Pandering to America: Huey Lewis and James Brown List Cities

There's nothing a big stadium concert crowd loves more than hearing the name of their city shouted by their favorite rock star. In the 80's, a few performers figured out how to work the names of many U.S. cities into hit songs, in what can only be described as pandering to audiences hungry for recognition of their American hometowns.

In 1984, Huey Lewis and the News had a hit with "Heart of Rock & Roll," which worked 15 cities into a top-10 hit. In 1985, the Godfather of Soul James Brown made it to number four-- and scored a Grammy-- with  "Living in America," squeezing in nine mentions. The song is also well remembered for being a breakout hit from the movie "Rocky IV."

We break down both songs with our 21st-century lens.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Chit Chat & Recommendations
• 37:36 Introducing the Song
• 55:26 Introducing the Second Song

Transcript

[00:00:00] Margaret: How you been? 

Elizabeth: Oh my gosh. I, I was just thinking a lot has happened in the world since we started recording this podcast. 

Margaret: Oh my God. It is nuts.  

Elizabeth: So for example, the 

Margaret: seasons have changed a lot. Yeah. Right.  Which reminds me of that Expose song... Seasons Change.

Elizabeth: Change. Oh yeah. I would've never thought of that. Yeah. Well, I have some updates is now a good time to bring them they're related to some of the media we've discussed on this.

Margaret: This is the  portion of our show. So I think this is a perfect time for you to bring them up. Well, 

Elizabeth: I have some commentary on the cult. NXIVM. 

Margaret: And the 

Elizabeth: HBO a documentary about 

Margaret: it called The Vow. Yeah. Yeah. 

Elizabeth: I can't make as funny of jokes about the vow that there are on Twitter, because , I'm not a [00:01:00] comedian.

I didn't invent any of these jokes, but so I will trust listeners to go look them up. But the vow is bo-fucking-ring. I'm going to say it ultimately ends up a very boring documentary for Oh dear. A documentary about a sex cult. And I think it's because either there's a rush maybe to production to tell the story, because it seems so as salacious or lascivious, I don't know what the word I want 

Margaret: is both.

Yeah. 

Elizabeth: So I think there's been a rush to production in, so maybe not like a careful telling of the story and also maybe like an over-reliance on the inherent, super creepiness of the head of it. Whose name is Keith Ranieri? And that creepiness is. Not in question. But maybe they are over-relying on it a little bit.

So I don't know. And then also they just didn't know like what story they were going to be telling, because there's one actress named Sarah Edmondson. Who's kind [00:02:00] of come forward as like the main storyteller of this. Have you followed any of these stories at all? 

Margaret: Sort of in a tertiary way, is this the daughter of Catherine Oxenberg?

Elizabeth: No, but that's, that's India Oxenberg. And then, and the documentary does turn to her. Got it. 

But it 

starts off about Sarah Edmondson who has told the story of her being branded many, many times she was. She's one of the people who got, who was recruited into the sex cult and got branded. And she tells the story like a lot, lot, lot, lot, lot.

And but there's not really much more to the story. It would seem beyond that. And then they, but then it turns to Catherine Oxenberg and I will say Catherine Oxenberg for some reason gets the help of I would say maybe like a, kind of a sketchy P.I.Type of person who lives, where Niagara falls, New York.

[00:03:00] And it is not clear at all. Why Catherine Oxenberg sees in him, but she's talking to her mother, the princess of Yugoslavia on the phone. Like there's so many parts of this story that I feel like it could be. The bizarreness could be amplified a little bit and they don't even really bother 

Margaret: and no like side commentary on the fact that she is descended from royalty.

No, they just say it, say 

Elizabeth: that that she is and that's it. Yeah. Okay. And then she's like on the, she's trying to rescue her daughter, but then that story just kind of tapers off because either she wasn't rescued in time to wrap up the production or she was, and then she, she, the daughter didn't want to participate in it.

And also, I will say like some of the other main players are kind of, I mean, don't get me wrong. I still think they're victims, but they're kind of boobs too a little bit. The one guy. Wasn't 

Margaret: a cult before this call. Oh, Hey, joined this one too. And now all of a sudden in his resume and they were [00:04:00] like, have some cult experience.

That's what we're looking for in our membership. 

Elizabeth: And so   some of these people were adults. Who had educations and resources and were capable of making their own decisions. And it would seem they made it a super dumb decision. And I'm not a hundred percent clear that that is the same thing as like mind control and as with other 

Margaret: colors.

Okay. So you're saying this is like a, like a class B cult. Maybe, and maybe 

Elizabeth: that's the only kind of call we deserve. So  

Margaret: what do you think are the elements that made it  rise to interest ? 

Elizabeth: The fact that it included celebrities, minor 

Margaret: celebrities. Okay. Because the do think that it also is [00:05:00] because they did such a good job with branding it with a cool ciphering name that looked Roman.

Yes.  Okay. 

Elizabeth: And the sex 

Margaret: part? Yes. Okay. Got it. But  even with all these elements, you expected more from a sex cult documentary, I expected 

Elizabeth: a lot more from a sex cult documentary. 

Margaret: Okay, well, we're going to have to find you some different recommendations, cause I'm sure that there's one out there that would meet your needs.

Has all your rhythm on, on Netflix or wherever, like, or I guess this is an HBO. Have, have they come up  with some good? Like if you like this Nexium documentary, the vow you would also like, well, 

Elizabeth: I will say I very much enjoyed the. Cult documentary on Netflix called wild wild country. 

Margaret: Okay.

And 

Elizabeth: having seen that, and then having read about NXIVM in [00:06:00] the news made me real. I w I was like primed for a documentary about the sex cult, you know like I would be the exact person, you know, that square in the middle of their target audience, you know, 

Margaret: meaning what. 

Elizabeth: Because I read all the New York times coverage of NXIVM and because I enjoyed wild, wild country and other 

Margaret: Oh, cool.

As a viewer of the documentary, not as a member of the sex cult, correct? 

Elizabeth: Yes. Like I would be the hardest person to displease with a documentary about a sex cult. Okay, good. 

Margaret: Got it for a minute that you meant like for the collar, the ideal recruit. 

Elizabeth: No, for the viewership of the documentary 

Margaret: about it. Okay. Okay. Well, I'm sorry that they disappointed you. Maybe they'll try harder next time. Yeah. I 

Elizabeth: just want to say one other thing that the. Cult leader, Keith Ranier e one of the most hilarious and kind of [00:07:00] creepy things that he did was have midnight volleyball 

Margaret: games.

That's the crazy wacky thing that the dorky dorm in college did we have

for sure. It was so wild. 

Elizabeth: Yeah, he where he had long hair and he were pointing to telling a little sweat 

Margaret: band on, around 

Elizabeth: the ponytail and like knee pads and everything. And all the like cult members would show up and try to play 

Margaret: volleyball with them. Cause in this sex cult, we take joint safety very seriously.

We've got to make sure we have the proper safety attire for going to play midnight volleyball. And that means proper knee pads. 

. I've got one update for you, which I think is very interesting.

And it is in the, the file folder of famous Clevelanders. [00:08:00] Our hometown of Cleveland, Ohio. I discovered a new famous person from Cleveland that I. Beforehand did not know. I can't wait to find out who it is. And it's a pretty good one, I think. So we've talked about, you know, you're Trent Reznor, Chrissy hind, Tracy Chapman, some of these folks, Warren Zevon in a previous episode, but  I follow the NPR station from Cleveland.

On Twitter and they were tweeting in support of an event that happened this week with former Clevelander, David Wayne, he of MTBS the state and writing with. Michael show Walter and Michael Ian black. Yes. Ian 

Elizabeth: black 

Margaret: Mica Ian Beck. David Wayne is the one of the writers and director of my favorite movie wet hot American summer, which is about summer camp. [00:09:00]

But then they also had a show called Stella, , it was sketch comedy and he also created the. Way underrated. So what hot American summer has since become like a cult classic. But he also directed a really hilarious movie called they came together, which is a bunch of alums from what had American summer, including Paul Rudd and Amy Poehler who  I am a big fan of, and I have not mentioned this.

On our podcast yet we made it past 10 episodes. Before I tell the listeners that I went to college with her.

I know, I know. 

Elizabeth: I knew that I have other things that I think our podcast listeners deserve to know about you, but I got that in my back pocket. One of 

Margaret: them. So David Wayne. His father is a famous disc jockey.  This is like fifties and sixties. And then he was , in the radio [00:10:00] business as a producer and I think music director and things like that for a radio station in Cleveland.

