Tales of the Traveling Musician and How You Can Make a Business out of Your Passion with Kia Orion | TNE064

It’s been said that if you do what you love, you’ll never work a day in your life. A lot of us - if not all - aspire to live a life where we’re happy with what we do and not slaving away from 9 to 5 making someone else’s dream come true. But let’s get real: chasing one’s dreams oftentimes feels like a gamble and not everyone is willing to take that risk. It took an inexplicable health issue for today’s guest to stop participating in the rat race and go his own way. Kia Orion sold everything that wasn’t bolted to his apartment floor and flew off to Asia. There, he taught English and tried dropshipping. Unfortunately, neither pursuits resonated with him.

But one thing he was certain of was his love for music. He loves writing songs! So he took that passion and tried to make something out of it. Now, he’s got a thriving creative business that’s entirely in a league of its own. Kia may have had a rough start but he’s not about to drop his passion-fueled creative business any time soon. 

Show Notes:

[1:42]Kia Orion’s Road To Becoming A Traveling Artist

[5:45]Kia Orion Takes His Music To SkillShare

[13:22]The Importance Of Not Being Complacent 

[20:08]How To Get Whoever You Want To Come Onto Your Show For Free

[32:58]The Never-Ending Jester To King Cycle

[34:50]The Importance Of Recognizing The Hierarchy Of Mentors

Kia Orion's Social Media:
 
Instagram - @kiaorion
YouTube - Kia Orion
Website - https://www.kiaorion.com/

Omar's (Host) Social Media:

Instagram - @nomadables

TikTok - @nomadables

Facebook Group - NOMADABLES - Accountability & Growth Community for Remote Workers- Perfect to meet fellow online entrepreneurs, remote workers, and digital nomads.

YouTube - Omar Mo

LinkedIn - Omar Mo Nomads Cast

Twitter - @nomadables

Pintrest - @nomadables

Clubhouse - @pods

WEBSITE: https://www.nomadables.com/

Transcript

TNE 64 -  Tales of the Traveling Musician And How You Can Make A Business Out Of Your Passion With Kia Orion 

Omar

You ever sit back and think if it’s possible to make a business out of what you love? Maybe you’re really into pink poodles or pool noodles. Let me tell you. 100% there’s a way for you to make money with that. Maybe you’re into sports and cigars? Ah, another rhyme. 

Let me tell you: 100% there’s a way for you to make money with that passion. The truth is though, statistically speaking, 99% of you listening to this right now, will never take a leap of faith to do it. And to be honest, I couldn’t do it myself at first. 

I’m passionate about business, travel, and accumulating experiences. And that’s not something I realized until, maybe about, four or five years ago. But it wasn’t until 2019 that I really burned all the ships at the harbor, metaphorically speaking, and went all in.

What came out of it though? 

Well, I leave for Mexico in two weeks with a thriving business at my fingertips. And I 100% believe that you can do whatever the hell you want in life too. Just do your research, think outside the box a little, and really, really go after it.

Today’s guest is someone who reached out to me after listening to a few episodes. And we really vibed. I deeply respect what he’s made for himself because he’s modeled his lifestyle after his passions. Our guest today is Kia Orion, a traveling musician who makes awesome music and teaches others to do the same. So be sure to check out some of his music. I left a link to his site in the show notes. 

Now join us while we dive into how Kia took what he loves and turned it into a thriving business. By the end of the episode, you’ll hopefully have the inspiration to do the same. 

Alright, Kia, welcome to The Nomadic Executive, man. It is a pleasure to have you on and finally connect.

Kia Orion

Brother, thank you so much for having me. It’s an honor to be here. 

Omar

Absolutely. Why don’t we give my audience a little bit context about how we two met?

Kia Orion

Sure, so… I found your podcast. I’m a big fan of, kind of the… digital nomad, space… online business space, found your pod and was actually pretty blown away because you’ve had some significant guests on there. And just being a digital nomad myself and kind of, I don’t want to say obsessed, but we can say slightly obsessed with kind of like the online business space, self-improvement, minimalism, etc. 

Just scrolling through the episodes’ like, dope. This one sounds dope, this one sounds cool. And you seem like a rad dude. 

Omar

It’s good my titles are sticking out then.

Kia Orion

Yeah, your titles are sticking out for sure. You're killing the titles. And so I was just, I was like, let me shoot my shot. So I just slid in the DM over email. And I was like, “Hey Mo, dig the pod, got some ideas for you on some stuff that we could share. And I’ve been doing this for about three years. So I feel like I got a couple gems to drop today to your audience.

Omar

Awesome. And what I like, too, is that you have a very unique angle, right? So you're probably the first traveling artist that I meet that survives the way that you do and I won’t to talk about. I won't spoil it just yet. We're gonna dive into that here in a minute. But the way that you do it is much different than anybody else that I've seen do it, right? 

Everyone works off their laptop on this life. But everyone's doing some sort of like either agency or something as simple as dropshipping, or some sort of service-based business, digital marketing…  

You hear about this all the time, but what you're doing is unique. And I love that and that's why I'd love to have you on. So let's go ahead and dive right in there, okay?

Kia Orion

Sure.

Omar

Tell my audience what you do.

Kia Orion  

Sure. So I'm an artist. My tagline is, I'm obsessed with making dope music and teaching you how to make your own. So that's kind of the line that I live by. That’s my mantra. And I always was super into making music and we can jump into the backstory a little bit later on. But pretty much I started in dropshipping. 

So I was like, I pretty much… I worked as a quote unquote, like a, I tried to be an adult for a while none of those jobs worked out. I was bartending or substitute teacher. You name it, I did it. That was a past life. 

And I got this really strange health diagnosis somewhere. Maybe I was like, 26. And the doctors couldn't figure it out. And it was just enough of a wake up call that kind of kicked my ass around that time I was getting ready for our workweek. So I was like, dude, I just need to live life. You get one.  Whether it's something weird in medical or you get hit by a bus tomorrow, you never know when you're going to go. So let's get after it.

Omar  

Did you figure out what it was? Just out of curiosity? 

Kia Orion  

No, still don't know. It's a genetic blood disorder. I got all these crazy tests run. And so yeah, they're like, you could go out of it. Or you could randomly start hemorrhaging in your brain. I was like, “Oh...word?”

Omar  

No middle ground. Just black or White. Here we go.

Kia Orion  

I was like: Oh, okay, that's what's up. Let me get my ass to Asia. I'd always wanted to travel, never did. So I started, I pretty much sold, pulled the move solo, everything that was bolted to the floor of the apartment, got someone to take over my lease and got a job online teaching English for...I did it only maybe like a month. 

