VCE Text Analysis: Old/New World Part 1: Introduction & Immigration

Dr Schoor and Mr Woon discuss immigration and the significance of Peter Skryznecki's work for VCE English. 

Transcript

spk_1:   0:03
Okay, e twelves. This's your next set of podcasts on our creative ticks off All New World by Peter says Thank you. This is the first episode, and today I'm joined by one of our poetry gurus of Dr Shaw.

spk_0:   0:20
Good morning, Mr Woon. And how exciting. I love poetry.

spk_1:   0:25
Yes, it affect thes Students have done poetry since the one united I think about it, the Australian collection of poetry and then some of them, didn't you? 10 last year they had the war poems and then this year, but back Teo, an Australian.

spk_0:   0:41
I think that they are very well prepared, I think also, it's interesting that although our sure Netscape is an Australian poet, he is clearly a migrant poet, and that is one of the reasons that we've chosen this collection. Right, Mr Wynn, That's

spk_1:   0:57
exactly right. I think it's because you know most of most of our students and we'll have a culture background that comes from another place. And so we thought this would be really good for their creative to Connor, hopefully relate to his experience, even though he does, even though it's Polish. I think there's some things that are common when people come to a new country.

spk_0:   1:17
I think that that idea off the old new world moving from the Old World into the New World. But because she Annette skis separates in, his title separates the old and the New World not with a hyphen but with a slash. There's that really sense ofthe moving between the Old World and the New World. It's not simply that you make the transition and you've gone from the Old World to the New World. You move between the two. The journey is constant and it's non linear on. I think that anyone who has had a migrant experience or who knows someone whose parents perhaps have a migrant experience, they're going to be familiar with that. But I often say in my classes to Mr Wound that everybody, it nacelle has left the old world of their previous school to come into the new world of nacelle. So, while shown its key is talking about a migrant transition, in fact, all of us make a Siri's of transitions in our lives. And so while the migrant experience might be a familiar one for a lot of our students, all of our students exist in the new world of nacelle and are you? 12 students are going to move from the old world of school into the new World off whatever tertiary study or post school experience that they have, they will be involved in looking back and in looking forward. We always love to see the nacelle alumni come and visit us as they go back into the old world before again going returning to a new context. So I think there is a feature of experience. Really?

spk_1:   2:59
Yeah, I think I really like that at the notion of a slash. It's not called Old and New World. You know where there's a distinct distinct between what's happened to pass, and then now, because there's slash often associated with also old or new world. And I think that tension between those two and I've talked to my client's yesterday in the last five minutes of my class. Andi, I brought in my artefact too important a teaching artefact. Show them a photo of my first day of teaching my thirsty seven class on my journey. Now that no So I said, in fact, that's the old and the New World. The old world of waking at a school in the country, andan in my new world or working out Not so, but also my old world of interacting with students on my new well, contractually them. Virtually when I said that there's actually a credit piece that can be written, their responses was Mickey as well, because that I think that idea of transition and I think he expose that as well weigh some of his poems that relate to death and moving on. You know that even after passing there is that is somewhat metaphysical New world. But it's still a new well that he is speculating.

spk_0:   4:07
I definitely think so on. In fact, I'm going to talk to my class today about bringing in their artefact next week. So I'm wearing my artefact today, the one I'm going to talk about, which is my gold bracelet that my grandmother gave me when I turned 21 some several years ago, and she is now long dead. But every time I put on the bracelet, I can hear her voice, and I remember the interaction that I had with her. And so the artefact draws me into the old world. But also pulls me into a new world where I look again at my bracelet and I think that my daughter is now 14 and when she's 21 I will give her this bracelet and we see that sort of continuum of experience that, as you say, she knit. Ski writes about quite a lot in his poetry, the way memory effects, identity, the way the past affects the present and the

