The Diceology Podcast

Muses of Play

• MadJayZero • Season 1 • Episode 1

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Creativity doesn’t come with a handbook, so we're building our own. We swap notes on how solo game makers and artists actually get things done: setting a three-influence pillar to keep ideas fresh, designing from mechanics without losing theme, and navigating the murky last 5 percent where projects stall. Sarah shares how Bluebeard’s Bride and Velvet Glove grew from triangulated influences, why a haunted hotel retreat unlocked a stuck chapter, and how tiny mint‑tin drawings rebuilt a drawing habit. Jay brings a crunchy “debt‑punk” concept where upgrades cost debt and the whole loop is about clawing your way back to zero, plus the reality of pacing work under the gaze of Kickstarter backers.

We get candid about boundaries, voice, and trust. Backers deserve clarity, not personal disclosure, so we talk about communicating progress without oversharing. Editing is a partnership that should preserve tone, not sand it down. Accountability doesn’t have to be a crowd; sometimes it’s a weekly call with one trusted peer who will cheer, critique, and expect pages by Tuesday. And when screens drain you, physical making—ink sketches, pencils, binding, even painting minis—can refill the well in a way no doc can. Music becomes a quiet engine for focus too: looping Yes Yeah Yeahs for a vast, echoing dungeon vibe; dropping All Them Witches to score void‑cathedrals and space‑goth moods.

There’s a personal layer we don’t gloss over: how early support—or the lack of it—shapes creative identity, and how we parent with privacy in mind while giving kids real access to tools, art, and music. We close with an “Ask One Forward” prompt for our next guests, the Bakers, about social media, kids, and creativity, and we lay out what’s shipping: In The Pines in edit, Velvet Glove headed to editing, Prison Planet drafting, and more playtests on deck. If you care about game design craft, sustainable habits, and finishing strong without losing your voice, this one’s for you.

Enjoyed the conversation? Follow, share with a creative friend, and leave a review with your favorite trick for getting from 95 percent to done.

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SPEAKER_00:

Welcome to Music Display, a podcast about creativity, inspiration, and the messy joy of making games and art.

SPEAKER_01:

We'll chat with designers, writers, artists, and makers about where their ideas come from, how they shape their work, and what keeps them going.

SPEAKER_00:

I'm Sarah Doom. I write fiction, design games, and make art. I'm deeply invested in creativity and inspiration, and I'm always looking for ways to incorporate others' routines and rituals into something I can do.

SPEAKER_01:

And I'm Mad Jay. If you game, I play games. I run games, travel for games, write about, stream, and podcast games. As I explore the shape of my new game, I thought I could cheat by having conversations with different folks about how they do it. So why are we doing this? I'm wrapping up a game. I'm thinking about new games. I know other folks have new games coming out. And my thought is I know how I do stuff and why I do it. I'm curious about some of the work you've done, Sarah, uh, some of the stuff other folks are doing uh and how they got there. Um and I don't know that other folks have had that type of conversation. Uh so I want to do that. That's why I'm here.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I mean, I am a one-person shop um minus anyone I I hire to work with me. So like although I have a lot of good examples of how to do games, it's it's something I'm constantly exploring and trying to figure out. Um so some of this for me is not is is that kind of mirror effect where by looking at what other people are doing, it will allow me to better Right.

SPEAKER_01:

Right. No. And I think I think I'm there too. That's what I'm looking for. Is how do I get better uh at the stuff that that I'm not great at, right? Um or did I get uh do I have tunnel vision about some stuff? Because sometimes I think I focus too hard on mechanics and the people get frowny faces. And I don't know, yeah. I don't know if if uh is that there's a self-awareness there. Is that real? Am I uh too close, right? Are they are there some valid thoughts there and how do I how do I engage with that?

SPEAKER_00:

So and if you're not part of a big company, if you're like most people in this space where it's either a hobby or it's a profession, and there's no handbook on how to do it, there's no like one right way. So even whenever I've had the opportunity to mentor people who are just entering the space, like how much they've taught me just with their questions and their assumptions. And so I'm I'm finding like trying to talk to people with medium-level experience, trying to talk to people with all the experience, like getting those different levels of experience are just teaching me a lot about what's possible, even if I'm not gonna use it myself.

SPEAKER_01:

No, I get that. I get that. Um, you said something there that sparked my brain. Um, big companies. Have you worked for like a big company or medium-sized company or a company in general? I have not.

SPEAKER_00:

Um, I have. I've I have kind of bounced around through the industry. Most of my work has been contract work. So I've done a lot of freelance work for a couple of different companies.

SPEAKER_01:

I hadn't thought about it until you said it. As a company, do they have like a handbook on creativity, or at least how they may want things to be created, or what they think about creativity, or how to how to engage with it, or anything like that? I have no idea because I've only contracted also.

SPEAKER_00:

Um, that's funny because at one point I was uh put on a project to do developmental processes for a small to medium-sized company. And so that has led to me doing my own documentation of processes. And I wonder, I wonder if that's where part of this thought started.

SPEAKER_02:

Right.

SPEAKER_00:

Because whenever I look at my little Word document that's telling me this is how you make an ash can, this is how you make a final published book, there's this unknown space right before the first step. So one of the things, if we want to jump into some personal thoughts on it, one of the things that I've been working on lately and thinking about lately is one of my personal pillars of standards for games, is I want to have at least three different influences on the subject. So, like whenever I look at let's say Bluebeard's Bride. Okay. Because why not? Um the influences were a fairy tale, okay, gothic literature, right, right, and haunted house movies.

SPEAKER_01:

All right, all right. I can see all three of those.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, we put all three of those together and we got Bluebeard's Bride. Like the fairy tale was the biggest influence, but those other two are there too. So that's why, like, when you get to Velvet Glove, there's this exploitation movie called Faster Pussycat Kill Kill that I love with Tora Saitana, and it's these go-go dancers who are just going wild out in the world. Um, it's very violent, it's very uptime. It's a thing. Um, and then I also read the zine called Ugly Girl Gang by Tuesday Bassin, and she's she's more like laid back 70s.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

We are lesbians who are gonna fuck you up, which you know, still in the same vein. Um, and then I read the uh Joyce Carol Oates book, Fox Fire, which is about these these girls in a gang. And I got these three different viewpoints of what it's like to be a woman who's who's like interacting with violence.

SPEAKER_02:

Right.

SPEAKER_00:

And then I I put in Teen Girls. And and so you have these multiple points of influence. So I'm always like evaluating what I'm being inspired by and where my creativity is being sparked by like a lot of it is media.

SPEAKER_03:

Right, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So I I don't know what you're doing, but I'm over here like paying attention. Like, why am why am I suddenly ingesting all of the serial killer fiction? Is it because a game is brewing? Like, I don't know. Maybe it's relaxing.