That was like, I got the diagnosis. I've been wanting to like, come out of the matrix for a while, I just... that was kind of the push that you know you kind of like… like it's months. And then the one final act that gets you out. 

And so, I started teaching English but I wasn’t making a ton of money. But enough. But I was like, yo, let me start dropshipping. I've been listening to some digital nomad podcasts. Yours was around then, unfortunately so I didn't have Mo’s gems, but...

Omar  

Let me get this straight before you move on. 

Kia Orion

Yeah.

Omar

Before you…so did you start working before you left? Or did you start working the moment that you went to Asia?

Kia Orion

So I wanted to make sure that at least I had some income before I got there. So I started teaching English, I got a job online teaching English, $18 an hour for about three, four weeks before I even went. So from selling all my sh*t, I had a cushion of maybe a grand and a half. 

But for me, it was more important because I knew I...who knows how fast money is? It’s my first time really going to Asia. So I just want to have a little bit of income coming in beforehand. But I….but long story short, I was trying dropshipping, wasn't going anywhere I was, I mean, it's a really cool business idea if you're into it but I'm just obsessed with music. 

So I was like Kia, why don't I try to find a way to run an online business from sh*t you actually know, stuff you're actually passionate about? And that's to me, music. So always kind of been doing my art on the side. And that's really my main bread and butter. That's true. That I love obviously, like most artists. But finding a way to fund that through the art as well. So that's where the biz came through.

Omar  

So tell me the transition here. So you were in Asia, where did the music start coming in? And where did that become your full time gig?

Kia Orion  

A thousand. So I wasn't one of those people [that] was like, “I started and it took off.” It took me about two years. I was probably teaching English online for two years in Chiang Mai. Started in Chiang Mai because I knew there's a community there. But I think the difference is, when you're and you being a trailer yourself, and also feeling grateful to be an American in this regard, you don't…

If you're making $20 an hour, and, but your apartment’s only $230, like, you don't have to work 40 hours a week. So I was, just from the rip, I was able to only work maybe 10 hours a week on English, and then dump the rest into these business ideas, and just fail. 

And that was it. I say, I really got my MBA. Like, I didn't go to the university, but like from trying business ideas and like, failing for like two years. I was just, like, trying so many angles. But that's putting in the reps, right? That's really what you got to do. So that was kind of how it… It took about two years. 

And then I had been trying to sell beats and I had some success here and there. I was tired of working with rappers. Because everybody's 18, works at McDonald's, wants to be Drake. 

Omar

Right.

Kia Orion

And so I was like, I was like, “What's an angle I can take?” And my buddy Spencer had started, runs in time…. making a… he was a guitarist and an artist as well, teach me a how to play guitar. And so I didn't want to do like, I was tired of trading my time for money, which you hear about all the time. Of like, I'll do a one-on-one lesson. And so I was like, how can I package this up into courses? Into coaching? 

And that was when I kind of productized the service of teaching people how to make beats. And it was also… switched the customer from 18 year olds who want to be Drake to like, grown men who actually have money to spend or interested in art. That's when things really started to take off for me. So it was...

Omar  

How long ago was that transition there?

Kia Orion  

So that was about a year and a half.

Omar  

So a year and a half ago?

Kia Orion  

Yeah, a year and a half ago. 

Omar

I see. Interesting. Damn. So, what...what are the first steps that you took there for actually creating the course and stuff? I'm sure when you first came out with a course you're like, “Damn, now I have this product. What do I do with it?”

Kia Orion  

Mo, this ain't your first rodeo, baby. This ain't your first rodeo. Every rookie mistake in the book spent so much time making it. Shot it, it looked great in the studio. Edited it, spent hours, wrote the whole funnel out. And then I was like: “So, where are the customers?”

Failed so hard. You know, it's like a typical rookie mistake. You, you know, validate the idea first, and then I was like, “Oh, so maybe that's what I should do next time.” But needless to say, I then took it and I had a buddy who was doing well on Skillshare at the time. And so I've wanted to do a... obviously your own course. High ticket. Because then you have control over it. But if you have no audience, it can be hard to leverage, if you don't have ad money, etc. Do you have a community? 

So that's when he's like, you know, I know you want to sell high ticket. He's like, you can still make money if you just do Skillshare, like the low ticket route at first. It's like build your audience and then see where it goes from there. 

And I’m like, okay, because I put so much time and effort into it. I got a stroke of luck. And Skillshare was like, “Oh, this is a dope course.” And so they gave me a little bit of a promo on the platform.

Omar  

Interesting. For free?

Kia Orion  

Yeah. Yeah, so they have these like, like featured courses. Or if they like what, like what you're doing, they'll kind of...they run, you know, they run their sh*t. So they'll kind of bump you into algorithms, whatever it is. 

Omar

That’s cool.

Kia Orion

And so I got some... Yeah, so I got some initial heat from their kind of promo. There wasn't a lot of music production courses going on at the time. And so I caught that initial wave started to build the community eventually. 

And then I was like, “Okay, I'm gonna do a mini course every week.” Because I love making beats, I was like, I'm already doing it, why not just document it, and find ways? Because in those platforms, it's less about like one super amazing course and like these small kind of bite-sized pieces? And I'm just prolific. So I just made a course a week pretty much for a year. And that all kind of, eventually… 

I then got smart about how to leverage that into my own audience and having free downloads and stuff like that. And now I can do both. But now it's... Let me tell you, it's a lot easier to launch a product when you have an audience who wants it. We’ll put it like that.

Omar  

That’s really interesting, because you use something like Skillshare to build that audience up. So people were already wanting to learn something on that platform, and you use that leverage to build up your actual course. 

Whereas the most standard way that people go to build up their courses is some sort of social media platform, they go all in on it and then they spam it there, right? And not everybody wants to learn from you there. But everybody does want to learn from you from Skillshare. So what kind of like student numbers were you getting on Skillshare?

Kia Orion  

That's a great point, Mo. And I think part of it is, you're right. It's because, again, it’s because I tried, I tried the... I tried the others. I tried YouTube. I would love to have a dope YouTube channel, because it's public. That's one of the really dope benefits about YouTube is anyone can see it. It's just free resource. It's amazing. 

And so I've worked on... haven't been able to get my YouTube quite cracking yet, but it's a work in progress. But I was seeing... it’s strange because for them, it was more about minutes watched. So I saw kind of the steady climb in numbers. And it was maybe like a thousand minutes a day? A thousand minutes watched in a day, something like that?

Omar  

They don’t tell you how many students you have?

Kia Orion  

They do. But it's, it's less like daily. it'll be almost like you have to log in to the teacher thing. And then you'll see students in and so. But you aren't, it's strange you aren’t paid by student, you’re paid by watch time on Skillshare.

Omar

Yeah.

