In this episode, I spoke to Prof Guy Standing, Guy is a British Professor of Development Studies at the University of London, he co-founded the "Basic Income Earth Network". He's also author of the book, "The Precariat: The New Dangerous Class." And he argues that Globalization has pushed more and more people into The Precariat, which he describes as "A New Emerging Class".
-------------------------------------- FOLLOW PROF. GUY STANDING, Professor 🌐 Website: https://www.guystanding.com/
In this episode, I spoke to Prof Guy Standing, Guy is a British Professor of Development Studies at the University of London, he co-founded the "Basic Income Earth Network". He's also author of the book, "The Precariat: The New Dangerous Class." And he argues that Globalization has pushed more and more people into The Precariat, which he describes as "A New Emerging Class".
-------------------------------------- FOLLOW PROF. GUY STANDING, Professor 🌐 Website: https://www.guystanding.com/
Hi there, and welcome to my podcast show and I'm your host, Ina O' Murchu. So right now we're in the middle of a phenomenal Global Transformation with technology. And we're seeing a new class growing, it's called The Precariat Class. The Precariat refers to people whose jobs and incomes are basically in secure blend of precarious and proletariat. In economics and sociology, the precariat is a social class comprising of people suffering from both precarity. It's a precarious existence, which lacks job security, predictability, or material welfare. This class of people, the Precariat, they lack job security, many economists and sociologists say that the Precariat has emerged as a result of entrenched Neoliberal Capitalism. I called Prof Guy Standing, Guy is a British Professor of Development Studies at the University of London, he co-founded the "Basic Income Earth Network". He's also author of the book, "The Precariat: The New Dangerous Class." And he argues that Globalization has pushed more and more people into The Precariat, which he describes as "A New Emerging Class".
Prof Guy Standing:
My name is Guy Standing. I'm currently a Professorial Research Associate of SOAS, University of London, so as the School of Oriental and African Studies, but I'm not only a Development Economist, I've also been a Labor Economist, all my adult life. And I was a co-founder, and now honorary co-President of BM, which is the "Basic Income Earth Network". So, much of my time is spent writing on on basic income and talking about basic income. But today, I think we're going to be starting with the growth of "The Precariat" and then come to "Basic Income".
Ina O'Murchu:
Exactly, you've been covering this topic Guy, of the basic income for some time now. So I mean, I suppose firstly, why now, why is it become sort of a topical subject? I mean, obviously, the technology has changed many things. But, you know, part of it's suppose, what's led up to it's been coming such a big issue now.
Prof Guy Standing:
What I've been working on "Basic Income" for over 30 years, that's how much we've been working, collectively and around the world. And undoubtedly, in the last two or three years, we've suddenly become mainstream for a long time, people regarded basic income as unrealistic or utopian, or just didn't understand it. But the last two or three years, huge number of people have come around, including prominent Silicon Valley people, including people on the left and on the right. And there's a real energy out there. And we've just had our Congress in in Lisbon, our 17th International Congress, and hundreds of people came from about 50 countries. So you can tell there's a real growing energy and a lot of fantastic people have been joining. It's it's open to everybody. And I think the reason that suddenly become mainstream is a matter of what I call a perfect storm of factors and come together that have made it almost essential. The first of those things is that with Globalization, with the Neoliberal Economic policies that governments have followed, labor market flexibility, and, and so on. And with the Silicon Valley automation trends, we're seeing a new class structure in the world in which the growing class of people is The Precariat. Now, The Precariat millions and millions of people who are facing a life of unstable labor, a lot of work that doesn't get remunerated or recognized, a casualization of their their life. They are having to rely on money wages that are volatile and falling in value. Wages are stagnating in many, many countries in all across the OECD countries, and the living on unsustainable debt, where one mistake, one illness, one accident, can tip them into almost suicidal homelessness and all of those problems. They are losing the rights of citizenship, often without knowing it within their own countries. They don't have to be migrants to be in those circumstances, although many migrants are also losing rights. So the growth of The Precariat, victimized by millions of people having chronic economic insecurity. And they cannot get economic security from the existing state benefits, which are means-tested, behavior tested increasingly, in many, many, many countries, if not all, there's been a growth, the number of people dependent on means-tested benefits. And what that means is that