How to Leave Your 9 to 5 and Get Started Traveling the World With David McNeill | TNE065

Would you rather commit to living and working in one country for some time or work remote? Both opportunities offer freedom and growth that would do wonders for your personal and professional growth. However, despite its appeal, many still back away from taking the chance because the process of leaving or entering a country can get really complicated.

In this week’s episode, I connected with Expat Empire founder David McNeill to talk about what it’s like to live and work abroad permanently. Through his company, David uses his love and knowledge of traveling to help others explore and find their place in the world. He also shares valuable insights about the nomadic lifestyle and how it’s changing the way we live and work abroad.

[0:35]What Is Expat Empire?

[2:01]David’s Travel Backstory

[4:56]Why David Didn’t Stay In His Dream City

[11:40]The Flexibilities of Remote Work

[25:00]The Influence of People’s Need For Stability And Spontaneity On Their Decisions

[40:38]David’s Advice For Aspiring Travelers And Nomads

David McNeill's Links:
 
Instagram: @expatdavid
Facebook: @expatempiredavid
Website: www.expatempire.com

Omar's (Host) Social Media:

Instagram - @nomadables

TikTok - @nomadables

Facebook Group - NOMADABLES - Accountability & Growth Community for Remote Workers- Perfect to meet fellow online entrepreneurs, remote workers, and digital nomads.

YouTube - Omar Mo

LinkedIn - Omar Mo Nomads Cast

Twitter - @nomadables

Pintrest - @nomadables

Clubhouse - @pods

WEBSITE: https://www.nomadables.com/

Support the show (http://www.nomadables.com)

Transcript

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TNE 65 - How To Leave Your 9 To 5 And Get Started Traveling The World With David McNeill

Omar  

What's up, Nomad fam? I know there's quite a few of you listening to my voice right now that have been itching at the chance to work and go travel the world. Hell it may even be the one of the biggest reasons why you tune in each week. I know I've spoken to some of you personally, whether it was through email or Zoom and the common theme has always been, what should I do if I want to work and travel the world? 

Well today's guest is an expert at helping people start their next adventure. We're joined by David McNeill, founder of Expat Empire. David's been living permanently abroad since 2014. And today, we dive deep into some of his stories as well as how a person should prepare if getting ready to take a journey of their own.

Here we go. Alright, David McNeill. Welcome to the Nomadic Executive from Expat Empire, man. Happy to have you on.

David McNeill  

Yeah. Thanks so much for having me Omar, it's a pleasure to be here.

Omar  

Yeah, happy to connect finally. So for my audience that don't know what you do or who you are, and where I think, really a lot of travel businesses during the pandemic haven't seen the shine that they should have gotten. Why don't you give a small rundown to my audience here? Especially the ones that are aspiring travelers, and I've spoken to many of whom are. So please go ahead.

David McNeill  

Sure. Yeah. So to talk about Expat Empire, specifically, this project started about three years ago, two and a half, three years ago, started with a book about my time living in Japan. I've lived personally in Tokyo, and Berlin, and now I'm in Porto, Portugal. So that's where it started. 

And then adding in the Expat Empire podcast, adding in the blog posts and meetup events here in Porto. It's really about inspiring people to move abroad, and then showing them how they can do it. So it's all of that content, but also, then the personalized consulting services to help walk people through wherever they are today to where they want to be. 

So there are coaching aspects, but a lot of it is really about services. So helping people figure out visas that could work for them. Helping people think through all the steps they have to take from where they are right now to actually getting abroad being settled in a new destination, maybe comparing countries or comparing cities to figure out where the perfect spot for them is.

 So we really try to have a very personalized aspect to our services and what we offer and writing, you know, specific proposals and putting together new services based on what people need. But we see a lot of commonalities across all of that. And so it's being able to deliver that to people in a way that we can kind of partner with our clients to be like their key contact throughout the very intense and challenging process, a stressful process of moving abroad. So yeah, it's been an opportunity for me to take my experience living in all these different countries and be able to put that to use to help other people do the same.

Omar  

What inspired you to actually go out in the first place? You said you lived in three countries now? Like, what was the inspiration behind that? And how old were you when it first happened?