And David Wayne grew up going to a cam, I think it was a Jewish day camp in Chardon, Ohio. Which you and I both know. Well, yes. And that it was partially those experiences that the huge ruin for the material and wet hot American summer, which is based  at a camp, so a summer camp. So I thought that was very fun.

It is so fun 

Elizabeth: and maybe we drove past his camp and didn't even know it. Although I guess he wouldn't have been going by the time we would be driving. Well, 

Margaret: I think he was long gone. I think he's our age or maybe a little, maybe like a year older. What was the name of the camp? 

Elizabeth: Do you didn't 

Margaret: find that out?

Did you? I did, but I didn't write it down. Maybe 

Elizabeth: basil could look it up for us and 

Margaret: report back. Or, or Bezos. So here's here is [00:11:00] an article in the news Herald where, which is a newspaper in Lake County that you and I both grew up reading.  He's a shaker Heights guy much like Molly, Shannon.

The news Herald doesn't want to let me read it. Yeah. 

Elizabeth: The news Herald can't afford to let you read it 

Margaret: camp wise. . I never heard of it, but yeah. You're not Jewish, but I'm Jewish and stardom. I went yeah. To pioneer camp out near there in Burton, which is right next to Chardin, which is about the most Ohio thing you could do in the summer.

Go to a camp and learn how to be a pioneer where we made we, we made homemade soap and we made homemade butter and we made homemade bread. And then we decorated covered wagons.

And while I was at Campbell and horrifying at the same time, it's very like specific and strange. Yeah. And [00:12:00] a reporter took a picture of me making a pinch pot at this, at this camp. And I was on the front page  of the news Herald. Oh, they should give you 

Elizabeth: lifetime access 

Margaret: for free then right in and tell them.

So his dad was radio personality, Norman Wayne. And he was on WDOK and WIXY. 1260, 

Elizabeth: you know just to interject, you're reminding me of another famous Clevelander that we haven't mentioned. Which is Paul Thomas Anderson. And the thing that you said that made me think of it was because his dad was a media, was a local media star also because his dad was Ghoulardi which was sort of before our time.

But nevertheless, I had certainly heard of him. And I felt like when Paul Thomas Anderson's. Film career was taking off. It was it, you know, we, we were reminded many times of his 

Margaret: provenance, many times. Yes. And he is now the partner of my Rudolph. [00:13:00] Right. That's my understanding. 

 This information caused me to. Unlike a joke that has long perplex to me about what hot American summer, because Amy Poehler and in his movie debut, a young Bradley Cooper they play sort of like the theater counselors at the. At the camp. Have you ever seen this movie? 

Elizabeth: If I ha I think I have, but not for a very long time, but every time I speak to you, I make a mental note of it.

Margaret: Yeah. Because every time I see you, I mentioned it. Yeah. 

Elizabeth: Or I just remember that. It's your favorite movie? And I feel like I could like feel a little bit closer to you if I watched it 

Margaret: again. Yes, you could. Amy Poehler makes a joke in it and she says, You guys, this isn't the Cleveland Playhouse. 

 It's because David wait. Yes, right? Yeah. That might've been a 

Elizabeth: line he heard at his camp even 

Margaret: like a direct [00:14:00] importation. You guys, this isn't the Cleveland Playhouse. This is chard and Ohio. Okay. Let's act like it. Get in your covered wagon and make some maple syrup, candy. Dammit. 

 Elizabeth:  I just watched the state, you know, when the whole quarantine happened, I. Just went ahead and watched it again just a couple of months ago.

What's it streaming on special? I don't totally understand it, but you know, Amazon has like a bunch of stuff, channels. Yeah. Amazon prime that you have to subscribe to. They're sort of thematic like and we did a horror one around Halloween where we watched a horror movie based on zoom, which was which was very fun.

I don't even like horror movies, but it was very clever. It was called host.  But this was a comedy station that I subscribed to. And I think it also might, it, I can't remember if it's like older comedy shows, like it had, maybe it had that. And what was the David Cross [00:15:00] and what's his name 

Margaret: Mr. Show? Bob 

Odenkirk?

Elizabeth: Yeah, 

it might've had that. You know what I mean? Like Nineties sketch shows might've had those, although it also might've had other state-related material, including Reno 911, which I loved when it was on. That was some folks from the state Thomas Lennon and  Robert, Ben, Garrett. I don't know how you say his last name and Carrie Kenny.

Anyway. Yes. So we rewatched the state, Ken Marino love Ken Marino a lot. I'd love every single thing. All of those people have ever done that I've seen agreed, including , have you seen the burning 

Margaret: love? No, but you have told me about it and I feel like it's in my queue to watch funny. 

Elizabeth: I don't know where you would find it, but Michael Ian black is the host.

I believe of at least one of them. They're so goddamn funny. They're just, 

Margaret: he's one of the [00:16:00] best parts of wet hot American summer, in my opinion, the storyline with him and Joe Trulio. I think that's how you say his name. Yeah. It's funny. Okay. I promise to watch burning love if you promise to watch what hot American summer, which is, that is a deal, a shorter investment of time.

It's only, you know, 90 minutes or something like that and has rockin. Music. Where can I watch 

Elizabeth: it? Do you know? I'll find it. You don't have 

Margaret: to know you don't have Netflix. It sounded okay. Because that's where they put the, the second series that came out a couple of years ago. 

Elizabeth: Well, as well as burning love, I would give you a choice between burning love and party down.

You haven't seen party 

Margaret: down here. I have seen, I think, half of the series of party down and it's fun. Yeah. And it includes Adam Scott, which he makes everything even better. If it's possible. And 

Elizabeth: Megan, Mullally almost said McGinn mill 

Margaret: Lailey. That's probably what  Nick Offerman calls her when [00:17:00] she's maybe.

Yeah. McGuinn 

Elizabeth: McGuinn well, yeah, I think that shows and the, and the whole Ken Marino character there is extremely enjoyable with his, he, his name is Ron Donald, and he's a boss and he has a list of Ron, Donald 

Margaret: dues and Ron, Donald don'ts. It's so 

Elizabeth: funny. He was calling people, Ken Marino on Twitter. He was saying like, let me know if you want a phone call, like in April.

Tired. 

Margaret: I tried to call me. Yeah, we're doing everything we can to work our way into this friend circle. Right. And we will get good at dammit.

Elizabeth: I have other updates unrelated to any of these people 

Margaret: laid on me.

Elizabeth: Okay. John, as you may recall, from a past episode that I reported that the first karate kid movie is without flaw and I maintain that  to this day. However, karate kid, too. A bit flawed. So I just want re listeners [00:18:00] to who really rely on us for a solid information to know that their karate kid journey will not be totally.

Margaret: Okay.  What are your issues with the second one? 

Elizabeth: It's a little less, it's a little more contrived. The first one seems very, 

I know this is just a mistake to say it about a Hollywood production, but it just feels a little bit more authentic. Like the second one. Danny LaRusso goes to Japan with Mr.

Miyaki, which is right. And everyone's just as charming and adorable and all that kind of stuff, but right from the beginning, you're like,  so the very premise itself, I think, and I feel like they tried to follow the exact precise. Story rhythm of the first one, instead of like making a new story, which I think was a mistake.

And that is not a mistake that they made with Cobra, Kai, the [00:19:00] TV show update because they like kind of invented it a little bit more and took some liberties. And that was what I think was called 

Margaret: for well, yeah, they tried to follow a formula like the winning formula from 

Elizabeth: the first one. Exactly. Right. , but I have additional karate kid updates.

And one is that it turns out that maybe in the first karate kid, the F there is maybe a storyline flaw because. Danny lovers. So it may not have had enough points to win the tournament at 

Margaret: the end of the movie. Yes. I've heard this criticism. 

Elizabeth: So yeah, I just want once again, our listeners to be aware.

Okay. 

Margaret: So it's, it's as close to perfect as any of the movie we can think except for the math problem. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's only a problem. Really, if you are like, An astrophysicist. And other than that, I don't know that the rest [00:20:00] of us need to concern ourselves with math too much. 

Elizabeth: Yeah, it's also maybe only concern if you're a total jerk and your heart was not utterly warmed by the whole rest of the movie and like where you're like moved to tears.

And so you're such a jerk that instead of like crying and rooting for Danny, you're counting, you're like, 

Margaret: wait a second. 