they have to prove that they're poor, in order to get access to benefits. And if you have to prove that you're poor, then you have to prove that you're deserving poor. And if you manage to get benefits, what it what it means is if you go from benefits into the sort of low wage jobs that people in the Precariat can expect to get, you face a marginal tax rate of over 80%. And that means that they only gain an extra 20%. If they go from benefits into the sort of low wage jobs they can expect to obtain, which is a huge disincentive, especially as they've got extra costs to meet when they when they go into a job commuting, and so on. And they have the prospect of going back into having to rely on benefits again, but waiting for some considerable time. So there are huge disincentives for The Precariat to take low wage jobs. So that means that the state is increasingly resorting to punishments and sanctions and all the various other things that go with that. So, The Precariat is the first factor, because the part of the Precariat or what I call activists, they're fallen out of the working class, and they are anxious, they're insecure, but they're also very angry. And this bond is voting for the Donald Trump's, and they're voting for Brexit. They're voting for Marine Le Pen and Geert Wilders and other Neo-fascist populists. And this is a very dangerous strength. And I think this is one of the major factors, why some chief executives, who you would not expect to be supporting basic income are coming out in favor, because they see the political dangers of having people chronically and secure. The Silicon Valley, the second major factor is the advanced of the robots, I don't believe that, we're suddenly going to have nothing to do where we'll be made redundant because the robots will be doing everything. I think there's plenty of work for us to do, care work, voluntary work, civil work, all sorts of work that we want to do. But I think much of the work that we're doing is going to be unremunerated won't be a wage for it. And therefore, the disruptions of the technological change could mean that more and more of the income goes to the the possessors of the robots, possesses the technology possesses of the intellectual property rights, the papers, the copyrights, and so on. And I think that the distributional consequences are such that inequality has become dangerously high, and shows every sign of continuing to grow. So this, this inequality is an extra factor, we need a new income distribution system, whereby a basic income would be in a sense, a share of the rental income gained by the possessors of the robots and all the high-tech means of production. And so, so that is the second, the third factor, I think, is the Ecological Crisis. And we need eco-taxes, carbon carbon taxes. But the trouble with carbon taxes and eco-taxes is that they tend to be proportionately higher for the poor than for the rich. And therefore they only makes sense if you could have a carbon tax and dividend, the dividend being paid as a basic income, because that's worth more for the poor than for the rich. So these combinations of factors, I think, is why suddenly, many more people are supporting a basic income.
Ina O'Murchu:
So it's just like it's all kind of coming together, you know, like aligning, lining up all at the same time. So we really do. Yeah, we do. We currently we have a situation, don't we, especially with the incoming automation. The term is a Platform Economy, because anybody who owns a platform has got users on the platform. I mean, they're going to make money and the money is going to go all the way up to the top. That's always been the case. But it's a bit reach coming for them.
Prof Guy Standing:
I think I think the the growth of Platform Capitalism has to be confronted as a rentier economy. It's rent rentier capitalism. And the in the apps are essentially like labor brokers, were the possessors of the apps are taking 20% 30% of every labor transaction. And this is where only at the birth of this process, it's going to get much more substantial as a as a way of organizing labor. But it's clearly got to be rethought, regulated, and we've got to have a new system of distribution. I think that what we're going to be doing and I certainly favor this, is that the there has to be a levy on all forms of rental income, most of all, those associated with renting with the, with the platform capitalism, and the incomes have to be put into the sovereign
Ina O'Murchu:
To Amazon. Yeah and make them even richer. wealth funds, democratic wealth funds, and then with the ability to pay out a basic income would gradually increase through sovereign wealth guns, as they do in Alaska, as they do in, in Norway and and as many people want, in some other countries. So the growth of Platform Capitalism is really pointing in a direction of altering the income distribution system as such. This is the theme of my final chapter in the book"Corruption of Capitalism". Yeah, it's published, it's published in it, it came out last year, it's now in paperback. It's called "The Corruption of Capitalism: Why Rentiers Thrive and Work Does Not Pay", published by Biteback. And the moment it gets giving a lot of talks on it around the world, you can order it online, you can order it online.
