Alaskan born Dr. Markie Twist an award-winning sexuality educator, sexologist, relationship therapist, author, and international speaker. Dr. Markie is co-author of the books, The Internet Family: Technology in Couple and Family Relationships, The Couple and Family Technology Framework: Intimate Relationships in a Digital Age. I caught up with Markie in this episode and discussed the multifaceted ways in which technology impacts our relationships today, and got her to explain the term Digisexuality.
Alaskan born Dr. Markie Twist an award-winning sexuality educator, sexologist, relationship therapist, author, and international speaker. Dr. Markie is co-author of the books, The Internet Family: Technology in Couple and Family Relationships, The Couple and Family Technology Framework: Intimate Relationships in a Digital Age. I caught up with Markie in this episode and discussed the multifaceted ways in which technology impacts our relationships today, and got her to explain the term Digisexuality.
Hi there and welcome to my podcast show. In this episode, I get to speak with Alaskan born Dr. Makie twist, a licenced Marriage and Family Therapist and mental health counsellor. She's also co author of the books, "The Internet Family, Technology In Couples & Family Relationships". "The Couple & Family Technology Framework, Intimate Relationships In A Digital Age". We got to discuss the term Digisexuality and the impact that digital technologies are having an intimate relationships in today's digital world.
Dr Markie Twist :
So, I'm originally from Houston, Alaska, which is a small town, it's a village on the road system in Alaska, 75 miles north of Anchorage. There was only 700 people and so it was very isolated. And, and what that meant was, when technology like the internet came around, it connected people in a way that was never really possible in that state before. So technology where I grew up was always seen as, as a means of connection. And as a way to actually know that you weren't alone. Because when you're that isolated, you know, it's hard. It's hard to have connection with other people. So I think because of that growing up experience, I've had really not a high fear of technology, but also not a fast curiosity. So as I got older, I know you mentioned you were an early adopter, I, I really wasn't. I was just kind of like, well use technology when I have to professionally and so when I do this work on Digisexuality, or when my colleagues and I talk about the couple and family technology framework, which is in the book that you reference, "The Internet Family", https://www.amazon.com/Internet-Family-Technology-Couple-Relationships/dp/1138478059, when I'm doing this people are always like, what's your relationship with technology like like you, you must know everything about technology? And I'm like, actually, I've a really professional relationship with technology. And and that's about it. Now having said that, as a Gen Xer or somebody who really grew up in the last generation, where, you know, it was priority email until I went to college, I remember what things were like before the kind of technological revolution we're now in. Also I'm young enough to have a good relationship with technology. And since the start of the technological revolution, so I kind of came at age with technology as an adult, a young adult. So when people are like when I work with clients, when I work with researchers and students, and they're like, what are the problems with technology and how can we handle them and it's so different than any other problem. I'm like, well, really? It's not - it's old wine and a new bottle. It's a matter of thinking about what would that be like without the technology? Or how is this the same as other problems we have. So on the one hand technology does very different things to relationships but on the other hand, it's more of the same. And so that's kind of the lens that I come at it with. In terms of my background I think you know, you know this I'm a licenced marriage and family therapist, a licenced mental health counsellor. I'm a certified sexuality educator, and then my colleague, Kat Hertline, and I started doing research on technology, in family relationships, and then in therapy, relationships. So relationships over a decade ago now, so while you've been doing a lot on the technology side. We've been doing a lot on what is technology's relationship with families and what is family's relationship with technology. So I teach in the University of Wisconsin and there I also have a consulting practice, which mainly at this point is talking with people about technology and sexuality. I don't know if you have any questions about that background, but that's my background.