Elizabeth: Yeah, but that is not our listeners. Our listeners are not like that. \ But I just want you to 

Margaret: acknowledge that. And along with the Cobra, 

Elizabeth: Kai karate kid is overall having a moment because the evil sensei of the original Cobra, Kai is in commercials.

Have you seen this? 

Margaret: What are they commercials for? 

Elizabeth: Well, it's funny. You should ask that because I don't even know. I it's like that phenomenon where you see commercials and you remember the commercial, but you don't know what it's for because they, as he 

kind 

Margaret: of did. Yeah. Is he playing himself for his character?

Ish. Yeah. Sorta like a [00:21:00] bad guy with his arms crossed. 

Elizabeth: Yes. And he's wearing a karate outfit and I got to say the guy's in shape. He's like in his seventies or something. And he's like, yeah, Still has Leon Plaza sensei 

Margaret: totally do. And what he's got going for him is that he's so commanding and authoritative that you want to do what he says.

So if he's like buy these Doritos, you're like, yes. Sentence. Yes 

Elizabeth: sensei. Yes. But he's also a little bit, obviously making fun of his character in that, which makes it that much more charming. Good. Good. Yeah, 

Margaret: you should at this point. 

Elizabeth: Like in fact, I've heard of a lot of. There's one that I'm not remembering, but the one I am remembering is the country of Kazakhstan with upon the occasion of the second Borat movie has decided to be in on the joke. So the first Borat movie caused some international relations snafus cause people were offended about the portrayals of Kazakhstan and so forth.

[00:22:00] This time around, which is something like 14 years later or something or something like that. Kazakhstan has now adopted their tourism slogan from Borat and the Kazakhstan tourism slogan now is "Very Nice" 

Margaret: and they spell 

Elizabeth: it normally. But of course, everyone would want to say a very nice, but, 

Margaret: but that's their, you know, they have like a.

Beautiful blue sky and 

Elizabeth: mountains. And it says Kazakhstan. Very 

Margaret: nice. I love it. I know. It's great. Yeah. 

Elizabeth: So it's 

Margaret: beneficial to be in on the joke. Oh, I love it. Well, they know they, they know what they're doing and they are going with the flow. Maybe people in Kazakhstan would enjoy our podcast because that seems to be our theme.

Just go with it. Yeah. Just go with it. Yeah. Maybe I'll work on some targeted marketing [00:23:00] over there.  Yeah.  

Elizabeth: Maybe that's our audience. Sure. They love a Western culture. Right. And what if you lived in Kazakhstan? Why wouldn't you want to go visit Ohio or Buffalo? Right. 

Why wouldn't you want to go?

I can't think of any reason why you wouldn't 

Margaret: me either have it all right, right here in the, in the middle of the country. Yeah. Of the middle of the country, but yeah, 

Elizabeth: and a little, a little East of it too, but I would probably counsel visitors from Kazakhstan to avoid certain things. Just to try to put the best foot forward, 

Margaret: you know, in America or in like Ohio and Western New York in Buffalo, 

Elizabeth: Buffalonians have really terrible pizza that they are like maniacally attached to.

 And if any Buffalonian listens to this I'm we [00:24:00] might get some hate mail, 

Margaret: but. 

Elizabeth: One of the features of Buffalonian pizza, which is so disgusting is these little cups of pepperoni that become like little grease cups , cause they curl up when you cook them. And then the edges of them become blackened.

And then they're like little cups of grease and I'd like a black end. I don't mind the char, 

Margaret: but sorry, you're saying you don't like this. They don't like the curled cupped pepperoni, correct? Oh, I rather like that. Well, so  to like stay flat, the idea is like, get a bigger pepperoni slice. Perhaps 

Elizabeth: that I, I can tell you, I just read about the shortage of this special kind of pepperoni which I think they called the cup and char, I believe it's called cup and char pepperoni.

And [00:25:00] there's a bit of a show. I don't know if it is in the cut only But I'll just give you a clue that the shortage is because no one else wants this kind of pepperoni.

Margaret: And 

Elizabeth: so they're not producing it. No one wants it.  There's I guess maybe a slowdown in overall pizza demand. Buffalo pizza places are having a hard time getting this. I know there's a lot of the only part I totally get is that no one else wants 

Margaret: it. Yeah. But. There's a slowdown in demand seems crazy.

Like there's a pandemic isn't eating. Yeah. Yeah, 

Elizabeth: yeah. That's I don't 

Margaret: know jive for me, but I guess I can understand,  if you look at worldwide pork markets, that might be the root of the issue. I don't know enough about this anymore, but like [00:26:00] maybe there's something there. Maybe there's a, there, there, as we like to say in corporate America and the, my favorite corporate America isms, maybe there's a, there, there, 

Elizabeth: wow.

You know, that's the title of a really great novel that I didn't think I was going to have the opportunity to recommend, but it's called there, there, and it's by Tommy orange. 

Margaret: But wait, is that how they, this person means it. Or do they mean they're they're like comforting? No, 

Elizabeth: it says there's a, there, there I do believe they mean to play on Tommy orange perhaps means to play on it a little bit, like in the comforting way, but for sure the intention is is there, there, there, 

Margaret: It's the dumbest thing a person could say, I think, and I play the mental bingo, you know, of the dumb things that people say to sound cool.

And  part of the corporate club. And there's it, there, there is one of those that I think is like bonus points. [00:27:00] What 

Elizabeth: are some other ones? Like, let's just circle back. Does anyone say let's circle back? 

Margaret: Yeah. All the time, but I mean, that's an obvious one. There's I have a list of them somewhere. I write them down when people talk, 

Elizabeth: I think our listeners deserve 

Margaret: to know, Oh, listen up.

I'll work on that for next time. I'll bring a little list. Yeah. People don't want to hear me rifle through the papers, but I'll have basil work on it for next time. 

 I just want to Mark 

Elizabeth: though that our listeners should be clamoring at the little hint, I job that there are things they deserve to know about you. And so I'm hoping that down the line, we're able to cover that.

Margaret: Okay. Maybe we'll do a specialty episode. About each in our house. Yeah. 

Yeah, that's great. I will look forward to hearing your creative ideas on that, and I'll also be slightly worried about them. We now give me a corporate 

Elizabeth: speech. . Yeah, 

Margaret: no, you should circle [00:28:00] back on that.

And more to come. Is another one that people say more to come. 

Elizabeth: Oh yeah. Or do they say it is what it is? 

Margaret: Yeah. People say that everywhere though. Oh, okay. It's like a thing, I guess I'm on board with that one. I like, I like it is what it is. It's, you know, kind of circular, it's like a snake eating its tail.

And yet it has so much meaning 

Elizabeth: but sort of radical acceptance type of thing. 

Margaret: Yes, exactly.  My dad's favorite book is the road less traveled by M Scott Peck. Hm. And the first sentence is something to the effect of life is difficult.

And once you accept that, it gets much easier, which is about, that seems true. 

Elizabeth: Yeah, it seems just true. I feel like also I wish my child understood that. 

Margaret: Well, well, it might be one of those things that actually believing it to be true is the thing [00:29:00] that indicates maturity because when you're a kid and you've got some world Rose colored glasses, if the adults in your life are doing their job well and not failing completely cause everybody doesn't have this childhood experience You don't know that life is hard.

You think it's all Christmas and right. You know, it's just various holidays where candy is given to you. And then you have to endure the bits in the middle punctuated by candy holidays. 

Elizabeth:  I do feel like I know some adults who, whose age number would indicate they should know better, you know, that like they seem surprised about things that they shouldn't be surprised about 

Margaret: or, 

Elizabeth: Victims of their own choices somehow, you know?

Margaret: Yes. When the thing that they don't realize is that happiness is a choice, right?  It's not something given to [00:30:00] you.  And then you fill your head with positivity and thoughts of resilience. And when things get hard, you say, it's not always going to feel this way.

Tomorrow will be better. You it's a mindset 

Elizabeth: or else you think like the world is like fucked and it's in a toilet all the time. And so the only choice I have is to have fun and be happy in 

Margaret: it, you know? Sure. 

Elizabeth: That's more, my that's more my attitude. 

Margaret: Sure, sure.  They share a little bit of the same footing, but are tipping face forward in your version?

I mean, and both are probably true a little, depending on the day. 