Kia Orion

You know, and so the metrics, those are kind of what I would follow. Is… is more of the watch time. and it just kind of slowly increased. And then when the pandemic hit, obviously everything kind of shot through the roof because everybody's at home. So I saw kind of like steady growth. I was like, “Okay, this is cool.”

Omar  

Everyone wanted to be a DJ or learn. Man, I even thought about it at one point. I know I did. 

Kia Orion  

When everything goes south, you’ll go, “F*ck it, I’ll just be a DJ, bro.”

Omar

Yeah, exactly. That’s exactly the thought, man. I swear to God, so many new DJs were born during this pandemic period.

Kia Orion  

Who are you telling, Mo? Look at the numbers and I can tell. 

Omar  

So what kind of growth did you see during the pandemic? Like, you were doing this pre-pandemic, so like 2x, 3x?

Kia Orion  

About 2x.

Omar

That’s nice. 

Kia Orion

It was nuts. And so it was cool. But it also kind of kicked my ass into this gear of… It's a blessing and a curse, double edged sword of being like: okay, now I've got this attention, but I wasn't ready for it. I hadn't built the infrastructure of any court, any sort of funnel, my own email, etc, etc. 

I just had, kind of, I was doing, you know, baby steps, poco poco. And then it came out of nowhere, I was like: okay, let's, let's double down and, like, get it. So that was when we went to overdrive. And now I've been able to leverage that into my own boot. I call it Beat Bootcamp. It's like my own, like, private coaching thing.

Omar

Beat Bootcamp? I like the ring of that. 

Kia Orion

But like, you know? You know, trying to, trying to get clever with the alliteration. So, but you're right. Here's the thing, though, the interesting part, is the way Skillshare pays out is it's through, it's like a pool. So like, the more teachers there are, then you split the funds, of course. 

Omar

Right.

Kia Orion

And so even though the watch time doubled, the attention and traffic doubled, the revenue didn't double because… 

Omar  

Because you have another teacher?

Kia Orion  

Because you have, you have more, you have more people than joining as teachers. Because just as many people who wanted to be a DJ and learn, also said, “Maybe I'll teach pottery now,” or, or whatever. And so...

Omar  

Explain that a little bit to me, because I lost you there. So you say there's a pool, and that spreads out the payments that way, right? But I thought, so you're putting out these courses yourself. And your watch time is going up. So how are you spreading yourself thin to other people? I thought…

Kia Orion  

Sorry, Mo.  So maybe I, maybe I didn't articulate that well. So I… the watch time doubles but the revenue didn't double.

Omar  

Yeah. Why?

Kia Orion  

Because more people are joining the platform as teachers. Because...

Omar  

So they lower the amount of revenue that you can get if the platform becomes more saturated, because the entire platform has a pool of money that they distribute to?

Kia Orion  

Exactly. So the more teachers that join, then obviously, the less you're going to earn...

Omar  

That's kind of messed up.

Kia Orion  

So it's crazy. So. So it's strange, oh, it's almost…  It is, and it's…

Omar  

It’s not that scalable. You're limited to, you're limited to the number of people that are actually consuming the classes on that platform.

Kia Orion  

Exactly. And you're also at their kind of, beck and call and is every kind of artist, you know, who's maybe slightly neurotic as is. Because I'm kind of you can tell kind of just shoot from the hip and rock with, you get content strikes. 

And so I have two out of three, because I'm sworn in some classes by accident. There's like, again, speaking, come back to the, like, YouTube or whatever, like, the importance of owning your assets. So now using them, and you know, it's one hand washes the other both wash the face, as we say in New York, is…  

They’re I'm giving them content, and they're giving me traffic. But it's with this kind of also, you're with the understanding, too, that at any point they can pull the plug. 

Omar

They can cut you off?

Kia Orion

Exactly. So never, you know. And so your other guests, as a fan of the show have mentioned the importance of diversifying your income and really owning the customer experience of your customers. Because if you rely on… 

Omar  

That is a massive key. Then there's this book called The Millionaire Fastlane. Have you ever heard of it?

Kia Orion  

I've heard of it. I haven't read it, though.

Omar  

So in that book, I actually forget who the author... I forget the author's name. But what he says is, if you start relying on any other platform, even YouTube, for example, or Google, anything to give you business, there's one thing that can happen: an algorithm change. They decide to shadow ban you because you're not making the money anymore. That's it. Your entire business model goes uphill. 

Kia Orion

A thousand or… 

Omar

Or downhill. That's it, you're screwed, you know? 

Kia Orion  

Mo, quick aside. I have a friend who works at TripAdvisor. And she was telling me that their entire, that entire company is built off of Google, just the SEO of Google sending people to TripAdvisor. 

And because Google has now recently brought out their own, like Google Flights and stuff, they're bumping them down. And it's like, it's crazy to think that's like, how many billions of dollars or a million dollars in a company and it's all on SEO… 

Omar

They’re just taking them that way… 

Kia Orion

A thousand! Because then you’re a competitor and Google says: Oh, actually, we're gonna rank our own product over yours now. That's like that. It's like, dude, it's crazy.

Omar  

Google’s a monopoly man. That's what it is. Whoever they want to push up, they'll push up. If they don’t help them, if they don’t help them, they're screwed. The moment that Google decides: Hey, I want to make my own course platform. Skillshare, Udemy go down.

Kia Orion

A thousand. 

Omar

The moment that Google says: Hey, I want to make my own beats. That's it. Like all the beat-making...are screwed.

Kia Orion  

I'm hoping, I'm hoping that's a ways down the line. Now hopefully they have the course platforms before they get into beats. But dude you’re right. If you're listening, you're thinking of, you're thinking of doing your own business, whatever like Mo's 1,000%, right? Make sure you do not rely on just one source because it's scary. So I'm gonna walking that, that tightrope right now. So figure it out.

Omar  

Have you managed to move any of your audience? So your friend also said this. And I don't know much about Skillshare. So I'm curious, learn myself. But have you managed to move any of your audience from Skillshare to other platforms?

Kia Orion  

So that's the thing is I rather than moving on to other platforms, I just moved them in via email.

Omar

That’s good. That’s good.

Kia Orion

I moved on to a one on one. Yeah. So that's, that's exactly where that's where I push them. It’s just into my funnel. I have this really dope producer training that I made. And that's, that was the key. Because once I got that second strike, I said, “Oh.” 

This, and then also, at any point, they can just bump your course. Or, you know, again, you’re at their… It's that...that...that dance. And so that's when I said, I really need to start owning this customer experience, building that relationship, one on one, ASAP. 

And so that's what I've been able to do into the Beat Bootcamp, which is, that's my own personal thing. That's hosted. That's high ticket. It's huge. That's pretty much, man that's like, we really give you all the attention. And it's it's high ticket for a reason. 