SPEAKER_01:

I think for me, I um it's either I'm coming in through the mechanics side, what would be fun to play with at the table? Uh dice cards, uh astrology, tarot cards, right? What would be fun to have at the table? What's the game there? What's the mechanics there? Or I'm coming in from um not a big premise. Um so if it's superheroes, I want to tighten it down. Uh I want mutants. I don't want the whole bag, right? But then uh shortly after that, I'd like the three influence idea, because I don't do that. I think I usually end up with one, and then I'm jumping right into mechanics. How do I make mechanics to support this premise that I'm running with? One of the new things I'm thinking about, I've been thinking about and playing around with, I call it, my son and I came up with it, we call it debt punk. And I'm at a spot where I think most games we uh we roll up our stats or we get to our stats, we roll up some money, we go spend that money. Um and my thought is what if we what if it's the opposite, that you have a baseline of average, regular, boring stats, but if you bump those up, you gotta bump up some debt score, right? Uh I could go get stuff, buy stuff, equipment, but that runs up my debt. Uh and the the the whole point of whatever the game is, is to reduce that debt down to whatever and get out. That's the game mechanic stuff that's been spooling around in my head. Uh I don't have a premise or setting or anything. I just want to play with that idea of I've got all this debt, and now I've got to go do stuff to to reduce it. Uh and why am I in this situation? And I haven't it's it's all rough. Uh but that's how I get to a thing. And maybe, and I've been I've been thinking it it takes too long for me. Um I see as I look around, I see other folks, and maybe that's not fair. Uh I see other folks iterate faster uh successfully. But then we uh we also see some other games. Uh it's a couple years or three or four years, right?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

So maybe I'm being unfair or hard on myself. I didn't think about that.

SPEAKER_00:

I think you are, and I think that's probably a good segue into like what we're finishing, because there is this wall of of opaqueness over like what the people were talking about, the other game designers, and what we ourselves are actually doing. Like I am a full-time game designer, writer, art person. Um, this is my job. So if I am doing versions of a game quicker than someone who is, for example, working part-time on it because they have a real job.

SPEAKER_02:

Right.

SPEAKER_00:

Um that makes sense, right?

SPEAKER_02:

Right.

SPEAKER_00:

So there's there's all the different factors, one of which is just how fast do you design? And have you hit a wall? What does the game need? What are your play tests telling you? Have you been able to do a play test? Like there are all these other all these factors that go into it, so you're totally being too hard on yourself.

SPEAKER_01:

It makes me feel way better. It does. So, what are you finishing? What are you wrapping up?

SPEAKER_00:

I'm not sure I'm wrapping up anything. Um what I've got going on right now is in the pines ash can is with the editor. So there's not much I can do until I get it back. And I I do everything except for editing. So I'm gonna be doing the layout, the illustration, all of it. Um Velvet Glove is ready to go to editing. It's it's done, baby. It's so I love Velvet Glove.

SPEAKER_01:

I'm glad I got to play uh two campaigns with you. So that was that was awesome. I enjoyed that.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, it it it is done being designed, done being written. It's gonna go to editing, and and I just so excited. Um the tiny game I was doing, the Maiden and the Rake, that was supposed to just be like this cute little hack of a game called Bedlam Beautiful, and I was gonna go on my merry way, has now warped into its own game design. So the playtesting is stalled, it's gone back to design, and I have a table for a bunch of tarot cards. It's what I'm doing to myself. Uh, Prison Planet is the second playtest is coming up. Um, so I was wrapping up some design stuff today. And then I have a bunch that I haven't started yet. So the furthest along is in the pines. That's in the editing phase, which that will come back from editing. I will make any changes. We will see if it needs to go through another round of editing. But if not, then it goes to layout and then it goes to illustration, and then it goes out as a PDF, and people will be able to buy it. Sorry for the funny hand gestures I talked with my hand, but it's fine.

SPEAKER_01:

No, I totally get that part. I do. Um what's the what's the hardest part about um finishing.

SPEAKER_00:

In the Pines did not give me any trouble. Okay, it's it's my newest game. You know. So it has not been laying around for a long time getting stagnant.

SPEAKER_01:

Gotcha, gotcha.

SPEAKER_00:

Velvet Glove, I got 95% done writing it and hit a wall. I could not figure out how to finish the long example, which is the last chapter of the book. I got I got like 600 words in and I just stopped and I put it aside, and it's been sitting there for months, and I've I've been feeling really bad about that. So I think there is something about trying to finish it. Sometimes you just hit a wall and then you have to figure out what that wall is and work around it. Like sometimes I would open the file and I'd type two words and then I'd close it again.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh man.

SPEAKER_00:

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01:

Man.

SPEAKER_00:

Um, I tried writing it long hand, which actually worked a little better. Okay. Um, and then typing it up, and I felt very accomplished, and then I closed it and ignored it for another couple of weeks. Um, and what actually ended up happening is I took it with me to a writing retreat and I told my writing partner, I am finishing this thing today. And she's like, Yeah, you are. And having that kind of outside accountability from them just really it actually worked. It pushed me and I finished it.

SPEAKER_01:

That's crazy. So I'd laugh uh because everything you just described about those hard parts, I hit those parts. And then I I feel uh silly because I should have reached out and talked to somebody. I should have called you or anybody and said, Hey, uh, you've done this before. This is new for me. Have you ever hit these parts? And I didn't do that, right? Um I uh opening the file, looking at the text that's in there, putting in a couple of words, going to make some coffee, walk the dog, come back, close the file, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um lifted is where I uh I'm finishing up and wrapping up. It's my superhero uh role-playing game uh for Cortex Prime. And early on, it's late. I'm like two years late, um, but it's in layout. Um I just got in. Yes, and Nathan's doing Nathan Pauletta is doing the layout. Um we've worked together in the past on stuff he's done layout for me before, so I like we we have a good we've got good chemistry when we're doing projects, and I like Nathan.

SPEAKER_00:

Nathan is is excellent. He is top tier, and I'm still sad he moved away from Chicago.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. He loves We Zat, though, so um I'm happy for him. Yeah, it's in layout. Uh I've got some edits in the Game Master section um that I'm working through. And then uh when he and I've got some art pieces that's that's missing, uh, like six pieces, but I found a new artist and they're gonna wrap that up, and then it'll be PDF time and folks don't have it. Uh no, in that first year I hit that wall, right? Uh I don't know. Uh I don't know what I was uh that was it was a dark, dark, dark, dark, dark time. I don't even know. Um I think I don't know how I got there. Um I remember though thinking I think I would I thought I was trying to make Marvel Heroic 2, right? Because uh That makes sense right because uh Cam um the Cortex license got pulled for from Marvel Heroic, so they couldn't do a they couldn't continue making that product. And my thought is once he got Cortex Prime and pulled all the different Cortex pieces into one toolkit, I'll just remake Marvel Heroic, roll that back out there, and we can keep it going. And that was what my brain was, and I did the Kickstarter for that. But as the Kickstarter resolved and I started working on it, my thought was people already have that game, right? Why what am I doing? Right. And then if why would I remake that game when it's already there? And then if I don't do, I already took the money, what am I supposed to do now?

SPEAKER_00:

I I think you're actually you're hitting on something there too. So I've been emphasizing how like I am on my own. I haven't done a Kickstarter for myself, so I don't have people backers out there in the darkness looking for updates. So I don't have accountability that way, but you do.

