The Internet Family With Dr. Markie Twist

In this episode, I get to speak with Alaskan-born, Dr. Markie Twist- a licensed marriage and family therapist and mental health counselor. She's also co-author of the books, The Internet Family: Technology in Couple and Family Relationships, The Couple and Family Technology Framework: Intimate Relationships in a Digital Age. We got to discuss the term Digisexuality and the impact of digital technologies are having an intimate relationships in today's digital world.

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FOLLOW MARKIE TWIST, Therapist
➡️ Twitter: https://twitter.com/Dr_Markie_Twist

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MARKIE'S PUBLICATION:
The Internet Family: Technology in Couple and Family Relationships by Drs. Katherine Hertlein and Markie Twist

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Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction
• 0:35 Dr. Markie Twist Introduction
• 4:12 Relationships & Technology
• 7:19 Technologies & Vulnerability
• 9:59 Family Rules & Technology
• 11:22 Technology & Boundaries
• 14:27 Consent
• 17:24 Technology Framework
• 19:53 Building Intimacy Online
• 20:44 Similar Gender Couples Online
• 22:22 Facebook Official
• 24:03 Ending Relationships With Technology
• 25:33 Cyberspace Memorials
• 27:09 Ecological Elements
• 28:11 Accessiblity
• 29:19 Affordability
• 31:03 Catfishing & Anonymity
• 31:36 Acceptability
• 33:11 Approximation
• 35:33 Accomodation
• 37:14 Ambiguity
• 38:23 Accountability
• 39:36 Family Technology Framework
• 40:24 End

Transcript

Ina O'Murchu: 0:01

Hi there! And welcome to my podcast show. In this episode, I get to speak with Alaskan-born, Dr. Markie Twist- a licensed marriage and family therapist and mental health counselor. She's also co-author of the books, The Internet Family: Technology in Couple and Family Relationships, The Couple and Family Technology Framework: Intimate Relationships in a Digital Age. We got to discuss the term Digisexuality and the impact of digital technologies are having an intimate relationships in today's digital world.

Dr. Markie Twist: 0:35

When Ka h Hertlein and I and (uh) we, we first develop d The Framework back in 2012. And Kath actually rote a paper on the Fr mework first, that was pu lished in Family Relat ons in 2012. And hen we solidified and e tended the framework a it. In 2013, we wrote ou first book, which was which was actually cal ed The Couple and Family Technology Fra ework, that was the main title, did kind of an pdated second edition i formal second edition o the book that publishe last year in 2019. An that one's called the In ernet Family. And tha's an even more u dated extended framework. And I think you're ri ht, I think the thing of t is, like you mentione, and we talked abou last time, there are s many obstacles and chal enges people face in re ation to technology, you know, they're in Ireland, other places in the Wes, and certainly all ove, you know, the wo ld in various ways. And there isn't really a fra ework for how to address those challenges, and th n how to accentua e the benefits, beca se if technology was al bad, (uhm) then none of us would want to use i, right? And so it can t be all bad. And the pr blem is, so many people focus on the negatives o it, and forget that the e's also positives, s(uhm), you know, (some some of the positives a e like, it's fun, you kn w, if you're in a ong distance relation hip, you can manage that etter, which is doing a azing things for people all over the world. Li e, right now we'r having this conversat on, which we would not h ve been able to have nd (and uhm) your podc st is reaching so man people, which is excit ng, right? And so we're creating a global sense o connection (uhm) and that means there, the e's more support, there's like more options for elationships, (I) You an build intimacy through technology, which is exci ing. So those are som of the benefits, right? But like, there's bad ides, too, right? Are there certain nega ives that you see mor(in) in kind of, li e, your area like Ire and? Or? (Uhm), I think just in

Ina O'Murchu: 3:04

I think I would say just from just from what you read in the paper, you know, nobody, at the moment, I think there's a lot of people, a lot of people, you know, (uhm) young parents that are uncertain on the educational system anymore, because it belongs to it almost belongs to a bygone age. It's just that in between phase where they don't know how they're there's been some (some) new stories that have been, you know (uhm), you know, I don't want to get into into on this, on this podcast, I've actually been really shocked at what you've read. And, you know, they're quite young, they're 14, they're 13. And it's like, that's like from

