In this podcast, I caught up with Dr. Neil McArthur, Professor of Philosophy at Manitoba University and asked him about the term Digisexual. Digisexuality is a term first introduced by Dr. Neil McArthur and Markie Twist's, 2017 Journal of Sexual & Relationship Therapy paper, 'The Rise of Digisexuality - Therapeutic Challenges & Possibilities'. A Digisexual is someone whose primary sexual identity comes through the use of Technology - so if a big part of your sexual experiences and connections with another person via things such as sexting or Skype. You're probably also a Digisexual.
-------------------------------------- FOLLOW DR. NEIL MCARTHUR, Professor ➡️ Twitter: https://twitter.com/morallust
In this podcast, I caught up with Dr. Neil McArthur, Professor of Philosophy at Manitoba University and asked him about the term Digisexual. Digisexuality is a term first introduced by Dr. Neil McArthur and Markie Twist's, 2017 Journal of Sexual & Relationship Therapy paper, 'The Rise of Digisexuality - Therapeutic Challenges & Possibilities'. A Digisexual is someone whose primary sexual identity comes through the use of Technology - so if a big part of your sexual experiences and connections with another person via things such as sexting or Skype. You're probably also a Digisexual.
-------------------------------------- FOLLOW DR. NEIL MCARTHUR, Professor ➡️ Twitter: https://twitter.com/morallust
In this podcast, I caught up with Dr. Neil McArthur, Professor of Philosophy at Manitoba University and asked him about the term Digisexual. Digisexuality is a term first introduced by Dr. Neil McArthur and Markie Twist's, 2017 Journal of Sexual & Relationship Therapy paper, 'The Rise of Digisexuality - Therapeutic Challenges & Possibilities'. A Digisexual is someone whose primary sexual identity comes through the use of Technology - so if a big part of your sexual experiences and connections with another person via things such as sexting or Skype. You're probably also a Digisexual.
Dr Neil McArthur :
My name is Neil McArthur, I am a Director at the Centre for Professional and Applied Ethics and Professor Of Philosophy at the University of Manitoba. https://umanitoba.ca/faculties/arts/departments/philosophy/facstaff/mcarthur.html
Ina O'Murchu :
The term Digisexuality Neil, can you explain it?
Dr Neil McArthur :
Yeah. Of course. Yes. So I want to say that in general that I'm an Ethicist and I'm interested not as a Technologist by any means. So I'm interested in the ethical social implications of Technology.
The term Digisexuality was a term that Markie Twist and I - developed - emerging from research on the impact of Technology, on people's relationships and specifically on people's identities. And we were noticing that, first of all people forming very close attachments to the Technology. And secondly, we were also aware that there is a whole new generation of Technology emerging. Particularly immersive and intense in the experience it offers and our view is that there will be people who will start to derive their primary sexual identity from their use of Technology and use of Sexual Technology.
So Digisexuals are people who see Technology as essential to their sexual experience and who don't see humans as essential to their sexual experience.
Ina O'Murchu :
It's not even necessarily a blended experience it can be completely digital one?
Dr Neil McArthur :
That's right. It certainly can be. The majority of people will integrate Technology into human relationships, but we think there will be a small number of people for whom the Technology is itself enough. But my suspicion is it will be a small number but nevertheless a significant one. So I think that when you look at other forms of alternative sexualities, whether it's Kink or whatever, I mean, I often use the analogy of Kink, where, you know, lots of people are interested in it, lots of people dabble in it, I guess you'd say. But then there's a core group of people, of core set of the population, who see it as their primary sexual experience and our speculation is pretty ungrounded but I sort of anticipate maybe we'll see 2 or 3% of the population who identifiy as Digisexuals.
Ina O'Murchu :
Well, we have all these subcultures also without digitisation....
Dr Neil McArthur :
Exactly. And so when you look at how these identities emerge, and how they spread and what their prevalence is, I think you can when you look at just how widespread the use of Technology is, I think you can probably you can guess it will come in around that.
Ina O'Murchu :
Why is there a moral panic over this, Neil, in your opinion?
Dr Neil McArthur :
I think moral panic is a good term for it. I mean, people have anxieties around Technology and new technologies. And people have anxieties around sex. And so when you put those two together, they end up being a pretty potent combination. I guess. I'm still trying to decipher why people have such strong reactions tied to this technology there's lots of real concerns people have. But you're right, the reaction tends to, tends to spill over into something much more disproportionate in fact.
Ina O'Murchu :
Maybe the reaction is greater than the actual reality?