Prof Guy Standing:
Yeah, no, it's not expensive.
Ina O'Murchu:
Okay. Okay. Good. Then attach the link as well to the podcast, Guy.
Prof Guy Standing:
The main chapter of interest you in the book is chapter six, which is on Platform Capitalism.
Ina O'Murchu:
Okay, great. Okay, I'm going to go check that out. There's no way around. What's happened, there's been a change, but technology is moving. This is another thing that happens, the pace of technology's changing so fast that governments really can't keep up. It's kind of like the the horses bolted out of the stable, like, how do you go and get it back?
Prof Guy Standing:
I mean, I think the technology is, is very disruptive, it's very rapidly developing. The governments are behind the curve. We know that in terms of developing new forms regulations over contracts, new regulations over bargaining procedures, new regulations on redress for things like non-payment, a lot of the brokers are often refusing to pay people online, claiming that their work is not good, or it hasn't been finished in time or something like that. Well, you know, it's, it's a very asymmetrical relationship between people who can just refuse to obey. And the people down the end of the line, don't have any power or the ability to seek redress, that sort of thing has to be dealt with. And I do think that governments have been rather slow and haphazard about responding to this. It's a major area, and things like the Taylor Report in Britain has just missed the opportunity for addressing this. It is something that is developing remarkably fast. So you know, you're right, to emphasize the need.
Ina O'Murchu:
The nine to five is a concept that's really for a bygone era.
Prof Guy Standing:
No, I think I think the answer the question there is, you're absolutely right, the idea of a nine to five block of time that you spend in labor in a job, etc, is dying rapidly. And our official labor statistics get the way that the government's measure, employment and unemployment and economic activity is unfit for purpose. It's just a disgrace now, and just not appropriate. And we need we need to reconceptualize what is work, we need to recognize that a lot of people have to do a lot of work of workplaces, outside formal working hours. And that is almost the norm and for The Precariat. It is undoubtedly the norm and they have to do a hell of a lot of work for which they don't get paid, including waiting around for labor. So I'm filling in forms all the time and things like that. And that's what I've written about in the books on "The Precariat". And a lot of people write to me, saying this is this is their life, that they spend a lot of time working without gaining any money at all. And it's very stressful. And this is this is the reality of the platform capitalism that is coming, it's going to get much worse and more and more. It's a mockery, that our labor statistics, record figures, so many people in employment, so many people not employment is just just not accurate. But this unfortunately, that they has not risen to the priority it should be in in official statistics,
Ina O'Murchu:
You have to, you have to confront it.
Prof Guy Standing:
Yeah, yeah it has to be confronted.
Ina O'Murchu:
You, you, you mentioned at the start the conversation that you know, a lot of people that are that are the precarious sort of strata of society, they they are really placed where they're out is really bad. What do you see like the future? What are the possibilities for sure to bring in a bit of you know, are there any solutions? Where are the solutions?
Prof Guy Standing:
I think basic income is undoubtedly part of this, I think that if everybody had a basic income, it would give them at least some security, it would increase their bargaining position, it would enable women to move out of oppressive relationships that they only stay in because of financial need, that sort of thing. So a basic income must be part of the strategy in these circumstances. But there are other forms of action that are required, like regulations on recruitment procedures, like regulations on contracts that have to be more open, to enable people to have contracts that are binding on employers and labor brokers in platform capitalism. So there are lots of things that that needs to be done at the same time. And a realization that the income distribution system must be changed, I think is is is the fundamental call that I would make because they're expecting real wages to rise on average is just ridiculous. In Australia, or in Ireland and Britain, or in the United States, real wages on average, and then the real purchasing power of wages will not go up in the foreseeable future in a sustained way. They might fluctuate a bit. But the trend over the last 30 years has been stagnation and decline in wages. Therefore, the system as such, needs to be reformed. And that's the main message I would give to you.
Ina O'Murchu:
Thanks for listening and checking out my podcast. You can head over to Spotify and find my podcast there, or on Apple iTunes, subscribe to my podcast on my website, you can head over to www.inaom.io for further details.
