Bouncing From Adversity and Embracing Your Weird With Pat Flynn | TNE053

Who do you consider the God Father of podcasting? When you think of other social platforms and their acclaimed stars, a few names probably pop up in your head. For YouTube, it could be David Dobrik or Mr Beast. For TikTok, even though a relatively newer platform, Charli Damelio is probably one of the names that come to mind. I mean, she was in a super bowl commercial literally 6 months after joining TikTok. 

Podcasting has its own figure heads and heavy hitters. From Jordan Harbinger to Joe Rogan, podcasters have been building authentic relationships with audiences for nearly 2 decade. Not to mention have been making boat loads of money from it as well. Today we’re featuring one of these heavy hitters and a master innovator in the podcasting space. We’re joined by Pat Flynn of smart passive income. Pat’s started his podcast back in 2009 and has grown his business to 8 figures since then. He’s got a ton of valuable and free content out there so be sure to check him out. Instead of focusing on actionable steps this episode, we really dove deep into Pat’s journey and intentions behind why he does what he does. If you’ve ever been in a position of adversity, you’ll definitely relate. 

Show Notes - 

[08:15] Why people are drawn to authentic podcaster like Pat Flynn
[18:20] How you can establish relationships you can draw on in case you need them
[25:27] How bad experiences can help you grow and be successful
[29:28] Why Pat decided to decline the perfect job and focus on his own business
[37:35] Why individual connections are valuable in business
[45:18] Obscure strategies of having a successful podcast

Pat Flynn's website:
www.smartpassiveincome.com

Omar's (Host) Social Media:

Instagram - @nomadables

TikTok - @nomadables

Facebook Group - NOMADABLES - Accountability & Growth Community for Remote Workers- Perfect to meet fellow online entrepreneurs, remote workers, and digital nomads.

YouTube - Omar Mo

LinkedIn - Omar Mo Nomads Cast

Twitter - @nomadables

Pintrest - @nomadables

Clubhouse - @pods

WEBSITE: https://www.nomadables.com/

Transcript

Intro- 

Who do you consider to be the Godfather of podcasting? When you think of other social platforms and their acclaimed stars, a few names probably pop up in your head. For YouTube, it can be David Dobrik or MrBeast. For Tiktok, even though it’s a relatively newer platform, Charli D’Amelio is probably one of the names that come to mind. I mean, she was in a Super Bowl commercial literally six months after joining Tiktok.

So just like socials, podcasting has its own figureheads and heavy hitters, from Jordan Harbinger to Joe Rogan. Podcasters have been building authentic relationships with audiences for nearly two decades, not to mention have been making boatloads of money from it as well.

Today, we’re featuring one of these heavy hitters and a master innovator in the podcasting space. We’re joined by Pat Flynn of Smart Passive Income. Pat started this podcasting journey back in 2009 and has grown his business to eight figures since then. He’s got a ton of free and valuable content out there, so be sure to check him out at smartincomepassive.com.

Instead of focusing on actionable steps in this episode, since Pat’s already so well-known, we really dove deep into Pat’s journey and intentions behind why he does what he does. If you’ve ever had to go through adversity at any scale, you’ll definitely relate.

Now before we get started, please hit that subscribe button and leave a review. Your reviews help this podcast be seen by more people just like you. So, essentially, you’re doing your own part in helping inspire other people. With that being said, here we go.

You're listening to The Nomadic Executive hosted by Omar from nomadables.com. Join Omar as he sits down and speaks with leading online entrepreneurs, remote workers and digital nomads about everything from business strategy to travel and lifestyle design. Together, we're here to help you achieve a life of happiness, health and freedom. And now here's your host, Omar Mo.

Omar:

All right. The Pat Flynn. Welcome to The Nomadic Executive. Thank you so much for coming on today.

Pat:

Dude, I'm stoked to be here. Thank you. Thanks, everybody, for listening in.

Omar:

Awesome. Let's go ahead and get started right away. I know this is an episode that my audience members have been waiting for, for quite some time. I’ve been giving little teasers at the end of every episode that I've been doing for the past three or four weeks. So, needless to say, me and my audience are both incredibly excited. So, let's go ahead and dive right in. 

For those who are tuning in for the first time or don't know who Pat Flynn is, just go ahead and give a small origin story from that moment when you first got let go from your architectural job. 

Pat:

Yeah. I mean, I thought I was going to be an architect for my whole life. I went to school and went to college and did the thing and I got the job and then it was going really, really well. Until June 17, 2008, I got told I was going to be let go and it was really tough because I didn't have a Plan B. It was supposed to be a secure job. This was, of course, the last time a whole bunch of people lost their jobs just like during the pandemic but it was the great recession and I didn't know what I was going to do.

And I moved back into my parents. I actually just proposed to my girlfriend and she moved back in with her parents so we could save money for this wedding. And I was still working my final days because they couldn't just let me go right away. I had gone up so much in the company that I had clients and such, they couldn't just like terminate me that day so I had a little bit of time. But during that time, all I was thinking about was what am I going to do next, what am I going to do next? 

And I went in for architecture interviews and I'd like begged and I pleaded to get back into that space. But then, I got a different idea. I had listened to a podcast called Internet Business Mastery, and on this show, I had heard an interview with a person named Cornelius Fichtner, and he was helping people pass the project management exam and he was making six figures a year doing it online. And I was just blown away. I was like, what? Like, I can't believe this is real.

And number two, I made the connection that, wow, I took a bunch of exams on my way to becoming an architect. Like, maybe I can do something similar, so that's what I did. I actually built a website and I helped people and I was very active in forums spending 12-16 hours a day, just on this thing grinding. And then in October--

Omar:

Quick question.

Pat:

Oh yeah, go ahead.

Omar:

Um, I've heard this story before but I always had this one question whenever you told it. Whenever you’re actually making the site and you're making all the exam materials for it, per se, were you still applying like simultaneously to other jobs, are still looking for work or-- ?

Pat:

100 percent.

Omar:

Oh, you were. So, or did you go in your head, were you like, okay I'm going to go all in on this and put the job-- ?

Pat:

No. I mean, if I were to sort of skip ahead in the movie a little bit, even when it was making five figures a month, I was still going into architecture job interviews because I just didn't believe that this was real, or that it might be just a fluke, or that-- you know, again, part of part of my struggle was I went to school for architecture for five years. If I go down this new route, would have that all been a waste? Right? 

And so, all these things in my head going through and, you know, eventually, I ended up building this website, like I said, and launching the business and it did very well. It made over $200,000 within a year. But within that year, there were still moments where I was like, I don't know if this is good or not. I don't know if this is going to work. 

I remember even my first sale. Making that first sale and immediately, the euphoria that came out of that was kind of trudged on from all the feelings I had about, well, what if this person asked for a refund? Maybe I'm a fake. Maybe I'm an imposter. All this kind of stuff and stuff that I think we all deal with when it comes to entrepreneurship and business.

And so, later on, I started a website called smartpassiveincome.com to help people learn how I did that. And I was just using that as my case study and sharing all these examples and it happened to stand out in the audience. 