So I would say I'm, I'm a relationship expert first. And then I just happen to know some stuff about technology. Because I've been doing this research, you know, for over a decade. But if you asked me if I can like code, or if I know anything about like Cisco, or if I know anything about Fortran, no, I really don't know anything about that. But I do know that people - I know about that. And it does affect them in their relationships, right? Like anything else. It's like another language. Where does this put us now? Well, about two or three years ago, my colleague Neil MacArthur, https://twitter.com/morallust who's based out of the University of Manitoba, and he's an Ethics philosopher, that's his main background came to me and said, 'You know, I think there will be a new or there is a new sexual identity emerging around technology'. And at first I was like well, 'you know, maybe, I guess maybe, but but maybe that's just a kink or fetish, right? That could just be something in that area'. And he was like, 'No, I really think this is something different than that. Because that's about the kink or the fetish. It isn't about actually having a relationship with technology'. And I was like, 'Okay, well, I definitely believe people have relationships with technology. So maybe you're right'. So what we did then we were the guest editors for the Journal of Sexual Relationship Therapy for a whole issue on sex tech, like sex and technology, and this was in 2017. And that journal is based out of the UK so it's actually based out of London and England, I would say, in some ways, is more cautious about social media than the United States. So, so it's kind of interesting that they approached us and wanted us to do this issue. Because Canada and the US I think has a different a little bit different relationship, at least in terms of social media than England. But I'm happy that they wanted us to do so what we did.
You asked me about the term? Can you please explain what this term Digisexuality?
So about 10 years ago, there was a similar term called Techno-sexual and you might remember that vaguely, but for some reason, either it was too early in the site guys, or just people didn't like that term that ever. And then about the same time if you know anything about Digi Mod Writers - fan fiction writers were writing about ditching sex and calling it Digisexuality about 10 years ago.
So 2017 and the word Digisexual really didn't mean what it means. And what it means now is a person whose preferred form of sexual experiences and relating is via immersive technologies, which need not involve a human partner. Neil and I use this term in 2017 in our journal article, and then it became very popularised after that so now, very many people are are referring to the set themselves this way. There are t-shirts that are about Digisexual rights that you can buy. One of them says 'Digisexual rights or Human rights'. There are coffee mugs, there is even a symbol that someone in Russia made. I mean it is out of control. And really what we were doing when we wrote about this was looking at the literature and looking at the research. And we identified two waves of Digisexuality. And the first wave is this. We're in it right now. And we have been for a while. So most people who have digital capability and connection are using technology, in their relationships, they are sexting, they're meeting people online, you know, I mean, they're going on Tinder or Grindr, Plenty Of Fish, whatever your your dating app is. They're watching online adult content.....
Most people that chunk of people are doing this they're using sex toys. You know, people are using technology to connect with other humans. Sexually, and that's the first phase of Digisexuality. And I don't think that's debatable and people who are doing this, most of them won't call themselves a Digisexual because they're using the technology to connect with humans. So they're interested in humans technology is a tool. The second way that we're looking at now, and for some people, they're already in it, often times it's tied to needs or privilege. That's the second wave of Digisexuality and what that is the technology has become and will become so immersive that for some people, their sexuality and their identity will no longer be about connecting with humans.
It's about the emerissitivity and the relationship with the technology itself. So when you think about virtual reality based sex, when you think about sex with robots, which are almost to the point where where they're beyond being an adult, they're a robot, right? When you start thinking about this, you see people like the man who married a hologram, you see people who prefer really strongly have an orientation towards the technology itself, and not humans through the technology. And this is the bold that, that we would refer to as Digisexuals some of which they refer to as Digisexual themselves. Honestly, the biggest reason that we started, you know, doing the work in this area is because oftentimes when we see a minority population, whether it be sexuality wise or gender wise, there's a tonne of shame. There's a tonne of stigma. In this case, there's what I've called Digisexual phobia, which is the combination of Technophobia and a erotocentrism, right so I'm afraid of technology. And I also think my way of having sex is the best way of having sex and therefore everybody should have sex this way. Digisexual phobia is so prevalent that Neil and I wanted to get ahead of, and as a therapist and an ethicist. We wanted to get ahead of what we've done to people of, you know, gay lesbian bisexual identities, trans identities, like kink identities, monogamous identities, we wanted to be like, 'Listen, let's not repeat this where we marginalise people who aren't hurting anybody, you know if someone wants to have sex with a robot, okay? I mean, it's a toy and literally, it's not like people freaked out when when vibrators came out, I mean, people thought women were going to stop having sex with men'! To my knowledge that hasn't happened yet. So it's nothing to freak out over right? I mean, but it's this weird like I said combination of technophobia and erotocentrism. So we were trying to get ahead of that. Now, if you look at any the comments, I don't know if you've seen those, you know, those those articles on 'The Man Who Married A Holograph' or Digisexuals in general? If you go to the comments, it's exactly that that horrible, you know, Digisexual phobia and it's just awful people are horrible. They're so mean. And I really don't think, I don't think that's helpful. So that's the history of the term.