spk_1:   5:08
future. Yeah, I think I think you should be very aware of that. And I think it's not just physical objects. Obviously there's problems like, I think, my Father's hammer. But was it landscape evoking a sense ofthe place belonging and transition? The allergies within the poem Hey, draws on mythology. Sometimes he draws on a CZ well of Australia s Oh, there's a whole range of things here that I think is the key really is inspired by throughout this life that I think affects him as an individual that he wants to write about, which is why I think this is such a great text of the creative because you can personalise it on, really got an exploration off things that are significant to you and I think that's for May. In the past few years, that has been very successful in terms. Are students succeeding

spk_0:   6:00
absolutely there? I think that the creative authenticity of voice is a critical feature, and absolutely the most effective creative responses that we've read have been about students who have engaged with that notion ofthe transition as they see it. Intranet skis, poetry. But then, as it relates to their own lives and their own lived experience,

spk_1:   6:31
that's right. So I think with that note, let's get Teo some of the immigration from the poles. Yeah, going deeper. Look now for this one we've got. I want you to keep in mind the question from last year, which is because you can write on this text for the exam. Andi, it's his poetry was likely described his world as one of emerging cultures and put that in the back of our mind. That's from the 2019 English exam. Onda, for sure, and I will be talking is to be a longer episode. This is gonna be talking both about the migrant experience and family, and I would like to know they haven't explicitly asked a family question. Yeah, so there's me hedging my bets. But don't take my word for gospel.

spk_0:   7:15
No, they haven't asked a family question, and it's odd because quite a lot of these poems are very family oriented on DH. So, yes, I would be unsurprised if we saw a family question coming up, though. Ah, lot of the ideas that jetski raises are very, very interconnected, so family and memory and identity and location are all very related to each other. So I think that one of the things I find an advantage for the Children who are writing on Jeanette Ski in the exam for Section A is very, very limited. Actually, the questions that you can ask you can really only ask extremely. It's extremely limited number of questions because of the nature ofthe the poetry collection.

spk_1:   8:10
Yeah, so none of the homes actually set fast. So that's what the questions they can ask have to be broad. Our compass on those ideas with students sort of succeeded writing on them. Is that right?

spk_0:   8:27
That is absolutely the case. That's one of the reasons Mr Wound and I have started this discussion by talking about the title because the title is common too thie entire poetry collection, obviously. But because none of the palms are set, become must right questions that can be addressed by any selection ofthe poems. We have chosen palms for you that address all the major themes we hope. What not we hope we know on DH. Having done quite a few of the revision sessions, Mr Wound, in the lead up to the exam of the last several years, we have been quite adept at predicting the questions that are going to bay raised because, as I say, they have to be quite broad in order to allow all Children to succeed. One of the things that I also talk about in my class, then, is the dedication, because the dedication is also common to the whole collection On DSO. The dedication is for Kate, Judy, Andrew and Anna, who once you've done a little bit of research and we do expect that you will, that's those are the names ofthe wife and his Children. But Anna is also the name off his mother, Mr Wayne or Grandmother on DH. He then has a Polish phrase, which I am not going to attempt to say here you're welcome, but it translates as my magnificent or my marvellous family. And so that idea ofthe family being both your parents but also your Children. The continuity of experience there is encompassed in that dedication, and I think that's worth considering. When you are thinking about your creative response, Who are you writing it for? I know that at this stage you are the Children rather than that you have Children, but you want to think, What is it that you might want to tell your descendants to tell your Children and your Children's Children, about your parents and your grandparent's? Because you will one day be a bridge yourselves between the past and the future?

spk_1:   10:52
I think they have been exploring their education in their life. Up to now, you know, he does reflect on those things as a child, obviously isn't reading writing as a child. So I think that is also something make you look. And this is the last year of this text. I think, wait an explicit question on family so far, and it's a dedication. The front. I think it's probably somewhat a good bet. You should still look at all the polls holistically that family is probably going to come up now. We have selected the poems to study it class by no means to be Are they the ones? The only ones that he could pick? There's heaps and heaps of homes. And you know, you really should explore things that I appeal to you

spk_0:   11:38
absolutely. And we will run revision sessions closer to the exam about Winnitzki. Where for the Children who plan to write Entre nous skin every year we have had a certain number of Children who do on DH, we expand that list a little Mr Wound from, I think, 12 to 16 Poland's.