And I think that happened because number one, I had a real business that I was talking about, I just wasn't like regurgitating stuff. And then number two, I am more of a family man, right? I wasn't the laptop lifestyle, Lamborghinis in the background, read knowledge kind of person, I was the person who was like I just want to be financially secure for my family because we're having two kids and I have no idea what I'm doing. And I think people really resonated with the sort of authenticity of that. And you know what I mean? 

And so, like I just continued to grow and help people and I found that the more people I helped, the more I stepped into myself, the more people sort of come back and want to help me out too. And now, this has turned into a multimillion-dollar company that helps new people start businesses, help them validate their business ideas. Everything from books, courses, stage presentations, helping them start podcasts affiliate marketing, email marketing. The whole thing. 

And we've helped people start new side gigs, we've helped people completely change their lives around and escape the nine to five. So, that's why I'm here and that's why I'm happy to help today and that's my short, medium story.

Omar:

It's crazy you built this such like an incredible genuine, authentic niche for yourself that someone can automatically always relate to you, no matter if it's a podcast episode or watching a YouTube video or anything like that. Like, I've had multiple mentors on YouTube, mentors, per se, the people I watch or people that I listen to or people that I've learned from, but I've never-- 

And I come from such a different background than you right, Pat? You're a family man. You've got children, you've got a wife. You went to college for five years and I did too but on a completely different degree but different paths. Yet, I was able to sit there and listen to you and absolutely just feel related and almost comfortable. It's a strange word to put it but I felt--

Pat:

Can I ask you why? Like what, I mean, this might be weird and I'm not looking to tell, have you tell me I'm awesome or anything. Like I just, I'm curious. Like what about it? And this may be helpful for others, like what about me made you go toward me versus run the other way?

Omar:

To be honest, it's the non-threateningness and the humbleness. I think that's what it is. You have this humility and humbleness to you. Because in my eyes, and to many people in my audience and people that are even in my network, you're an icon, right? You're up there with Lewis Howes and Gary Vee. Like, whenever we think of those names, we also think of you.

Pat:

Still crazy to me that--

Omar:

It is. I want to dive into that later too because I want to know how it felt when you even got to that status in the first place. And I know it was a gradual thing and it kind of one day you just probably woke up and you're like, whoa, you know. But I want to get into that later for sure. 

So, we see you as an icon and yet, here you are on YouTube lives every single day grinding it out. I think Episode 303 today. 

Pat:

Yes. In a row. 

Omar:

Yeah. And I've read your book. Super fan. So, you talk about this concept where you connect to the audience a little bit better and you convert them into actual super fans. You know, that pyramid model that you have. And I can see that directly coming with you. So, you practice what you preach, yet you're so accessible to everybody and you portray yourself as this humble family guy and we can feel that vibe from you. 

Because a lot of people know when someone's lying to them, right? Or a lot of people know--

Pat:

Of course. Yeah.

Omar:

Yeah. People can see right through that and you don't keep that front up for anybody, which I think is what draws people to you so much.

Pat:

Thank you. I appreciate that a lot. I don't know who else to be but myself. I mean, that's the interesting thing. I think a lot of people try to be somebody that they're not, actually, because of somebody else's success, right? It's very easy. 

I mean, I remember when I first started my blog in 2008. There was a guy who I really admired, and I still do, his name is Darren Rouse from problogger.net, and I had my website look exactly like his because I loved his stuff and I just wanted to do exactly what he was doing. But then, over time, I found out that, well, inspiration is different than sort of just like mimicking somebody. And you got to kind of find your own voice, you kind of have to find your own space. And so, you know, your kind words about authenticity and all this stuff like that is just very much who I am. So, I'm now using the tools that I have available to me to amplify who I am. Right? 

And the cool thing is, one of my favorite things is when I meet people in person, they're always like, oh dude, I'm so grateful because you're the same in person as you are in real life. And I love hearing that because that's how it should be, in my opinion, but at the same time, it always surprises me because I think people expect that it can't be that way, right? I don't know. It's just that's just who I am. So. I mean, I think when people know who you are and what you believe in and kind of what you stand for, then they can stand with you.

Omar:

It makes sense too. I think it's because we're in the age of micro influencers and influencers that are not celebrities out of movies. And whenever you hear, or at least back in the day, I mean, I'm a millennial and I remember when I was younger and the internet was still in its early stages, you would hear about movie actors being complete a-holes in person or like completely different than they are in the actual movies. And people watch someone and--

Pat:

I still hear that.

Omar:

Yeah. Exactly, right? So, I think a lot of people's heads are just, while we're still rising in this whole influencer generation, people automatically assume that the person they look up to is going to be different behind the camera than they are actually in front of the camera, you know? So, there's that stigma there that I think we're kind of training us as humans and born in the internet age to kind of get away from, if that makes sense.

Pat:

Yeah. That's a great point. And I think it's very important that when you are building a brand online, especially when it's a personal brand, right, and you get people to know who you are, there's a lot of ways to go about it to increase the likelihood that you can make an impact on people. 

And number one is understanding who else is out there first, right? Like, who am I competing with, what are their known, what are they known for and how can I find my own position, what are people going to talk about me for, right? And if it's like something that somebody’s already done, then it might not work out. 

So, for me, in the online business space, it was very clear to me early on that this whole idea of just being like the humble family guy, which I am. I saw how well it was working because it was different, and then I leaned into it. And I think like it was maybe by happenstance or chance or something that I figured this out, but when I leaned into it even more, it started to even amplify even louder, which is really cool. 

And you know, you consider somebody like myself who's maybe a little bit more, you know, down to earth or toned down a little bit versus like some of these other people who are also teaching business but they're loud and they're aggressive and they got Lamborghinis and mansions and cars. Like, I know that that's how they are. So I go, what else can I do to stand out? 

And I remember I wrote an article way back in the day about my own sort of Ferrari. And my Ferrari is a 2012 Toyota Sienna, which is a soccer mom van, right? And that like--

Omar:

Are you still driving that?

Pat:

We still have it, dude, because-- and I'll tell you, like even though I do have a Tesla now and you know, I'm a big fan of Tesla, I'm an investor and whatnot, but the van, dude, is so useful. And I didn't like it at first, I wanted like the sports model because it looked a little bit more manly. But, dude, I can't live without it now because with two kids and a puppy and we go to parks and play games and stuff, it's like it's just way more convenient and I'd rather have life be more convenient and have less to worry about than like just looking good in front of other people. So, you know, that’s one thing. Seeing what other people are doing and then leaning into the things that make you unique. 

The other thing that's been really helpful is, and this is really interesting, the more I share my faults, my failures, the tough times, the more people connect. And it's really interesting because I've come to realize that that's what makes me more relatable. And I've heard these direct words from my audience, right? 

And it reminds me of a friend of mine, his name was Adam Baker, his name is Adam Baker. He used to blog at manvsdebt.com. And he was starting his blog right around the same time as me but he exploded. He got way more traffic than I did. And it always puzzled me because manversusdebt, Adam was hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt, or at least tens of thousands of dollars in debt, yet people were coming to him to learn how to get out of debt. 