David McNeill  

Yeah, so I think, to go way back and probably give it, you know, the full picture, I started being interested in Japan and studying Japanese when I was 12 years old. So kind of an unusual interest, I guess. But I got really passionate about it. It started with Dragon Ball and videogames and all that fun stuff that was getting really popular when I was growing up. 

And one thing led to another and I was taking all kinds of classes after school working with tutors, speech contests. Kind of the whole the whole thing I was doing all in. Yeah, so I got super into it. 

And then I visited Japan for the first time when I was 17. And that was a one month trip around the country to different cities doing a homestay doing language study with this program. And it was just amazing, just blew my mind. It was everything I'd hoped for and more. And so I thought I really want to be able to get abroad. 

And that's why I went to university in the US, but I studied finance, ultimately. So business, as well as Japanese language and culture. So I thought, okay, I want to get to Japan, but I want to try something different than the typical path of maybe teaching English or translating or things like that. 

Omar

Makes sense.

David McNeill

Sorry, go ahead?

Omar  

I said it makes sense. 

David McNeill

Yeah, yeah. 

Omar

I have a curious question there too, right? And I like to think of like, what the temperament of people are that like to do things like this? Especially at such a young age. So right off the bat, the first thing that I can think of asking you is like, were you born in a small town or a city?

David McNeill  

That's an interesting question. I'm moved around a lot, to be honest. So I was born in California. And I say I'm from there if people ask. But really lived in West Coast and South as well. So the funny thing is, maybe, or maybe this is getting to your point of your question, but the interest for me with Japanese started when I was in - living in Mobile, Alabama, so that...a pretty small town.

Omar  

Yeah, random. Alabama, out of all places too.

David McNeill  

Yeah. So then, I mean, I was fortunate enough to be able to move with my family and my dad's job to Los Angeles shortly, like within a year after starting my study, so there were a ton more opportunities that opened up, obviously living in California. But indeed, I think just I mean, we'd had some experiences traveling, growing up, we'd gone to Europe for a couple of weeks, we did a Mexico cruise or different things like that. So very fortunate to have those experiences. 

But I think that sort of showed me that I was interested in being abroad, but then to really hone in on one country, at least initially was where it all kind of began. And yeah, it just went from there as I studied that in university. 

Then when I was 19, I went back to Japan for a month with a friend. And then coming out of that trip, I thought I want to come back to Japan, but not as a tourist. I want to be living here. So it took me many more years to make it happen. But I did move in 2014 to Tokyo. I lived there for two years.

Omar  

So I mean, you… in your head you had to romanticize this place for so long, right? I mean, it started off as a romantic thing. And then from there, it actually happened and you lived there and you learned the language. 

And at this point, I'm quite -  I'm sure you're quite fluent in Japanese as well, which maybe I'll make you pull out in a few minutes here. But, makes me curious. So why would you leave Japan and only spend two years there?

David McNeill  

Yeah. So for me, it was really important the job that I was doing. So I actually started my career in investment banking in the US, that's where I thought coming out of the finance degree in 2010. Maybe this is a good place to start my career. 

But I found it to be not a good fit for me quite quickly. And I was probably the only analyst in my office in Charlotte, North Carolina, thinking in my cubicle, while I was waiting for more work yet more work to do about, I was thinking about my round the world trip, or you know, these kind of dreams. 

So I think, yeah, I mean, it was just more like, what I want to be doing something else, basically. And that was my escape. That was my daydream. And so yeah, it definitely started there. But it was just then I ended up moving to the San Francisco office for that bank. Found there a job in product management. And so that was actually then the sort of the next stage of my career. 

And that's what I found a job doing in Japan. So I was very fortunate to be able to do that. And it was important to me, again, not to just, I could have easily found an English teaching job, and so on nothing wrong with that it just wasn't something that I was, you know, immediately passionate about. 

And so I wanted to be able to leverage my career and internationally. And so I was able to do that in Japan on that job. But unfortunately, that role for a variety of internal business reasons was effectively coming to an end. I wasn't interested in doing something not really related to product management, marketing. And I couldn't find that next job in Japan. 

So that's what led me to Berlin, where there were, it's sort of this startup, dream opportunity, I think. A lot of people are pursuing that now as well. Unless they go to London, it's if they want to be in Europe, it's or maybe Amsterdam, but of course, Berlin as well.