It's on Teachable, etc. But like, that is the one that I want to morph into eventually, because it's great having the Skillshare traffic. But like you said… Every morning I wake up, I'm like: Did they ban me today? Oh. No, not yet. Okay, it's just a matter of time.

Omar  

That's right, man, how big have you built your email list?

Kia Orion  

So, listen, we're growing slow and steady. We’re almost at a thousand. 

Omar  

That's really good for Skillshare, it's coming straight from Skillshare. I thought it was much less.

Kia Orion  

Well, here's the thing. It was a lot, I had a lot more, but I'm starting to realize that... the how many times you head too but, quality over quantity.

Omar

Yeah.

Kai Orion

So I just I just chopped that sucker hard. If it's like, you haven't been active in the minute I chat, like, I just make sure that the people are on it. Because my delivery rates are also really affected. 

Like, if you're on this list, I really want you to be here, because you really fuck with me. It's like, I'm gonna send you really cool stuff every week. I'll have some cool products for you once in a blue. But if you're here, you want to be here. I don't want to have this crazy list that like,the people are like, “Who?” you know, so what...

Omar  

Hey, you know what I think you'd be really good at?  And this is just my two cents here. So you can interpret it any way you want.

Kai Orion

Please. Yes?

Omar

You have the voice for a podcast, in my opinion. And a fantastic way to nurture your email list is to get that investment with them through a podcast. Just like you reach out to me, you'll have people in your email reaching out to you. 

So if you have that podcast that you create, and you just push out a weekly episode that's kind of edited and put together and you're.... you're already “sound engineer” in my eyes. You can push out that episode on a weekly basis to your email list, your email will listen to that. And you'll get the retention rates going up and conversion rates going up that way too. 

Kia Orion

So Mo, listen, you’re, you’re, you’re 10 steps ahead of me. I, so I'd had… First of all, I appreciate the compliment. I always thought I had a face for radio. So it's nice to know that I have a voice for it too!

And so I actually... I had, I had one on this. On music production. But again, I think maybe it's because you're handsome. Maybe it's because you got the swag. And nobody ever reached out. I was trying. It was a Q&A show. Maybe that's where I was messing up. Was… I would always, I would say, “Hey guys, ask me questions.” Like, I want to answer these questions.

I ran it for maybe two years. But a lot of the questions I would source from Reddit, other forums people ask once in a blue. And yes, I had some listeners, but it was never the... I never got that engagement that I've always… To be honest - well, that's part I appreciate you dropping some gems on me even there. Something I've never been able to have. 

Omar

The long game.

Kai Orion

Yeah, I've never been able to get the engagement there. So maybe I, maybe I gave up on it too early, I - about two years. But maybe that's been it's like, who knows maybe that third year was the one it took off? 

Omar

Shorten it? Yeah, you never know. It's a long game, right? And I think you should use it strategically rather than care about the number of downloads that you're getting. 

Kai Orion

Word.

Omar

And the way you just there's so many different ways that you can use it strategically. I guess to give my audience a value here as well. I mean, you can bring on people from your email list onto the podcast episode and build a relationship with them.

That way you can push it out to each of your, to your email list on a weekly episode and see what kind of listenership that you're getting that way to see who's converting and have a specific link that you're using in your email that you know that the traffic came from your email list, you're able to track that and you think: “Oh, okay, so it's this many people that are opening up my podcast versus this many people on my email list.” 

So the rough numbers if I keep scaling my email list, I should expect this many downloads. Then you have some sort of offer carved out on your podcast episodes so that you can convert people to either go buy your course or get more email subscribers or whatever you want. I mean, there's so many strategic ways that you can use the podcast besides just focusing on getting traction via pure downloads. 

Kia Orion

Hmm…

Omar

You know, if you put focus on that you... you're never going to succeed because that's where people start getting the whole: “Oh, I just want this many downloads so I can get sponsorships.” Like, don't focus on that.

Kia Orion  

Yeah, Mo, actually, if you don't mind showing how the sausage is made a little bit... How has this, how's this medium? Because I've seen... To you, you started picking up heat fast and then you were able to Pat on the show. 

If you don't mind kind of talking to me about that: How you've been able to leverage it to get guests like that? Like show... if you don't mind showing a little behind the scenes a little?

Omar  

Here's a little secret. Everyone wants to be on a podcast. Everyone and their mothers want to be on a podcast. It's your house and people want to come to your house. Getting a Pat, guests like Pat wasn't hard. All it - getting... getting a guest like Dan Lok -

Kai Orion

Really?

Omar

Wasn’t hard. Getting a - yeah, it wasn’t. And if you're listening to this, Pat Flynn or Dan Lok, it wasn't hard. Like, all it takes is a little bit of elbow grease and some creative networking. That's all it takes. It's like, there's, there's six degrees of freedom between everybody, right? 

So let's say I met you, and you introduced me to a friend that has a decent following. Maybe like 30k followers on Instagram, and I met him and then I realized that he knows somebody with 100k followers on Instagram. So I'm like, okay, I, I do a small little testimonial off my phone. From that guy: “Hey, this is blah, blah, blah. Make sure you listen in The Nomadic Executive.” 

Then I reached out to the 100k guy. Oh, here we go. Your friend. I just interviewed him. You want to come on my show? Get on? Bring him on my show. He knows Pat Flynn. Okay, cool. Little interview. Oh, hey, Pat Flynn reads - how can I reach Pat Flynn? It's just where whatever platforms he's on. So like that when I reached out to Pat Flynn, he was on YouTube. 

He had a smaller subscriber count at that point. I said, “Hey, let me have you on my show.” And he said: “Cool. Yeah, just shoot me an email.” So it's, they're all human beings. At the end of the day, you just need to do some creative networking. And they'll come on to your show for free. Because at the end of the day, you're giving them exposure and a platform to speak to their voice and their story.

Kia Orion  

Wow, that's why you're successful, and you're willing to shoot shots.

Omar  

And that's all it is. That's all it is. You're the same way you know that too. Because all it takes is persistence and grit. And you got this like. A little bit of creativity, man. And you can do anything you want in life. Anything. 

Kia Orion  

Dude, I just want to double click on that because that is the truth, man. The older I get, the more experience I have of failing things and then getting success and things. It's seriously - it's less about like, just like, being smarter. 

It's like persistence and grit will seriously get you like 95% of the way. And then that other small 5% of creativity, just maybe not - knowing how to do the angle. Like it's seriously, it’s a game changer. So if you're gonna seriously like, listen to more, listen to Mo more because this man got gems for you, for real. That's the - that is the truth. 