Yeah. I know you had questions too about kind of the long term effects.
Ina O'Murchu :
I mean, okay, so.... right now we're embedding ourselves like into this like I suppose the technology, the sexuality, the Digisexuality as well as embedding it into our I suppose psychology of everyday life. We're seeing the pornification of society also, especially say with, like in Ireland and UK there is Love Island, there's a lot of people are trying to get a certain look for their lips. You know, there's, you know, breast augmentation. There was some programme on I can't remember what programme it was, where everybody was saying, 'Where do pubic hair go'? Nobody had any pubic hair. And they attribute this to the pornification of society. What really is? I mean, apart from these things, we're starting to see, what is the long term impact, you know, effect of these technologies on relationships? And how are they going? How do you see that they're going to change Markie?
Dr Markie Twist :
Yeah, I don't, I don't know. I mean, none of us are futurists or psychics. So I don't think any of us in good conscience, can say, here's exactly what the long term effects will be. I do think that one of the most helpful ways to think about it is and this is what I talk about with families and students, and then researchers, right. One of the best ways I think, to think about technology is to think of it as if it were a member of your family itself. Whereas if it were relational, if you prefer the term relational systemic family member. Instead of thinking of technology, as if it's an object, or as if it's something separate, we're different, it's helpful to think of it as, as literally, this is a family member that will grow and change as I grow and change. So if it's like that, then it means the conversations I have right now, for example, with my 11 year old about technology need to be happening now. But it doesn't mean we never talk about technology again, right? Because my child will grow and change and their developmental relationship to the world will change. And not only that, but technology will grow and change. And so therefore, we're going to have to keep revisiting it. I think the danger that we run into is people actually, and I think you mentioned this people actually thinking they know exactly what technology is going to do or is doing or not, not acknowledging it at all. So just pretending like as if it doesn't exist is also not helpful. So the best thing we can do, and what's funny is Kat Hertline and I co authored a book in 2013 called 'The Couple And Family Technology Framework, Intimate Relationships In A Digital Age' https://www.amazon.com/Couple-Family-Technology-Framework-Relationships/dp/0415641535. And this is the first time we post this idea. And I tell you what, much like the term Technosexual this book never took off. No one read it. It was probably too early. Honestly! Or who knows? Maybe you're just not good writers. You never know. But no one no one read it. But we were saying in that book and I am we're still saying it now in the internet family. Listen, everybody calm down. It. We just need to pay attention to technology and give it the love and the care and the walking away from it when it's needed. That it that it deserves. I mean, it isn't good or bad. It's what we do with it. That's, that's the thing about technologies. So for example, I know some people are like, oh my gosh, gaming addiction, online pornography, addiction, technology, addiction, addiction, addiction, addiction, right? Like, there's this big movement around addiction. And on the one hand, I get that, right? Like, if you just look at hours a day, and you're only going to look at that, then some people would be like, Oh my gosh, like we're never off our technology we must be addicted to it. Well, I'm sure the first time that people could write or the first time people talked, or the first time people had fire, or the first time people could actually like grow vegetables. I'm sure everybody was super excited about that, too, right? I'm sure it was exciting. I'm sure everybody was doing it with every major of like evolutionary change or revolution humans are going to become immersed in it until it becomes formal, right? And they're going to think of it in these ways. And so addiction is certainly one lens. Here's how my colleague Kat and I see it. You know, I don't know if you remember this, but Harry Harlow did research quite some time ago on Rhesus monkeys. And just to be clear, this research will probably never pass an institutional review board now. But it was the night late 1950s, early 1960 and people were doing some interesting work, right. And what he did was he had the monkeys, the baby monkeys, and he separated them from their mothers, which sounds horrible. And he gave them a wire monkey. And he gave them a cloth monkey that that covered the wires. And the monkeys were able to bond to the cloth mothers, right, the softy, the softness, the feeling of comfort that came from that, versus the wire mothers and Harry Harlow was doing this because he was studying both these ideas and on attachment. Attatchment is the sense of security that we get from others from the reliability and responsiveness of people that are caring for us in times of need, right, that feeling of safety and security. And what he said was, guess what? Rhesus monkeys can have security, even to objects, even to objects, right, that make them feel safe and secure. Certainly nobody that I know of has ever looked at that research in the past 50, 60 years, 70 years now and said, those monkeys had an addiction.No one has done that.