Elizabeth: Right. Yeah. I just want to share a very Buffalo thing that happened to me when a stranger I was in the locker room. Cause I swim, which under pandemic conditions is actually extremely pleasant because you get everything to yourself. But anyway, there was a person in the locker room.

She's I don't know. Retiree age, maybe [00:31:00] 70. And we found out that we had to hustle because the gym was closing and she started complaining to me about how she had to go bowling later. And it was, and I was like, 

Margaret: lady, don't go. But like, Either don't go bowling. Wait, also what time was it? Oh, it was on a Saturday at noon.

I know the gym was closing, but it closes early, but she, yeah, so 

Elizabeth: it was just so first of all, Buffalonians, aren't avid bowlers, you know, cause it's an indoor sport. Sure. And, but also they are. Fulfillers of obligations, you know, like they, they follow tradition on questioningly 

Margaret: and maybe don't realize that they have choices within those traditions.

Elizabeth: So she could have, for example, chosen not to ball 

Margaret: if she hated it. So goddamn much. Or like looked at herself and said, maybe I chose to bowl because I [00:32:00] actually quite like it. And so, but, but instead it was like this burdensome thing that she had to do, 

Elizabeth: or, or 

Margaret: that was also like her way of making conversation with a stranger, by the way.

Right. You know, she assumed that you'd be on the same page as her. And be like, I know, right. If I had a dollar for every time, I was forced to go. Exactly. I know I 

Elizabeth: have to eat nachos later. God solidarity, man. 

Margaret: But also 

Elizabeth: Buffalonians, like to speak to strangers a lot. And I think that they're like mode of engagement is 

Margaret: complaining.

Oh. So they're  friendly, but also  resentful. Totally.. 

Elizabeth: A Clevelander I feel is very similar, a Cleveland character, so it's familiar to me. And I 

think 

Margaret: they have their charms. Yeah, they do. Have we [00:33:00] ever talked about, I'm sure I've mentioned this song to you, but you know, the performer, Dar Williams has a song called Southern California wants to be Western New York.

Elizabeth: That is so funny.  

Margaret: My spouse is from Southern California. I feel like this song is like ready-made for him. And you should check it out. And it's real. I think you would like, it paints lots of fun pictures of Western New York and also a little bit of Southern California, but I feel like this is a missing verse from that song.

And I think you should write it about God Buffalonians and their you know, constant need to there's. There is some, you know, it's like scratches an itch. There's some comfort and complaining about your obligations that I relate to, which makes me think maybe it's more of a great lakes thing then. Oh my gosh.

Elizabeth: Sure. 

Margaret: Yeah. Or even larger than that, [00:34:00] perhaps more of a Midwestern thing. Right. You know, to, to be, 

Elizabeth: we should ask David 

Wain, we should  get David Wain on here and see if he has a similar feeling about Northeast Ohio growing up. Then 

Margaret: if it's a gray, it should be number one on our list of questions for him.

Elizabeth: The California, my experience of California via my spouse is that they are thusly. They're unburdened. They're unburdened by those obligations and feelings of tradition.

Yeah, it's amazing. 

. And the grinding. You know the sense of like grinding guilt and obligation and you know, 

Margaret: like 

Elizabeth: no choice, like California is all about choice and inventing yourself. 

Margaret: Hmm. That's such a Western idea.

Like go West young man, and you can totally want, and, you know, rename yourself something else. And [00:35:00] totally, yeah. I like that idea. Maybe I'll start coming up with some new names for myself. Yeah. Yeah. You could 

Elizabeth: invent a religion for yourself. Also Evian when it's 79 degrees and sunny, 100% of the time, like you don't even have to think about the clothes you need to wear every day.

Let alone. 

Margaret: Just shorts and a t-shirt and some flip-flops and get out there, kid, go get yourself an ice coffee and live your life, hiking sailing all the time. You know this talk about you know, all the places we're naming and the different personalities of them and, and kind of like hopping all over the country.

As we're talking about this kind of segues nicely into the topic I wanted to bring to you today, let's talk 

Elizabeth: about it right after this break. 

What sound do you have for us today? 

Margaret:  I have a collection of songs around a theme with a little bit more [00:36:00] focused on one in particular.

But I wanted to talk a little bit about songs that pander to America by listing cities in the country. I've edited employee magazines for a long time at the different companies that I've worked for.

And the one thing that people like more than anything is seeing pictures of themselves or of people that they know. And. But this is like a universal, I don't know what it is. It's like, who is the Greek? God that saw himself in the Narcissus. Yeah, Roberto, it's just, we like. Here we like reflections of ourself and we have strong identity to the places that we are from, or you know, places that we like that we've decided we have affinity for.

And there are a couple of songs from the eighties that really exploit this in a very [00:37:00] ridiculous and obvious way. So 

Elizabeth: like the songs are basically like versions of your magazine, somebody flipping through and being like, Hey, that's 

Margaret: me. Exactly. And I would say they're also kind of on this idea of, you know, the song route 66, which is just a big listing of town, young man, 

Elizabeth: San Bernardino.

Margaret: That's the one. So in 1984, Huey Lewis and the news. Wrote a song called heart of rock and roll. And in it, they just list a whole bunch of cities and talk about rock and roll and why it's so great. And then they just say a bunch of cities. And I remember hearing this song in and I had a ton, an album called sports.

Hmm, their third album and as one of their best sellers they had a bunch of singles. Now you may know a lot of people know who we loosen the news cause they sang [00:38:00] the theme song from back to the future called the power of them. Love very 

Elizabeth: familiar with the film as well as the song 

Margaret: Probably a film that's about as close to perfect as it can, as it gets, that might be true. They capitalized really on this sports album with a whole bunch of these songs, but then they would tour, right? Like that's how artists make a lot of money, even more so than from their albums. And when you are doing a live show, You love to address the audience.

This is like the old trope of like good evening Detroit! Or Hello Topeka! Or whatever I have to say. Cleveland 

Elizabeth: is usually the joke and the city and that 

Margaret: joke completely. And I just watched almost famous last night and there's a whole bit about Cleveland. They see Bowie at the hotel in Cleveland. But they in this song,   well, let's listen to it real [00:39:00] quick. So they they're listing all the different cities, DC, San Antonio, the Liberty town, Boston, Baton Rouge, all 

Elizabeth: where the heart of rock and roll 

Margaret: is beating, correct? Yes. And then what do they rhyme with beaten?

In Cleveland and Beatin' do not ryhme. Well. They, they do, if you are , Hugh Anthony Craig, the third AKA Huey Lewis, because he rhymed. Cleveland was beaten and and it worked for him. And I remember driving down the road, hearing this song on the radio and feeling like at turns, Oh my God, he knows we exist, which was thrilling to me.

But so there, I remember feeling pandered to like, [00:40:00] why do you have to stay on. But everybody else's town is also mentioned in this thing. So it makes it a little less special than I feel like you're just now listing. Hmm. Like less special. Could you just write a song about Cleveland? That would really be something, but no, you've got to throw in San Antonio too.

Like, I don't know, take seriously.  Other people had the same reaction to this song.  Blender magazine, which is a music magazine in 2009, did a list called the 50 worst songs ever. And it's sixth on the list. So does that 

Elizabeth: mean it's the sixth worst song or the 44th worst 

Margaret: song?

It's it's five from the top five, five away from the worst song. What is the worst song you knew you were gonna ask me that and I know the answer to it and the best thing about it. I have to 

Elizabeth: guess. Okay. What's the best 

Margaret: thing about it? That it [00:41:00] does the same thing. As hard of rock and roll it's, it's very much terrible for the, some of the same reasons.

Elizabeth: So it's not Armageddon it 

Margaret: by Def Leppard. No. And I will fight you on that. Why do you hate that song so much? It's a good song. So I have to talk about Def leopard in a whole nother episode because you and I have very different feelings about as a bank, I have some 

Elizabeth: Def Leppard 

Margaret: love. I know pour some sugar on me cause you're the one who said, have you heard this new song called pour some sugar on me?

It's amazing. And I said to you in 1987. Yeah. And I was like, I had that song. I need to hear that song. Wow. Oh gosh. 

Elizabeth: I'm so honored, but okay. Wait. So the song at work, we got to get back to this war song. So it panders you're saying 

Margaret: yes, it panders. And 

Elizabeth: are you sure I've heard it? Like, it's a, it's a well 

Margaret: known song.

Oh yes. [00:42:00] And it's a Pabo it's like a pop. Yeah. 

