The Worlds Okayest Pastor

Building A Mature, United Church In A Divided World

• Jason Cline

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What if the most loving church isn’t the one that keeps you comfortable, but the one that calls you to grow up? We take that question straight into Ephesians 4 and uncover how Paul moves from soaring doctrine to gritty daily practice, showing why a real gospel culture requires humility, unity, and words that build rather than break.

We start by naming the tension: church is hard because people are imperfect and preferences clash. Then we anchor the conversation in the story of Ephesus—an influential city shaped by power and idols—where Paul planted deep roots and wrote with a pastor’s heart. From there we trace the arc of Ephesians: identity in Christ first, then a new way of life. That shift reframes everything. Unity stops being a vague ideal and becomes a practical choice. Maturity stops being a cliché and becomes the steady refusal to chase trends, gossip, and outrage.

Together we walk through the commands that give a church its shape: put off the old self, tell the truth, don’t let anger rot your heart, do honest work so you can share, and speak only what helps. We talk about accountability and church discipline as acts of love that protect people and restore trust. And we push back on the thin mantra “do what makes you happy,” trading it for a richer invitation—do what makes you holy. Along the way, we share a vision for a serving church: Scripture-centered, Spirit-led, visible in the community, welcoming to strugglers, celebrating baptisms, and committed to forming kids and students who follow Jesus with courage.

If you’re hungry for a church that stretches you toward Christlikeness—and a community that helps you die to selfishness and live for a bigger mission—this conversation is for you. Listen, share it with a friend, and tell us one place you feel called to grow. If it resonates, subscribe, leave a review, and help more people find the show.

SPEAKER_01:

I realize from the number of glasses, but last week was more but like a legend like loaded bomb on Sledgehammer. We have to build it then. I won't do it. We have to put it out. Like I love it, right? And that's that's what the word of God changes the way we view ourselves, which is changing the way we do the program. But there's this idea that comes uh scripture that is supposed to be transforming. And sometimes to transform, you gotta tear down some old ideas, some old ideology, right? And so what we're looking at is we're looking at the church as a whole, and we talked about this, but here's the paragraph is here, because paragraph is that the book of Hebrews is basically called trying to help this Jewish nation that has followed all of these rules and all of these regulations for the longest time, just they kind of transform the way they think and realize Jesus was the least of these. Right? So he's dealing with a culture that's really ingrained and doing righteous things. But Paul's saying outside of righteous people. Because we don't have to fulfill the 600 um, we talked about yesterday in 613, somewhere between 613 and 633 different thoughts. So Paul's addressing the church in Hebrews and saying, listen, you have to understand the way you thought things were, the way things are now, which is different. Paul's example. I was I I persecuted. I I killed, I I oversaw the killing of Christians in the house. Paul, a man of the Christian. I was a Pharisee among the Pharisees. I did all the right things on the libration that Jesus shifted. And so that's what the Word of God is supposed to do. So last week we talked about the importance of making church a priority. Being together with Hinton, when I say church, I'm not talking about a building. I think I can clarify that. I'm talking about a gathering of regular believers. The Bible calls us to meet together regularly. Acts chapter 2, verses 42 through 48 sums up the early church pretty well. So they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching of the fellows, so the breaking of bread and prayer, and everyone was filled with awe and the many wonders and signs performed by the apostles. All the believers were together and had everything in common. The sold property was actually to give anyone who had need, and every day they continued to meet together in the temple books. They broke bread in their homes, and they ate together with glad and sincere hearts, praising God in the faith of the people. So this is an important understanding for us, and again, I talked about last week. Coming together regularly with other believers is a necessity. It has to happen. In this context, they were the only ones they had. All they had was each other. They were living under Roman oppression, they were still battling some of the Pharisees of the laws. So they had to come together. They met in the home, they prayed together, they spent this time together. This was necessary for the church to continue to move forward. So again, if we call ourselves believers, and we call ourselves followers of Jesus, and we choose not to participate in the church, other believers, we're not truly following. He established, he created, he intends for it to continue. He says that the gates of Hades will not overcome. Understand our first part of the getting together. This is why church is so hard. Because we all don't like each other. Right? We don't always like the people we're sitting at. We don't always like the people that walk into our church. We have different political views. We have different views on how to spend money, how to spend our time. That's the complicated part of it. We don't all see eye to eye. Spend one day on Facebook and you'll find that. That's where the church struggles the most, is because we are not perfect. So the church, in its very nature, is difficult. Because you and I have the Lord to seek Jesus alongside people who might lack not even doing like that. That's where the challenge of the church comes in well. If the church you are part of always makes you feel comfortable, you should go ahead and it should challenge being alongside other believers who have different beliefs and different ideas, uh, culturally otherwise, should should it should feel you should always feel this. I added in Pastor Tom Wells, and I love it, that his goal was to make his youth group comfortably on. Just enough to come back. But at the end of the day, we left thinking. Because the word of God should challenge us, right? And so here we have Paul writing a church or writing a letter to the church in Ephesus. We're gonna be in Ephesians chapter 4 today, but we're gonna talk a little bit about this church. So the the city of Ephesus, or the church that we know is Ephesus, is located at modern-day Berlin. The Roman Empire made the city of Ephesus, a provincial capital, had about 250,000 residents. At the time, it was the third largest city in the Roman Empire. So Paul is writing to a church that has significant impact, but also a significant amount of people. By the way, it's like 250,000 people in the city. I think all of volunteers is less than 10. Could be wrong, though. But just imagine it makes sort of all the people who live here, and you multiply that again and again. This becomes important. This city was not only a large city, but it had a false god located at the heart of it. The heart of the city, so the temple of Artemis is considered one of the seven wonders of the ancient world. From the ocean ports to the theater to the stadium to the library, Ephesus had so much to offer its inhabitants and its visitors, and Ephesus is a major, a major cultural center of the ancient world. The church of Ephesus came into existence between 15 and 20 years after the death of peace. Paul visited the city on a secondary mission, uh, missionary journey, which we find in Acts 18. Uh, he founded the church in Ephesus, and then he put uh Priscilla and Aquila in charge of the church. And then later a man named Apollos, and then eventually uh Timothy, become kind of an overseer of this church. So Paul had a lot, a lot to do with this church. He spent a lot of time with it. Uh, and one of his missionary parents spent three years at the church in Ephesus. This is the longest Paul stayed anywhere for any amount of time. So he cared about his church. He personally established it, he always set up the leadership of it, and Acts chapter 22 had his final debauch of his imprisonment of getting ready on the end. He has a break of passion. So in the same when he writes this letter to the Ephesians, this is not just a one-stop shop. This is a man needed cares and his passion about the people, if he's right. It mattered. So chapters one through three set up what we call doctrine. Chapters 1, uh, verses 1 through 14 talks about the split spiritual blessing of the coming. Uh following Jesus. Chapters 1, uh, 15 through 23. It's Paul's prayer specifically for the Ephesians. Uh chapters 2, 1 through verses 1 through 10, Paul talks about grace and salvation. Verses 11 through 22 establishes unity with Christ and the importance of it. And then chapter 3 talks about the mystery that was being revealed as the gospel unfolds and the Gentiles become errors of the same gospel that was with the Jews. And so chapters 4 through 6, it's all focused on practical difference. So Paul establishes and said, listen, understand this, God loves you. God chose to die through you. Unity is important. The mystery of the gospel is now being revealed to you. And it gets to chapter 4. He says, now this is how you and I are supposed to live. And when I say you and I, I mean you and I. Again, he's writing this for the church. Just like us, a gatherer. This is what it says. Ephesians chapter 4, starting with verse 5. As a president for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of following the others. Be completely humble and gentle, be patient, brilliant with one