And it's like, on one hand, you're like, would you get physical training from somebody who's like 400 pounds? Probably not, right? But this person was massively in debt, yet he was somebody who was building this massive audience and helping others. But it was because he was in it with them, they were relatable, right? Because he shared how much he had shaved off of his debts within the past week or past month, and people were like, oh I could do that too and let's kind of do this together. Right?

So, this is how I feel that my brain is, is sort of like let's sort of do this together kind of thing. And I'm not better than you, you're not better than me. This is why I named my community Team Flynn because I'm the captain, right? Like, my analogy is I'm in the forest, I have the machete, I'm blazing the trail, I might get cut up and scraped up but I'm at least making it easier for you but we're going to be on this journey together. Or like a soccer team or a football team, it's like, hey, I'm going to pass you the ball every once in a while. If you score and you win the game, we all win together. 

This is why team Flynn, I'm just the captain with the sea on the, sea patch on the shoulder. 

Omar:

It's interesting. 

Pat:

Go ahead. Sorry, I'm talking a lot.

Omar:

No, it's all good. I wanted to add on to that, actually. I was reading Dotcom Secrets by Russell Brunson quite recently and I remember him talking about the attractive character archetype. And one of them was like the reporter, who would basically go in and have a team behind his back and wait for them. He would go in and interview other people and learn from other people and pass that information back to them. So, it sounds kind of like that's what your, I guess to quote that book attractive archetype is, you're kind of like the leader. You're leading the ship and you're getting all this information from everywhere. You're learning and experimenting and you're passing that information back on to your audience.

Pat:

For sure. And that's, in this case, what a mentor does. That's what a coach does. And so, in the world of business and entrepreneurship that those types of things are very useful for people who are starting out mentors and advisors and coaches and such.

Omar:

Right. That's good. That's kind of like the approach that I'm trying to take as well and you can see that in the content that I put out too. I've just started pushing out more content but I kind of want to follow in the similar footsteps that you did, where like I'm still fairly new to business and I'm learning everything I go along the way and I want to teach that to my followers. And I've already got people reaching out to me saying, hey, like this is awesome that we're learning, and actually getting on a call with someone that follows my content. So, it's kind of like a full circle and I hope to be where you are in maybe a few years. I mean, one can hope but hard work will--

Pat:

I mean, go beyond me. Like, you create your own path and blaze your own trail and, you know, I'm sure one day you will create something that I can learn from, right? And there's probably content out there already that can make that happen. So, you know, I'm just grateful to connect because really, part of success is really about the relationships. 

And this is why I say yes to a lot of these podcasts. I don't have a ton of time but I love connecting with other creators, other people, other podcasters, especially, because now, we're developing relationship. We get to know each other, we can help each other out. 

And this takes me to the idea and something I didn't even know I was doing until much, much later because somebody finally sort of like packaged it in a way that made sense to me, is this idea of digging your well before you're thirsty, right? If you're digging your well and you're already thirsty, it's too late. And what I mean by that, is a lot of us, sometimes the first time we reach out to somebody is when we need something. Right? That's you're digging your well when it's too late, right? 

Like, your friend who hasn't seen you in a while and you reach out to them, you're like, hey, I got this new eBook. I thought you'd like to check it out. Would you want to buy? It's like, like we haven't talked to each other for years. Like, what? And that's very, very common, right? 

Versus, one thing I’d like to do is every month or so, I'll go to My Messages app and I'll scroll all the way to the bottom. And then I'll just see, okay, who haven't I reached out to in a while? And I just want to reach out and just see how they're doing, see if they might need anything. And 99 percent of the time, they don't need anything but they so appreciate the fact that I had them on my mind. And it's interesting because it is kind of strategic and no, I'm not like hoping that two months later, I can then go back to them and then sell something.

But it opens up the possibility that if something were to happen, this is as Jordan Harbinger calls your layoff lifelines. These relationships that you're just keeping intact so that the moment something does happen and you do need help, you have somebody that you can come to. Or if you are launching something, for example, you can go to those people and even if they're not in your target audience, they're going to hear you out and maybe suggest you to others who are in your target audience, right? They're your advocates now. 

So, relationships are huge, man. Like, and that's why I think it's great what you're doing and connecting with others and connecting your own community together and you connecting with your community. That's a great sign.

Omar:

Absolutely. Along those lines too, I think that's a huge reason why I think Clubhouse is going to be so successful. You're able to build those relationships one on one and at scale. Like, I've never seen something build a relationship so easy.

Pat:

And in real time too. Like--

Omar:

Real time. Exactly.

Pat:

Live. But it's audio so you can just listen passively too. I think it's cool. I love it.

Omar:

I love the concept. Now, I want to dive in here to questions that I think, well actually, I personally have been following you for maybe three or four years now and I've never heard people ask you this, but this has always been on the back of my mind. I'm really curious what kind of person you were before Smart Passive Income or even you had your architectural degree. Like what kind of upbringing did you have, how was your childhood, what made you, was there a moment that you realized that you like entrepreneurship or was that after you got your architecture degree? Like, what kind of person were you when you were growing up?

Pat:

I did not know I wanted to be an entrepreneur until I got laid off. Because it was that moment that I realized that the path that I was told was the right path, was not the right path for me. I’ve done everything the way I was supposed to and this is taking me back to my childhood. Perfect grades all the way through college, graduated magna cum laude. When I didn't get a perfect grade, like a 97 percent of my math test, my dad would work me for three hours on the 3 percent I missed. 

So, I was trained. I was conditioned to be perfect. And so, that made it hard even harder when I got let go because I had done everything perfect and then I questioned whether or not that was true. Like, what did I do wrong? That was like the first thing I asked myself when I got laid off. What did I do wrong, right? How sad is that? It's like, even though we all know external factors, and I done everything the way it was supposed to and even more than I was asked of, I still questioned did I do enough? What's wrong with me? 

Omar:

That makes sense. 

Pat:

And we're always our own worst enemy, right? And so, on one hand, I'm very grateful that I was grown up with this tendency to strive for perfection and to look at things in all different kinds of ways so I can see all the angles and make sure I'm getting everything right. But at the same time, that did not help me when it was coming to entrepreneurship because it wasn't immediate that I wanted to start my business. I actually fell into a small state of depression. I was questioning what the heck I was going to do and thought that, you know, maybe I just, you know, my wife was going to leave me or whatever. Like all these crazy things. 

And then when starting the business, there were several moments like, oh, this page on my website is not perfect. And it's been eight hours learning how to do CSS and JavaScript to try and make it perfect when I could have just asked somebody to do the thing that would have took three minutes. Because I wanted it to be perfect and as a result, I did wait longer than I probably should have. I'm grateful I finally pushed through and I started to learn that actually failure and mistakes are a part of the plan. But that was not a part of my dictionary when I was a kid. 