Elizabeth: On the, when was it on the radio? In the eighties. In the 

Margaret: eighties? Yeah. Oh, my God  has been around was around for decades. Right. Was like the third decade that they had a hidden hole. Holy moly. 60 seventies and eighties. Yeah. 

Elizabeth: So what band could that be? Fleetwood Mac, the grateful dead.

The Beatles or some members of the Beatles, the rolling stones. Oh, it was a rolling stone song. Not a 

Margaret: rolling stones song. No. These are great guesses. 

Elizabeth: But they would be probably like a classic rock type of band. 

Margaret: Ooh, the Eagles Sydney. Eagleson no good. These are great guesses, but no, I'll give you a hint.

This band changed their name three times.

 Elizabeth: Why did they change their name? Oh, I'm okay. It's killing me. I can't guess anymore. Our listeners deserve to know [00:43:00] it is what? Wait, what was their original name? What was the original name of the band? Yeah. That's okay. 

Margaret: That'll reveal it. It'll be part of the reveal. Jefferson airplane. 

Elizabeth: Oh, so it's that?

We built 

Margaret: the city. Yes. We built this city on rock and roll by star ship. Because remember they were Jefferson airplane, then they were Jefferson Starship and then they were just star ship. I do remember it became more space-related yeah. More increasingly. So, and this blender article I'll link to it. It's so funny.

They say the worst moment in the song is the line who cares. They're always changing corporation names. Says that, 

Elizabeth: right. This is Marconi played the Mamba 

Margaret: that's that song got into the radio, don't you? And they do the same thing that They use some snippets of like a DJ and the Bay [00:44:00] city area. He's talking about a beautiful day   by the Bay, beautiful day in my city.

Because they're also from San Francisco, much like Huey Lewis and the news. But th the blender magazine in their writeup of. Huey Lewis and the news heart of rock and roll really hit the nail on the head and I can't do better than what they say. So I'm going to quote it. The, the author says less a song than a Craven attempt to Curry favor from drunken arena crowds trained to Rora on cue when they hear their city's name mentioned.

And that is precisely the thing that I hate about it. It's just like you threw these city names in this song so that people would lose their minds when you go to their city and play it. Except if they're playing 

Elizabeth: in San Antonio, they're still singing the song and saying all these other. Names city names.

And [00:45:00] so are the crowds in San Antonio, just cheering when they hear their cityname. And then they just have to patiently sit through the other city names 

Margaret: or, but you know, that they sing along, but then they scream the name of their city when that part comes on. Yeah. So. I mean, I guess we'd have to look into it and see how they, what the treatment was when the band played it.

But you can bet that because Cleveland, so punctuates the song , and this verse which at the time,  this was. When people were remembering that Cleveland is actually where the term was, the term rock and roll was coined and they put the rock roll hall of fame there. This, this petitioning was all going on at the time.

 I think it's a great, like, there are things about this song that I really like, but one of the things besides this very pandering approach that they've taken, that I also am kind of bothered by because I feel like it's so obvious and on the nose is the bass drum [00:46:00] does this heartbeat thing.

When they're talking about the heart of rock and roll, it goes. Nope. Nope. Don't don't don't and it's like, okay, I get it. It's a heartbeat. Boom. 

Elizabeth: Oh my gosh. I have so many thoughts in my head. And first of all, I want to just ask what year the song came out. Do you have that? 

Margaret: Yeah. I mean, the album came out in September of 1983, but this peaked at number five in may of 1984.

Elizabeth: Because also I'm thinking about the hands across America, I'm sure you know, where people were sort of discussing how or had on their mind, like how we're linked and then wanted to like physically enact that basically. But also you're reminding me of the Chevy ad campaign, which was the heartbeat of America, which I think was introduced in the eighties.

Yeah. So, and obviously that was like a time when the American automotive [00:47:00] industry was. The, the heartbeat of America was on life support. And so how, what kind of like given the actual conditions, what a, like desperate attempt to some of these things were to like, keep people spirited 

Margaret: and yeah.

That's patriotism. It's like, so down your throat and yes. Look, look. Fully bought into all of it. And I love my country. Most of the time. I know you were a child and yeah, I was a kid, but I do remember feeling like a little bit of a, I just, it felt so in your face. And I guess that's what the eighties was, but I really feel like it was  a very forward sales job from a lot of these bands and And even more.

So the next song I was going to tell you about. Yes. 

Elizabeth: Well 

Margaret: but if you're having an additional thought on this, you should give it to me before I move [00:48:00] on. 

Elizabeth: My additional thought is that I believe places like Cleveland or Buffalo, like to be pandered to even more than places like San Antonio, because they are,  for decades have perceived themselves as underdogs and down on their luck.

And so really,  really love when they receive any kind of like national recognition. And so I'm sure the people in San Antonio were clapping and singing extra loud when that song played. But I don't think it was the feeling was as intense as the people in Cleveland. Well, yeah, 

Margaret: We got really teed up in that song.

Put on a shelf. Right at the bridge there. Yeah. Yeah. 

Elizabeth: And I will say like one exhibit from Buffalo recently was  an HBO show whose title is escaping me now, but a character was holding a beer bottle from a Buffalo brewery [00:49:00] in a scene that lasted maybe 90 seconds. Yeah. And there were two 

Margaret: news stories about it.

Was it? What, which Buffalo was it? 

Elizabeth: I 

Margaret: don't really remember Jenny Genesee cream ale. No, no. It was like a craft brewer. Okay. Got it. I guess Jenny is Rochester or someplace and it's 

Elizabeth: Rochester. Yeah. It's a different story. A different river, different accent all together. Yes, I think it is. Yes, because Rochester is where , it goes from the Northeastern vowel pronunciation to the great lakes, vowel shift to like the, the change happens in Rochester.

And so there's  certain specifics about the Rochester XM, but anyway, the point being  I feel like every, and also every time any celebrity dies, they try to find like the 10 minutes they spent in Buffalo and like make [00:50:00] a big deal and make them a Buffalonian. They did it with Aretha Franklin.

Margaret: They did it with Sammy Hagar. Wait, wait, I mean, mean Eddie van Halen, Eddie van Halen. Got it. Got it. Breaking news, listeners. 

Elizabeth: Listeners, please forgive my, please. Forgive me. I do mean Eddie van Halen. Oh my gosh. That was a Cardinal sin. Anyway, the point being that all these cities that feel like they get disrespected, you know, like love it when they even more like San Antonio is like, whatever dude.

We're awesome. Yeah. So of course you're saying our name, but like Cleveland would say, did you hear it? He started our name that needs we're awesome. After all 

Margaret: and your favor, right? Yes. And I, and I get it and I feel like we need the love a little bit more than. You know, I think Philadelphia knows it's awesome.

Okay. They've got Rocky. There's a statue. Like it was the founding of the country. Like everybody knows [00:51:00] Philly is great, but you don't hear people talking about Cleveland or Buffalo that often. And so it's extra exciting when they do. And when they're talking about the fact that it's good and not making jokes about how you're hot in Cleveland or whatever.

Yeah. Or you're heading, which 

Elizabeth: is when they're making jokes about how ugly everyone is

Margaret: it here? I'm here by choice. I will say , One additional funny thing about this song, the heart of rock and roll is, and Huey Lewis. I love you. Lewis. I saw them in concert at the Richfield Coliseum. At some point after this album, I don't remember which album, but they were, I mean, they are a hardworking band, so I I'm all on board and I love that album.

It's great. One of my favorite jokes was on the TV show up all night, which practically no one watched, but my Rudolph, I totally did. I totally loved it. [00:52:00] Totally hilarious. Will are not. Yes. Well I was wearing a Huey Lewis and the news t-shirt and his, his spouse, Christina Applegate accused him of wearing it non ironically.

And he was like, I love them. They're amazing. And I was like, the show is just like written for me.  There's a joke about it in American psycho, whereabouts Bateman about yes. He says the album, he, the main character and American psycho is the characters name is Patrick Bateman.

And he says that this album, the sports album. Is when he considers the band to have really come into their own commercially and artistically.  

Elizabeth: I do remember learning some trivia that I can't remember now.

What Elvis Costello's first album was. It was the one where he lost to the Starland vocal band for best new, but the, his band, the attractions. Yeah. [00:53:00] For that album are the news, like it's the same musicians. Yes. If not a hundred percent, you know, 80% or something like that. I mean, so it's just like, like you're saying like hardworking, talented musicians, you know, who what's so great when there's a job that needs to be done and like pop music, you know?