Dr. Markie Twist: 3:39

Yeah, it's a great observation. they're not getting any, any awareness, things have to change because I think the rapid pace of change, it's not just here Markie, though, it's in developing countries, because they're going straight into this with the mobile phone. You know, the end of like, an all of a sudden, like, it's just, you know, you go from one extreme like, say, in places like the Middle East where things are very limited and very hidden, told of a sudden, you go on your lunch break, and you can have whatever you want. So it's, That's right. And so I think you're right, globally, we're facing some obstacles. Like physical concerns, cheating, safety, bullying, loneliness, depression, anxiety, out of a control behavio s, predators, you know, o line predators with ch ldren. I mean, it really s out of control. And so hat Kath and I did, Kath Hertlein and I did was e took a look at, you now, kind of what are he benefits? What are he negatives? And how an we make a fram work for families and eople in rela ionships to include tech ology in meaningful ways But also be thou htful about the tech ology. So protecting them elves more on agai st some of these adve sities that everyone is f cing. And then (uhm we) w wrote about it and, an the Internet Family ha practical tools for bot like clinicians an medical providers an social workers an counselors. But it als has practical tools fo parents and adolescent and families (uhm) an we developed what we ca led The Couple and Fa ily Technology framework. And what that framework is, is it draws rom different fields (uhm so it looks at Family S udies, and Family ther py and Computer technolo y, and Information Syste s, and Media Stud es and Psychol gy and Communication Stud es. So it looks at al those different fields in it. We took data and theory from those di ferent fields. And w said, let's investig te the effect of techno ogy on relationships. Let s just look at what tec nology does in relatio ships, the good, the b d, the indifferent, let s just look at that. And hen we came up with a fr mework and what we (what we) did, and I can send you just the image of it because that image might be helpful for eople to see, it's a t ree part framework, one is Their Changes to the tructure of Relations ips, (uhm) connected to echnology. And I'll g into that more in d tail, then there's Changes to Process, ow does it actually affect the process of rel tionships. And then fin lly, (there are set) th re are Eight Ecologi al elements, which are he different kind o situational factors t at influence the stru ture and the p ocess of our rela ionship with technol gy. And it's those eig t ecological influences that I think are (t e) the kind of easies for people to address retty readily. Li e, they're not difficult(uhm) To just kind of have almost a checklist hanging on their fridge at home, and being like, how am I addressing this one issue in relation to our technology, right? So we really wanted this framework to be accessible to professionals, and also just everyday people. Because both Kath and I, even though we're both therapists, and we're both researchers, and we're teachers, we're also both parents on and we also both have families. And you know, our kids are only six months apart (uhm), you know, they're they're both 12 right now. And so like 12 is a really vulnerable age, just in general. And now with technology, there's differences around vulnerability, then maybe when I was younger, or you were younger, (uhm). And so let me kind of break down those two different parts, the Structure and the Process. And then if you have follow up questions, I can elaborate. And then I can go into the Ecological elements. And like I said, I'll send you (uhm) the image of this so that people can see it, because that'll be helpful. But in terms of structure, technology affects relationships this way. First, it affects the rules. So relational systems, or families, if you want to call it that, for shorthand, need to come up with rules about technology. And then it isn't just you have to do that once, you're gonna have to do it over and over and over again. Because as your kids grow and change, or as your relationship with a partner grows and changes, the technology is also growing and changing, right? So like, let's say that, that your kids when they're young are using like, I don't know, like an Xbox system, right? Like an actual system, a console that's with a television. Well, that's static that stays in place. So you might have certain rules when they're young about when to use it and for how long. But as they get older, guess what? Like Xbox systems might be portable, nothing but portable, they might be just VR. And now you have to change the rules that your kids have in relation to that system. Because the technology changed, just like your kids have changed, right? So, you have to come up with rules as a family. And then you have to revisit them over time.(Uhm) And really the best way to think about the technology then, and I think we talked about this last time, is think of technology as if it's a member of your family, as well. So like, what's everybody's relationship with the technology. You know, many people have Alexas or, you know, Google Voice equivalents in their homes? Does Alexa come to dinner with you? You know, do you ask Alexa questions at dinner time? Or do you turn Alexa off? Right? Like, Alexa is like a member of the family. So when is Alexa invited? And when is Alexa not? And what are those rules? The next part is structure is the rules. So you have to decide what's the role of the technology in people's lives (uhm). And for some people who might be more kind of a luddite, you know, they want to live off the grid, then technology doesn't really have a role in their life. Having said that, guess what almost anybody can be found. Like, if you Google people, and you're specific enough, you can find anybody, even if they've never even been online. I mean, (my) my grandma, for example, before she died, you know, a decade ago, she never was online, but I can find tons of information about her. Her obituary, you know, her birthday, her family history. So, even if you aren't gonna have an overt relationship with technology, and that's not gonna be the role in your life, you still have to think about the role that it's gonna play. And if it is gonna have a role, then to what extent? So for example, to be honest, the role that technology plays in my own life is pretty professional, I don't actually use a lot of personal technology, like I don't play