Okay. Let's get let's now look at other mammals, humans, right. Maybe when you were a child, I know when I was a child, I had a lovey or a blanket. I had a security. Right. Something that felt really good to have in my hands to help me sleep at night. If my parents were out And I had a childcare provider. I had a security blanket, it made me feel safe. No one has ever said that kids who have a security blanket are addicted to the blanket. No one's ever said that. In fact, most people are like, it's helpful to have an object that you feel connected to you. Some people feel this way about religious iconography, right? They might have a cross that makes them feel safe and connected. Some people feel this way about places, right? Like my home in Alaska. I live on a lake called Blue Lake and that always makes me feel safe and secure. No one has ever said that I'm addicted to my childhood. In fact, what we call it is an attachment relationship. I was, I was speaking at the Society For Sex Therapy And Research. You're going to get the title wrong. I'm going to get the title wrong and I apologise for that. And I was in Toronto this year and it was a room of 200 people. And I asked him if they had, had any security blankets, and almost everybody raised their hand. And I said, who still knows where it is? 75% of those people still know exactly where that attachment item is. And they still feel a sense of love and connection. Now, I guess we could argue, did that blanket ever love them back? Not in the conventional sense, of course, it's an object! Does it change how they feel? Absolutely not. My colleague Kat Hertline and I think that where we are going and where we are now, is we have attachment relationships with technology. It's the same relationship we've had to other things. It's the same relationship that Harry Harlow's Rhesus monkeys had to those cloth mothers. It's no different. It really isn't. There's been research that has looked at - the attachment relationship people have through their technology. So like, if you're in a long distance relationship and how's your attachment relationship with your partner who lives somewhere else? There hasn't been any research yet that has looked at the idea of attachments to the actual technology itself. What we do have though, is this idea of addiction. And we have this idea of separation anxiety from technology, we do have that. People that that have a strong sense of anxiety when they're separated. Well guess what? Children do too many children's experience separation anxiety when they're dropped off at kindergarten for the first day of school. Others don't.
And so what this would tell us, is those attachment styles to hear dismissive, preoccupied, unresolved disorganised that we see in childhood to our care providers and objects, and we also see in adulthood to our partners, and friends and children, we have the same kind of attachment relationship with our technology. And what matters then is accepting that and saying, you know what, I have a secure relationship with my technology. I can walk away from it and not worry where it is, and be okay with that. But I can also use it in times where it's helpful to communicate with others, when I'm standing in a line, and I don't want to disrupt the queue because I don't have patience. You know, when, when I'm, when I'm bored, right? I mean, these are things that that I can do. What I don't want to have is a dismissive or preoccupied relationship with technology where I either ignore it completely and therefore my child can't ever reach me again. Or I'm preoccupied and I do nothing but pay attention to my technology itself. And I and I think this is not only where almost every who has technology is, I think it is where we will be. And I think the sooner we start to think of it that way, instead of thinking it in pathological ways, which is really not helpful in the long run, because pathology just makes people feel bad, and and then they feel shame, and then they can't talk about it or do anything about it anyway. And then there's judgement, which doesn't help either. I think the sooner we think of it this way, the better off we'll be. And I gotta tell you, I'm still in love with my Blackberry from like eight years ago, there isn't a day that goes by that I don't think man I miss actually having the buttons and the keys on the phone. I missed the colour of the Blackberry. I missed the name Blackberry, right. I've never felt that kind of connection with any of my phones since then, I'm much more dismissive of these phones. But I loved that one. Right? And I and I don't think I'm alone and having those kind of feelings for technology.