And I think Huey Lewis was in on jokes because he also was a actor in a Robert Altman movie that I'm forgetting the title now.

And everyone was like, Hey Lewis. And I think he was nude and even like full frontal. And I think we saw Huey Lewis as well. I'm going 

Margaret: to have to look this up. It's called like. Slices or singles or snippets or yes, exactly. Lives moments, something like that. I can't remember what it's called, but tons of people are in it.

I remember watching this exactly 

Elizabeth: right. 

Margaret: Yes. Every Robert Altman movie that we've just described, but I think I know the one you're talking about, 

Elizabeth: right. It's I think it's called Huey Lewis has Dick.

[00:54:00] Margaret: Yeah. Who could forget it? The movie. Rated R

You know, the other song I was going to mention in this in this episode is another kind of pandering song, but I think intentionally, so perhaps because of the way it was used is the song. Living in America by James Brown, which  came out in 1985. So after, after Huey Lewis did it and while lots of people pandered lots of people pander, the Huey Lewis stuff, living in America, won a Grammy. Yes. And boy, is there a lot to say now? One thing I would tell you is that Mr. Brown did not write this song. Hmm. It is composed [00:55:00] by two guys named Dan Hartman and Charlie midnight. Have you ever heard of either one of them? Well, Dan Hartman is a pretty interesting dude in his own.

Right. And Charlie midnight, first of all, he's got a fantastic name, but he's also written like a million things. Like he wrote the score for the bodyguard, the Whitney Houston movie, just like millions of TV shows and movies. Dan Hartman  had a hit himself in the eighties. Called I can dream about you, which was also not number six in 1984.

Yeah. That's the one. He he was the singer of it also. Yeah. He wrote it and he sang it. He actually wrote it for a movie. He sort of started out like as a commercial songwriter. So he wrote commercials, including like for Gilette in the early eighties. But then. Filmmakers would ask him to write songs for their.

Movies. And he wrote, I can [00:56:00] dream about you for this movie called streets of fire. And in the movie it's performed by a fictional vocal group. But then for the soundtrack album, he swapped his own voice. And, and so that's the song that became a hit and became a breakthrough song for him. And in the movie.

He plays like a bartender in a bar and there's a TV on, in the bar and it's playing clips of the band and the movie singing the song. Another little fun, eighties tidbit. Is it  in the video? The video Vixen, the girl, the love interest in the video is played by an actress named Joyce Heiser, who was in that movie.

Just one of the guys where she plays a dude or a woman who dresses as a man, too. I don't remember why. I can't remember the plot. 

Elizabeth: One of the many movies. Cause it wasn't that also Linda Hunt and the year of living dangerously. I think that was the name of the movie [00:57:00] about like an Indonesian journalist.

I, Linda Hunt's won best act tress, I guess, but she played a man. 

Margaret: Did she? I don't know. I don't think I've ever seen that. One of the guys has, Barry has almost nothing to do with any plot like that. It is the most. I see. Okay. Yeah. It was like a high school. You know, like to indicate to the person that she's been fooling, she opens her shirt and shows her breasts off.

And he's like, what? And, but wasn't there also 

Elizabeth: a Barbara Streisand movie like that too 

Margaret: Yentl. Does she dress as a boy? Doesn't shoot bind. Is 

Elizabeth: there like a yes or like a breast 

Margaret: reveal? Yes. 

Elizabeth: Yeah. Okay. I'm just saying, I 

Margaret: guess that's the thing. Yeah. Anyway, Dan Hartman, this little sweet angel, he's got the sweetest face.

He died in 1994 of [00:58:00] HIV AIDS. It was a closeted gun but a child pro musical prodigy in his youth. And Oh, he also wrote free ride by the Edgar winter group and take a fee, right. I don't think I ever knew that it was Edgar winter. Who saying that me there for a long time, but let's get back to James Brown.

Oh my gosh.

The song entered the billboard top 40 January 11th, 1986. It reached number four on the billboard hot 100. It was also a big top five hit in the United Kingdom, which is interesting for a song called living in America. 

Elizabeth: Yeah. Oh my God. Totally. 

Margaret: It was go ahead. I wasn't at the 

Elizabeth: Rocky four 

Margaret: song also.

Yes, it was written in. Written for Rocky IV and prominently featured in that film. So, you know, that that film , the plot of it [00:59:00] is that Apollo creed played by Carl Weathers. Thank you. He , proudly enters the ring. Remember his whole thing is like he's super patriotic, very American.

Where's the,  Red white and blue boxing shorts. So he enters the ring to fight against the Russian boxer, Ivan Drago, and spoiler alert, Drago kills Apollo creed in the ring. But Brown James Brown sings the song that's played during this ring entrance. And so, so hence the point, right?

Like. Apollo Creed's whole thing was like hyper patriotism. That was his kind of shtick as a fighter. And the video for this also intercuts  footage from the movie plus concert footage of James Brown, performing it, plus just random pastiche of American images. So trucks [01:00:00] on the highway and farmland, rolling farmland and cities and people punching in and the New York stock exchange and just the most, you know, diverse little clip of everything.

So American , and it also features  all of these random listing of cities. And that's part of the song is he's just singing the names of cities. So let's listen to a little clip of it.

So, you know, it's a catchy  it's got a big horn. Section, they were supplied by this group called the uptown  horns. Here's a little fun fact about them. They're the New York section that backed J Geils band on their freeze frame album. And they're also the horn section in Love Shack by  the B52s, which is fun.

So there'll be your, 

Elizabeth: they're your basic horn professionals. 

Margaret: Yes. They're who [01:01:00] you call when you need a horn section in the eighties. Yeah. I'm also playing on the track. Obviously James Brown is doing lead vocals. Stevie Ray Vaughn plays lead guitar, which is so, so interesting. Weird Al, Yankovic recorded a parody called living with a hernia.

And the line in the song got to have a celebration. He says, got to have an operation weird Al an 

Elizabeth: American 

Margaret: treasure. Isn't he though? Do you know much about James Brown? Well only 

Elizabeth: for a while, it's only one what the rest of the world kind of knew and you know, that he had some personal troubles, maybe not, you know, the greatest kindest person in the world.

And He was, I feel like he was a [01:02:00] tabloid figure for our childhood a lot. And, and of course I knew the nickname, the hardest working man in show business. He also has doesn't he have a bit in, he does. He's the preacher and the blues brothers. Yes. In the scene in the church when they have their country.

Yep. And that's one of my favorite all time movies. And so I, so I knew him from that. Certainly. Yeah. But a listener. One of our fans sent an article along that I read. There's a, it's a series of articles, I guess I only read the first one and it filled in a lot of detail. That kind of explained some of the ways that he was in the news so much.

So I guess he seems like one of the figures where like there's rumors and And it's kind of a, like where there's smoke, there's fire type of situation. Like everybody just said these rumors, but like really, if the rumors are floating out, then there's something like really, really, really bad [01:03:00] happening, like with Harvey Weinstein, same, you know, or yes.

Michael Jackson people made the same. So I don't know. It's so I learned more from that, that explained the fire that produced the smoke that we got in the eighties and 

Margaret: nineties about him completely. And he This song is really like one of those things that I think introduced our generation to him, because it was kind of his, like a comeback record for him.

He recorded 17 singles that went to number one on the billboard RNB charts. And he holds the record for the most singles listed on that. Billboard hot 100. That didn't reach number one. Oh my God. Then interesting record to hold, but he had lots of hits.  But. You know, not many in the eighties except for this one.

So his hits 

Elizabeth: were in the sixties or 

Margaret: sixties and seventies, seventies, and funk and soul. [01:04:00] And they an R and B and they helped earn him some of his, his nickname. So people call him the godfather of soul or Mr. Dynamite or soul brother, number one , and he was. Yes, totally hardest working man in show business because he toured and he toured and he toured and he toured, and he had a very elaborate stage presence, lots of sparkly costumes.

You'll see lots of people who used to work for him talking about what a stickler he was for the costumes. And they ha they had to be like, just right, and lots of theatricality in his performances and things like that. But what I knew about him was I think he had some trouble with the IRS.

I think there was like some domestic violence charges. And beyond that, I didn't really remember much, but in looking into it for this episode, boy, did this guy have yeah. [01:05:00] A long answer. Like there is story to tell here, and I'm just going to scratch the surface. But several turns in prison including when he was 16.