spk_1:   11:57
You know, If much ado wasn't for you, then I think you might be the way to go. Excellent. All right, let's get into 1st 1 which is part of their holiday homework, will cover anyway. Immigrants, a central station, which some Page 30

spk_0:   12:12
four. I want to remind the Children that we gave them that acronym, which isn't mine. It's an acronym given to me by a colleague. It's a very, very useful one. It's this voice, imagery, style, structure, symbol and sound, which is something that you should be familiar with from commencement, I think, Mr Wound, but certainly it's something that we will go through in class. But when I look at immigrants, its interest station, one of the first things I do is look at the structure of the poem on DH. So I look at how it's divided into Stan's is. But the standards are not strictly regular. There is a longer stands or at the start and at the end, but then to shorter stands is in the middle on. I think that that structure reflects a kind off insecurity on DH uncertainty that is experienced by the figures in the poem that the structures in their lives are have been eroded by the experience of migration. And so the expectation off the reader to read a syriza, perhaps regular stances, is challenged here. As the stands has changed in length,

spk_1:   13:31
E might reflect the experience of waiting in line. Awaiting for something is a long experience on. Then you are suddenly distracted by another thought, which is the shorter stands is and then comes back to that long, waiting when the train on the platform, when they're all waiting again, realising their reality, I think it kind of reflects sort of the thought process. You go shoot when you're waiting in a long line.

spk_0:   13:57
I think that's absolutely true. And that speaks to the idea of voice. Because although this palm is written in 1/3 person by 1/3 person omniscient narrator, we nevertheless are. No, it's second person because if we look at stanza two time, waited anxiously with us. So I beg you, pardon its first person plural, and it's important to consider. Then who is speaking? So although the poem appears to describe immigrants at Central Station, in fact, what we hereby stands or to our the immigrants speaking or one immigrants speaking for all on, I think this is one of the ways in which we see the strength of shown its key as a poet. That there is a really sense off time passing but also timelessness in this

spk_1:   14:54
port and is significant that asses mainly used in the second stands are It's not. It's not just double cheque that yet it's not throughout. The poem, in fact, is only in that second stands way.

spk_0:   15:07
See it? Sorry we see it in the star in stands 12 way s O there, but there's not a lot of sort of collective personal pronouns, so there is a sense off an eroded identity, and I think it's important for me. It's important that the identity is collective, that what defines all these people is that they are immigrants. It's not that one of them is called Peter, and one of them is called Anna. They've lost their individual identities, and they have simply become immigrants at Central Station.

spk_1:   15:49
And for May 1 of the things that stand out is there. They're violent imagery in the third stands are off red dropped agility and cutting us off, which I think the other one with the cattle. Where's that line going? In the 2nd 1 Cattle red dropped agility and cutting us off on DH. That's sense that they've become a sze, Yu said, unidentified and a mass body sort of. I'm not being recognised individual, but really stand out to me in this poll.

spk_0:   16:21
I think that's definitely true. I think that the Children who studied Wilfred Owen will be very familiar with that. It's the end of stands to like cattle bought for slaughter, which is very, very similar to that line in the Wilfred on poem. What Passing bells. Those that die like cattle that idea off the helplessness ofthe herd to defy any any any attack on DH? Absolutely. Jetski by 1951 which is when this palm is from what this prom is describing. Jetski will know the Wilfred Online passing bells for those that die like cattle. And I think that that makes a clear reference, if not to. Wilfred owns poem to that image that Owen is using, and more broadly for me. I think that that line in combination with the like a guillotine absolutely evokes World War Two Holocaust images where Jewish people were herded like cattle onto trains. Mr. Wayne,

spk_1:   17:41
some other things that I think I find interesting is the watching pigeons that watch them. It's kind of a haunting image to me that you have this premiere picture flock of pigeons sitting there, actually watching them be the other way around. E don't know why a haunting image, but it is for me.