Dr Neil McArthur :
That's right. I mean, first of all, these technologies are coming quite slowly. You know, technology always moves fast but it's not like tomorrow, everyone is going to abandon human relationships and just marry robots. I think we are ways away. I think that the Virtual Reality Technology is moving more quickly then say Robot Technology, although even the VR technology is not a new thing, you know, this better than I do....
Ina O'Murchu :
What was very interesting with the conversation that I had what Matt (Matt McMullan of Real Dolls) was that these dolls even though there's a demand for them and what he's doing putting AI into them. He said they will never replace real women. It depends on what your needs are and your requirements are. But let's kind of bring it back to you know what you were saying there about, you know, people marrying robots. What's the situation? I read there recently about some Japanese man who married actually a virtual character, a virtual reality character, but we are hearing stories coming out of Japan, mostly, parts of Asia, maybe possibly even Seoul, but it seems more so in Japan, but they're marrying robots and they're...
Dr Neil McArthur :
Well the stuff I've read and I think you can link it to some issues around, honestly, just the fact that, you know, women entering relationships, they're expected to have kids and drop out of the workforce. So a lot of women don't end up entering into relationships because they want careers or they've delayed being in relationships. So that leaves a lot of young men pretty alone. So I think that's definitely part of the dynamic there. Obviously Asia and Japan in particular and Korea as you say, have always been on the cutting edge of technology and they have fewer maybe hang ups about new technologies than we have.
And so it maybe makes sense they are also more more willing to experiment.
Ina O'Murchu :
But things are changing. We're entering into this time where, as you said, where women are choosing career over family, this is the age we've kind of gone into. There's more women that say in the workplace and more of them are choosing financial independence over marriage and children?
Dr Neil McArthur :
Yeah. Yeah. That's right. I think we should see that as a positive thing.
And I think that is happening in our society as well. I think that in general as young people find their careers more demanding they just find that relationships can't be their priority and I do think that is partly whats driving now the use of these technologies for sure...
Ina O'Murchu :
Also I think that technological adoption means we were talking about this - this morning - that social media addiction. It means people don't really have have a lot of time for other stuff that hey used to have for. Whatever that other stuff used to be, you know, sort of fit whatever you want in there.....
Dr Neil McArthur :
Yeah, no thats right. I am certainly am very sympathetic to people who worry about the imapct Technology on sort of hollowing out our social spaces. I think that's a real problem. My general view about Digisexual Technology is that it's good and I'm very positive on it. I think that there are various kinds of negative effects that it can have. Certainly one of them is the potential to continue what's already happening, which is that - that gap, people are connecting less in real life and we're seeing fewer, social spaces and fewer interconnections.
Ina O'Murchu :
What are the more emerging trends we are most likely to see Neil say in the next five years?
Dr Neil McArthur :
First of all I think that people when they think of this sort of Technology they really focus on robots. The movies are always about robots and the TV shows are always about robots I don't think that the robots are coming anytime soon. I think there's just too many variables around designing robots.
I do think that the Virtual Reality Technology is the stuff that we should keep an eye on. And that's the one part that interests me this virtual reality porn is honestly not very interesting. The virtual reality that interests me is these sort of group spaces, I guess you'd say, various kinds of multi user environments where people can interact and can now interact sexually. I think that I think that that's probably gonna be about something that will happen fairly quickly and develop fairly quickly. And whether it will probably happen in conjunction with Teledidonics, a sort of haptic feedback devices that you can buy that you can link to your virtual reality and experience physical sensations when you're in virtual reality. So I think that is the trend.
Ina O'Murchu :
With virtual reality, you're completely immersed in the world you're not sharing your your body or your hormones with someone else. So, is this a biological thing that's kind of going to be replaced? You know, is it going to replace the biology?