Also, when I was a kid, you know, to go back even further, like I was born a big kid. Like, I was 11 pounds 12 ounces, which any moms out there or anybody listening to this who might know babies and sizes, that's a giant baby. Right? And I haven't grown much since then and I'm partly kidding. But like, really, I grew and grew and I got big and I was the biggest kid in the class until like second grade. Right? And I was getting ready to play football and lacrosse and all these things. And then, all my friends started to keep growing. They just kept going and then I stopped.

And then, eventually, in fourth grade, I was the smallest kid in the class. I don't know what happened. I don't know if like diet or I ate something weird or something in the water, I have no idea what happened. 

Omar:

Or the milk.

Pat:

Milk, right? It was really hard for me because I was sort of conditioned to believe I was big and strong, and then here I was, sort of like tiny, helpless and, you know, everybody was bigger than me. And then of course, that played a role in high school where I got picked on. I got bullied quite a bit for being different, for being small, for being weird. 

And so, thankfully, I found refuge in the marching band. And I didn't make this connection until later but think about the marching band. You were supposed to blend in and be like everybody else. Right? And that's probably why I loved it because all of us together were super nerds and the sort of outcasts in the school but also, we're supposed to blend in and you can't really pinpoint us because we're in our uniforms and we're just a unit. 

Omar:

Yeah, a tribe. 

Pat:

Exactly. So, unfortunately, I had low self-esteem. I never raised my hand in class. Extremely introverted. And all I could think about every day was just how sad my life was, really. And even though I had a lot of great things and amazing family and a lot of great friends who I could have been grateful for, I always thought about the cool kids in the class and how I'm not like them. How short I was and why I wasn't taller. Things I can't even control. That's all I thought about. And I tried way too hard to be liked and that definitely messed me up for a little bit for sure. 

And I'm very grateful for my experiences in college where I got to be on my own and connect with some amazing people and mentors there who really helped reshape the way I should be thinking about myself and appreciating who I am and using that to my own advantage.

Omar:

I had a really, really similar story to that too when I was younger, especially in middle school and early high school. I used to get picked on a lot and it was just, I guess I was like the fat kid back then, and I lost a ton of weight back in 10th grade. So I kind of, I joined the basketball team around then and I kind of normalized, you know. But those early stages of just being picked on kind of bought my self-esteem down, so the older that I grew, the more I kind of wanted to be fit into like the cooler kids. You know, I kind of wanted to be the kid who that people looked up to instead of people look down to, you know.

But I'm so grateful for those experiences like you are because in a way, it shapes you, you know. One, you can't kind of dwell on it, that, so I did, I didn't realize that until I got to college. And then two, that made me tougher. When I got to college, because I got picked on so much, it drove me to like push myself to the limit to get what I actually wanted out of life. And I did a 180, you know, and I became the person I am today and I love who I am today.

Pat:

Yeah. I love that. Thank you for that, for saying that. You know, it reminds me of also why I'm grateful for those experiences, is because now, I can serve others better because I can relate, right? I now have my own personal experiences and I can empathize with other people who have been bullied or people my audience who feel the perfectionism that's holding them back. Like, I can honestly speak truth when it comes to helping people in that way. And if I didn't have those experiences and everything was perfect then, you know, how might I be able to best relate to somebody else's struggle? I wouldn't. 

Omar:

Right.

Pat:

Right? And I think this empathy and this idea of like taking the things that happened in your past and reshaping it in a way that better helps your future is exactly the right the right way to go. I absolutely love that.

Omar:

Well, then, quick question here, right. And they say confidence comes from scale and becoming really, really good at something. Where was that, and especially coming from all this weight on your shoulders, like not only those five years of doing college and then trying to get a job and failing at that, but your entire life pretty much prepared you to go down the college path and get the job. I mean, that perfectionism that kind of stems from your childhood and then coming to the disappointment of not being able to land that job. 

I'm sure, even when you weren't able to land that job, you were thinking in your head panicking, like, am I going to be able to make it? Like, what's going to happen? I've got a wife. Like, I’ve got to do all this. So, where was that transition period, especially during your business, I would imagine is when it happened, when you stopped feeling that weight on your shoulders and you started actually feeling, okay, I got this and I'm super confident about what I'm doing now?

Pat:

Yeah. It was actually a very specific moment, and I have vivid memories of this. So, March 2009, my new architecture business was making $25,000 a month. And I just got into another architecture interview again just because I wasn't sure and, you know, flash in the pan, maybe this is going to end. This isn't what I went to school for. I didn't go to business school. Who am I to, you know, do this? I didn't even get a perfect score on the test. Like, am I even qualified? Etc., etc. Like, list after list, after excuse after excuse. 

And I got a call from my boss, the one who let me go, and he called just to check up on me. First thing he said was, hey, Pat, hope everything's okay. How are you doing? And I was like, actually, you know, things are actually doing pretty well, honestly. With this new thing and the LEED exam and all this stuff. And he's like, oh, that's really interesting but I have a proposal for you. I was like, sure. Okay. 

And he says, you know, I left the firm also and several of your co-workers left also and I decided to start my own. And I was able, through the relationships that I had with some of our clients, bring some of those clients with me. We have at least a year and a half worth of work and I would love to recruit you to come and work for me. I'm going to give you more pay than you had before. You're going to have your own office this time. You already have people who are waiting for you as a job captain to come in and start leading the team and these are clients that you've already worked with. And if you come, I'm going to give you a year's worth of rent for free.

Omar:

That's a great deal. 

Pat:

It's actually-- dude. A crazy deal. And I thought about it and I said, no, thanks. That was my gut reaction was to say no thanks and I said no thanks. And I hung up the phone. I think he was very surprised. And then I thought about it and I questioned why was that my gut reaction? Why, like on paper, that's perfect. But on paper, so was going to college, getting straight A's, getting this job, yet I still got let go. 

And I decided, from that point forward, that I wanted to have ultimate control as much as possible in terms of my future. And if I were to fail, I want it to be because of my own self, not because of other circumstances or working for somebody else. And so, that was the moment I remember that I committed to being an entrepreneur. And that felt so good and so scary at the same time. Right? Weight-lift off the shoulder but then another new weight on my shoulder of my family and like my wife was pregnant and all this stuff that was going to happen. 

And, again, just, the analogy I like to use is imagine, you know, we hear this analogy all the time of the corporate ladder. Climbing the corporate ladder, right? And I climb the corporate ladder. I started my school ladder, got to grab onto the college ladder, then I got to grab on to the corporate ladder. I was climbing high. And of course, the higher up you go on a ladder, you look down. What do you do? You grip tighter, right? And that's what I was doing. I was gripping tight to that.

But then, all of a sudden, there's this new ladder and it's right here on my side. I put one hand on that new ladder, I put my foot on that new ladder and now I'm sort of straddling both and I put another foot on that ladder and I just have like one hand left on the old ladder. You can't climb the new ladder anymore, if you're still holding on to that old one.

Omar:

That is a fantastic analogy.

Pat:

So, I let go. I let go. And I was excited. Even though I was fearful, I was also excited for where this could go. And it's gone way higher, gone way better. I've had more time with my kids, I've been able to make more money, I've been able to help more people as a result of letting go.