spk_0:   18:02
I definitely think it's a haunting image because that whole stands air, in fact, is quite shocking. Stands a three family stood with blankets and packed cases, keeping Children by their sides because for May, at that point you realise that this poem is silent and normally anyone who's been on a train with small Children, small Children don't aren't silent when they're waiting. They're running around that making noise. They're chasing the pigeons. But the silence and the stillness off the Children, which is emphasised by that haunting image of the watching pigeons watch at that that watched them creates a really sense off the the unusual nous and for May tipping into horror off the the deer Assen ated, which means uprooted the deer Assen ated Children who are so frightened that instead of running towards the birds, they stand still with their parents

spk_1:   19:17
s o. The last two lines with this Palmer, while time ran ahead are long listening tracts of steel. Is that a hopeful? And at this poem, or is it still kind of a bleak future that time that they don't know when time is going to enter them? E.

spk_0:   19:34
I think bleak is a really interesting adjective, and one of the things that is really useful in writing about poetry is collecting a collecting vocabulary that is an accurate presentation off the tone of a poem. So Mr Winters used the word haunting. He has used the word bleak. I used your ass in eight. You will need to look that up. These are all words you should only use once in your essay, once each in your essay. But they are really useful words for you, Mr Wynn. I think that that that those final two lines are ambiguous rather than necessarily bleak. Like, I think that while certainly there is a kind of apprehension to it, while time ran ahead. If they are in a slipstream off time, they don't seem to be able to control themselves. Control what happens to them? So time is running ahead with them and they have to be on these tracks. But I think that the glistening tracks can be read, and this is the power of poetry. It's not one thing or the other. I think it's both. I think you've got the glistening tracks, which sometimes is evocative off glistening with sort of blood and tears, but also glistening as in shimmering and shining with a possibility off a positive future. So I think it's both,

spk_1:   21:06
Yeah, I think I think well discussed. A CZ well, we go back to the exam question last year described his world is what emerging cultures and things question isn't asking for necessarily positive, qualitative emerging cultures. Because, in fact, I think there's a merging of culture. We are in terms of being the faces, nous and the the identification of them is migrants on DH, their cultures. Waiting at the station is an interesting argument could be made.

spk_0:   21:35
I certainly think so. I think if you look at stanza won the final two lines of stands or one with that try Colon, the silence, the cold, the benevolence of empty streets and try. Colden is a group of three. So you've got the silence that called the benevolence of empty streets. And so you've got the 1st 2 are emphatically kind of frightening with the silence and the cold. But then you have this benevolence ofthe empty streets, so there's no one staring at them. There's no one mocking the migrants and again for me that try Colin like the final two lines of the poem contribute to a sense off apprehension, and I sigh apprehension rather than fear because they don't know what's going to happen in the future. But nevertheless there is a hopefulness because of that benevolence because of the glistening

spk_1:   22:34
well, let's move on now into a related problem, I think Migrant Hostel, which some hate 61 you know, because my God hostile parts 1949 9 to 1951. What is parks a place without my vehicle? Stallion's,

spk_0:   22:52
I suspect. So. I think that if the Children are going to write on this poem, and I think that it's a really, really useful poem, though I don't think we put it on our list. Did me? Mister, We

spk_1:   23:02
know that we teach it in United for the past two years has been on their exam, and it's quite a interesting pole, which is why I brought it up, because I think it's it speaks a lot to having the experience of immigrants, that central station.

spk_0:   23:16
I definitely think so on. I think that students would do well to look up the conditions off post World War two migrants in Australia so that they need to know where parks is. They need to understand how migrants were welcomed to the country. They need to know about that place in New South Wales that migrants often went. Teo, what's it called? Mr Ouimet? Begins with the

spk_1:   23:43
well. I have no idea.