Omar  

So you really enjoyed product management, yet, oddly enough, now you have your own business?

David McNeill  

Right. And I can, I can certainly dig into that. So I think the easiest way to describe it is, I had, let's see six jobs in seven years. And three of those I was laid off from and the other three, I couldn't stand and I quit. 

So, you know, I was, it was a fair share of a half and half of layoffs, and just miserable… misery, I guess, as far as the job is concerned. So I think after all of those ups and downs, you know, it was in the course of that that I started Expat Empire as a side project. 

And now, given this opportunity, obviously, the situation, it's difficult for anybody to get out of their countries right now. But I think there's just going to be that much more interesting opportunity coming out of the situation. And you know, the signs are generally looking better with the vaccine, and so on. 

So I think it's a good time to be thinking about what the world looks like, after these days, and hopefully much more positive and mobile than currently. And, you know, that's been a great part about the people that have reached out to me recently is a lot of people are just thinking about what's next.

Omar  

Did you start this business during the pandemic?

David McNeill  

Yeah, so I had my most recent layoff back in… last October of 2020, with another round of budget cuts for, for this situation. So it's been about six months as of this recording that I've been working on it at full time. And so I guess I would say, kind of was born during this time, but of course, yeah, keeping it going in some form or fashion as a side project for the last couple years.

Omar  

It makes sense. It's funny, like, I like to use this analogy for it, right? You know, how you’re supposed to buy low, sell, sell high, when it comes to the stock market? It's kind of the same way with travel, right? I mean, you know, everyone ran away from travel during the pandemic. And I really think it was all out of fear. 

And the people that actually dived into, into travel and things like that are gonna come out stock leaders or leaders in business and travel industry, as soon as the pandemic is over, which I mean, naturally, it'll happen. Life goes on. 

Travel will open back up again, and people who understood this are gonna want to be the ones that come out on top, right? So do you think that that was one of the maybe, aside from it just being a passion project and a labor of love, because you have traveled to so many different countries? 

And really, that's what kept you going. I mean, you could have gotten a product manager job in the US, but you decided to do it outside of there. Is that love for travel the reason why you started Expat Empire?

David McNeill  

Yeah, I think so. I think it's, I think it's a love for it. It's also the love and appreciation for connecting with other people that are passionate about it. And to be able to help them in this like, really meaningful, important journey and a big step in their lives. So I think it's great from that standpoint. And of course, on a personal level I, in many of my jobs have been able to work remotely. And so I've already experienced that even as an employee. 

That said, of course, it totally changed once the pandemic said, and we couldn't go back to the office. But in this most recent job, I went from the last job I had in Berlin to the job I have here in Porto. The one in Berlin was pretty much fully remote. I mean, I was working from a different country for one week, per month. Just hopping from here to there, wherever I’d get a cheap flight from Berlin airport, you know, one of the two airports there. That was amazing. 

And then I went here to Porto, and it was for a boss that really wanted everyone to be in the office whenever they could. So pretty much every day, you know, really kind of strict on it, to be honest. And it was a shock to go back to that environment. And of course, things changed, as I said, with the pandemic. 

But I, now, I never really want to have to go back to the office again, basically. And I think a lot of people are feeling that, you know, one way or another, whether they're a business owner or not, it's kind of like, “Can we keep this great thing going?” 

And so from that perspective, and the ability to, you know, sponsor my visa, hopefully, eventually get citizenship here, in Portugal. And then, indeed, for even someone said of the year, even if not permanently, and maybe my basis here in Portugal, but I hope to be able to be more remote or more nomadic in in my sort of day to day.

Or rather, your, you know, your long planning, maybe some months will, my wife and I work from this country or that country. So that's what we're kind of looking toward on a personal level. And so I think, having my own business, on top of just being able to be outside of the, the ebbs and flows, the highs and lows of the startup world, at least as an employee working for somebody else, it also enables me to be able to plan for being more nomadic in the future.

Omar  

Makes a lot of sense, man, I think this, that's one of the flexibilities that come with your business, right? Being able to travel whenever you want, not having to go into an office or anything like that. And I mean, this day and age, it's one of those things where we, I guess, collective humanity tasted the freedom of most employers, a lot of them went remote, right? 