Omar  

If you need any help with the podcast, I'm going to talk to you about that after, offline. But let's move on to the next topic.

Kia Orion

Sure, yeah, let’s do it.

Omar

So you got Skillshare, you've got your email list being built up. You even got a product that you're pushing out to your email list, right? 

Kia Orion

Right.

Omar

What kind of revenue - and we love talking revenue on the show. What kind of revenue are you bringing in right now, currently?

Kia Orion  

Of course. So, with the course it wasn't something that I was doing pretty much evergreen. It's a boot camp. So it was, there just kind of a launch. And it was something that kind of geared up with... shout out to my friend, it's a, her agency is kicking the ass, Akita. 

And so she helped me build the funnel out. And so we launched business build up…  launch. And so we made around like 10 G's on the launch of that course, which was cool. And so that kind of just, that's like my rainy day fund. 

Because I didn't want to, I didn't want to rely on that and have to do these launches periodically. As like, as four weeks. And I wanted to like really dive into it. So from Skillshare... And like, I also do Udemy as well, that's kind of the same thing anytime.

Omar  

That’s what I was thinking in my head.

Kia Orion  

So any of those free course platforms, I’ll say: Listen, I'll do one and kind of put it on all those. And so like, pretty passively around like two G's, which is…

Omar 

A month? 

Kia Orion

A month. Which is pretty cool. Don't have to, like, invest in it too hard. And then because  of the diversifying thing, that's where... I'm really, want to, I kind of got that fire. Once you have that kind of ball rolling, you can just kind of like tend it and leave it. And now that was rolling, I'm like really trying to dial into a few other ones. So that's where like, the leasing of the beats... I've really tried to like hone into more.

Omar

Elaborate on that. What's the leasing of a beat?

Kia Orion

Okay, so pretty much as any video creator is, everybody wants to be creative these days. They need music. And so rather than using something like Epidemic Sound, or something like that. Of like, if creators want something that's more unique, or more different or specialized, more than just something that they get on kind of this, like tinkly piano sound, that's when I kind of have like this... My own angle. 

And so I'll pitch people to Hey, you want to use these tunes for free or if you need anything made I'm happy to make you some your own custom music for etc. But it'll be it'll be less like Fiverr like trying to hustle out for like 10 bucks? And more something like dope for people who have like, commercials, like... that have partners like Samsung and get something placed in a commercial like that. Like more of...

Omar  

High tech, higher end.

Kia Orion  

Exactly. High tech, higher end. Less. Less volume. So those are kind of the angles. And then also I've been working with a buddy. I'm not gonna say his name, but I'm not sure it's gonna come to fruition yet. But hopefully, he - we're gonna figure out a way to build out like, our own kind of like, music… little streaming platform so that way it's... It’'ll be on Spotify, obviously. But it’ll be… 

Omar  

Hold on, I use that company, in this, in a way, you know? 

Kia Orion  

No, no, no, no, no, I wish. I was like, the way I pitched it... like, now it sounds way more fancy and it's pretty much - we're working together. I make the music, he puts it together in like, playlists. And he-  we drive creators there to like, for the angles.  

Like, through Twitch streamers and stuff. People who stream a lot of music. If you can - who like stream 24 hours but need music on their channel? Rather than them like buying a subscription we just have like playlists and stuff for them.

Omar  

And then you'll pitch the streamers: Hey, this is a playlist that you can use for such and such amount of money?

Kia Orion  

No, no. Simply for free. You can use it for free.

Omar

Okay.

Kia Orion

Because if we get the right influencers, right Twitch streamers, the number…

Omar

You go viral.

Kia Orion

You can rack up serious revenue numbers just from, from plays. So, like I think a million Spotify plays a month is like three grand or something like that. Which is pennies, which is crazy. But like, yeah, so some things like that, just kind of figuring things out. 

And then also, for my own biz I sell... I'm really into audio engineering, too. So I like, sell templates. I was like: Hey, Mo you want to sound like Tory Lanez? Like, don't want to do all the work? I got you like here's a vocal template. You can buy and slap that on and you sound like Tory Lanez maybe, not quite but close enough.

Omar  

Please tell me you're on Tik Tok too?

Kia Orion  

Dude! Mo, I need your help bro. So I tried Tik Tok. I failed so hard. I got like 40 views on like, 200 videos. 

Omar  

Man! 

Kia Orion  

200 videos! I need your help, because seriously… So, Mo - complete honesty. And your audience too. I'm in a place in my life where seriously, I feel a little bit lost. I have, I'm sitting on a little bit of coin. I've got the passive income. It's cool. I've got these other things. 

But I really want to... I'm still itching to really pursue my own art more. As like, as an artist. And so, I know there are these angles of Tik Tok,  of Clubhouse. All these angles, and I don't exactly know where to go. 

I finally have the creative space, the mental space. I'm living in Mexico, so things aren’t super expensive. And I feel a little bit lost. In terms like direction. Like I know a huge GaryVee fan. I know he's been preaching Tik Tok. I tried it. I couldn't seem to figure it out. Maybe try it again. Where - you know, putting your marketing hat on as an artist… 

Omar  

It's funny, like I've never put me never put me in this guru space, right? Like, I'm never gonna be that guru. And it all applies differently. All I can give you is some outsider perspective. 

Kia Orion  

Of course. But Mo, in itself, that, that is the sauce. I don’t, I, you know - a guru...

Omar  

That’s what it is. You just need a guru...

Kia Orion

I don’t want a guru. Exactly, Mo.  

Omar

To me, it's so blatantly obvious what you should do, right? It's Tik Tok. All these other platforms don't matter for you as an artist right now. All... the only platform in my eyes that matters for you is Tik Tok. And then you can take that 9:16 vertical video and since you have a YouTube channel, you make a YouTube short channel, a second YouTube short channel and just repost those Tik Toks on there. 

Kia Orion

Oh...

Omar

Literally use the same piece of content posted up on YouTube Shorts and also post it up on Instagram Reels. Same piece of content three times. But double down on Tik Tok because I have seen and constantly see this. 

Artists that make one video that goes viral like, for... And I talked about this example maybe a few, like 10 episodes ago, but there's this guy named badlymusic on Tik Tok. And it's funny I've kept up with him for a while now. He hasn't gone viral since. But he's not, he's not done trying. 

I just remember like I used to show up to this guy's live streams in the middle of the night. Like I'll be working on something and I randomly get on Tik Tok, as we do, just really fucking scrolling… 

Kia Orion

Yeah.

Omar

Down, mindlessly. 

Kia Orion

Yeah.

Omar

Trying to get a little break from my work. And I'll see like the live stream buttons on top and I'll see badlymusic. And I know this guy has hustle. And I always respect people with hustle. That's, that's -  I'm always about the underdog, right? 