Omar:

And it's been a whirlwind since. That was, just so I have some context here, that was around 2010 was when you finally let go of that last rung in the ladder? Is that right?

Pat:

That was 2009, early 2009. Yeah. And of course, there were still obstacles along the way, still doubts along the way, things that were getting in the way. Like, there's always going to be obstacles on your climb up but that was when I was able to finally see the path on this new ladder.

Omar:

That's crazy. And so, 2009 up ‘til 2021 now. Where did you realize, and of course it was a slow progression, but where did you realize that you have finally become, and I know your humble self is going to be like I don't see myself that way but we all do, so where was it that moment where you realize that you were an icon? You were one of the greats like Gary Vee or Lewis Howes or any of these people that we look up to that may not see themselves that way either, but when did you realize that that was that?

Pat:

Thank you, by the way. And it's true, I often deflect that but at the same time, I've had people call me out on that. I've had people, really good friends of mine say, dude, you need to realize just what you've built here and who it is that you helped and the impact that you've had. You need to celebrate that, you need to-- and I needed to hear that because oftentimes, I just am already moving on to the next thing. And if you're not celebrating your milestones or the things that you've accomplished, how in the world are you going to continue to stay motivated, right?

So, I'm very grateful for that and I do know I'm in an amazing place where I can help a lot of people and I'm seeing in a certain regard and I'm just, again, have access to a lot of things that I wouldn't have had access to before. It's pretty crazy. 

But I remember, there were several moments that come to mind when you get asked that question. One moment was when I went to my first conference and I saw a person who had listened to my podcast in person. We got to meet. And I remember walking away from that conversation after, you know, 10 minutes in the hallway at these conferences. You know how it is. And I was like, wow. I feel like I just spoke to like an old friend. But this was the first time I ever met this person. And I think it's because the way they initiated the conversation, was as if we were already friends. And then I started thinking about, I was like, wow, we actually kind of are already friends. 

I'm just like recording from my home and then broadcasting it and these people are listening as if it was real time. And then, more and more people started to sort of come and to sort of talk to me in the same kind of way when I started to sort of be open and be conscious about that. And it really showed me that, like, I'm actually making an impact enough for people to be open enough to have me in their life in that way. Not just to listen for hours, but to treat me that way, to talk to me that way. It’s just was incredible. 

And this, I think in juxtaposition to my life as an architect, where working really hard, doing a lot of great things, never really getting things, never really getting recognized. I have my fingerprint on dozens of buildings around the United States and nobody will ever know that. And there's no way to prove it, really, unless I go into the, you know, the archives of the architecture firm and show you the blueprints but, I mean, you know, so that was one moment.

Another moment that was really interesting was when I spoke, again at another event, and again, I think that part of that is just this idea of the real connection. And when you see people in real life and you're connecting with people and you're meeting people in person, you actually feel the real energy and you feel it, right? 

So, I'm sure that online, there's a lot of things that have happened that could have proved to me that things were going well from the numbers, downloads, you know, money, whatever.

Omar:

You [inaudible 31:36] impact. 

Pat:

Exactly, exactly. And it's the people who I'm serving that mattered to me most. And I remember I was an event and I just written my book, Will It Fly. And Will It Fly became a Wall Street Journal best-selling book and that, as a self-published book, was an amazing feat. And of course, again, similarly, thanks, everybody. Appreciate it. Brush it off. Move on to the next thing. 

A couple of months later, I went to another event and a person came up to me who read the book really loved it and said I would, and he wanted my autograph. And I was like, that's so weird. Like, I'm just a regular, like I didn't get it. I don't sing music or play in a band or anything but they wanted my autograph and that just seems so weird to me. But the weirdest part was they said, well, I don't have my book. Can you sign my Amazon Kindle? And I was like, what the hell? Like, nobody does that unless XYZ. Everything we talked about, right? 

So, that was like another micro moment that showed me, wow, like there's a real connection here to the point where a person wouldn't mind like devaluing, in my opinion, because you're just writing on it now. I don't think my signature is worth anything. It's not like LeBron's signature or anything but--

Omar:

You never know. We might be collecting, trading your signature cards somewhere in ten years, right?

Pat:

Yeah, that’s hilarious. I had trading cards as a kid as a baseball player, like in Little League. You know, you'd pose and they take a photo and they’d put it on like a card or a magazine cover.

Omar:

Oh, I remember this.

Pat:

--and just like, remember that. That's probably as close as we're going to get to any of that stuff. But like it just was crazy to me, right? Like, those little micro moments are what teaches me more about the impact I've made than the numbers and the followers. And, you know, yeah, I see it and I'm appreciative of it.

I got on clubhouse just last week and I already have 13,000 followers. Like, that just doesn't happen. But at the same time, I'm also always focused on the individuals. And that's the other thing I've noticed about the way that I treat my business, is that although I know there's 250,000 email subscribers and 65 million downloads of the podcasts and such, it's like, to the listener or to the person who's receiving that email, that doesn't matter. Right? It's a one to one, right?

Or in the case of SPI now, there's many people on the team that are there to serve the audience, so it's like many people helping the individual. And I want that.

Omar:

I wanted to address one thing there and I think it's a common, I guess, brain block or, I guess, wall that a lot of small-time business owners put up in their head whenever they're first starting out on social media or doing anything similar to what you're doing, and that is engagement that scale.

So, what they start to think in their head, and I can attest to this firsthand, this is what I used to think too when I first started maybe about a year back, is that, oh, like what's the point of engaging because I'm not getting anything out of it directly? And it’s so slow, I got to talk to one person at a time. How am I ever going to build that up into anything? 

It's trying to scale that engagement and it's something—like, before I give my input on it, I really want yours. Like, to those people that are just starting out and they have that barrier block, that wall in their head from keeping them from engaging with any of their fans or followers or anyone that just even wants to connect with them, what would you tell them?

Pat:

To me, it's more valuable to connect with an individual than it is to connect with people at scale. Obviously, when we're selling things, we want to scale it up. And when we're developing social media strategies and what have you, like, the more the merrier, of course. But you can learn so much from a single conversation with one person. And when you're just starting out, you don't realize this because you feel behind. You see other people with larger audiences. You're like, oh, why not me? I should have started earlier, etc. 

You actually have an advantage starting later and starting small. You have the ability to make a direct one to one interaction with a higher percentage of your audience than I could ever because I just don't have the time and because there's so many other responsibilities that I have. Interestingly enough, when I first started out, guess what I did? I reached out to every single person who left a comment, I reached out to every single person who tweeted at me, I reached out to every email that came in. I always responded every single time, and that definitely helped put a good feeling into the audience of who I was and why I was doing what I was doing. Because I was doing the non-scalable things that actually matter. 

In addition, you have to realize that every interaction that you have with a member of your audience is a chance for you to learn about who it isn't that's in your audience. Next, when you learn about who it is that's in your audience, you now know them by name, you know their background or history or what have you. 