a lot of games, I don't, (uhm), I don't know, I don't go for the latest iPhone, like I have an actual pretty old Samsung, you know, Android, I don't(uhm), I don't want like, I don't even have headphones that are like, you know, wireless. I mean, I really only have a professional relationship. I use my technology for work almost exclusively. But that's a different role than like my partner. So my partner loves technology. He always gets the latest gadgets, wants to invite technology into the home a lot. And now my kid has been influenced by that and definitely loves technology more than I do. But the great news is, the role that it plays in my partner's life is (uhm), I think such a good role model for my kid, like he's very balanced about it, but makes it fun, but also makes it educational. So like my child has someone who's acting as a role model on how to use technology in meaningful ways, right? And also, because he plays so many of the games with the kid, that means that there's someone interacting with the kid, it's just like playing a game offline, right? It's just like doing it before technology, and the kids definitely still being supervised. So deciding on the role is really important. And then the boundaries. Uhm, privacy is (bet) is one of the most important things people worry about challenge wise with technology, especially for kids. I'm like, what are gonna be the boundaries? And who's gonna manage them? Am I gonna have like a guard on my technology or not? Am I going to, you know, I know many people who when their kids get social media, mostly ages for social media is like 13, and up. But many parents and guardians have a rule that like, I either have to be your friend, and or I have to be able to log into your accounts, right? Like I have to be able to see what you're doing. If you want to have these things and so that's, that's a matter of like, managing the boundaries, helping the kid maintain privacy. But also you're kind of you're, you're violating some of their privacy, right? Because they're still a kid. But the thing of it is, is you can't safeguard for all of that. And so doing the best you can to be considered a boundaries and discussing them is important. The other thing to think about, depending on what kind of social media you have as a person in (uhm), I don't know, if you want to be friends with your kids online. (I don't) I don't know what your social media shows. But you have to think about like, your kids are gonna be able to find stuff out about you, too. (Uhm and), and so that's important to think about in terms of boundaries as well. Uhm, the other thing to consider in terms of boundaries, is like, you know, a lot of parents, very well intentioned, but the research shows that especially new parents will post like, tons of pictures of their kids and videos early on, right? Like, and you have to remember that, that then your kids, you know, that's a digital footprint that's being created about them well before they even have awareness of themselves in relation to the world and just in relation to themselves. And so, you know, I really caution people on posting a lot of things because anybody can download those images. And they can be used in all sorts of ways. And the thing of it is, is sometimes predators, that's how they, you know, find kids. I mean, it, you know, I understand wanting to be prideful about your children, I get it, you know, really think about that digital footprint. I sometimes will really encourage people with adults and other parents to ask permission before you post anything, and most teachers, and medical providers will have to get written consent before they post things. But even just verbal consent can help and then you can use the hashtag with consent from so that, you know, there's kind of a record that at least, you know, someone was informed and helped make made an informed decision. And I can, I can tell you a kind of a horror story, when my kid was about four, they had very, very long hair, which is, you know, lots of kids do. And they decided one day to cut, cut it on their own. And like half of it, they cut and there's this huge clump of hair on the ground that they kind of tried to hide under the couch. And I found it and I was like, Hey, what happened? And they're like, Oh! I just wanted to cut my hair, you know, if we can put it back on. And I was like, that's not how hair works. Like, you can actually just put it back on. And they were very upset. Because they loved their hair. It's long again now (but) but they were very upset. And I of course, thought this was cute, like this is all kids do this kind of. So I took a picture of it. And I posted it on Facebook, and months later, they're at a family gathering (on their) on their dad's side of the family. And one of their great uncles sees them and says,"Olivia, looks like your hair's grown back really well." And my poor kid is fortified, like, shocked. Like, how do you know about that? He's like, Oh, I saw the picture on Facebook. And that was it. Like, this five year old kid comes home because I wasn't at the event. And scolds me like is like, it is totally not okay for you to post things of me. Without my permission, like, that is not okay. And I was like, Okay, I won't do that again. Yeah, you know, so boundaries. Like, you know, you're not the one as a parent, who sometimes will have to deal with the implications of the things you publish about your child. But they might have to deal with those implications in the future, not only worrying about creditors from the outside, and bullying from the outside is important, boundary wise, but also worrying about what are you doing to your kid that might not even just be embarrassing. But might actually be like really problematic in the future. So that's the structural components of the model. And this isn't none of this is (is) design, the framework is not designed to, like, only focus on negative, it's also about positives. It's also about like, it's really just about managing your relationship with your technology. It really is just been thoughtful about your relationship. And you're absolutely right. Like, the best way to think of technology is anything that you put out there is literally out there. It is, (it is) like paper, only, it can't really be easily burned. You know, I mean, it's like writing it on rock, you know? Like(it's), it's hard to break it. And it just nothing new you really right as ever is ever secret? Not really. So like just being aware of that. That doesn't mean you have to be paranoid. It just means be thoughtful.