So like I go on his live stream, I think it was the first time and I start talking to him on there. He had maybe about 10 or 15 people on his livestreams at most. The guy’s always sitting throughout the night just making music. And I love this guy, you know? Like I spoke to him a couple times on there and he’s just a great guy. 

Lo and behold, about three weeks after I start going on his live streams, maybe every two or three days. The guy blows up on Tik Tok. He gets one video with about 6 million views.

Kia Orion

What was the video?

Omar

It was just - so it was this trend that was going around on Tik Tok. And you just got to - it's really massive for artists that you got to follow along with trends. He just followed this one format that a lot of artists were doing and it starts off with something like a hook statement. Like, “I messed up.” And then it goes, let me let me let me reverse and then it goes reverse reverse. And a lot of artists have done this format. 

But he used it and he did it well. Reverse, reverse, reverse. He tells us a little story. And then at the end he says and now I'm sitting here every single night making music. And what I'm going to do... and if you guys could just help me out, push up my streams on Spotify? And you can hit the live stream and we can, we can check out the live stream numbers on Spotify. I'll send you the video later to show you exactly the format. 

Kia Orion

Yeah.

Omar

We can check out the live stream numbers go up overnight from six, that’s 6 million views. He went from like, I think 300 Spotify streams to over a million Spotify streams in a matter of like, 12 hours.

Kia Omar

No…

Omar

And now he's two point - 2.4 million streams or something for one of his songs, and that was from one viral video. One!

Kia Orion  

That’s insane.

Omar  

To give you more context. I'm not an artist. I was on Tik Tok. And within three months, I got 30k followers with a one view -  a million views for, for doing bullsh*t. Nothing.

Kia Orion  

Really?

Omar

So, you are… are doing -

Kia Orion  

How do you - sorry to interrupt. I just want to say, how do you do it without, without… With still feeling genuine to yourself? Because I don’t want to like, do these stupid little dances and sh*t.

Omar

Don’t.

Kia Orion

You know what I mean? ‘Cuz that’s like… how’d, how’d you sling it?

Omar  

You just need your marketing hat on.  

Kia Orion

That's it. 

Omar

You just need to know what appeals to people. You can do everything in your own angle. You're a musician. So check out what other musicians are doing. That's all you should... That's all you should be checking out. Don't do these stupid little dances. There's plenty of artists out there that blow up... Blow up for not doing these dances, okay? 

Kia Orion

Okay.

Omar

TikTok isn't a dancing platform at its core. It’s, it just appeals to dances for the kids. And mostly girls, not even that many guys. So really, just check out what other artists are doing. Use your standard marketing hat rules where I should grab the attention of the audience within the first five seconds, I should come up with some sort of creative that keeps people engaged for the next 15 to 30 seconds, which isn't hard to do in your creative…. 

Speaking to you, you’re a creative entrepreneur. I mean, you're creating all these different new business ideas out of thin air. Angles that I've never even heard of before. If you can do that, you can do this easily. 

Kia Orion  

Mo, it’s so funny, ‘cuz you’re so right. And when I but when I think about business, when I think about like, again, kind of, offer of like if I have something of value to give. And maybe this is just a mental gymnastics I need to do. If I have something of value that I can give, then I know that I'm able to make money from it. 

So I feel when it comes to the business side of like, vocal templates, beats, etc. Like, all of it. I just know, I feel like the steps are almost like - ahh! - like from years of failing all that, right? 

Omar

Yes. 

Kia Orion

And then when I switch and I'm like, okay, I want to be an artist. It's like, I got nothing. It's really fascinating. It's like a switch in like, okay, now I'm pitching. Or, like, I want like, my own music to blow up. And I feel like I'm back at square one, again. You know, like, where do I go?

Omar

You do, that’s what it is. 

Kia Orion  

It’s crazy. 

Omar

And you are good at that. Yeah.

Kia Orion

It really is. It’s like, it’s fascinating. I have helped friends with business, I'm excited about my own. Like, and then it's strange, I make the slight switch. And for some reason, I haven't been able to translate what I've been able to really nail in and get to work with the online biz. 

When in terms of helping people, teaching beats, or selling beats or whatever, etc, etc. When it comes just like, Hey, want to like, listen to my music? Whatever, that - there's some mental... But I'm not sure, what… It’s something there. I haven't been able to figure out yet.

Omar  

There are always... so, depending on the fields, right? Sometimes there's some like, cross skills that work in some fields also work in some other fields. Sometimes starting from a... from orange to apples, and they're completely different, right? 

Kia Orion

Yeah. 

Omar

I mean, teaching long form content courses, where people are coming to you to sign up for your courses. It's a lot different than trying to do 30-second short form videos.

Kia Orio

Right.

Omar

Or something like attention and growth. And a song that holds someone's attention the entire time. They're different. So, but the underlying pinnacle of marketing, and the business aspect will always be to stay same no matter what part of business you go to, right? It's about attention at the end of the day. Whether it's a long form content, or the short form content, you're holding attention and how can you hold it best? 

And yes, you made a great example. And I... I pondered this all the time, you got to be a jester before you can be a king, right? And then and that is over and over again. You might be a king in one aspect of your life. But the moment that you’ve learned something else, you gotta be a jester again. And you gotta start from the top to the bottom again. And sometimes it hurts. It hurts. 

Kia Orion

Mo, who are you telling?

Omar

Yeah, I'm, I'm so good at this one thing. Why am I - Why am I getting treated like a f*cking joke and this other thing, you know?

Kia Orion  

Why can't I figure this out? Dude, a 1,000%! Mo, but you're so right. And first of all, if you... you need that you have, you got some dope phrases, man. You first got to be a jester before you can be a king. That’s, that’s gangster. That's also gold. 

Omar

Right. 

Kia Orion

I think, I think part of it is... Now, two is, I've been wanting… So I haven't been wanting. I've been doing this song a week. So pretty much, because I make so much music. I was like I need to start releasing this on some Russ. I'm obsessed with Russ. Not sure if you know about him. He's like, totally DIY.

Omar

Great, great guy. Love his songs. I love his music, dude.

Kia Orion  

Me too. And his whole ethos of like, do it yourself. That's just kind of my whole thing. It’s like teaching people how to build their own kind of DIY artist thing. And then... and it’s like you said: King to Jester, where I'm like, I've got this bar so figured out. 

And then I feel like I'm like: Okay, well, why can't I figure this part out? You know what I mean? Where it's like, I've got some weeks I've got cool content. But like, how do you get people to listen to it? It’s strange the value prop of like, here I have some cool music for you. It’s like you said: I have to find some other angle of being exciting, right?