 He was born in the thirties and South Carolina. His mother was just 16 when she had him. , his mother left the family because her marriage was abusive. And then he, his family then settled at one of his aunt's brothels. W what a, what a childhood. And so he stayed in school till sixth grade, and then at 16, he was convicted of robbery and sent to a juvenile detention center in Georgia.

And he did three years in prison as a teenager for theft. And then he was arrested in 1978 for theft in and then 1988. Wow. What a year for this guy? Arrested in 1988 for assault? This isn't 

Elizabeth: no, no, that, that, no. So he's arrested. [01:06:00] I also gather his childhood, which sounds tumultuous was also quite violent.

Margaret: I think so. But 

Elizabeth: so you said you gave us like childhood and teens 

Margaret: and then he became famous. So famous. And then 

Elizabeth: in the eighties now starts getting arrested 

Margaret: again, more trouble in the eighties. So it really in, in the seventies. So he was known in, prison in his teens for being just a fantastic singer.

And then he was like a gospel singer for a while. And then, you know, he hit a big in the sixties and then carried it into the seventies when he was sort of at the peak of his fame. And then really what happened is Drugs is what happened. So that was really, I think, at the root of his issues in, in the eighties drug and weapons 

Elizabeth: and not just any drugs, but PCP.

I understand of all the drugs. I mean, I am somebody who understands the idea of a functional addict, you know, and [01:07:00] cocaine or heroin addiction is , I feel like I hear stories of people living  fairly productive lives with addictions too, or even Booz for that matter.

Right. But PC. He sounds like a different order with hallucinations and violence and 

Margaret: delusions and things like that. Yeah, I agree. It seems like an occasional sort of, not something that you use for a long time, but from all accounts, it does sound like , this was . The issue that caused him the most trouble and led to lots of, or seemingly led to lots of of these charges, including like a high speed chase on the freeway.

And then there are lots of other charges, sexual harassment, domestic violence assault. Interestingly there's also quite a bit on his . Wikipedia page about his politics, which are very, 

Elizabeth: I want to hear about them, [01:08:00] but I just want to quickly say listeners do not get me wrong. I'm not saying cocaine or heroin.

Addictions are good, less I, the opioid epidemic in the U S. Is very present to me. I re you know, so I don't think that 

Margaret: I think is the point you're make guests. Right? You hear about that more? I have never heard of somebody having an angel dust addiction, 

Elizabeth: and I know, I feel like I saw a lot of. Very dramatically violent videos about rats and mice on angel dust as kids in the seventies and eighties.

Margaret: So there were all those stories of like people jumping out windows on things. So 

Elizabeth: it was like a biker gang thing too. I feel like, yes, 

Margaret: because it's a violent behavior. Yes. Yeah, I mean, not that the other drugs don't, I mean, I don't know. What do I know about any of these? I've never done any of them, but so his political beliefs kind of all over the place.

He, [01:09:00]  supported Hubert Humphrey in 1968. Who's a Democrat and he then was labeled an uncle Tom for that. So he, he got lots of criticism from pro black activists. And because he was sort of. He wrote a song, a pro-American funk song called America is my home. And he kind of was critical of protesters of the Vietnam war.

And then he started supporting Richard Nixon. Which in retrospect seems nuts, but I guess people did. And but then, but then he backed out of 

Elizabeth: it and they didn't have the knowledge that we have now of Richard Nixon. Right. Right. It's still seems a little nuts even though 

Margaret: without that knowledge, but I mean, for, for an entertainer anyway, I mean sure.

But again, I wasn't really alive then, so. My knowledge of it really comes from the TV show, family ties. So what do I know about Richard Nixon? 

Elizabeth: Really? But you also read a little bit of 

Margaret: history. Sure. Yes, I guess. And I saw that Oliver [01:10:00] stone movie. So anyway, it just interesting, he he did do lots of performances then later for  the troops overseas and things like that.

So  it seems like he came back to your more traditional entertainment position on such matters. But  so he died on Christmas day in 2006, he's married four times has lots of children. And , that story that you're talking about I read the whole thing. It's a very long  With tons of supporting evidence and little video clips and pictures and little snippets of notes and notebook notes, and eight goes, it is a bonkers story, but it essentially fleshes out this idea.

And I will tell you if you go to the Wikipedia page, which is a good place to start for stuff like this, but.  You've got to do more research than just one source because there's one line in the Wikipedia page about some people believe that his death  was not due [01:11:00] to age or pneumonia , which is what the, the coroner's report says.

Some people believe he was murdered. And so if you read this story in CNN, that's essentially what it's about. And it also talks about the fact that the person who kind of alleged the story also says that Brown had his ex wife killed. And it just, it, my God, it's like a big conspiracy theory wrapped up in so many different places and it's.

Nuts. And it's more, it is the salacious that, that Nexium documentary did not deliver to you. I encourage you to make it through it. It is. Yeah. The intense and intensive.

  Anyway, re read more about it. It's interesting, but there's also a piece published recently here in November of 2020 by a professor  at the university of Louisville.

So, this is the [01:12:00] theme of this podcast, right? Is like take things from the eighties and then look at them through a current critical lens. And this,  this professor, his name is Randy Whetstone Jr. He's a clinical assistant professor in the college of education and human development at the university of Louisville.

And he wrote this really interesting story about. Loving the movie, Rocky four and watching it again. And then, you know, seeing Apollo creed come into the song by James Brown, which is about living in America and romanticizes the idea of America and You know, they rhyme nation with celebration. That's a real rhyme.

Yes. In Cleveland and beaten our 

Elizabeth: Armageddon. It, 

Margaret: yeah, there's a lot that are kind of a reach. But his point and it is if you look up who wrote the song as Dan Hartman and Charlie midnight. So two white [01:13:00] men wrote this song. Charlie midnight was a white guy. Yeah.  And James Brown is singing it and Apollo creed is walking into it.

And Apollo creed gets killed by the white boxer and in the movie. And  that, the idea of living in America, it's like so positive. But you know, Then you've got the godfather of soul singing it and you you're asking people to relate to it through this, but is this the experience that black people are having, in America today, it's like  this song that is really about  anything can happen and we got to celebrate it, but that's not the experience that black people have experienced here.

In this nation and still today. And that really puts an interesting modern take on it when you consider the songwriters and, and the usage and things like that. Right.  And the part of that CNN piece, that's so interesting if you continue with it, is that the, [01:14:00] the third piece of it is really about his accountant and his lawyer.

Using James Brown and kind of keeping him plied with drugs to take his money. 

Elizabeth: This lawyer, Dallas, I think was his last name like Bobby Dallas, buddy Dallas. That St that 

Margaret: lawyer. Yeah.  But, but the point was they were using.

They're they're applying them with drugs. They were then also the accountant was keeping him living in fear because he had fear of the government from his experiences with the IRS and God from being incarcerated several times. And he basically just did what they told him and he was practically illiterate.

I mean, he only made it through sixth grade, so he did not have strong reading skills or reading comprehension skills and All of that is, you know, also very interesting, but he would, he knew how to do was entertain. But, but it took a toll on him. [01:15:00] And you know, ultimately he passed of pneumonia and heart diseases is what.

That's what the record says now it says 

Elizabeth: now. Yeah. Yeah.  I feel like a little surprised that, I mean, I'm glad that story came out and I'm looking forward to reading the rest of it. I just feel like. We should all have known all of it all along in a weird way. You know, it just, he was just taken to be this kind of, by the time the eighties came around and we were kids and young adults until the nineties, it was, he was just like a.

Kind of a joke, tabloid type figure, you know? Huh. 

Margaret: And I think that some of that is because of this sort of like Vegasy style he had, it was like lots of ways, stones and careful. And you know, just this feeling of like when you're young, you want young thing, you want the new thing, you don't want the thing.

You know, the performer has been around for 40 years that your [01:16:00] parents like your, if you want the new Fleetwood Mac album, right. Or the new, you know, that hip new Cher single, 

Elizabeth: right. I have some things to say about Rocky four. I don't It's a little bit of a joke in our house because my aforementioned spouse is a Rocky fan and I can't keep track of all the Rockies, like, 

Margaret: wait.

Yeah. That's surprising to me that he's a fan. Yeah. 

Elizabeth: I mean, because he's a frigging gen X dude, you know, and that they were fed to him as things to like as a kid, you know, and the first Rocky might be what the karate kid might be. One of 

those 

Margaret: perfect movies. Okay. Sure. I mean, I think a lot of isn't it on one, like in the top 10 of AFS, top 100 movies or something, maybe it's considered to be a masterpiece.