And now, you don't have to make up a person who is your perfect avatar, as we often say, your customer avatar. You actually have real people, who if you have an idea, you could go to, if you have a question, you could go to. I can't ask Joe, who's 35, driving nine to five every day, and has 2.5 kids with a white picket fence. Like, I can't ask Joe anything, but I can ask the person who I reached out to and that's kind of what I talked about my book Will It Fly.

It’s like, man, if you're just starting out, make those connections. Because most people will either hide behind their keyboard because they think, oh, it's online. I don't need to talk to anybody. And number two, you're going to make a deeper impact than the biggest celebrity could because you actually are taking the time to help people feel like they're being heard.

Omar:

Something that I've actually heard from someone that reached out to me the other day, and this is piggybacking on what you just said, there are people that it's easier for them to ask something from someone they don't know, and then there's people that are out there that it's easier for them to ask something of people they do know. And sometimes, there are people that can do both easily, sometimes, there are people that can do neither easily. 

So, a problem that I've heard about people trying to engage and actually build that relationship with someone, is that once they have that relationship with somebody, the people that fall into the second camp of not being able to ask as easily things from people they already know, they build that friendship with them and all of a sudden, they're afraid to sell them something or all of a sudden, they're afraid to ask them for anything. How would you think someone should fight against that, I guess?

Pat:

So, there was a phrase that I learned from one of my mentors James Schramko, and that is the following. We got to stop trying to be so interesting and start getting interested. And I find that when I sit down with somebody in my audience and I get so interested in what they're doing, what they're focusing on, or if it's a relationship with a colleague, let me learn as much as I can about what they're doing and what they might need help with. And if I can just get so interested, it always or usually always comes to a point where a person goes, oh, you know, like tell me about you. What do you have going on? Now it's open. 

And so, I also am afraid of just asking or being too pushy or being too aggressive. So, I get to the point where that person will ask for me because I've done what I can to help them first. Right? So, first. 

And this reminds me of Tim Ferriss, who wrote a book, very famous, we all know it, The 4-Hour Workweek. When I learned about how this was promoted, it's in a similar vein. He started going to conferences, meeting bloggers, creators, people, and he would ask so many questions. I know this firsthand because one of my coaches, Jeremy from Internet Business Mastery, one of the first podcast I ever listened to, Tim did this to them. 

Tim went to him and his partner Jason and he said, you know, hey what do you got going on? Tell me about the podcast. Like, what's going on? I'd love to learn more about it. Why do you do a podcast? Like, just getting so interested in all this stuff to a point where Jeremy goes, well, tell me what you got going on. Boom. Oh well, I'm developing this book called The 4-Hour Workweek. And of course, it's a good hook. 4-Hour Workweek? Like, what? Tell me more. And it's like, more and more open now. Right? 

So, he's gotten his permission. This is how when he launched his book in 2007, 2008, everybody was talking about it because he already earned that publicity by getting so interested in what other people were doing. And Tim was on Jeremy and Jason's podcast. Like it just keeps going because Tim was so interested in what other people were doing. So, that would be the strategy, in my opinion.

Omar:

It's a fantastic strategy. As you were saying that, I thought of something that happened to me quite recently as well. I was on Clubhouse and just connected with somebody and we took the conversation off to like a Zoom call and started talking and stuff. And he's an artist, a Jazz musician, actually, in Washington DC. He wanted me to come on to his radio show, which I thought was super cool, so we started talking about that and just conversing about what he does in radio and whatnot.

And he kept bringing up this thing of saying, hey, I just don't have enough time to post on social media. I just don't have enough time to create content. I have a book coming out and stuff. I just don't have enough time to do anything. And then, he turned the question around and asked me what I do. And I'm in the business of saving people time creating content for them. So, content generation and content repurposing. And it just kind of fell into place. And he said, hey, why don't you work for me? And I ended up getting a client simply through that friendship that I made, without even the context of having, hey, I'm going to work for this guy.

Pat:

Exactly. Just, oh, what do you do? Oh, no way. I need somebody like that. We should do something. Because now, we don't have to go through the awkwardness of finding random people, we both know each other already. There you go. And then, again, another, you know, nudge toward Clubhouse there too.

Omar:

And to podcasts as well, which I think is going to bring me perfectly into the next topic here. I think podcasts are a fantastic way to build relationships one on one with people of all industries, of all situations. Because something I've realized, is that everyone wants to be on a podcast and I don't know why yet. Maybe because there's so few podcasts compared to YouTube channels or something, or maybe because it's like being on a radio show. There's just that appeal to it. But everyone wants to be on a podcast. 

So, you, being the, what I consider godfather of podcasts, I wanted to start asking you some obscure podcasting strategies that you don't mention so much in your YouTube channels and stuff. Like, something that I started using heavily. Something that you taught me, personally, was the whole speak pipe thing of going out and reaching out to Facebook groups and doing quarterly shows where I get people on for small snippets of an episode. And I have my first one actually coming out two weeks from now, which is super cool. 

But in terms of just like really obscure podcasts and strategies that can A, help you land on bigger shows or help you get bigger guests. And by the way, the way I landed Pat Flynn was actually going on his live stream and I love going on his live stream anyways, and I just made the ask. So, there's one obscure strategy right there.

And 2, like leveraging and growing your audience and then leveraging the kind of guests that you actually get on your show. What are some obscure strategies that you've learned throughout your years?

Pat:

Yeah. I mean, number one, I found, I mean there's so many different strategies, right? And I think it's important to understand you don't need to do all of them. And you might have your own style and your own way or the certain number of them that will work for you and maybe not for others. But there's been a lot of things that I've taught, and it's hard for me to answer this question because I literally share everything, but I'm going to do my best to bring you some heat here. Maybe stuff that you haven't heard anywhere else. 

Number one, I love inviting people on my show. But I'm not necessarily in it just to get the celebrities on board. In fact, the episodes that have the most downloads are the ones that don't have the celebrities, but the people who represent my audience. In fact, people in my audience coming on the show, who I can either coach, who I can help, or who have a great story to tell and it always makes me look even better. And that's the cool fun thing about it. They always will, if they're a part of your audience, they're going to be very appreciative. 

I had an episode come out once where I invited three of my students on, and they each gave me like the most beautiful, natural, organic testimonials for my courses, and that episode accounted for over $150,000 of sales for that course. And never did I ask for any sort of feedback about the course, they all did it naturally. Right?

Another episode that was very popular was 121 with Shane and Jocelyn Sams, who are two teachers from Kentucky who had once listened to the podcast. They built a business as a result of listening to the show, taking action, and now they own a seven-figure business. And that helps inspire people because these people are very humble. They got that Kentucky accent and they're just so humble and very relatable. 

So, inviting people like people in your audience will make people feel like they're a part of something that is also theirs. The community aspect of it, right? So, I think, as much as we want to be on other big shows or have other big shows come on our show, I wouldn't discount the people who are already listening to your show and how important they can be to help and bring other people in. 

Another thing that I often recommend is to go to Facebook groups or LinkedIn groups. Find the admins of those groups that are related to your audience and the recommendation here is to-- you don't even need to join the groups, by the way, to find out who the admins are, but they're admins for a reason. They care about this community. They have something to say about that topic or they just want to bring those people together or if they wouldn't have done it. But as a result of that, we know that they would be more likely to say yes to coming on a podcast.