Ina O'Murchu :
I think you can quite easily, like I have a great love for Alexa. They're great. They're beautiful. The colours there's something sleak about them. They're wonderful and they're useful. What's there not to like about about it? I mean, just the way it's designed and okay, it's a woman's voice and all of that, but it's packaged really, really well. I really like the whole design of it.
Dr Markie Twist :
I do too. And for some people, this relationship technology goes beyond attachment. And for some people, it's about sexuality. And that's where you get into Digisexuality. But that's not everybody. I mean, it's not like as we move into this second wave of sex tech, it isn't that everybody's going to have robots and have sex with them. I mean, it's just they're just not going to. I mean.
Ina O'Murchu :
Matt (Real Dolls) said himself, he said, he said to me on the call, he said they will never replace women, real women never.
Dr Markie Twist :
You also had questions I think about the pros and cons of the technology. Right?
Ina O'Murchu :
Yeah.
Dr Markie Twist :
So he's bringing up a great point of what people freak out over. So people freak out about the objectification of women through things like real dolls and robots and VR and online porn and so on and so forth. Listen, I have been a feminist since probably before I was born. I'm a fourth wave feminist. So I'm very into marginalised voices, regardless of the gender genitalia. And here's the thing. More women, and more queer people use sex tech, than men. I mean, that's, that's, just straight men are not the biggest consumers of pornography.
And they're not the biggest consumer of pornography. So guess what? I have a feeling there's going to be many women. We're going to be very happy to have a robot regradless of what the robot looks like. Now, are women objectified? Absolutely. Yes, of course they're objectified. But you know what that happened long before TV. It happened long before the internet. It certainly happened long before the invention of dolls and robots. You know, you can go back to the literature and the arts years ago.
Ina O'Murchu :
Pompei
Dr Markie Twist :
Yeah. I mean, come on. Like, this isn't different. This is what I try to tell people. It goes back to the what was it like before the technology? Oh, guess what, we've lived in a patriarchal society since I don't even know how long! That hasn't changed. And actually, maybe I'm going to go out here with the advent of technology moving into this maybe actually, it will do more to level patriarchy that that's my guess, honestly. But is it gonna take a while? Of course.
Ina O'Murchu :
Everything's takes time. Despite that, despite the rapid pace of change. Yeah, you know, how do you see the the technology enriching relationships, Markie?
Dr Markie Twist :
Yeah I actually think that technology in general and more specifically, like sex tech or Digisexual tech. Like anything, it's how you use it. So what are some of the amazing things that are happening and will happen? One of them is, man, people, like I said in long distance relationships. This, this has been incredible, right? They can connect with each other using sex tech via distance and practiacally be having sex with each other but they, they can. Older generations, who have struggled to have their sex recognised, have a sexual identity, connect with other older people, have technology that supports their ability to successfully have sex the way they want to. Technology is doing and will continue to do amazing things. And for those of us who are younger and might be ageist about older people of sex, guess what you're gonna age too and one day you're going to be really happy that the sex tech exists so that you can continue to enjoy your sex life.
People who, whose bodies have been disabled by society or who experience disabilities. I mean, the sex tech right now and in the future. What an incredible opportunity for people to be able to be sexual beings and be recognised as such, instead of having their sexuality, you know, neutered, because we don't see people who experience disabilities as sexual beings. That's just some of the kind of amazing things in addition to that - I really think there's gonna be a huge opportunity for people to explore, like I said, new identities, new ways of being sexual with each other, not just with the tech but with each other. I mean, let's say that you're in a couple relationship where you might have wanted to have consensual non monogamy, but you don't want to include another human because guess what, like maybe that leads to feelings that are complicated and, and some people don't want to experience that.