spk_0:   23:44
No, no. I will ask some child to look it up for me because this is the sort of thing that's going to drive me crazy, where a lot of migrants went in holding centres in rural New South Wales. But this absolutely eyes a poem that rewards some awareness of cultural context. Again, looking at the structure of the palm, although it is again erected, the standards are irregular to me, they are increasingly regular compared with immigrants at Central Station on, we do see in that final standard that it is longer. And so there is a sense in which, in the poem, although it has the ambiguity there again, ambiguity means mixed for unclear that we had only begun alway were dying. Although it ends with the dying, there is nevertheless a sense off possibility here, though if you remember the question, Mr Woon has raised the idea of merging cultures here. You want to think about what is beginning the new life in the new world and what is dying as a consequence of that. The old identity, the old life, the old self and what the merging of cultures requires on individuals what it costs, as well as what the potential benefits are.

spk_1:   25:15
Yeah, I quite like this pong for the human Sharee that it evokes. The nationality started out about how it's technically like a homing pigeon in the second stanza there that even though in the new country they will still gets clubbed together, this news sort of in space, on removed and again using the word pigeon again. Pigeons as a bird

spk_0:   25:40
stands a three. We live like birds of passage

spk_1:   25:44
on birds on my greater in creatures. I kind of like that use ofthe animal symbolism there for him in this phone. Andi again. You know, for me there's something a bit. Where is it? The barrier that sell like a finger pointing a reprimand or shame for me kind of speaks similar to the guillotine, maybe not as harsh, but that idea off being told how to move, where to move and being herded a means to that imagery bears still kind of a charism is Polish

spk_0:   26:18
absolutely one of the things I like about the poem with the nationally nationalities sought each other out instinctively, like homing pigeons like a homing pigeon is that is emphatically what my Dutch grand parents did. They are World War two, post World War two. They were post World War Two migrants, and they came Teo Melbourne and then immediately moved two. Ringwood, where my great grandfather never had to speak English again because of how he just spoke to little old Dutch people on DH. So one of the things that I like about this palm is how accurate it is in the presentation off the migrant experience, you know, should etc. Is absolutely writing about what he knows on. I think that that's one of the things that the Children Khun take in terms ofthe their own creatives that this poetry raids authentically because shown its key is, ah, migrants. As he writes about migrant poetry, they need to write about experiences that are authentic to them. Mr Wayne,

spk_1:   27:31
You hear me? I can Now. That

spk_0:   27:34
was a scary moment

spk_1:   27:35
for myself. You know, that really speaks Tio my parents as well when they first came here and they moved to them. Want South and one Turner and then slowly but surely, when their friends sort of migrating from Malaysia, they overpopulated in want of a nail on south. I found that quite interesting in terms of just big into your grandparents. Such experience?

spk_0:   27:59
Absolutely. When my grand parents were little old Dutch people in Ringwood at the ring would public library. You could get a little old Dutch people books in big print in the Dutch light in the library and then, like the public library in Ringwood because of the number of little old Dutch people there were in Ringwood at that time.

spk_1:   28:20
Yeah, okay, let's come back to the power. I think that says of helplessness is well, comes across in the first stand, for you know, all the comings and goings arrival of newcomers in busloads. No one kept count. I think that that removal that identity kind of echoes here again, this students. I also

spk_0:   28:41
think in this palm again, as with the first poem that we talked about here, there is silence. So although there's a lot of description, nobody thought there's almost no direct speech, and this is one of the things that I'm sure knit Ski does very powerful, Lee So when we get to feel extra Nets Key and Cornelia Voloshin took, they're poems are quite silence except silent except for a moment off direct speech. And that direct speech really shrieks out to us. But in this poem, we here instead to circling to get its bearings, years and place names recognised by accents partitioned off it night by memories of hunger and hate. Although you hear about the accents, you don't hear anyone talk king on, I think that also speaks to the migrant experience. When you come to a new country and you don't speak the language on DSO, you can't you can't speak. And that silence, which is referred to in in more directly in immigrants at Central Station Where What was that? The benevolent silence off? Oh, no, Mr Wayne. I've lost it. Where is it? Page 34 where you've got the silence, the cold, the benevolence of empty streets. The silence is quite crushing and dehumanising. I

spk_1:   30:11
think one of the things that I different moving one from this infestation. But even though there's no voices, there's a sense that it is a bit more. There's it's busy, and it is noisy like you said that even though but the lack of direct quotations has said before, I know you can't really understand what each other people are saying, but I think is this. Does this poem have less ambiguity? Toe, and has this been more hopeful at the end, lives that had only begun or were dying?