Ina O'Murchu: 18:51

Mindful, I think is a very good(good) word about it. And right now, because of the lack of education. I mean, this is another reason, you know, I'm not gonna get into this podcast. But it's very difficult to regulate tech. Because tech regulation involves a certain type of person, which I would consider a unicorn need to be a barrister, yet to be technologists, and even the barristers I know that are doing this. They're very skilled in certain areas, but they don't have all the pieces. They might be very strong in the area of law, but they don't have the technology. And they don't have the security piece. You know, there's bits missing. It's very hard. These people are polymaths really, because so my concern is that the ethics, they're doing stuff around the ethics the center for humane technology. I really love what they're doing. We've got a long way to go. But I, I really believe in decentralized technologies, the next wave of technology. It's just how to use all of them, and to introduce another level of education into the schooling system because school education is irrelevant now.

Dr. Markie Twist: 19:53

That's great. So the next part is Process. So one side of the framework is is) the Structure. And how technology affects that isn't affected by it. And then the other side is process. And so the process implications are this, like, first formation. Technology influences how we form relationships now. (uhm) Like online dating, intimacy, the demographics, availability. People can now form relationships in ways that just were not possible before technology really exploded in the way it has, like, I remember when it was still considered a really, you know, unique to have met someone online and start dating them. Unless you were in some kinds of like, like similar gender couples have been meeting online and dating longer than different gender counterparts. Because you, you couldn't be out, you know, (uhm) in certain places. I mean, you still can't. (Uhm)And so it was a safer place to meet people (uhm) and now lots of people meet online, I mean, I met my primary partner online.(Uhm) and, you know, we've been together for years, and we're both in, in like the technology industry. Uhm, so it definitely has changed the way that we meet people. And some people think that like, that also influences intimacy. And it does. What we(what we) know from the research is, actually when you (when you) have chats, you know, when you start chatting with someone online, and you text. That actually builds intimacy more quickly, than if you were to meet in person, or even talk on the phone, or do a video call. And some of that's because people can be thoughtful about what they text to each other, they can present the way they want to, they can, you know, control the pace of the conversation, they might disclose things that they wouldn't have disclosed in person because it's more anonymous. And so you might feel really close to someone that you've met through like okay cupid, or plenty of fish, or, you know, whatever it is just through text based communication. And then naturally, when you meet to have, it might not feel as intimate. It might not feel the same because the (the) intimacy changes. When you use text based communication, the intimacy also changes when you're with someone longer. So, even if you use text based communication in the beginning, and you know, you feel really close, and you develop this close relationship, and then you start dating offline. And then you form this long term relationship, you don't usually use text based communication the same way, the longer you're in that relationship. In fact, as you move into that next part, which is maintenance, the maintenance of a relationship. Technology influences that timing and that tempo, too. So like, the way you use text base, and messaging later on in a relationship is usually as like a Honey-do -list. Like, you know, did you pick up the kids? Yes, I remember to pick up the kids. Did you get the groceries? Yes. You know, I mean, it becomes more of this kind of day to day check in and less about intimacy and connection. The other thing that happens maintenance wise, is we still have people that are like, you know, is it a real relationship until it's Facebook official. And some people might, you know, be out in their technology online, and some people might not be about their relationships, and people can get their feelings hurt. If there's not a shared understanding of how are we going to appear? Technology wise, together? We're not, right? And so having those conversations about the way that you're going to maintain your relationship through technology is (uhm) also really important to consider, right? The final part of the process is dissolution. Dissolution, so technology also influences the ending of relationships. So, like for example, when your friends break up with each other, and you're friends with both of them on