another in love. Make every effort to be unity of the spirit, the bond and peace. There is one body, one spirit. One Lord, one faith, of action. One God, Father of all, who is overall, through all. But to each of us, grace has been given ascribes the portion. It took many deaths. What does he ascend in mean except that the altar descend was lower earthly regions? He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, or the whole universe. So Christ himself gave the apostles, the rockets, the evangelists, the pastors, the teachers, to encourage us for words of service. The body of Christ may be filled up. Until we reach, uh until we all reach unity in the faith, and the value of the Son of God of the church, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. And there will no longer be endants, lost back and forth by the way, belonging here and there, by every wind of teaching. But in practice, the people who see the scheme. And each parts of teachers. Paul says as the church gathers, you and I are supposed to be mature. We're supposed to not only be maturing, but we're supposed to be united. What makes the church hard is there's a lot of immature people in church. There's a lot of people in churches who like to cause disunity. By the way, something that causes disunity, I would consider a salt who's immature. Because that's that's not what scripture teaches. And so that's as we participate, we should be striving to conserve in unity. Again, what makes the church hard is we all come into this place with an idea, what we want. How we like it, the right temperature, the right music. I'd like. This is hard. We can't spend money on this, we have to spend money on that. We all come into the church with this idea of what we want. But mature. This is the realization that we speak something. Maturity and unity. Yeah. That that's what makes again, that's what makes it so hard. Because a lot of people come in the churches, when they're challenged to grow up, they don't want. They would rather sit and complain and talk about the person next to them and how they don't like this or that, then actually look and reflect and say, listen, I have to work on me. And I'm telling you this, as someone who does, I constantly have to be looking and turning, even when I preach, because I I'm not gonna sit here and act like I'm like the most mature person in the world. I'm not I I still have a lot of growth. I have learned so many things with the blood. But but I am constantly self-reflecting. And we should be is this what I want, or is this what God? Is this a thing worth worth dying on, or is it not worth causing decisions? Like this is the point. And as we come together as believers, we should be looking and promoting the regional edification of each other. We should be building each other up, lifting each other higher, pushing each other closer and closer to Jesus. That that's what makes this work. Because if you can't do that here, you definitely can't do it out there. That's what makes this church so beautiful and so difficult because I love all of you. But sometimes I just want to trip somewhere. Sometimes people call me and I'm like again, that's a growing bit of our end. But we should be constantly speaking for me to address so it's not just about together, but it's to gather together and describe the Jesus. We learn the love of Jesus in the church works. We learn to mature our faith in the church folks. Us being around other people is necessary for our faith. Think about mine. I'm good gym much as I used to. But I used to go to the fall time when I looked with. I always found myself comparing myself to other people. And I was just a guy saying, man, I wish I was as strong and saying more. But but I remember like the going to the gym was important because I it gave me something to strive towards, but also remind me of where I came from. Right? That that's important. So that's part of growth. We have to know where we're heading. The goal is to be like Jesus, but we also have to remember that we're not the same person we were 10 years ago. And and we in the body of believers, we see that. We see people grow. We see people which are very Jesse. I know Jesse. Jesse is right, I'm gonna talk about it. Listen, I remember Jesse when he was 14 years old. I was this student bastard, and I loved him. He was crazy. Olivia, you are welcome. You know, that's and all seriously done. I've seen him go when he was a young man who was trying to figure out his life. But just now leaving brothers on with all Jesus. You only get to see that when you write. You only get to see that when you show up. I've had the privilege of watching and growing. That's the point. A healthy church should push up your church. Being connected to the body is necessary. Tim Stafford, uh, he writes this in Christianity, uh, his article started in church by Boblin. He said, Paul allows no vague representation of the church, as the son of all Christians. The body analogy presses Paul's, the strength is available on earth as a tangible point. His various gifts come in human patterns. To be in Christ, we cannot stand off distance from this body. We absolutely must serve other Christians, parts of his body, in a continuous relationship, body part detached from other parts, nearly useless, dead. Cannot experience Christ. We offer perilous advice when we nurse to the find Christ anywhere or in the local church. Can you imagine Paul arriving in a city, finding a local congregation, not in his days, and simply choose to say the book? For Paul, a Christian without a church, this is unthinkable human being with no relevancy. A person is poor when this king, they cannot leave them. They are his own flesh and blood. So it is with the church, and furthermore, uh they are Jesus' flesh and blood. People need people, God's people need God's people in order to know God. Life and price and the poor effective. All God's promises were made, the God of people. All the New Testament epistles address Christians, uh Christians and churches. The Bible simply does not know of the existence of an individual, isolated Christian. This is why church is important. Because again, you and I need each other. Mutual edification. Now, it doesn't mean that we don't have difficult challenges, it doesn't mean that we don't hold each other accountable. We had a conversation Thursday about this. We talked about church discipline. The moment you mention church discipline, everyone loses their mind. But church discipline is necessary for accountability. If we see people living ungodly lives, by the way, I'm talking about other believers. This is not your passage that God and bash people don't know Jesus on the best. They haven't quite figured that out. But if we see other believers in the church not living the way they should be, you and I are called to speak truth and death. Ephesians 115. We are supposed to hold each other accountable, encourage each other to grow and maturity, and the only way to mature is by God's live. We need other people spurring us along, challenging us to make a different, figure, more focus, to challenge the way we live, the way the way we have. To make sure that we understand that we are not supposed to do this alone. Across another Disney movie. I played Fake's first new program and it did Beauty and the Beast on stage. First time I had ever seen. Fantastic, but did anyone watch the movie? Because I feel like I had some. But but it's an interesting thing because part of the problem with this story is we come across the beast. He's isolated. He's seen as a moss. He he secludes himself from people. Now granted, there's a bunch of popping furniture. Yeah, a little bit. But but he lives in this castle. He's isolated. And he's he thinks that he's protecting himself in the world, and the world feels like they're protecting themselves. And then he kidnaps Belle, and oh I'm not kidnapped by the way. But he kidnaps her.