Some of them maybe had a little small, remote period, some of them went straight to office, some of them were remote indefinitely. But everyone had that little taste of freedom and realized just how much better it is. And not only that, the employers realize that too. 

And now, because... during the pandemic, there's so many more collaboration tools that came out, I was looking just the other day, but because my team themselves use Adobe Premiere at scale, so like, I was looking at collaboration tools, and under Adobe Premiere, and they came out with something, the cloud or something like that quite recently. So I mean, there's all these different tools, I just don't see why anyone would want to go back to the office, right? 

It's like that, like think about it this way before the internet was made back in the 70s. All you were limited to when meeting people or anything was in your local area, maybe surrounding areas there, right? 

And I don't see why we're so primitive in the workplace as well only limiting ourselves to local talent or flying talent than when we could use the connectivity of the internet to really expand on that to get talent from all over the world, right?

But that begs a different question. Where does competition come in? And all that increases doing all that, but I want to know a little bit more about how you guys are helping the entire movement move forward? And what exactly is Expat Empire's role in this?

David McNeill  

Yeah, of course, we want to play as much of a roll as we can. But recognizing there's so many pieces to it, I think where we've been most helpful most recently to our clients is really helping people to think through, Okay, can I work, you know, at this job that I'm working right now, remotely, the company doesn't care, right? You know, that kind of thing. 

So maybe it's figuring out a location, but obviously talking through some of the logistics and the legal issues as best as we can give overviews of them, you know, we're not lawyers or anything like that. So of course, getting that we have partners that we work with. So of course, we can put people in touch with those folks as well. 

And also just, oh, I want to be a digital nomad, how can I do it? Okay, well, helping them to walk through the steps or get some coaching, work with them more hands on in that way, or even just coming up with helping them come up with business ideas, for example, that would allow them to work remotely and at least get their start. So I think a lot of those pieces are probably where we're able to help in the overall movement. 

Of course, number of our clients are just generally retirees or soon-to-retire looking to where they can go to, but I mean, that's kind of more standard outside of the pandemic as well. But naturally, just giving people a place to talk about their dreams, their passions, what they want to do, and seeing how we can help them to think through it and make it a reality as opposed to not really, you know? 

There's so many people saying this, yeah they’re online, but not necessarily having that personal connection or relationship with them to be able to really dive in and figure out the nitty gritty of the concrete stuff to make it happen. So I think that's what that's where we're able to play a bit of a differentiated role.

Omar  

Yeah, where, like, where exactly and I'm thinking about this from like a marketing perspective, right? Where exactly are people finding you in the first place? And what sorts of people do you find… coming to you, like I guess demographically, especially during the pandemic, looking for different opportunities like this?

David McNeill  

Yeah, it really varies. So I guess on the democra - demographic point, and then we can get to the marketing point. So in demographic point, it tends to be, really when we say that we help anyone move anywhere. And of course, that in a way is difficult, because it doesn't really give us that niche niche of being very specific about a certain route. 

But for me, that was important, at least at this stage. I mean, of course, that may change in the future. But it's important for me, because I realized I was not just the Japan guy, or not just the Portugal or the Germany, or I also studied abroad in Singapore, and I worked for a few months in China, with a previous job. So I mean, I was not any one of those people that just focused on that area. 

And I like the diversity and seeing all different kinds of backgrounds and dreams of people and trying to help them make that happen. So that it ends up leading to a very diverse group of people that we see. But more of our clients tend to be Americans moving here to Europe. And I think it's just a common route. And, again, like I said, it depends on so many different factors, and what people want to do. 

But I think, I mean, at least in general, the free or close to free healthcare, you know, low tuition, if not free, as well, you know, good work life balance and things like that. And of course, depending on if they're working for themselves, or not, all of those things, as well as… 

Yeah, especially for retirees, it's pretty good over here, especially if it can find a warm spot like here in Portugal or in Spain. So I think for all of those reasons, that's kind of what we're seeing more of, and of course, that's my personal experience as well now as an American living here in Portugal. But yeah, yeah, we, we see folks from all different backgrounds, and I'm just thinking, like, through all the people we've been talking to recently, people that maybe never thought about being a digital nomad before, but have picked up on the term. And now they're like, “How can I do that?”, right? 