Facebook, who keeps the friends? Like, and is that a mirror of who's friends offline, too, or not? And like, are they still friends? Like, did I find out because their status changed? Like, did they make an announcement? Do you make an announcement? Like Facebook and social media and other things have changed the dissolution process. The other thing is starting, like I want to say maybe a decade ago now, but I might be overextending that timeline. You could set a Legacy person on your Facebook. So like, I have a legacy person. I have someone who will be in charge of that social media when I die. Like I've designated a person to do that, right? But you can also designate it so that (that) turns off that it's not something that's maintained. And the fact that you can now have these cyberspace memorials or grave sites, instead of the physical one, or in addition to, has really changed how we conceptualize and deeds, in terms of relationships, I mean, (my) brother died about 12 years ago and has a Facebook page. And I maintain the Facebook page. And you know, that's a nice way sometimes for friends to reminisce. But occasionally, I'll get somebody who thinks my brother is alive, and is like, "Hey, man, how you been?" And I have to like, we break that news. You can now properly, like once every couple years. And so, that probably wouldn't have happened in exactly the same way. If we didn't have technology and the relationship we have with technology. Having said that, technology has also done some pretty amazing things, you know, for the end of life, like people can join groups, like I'm part of a Sibling Loss support group on Facebook, that's wonderful! I get to be connected to people all over the world who have experienced that kind of loss. And it's so comforting to have that connection. And you know, that would have been really hard to do on a global level like that, before the advent of this modern wave of technology. What's important to consider here then, is in terms of our framework, just like technology is affected by an effects the structure of relationships. It also is affected by an effects the process of our relationships. The formation, the maintenance, and the dissolution. And you have to be aware of each one of those components, as you're thinking about your relationship with technology. So the probably what I consider to be the most important part of this framework is the ecological elements. And that's the third part. And there are eight different parts to this. And it just so happens, they all start with the letter A, at least in English. And so that's acceptability, anonymity, accessibility, affordability, approximation, accommodation, ambiguity, and accountability. And don't worry, I'll break down each of those really briefly. If you pay attention to these different technology based ecological elements, then you can actually have exchanges that are more informed, and more ethical, and more intimacy enhancing. If you don't pay attention to these elements, then you tend to have greater vulnerabilities. And then you can have more harm,(uhm) because you're not addressing kind of the natural elements that happen with technology and relationships. So the first one is accessibility. And this is basically the idea that guess what, a daily anywhere unlimited accessibility from virtually anywhere is what technology offers. And so, you could be at the Grand Canyon, or in the middle of the ocean, for the most part, and still be able to connect to everybody all the time. And one of the biggest impacts this had on relationships is what we call the negative work spillover. So, like many of us are never not working now. And so it's really important to set aside time, create boundaries, you have to create boundaries, once again, now we're back to the structure of and how that's affected by accessibility. Like, for example, I tell my students, "You know, if you send me an email I'm not going to respond. I have up to 48 hours to respond." Like it just because it could come to me immediately doesn't mean I'm gonna drop everything and answer that email. Right? So I give people about a 48 day, 48 hour window (48 a day) 48 hour window, okay? But other people have to make their own choices around accessibility. Affordability. Most technology is now pretty affordable. There also isn't a lot of receipts that come with technology. And so this can really affect how people spend money. Like a lot of people will be spending money and not even know that they're really spending money. And that's how you end up going on like an Amazon spree without even knowing what you're spending. So like just remembering to keep money in mind. It's hard to do because we don't really use paper money the same way anymore, and we don't really have those receipts. And so, being thoughtful about the affordability really is another ecological element. One way that gets affected is who pays for it. So like, if you're in a family system, and