Omar  

Throwing some stuff up the wall, man. Like you said, you failed everything so far to get where you are. It's the same problem. 

Kia Orion

Yeah.

Omar

That's all it is. 

Kia Orion

Yeah.

Omar

You got to throw stuff at the wall until you stick and… And really what speeds up that process that I've learned throughout the years is just finding somebody else that's already done it to point you in the right direction.

Kia Orion

Yeah. 

Omar

That's it. That's the… You can watch all the YouTube videos in the world and that'll help you grow too. But just at a slower pace  than actually finding somebody that's already done it and learning from them.

Kia Orion  

So in this regard in that example was like, you mean like you found like Pat Flynn or Gary Vee or something that you're like, oh, let me rock this now or?

Omar  

It doesn't even have to be to that degree. It - all it has to be is someone that's one step ahead of you. That’s all it has to be.You can learn from somebody who has 20K followers on TikTok, if you don't have 20K followers on TikTok, yeah?

Kai Orion

Right.

Omar

It's just one step up, one step up, one step up. I could sit there and learn from Pat Flynn all day. But if I'm, if I'm not anywhere near Pat Flynn's level, and all of a sudden, he's talking about advanced techniques, like, I'm not going to get value from that. Because I’m not even close to that, you know?

Kia Orion

Mo, a thousand. And honestly, that’s, that’s honestly what I tell a lot of people when it comes to my own courses and teaching them. It's like, you don't have to be the Imposter Syndrome thing. It's like, I'm not just Blaze, you know? I mean, I'm not Drake. 

But like, I - you don't have to be. Like, because I still… you have so much value that you can give and teach people without being like, the super pinnacle level? It's fun...it's just funny how much you know. And sometimes it's just that kick in the ass. Like, like you said, an outside perspective can really just like help change.

Omar

Yeah.

Kia Orion

Because we’re just, you know, we're all in our heads. We get caught in this loop of like, I know that in terms of when it comes to my teaching, I'm like: Okay, I know, I'm not the best, I'm still pretty damn good and can teach a thing or two. 

Omar

Yeah.

Kia Orion

But then compared to on the learning side, again, when it come back to that piece than being very humbled again; where it's okay, none of this is working, being like: “Okay, now what?”

I’ll be like: “Kia, of course, it's like, look at somebody who's doing what you want to do. And then just like, iterate, you know? Rip.” 

Omar

That's it, that’s it.

Kia Orion

Rip a new jam on it.

Omar  

Yep. And so then Pat Flynn once said too that I - I got this from him.  You just got to know something a little more than somebody else is able to teach it... teach it to just a little bit more than that. You just gotta be a little bit more than them to be able to teach.

Kia

Yes, yes.

Omar

So, imposter syndrome is... is pointless.

Kia Orion  

A thousand. And Mo, something I wanted to ask you too, was when you're teaching in this kind of this element as well, do you find - I find this for me - I'm curious if you do. I find, I almost start to learn the material better? I get like a better grasp on it once I step into that teacher role, because I just feel more...

Omar  

I've never done courses like you. Like, that's just never a route that's ever appealed to me. And that I don't think I’ll ever do courses. Unless... I mean, but I hear it's really, really scalable from some of the people that I work with. So we'll see down the road, maybe some point. But at least from teaching just general life stuff to like friends or even learning from them...

Kai Orion

Yeah, in this podcast, I mean… 

Omar

You just learn more. Yeah, I mean, if you think about it, I've interviewed maybe about 70 people now and I know so much more than I did when I first started. So yes, you learn more that way you know? I'm humbled, incredibly humbled to be in a position right now to where you're asking me questions. Because I'm on the - I'm on this side of the mic as a podcast host. I’m the one  who’s asking people questions, you know?

So I'm incredibly full of gratitude and incredibly humbled right now to be even able to be in this position right now, you know? And it really that's what it is. Like you're teaching other people how to make beats, you're probably learning so much more along the process, you know? And yeah, maybe you knew a little bit more before them, but now you know a lot more.

Kia Orion  

Exac - exactly too! And, and that… that's exactly right. Part of it too is you don't and you may have felt this way too… you don't realize until you start to put out there you've probably gotten interested people are following your podcast until you put sh*t out there, whether it's a course or this podcast. Until people, customers, clients, whatever are able to poke holes in it. Like you don't even -  I was like: “Oh, I don't even know that that was a problem.” Until people like: “Kia, what about… how do you mix that?” 

And I was like: “Oh, of course!” Like, I took that for granted. I - that was an automatic move. I didn't even realize. Or even if you have this podcast, you'll say, “Hey Mo, what about this or that?” It’s a great idea. I didn't even realize that was something that you wanted. That like, you're kind of, you don't know that is getting like I was trying out launching fast before about that, making that rookie mistake.

Omar  

Don't let it. Don't downplay the, the mentorship.  

Kia Orion

Yes.

Omar

Your mentorship is key when it comes to being better. I still... like going from that jester to King as fast as you possibly can because it starts over and over and over again. Over and over?  Mentorship is a key to getting from jester to King as fast as possible. In any aspect, anything right? 

You can grind your… like I remember the first skill I ever learned. It took me about five years to get really, really, really good at. And then when I got into business... I don't want to talk about the first scope but when I got into business...

Kia Orion  

I was gonna say, you left that sh*t unintentionally. Have you talked about it? Do they know?

Omar  

No, they don’t. brush up on it. And I don’t wanna, I don’t wanna brush up on it. Maybe I'll tell you later but I don't wanna brush up on it right now.

Kia Orion  

I'm sorry, audience I tried. I tried. You gotta DM the man to get it. 

Omar  

But the second skill that I got really good at was business, right? And that was a - and I want to say really good at even yet. I'm not King status by any means. King status, you're making billions.

Kia Orion  

Yes. And they're always learning. People are always learning.

Omar  

Always, always learning life's a journey, right? So, but, to get good at this skill I had many mentors already. Even currently, like for example, that episode that you heard with Ryan. Him and I have a mutual friend who was also a mentor of mine. 

So like there's,  it's a journey, man. And that's what it is. You're constantly, constantly learning. But to anybody that you know more than about a specific subject, you're going to seem like a king to them. Whereas, like a jester to a billionaire, it was within the desert.

Kia Orion  

And a thousand. I think that’s  the beautiful part about the journey, the more that I learned, the more I'm able to work towards people like you, people who have some real tangible success. It's really kind of calming. And makes you realize that nobody has it figured out. Like this perception is. But you realize that it's really the people who then start to feel like they have it all figured out, that start to slip.

Omar

Yep.

Kia Orion

It's the people that are able to stay humble, like, exactly. And Gary talks about this too, of like, always being hungry. Of feeling like, you know, clouds and dirt to steal a Gary-ism. Of him being like, yes, he's killing it, but also be like, not knowing sh*t. 