And I think we're just gonna see more and more people trying to figure that out. Yeah, the beauty of it is that, well, especially for native English speakers, at a minimum, of course, there's so many factors and what people want to do and what they can do, but it's very feasible,but it sounds like, just out of reach. So I think having that, you know, connection with them, being able to provide advice, and obviously coach them as necessary, or give them the tools to be successful, I think makes a difference. On the marketing side of things.

Omar  

Before we move in there. I was reading this interesting article that came out the other day, and someone said it to me, actually, in my Clubhouse room. It was around digital nomad statistics. 

And I was wondering if these statistics match up to the kind of demographics that you're seeing that to you. One thing that I saw was that it's pretty much evenly cut across between men and women. So 50% each side, and has that been the case with you as well?

David McNeill  

I guess I've seen in general, like not looking at specific numbers, but I guess I've seen more recently, maybe more women than men, but not not drastically. But yeah, I guess in terms of just thinking about recent interact, interactions, that's been more of the case. But yeah, it's good to know that it is, at least the numbers bear out in general, on average, that it is pretty equal split. I think that's great to see.

Omar  

Right. And how about, like, in terms of, I guess, income brackets? Do you see? Do you see people that already have established businesses coming in or have a day job and don't know, even know where to start? Do you see people that have been freelancing, or I mean, do you see people from like, third world countries coming: “Hey, like, I have no idea what I want to do.” Like, where do you see people coming from? I mean, US, you said mainly but…

David McNeill  

Yeah, yeah, so it's been mostly US. Certainly from some from third world countries, as well. But I'd say mainly, primarily from the US, in terms of background, a number of people that already have businesses, and they're trying to figure out maybe how to move them abroad or use the businesses in a way to sponsor, you know, maybe a longer term visa in one country or another. If they're not interested in becoming full time digital nomads.

Of course, you have to have families and things as well, they have to think about the schooling aspect. And maybe they just want to have a place to be abroad for a while. And in terms of people specifically interested in becoming digital nomads, a lot of them don't have that business experience yet. So just seeing really like wide eyes, you know, kind of trying to figure it out, and not really sure where to start. 

And actually, to be honest, I think those are the people that reach out to me and through the website and social media. That's what I really enjoy the most is someone saying, “Look, I have this little dream, or I have this idea. I want to pass it by you or I want to see how you can help me to make that happen.”

And I think that's great, because well I know that I can be useful in that case. But also, of course, with anyone reaching out, I'm happy to help as best as I can. But that's something where it's almost like just starting with A clean slate, just a blank slate and just saying where can we go from here and I think it's a lot of fun. You know, I'm excited to be able to help play that role, as we talked about.

Omar  

I really know that feeling like after having this podcast for quite some time, you'll occasionally have people reaching out to me that automatically think I'm in that role of being able to help people out and move to a different country. Which I mean, I have experience with naturally, so I pass on my experiences to them, but I wouldn't call myself certified in it or anything like that, you know?I leave that to the coaches and the consultant. 

David McNeill

Yeah.

Omar

But it's so interesting. And I think like when I'm able to inspire somebody, I guess the same feeling that you get whenever someone DMs you? It's nice man. And, and especially if they're like, oh, like, I'm actually doing this now. Like, I'm going to move. 

And I remember, I had this one girl from Romania. She reached out to me, and we had a conversation, because I think it was one of the first few people that ever reached out to me on my podcast. And we had a conversation through Zoom for about an hour. And by the end of it, I convinced her to book a one way ticket to where she wanted to go. 

Because I - she's kept saying like, well, what if I'm not ready? What if I'm not ready? I'm like, just do it right now. And then she did it. It's not a great feeling, you know? So yeah. Cuz it's possible. And it's easy. You know, it's easier than...

David McNeill  

And I think to your point, like, it's such great advice. What I found with travel was sometimes I mean, again, just travel as a parent, as opposed to moving somewhere. But I would think about, do I want to go here, do I want to go there?

And then it got to a point where it was like, I have not heard of this country really much about it, or anything, or rather than the city in this country. So I'm just going to book the flight. And I'm going to figure out all the rest, like, now I have my flight to plan around, you know? And then I can figure out the rest, or… Frankly, just arrive and do my thing, like kind of know what I like, what I don't like or what I want to do. And I think that's a great place to start. 