Yeah. Yeah. 

Elizabeth: So I don't know. So we joke about and I don't know how many Rocky movies are, but there's like regular [01:17:00] Rocky there's Mr. T Rocky. There's a Russian Rocky there's. You know, like all the different Rockies, Rocky four, I guess, as the Russian Rocky. And that's the one that we just saw, I just saw the last 10 minutes of which so after Apollo Creed getting killed.

And so it was really just like the big finale  of Rocky versus Drago or whatever his name was. Yeah. And it was just very. Well, I like, I guess, just to extend the metaphor, cause you were thinking of the movie as like a bit of a metaphor for how black Americans were treated and. It's funny that it ends with somebody from Philly saving the United States 

Margaret: reputation.

Cause that's getting a box. 

Elizabeth: Right. But I just watching it. I thought, God, I totally remember being in the eighties when that was, the enemy was. You know, the USSR and we were all sort of supposed to be [01:18:00] United against this enemy and how we just haven't had anything like that since the fall of the Soviet union, you know?

I mean, yeah, 

Margaret: now that Kazakhstan is our friend and we're all considering going there for a vacation because it's very nice cause it's 

Elizabeth: Veron. Yes. And so, you know, we had. The tele ban. And I guess I said, you know, but then people read that like racially instead of politically, and there's not been any like big like them.

And so therefore maybe there's not any us, , to form in the negative space around it. And there's all this stuff about like America divided everyone, all the journalists, like to have that as the story that they're telling. And it's probably true. I mean, people have like personal family anecdotal evidence about that, but.

Maybe that's because there isn't like a big fat Soviet union out there that we could all agree, right. 

[01:19:00] Margaret: Us to get out guys and bind us together and share hatred of, yeah. And I mean, I guess they 

Elizabeth: were aiming nuclear weapons at us. And so that was. 

Margaret: Pretty 

Elizabeth: scary time.  It just, that just seems like that was the, you know, the story of the 20th century was us versus them and then the disillusion of them basically.

And so then where does that leave us? 

Margaret:  But 

Elizabeth: it's really good. And then the Rocky wins the match, spoiler alert, and then he makes a little speech about how he should all live in peace and 

Margaret: harmony.

And it's so adorable that 

Elizabeth: that was like, thought to be the thing at the time, and the Russians are kind of like, 

Margaret: Maybe he has a point and, , and you think like, well maybe 

Elizabeth: boxing will 

Margaret: save the world. Yeah, exactly. This is why Gorbachev then adopted the Glasnost. And there was a great opening and yeah, it was because of this movie is this the one that Brigitte Nielsen is in as well?

[01:20:00] Totally. Because I 

Elizabeth: think she's the place like the white girlfriend of the drag. Oh yeah. Oh 

Margaret: yeah. Great. Love her 

Elizabeth: for sure. 

Margaret: And 

Elizabeth: they do, I think the credits roll over living in America. 

Margaret: How could they not? Yeah.  And the video Apollo. Creed's got his, uncle Sam, top hat on and the Cape and his boxing trunks. And he's like dancing on the stage with James Brown and he's like, you know, jamming to living in America. Yeah. Well once, 

Elizabeth: let me just do a little separate shout out to Carl weathers who was on arrested development and had like an extremely funny role there.

And also now has been in some episodes of the Mandalorian and Totally. 

Margaret: It's incredible. Can we also give a shout out? Speaking of arrested development to Joni Anthony Russo, our fellow, the blender 

Elizabeth: blenders. Oh my God. Don't even. Yes, we can. 

Margaret: Hi. Hi Joanna. And [01:21:00] have I I'm sure. I've told you that they went to my grade school.

They went to safety. I feel like this 

Elizabeth: season, the need to know about Margaret. Yes, 

Margaret: you did. You, were they older than you? Yeah, but only by like two or three years. Yeah. And their younger sister was my younger sister's really good friend in grade school, 

Elizabeth: so I see. Yeah. So do you recall on arrested development?

There's a newscaster who's regularly featured? 

Margaret: Yes, but who it is. 

Elizabeth: W well his name is John Beard and he was a newscaster in Southern California, which is why he's featured in arrested development. Got it. Which by the way, just to bring it back to the CA places, character there's for a little while I was making a joke about arrested development, being like a documentary expos a about Southern California, not a fictional because is just as weird as that, but in any case, so John Beard.

Then moved to Buffalo, New York [01:22:00] and became a newscaster here and has since retired, but he lives around the block from us right now. Have you made friends with 

Margaret: him? Totally. 

Elizabeth: So he walks his dog past our house all the time. , and this is . A newscaster that Chad remembers from 

Margaret: childhood mindblowing. It totally 

Elizabeth: is.

And so one time finally, Chad got, well, first of all, we used to constantly, 

Margaret: like if we saw him outside, 

Elizabeth: we'd be like John beats out front John Beard. 

Margaret: And like, and we'd all freak out. 

Elizabeth: Finally, Chad got the nerve to go up to him and be like John Beard. Like I watched you 

Margaret: as a kid and then I loved you on arrested development.

And now. Your dog is so cute. 

Elizabeth: And he 

Margaret: was so happy and pleased to be noticed. 

Elizabeth: And now we regularly wave hello and he stopped and said he liked our black lives matter sign on our front 

Margaret: yard. And he 

Elizabeth: and I follow him on Twitter and he regularly posts. Really lovable things. And so 

Margaret: we love him and [01:23:00] he's our neighbor.

It's so fun. It's so fun. John Beard, I'm happy for him that he has found a home in Buffalo. I wonder what he thinks of cup and char pepperoni. 

Elizabeth: I would love Nope. I don't think, I don't know why he moved here in his career. I guess I don't know how the job market works 

Margaret: for media market. 

Elizabeth: I guess that's it.

Yeah. So I don't know that he's from here, but I would like to ask him about cup and char pepperoni. That is a good question. 

Margaret: I feel like I need some now for dinner, so I'm going to have to go Google that and figure out how to simulate it here in my middle of Ohio kitchen. If you 

Elizabeth: wanted the, to create the true Buffalo pizza experience, what you would do is you would add about.

I don't know, a quarter cup of sugar to the sauce. 

Margaret: Oh, real 

Elizabeth: sweet. And then a real, real thick and doughy crust. That's not [01:24:00] totally cooked. So it's got, it's a little bit glowy, you know, where it's real thick, then you get that sugary sauce on, and then you get your little grease cups on there. And that 

Margaret: is Buffalo.

That's going to tip you right over into the diabetes. You've been courting and skirting in the last nine months.  or maybe just me, maybe it's just me. Sounds delicious. Yeah. If you're looking to tip 

Elizabeth: the tip that scale, then this is stuff. That's the food for you. 

Margaret: Thank you for your recommendation. Totally.

Sorry. I was going to Buffalo for Thanksgiving, which I used to do for most of my life, but I'm not doing this year for obvious pandemic reasons. I would stop by someplace and get a slice. 

Elizabeth: Yeah, well, we get them every year on Christmas Eve. So yeah, those were some really good songs. And I love talking about the character of places because [01:25:00] I I'm sure it's one of my least likable personality traits, but I like feeling inquisitive about different.

Areas characters and making a little bit fun of 

Margaret: them. You know, then this is the episode for you. And I think you can go listen to all these songs on our Spotify channel, where I always list the songs we talk about. If you feel like you need to listen to the entire, we built this city by put it there for you to talk 

Elizabeth: more about that because they left grace slick and white rabbits.

So far behind, you know, I think Grayslake was not involved. Oh, Jefferson airplane. 

Margaret: No, she sings. We built the city. She's on that, Angie. Yeah. And she also sings on a, what was the other big hit they had from the movie mannequin?

 Elizabeth: nothing's gonna stop us 

Margaret: now. Nothing's gonna stop us now. That's grace slick singing on that song. [01:26:00] Now you can, you can take a trip in your mind any time by listening to the songs. And just, you know, cheer loud when you hear the name of the city that you like, and it's just like being there. Yeah, 

Elizabeth: totally. Yeah. Totally gonna do 

Margaret: that. Yeah. So I invite you to travel in your mind through music.

Yeah. And I'm glad you enjoyed it 

Elizabeth: very much so.  I will talk to you next time. I look forward to it!