spk_0:   30:44
My feeling is yes, does I think it is more hopeful. I think that it speaks to kind of getting used to a new place because if we look at stands of three for up for two years we lived like birds of passage, always sensing a change in the weather, unaware of the season, whose track we would follow the idea that they are trying to figure out the new place and at first they don't understand the weather and the same unaware of the seasons. But there is a track we would follow sow. There is a sense ofthe certainty there that they are going to follow a track and it will be a new track that has only begun and it will require some dying. And so you have the ambivalence. But I do feel that it is more hopeful Yet That's my feeling

spk_1:   31:39
on DSO before we move on. Is there anything else you want? Teo Migrant Hostel.

spk_0:   31:45
I think the first line for me is important to know. One kept count of all the comings and goings. And so there is a sense off. Although they are still trapped and you do have the finger that rises and falls and sort of keeps them together. There is a some degree of increased freedom there with no one kept count. They aren't being observed quite so harshly.

spk_1:   32:12
Yeah, All right, so now let's move on to the next one, which is ancestors on page 41. Andi, I find this very interesting poll.

spk_0:   32:26
I love this poem. It is, I think, extremely difficult. But I really, really like it because it is so open, Teo. New experiences. And that's because off the number of questions, innit? So stands a one stanza, two stands of three standard force, but not centre for Standard five stands. A six are all questions, and I think that that's one of the things that I find really interesting about it. I think that it's a poem that is called ancestors and so you anticipate that It's going to be about the ancestors that off the old world, you know, Polish ancestors from back in the old country, and you can certainly read it like that. But his lack of certainty about the ancestors if votes for me, what you were talking about earlier, an engagement with indigenous culture in the New World in Australia. Now I know that that is not a reading that everybody in the staff room agrees with, and I'm fine with that. But it's something that I am interested in. Its one of very few poems where he actually talks about or might be talking about on Australian and Australia, a recognition of Australia's long, long indigenous.

spk_1:   34:10
Yeah, because we've talked about this in the staff from about It's the landscape references and actually kind of liked that idea or loose of emotion that he's talking about the indigenous people off on the land that he's occupying.

spk_0:   34:25
Yeah, because for May, the stances that are not questions behind them that's behind the ancestors are mountains, the sound of a river, a moonlit plane of grasses and sand, and then the final stanza from across the plain with sand and grass is never stir the wind tastes of blood. I mean, for May. It seems very possible that this is an Australian landscape. It sounds quite Australian to me.

spk_1:   34:57
You know, there's something a bit standing shoulder to shoulder, this sense of community and maybe bearded faces, men standing shoulder to shoulder. You know, it seems to me a bit of a racist depiction of Trump ballot being tribe. Yes, absolutely. You may have convinced me because I think I was one of the States before, but they whispered in the darkness, You know, I think that's sad to be threatened by the Guinness people could be in there circling around them as well again that that idea ofthe tribe and wanting in on the on the people and we don't you know, Australia in 19 when this is written or this Chronicles was in 1975. Australia's attitude towards the digit Australia's is still quite horrific.

spk_0:   35:49
It is, but I think that if you look at it, I'm stands a three. Where do they point to from what circle around you to what started their footprints lead. There is a really there is a least a curiosity about if you read those as indigenous ahs, the ancestors as indigenous as a curiosity about indigenous culture and also for me in that stanza, a recognition that mainstream Australia and migrant Australia does not know, does not understand. Indigenous culture doesn't know what star they follow now that has a fairly powerful evocation off the star of Bethlehem and the star that the wise men followed to the manger to find the Christ child. But these footprints follow a different unknown star, a star from another culture. For me, that is a recognition that indigenous culture exists in a different a different cultural context, one that is strange and foreign and unknown on I think that from across the Plains that final stands. I love it West sand and grass is never stir. It's very eerie landscape areas, another good word for you. It's an eerie landscape, because it seems kind of for me, like a dream Time Land State. Mr Win. You know where that rascal, where there is no movement but the wind tastes of blood. And again, I find it very hard to read this palm without recognising that there is an engagement with the crimes of Colonial and also, in its way migrant Australia in terms ofthe an IRR Asia of indigenous culture.