SPEAKER_01:

I do. Um, and I want to say I I feel like I have the best backers in that uh they will ping me every now and again for an update. Not every month, right? Um, and they're not hostile, right? Uh and they've been understanding, right? Uh I've seen some other Kickstarters where I'm like, wow, that's gonna be a street brawl right there. And and I will out myself, there are actually there's only one. There's one Kickstarter that um I probably could have been less angry dog about, right? No matter how long. Right. I would yeah, this one, and I'm gonna be nicer, and I'm not even gonna name it, even though they live close to where I live. I was I was I was bad about that Kickstarter. And and I could have been easier about it. Um and that's easy to say because I'm over here now, and folks have not been as hostile to me as they were to that other Kickstarter. So I can I can I can see it a little bit differently now, sort of.

SPEAKER_00:

So I have I have worked on some big Kickstarters, and I have been the receiving end of a lot of vitriol um from backers who who would not realize that they were communicating with me, even though I'd I'd be like, I am Sarah. You know, they they're they don't know, they don't it doesn't matter, right?

SPEAKER_03:

Wow.

SPEAKER_00:

Um that is why I have not done a Kickstarter for myself. I have been there, I have done that, I have no interest in going back.

SPEAKER_02:

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00:

And and I understand where that is limiting things, and that is putting a constraint. So there's two constraints from Kickstarter, and one is the backers. Which I'm so glad they're treating you well. Um, and the other constraint is in the in this game space, that's how you print. So I am not getting to print because I'm not doing Kickstarters.

SPEAKER_02:

Right.

SPEAKER_00:

And that is a choice I made. And it's been hard, but it's the right one for me. Because I have seen the craziness that can be here.

SPEAKER_01:

I've got I've gotten a couple of silly ones. I think it could have gotten worse. Maybe I've got a little. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know what to call it. I think the the the craziest thing I've gotten was uh a question about wokeness, right? Is this gonna be woke, right? And that word is so complicated and it's like freshle to me, right? Uh I'm thinking it used to be cool, people should stop using it now, right? Because it doesn't mean what we think it means when people say it. And so my answer was, man, I drink three pots of coffee every day, right? I'm always woke, right? Every day. I don't know what to tell you, right? So um I think for me though, I think I I hear you, and I think to do it again, uh, I might not have gone the Kickstarter route. And if I did, I would have the rough draft of whatever it is I'm doing done before I went to Kickstarter. That would be the lesson I learned here is uh get it as complete as possible so that I'm just doing edits, layout, and art. Um and then my thought is if I have it that far, do I even need, and I think you're right, do I even need Kickstarter? And I might if I'm trying to do a big print run.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, because I I I do personally feel like now that is the only way to approach Kickstarter is if you are at that point.

SPEAKER_02:

Right.

SPEAKER_00:

Um But we'll see. We'll see what happens. Um I could always change my mind. I there could always be a different mode of of progress that comes out that we can all use that won't be like so terrible.

SPEAKER_01:

I thought No, you go go ahead.

SPEAKER_00:

No, I've got my thoughts.

SPEAKER_01:

I was gonna um I can't remember his name right now. Um is it Greg Greg Greg Stoltz?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, Greg Stoltz.

SPEAKER_01:

Uh he I remember he did the ransom model.

SPEAKER_00:

Actually, we should totally look that up and make sure.

SPEAKER_01:

We should, because I was gonna say, I think it I made this mistake with with Lowell. Uh is it Stoltz or is it Stoltzy? Or is it right? Are we butchering or Stoltz? Are we butchering his name? Oh, edit all this out so we sound like we're smart and we know how to say it.

SPEAKER_00:

He wrote a short story that creeped me the fuck out and is like buried in my psyche about um Eldritch gods. Uh-huh. Uh and uh military people encountering them and being kept in sexual slavery by these these like creatures. And I'm like it fucked my head up. I don't know. Like, damn man. I am impressed. There are not a lot of books that do that.

SPEAKER_01:

That is funny. No, I think of him, uh, I don't remember how long ago, and I don't remember what books it was or they were at the time. Um I think it's him that is responsible for the ransom model, where he would say, I'm doing this thing, and then when I get X amount of dollars, I'll release it. Um and this was before Kickstarter. Um Stolz. Stolzy. So my thought is I wonder if uh that still has uh some use uh outside of Kickstarter, right?

SPEAKER_00:

Um I think it does. The Melisonian Art Council guy um is uh basically using I think Backer Kit as pre-ordering.

SPEAKER_01:

Right, yeah, yeah, I can see that.

SPEAKER_00:

So I think it might be that people are moving to something like that.

SPEAKER_01:

I can see that.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, he's doing crowdfunding right after he's like, we're never doing crowdfunding again.

SPEAKER_01:

I may have to read it. Does he go into detail about why?

SPEAKER_00:

Mm-hmm. Yeah, he he wrote about it.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

And was basically like, I am a person, and crowdfunding does not enable people to be people. I am badly summarizing it. You should read it yourself.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, no, no, for sure, for sure. Uh and that was my fear, or what I was wondering is uh I've known some other folks, um maybe all game or game adjacent uh with bad backer interactions um from their crowdfunding projects. Um and uh that that's sad to me. That yeah, that's sad. That uh and so I feel like I'm lucky that I didn't have like so I had I have probably had two or three knuckleheads, right? Um and and then and they know they were knuckleheads. Um but it didn't go, it didn't get crazy. And uh um and I'm grateful for that. Uh but also, like you said earlier, there's that accountability, and I can feel it. It's a weight there, and I feel terrible that it's taken me two years. Um and I will never uh I think I just put out a backer post, say uh, hey, I'm going through these struggles, I'm going through this, here's some other obstacles, because I feel like that's not what they backed. So I'm never sharing that stuff. Um I will I will generalize uh rough things. Like my kid, I have my kid full time now, and I've had for the last three years, we had some hiccups and some bumps and things um to where we're settled now. Um, but I would never put that in my backer thing, right? Umly because one, I know how I was when someone did do that. And I'm like, man, I'm not trying to hear from your wife on this thing, right? Your wife didn't do this Kickstarter. I don't wanna, right? I'm and that's probably wrong, right? That was probably wrong.

SPEAKER_00:

Um I don't know if it's wrong, but I uh I have a different take on it because um I try to be as transparent as possible while still being responsible to the people in my life. That's why, like, you know, um my son has a funny nickname, Doom Lord, and nobody gives his real name.

SPEAKER_02:

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00:

Um, because I'm trying to give him as much privacy as I can.

SPEAKER_02:

Right.