And I'm just getting started. We're like, I think it's that like, that's the real game changer. If you can have that kind of student mentality throughout it. Where yes, you can accumulate the knowledge… just doing well. But to always understand that it's forever changing, I think it’s the exciting part.

Omar  

Think about the flipside here before you move off that point. 

Kai Orion

Yeah.

Omar

If you start to associate yourself with being somebody that's really, really good at something, and the moment that you run into a situation where you're not sh*t, that situation, your ego gets hit hard, right?

Kai Orion

Right.

Omar

That can break you. That can shatter you. And sometimes if you get to that point, because your ego will get inflated with wins. It just happens as a natural human circumstance. But it takes those, those hits to your ego to really humble you back down and realize you're not really sh*t over and over again, you know, it's a natural thing. 

I see this progression all the time. You, you, you're just starting off, so you're humble as hell. Then you start getting wins, you start getting wins, you start getting wins, you start getting wins. Boom, you know, you think you know everything. Your ego gets hit, because someone who knows much more than you, you go down back to being humble. 

Then you go up, up, up, up, up, and this time you don't associate your identity with being the best at something you just associated with your identity being I'm a cool dude who knows a lot about this thing I can help other people. 

Kia Orion  

Right, Mo. A thousand. I think part of it is - and then I gotta go, so I'll leave you with this one. Is that, that kind of identity like you said much of your Tom Bilyeu fan. I'm a huge Tom Bilyeu fan. But he talks about this often of, really the key of being… of taking chances? And once you start to get that - it gets too much you just kind of stop taking them because then it becomes risky. 

If you're too afraid of being the jester again, you’d just become more paralyzed. And the only - the real key is just to continue to sprint in a direction even if it's the wrong direction. He talks about this all the time. I love it. It's the wrong direction. Making mistakes is the most information rich data stream that you can have. And so...

Omar  

Before I let you go here…

Kia Orion

Yeah?

Omar

I would like to cover your artist's story. 

Kia Orion

Okay!

Omar

So tell me where people can find you, and what direction do you want to take your art, artists, right?

Kia Orion  

Of course so first of all Mo, I appreciate that. Appreciate the plug too, y'all. if you want to peep the tunes it's at Kia Orion. Kia like the car: K I A.  Orion like the constellation: O R I O N. Get at me, slide into the DM. It's a weirda** name. I got hippie parents. So you can slide in the DM on my -  all socials, that same thing. 

Long story short, the dream would be to be like A$AP Rocky, and have it be... have, have like the music be so dope that people really dig it. But also have a piece where it's like education at the same time. So I'm like, such a fanboy of like, I know I'd give like, my left nut, to like psych here like A$AP Rocky's like, creative processes. And like, know what that is inside scoop is and so I would love to be able to give that to people. 

But people got to give a fuck about the music first. And so it's like really to have enough attention that like, I can make the music and it's dope. And I love making music. I always will and the people like it. But then also have the flip side to actually be like super poppin’ and also drop gems exactly like you're doing. Like people who say listen, like Russ does. 

And say listen, it's not about - I'm not special, like just dropped. Like these elements that took me so long to learn that I really feel like there's - I’ll  always love that my dad was my middle school teacher. I'll always be an educator. But also want that - I'd love to have my own artist … And I want to start some Dr. Dre type sh*t.

Omar  

It’s an incredibly unique angle, I like it. Yeah.

Kia Orion  

So you know out here on the nomad, nomad journey, I’m trying to be a rockstar, Mo, you know? Something like, something like.

Omar  

There we go, that’s what we’re talking about. One final question here then you can leave man. 

Kia Orion  

Of course!

Omar

And this is a question that I ask everybody who comes on my podcast.

Kia Orion

I, I know. 

Omar

I’m sure you’re aware. Great. So if you had a billboard in space, okay? And on that billboard, it rises with the sun, it sets with the sun. And you could write anything on there and all 7 billion, 8 billion people, however many people on planet Earth could see it every single day for the rest of their life. What would you write on there?

Kia Orion  

So obviously, I've heard your podcast so I knew it was coming. So I was like, “What’d I put?” I’d put… This is my mantra for the year.

Omar

Right.

Kia Orion

Is, “You're you're good enough.” It's like something that I believe in wholeheartedly because we -  I think and maybe this is because I’m creative and I’m coming from a creative place. There's so much of that imposter syndrome of why - we talked about earlier. Why am I not the best?  Who am I to teach something of, of this kind of…. 

Steven Pressfield calls it in The War of Art Resistance. He calls it the shadow career of like, you're kind of close to what you want to do, but you never quite go for it. 

Omar

Right.

Kia Orion

Like music. I think I'm a musician. And so to me, art is so subjective that like, some people think Drake is great. Some people think he's trash. The art actually itself, I don't want to say, doesn't matter. But it's almost like that. As Gary says, you don't get to choose if it matters. The real key is like, all the other stuff. The elbow grease, the ideas you're going to put into it. And so at this point, like yes, get your craft, hone your craft, be good. But like, you're probably the, like, you're good enough. Like, you're good enough to make it happen, what you want to make happen. The real key is, are you going to go for it?

Omar  

Exactly. You put in the work.

Kia Orion  

Are you going to put in the work to go for it? And so that was - even with my whole health diagnosis sh*t of being like… Kia, like, you can hone the craft all day, but if nobody gives a fuck, nobody's gonna listen to it. Like you'd be the best music in the world. Like, how much, how many amazing musicians have never heard of? And then there's like, Li’l Pump who like, again…. Art is objective. But that's not my sh*t. But like, you know, it's like, you’re good enough. Go for it.

Omar  

That's it. There's always a market out there for where you can put out.

Kia Orion  

A thousand, a 1000%! There will always be a market. Stop tweaking the f*cking knobs and switches. Nobody even gives a fuck, like, go for it.

Omar  

That's good. I like that. Good place to leave it at. Thank you so much for coming on today, Kia.

Kia Orion  

Well, honestly, sorry that this is so short. I’d love to do a part two. So when I get a cracking podcast, we'll swap whatever I could do for you, brother. I appreciate you even having me here.  

Omar  

I appreciate it. So thanks so much, man.

Kia Orion  

Hey, thank you, the audience too. Thanks for listening. Keep listening to me. He's the man!

Omar

What a great episode with Kia. Be sure to go show his music some love. Link is in the show notes. 

The biggest takeaway from this episode really comes down to one thing: don’t be afraid to chase after your dream. This isn’t the 1800s. I mean, we live in a day and age where literally you like can be leveraged to make money. Just gotta think outside the box a little.