the parents pay for it, then guess what, in many ways, the kids aren't in control of it. Like, you know, I'm sorry, but your parents own it, you know. So having those conversations about affordability is important. For example, recently, my kid bought their own gaming system because their dad and I, we're not buying them one, we're like, "You can save the money, you can buy it. We're still gonna regulate it. But then you own it." I mean, it really is yours. So they have a different relationship with it. Because they paid for it, it feels really personal to them in a different way. The other thing to think about is even the most technology for most people is pretty affordable. Now, things like AI, advanced AI, and robots and dolls and stuff like that are still not very affordable. So even though people are kind of freaking out about this idea of second wave Digisexuality. Most people cannot afford to go out and buy a $10,000 real life doll. Okay? so(so) we're kind of far off from that, at this point. Anonymity. Technology makes it so you can enhance your ability to promote any chosen identity you might have. And so you can hide aspects of who you are in hide relationships. And that's a product of anonymity, right? And so like catfishing, is a good example of anonymity. And so being thoughtful for yourself about how anonymous you're going to be and what the impact of that is, as well as how anonymous you see other people being is another ecological element to definitely be considering, right? Acceptabilility. This is probably one of my favorite ecological elements, because I feel like this one grows and changes pretty rapidly. This is the idea (that) that behaviors that might have been unacceptable at one time via technology, or even not, without the technology. Just in general, are now acceptable are still ambiguous. So for example, I remember when people would start going out to dinner with their phones, and many people would be very offended when people would get on their phones. And I kind of feel like that's changed a little bit, at least for certain generations, I think now, that's become more acceptable. I think people are now like, "Oh, it's really okay, if we're on our phone a little bit, as long as really sharing it with each other. We're still talking to each other." But I would (I would) caution people in with acceptability is, don't assume that just because you think something is acceptable technology wise that other people think it's acceptable. So like, I think it is important to have those conversation. I think all of these elements are important to talk about. But that one, especially like, what I like at dinner with friends and family is I'll say, "Why don't we put our tech away, and then we'll have a technology break. Like we'll get on our tech, you know, for like five minutes, and we'll share that time, but it'll be an arranged time that we all agree on. So none of us are feeling excluded, or left out, or set or that our feelings aren't hurt." Same with like online dating, again, that used to not really be acceptable. Now many people feel like that's a very acceptable way to meet people. Approximation. The next one is approximation. And this is the equality that technology in the(internet), internet approximate real life situations. So it's that blurring between fantasy and reality. And so if you and I are talking this way, we're having a conversation together. Are we having it in real time? Is this real life? Yes, it is. But there's still some distance. But this is pretty close. Like, this is almost what it would be like for us to sit down and just talk to each other, right? So it's getting closer and closer. Now if we were doing this with VR, it would probably be even closer to real life, right? And so this is that approximation. And as we get further and further down the technology, rabbit hole, we get closer and closer to approximating that boundary. But between what's real and what's fantasy. And (and) I think this is where people start to get kind of freaked out between like VR, and an alternate reality type experiences versus like reality. (I think,) I think when you get into that wave, you start to have people that(that) started to get a little bit more anxious. Because it starts to approx approximate real life. So for example, when I'm working with couples around like, consensual non-monogamy or nonconsensual non-monogamy, one of the things they'll be like is they're like,"Yeah, it's totally okay. If you watch you know, adult content online or online porn, I have no problem with that." That doesn't feel like cheating, because it's not really approximate. These aren't what exactly what they say, but this is how the ecological element shows up. Because that's not really like real life, right? It's like watching a movie, right? But if the person says I'm gonna get a VR headset, and I'm gonna start engaging in sexual encounters, just in a movie still not even with another