SPEAKER_00:

Um, while at the same time trying to be open about what it's like to be a female game designer who's a mother who um has some health issues, who you know is going through life like everyone else is. So, you know, since I I don't have a Kickstarter, I mainly put this stuff on my Patreon. And I don't talk specifically a lot of times about some of the health stuff that I'm going through. Um, because I am a private person. But especially on Blue Sky and other social media, you know, sometimes I will be like just posting and open about like, yeah, I was gonna write all day today, and and somebody had to, you know, get the flu from somebody else at school. And instead I am watching, you know, Minecraft video on YouTube for hours. For hours while while making soup, because that is also a part of my life and making games. Um and I have seen I've seen a lot of women who are like, you never hear, you know, it's it's few and far between to hear female game designers, and then it's fewer to hear game designers who are parents and both genders there because and since we're both parents, since that tends to swallow people alive for like 18 years.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Um so that part is really, really hard, and that's not an excuse, that's just a reality.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I'm not sure how to present it, right? Uh there's funny stories, right? I will I will share gaming stories about my kids and stuff like that. That's easy, right? Yeah. Uh, but there's other stuff, and I don't know how much, yeah, I'm with you, how much uh to share, how much is uh appropriate. And I'm using the scary quotes, right? Um, but it's real, it's everyday life, it's all in there. And I feel like uh game-wise, when I talk about game stuff, I like to root it in real life stuff. Uh I want other folks to feel like, um especially when I'm talking about running games, I'm like, yeah, there I've had people get up from a table and they're like, yeah, it's not for me, I'm leaving. So I'm not some awesome rock star, can't ever fail facilitator, right? Folks have been disappointed with stuff I brought to the table. That's that's a real thing. Uh I've slipped up and made some wrong calls at the table, and that's a real thing. And so with that, I also want to bring in, you know, here's how I live. I have a normal life like everybody else, right? And uh some of that's weird. I don't know how to um approach that that topic or or make it I don't know, I don't know, to make it easy to talk about. So I get that.

SPEAKER_00:

As a side note, we should totally ask the bakers about that because they clearly have an approach.

SPEAKER_01:

You're correct. You're correct. In fact, uh when I edit this, I will pull this out and write. And that'll be, yeah, that'll be the question we pass on to them. I like that.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

That is fantastic. I knew it would work itself out. There's uh there's uh uh I'm stealing it, but I will I use it a lot. Uh Shakespeare and Love, you ever see that?

SPEAKER_00:

Strangely, no.

SPEAKER_01:

It's it's good. I like it. Um, I'm hard on movies. Shakespeare and Love. Uh, it is uh rom-com um running through a uh fantasy fictional version of William Shakespeare's life and his troubles and his ups and downs and his loves and stuff and things like that. I can't remember the name of the character, but there's a guy who owns a playhouse and he's running plays through all the time, and he ends up hooked up with Will, is what they call him, Will Will Familie Shakespeare. Um, and everything's chaotic, and one guy finally asks him, you know, uh, is this is this all gonna be all right? And he's like, I don't know. It'll work itself out. It always does, it's fine. And I'm like, that's crazy. And it does, it always works itself out.

SPEAKER_00:

It does, but it's so hard to let it just let it be.

SPEAKER_01:

To let it be, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Mm-mm. So we kind of talked about crowdfounding a bit and accountability and you know, doing some stuff to help get us out of block because you know, having other people working on stuff next to us and talking to them about it. Um but what you said about rooted in real life, you know, I think that's that's part of creativity is when when your creativity isn't working um that I I put a quote down and it's from Kat Rambo, who's a uh science fiction and fantasy writer. Um, and she said that creativity is an ever-replenishing well, and I have everyone in my face all the time, social media and everything that like take care of yourself and refill your own cup, and then you should be able to have all the access to all this creativity, right?

SPEAKER_02:

Right.

SPEAKER_00:

Um that is also where I am looking at it because right now, for for a while now, I've had this gigantic block with physical art. I have been able to draw, and I'm like, what is wrong with me? I have a degree in this, and yet I'm like, my my sketchbook is empty. Um and it's it's the kind of thing, it's like going back to what I was saying earlier. I could open up my sketchbook and draw for five minutes, but why is it so hard to make myself do that?

SPEAKER_02:

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00:

So one of the things I I like hearing from other people is how they they break through that wall and and I'm constantly searching for that reassurance that it does work. Like if I am blocked in physical art and I go and interact and create a lot of game work, does that help the artwork somehow? And the answer is supposed to be yes. And so I'm trying all these things and something's starting to work a little bit, a little bit. So I think the importance also of like getting our hands dirty and working and stuff with physical material and methods um cannot be overstated. Because that's part of creativity too. It's like what you're taking in, what you're putting out, what you're doing with your hands. Because just sitting on our laptops all the time typing, I don't know, I I get drained.

SPEAKER_01:

No, you're right. And and it's funny that you uh you talk about the physical part. Um I growing up, I wanted to be a comic book artist. Um, and I haven't drawn like that since high school, right? Um yeah. And now I'm in a tech career, and you're right, I'm on a keyboard, I'm in front of a screen all the time, all day. Um and in my head, uh for me, create I feel like creativity is a thing I have to slow down and listen to. It's always there. I'm not always listening to it. But if I stop and I listen, right, uh then right uh that that's how I approach it. Uh but I think when it comes down to physical stuff, um I'm with you. I I have I can't have stationary pencils, I have a whole bin of art supply stuff and empty sketchbooks. And I'm like, why can't I just open that thing up? Like, give me five minutes, 10 minutes, right? And I don't do it. Um it's Inctober, and three years running, I've gotten into Inktober. And so you draw an ink sketch by prompt, one every day. And I'm on top of it. If I fall behind, I will combine some of the prompts and do a sketch of two or three prompts all in one scene. And I love the whole month of doing that. But come November 1st, I'm done, and I don't, right? Why why do I stop, right? Why don't I and so that makes me sad because I'm like, I love it this whole month. I'm in there, I'm doing it. I can't do it, and I can see the work getting better to me across the days. Uh, but come November, I I close that sketchbook and I don't I don't mess with that stuff anymore. Um, even though I know what you've said is correct. Um if it feels good, the physical stuff is is necessary. I'm not gonna get that from a keyboard. Um and and it's a different, I feel like it's a different type of uh creativity. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00:

It's a different stimulus.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_00:

I am doing a draw a day challenge too, but I had to trick myself. I tricked myself into thinking it was closer to a bookbinding project. So I've cut out one and a half by one and a half square pieces of paper. Okay, and I'm drawing on them one each day, and then I have a little mint that I am decorating so I can keep all the drawings in this little box. And my brain is like, oh, we're not drawing, we're making a little cool container thing. We could do that, and I'm like nice, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

That's what we're doing.

SPEAKER_00:

Don't worry about it.

SPEAKER_01:

That is funny. No, I I totally get that having to trick yourself into a thing, yeah. Yeah, that's that's crazy.

SPEAKER_00:

Whereas the bookbinding project I've have laying over here is still laying over here with everything ready to go, and I just haven't done it yet. Because brains are weird, they are.

SPEAKER_01:

I uh we're talking about physical art, and in my head, I will paint miniatures all day long, right? I'll put a movie on, I'll spend a whole Saturday, right, sitting down just painting miniatures.

SPEAKER_03:

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Um but I want to draw, I want my sketchbooks full, right? That's what I want, right? Uh yeah, brains are weird. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00:

I mean, whenever I was in art school, I was drawing in my sketchbook several hours every day. It was a habit. It continued after art school. So I know I can do it. Right. It's just like you said, we know we can do it. And yet somehow, right now, right now, that is a trickle, a little trickle of creativity.