SPEAKER_02:

She earns the lover. She learns the bow. Eventually Bell just follows a bit judgment.

SPEAKER_01:

And that's such a bulk of the talk about his story. And even she has a little bit of redemption. She's beyond one act, right? But but we see this redemption that happens. But but really, if you follow the process, the finality, the importance of him not being alone, that's what changed. It wasn't a perfect voice, but by any means. And and he called the first scene credible. But but it happened in community. Even the if you watch the the end of it on the all the little brigands meeting. I know they're about furniture. I know they're ordered things. But they all like turn back and go back within all themselves, and then we all wonder for the crack and thought it disappeared and all that stuff. But but we learned that because there's something about having a strong community. Because even in his isolation, he still has things, he had people. But it was when he had himself to see things with to change the way it's all over the world. I don't think it's true to some function. We we are supposed to do those plays. Yes. I I I mind sure of other people challenging other people pushing me on. Paul finishes and beginning to burst out, being to notice and understanding you wrong, understanding your both maturity, and then he continues in the chapter, verse 17. It says, So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live that the Gentiles do. The futility of their faith, they are darkness in their understanding, and separate the light of God, the them. The pardon of the hearts. Having lost all sensitivity, they've given themselves under sensuality, supposed to indulge in every kind of impurity, their full drink. That, however, is not the light, the few of God. When you heard about Christ and atonement in accordance with the truth of Jesus, you were taught as regarding your final way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by being new in the added to the mind, and put on the new self in the light of God, the true righteousness, the function. Therefore, each of you must put off balsad and speak truthfully to your neighbor, who we're all members of one body. In your anger, do not sin. Do not let the sun go down while you're still angry. Do not give the devil. Anyone who has been stealing a skill longer or the spirit doing something useful with their own hands, they may have something to share with those in need. Do not let any unwholesome time come out of your mouth. But a little bit helps to build others up, according to their needs. And it may be benefit those who listen. But do not breathe the Holy Spirit of God, because we are sealed today with you. Be rid of all bitterness, brain with anger, brawling splendor, blown with every every one of mouse, and kind compassionate for one another. Forgive me just as in us. I don't think the challenge of the church is necessarily the gathering. It has its levels. That's what makes us because we come into the church with preconceived ideas and notions about what's good for us. And as we study the word of God, and as we take the heart, the scriptures, doing the things that I talk about on Sunday morning, it forces us to step beyond what we know into something better. That's why the world stands opposed to the world. But then we call people to live physically. The world has this idea to do whatever makes you happy. Listen, that's stupid. Because it doesn't work. I had this conversation with a long time. Like what people should just do or make some happy. I was going, how do you feel about cannabis? And they're like, what? I make some happy. Is that okay? Well, that's not what listen, you can't say do what makes you happy and then put restrictions on it. That's not how that works. So you really mean that, but you don't. When you say do what makes you happy, that's you excusing your behavior. Well, if they do it, then I'm gonna do it too, and I'm gonna do whatever I want. That's not this idea of a gathering of believers as we are striving to be whole. Live differently. Do not live the way they do because you have been caught a different women. A sign of a healthy church should be pushing you to holy. Understand this. Not perfection. No one is perfect beside Jesus. But we should strive to be like Jesus, and as we strive to be like Jesus, we grow holder. We live differently. We act differently. We love differently. When I say that everyone is accepted here, I mean everyone. But understand that just because you're accepted here doesn't mean you can stay in the way that you work. I would do nothing but harm if I told you that I wasn't trying to change the way you live. That's not what it is. Just say we gather together, we lift each other up, we encourage each other, we hold each other accountable.

SPEAKER_03:

But I was so very funny. I have one of the things that I have to run very significantly. I find not so influenced.