Dr Neil McArthur :
I don't think it will replace the biology I think it's going to supplement it. I think that it will provide a lot of people with outlets that they can't achieve in real life. I think that, you know, some people I think through virtual reality can connect with each other. I think that they sort of teledidonic technologies are tremendously useful for long distance relationships. You know, I always think of this as being something that will probably supplement real connection, although, again, there are people who will prefer it and who may forego that real sort of biological connection. But I don't think that's the end of the world because we already there's already people who just choose to remain single. And you know, we don't really panic about that there's a huge percentage of people who just don't seem to need that biological connection with anyone. Just they're just on their own. So the fact that some of them are using technology I don't think is a big issue. What happens is you buy a sex toy that is like, you know, the sex toys that you'd be familiar with. And then they are networked. You can hook them up to your virtual reality set and then just coordinate the feedback. It gives you feedback based on what's happening in virtual reality, minimise the fact that there are concerns. But I think that when you talk about the ethics of it, you need to talk about, you know, the costs and benefits, I see a lot of benefits, I see a lot of benefits, for people who are isolated, I see a lot of benefits for people who have had sexual trauma or who have trouble forming human relationships for any number of reasons. Maybe they're just shy, maybe they are not conventionally attractive. I think that you should put it very simply, I think these technologies are actually going to be a lot of fun and people are gonna enjoy experimenting with them. It's just gonna be it's gonna be something that people can you know, find a lot of pleasure from it and mostly too this will continue to break down so that the hang ups we have - we won't have people continue to panic about it. But if people start to accept these kinds of Technology, they'll start breaking out some of that freedoms we have still about sex.
Negatively, though I do think that you know, already pornography portrays women in a certain way, very stereotypical in terms of their personalities in terms of their body types and all that. And I think that at least initially, this technology is going to, you know, continue with that sort of pornification of, you know, how we view women and I don't think that's a good thing at all. I'm sort of optimistic that, that though will sort of fall to the wayside as people develop more interesting technologies. And there's already lots of people who are trying to develop sexual technologies that don't just look like female porn bots.
Ina O'Murchu :
That's very interesting what you're saying when you made the point about the pornification of women in particular, which is unhealthy. We're seeing huge impact on social media, on mental health, and especially on young girls. So I think it's I think it's very difficult when you're faced into this sort of unrealistic expectation from both young, you know, teenagers, both both guys and girls. This in a way what they're seeing online is making them sick isn't it?
Dr Neil McArthur :
It is. Absolutely. You know, I mean, as I said I don't think the newer technologies that are coming out are going to create that problem. I do think they could exacerbate it. But I guess if we want to look at maybe a positive flip side, maybe this will finally be a wake up call that makes us really address some of these deeper issues around, you know, the expectations we have with women and what they should look like and how they should behave.
Ina O'Murchu :
Can I ask a question?
I mean, obviously, the companies spend bazillions on, the porn companies, on research and tracking Data, you know, and how long you know, the Data analytics, I mean, Pornhub in particular. If these companies all, they also, they know exactly what they're doing. And they also know it makes women ill. So where are the ethics with these companies? And who controls that because the genie it's like Pandora's box now anything goes with pornography....
Who calls the shots with these people who wraps these people on the knuckles? Or are we, we are just we're just all victims to it and we that's just it, we've to comply with our Tech overlords - who decides - who are mostly coders and most of stuff is done in Miami now. It's done by men for men. So why is it all, there's a massive imbalance. How can we, how can we rectify this? Is it going to be possible? That's my question.
Dr Neil McArthur :
I don't think it will be easy. For sure.
I think that he responses are always going to have to be to just develop better products. I think that the companies that exist now, have a business model and their culture and I don't think they're probably going to change until society forces to just by changing the preferences. But I do think, this is one thing that I will say about Sex Tech. It isn't dominated by any of the big companies that dominate other forms of Technology, because they are just afraid to enter this space. And so right now, even though actually there are certainly a few big players, relatively speaking, there isn't the same kind of all oligarch grip whatever you'd say is, you know, controlled by a small number of companies. There's a lot of room for innovation and a lot of room for new players to enter in the market. One of the challenges is that these companies have is, is just very, very hard to raise money that the venture capitalists won't touch anything that's related to Sex Tech. You know, the big Trade shows are seem very capricious about who they allow to display. So there isn't a support network for smaller more innovative companies who are developing more interesting products. And so I think that if we can develop that kind of financial, promotional infrastructure facilities younger, more dynamic, companies. Then you would see more interesting technologies. You wouldn't just see what the bigger pornography companies are producing.
Ina O'Murchu :
But isn't that a massive opportunity?
Dr Neil McArthur :
It should be
Ina O'Murchu :
It's a massive opportunity.
Dr Neil McArthur :
Yeah, I think I think somebody, if somebody can figure it out, I think somebody's gonna get wealthy hopefully, hopefully, we won't just create a bunch of new monopolies. But what I would love to see is a dynamic industry. I think it's very possible dynamic industry with lots of small players, you know lots of alternative, alternative designers and there's room for all sorts of interesting things if we can just figure out how to get the money into the industry I know that one of the one of the issues is that the pension firms in particular, I think the California Teachers pension requires that anywhere it puts his money not be anything to do with sex, basically. And so, so none of these big Venture Capital firms that have backing from these pension companies can put any money into this.