SPEAKER_02:

Right.

SPEAKER_00:

And the games are a more consistent flow. And then I'm also working on uh a novel that's fiction, and that is if I am not careful, becomes an overwhelming flood. So it could also just be at this particular point in my life, right? My brain is happiest when if I need to do something physical, I am knitting, which I do while I'm watching TV and while I'm relaxing. Um and it's like don't make that into something that is uh not relaxation only.

SPEAKER_01:

I see, I see, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And my brain is like, but work, work is games and novel. And and so the creativity has been diverted over there. Um I don't know if that's what's going on right now. It's possible. It sounds good.

SPEAKER_02:

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00:

Um, and I don't know if it will slosh back in a different way, like once I finish the fantasy novel, if suddenly I will be drawing all the time. Hopefully, because I'm going to be have to do illustrations for these games.

SPEAKER_01:

Right, right. You gotta divert it over to Yeah, I'm with you. Yeah, I'm and if it works that way, I want somebody to write a book to say, yes, it works this way, and and here's the path, here's how you make it go, right? Um, I'm with you. Uh I'm A lot of times I'm I'm hoping uh as things are connected that once I'm done with this aspect, I can move some of that energy this other direction. Uh it's still creative, it's just different. And I don't, yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00:

We can definitely hope. Um I mean, while we were uh talking about doing this podcast, I started looking around and I I looked at I was like, okay, so how many books do I have about creativity? And uh because although you've never been to my house, you may have seen uh some photos of the extensive amount of books I have around my house.

SPEAKER_01:

I have, I have seen some of the shelves, yes.

SPEAKER_00:

My husband and I met working at a bookstore. Wow, okay, all right. Uh in college, actually. So that's why, like, um, yeah, so we're both both big on books and and my son has already quite uh quite a library. So the most thing the most items in my house is books. So I went through and I looked, and I have nine books on just how to be creative as an artist. And some of those I've had for like 20 years.

SPEAKER_03:

Wow, okay, okay.

SPEAKER_00:

So I'm like, has this always been a thing? And I'm like, yeah, this has always been a thing. This is just the life of an artist, right? Where you are trying to figure out it's it's like you looking at the other people, like, am I creative enough? Right. Am I am I doing creativity the right way?

SPEAKER_02:

Right.

SPEAKER_00:

Like I can I can see my friend Molly, and she uh is just an incredibly fast draftswoman. Like she draws so fast, so much faster than me, and so much better. She's amazing. And I'm like, I I can't compare myself to her though, because I will never draw that fast, no matter how much I practice.

SPEAKER_01:

But I'm like, why not? Why can't I do that, right?

SPEAKER_00:

I should be able to do that too, right? Well, that's the little our little artist's brain, right? That's like um crying in in in its little darkness, where it's like, why doesn't it look like it does in my head?

SPEAKER_02:

Right.

SPEAKER_00:

And why can't I do the thing the other person is doing? Because they're doing it, so I should be able to.

SPEAKER_02:

Right.

SPEAKER_00:

And that's not how it works.

SPEAKER_01:

I agree. I agree. I um I play guitar to remind myself, to humble myself, to remind myself that that is true, that just because um guitar is hard for me. I struggle with it. There's plenty of times where I set it down and walked away from it. It's taken me all this time to get to play, and I'm not awesome at it. Um there are other instruments I am way better at. I played uh drums and bugle when I was in the military, mostly little brass horns, all through high school. Uh I picked the guitar um because I knew it was gonna be hard. I was gonna have to learn some stuff I didn't know. Uh I didn't know I would always be struggling with it. And I feel like I can't set it down and quit because then it will have won, right?

SPEAKER_00:

Um you cannot let that guitar win.

SPEAKER_01:

That's right. I can't let it win. And so uh I am for sure better today than I was 10 years ago. I'm not where I want to be with it. And I'm like, why I was way better still at drums than I am at guitar even today. My kid plays drums, and he's still amazed that I'm showing him stuff on the drums. Um he will surpass me. Uh, and I think he is further along than I was at his age. Um, but guitar is hard for me, and and reminds me that some of this other stuff that I think I should be able to like drawing, I should be able to pick it up and run with it. Uh, it might be like guitar, and I'm always going to struggle and wrestle with it and not to let it go uh so it doesn't beat me.

SPEAKER_00:

Um yeah, not to get too honest here, but um there was always a sense in my life that I was struggling so hard to draw and be an illustrator. Um and then I had people on the sidelines who were like, hey, you can also write. And I'm like, no, who cares? Not what I'm doing.

SPEAKER_01:

Right, that's not what I'm doing.

SPEAKER_00:

Um, so that it was it was a major change in my life for me to be like, oh I can write. I'm gonna do this thing. Someone just hired me to write. Oh, oh no, what am I doing? Um, you know, it it quickly it's that steep uphill and then quick drop, like, oh no, what am I doing? Um but I was like, oh, I can also do this. And it does not have the same feeling of struggling most of the time. But then I hit that block that I was talking about earlier, and then I'm like, oh, this is really hard. I since I am alone uh most of the time working in my house, there have there have been times when perhaps the cat is witness to some foul language as I go through the current project on my screen. Right. Because I'm like, this isn't supposed to be hard. I can just write. And my brain's like, not today, you can't.

SPEAKER_01:

That's right, not today. It's funny because I we've hit this a couple of times in this conversation about being solo loan designers, artists. Um, and I know we're going to have the Bakers on uh soon. Uh I remember before the pandemic, Meg Baker would hold a conference call uh with a bunch of folks. Um, I think weekly, if I remember. My brain's fuzzy. Uh kind of a bunch of different creative folks getting together, checking in. Um, here's what I'm working on, here's what I could use some help with, right? And uh and I think that whole call may have lasted maybe half an hour, uh, folks just checking in, um, sharing where they're at, um, wins, uh, struggles, walls, blocks. And that was super that was a call I always looked forward to. And I wonder uh if folks are still doing things like that. Um that be useful to people? Not saying that I'm bringing that to folks, but I think I was gonna say, I think you should volunteer.

SPEAKER_00:

Um That's what that sounded like.

SPEAKER_01:

My thought is we should ask Meg about that. Uh and is she still doing anything like that? Um and maybe, maybe get uh if we're not going to do it, what are some ways we could point folks to help folks to start doing that for their own circles or to grow their own circles to do that kind of thing? Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00:

It does. And so one thing that I do that I haven't uh talked about a whole lot publicly is my friend Sarah Saltille, um, which I know it's a French last name and I always murder it, and I'm sorry. Um, every week we have a phone call where first we catch up on family and stuff because we're friends. Um, but then we send our work to each other since we are solo practitioners. And it's one part accountability, correct? And it's one part dev editing, correct, correct. And it's one part fangirling. So they are working on currently working on a choose your own adventure game that totally had me fangirling. I was like, this is this is so good and also so gross. And she managed to write a such an intense scene. We were in a coffee shop while I was reading it. I scared the coffee shop worker with how loud I yelped.

SPEAKER_01:

That is funny. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

That is how much it grossed me out.

SPEAKER_01:

I was I was impressed.

