we see it all the time. Of you know, we we try to normalize it, we try to function, and really all it is is a way to survive inside the prison.

SPEAKER_00 35:10

Yeah. There's a report out there somewhere. I think it says the average human being sees six or seven traumatic events in their entire life. You know, and if you work at a high security prison, you'll see a hundred a year, maybe more. Oh yeah.

unknown 35:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:25

I think my first year at the high security prison, I was I had a hundred, I was the the response supervisor on a hundred and twenty-five incidents. Now, some of those were drugs, some were we found a weapon, but a majority of them were violence. Um, and that was just one year.

SPEAKER_00 35:44

So you told me you did 17 years, and you kind of talked about, you know, you had your personal uh struggle in the middle of that. But when in your career did you realize that staff wellness was so important? Did you see it in others? Did you feel it in yourself?

Accreditation, Training, And Resources

SPEAKER_01 36:01

Well, I think so. I I go back to the you know how we feel w about walking out the gate. So when I was at the maximum security, I I really focused on hey, we we hit the gate together. I mean, we walked out as a facility. Um the camaraderie was really great there. And that I thought that was staff wellness. Um I I never knew staff wellness. Uh like I said, that word didn't exist. So that to me that was staff wellness at the time. And so when I went to the lower security prison, it was weird because the camaraderie wasn't there. Because you're not going through battle every day.

SPEAKER_00 36:42

You don't so it's the foxhole thing.

SPEAKER_01 36:45

Yeah, and you you don't have the buy-in of like, hey, I'm gonna walk off the yard with everybody. Um actually as a lieutenant, they were like, Hey, we had it was a big facility, so they would drive us around in golf carts, and my S and E would pick me up early and drive me up to the front for my relief, and so I wouldn't even I'd go out the back door in the golf cart and wouldn't even walk out with my staff. And that was just the the culture there. And so I think when I finally focused on wellness was when I got into the CF2F class, um Corrections Fatigue to Fulfillment. I I had never heard of the class, I never heard of wellness, and when I took that class, um I realized, wow, a lot of stuff makes sense now. And when I said a lot of stuff made sense, I still was like, but they're not gonna buy into it. And then we went and started training it, and it was like, oh, they're buying into it. Like I like this, and then I could start focusing, you know, on staff wellness a lot more.

SPEAKER_00 37:50

So I uh doing a little study for this, I ran into a deal and I noticed that in the same article, I'm just gonna throw this at you, and if you don't have an answer, that's fine, but uh it it listed uh it talked about wellness programs, and then in like three sentences later, it talked about wellness culture. And in my mind, those are two different things. I feel like I came up in the era of wellness programs. Here's this program, you can go over here, you can ask for this, as opposed to I I think there's a lot of places who are building a wellness culture. What what does that make sense? What do you think? No, it does.

SPEAKER_01 38:25

Well, I I think I get what you're saying. And and the the wellness programs, I totally agree. There's a lot of places that are throwing darts at the board um on different programs and hoping it'll work. Um or throwing darts at the board saying, hey, at least we're doing something, and and and something is better than nothing. But culture is such a huge part in making wellness work. Yes. Um I I saw at my prison, and I'll give you an example, when we rolled out CF2F, we had probably the best administration we could have for that. Um they were a little heavy on inmate programming, on rehabilitation programs, which put staff off at first. You know, when you have a warden who says, Hey, I think you should create a book program for the inmates. As a lieutenant, it's like uh that's not my job. Right. Um but when you have a wellness culture and you're looking at the wellness of of all human beings, it it changed it because for the longest time we were looking at the wellness of inmates, right? We're rehabilitating them, and I mean we put an R in California Corrections, you know, it's like there's an R there now, like what does that mean? And so we're focusing on the inmates, and now all of a sudden we have this course where it's like, it's for staff. This is amazing. And it started to change the culture to to looking out not just looking out for everybody, but then also it made almost everybody human in the prison, which is a weird feeling when you don't look at an inmate as an inmate, you look at him as a human. Okay, which there's nothing wrong with that. Yeah. Um and all of a sudden people started buying into doing not just their job, but doing extra stuff. Yeah, maybe I maybe I will do a book program. Like I'm not doing anything at work, maybe it'll help me out, you know, later. And that the culture at the prison I worked at, we we saw our incidents go down, and and there is a lot of factors. I mean, we we went um sensitive needs, which i is kind of like protective custody, um, you know, the gang dropouts and the um people who can't walk the main line. Um so we had a couple yards go sensitive needs. Um we had the right administration, um, but our incidents went from 700 a year down to like 150.