And these people often don't have this opportunity. They are very much hidden behind the scenes and they also want to look good in front of their people. So, I'm going to offer my platform for that to happen. And so, one strategy, more specifically that I do, is I'll go to ten different groups about a particular topic and I'll find the founders or the admins or moderators there and I'll ask them. Just, hey, can you answer this one simple question for me? What's one thing you wish you knew before you started watercolor painting or something, right? 

And that collect each of their answers using the tool that you mentioned, speak pipe, and I drop all that into a single episode. And now this episode with ten different answers from ten different communities, the chances that these creators or Facebook admins or moderators or founders, for them to share the show with their people, it's like almost 100 percent. Because you've made them look great and you're offering them that space to be on a radio show like thing. 

And of course, we always talk about that when we're on the radio or on TV. Right? So, we will share that and then they will share it with their community, and no longer are you getting sort of like the cold shoulder of you going in there yourself and spamming. It's actually the person who had created the space and has earned the trust of that audience telling people to go listen to your show. And you can build a huge audience from there, which is really cool. 

Another thing that I think is important is collaborations. This is very big on YouTube where you have another youtuber come on and then at the same time, they come on your show and you come on theirs. I think that that has to happen more on podcast. I just don't think it happens as much, but you can both grow together. You can share audiences together.

Omar:

Like a podcast swap.

Pat:

Exactly. A podcast swap. And a great easy way to know where to do this would be to if you were to go to your podcast page on Apple podcast on your desktop or on your mobile device. If you scroll down, you'll see something that says related podcasts. That's the equivalent of Amazon's if people who bought this also bought this. So, you can actually see the audiences that kind of overlap already. You can go to them and say, hey, we share the same exact target audience. We should do something together, right? And you can have a swap and that becomes a great point of conversation to start to have a big guest come on your show or vice versa. Because you have that thing in common and, you know, your audiences overlap. 

Another thing I think that could be really neat, is the ability for podcasters to go a little bit further with adding more flavor into their podcast. Because of the rush of podcasts right now, there's so many things that sound the same. Interviews that sound the same. And if that's the case, you got to ask great questions, which I think you're doing a great job at, just to make it a little bit different. But might you be able to use this audio platform to add background noise, add sound effects, or create a different kind of experience that people can't get anywhere else. And I think that's really important to understand too. So, I mean, I can talk for days--

Omar:

Something I saw that you do with your RODE, Your RODE Pro or whatever it's called. The RODE--

Pat:

Yeah. The RODEcaster Pro, I can put like sound effects and things like that in there, which is really fun. And I do that on the livestream because it's interactive and engaging and different. It creates pattern interrupts. And then finally, another strategy that could work is like you know how you come out with the same weekly schedule, like we know, once a week or twice, whatever the schedule is and you're supposed to stay consistent. Every once in a while, like, just dropping maybe a five-episode blitz about a particular topic. Hey guys, this week, something special. We’ve got five episodes from five different creators about all the things you need to know about blank. 

And there's just like this pattern interrupt, this change. Like, whoa, where did this come from? And then, you get all the most in-depth stuff and it becomes this big event and you can do giveaways around it and get a lot more reviews and a lot more downloads during that time. That'll create a really nice spike even after the beginning after launching your show. And that allows for more people to come into the ecosystem. 

Maybe you, again, have like a, you know, Facebook advertising week. Every day for this week, just this week alone, we're going to have one amazing person who knows Facebook and they're going to come in with their best strategies. And then at the end of the week, you know, we're going to have a giveaway or something together. And again, yes, it's different and that's why I think it works.

Omar:

How much have you seen these pattern interrupts actually help out with what you're doing?

Pat:

They always work. I mean, they're always different. I get people who will, for example, I did an episode where I recorded on the streets of New York. I was in New York to do a publicity thing for the switch pod, which is one of my inventions. And Ramit Sethi, who is the author of iwillteachyoutoberich.com was in New York and I said, hey, can I interview you for the podcast? He's like, yeah. Should we go to WeWork or, you know, where should we go? And I was like, No, let's do it on the streets of New York. He's like, yeah, I like that because it'll be different. 

And so, I was walking around the streets of New York with a shotgun microphone and we were just passing it back and forth, walking in between people. You could hear the street sounds and the sirens and honking of the horns and the rustle and the bustle of New York City and it felt like you were there. And I got so many emails. I still continue to get emails from people who were like, whoa, that was so different. So cool. Like, you should do more of that. I can't really go anywhere right now but I would love to do more of that.

But doing something different often will get people to reset. And when you can get people to reset, they often will, you know, get deeper into the stuff that you have to offer.

Omar:

More invested. I get it.

Pat:

Yup.

Omar:

Makes sense. It's like causing an emotional spike, right, almost. Like, you hear like the roller coaster of emotions and the more that there's emotional variability in something that you're doing, the more investment that it actually takes for somebody, just from a psychological sense from what I'm thinking.

Pat:

Yeah. I mean, on that line, think about if you were to have a spouse and you go to bed with them every night and you say, good night, honey. I love you. Goodnight, honey. I love you. Goodnight—like, every night, same thing. Right? It doesn't it doesn’t mean less overtime, but it kind of does because it's just repetitive and expected. But it's when you say it at 3:48 on a random Tuesday for literally no reason, those are the small special moments in a relationship that matter. Those are the things that get talked about. Those are the things that are remembered because it's different. It's a pattern interrupt.

Omar:

It's very, very true. You know, it's cool like, and I always kind of saw this in YouTube, but I've always considered you a very strategic person in a humble way. Whereas, like you're very humble, you come off very humble, you're very down to earth, yet you have all these things planned. You're very strategic. You know what moves to make, when to make them and that comes from experience in business. And that takes business acumen, right? 

So, in the beginning, whenever, and I'm sure you made tons of mistakes just like everybody has, where was that moment where you really started getting like the sixth sense for business and became less concerned if your move was going to be right or wrong? Because that's kind of like where I am right now, right? I think this is something that I could relate to and started going more towards, okay, like I know just from experience, this is probably the right move to make so I'm going to go there and with full confidence, full strike.

Pat:

You know, I don't know if there's necessarily a specific event, like the point at which I knew I was going to become an entrepreneur. But I do know that I definitely have a different mindset than when I did when I first started in regards to commitment to certain decisions. And I think, what I've come to realize and perhaps this is the answer, is that as long as you're doing something, there is no wrong choice. I think there are choices that are better than others, but I learned so much and sometimes even more from my failures than I do from if I were to make the right move. 

So, I appreciate whatever happens where I would feel very down as if I was so scared or so fearful to do something that I didn't do it at all. You know, I'd much rather live a life full of oh wells than a life full of what ifs. Because those oh wells can at least give me some experience and some knowledge that I can take and move forward with, versus the oh wells, well it's like you don't ever know exactly what's going to happen. 