SPEAKER_00:

Um because it does take a bit to gross me out to that level. It was oh oh. Um, so we are doing that just for each other. And I have had in the past the impulse because it's like you know, there's some structures in place for beginner designers. There's Utopia, there's Auditopia Scholarship, there's the IGDN. But after you put out your first game, the support kind of falls away. And that's no one's fault. It's just it's kind of like after I had my son, there wasn't a whole lot of support for me as a new mother trying to get back to work. Right, right. Um, like these are transitional periods that are you know not necessarily supported very well, societal failure and all that. Um so I had I had thought about doing such a thing for young designers, but then I was like, do I have the bandwidth?

SPEAKER_02:

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00:

And at the time the answer was no, absolutely not. Um, but Sarah and I have been doing this weekly phone call for over a year now.

SPEAKER_02:

Wow.

SPEAKER_00:

And it is it is so good and so important and so needed. And I think that I am further in my journey as a game designer because of it.

SPEAKER_01:

Right, right. I believe that. Yeah, I believe that. Um, when I brought it up earlier, my thought was uh when I said I'm not the one to bring it to folks, because in my head, my thought is uh it's gotta be personal, it's gotta be close, right? If I do it, uh I feel like it's a bunch of strangers, and um I won't know what that top number is. Uh and I I think maybe it shouldn't be 30 or 20 or 10, maybe it's just three or four, right? And so my thought is uh I think they work best uh when it's smaller and of like-minded folks, and not some side hustle. Uh that's where my brain immediately went to is that could be a side hustle. And I think it shouldn't be. And I wouldn't join that myself because that's not what I want out of it, right? Um and so yeah, I think what you've got is, especially if you guys have been doing that for a year, is exactly what I'm talking about, is that I think um there's skin in that, and um you're both getting something out of it without having to lay dollars down for it.

SPEAKER_00:

Um there is accountability, there is a deadline. There is, you must send me your work by Tuesday. I think it's at one point it was Tuesday when we were meeting on Thursday. Um by Tuesday night, so I have time to review it and give you and have feedback for you by the time we meet.

unknown:

Right.

SPEAKER_00:

And that's not something that everyone can do because not everyone can hold themselves to that.

unknown:

Agreed.

SPEAKER_00:

But that is, I think that is the key to making something like that work.

SPEAKER_01:

I need one of those. I need, I need some of that. Uh so you got me curious in the in the document we're working off of, you've got two bands, the Yeah, yeah, yeah, and all them witches.

SPEAKER_00:

Um, yeah, so so this is the the muse of play current part of it. What uh is acting as a muse for us? I I find myself uh I am pretty bad about putting one song on repeat while I'm working. I'm like, this is this is the exact everything, the the vibe, the feel, the music. Like I just need this song to play over and over again while I finish writing this part of the game. And then I'll be like, okay, uh, that was um some unhinged behavior. And I'm glad no one was around to see it. But clearly from your reaction, I'm not the only one who does it.

SPEAKER_01:

Nope, not at all.

SPEAKER_00:

Uh so yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh right now the song is uh spitting at the edge of the world.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, I know that, yes.

SPEAKER_00:

Has has been the vibe for the game I'm currently working on, Prison Planet, which desperately needs a new name. It is dark and echoing and making me think of an everlasting dungeon without being explicitly fantasy. And it's just grinding along as I as I'm writing all of this weird um eternal darkness, kind of witch culty, dungeon-y goodness. Um and also for both that and I am doing some freelance work for Black Armada Games. Um, they just finished their Kickstarter for X Teniverse. Yes. And I'm writing a bit for that. And um they the way they pitch it to me is they're like, it's like 40k, but also met Gideon the Ninth, if you've ever read that book.

SPEAKER_01:

I have, yes.

SPEAKER_00:

And I was like, okay, I'm in. Like no need to say anything more. Right. Uh and and so I I pitched to them uh a zero gravity church floating in space is found, and it's totally black, and it's inhabited entirely by men.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

And I'm not gonna spoil it. Okay. But that's that's what it is. And the the music, the soundtrack for that is this band, All Them Witches, um, which are doing doom metal, broadly speaking. Okay. Uh someone's gonna show up and say I'm wrong, and that's fine. Um in my head, that's how I characterize them. But it it is much more dark, fantastic yet stoner-ish kind of grand epic metal songs. Okay, um, very melodic. Because I I realize whenever I say metal, some people think of stuff like Metallica, and that's not what I mean. So all them witches, especially the song called Charles William.

SPEAKER_01:

Charles William?

SPEAKER_00:

Charles William.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. I was gonna ask you for a song. Um perfect.

SPEAKER_00:

My son actually loves the marriage of coyote woman.

SPEAKER_01:

I'd like that title.

SPEAKER_00:

I know. I was like, I'm so proud of you. So yeah, so I those are the uh two uh songs I've been listening to that have been really fueling my writing. And then the other thing that I had up as something that was acting as a muse for me right now is with said friend Sarah, uh, we did a riding retreat where for three days we missed one day because I had altitude sickness. We rented a hotel room in a haunted hotel in a ghost town in Colorado. Although they had a steampunk fair, which we did not plan on and were surprised to find out was happening. We spent three days hardcore writing, heads down, writing all morning, exchanging stuff. We started making a game together, um, giving critiques and then going back and writing. And it just really solidified some stuff I knew I needed to do.

SPEAKER_02:

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00:

Uh, gave me a space to do some stuff I needed to do, like finish Fell the Glove. And it was like inspirational. Like it was like going to a convention. Right. You you get done at the convention and you're like, I'm gonna go home and make all the games. That's how I felt. Kind of still feel.

SPEAKER_01:

I like uh, and I was gonna ask you about your writing retreat. I thought uh it was more formal. Um, but I like the and I've done this where I pack up, take uh usually for my computer work, usually there's a block or a lot of stuff I got to get done, and I can't do it here in the house. And so I'll pick a destination and I'll go there for two or three days, rent a hotel room, um, and spend the day. Because I can't do anything else. There's nothing else. It's not my room, it's not my house. All I have is the work I've brought. And so, and I I get some of the best stuff done under those conditions for that short amount of time. And so that's what I'm hearing. Uh yeah. And I love that mode. Uh, I can't do it for forever, but I like uh when I do do that, uh it it it breaks down a lot of walls, a lot of blocks. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, it's great. It is fantastic.

SPEAKER_01:

I think that brings us down to Ask One Forward. Unless you have something else.