spk_1:   37:54
So if we were to go on a different lens and looked at it from that merging of cultural experiences, how does the Hatter's answers just tie in? So, you know, for me, I think often I talk about even though this is probably not as serious army. But I was picturing that Mullah when they go Teo on temple and all the answers just come out from the tombstone for me as, ah sample as a child of Asian migrants, Chinese migrants. For me, the idea of ancestors. I guess that's the way I think about it. Is that idea of your relatives, too, Watching over you? You don't know who they are, but their weight off the expectations of you are on your shoulders. Come into this new country, Andi, you can't really respond. And you know that in terms of wind tastes of blood, I think for me it's that idea of sacrifice and on about sacrifice could come in the form of death, you know, especially thinking whistled more to how many people had to die for you to kind of come to this next point in your on DH sacrifices. And I think that's the same when any migrant family makes a choice to kind of, um moved from one country to another, and I think that's for me. What this poem, sometimes kind of speaks to me about is, is that idea of that collective ancestors that I have no idea about. But I get told a lot about by my parents and other relatives.

spk_0:   39:17
I think that that's a really interesting way to read the palm as well. And I think that the poem can be about both. And that is again, one of the things that I like about poetry, its capacity to have multiple meanings at the same time. Because I think that one of the things in terms of that reading to observe again is that they don't speak these migrant, these ancestors, and you see that in stanza one Teo instead. Five. Why do they never speak? How long is there wait to bay? They clearly want something off the narrator, but they can't or won't articulate what that is on. I think for anybody who speaks in a language that their parents are not comfortable in or who speak in a language that their ancestors did not speak so again to consider my Dutch migrant past. I don't speak Dutch at all, and so if my aunt, my Dutch ancestors are watching me, they can't speak to me because I don't speak that language. You know, my aunt has a whole Siri's off recipe books that were her grandmother's. But they're all in Dutch so that when my aren't leaves them to someone, she won't be able to leave them to us because they do not in the lines of this palms, speak to my sister or to me because we don't speak that language on. I think that if you talk, then about the merging of cultures, Mr Woon, we talk about the difficulty off merging cultures of what is lost emerging cultures. And I think that that's one of the things that can be quite heart breaking for you for migrants. As they watched their Children and grandchildren grow up, I know that my grandfather found it very, very upsetting that my sister and I didn't speak

spk_1:   41:21
Dutch, and I

spk_0:   41:23
think that if you look at the second last stands are your tongue dry as caked mud. That idea off trying to be able to speak but not being able to speak seems to be part of this pond, too.

spk_1:   41:39
And I think that notion of language that Dr Detectors might and we see that later on, in translated to Polish Onda, also in Phillips heiress Nikki, which we'll talk about it later. Now this podcast has now gone for 50 minutes. So we'll probably pause here and then resume on the next one. I wish. Then looks, I think answer it is a good bridging pollen to then talk about. I just think his family experience.

spk_0:   42:07
All right. I think this has been great. Mr Wounds. See how much fun poetry is Everybody?

spk_1:   42:13
Yes. You know, there's a great article in the Atlantic about why teaching poetry. I went through yesterday with analysing argument with my class on DH. I think it is. It has convinced me that poultry should be at every year level all the time,

spk_0:   42:28
Mr. Wound, poetry is at every year level all the time in our school?

spk_1:   42:34
Yes, most of the time, accepting you 10. Some of them don't have

spk_0:   42:38
that. I'm working on that.

spk_1:   42:40
Okay? We'll pause here and then we'll resume recording the next one