SPEAKER_01:

Like handful. But I realized this the other day we were actually last Sunday we were driving home after church. Only I noticed like a bunch of construction going on. All the roads are too much, which is incomediate, uncomfortable and start off the bond button. And so we're driving home, and I noticed they started paving one of the roads. All I said is loads. And I hope they do a better job than they did in the year. And everything. My tank boat. By the way, you doesn't drive. Or money or roads. April. From matches, yeah. They're really bad at their job. Someone should fire them. It's funny. That better new line is products. I have said it enough times in my thing and now draft this idea that the abandonment only knows how to do it. I never paid the road in my life. What are they thinking? What am I what am I model? So I think he's right. Yeah. I'm upset. I'm frustrated. Listen, the church is a perfect. That's what makes this so it's a bunch of trying to accomplish something. Try and see Jesus, try and see holiness, but it's not always. But that's not the problem. Paul says that we should strive we're flipping each other. To build that to say things that only build each other. These things have no place in the body. So many people don't go for the church in public.

SPEAKER_02:

Excuse me.

SPEAKER_03:

Something for a lot of people are little bad state.

SPEAKER_01:

But the Paul holds us to something better. Again, it's not about the perfect church. Church is about a lot of Jesus. And some of us are further along than others, and that's okay. But but I believe that we never arrive to redirect. As long as you are breathing, there's the others. As long as you are alive, as long as you're fucking, we're not feeling the growth. Here's what I'm gonna get. Sorting alongside other people, just rely on it. There are people that cause the problem, but the way you deal with. Don't entertain. Deal with all the the letter he wrote the parts. He said you deal with all of this stuff, not get all. Listen, everything should have its views.

SPEAKER_03:

They seek to be like for the people university. For the people regarding. This should be a place.

SPEAKER_02:

This should be a place that's constantly moving us the right. It's constantly moving us the holiday.

SPEAKER_01:

Your faith, if you're a following of Jesus, makes you comfortable all the time you're not here. Because we gather together to remind ourselves. Not only do we have others who are walking Satan's path, but we have others who are teaching us and falling up with comfortable and pushing us onwards the word of God. I wrote this down this week. So I think about this church, and I think about the importance of this is what I think should define the student church. The pre-profit of Scripture Church is committed to Jesus. We're committed to teaching the truth of Scripture always. Our student ministry, we're committed to our student uh ministry growing and working to build it up together and make it stronger. And my goal is Jesse here, folks. That's my goal. I just want you to know that's my hope. That's my prayer. Because I see what he does. Part-time all the way down. That's all that's what we can do. Our children's ministry, we want our children's ministry to be strong and sick. The wonderful bonds here, something to learn about the existing. We want to celebrate baptism weekly, regularly rejoicing in what God is doing the lives for the Quran. We want to have a strong, visible community presence. I want us to be the church. The people who know who exists. We want to love one another, love the future. We want our worship to be engaging and uplifting always. We want our Sunday, our Sunday gatherings to be encouraging and challenging, helping everyone to grow their faith. We want to be a church that's sold out for the mission and purpose of Jesus that He's called us to. But if it costs every day, we want to build a church where people can be physically, spiritually together. We want to be generous with our time and our resources, investing God's pain. We want to always be talking about the inferred joy of those thoughts. We want to build facilities not for ourselves, but for those coming to Jesus, creating space for growth. We want to be a church that is spirit led and spirit empowered, relying on God's power every single step. We want this community and this region to be better simply because we exist. We want to be a church for those struggling with addictions. We want to set the stage for providing in this area of the other. It's happening everywhere. Why can't it happen? You want people to find this church finding Jesus. This is what I believe. And the way we accomplish that is by making this priority. By showing up and participating, we're all it also means we have to find each other's calculus out of it. We can build each other up. Jesus believes the condition of the church. He established it. If you are his follower or part of the church, which means you have a focus. All of these ideas, these visions that I have for this dream. Listen, I don't want this just to be Jason's vision. I want it to be ours. Listen, that's build multiplying. This is what we're seeking. Not so we can say, look at what we did. I don't listen, I the only praise I need is to do the Facebook service while I die. I don't care if you know what else was. Because when I die, you're probably not gonna be there next to me. You probably the only praise I need is when God takes me home and says, You've got a black love of multiple survivors here.

SPEAKER_03:

That doesn't fly any naked with burn on what's the link, but but the side of the arm open.

SPEAKER_02:

That's what makes it just appear.

SPEAKER_01:

Because to be faster part of the church, you have to be willing to die with your stuff. You have to be willing to die with yourself.