Of course, we can stack things in our favor and our education and our experience will help us make better, smarter, more calculated decisions moving forward and I'm definitely a very calculated person. But at the same time, I also am like, okay, that's the direction we're going. I'm committed to it. I'm not going to question it. We're going to see what happens. Because I could question it the entire way through, which will stop me from doing it or have it happened much slower than it needs to. 

And I think that what helps me and what guides me is trying to be as efficient as possible. And as I've tried to learn how to become more efficient, why did I want to become more efficient? Because I have two kids. Every minute, I feel like I'm not being efficient-- and there's a balance, right? Like, you could be crazy efficient but run yourself crazy also at the same time. So, there's a balance there obviously. 

But every sort of wasteful moment, I feel, is time taken away from my kids and that is time that I'm never going to get back, therefore I must be efficient. So, in becoming efficient, I have to meet deadlines, I have to make decisions. I cannot determine whether or not this is the right move and think about that all the time, because then nothing's going to get done. And again, just shipping it and then seeing what happens is more valuable to me than doing nothing.

Omar:

At this point, you probably know how to fight all the fires in business. So, you go and then if you need to pivot, you pivot.

Pat:

Yeah. Pivoting is the ultimate strategy that entrepreneurs have. And if you don't embrace that moment and if you don't embrace the fact that pivoting means you've probably done something wrong, well then, yeah, you might not ever do anything wrong, but that probably means you're not doing anything at all.

Omar:

It's a very good, a good point. It's very Gary Vee asked too in my head. One of the first people that actually--

Pat:

Yeah. Without the f words.

Omar:

That's right. You're like the anti- Gary Vee.

Pat:

Dude, people say we're opposite but we're the same. I love that too. Because he's super high energy, very aggressive and I'm the opposite. That just goes to show there's mentors for all different kinds of people. But, you know, you could find your guy or girl.

Omar:

That's super cool. I want to ask one more piece of applicable advice. And so, we go into the last segment of the podcast episode here, right. So, you've kind of built your brand and you first started up on YouTube. I remember watching your original chalk green screens or chalkboard on the internet type videos where they were just like, hey, like this is Smart Passive Income, this is how you make passive income, to where you are now. I mean, like you're using a DSLR, I think, to record. 

Pat:

Yeah. Yeah.

Omar:

But you built your brand over in like 10, 11 years now. If you would just like recommend somebody like myself or someone who's even just getting started, like a lot of my audiences, to just kind of go all in on some platforms, build their brand and where they should focus their energies, what would you say there?

Pat:

I would say use this question to your advantage. If this were easy, what would it look like? Too often, we overcomplicate everything. You don't need to start out with the best equipment. As long as you're sharing the lessons you want to learn or are paying attention to what it is that you are helping your audience with, and you have your why in mind, then just make it easy on yourself, right? Maybe do just start with your phone and have it at that.

I mean, if you look at all of old MrBeast’s videos, he just recorded them on his phone. And now, he's like 50 million subscribers. Mkbhd, his first 100 subscribers were for his first or his first 100 videos were for his first 100 subscribers. It wasn't the best quality. You get better over time, but you can't get better unless you put something out there, and you can't put something out there unless you sort of just let it go sometimes, so, and not over complicate it. So, if this were easy, what would it look like? Use that to guide your decisions moving forward.

Omar:

And that includes platforms as well. Like, if it was, I think the easiest platform right now to gain organic reach would probably be like Tiktok or Instagram reels, just in terms of applicable platforms that people could slowly build a brand on. It doesn't necessarily have to be YouTube like you were on.

Pat:

I mean, if you're not good in front of a camera, then why fight it? Right? That's not easy. So, use, do podcasting, do Clubhouse. Right? I would follow your energy and not force something at the start. So, I'm not going to drop a specific platform because they all work. You just got to focus and make it happen and provide what the audience wants and learn about the psyche of your viewer and you can go from there.

Omar:

It's a good point. So, making those relationships and don't fight an uphill battle, rather, whatever works with your energy stacks away that you should be going.

Pat:

Yeah, exactly.

Omar:

Makes sense. All right. So, moving on to the last segment here now in the podcast. I want to ask, what is in the future for you, Pat? I mean you're nearing your 365-day point of doing livestreams. So, what's after that? Do you have any books that are coming out or anything similar? Courses? Anything along those lines?

Pat:

There's always things happening, for sure. We have just recently launched SPI pro, which is our membership community and that's been amazingly fulfilling in helping a lot of people. People who are missing the connections that they might have had at events and the ability for people to who have businesses connect and support each other and get accountability and join mastermind groups and get direct access to me and my team. 

We have a new course coming out this year, the one and only course that we'll be launching, which is a course about creating online courses, interestingly enough. Because we have about eight now. We've earned over $4 million in online earnings from just online courses alone and we've had a lot of people ask us. 

We've always sent people elsewhere. And now, we're developing our own system now that we've nailed that down and have gotten very efficient with it as well, and we sort of know what works and what doesn't. 

In addition to that, you know, I have a new book that I'm going to be starting to focus on very soon and it's sort of a productivity book but it definitely is a lot more than that. And this speaks to where my endgame is, is related to education and helping kids learn entrepreneurship and trying to step into that arena. And I've already done so in little bits and pieces here and there, but I feel like SPI and what I'm doing now is sort of a launching platform for a lot of that stuff. And I can't wait. I can't wait. I'm so excited.

Omar:

It sounds like what Elon Musk is. Elon Musk is trying to do as well with entrepreneurship and education for children. 

Pat:

Yeah. I mean, I'd love to connect with him at some point on that, for sure.

Omar:

Yeah. That's actually what I wanted to ask you before we wrap it up here. Gary Vee’s Nordstar is buying a team and that's his what keeps driving him, Elon Musk is changing the entire education system of the entire world. What's your like North driving star that's really driving you that final goal?

Pat:

Yeah. It's incorporating entrepreneurship into school curriculums (I.e., reading, science, math, entrepreneurship). I think whether you become an entrepreneur or not, it doesn't matter. But those skills, learning how to learn from your mistakes, learning how to collaborate with others, learning how to empathize with who it is that you're serving. Like, these are skills, presentation skills. These are all things that matter no matter what you end up doing. So, that's where, that would be like a win with that specific anthropic community, so I can learn more and see what I can do down the road.

Omar:

Cool. One final question here. And this will be the final question that I ask every single person that comes on to my show and I'm really curious what your answer for it would be as well. If there was a billboard in space and you had the chance to put anything on that billboard so that the entire planet could see it, it had to be just a few sentences, what would it say?

Pat:

It would say three words: Embrace Your Weird. And what I mean by that is, you are the only person in the world like you. And when you forget that, we often will not feel great about ourselves to the points that we've made earlier about being bullied and having low self-esteem. And when you can understand that, what makes you weird is what makes you unique, you're going to understand that your vibe is going to attract your tribe. And you'd be able to build a community, you'd be able to be happier, you'd be able to be supported and also support others at the same time, and weird is great. So, embrace your weird.

Omar:

Love that.

Pat:

Thanks. I appreciate that.

Omar:

Thank you so much for coming on today, Pat.

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