SPEAKER_00 41:02

Yeah.

Peer Support And Confidentiality

SPEAKER_01 41:04

To the point where the high security guys like myself were sitting there going, I'm bored out of my mind. Like, I'm not working at prison anymore. Like, what's going on? Um but everyone was doing good. The drama of staff stabbing each other in the back wasn't there. Um you didn't have supervisors who were cutthroat, you didn't have people, you know, and I'm talking staff, uh, fighting about anything. It was just a nice place to work. Um and I got to s I got to see that. And then the funny thing is we got that new administration I was talking about, and it went from a hundred and fifty incidents a year, and we started upticking back up to like five hundred. And again, we had some program changes which added some of that, but it changed to instead of focusing on wellness, it changed to focusing on safety and security again. And f solely safety and security. And when that happened, um the bickering came back, the cutthroat behavior came back, the uses of force went you know, sky high. And it's like I could see it, you know, like looking at it now, I can see that the culture and the training worked. Right. But so many departments don't see that you can't read into the future. So, you know, how do I put a hundred thousand dollars into a program? And I just threw that number out there, I made it up. But how do I throw a hundred thousand dollars into a program and hire new staff and do all of this if I don't know what I'm gonna get in return? And but that thing they get in return might be a a diamond necklace, you know, but they're they're comfortable with not having it.

SPEAKER_00 43:04

Well, you know, for for the supervisors and administrators are listening, you know, it takes number one, it takes buy-in. You have to set the standard, you've got to start building that culture. And it it takes work. There's no doubt about it. You know, it it's easy to come in on midnight shift and throw down pizzas. That's not wellness. That matter of fact, I I've seen that piss off more officers. Because I mean, they don't stay there for it, they throw them down and go, hey, we'll see you later. I'm going home, go to bed. Um That that was actually my first wellness program in the high security place.

SPEAKER_01 43:40

Whenever we had a major incident, I would go grab pizzas or burritos. But were you there?

SPEAKER_00 43:45

Oh, yeah. Were you there? Oh yeah. That's the difference.

SPEAKER_01 43:48

And I I do remember this one time we we had this we had a riot, pretty big riot. It was uh northern north and south Hispanics rioting and 120 staff involved. Uses a force were I I think we had around 200 uses of force between chemicals and 40 millimeters and the mini fourteen, all of that. And so, you know, I I'm gonna get pizza. And I was sick and tired of buying pizza for everybody because we had had this was like our fourth riot. And so in like a four month period, so I'm I'm my whole overtime check is going to food. So I take, you know, my partners pitch in, I pitch in, my lieutenant pitches in, well, the captain's there and I go, Hey Cap. Um we pitch in every you know every time for food. Um you haven't been pitching in the last couple times. Uh would you mind pitching in this time? And he goes, Oh, yeah, I I I got it this time. You you got it this time? Yeah, I got it. Uh okay, so we don't need to? No, I got it. Here's my card. Uh get it. And I'm like, okay. Well, this is 120 staff. I need a lot of pizzas. I think I hit his credit card for about three hundred dollars. And when he got that receipt, he was so mad, and I'm like, hey, it's for the staff.

SPEAKER_00 45:11

You can't you can't complain it's for the staff. A lot of times, and one of the things I'll often end the show with is, you know, ask somebody how they're doing and then take a moment to listen. Exactly. And that's what I discovered in my career. Now you can buy the pizzas, you can buy the subway sandwiches, but if you drop it off and run, they got nothing out of it. But if you stand there and just have some conversations and let people vent a little bit, or let them just talk, or let them get to know you and you get to know them, that's where the real culture comes from.

SPEAKER_01 45:45

Well, how many times do you remember walking by people in the prison and saying, Hey, how you doing? And you say it out of courtesy, I guess, or programming, but you're not waiting for a response. You know, you're hey, how you doing, and you keep walking, you never even hear what they say. If if they were to say, because their answer was probably good, but if you said, Hey, how you doing, and they said bad, would you have registered that and would you have stopped and talked to them?