SPEAKER_00:

We gotta do you, man.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, that I'll jump right over that because I haven't backwards. Yes, so I'm I sorry, yes. Sorry. I'm uh I'm deep. So Glenn Cook is an author I've been reading for a while. Um I am familiar. Yeah, so I think a lot of people know him from the Black Company. Uh from the Black Company, I get to the Dread Empire, and I think he's got like nine, maybe, maybe twelve books in that series. Um, and I started at the beginning and I'm deep in there uh reading through that. Uh so I'm gonna say some stuff that I think might get me kicked out of the tabletop role-playing game clubs. I don't like King Arthur. I'm not into King Arthur stuff. Uh I'm not into a lot of World War II setting type stuff. Um I love Lord of the Rings, uh, but I don't want any knockoff clones or anything like that, right? Um we have the Lord of the Rings stuff. I don't uh and so the Dread Empire to me is a different fantasy vibe, right? Uh it's very political. Um, there's a lot of large-scale um army kind of fights, fantasy army type stuff, but it's it's a different vibe altogether to me uh that I dig. Um a lot of interpersonal stuff. And so I think I'm only four books in the series. Um I like all the characters so far. Um the first two books, he jumps around in time, so it it it was hard going a little bit, but now it's way easier for me. Um I think the draw to me or the the muse for me is how different the fantasy vibe is uh than all the other stuff that uh I've gotten, especially settings from um like Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk, right? All that is very has become very generic. I remember uh Young Jay, it was all brand new and and crunchy, and but now it's it's you know been rehashed and cooked three, four, five times. And um I want Something different. So yeah, I'm nowhere near finishing the series. It's old. It's been around a long time. I want to say they're reprinting the stuff, which is great because I've got uh the compendium books, and I think they're three in a shot, but I'm working through those, and that's been that's been a muse for me.

SPEAKER_00:

Um let me kick you out for not liking King Arthur.

SPEAKER_01:

I just I I uh so uh I'm not even sure what it is. So I will play Pin Dragon, right? And I've played uh the big Pin Dragon campaign, and I like, well, I like what the mechanics do. Uh and that's what gets me into everything else there. So I can't even say you can take those mechanics and stick them on something else, and I will follow them over there, right? I think for me, I think there's too much uh hype, too much fanboy, too much, too much, too much, too much. Uh and I just I can't get into it. I bounce off of it. And that's me. I'm I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it. Uh it's me. I just can't, I can't digest it. I can't, I can't do it. Um yeah, and that's it's it's in that okra basket for me. I don't like okra either. Uh and I've tried it on it, I just can't do it. So uh And I usually have to send it. I'm like, yeah, I'm not saying it's bad. I'm just saying, you know, some people love okra, some people don't. I don't like okra. I'm in that camp.

SPEAKER_00:

So see, I'm just amused because I love okra and king Arthur.

SPEAKER_01:

See, now don't have to do a poll. How many people like okra? Do you also like King Arthur? There might be some correlation here. Yes. Now we're doing science. Umber is the other thing. I'm hyped uh and excited uh for Inctober. Every year I am. It's the whole month of October, and there's a whole prompt list, and I usually just work through the prompt list. Um this year, what I have done is I've taken this is a thing that's been living in my head for a while. If I was a comic book artist, I would want to do a graphic novel. Uh Winnie the Pooh is now public domain.

SPEAKER_00:

That's right.

SPEAKER_01:

Uh, right. I would want to take the 100-acre woods and the public domain characters, and I would want to move them forward in time uh to a place called 1000 Corporate Woods, right?

SPEAKER_03:

Oh no.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, yeah. Uh after the apocalypse, all the humans are gone. Yeah. It's just these characters in the mess that we've made that's left over. Um they would be different, I think, and that I think is the draw of the graphic novel is what has all that time, as we're reintroduced to these characters, done to them. So it wouldn't be Piglet as we grew up with, right? It would be some after the apocalypse version of Piglet. Um and I don't know what that is, right? That that is the big idea. What I'm doing this month for Inctober is I'm just drawing those, what that what I think that looks like following the prompts. And so uh pretending I'm a comic book artist for 30 days. That's what I'm doing.

SPEAKER_00:

I mean, are you sure you shouldn't make that? Because that sounds kind of good again.

SPEAKER_01:

So the other thing I like, this is the software engineer in me, is small-scale testing. I say that a lot. And so after 30 days, and I have 30 images, 30 sketches, 30 ink drawings, I might review and take a look and figure out what I want to do next, right? Or do I just close the book and I'm good. I got it out of my system, right? And I don't I won't know till November.

SPEAKER_00:

That's a really cool experiment.

SPEAKER_01:

So, yeah, no, I'm excited. I'm I'm yeah, I'm excited about. So And I get to play, like I said, I'm I am not kidding. I have a box, regular size cardboard box full of art supplies uh that I've collected. Uh, some of them are still good, some of them probably are not. Uh, but it gives me a chance to play around with those things I would not ordinarily use. And so uh so I'm doing that. I've got a sketchbook and I'm trying different pencils, I'm working with different inks, different nibs, different pens, uh, as I work through this month.

SPEAKER_00:

Let's see.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah. So it's fun. I'm enjoying it.

SPEAKER_00:

That's fantastic.

SPEAKER_01:

Ask one forward. Uh so I have a question if you don't have one. I do not. Okay, so ask one forward. Uh, for the people listening, what we will do toward the end of every episode, uh, we'll ask a guest a question left by previous guests. We'll talk about that answer. We'll we'll we'll have a conversation about it. But then that guest gets to ask a question forward to the next guest, and they won't know who that guest is. Sometimes we don't know who that guest is yet. Um, and then we'll repeat that process. Um, we're kind of cheating here because we don't have a first guest yet, and we know who the next guest, we know who the next guest is. So I will ask you, Sarah, a question. Um, and if this is a hard question, you can ex card it. I have a backup question.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

All right. Um your early creative years, uh, were your family supportive of your creative stuff? I know. It's yeah, and it's personal for me, so I'm I'm asking from a personal place. Um but again, if it's a hard question and you want X card it, I'm totally cool with that.

SPEAKER_00:

I think I will answer it and we can decide if we want to keep the answer in.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, I'm perfectly good with that.

SPEAKER_00:

Um, so it it is a mixed bag.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

In that um I showed, so if my family supported my creative creativity, the general answer is oh fuck no.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Um generally speaking, they did they did some things. Um they bought me art supplies. They whenever I was um 12 or 13, a um a teacher, I think, rather emphatically insisted to my family until they enrolled me in a college-level drawing class.

SPEAKER_02:

Wow. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00:

Um, so before I went to high school, I was taking college-level drawing classes. And so whenever I was in high school and applying for colleges, I got to apply to like the Art Institute of Chicago and and places like that. So on one track of this, the answer is yes, because I was given access to art supplies and um drawing classes and to apply to art school. Uh the other, but the main answer is no, because even with that, it was a continuous constant source of conflict. That's right. Um and I am currently not I am currently estranged from my family. Um, in part because they have never been able to accept who I am. And part of who I am is a creative artistic person.

SPEAKER_02:

Right.

SPEAKER_00:

Um my uh mother took me out of college because I wanted an art degree. And a lot of other things happened, including not being able, not being allowed to live with family after that. Uh and it kind of hijacked my life. It it really disrupted my life and my my life plans in such a way that it was like enormously destructive. Um so, although, for example, my mother was there whenever I graduated from art school, that was because I was trying to have a relationship with her, not because she ever supported me going there. Right. Um in fact, whenever I I told her I got accepted to this rather nice school, her response was she would lie to her friends about what my major was. Oh, wow. Oh, that's crazy. So that's a hint. That's a hint of what it was like. Oh, that is crazy. So there is normal, like, I don't want my kid to be a starving artist, and then there is like experience.