person. Sometimes the partners like "No way! that's like cheating." See, because it starts to approximate real life more. And that for some people starts to make that, you know, kind of a no go, right. And so dealing with this ecological element of approximation, I actually think this one's gonna ge more and more im ortant to consider as we progress through te hnology. The next is accommodation. So this is the idea that technology(provides) provides us with a greater opportunity for us to act one way in real time, but to have a different persona or personas when we're online. So it's not the same thing as being anonymous. It's the idea that I can still be myself, but I'm just being other parts of who I am. Right. So for example, you see this show up, this element shows up a lot in people whose identities are marginalized. So like one concept, my colleagues an I developed is calle Electronic Visibilit Management. Many gay an lesbian and bisexual an transgender and quee identifying people offline will practice visibility management."Can I be out at work?" ike if you're a teache of elementary k ds, especially if you' e a gay male, it's re lly hard to be out in hat environment. Bec use people have a lo of stereotypic ideas hat are like, wrong, but hey still think that way. And so many people ar n't out. But you might eel safe being out onl ne, maybe. And so th t's accommodation. "How much does my online self mirror and refle t my offline self? Or are they really different wo lds? Because I ha e to practice visib lity management" This sho s up in relationships a lot, because sometimes p ople will be comfortable eing out about certain arts of their life of line with their partner but they aren't comfor able being out about tuff online and their pa tner is and so sometimes you have to figure out. How can we strike a bal nce for you to in term of managing accommodat on? Right? The next element is ambiguity. And so this, again, is a really, I think this happens a lot. So this is that difficulty defining what's problematic and what isn't. If you're friends with your ex online, is that okay? Or is that cheating? And so technology brings up all these kind of ambiguous things that many of us are not certain about. One of the things I like to ask my students, for example, is like, "In fact you in sex?" Right? If you like send, you know, flirtatious messages to people or pictures or whatever, is that sex? And they're like, No, of course not. And I'm like, "Okay, but what if you're in a relationship, and your partner is sexy? And other people? Are they cheating?" And they're like, "Yes, they're absolutely cheating." And I'm like, "Okay, well, then I'm confused. Which is it?" Like, "Is that really a form of sex? Or is it not, right?" And so like, ambiguity, figuring out what, (what is) what is definitionally something and how you interpret it, and then developing contracts around that. Really important to do in managing this element. The last element, and this is the one we added in our 2019 book, in our 2013 book, when we went over this framework, we did not have this element in. But what happened was, over time, we started to see this element emerge more and more. And that's accountability. This is the idea that when you're in the context of technology, it makes it difficult to manage your time and be attentive. So it's hard to be accountable for time and attentiveness when you're using technology. There is a high degree of temporal displacement that happens when people are on technology. Like, you know, it's easy to sit and watch Netflix and binge watch it forever. Right? It's easy to just keep scrolling through scrolling through like Reddit or Facebook, and just keep going for hours and hours and hours and not notice that. (Uhm) But this is the idea that you do have to think about the responsibility you have to the people in your life outside of technology. And so making sure that you're considering accountability. And that element is really important as well, probably the biggest way this shows up is like ghosting. You know, people will just not be accountable to people, whether it's online or offline. And so really having a clear conversation about like, what's the role of accountability around technology and your relationships? Is also a really important part of the couple and family technology framework. And then with this framework, like I said, it's there's three parts, ecological influences, changes the structure, changes to process, and then how all three of those parts interact with each other and technology in your relationships. And that's the model. I mean, that's the whole framework. And then, in the book, there's tons of like, forms and questions and contracts and different examples that people can use. And that helped them just figure out how to manage their technology in their relationships through this lens. And that's the model.

Ina O'Murchu: 40:24

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