SPEAKER_00 46:15

I became very intentional as a lieutenant, and we had to make rounds to every unit on our shift. Yeah. Um, and you want to get this done. You know, I got so much shit to do, so you know, that's an hour out of your night. But I got very intentional of forcing myself to stand there for a minute, even if they said good. And I I don't watch sports. I'm not a big sports guy. I've never sat on you know the couch and watched an entire sports deal. Um, but I started learning about sports so I'd have something to talk with them about. Yeah. You know? Well, how was that game? Or what you know, I'd get to know their teams, and it just gave us a moment. Uh but I became very intentional about taking one minute at each one of those instead of doing what you're saying. Yeah, and sometimes it bothered me when other people did it. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 47:02

And sometimes that's what people you know, you see these people promote, and I I think our you know, the prison culture, depending on where you're at, it's just you know, I I want to be a sergeant, I want to promote, I want the authority or whatever, but they don't know what goes into it. And so you see these people promote and they don't want to talk to the staff. They want to, you know, do their job, which they what they think their job is. Well, to promote is to take care of your staff. Like, I mean that's that's your number one focus, is your subordinates. Yeah, it should be. And you know, uh same thing. There were times I would talk to people and I had no clue about what they were talking about. I had one officer, he was uh he was a gamer, and and I mean big gamer. And I I would sit there and talk to him for you know 10, 15, 20 minutes about gaming. I knew nothing about what he was talking about. Um I mean I played Xbox and PlayStation before, but it wasn't like I was at his level. Right. Um but he just wanted to talk about that, and so I would I would sit there and talk about it. And it it so not only do I need to talk about you know some of the things that they want to talk about, but also I have to remember. You know, I have to take the time to say, hey, I talked to this officer about X, Y, and Z last time, so when I go back to him in a week, if I pretend like I never knew that he was a gamer, it it I would lose all credibility, you know, and and which makes it really hard because I don't remember like I don't remember names at all. I have a hard time remembering what I had for dinner last night. So trying to remember, you know, just snip bits of what I talk to people about um so that you could build that relationship, you know, and it's not it's not, hey, I'm I'm gonna be best friends with you, um, which I I think happens a lot of times where we have that feeling like everyone inside is our friend. Um you know, my friends I keep separate from work. You know, I I had friends on the outside and then at work were my my co-workers, and I I kept that very separate. Um but you can have a personal relationship some with somebody and not be best friends with them, you know, and that and that was one thing I really tried to focus on. Um and I think it just made supervision of staff a lot cleaner when I wasn't best friends with a whole bunch of people in there.

SPEAKER_00 49:38

There has to be a little bit of a line there. There has to be because someday you may have to supervise. So let me uh tell me what Desert Waters is doing. What do you guys have coming up?

Normalizing Trauma And Dark Humor

SPEAKER_01 49:50

What's uh uh Well uh I mean without we we don't like to get in the specifics of where we're going. But um we I think this year uh each year we have kind of like a like last year it was like okay, this is the year of peer support. And it just happened like the first couple contracts we had, it was like they wanted peer support. Uh places building peer support teams. So we went out and we did a lot of peer support last year, taught a lot of corrections fatigue to fulfillment like we usually do. Uh, because that's kind of just the like I said, the bread and butter course. Um but then this year I I really think it's the year of the supervisor. Um and I I think the the role of the supervisor is being seen not only as instrumental in changing culture in building a wellness program, but what's what's going on nationwide is everyone is short staffed, right? So if I say hey Michael, I'm gonna train you to train your staff, okay, awesome. So you you get it and you turn around and you can't pull staff off the line because we're so short staffed that we're running, you know, night operations during the day, uh it does it's not beneficial, it's not hitting anybody. You know, and so how how do you reach out and get the impact? Well, the impact is if I can get the supervisors to buy into a wellness program, if I can get the supervisors to act like supervisors should be and care about their staff, then now I'm making a change. You know, and I'm my I'm not having to pull all my staff off for uh an eight-hour training. Now I can just rely on my supervisors to do what they're supposed to do and hopefully, you know, create some change.

SPEAKER_00 51:46

You know, one of the things I've been talking about in the last year, corrections is so short-staffed, and this is for supervisors out there. Get on Google, search a little bit on micro training or training bytes. You know, we've been trained for so long that you have to go put somebody through a four or an eight-hour training. You can sit down on the email once a week, send it out to all the staff on your shift, talk to them about something, and have them respond to you. Takes a few minutes out of your day. It doesn't take everything, but you're you're building that connection. They're still getting a little bit of training, you know. So I I think that's one thing supervisors can do, and they can do it with wellness. So no, absolutely. Um, so what's one thing that that you wish the public understood about corrections? What do you think they don't know about us that they need to know about us? And it can be wellness oriented, it could be uh trauma, you know.