SPEAKER_02:

Right.

SPEAKER_00:

Um so yeah, so it it has the constant struggle to be seen as who I am and accepted as who I am, and for my creativity to be accepted as part of that has been a major part of my life. Uh, I can I can happily say though that my husband is incredibly supportive. Uh he is the reason I'm able to do what I'm doing now. He's the reason I was able to go back to school. Um so I have that support now from all the people in my life that it matters.

SPEAKER_02:

Right.

SPEAKER_00:

Um so yeah, so it it at least now it ends happily.

SPEAKER_01:

Right, right, right. Wow. I asked uh um because I got that, I got that question asked to me out of the blue, and I had to sit down and think about it a little bit. Um, I think my uh if I was younger, I would have said no, hell no. Uh let me tell you how right how how crazy right it really is, right? Uh a lot of choices uh I went down. I mean, I ended up in the military, uh, so I would not do what my dad wanted, right? Even though I came to him with a plan to go to art school. Uh his response was that's not a real job. Yeah, I had a plan. I had a I had a plan. I knew he wasn't gonna pay anything to do it. I had figured out how to get everything covered, where I was going to go. I just needed four semesters. Can I just stay here where I'm living at already until I figure out where I'm going to live from here, right? Not staying here forever, right? Just let me stay a couple of months until I figure it out. I got everything else worked out. And he was like, no, that's not a real job. Um, and I ended up in the military. Um that was my choice. Huh?

SPEAKER_00:

That's heartbreaking.

SPEAKER_01:

No, it is. Um, and I wonder, right, uh, I always think about was that I don't want you to be a starving artist. Is that where he was coming from, right? Uh, or was that something else? Um today still, uh, he's he can't access, he can't have conver heart, real open conversations. That's hard for him. We have a relationship today, but that's only because of my stepmom. Um she's been more mom to me than my real mom. That's a whole nother conversation. Um, but she's been trying to keep everybody together, and she's done an awesome job with that. If not for her, I may not have had a relationship with my dad today. Um as it stands today, there are times where we get together, everyone else leaves, and it's just me and him in the room. And I feel like we're two strange men, two strangers, trying to figure out how we how we what do we right? We we've worn out all the surface conversation. What do we talk about next, right? Uh but we keep showing up and we're trying to work it out, but it's hard, right? Because we we got a lot of time that we missed. And he doesn't understand who I am, uh, where I'm coming from and how I'm different than he is. Um and that that's still I know he still struggles with a lot of that. Um I don't know that uh if I say it's the starving artist, that's where he's coming from. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt. But I think that may not be true. I think he had an expectation, and I didn't meet that expectation uh the way he wanted. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00:

That does make sense.

SPEAKER_01:

So um, and then that makes me wonder, like the rest of this podcast, uh, what are other creatives doing? How'd they get here, right? Did they have a lot of support uh in their younger years? And that's that's where I was coming from with that with that question.

SPEAKER_00:

I did see people at art school who had a great deal of support, and I could see how radically different their lives were from mine.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And I can say that now my kiddo has access to all of the creative materials that he wants. Right. And he is fully supported in that. In fact, he goes uh after school for art club two days a week.

SPEAKER_01:

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_00:

Um, and we've tried music classes, we've brought it like we're trying to help him and support him in finding out what his thing is, what he wants to do. And that is, of course, partially informed by my opposite experience. Right. So that he can have that loving support to figure out, even if he is going to be a starving artist, right? To figure out, you know, what he what it is he wants to do and who he wants to be. Because to me that's a big part of parenting.

SPEAKER_02:

I agree.

SPEAKER_00:

I figured. I thought it was a good question. That's why I answered it.

SPEAKER_01:

Thank you. So uh we could actually no, we don't have to do it now. Uh I was gonna say we could figure out what we're gonna pass on to the bakers. Uh we can edit it back in later if you don't have a question.

SPEAKER_00:

Um we can we have a social media one.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, so we can refine that. What I'd like to do if we can, yeah, if we can refine it, I'd like to leave it in here so we can kind of pass the question forward in here, right? No, we don't have to. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, because we will ask the bakers to leave a question. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

I can spell. I'm a professional writer.

SPEAKER_01:

Me, I just dump it all out and then I go back. If uh in Google Docs, it will do the spell correct, and I let it do that. Uh, because then I don't have to edit and write at the same time. I'm bad at that, and that slows me down. Uh, but if I can just dump it all out, no matter how the spelling is, uh, I can get it all out. Um, and then I'll let uh Google Docs do the spell checking.

SPEAKER_00:

I do not have an English degree. I would never claim to have that expertise of editing, but I did edit a blog for a while, and so it's like I can't if I see a really bad spelling error, I just can't leave it. Or or like grammar or anything.

SPEAKER_01:

I just you talked about sending your stuff off to editing, and I do that too. I I've done everything except art. I've done a little bit of art in this in in lifted, but all editing I send out because I don't know what I don't know. Uh, but I know how I sound, and so uh I like my current editor, uh, the one prior, we would bump heads because they would change the tone of uh and I get the word select. Yeah, it wasn't I'm like, yeah, I don't talk like that. And I understand writing and talking are two different things, and mine doesn't have to be one-the-one, uh, but you're you're selecting things that I wouldn't use, uh, or you're changing the tone. Uh and some words, right? I'm I meant that word. I know that's the wrong word. And they would alter that. I'm like, no, I meant it that way, right? And if folks don't know, they'll go look it up. Don't don't short them, right? Uh they know they don't know what that is, and they've got tools to go find out, or folks won't care and they'll leave it alone. They'll just make an assumption, and that's fine too.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, no, leaving tone and leaving the individual voice is like the most important thing that good editors do.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. So I like my current editor, though. She's way better than the prior one.

SPEAKER_00:

So we'll have to talk about editors sometime.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. So my my thought is we'll do this one, we'll bring the bakers on. Um, and then my thought is we can do another one-on-one after the bakers, and then two guests, uh, and then we do the sixth episode where we wrap up again. Uh or we can do the bakers and the guest, and then one-on-one, right? Because I think we're doing six. Uh, but somewhere in there, I think it's two guests back to back, and then we'll do one more. Uh, and then at the end, we can figure out if we want to do another season or not.

SPEAKER_00:

I mean, I can um so um do you have any thoughts to make that question better?

SPEAKER_01:

No, I think that's I think that's good because what I uh when I see this, I think that turns in, I think they will answer that question, and then I think that turns into how they parent as game designers, right? Um how do those blend or bleed into each other? Uh and I think that's a good conversation too.

SPEAKER_00:

Then uh it looks like the question I'm gonna leave for the bakers, as we know they're our next guest, is what is your policy regarding social media, especially in regards to kids and privacy and creativity? Thank you so much for listening. Please comment and let us know what you thought of the episode or your thoughts on creativity and making games. You can find us at the following. You can see my work at scorcha.net or support my work at patreon.com slash Sarah Doom.

SPEAKER_01:

And you can catch me at playfearless on Substack or Magizero.com all letters. And we will catch you in the next one.