Ina O'Murchu :
Of course they all have pensions. They all have pension companies. Yeah. But still, there's, there's a lot of room for, as you said, for innovation and for women driven companies, and for a lot of new players to emerge in the space. You just need the right the right type of investors. I'm sure they're out there. They just need to group together?
Dr Neil McArthur :
I think thats right. It takes people to sort of make it happen within the industry. I don't understand. But I would love to see it happen because as you say, I think there's already look, here's one thing I will say already. If you look at who uses sexual technology, that is to say, who uses sex toys, it's overwhelmingly women, and you know, they are in the market for sex toys. So all we need to do is get people to see that they are also potentially a huge, huge, huge part of the market for new sexual technology and you will see companies that are led by women that are designed by women they are targeting.
Ina O'Murchu :
There you go now listeners is there's a huge opportunity there. It's a massive area the growing I think the demographic group that's growing with the use of pornography also is women?
Dr Neil McArthur :
Yeah that's right, that's because there is finally starting to be, you know products, you know that respond to their needs. And finally, it's really a virtuous circle is that, finally some companies or some pornography producers are figuring out there's a market for something more than the crap honestly that they've been producing for decades....
Ina O'Murchu :
Yeah, it's I suppose things take time to mature. And also people's sophisticated tastes also need to develop and emerge, don't they?
Dr Neil McArthur :
That's true and I also think that the other big thing is, one thing that affects women in particular is the stigma around some of this technology you know around watching pornography and so on. And so I think, you know, one of the things I'm very interested in is how do we break down stigmas around sexual technologies so that women and particularly that women do feel comfortable using it.
Ina O'Murchu :
Do we start in school Neil or where does it begin?
Dr Neil McArthur :
That's a good question. I think probably there is a role. I think that one way or another, here's what I will say, one way or another sexual education in school is going to have to start really grappling with Technology. And so given that they are going to have to do that anyway, hopefully, yes. Hopefully, they can develop a sense that Technology can be positive and, you know, promote some understanding around what counts as positive technologies and positive use of technologies. I think the broader culture can play a huge role, too. I mean, really, it's amazing to me, how much television and movies and so on that have been and now you know, as a new novelist, to literature, how many people are writing about Sex and Technology, and yet it is still kind of still locked into some of this very conventional moral panic kind of stuff. And it would be nice if we could normalise it a bit in the media as well.
Ina O'Murchu :
Why did this stigma around women happen? Is it because of patriarchy, or was it the religious organisations?
Dr Neil McArthur :
That's a good question. I think that we've had, it's funny when you look at how women have been portrayed in society, it changes - there's always patriarchy but once upon a time in the 18th Century, women were seen as sexual initiators as people with huge sexual appetites. And that was the concern, the concern was that there were women out there just wanting to seduce men left and right, then in the 19th Century, suddenly you shift to the more Victorian view of women as totally desexualised and, and now I think we've ended up kind of kind of muddled about it at all, certainly no, you know, certainly we don't have a perfect, you know, understanding of how to promote women's positive women's sexuality, but, but we're kind of neither here nor there. We've got different paradigms. And I do think that as women become more assertive in the workplace and in education and so on, it's changed for the better, that's for sure. So wherever it came from, I do think it's breaking down but I that doesn't mean we need to be complacent. I think it's still because it still presents huge challenges. As you say, I think the social media environment has really amped things up in a lot of ways.
Ina O'Murchu :
So it's really it's really a case of maybe time, Neil?
Dr Neil McArthur :
I think so but I don't think that it's gonna happen accidentally. I think that we need to keep pushing for I think there's so many great people who are out there trying to talk about sexuality, writing books about sexuality that are positive. I think the one thing you've seen in the last decade, is sexualitiy and sexual identities that we would have once considered very weird or alternative starting to really emerge openly. I mean, not just gays and lesbians, but non monogamous people, and kinky people are all sort of coming out of their own closets. And so I think that the more visibility we have around these kind of alternate sexualities, the more we start to say, 'Oh, I see, just because they're different, doesn't mean there's anything wrong with them'!
Ina O'Murchu :
We also have more terms now.
Dr Neil McArthur :
We do we have, we definitely have a proliferation of terms. It can be a little can be a little hard to keep track!
Ina O'Murchu :
That's for sure. Including Digisexuality.
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