A robot is gonna be great. It's a third person that you don't have to worry about and you can put them in the closet when you're done. Not only that, but robots in the future think about it'll have probably changed interchangeable genitalia you can probably make it have any kind of genitalia you want. I'm excited for them to be not humanoid, right, like the opportunity to have a robot that looks like an alien the opportunity to have a robot that looks like a toothbrush. I really teeth. I mean, those kind of things right? Now, creativity that people will have as a therapist this, the ability to dialogue with people about the role of technology in their lives already is amazing. Some people come in with a very negative perception. I know that, I understand that. But just the fact that people can say, you know, I met my partner, you know, in this online world, we're totally in love, we never would have met in any other way. That story is not unusual now. Usual, five to 10 years ago, unless you were part of the queer communities, in which case that was a much more common way to meet people. But the the people who are isolated that grew up in places like Houston, Alaska, and people who are minorities living among a majority society, don't have any people like them. There are so many ways that people can connect to a broader world, the fact that we're having this conversation. Yes, we could have done this maybe over the phone, you know, 10 years ago, but it's different now. I just think that, you know, rather than technophobia, which I totally understand - being afraid of technology, I get it, like, we're all afraid of major change. But rather than doing that, you know, this is a real opportunity for people to like, sit down here and I'm saying get rid of it. I'm not saying don't be cautious. That's, that's dumb, no matter what you're doing. But this is a real opportunity for us to connect as humans in a way that that, dare I say, you know, going back to Huxley might transcend what it means to be human. And maybe in this current time, a future where we get past you know our differences. And if technology helps, I think that's awesome. Like I think, sure, have passion. First of all, it's not going anywhere. And second of all, you know, this is a real opportunity for us to grow and embrace something that actually might be helpful. Some people also are like, well you know, I'm worried about the environment . Of course, I'm worried about the environment too. Like, I'm worried about climate change, and I'm really worried about it. And some people are kind of anti-technology because they're worried that we're not spending enough time in nature.
Our kids aren't spending time in nature. They have nature deficit disorder, because of technology. And I'm like, Well, you know what? You can use technology outside, like there's actually tonnes of apps you can have outside and you can do things in nature. And guess what I really like when I'm out in the middle of nowhere trying to figure out where I am. So I like to look at stars. I like to have an app that lets me point to the stars and see what they look like. I like to have an app that lets me see a plant, take a picture of it, look it up and be able to say, 'Oh, we were ever trapped in the desert, we could eat this'. Like, I really think it's the opportunity to bring the encyclopaedia to nature with you. And it's less heavy. And it doesn't mean you can't still enjoy nature like, I mean, I just, I don't think there needs to be dissonance between caring for the earth and being a part of the earth and nature and, and still caring for technology.
And not only that, but technology hopefully is going to help us figure out all sorts of problems when it comes to the planet, right? Hopefully, it's gonna help us figure out how not to be so dependent on oil. I'm pretty sure it already has. Hopefully, it's going to help us figure out how to use more solar power, wind power. I mean, this is not the time to panic over that either. And I say this because the other book I just finished doing this called 'Eco Informed Family Therapy', https://www.amazon.co.uk/Eco-Informed-Practice-Therapy-Ecological-SpringerBriefs-ebook/dp/B07QVX7BSR/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=Eco-Informed+Practice%3A+Family+Therapy+in+an+Age+of+Ecological+Peril&qid=1591881140&sr=8-1 which was all about the role of nature and families. And one of the questions people always have is, how can you talk about that? And they'll say talk about technology. And I'm like, because they're not mutually exclusive. So, you can love the earth and also love your iPhone. It's okay,
Ina O'Murchu :
Thanks for listening and checking out my podcast. You can head over to Spotify and find my podcast there. Or on Apple iTunes, subscribe to my podcast on my website, you can head over to www.inaom.io for further details.