SPEAKER_01 52:43

I I I think we're not bad people. Um I so many times like I'll go to the grocery store and strike up a conversation with, you know, somebody and they'd be like, Oh, what do you do? Or when I was in corrections, what do you do? And I'm like, Oh I work in Avena State Prison or wherever and they They'd be like, But but you're smiling. You know, and it's like if they knew what we saw on a daily basis, if they knew what we were going through, they might understand the reason why people are frowning. Uh why we might not be, you know, the jovial person um that you'd expect to see. Uh I I think that's the biggest thing is, you know, you you in the media, what do you see? You see where you know, you see the deaths, you see the um uses the force that weren't compliant, you see um, you know us running into a cell and beating somebody up, what you know, what they perceive as that. So to turn that around, you know, seeing the good side. Yeah. There there really are good staff out there. And unfortunately the media portrays, you know, I don't know the percentage, but I'll make one up. They sh they show one one percent of what what goes on if that. But there's some really, really good staff out there. There's some staff out there that are doing amazing things out in the community. Um you know, coaching, uh volunteering. Um I mean, I worked with uh deacons from churches and it was like yeah, there are times where I was like, wait, you're a deacon? Are you are you sure? Um you know, but but the overall I think perception of who we are is so jaded um compared to you know how what we're actually doing out there.

SPEAKER_00 54:46

When you look around, corrections is full of leaders. You do see them in the church, you see them running Bible study, you see them uh mighty might uh coaches and little league coaches, and you know, we're all over the place out there. Uh that's a that's a very good point. I like that. Um you know, you mentioned earlier that you have a book that you're working on. What can you tell me about that?

SPEAKER_01 55:09

Yeah, I I I didn't write it in crayons. That's the good thing. You know, I I always joke with my staff, don't write your report in crayons. Um I I came up with a book, and I've always wanted to write a book, and I never had uh inspiration for it. Um and I my book is uh covering leadership and wellness and and kind of having you know that middle management, first line, second line supervisor, um how to be a good supervisor and also keep your staff wellness in mind. Um it's called a well-worn badge, and uh it's going to be on desertwaters.com um in the near future. Um I'm putting the finishing touches on it. It's going through final editing right now, and then we're gonna get it on there. So if you'd if any of your listeners would like to see it, uh desertwaters.com. Um we have a couple other books there, but this one's like I said, it's the year of the supervisor. Um, you know, I I had mentioned that, and that's what we're my focus was in writing this. I I wrote it last year, but it it seems so much evident now that we need something uh for the supervisor. And you know, not just here's your stripes, go do your job, um, but how how to actually be a good supervisor.

SPEAKER_00 56:32

And so many of them are coming up, and they don't have that depth of experience. So anything that we can get them.

SPEAKER_01 56:40

I mean, I I'm right there. I I was three years when I promoted, and I was another three and a half years, four years before I promoted the lieutenant. I mean, I had I was under 30 when I promoted the lieutenant, just hit the test right. Um, and so I wasn't I didn't have that wealth of knowledge, and I learned as I went. And so a lot of the things that I write in the book aren't necessarily what I did, it's the lessons that I learned. Yeah. You know, I it do do as I say, not as I did, because uh I made my mistakes, and I was fortunate that my mistakes weren't, you know, to where I was getting fired or in trouble or anything, but um, and I I didn't get anyone hurt, which is was always my fear of uh one of my decisions would get one of my officers hurt. Um so I never had that, but I made my mistakes and and I own them. And going going into the book was really looking at the lessons that I learned um from supervision and kind of coming up with what the best practice is, what's gonna what's really gonna help um the leaders out there.

SPEAKER_00 57:47

So if someone wanted to get a hold of Desert Waters, talk to you guys about training, uh you have a web address and information.

Discovering Wellness And Culture Change

SPEAKER_01 57:54

Yes, www.desertwaters.com. Um it has all of our information on there. Uh if you want to reach out to us on email, you have questions, this is a really hard email address, Justin at desertwaters.com. Um you can you can email me and I will uh give that to the appropriate people who can answer the question if I can't. Um but uh yeah, I mean we're we're a small uh organization. There's three of us that are full time, and then we have some really great master instructors um that come from corrections, they speak our language, they they walk the line with all of us, and so um they when we go out and you know train, they come out and and and go out there with us. And so when questions come in, um you know, we'll find the right person to answer it. It's not you you won't get a canned response uh if you email us. It's it it's usually very heartfelt and we'll look at the problem and and give you an answer.

SPEAKER_00 59:01

Wonderful. I will put all those links in the show notes for anybody that wants them. Hey Justin, thank you for coming on the prison officer podcast today. I really appreciate it. And uh very interesting story. Uh I love your career and your process there. So thanks for what you guys do. Uh thank Katrina for all she's doing and uh letting me have you on here. And I hope you have a great day. Thank you, Michael, and it was great to be here. Excellent.