And it does take some experience or some courage to be able to maybe do that. But I think after the first time you realize, fretting about the rest is just not all that helpful. Like you can always make a change to move to another place or make the next trip, right?

Omar  

I think it doesn't feel real until you book the flight. Because remember, like, my first trip that I ever left on back in 2016. I was sitting there in front of my laptop, and I had told all my friends, like for the past three, four months that I was going to do this, but I hadn't booked the flight yet.

And I just remember sitting there really nervous, like, like, “Am I really gonna do this?” Like it's a one way ticket, you know, and just sitting there like, kind of contemplating it for 10, 15 minutes, and you know what? Book. And and then it felt real all of a sudden felt like a relief. But at the same time really exciting. It's slightly nervous. 

David McNeill  

Now's your time to get ready, right? It's like, okay, yeah, we're locked and loaded. Let's do this. 

Omar

That's it.

David McNeill

I just want to also mention, like the urge to agree with your notion of being able to help somebody I don't know, with, with this big step in their lives and the way that they're thinking about it. And what what one client has said, which I really appreciated and I could, I could identify with was just that there's sort of an intangible peace of mind, that comes with having somebody to talk to about it, let alone, maybe some of the deliverables and things that we can we can offer. 

But the peace of mind, I think, is something that you have to figure out maybe the way. And maybe this goes back to the marketing aspect, but the way to copyright or the way you know, and I'm not saying I'm perfect, that is always a work in progress. But figuring out the way to tap into those feelings that are hard to otherwise, you know, assign a price point to, for example. Or just to even to get in terms of quality, like a quantitative data, or target against you know, it's difficult, but I think that's a great thing to be able to focus on fixing.

Omar  

I think this is a good bridge to the marketing side, right? What kind of feelings do you find is a driving motivator? For someone wanting to do something like this? Yeah.

David McNeill  

I think it's a bit of there's so much that I don't know. And there's so many possibilities. I mean, even if you just take the idea of being a digital nomad, for someone who hasn't done it before, maybe hasn't traveled all that much. It's like, What do I do? Where do I go? There's so many countries... People are doing this, am I ready? Am I not ready? Do I have the skills? Can I make money? What do my parents think? What do my friends think? What’ll my significant other think? 

So I think all of those pieces, it's just sort of the concern, almost to the point of overwhelm, and anxiety to the point of like, maybe this is too crazy. Or maybe this is too much. Where do I even begin? I think that's a lot of it is like there's so much to take in and there's so much information on the internet. 

I mean, I'm not saying anything brilliant, but it's like there's so much out there then the way that's why all these different apps and newsletters with curation stuff came through is because there's just so much content, right? So I'm not exactly doing the same thing there. But just this idea of, “Okay, let's cut through all the noise. And let's focus on your situation where you're at, where you want to go, how you can get there, how I can help you get there.”

Omar  

I like doing this exercise whenever people mention their own businesses, like, I like, in my head building out their own, like perfect customer buyer avatar. And trying to figure out exactly who that is to nail it down. And I think I have a decent idea of the like, I would say, maybe 90%, or at least 80% of 80, 20 rule, let's say 80% of people that come to you and want your services.

David McNeill

Right. 

Omar

I think it's people that so, starting off with, like just values that people have, right, there's like stability on one side and spontaneity on the other side. I think there may be somewhere on a six out of 10, like a little bit closer to spontaneity, but still like stability. 

And the kind of like maybe a little bit of structure in their life. So they're used to like, trying to plan things out. But they have this adventure side of them, too, that really wants to go and explore the world, but they want maybe a little bit of help and direction and try to structure it the right way.

David McNeill  

Right.

Omar  

Do I have a right so far?

David McNeill  

No, I think that sounds about right. Because I mean, yeah, if you compare it on the, on that spectrum, then indeed, a lot of people I talked to were sort of like checklist people like me, or you know, like, I mean, I can identify with that, because that's exactly how I operate. So people that want to think through the options vary as in sort of an objective and unbiased way as possible. 

But at the same time, indeed, looking for the adventure, I'm sure when they're out in the road, having some spontaneity as well. But I suppose the most fun spontaneous people with, of course, maybe not in this exact moment in time, but just pack a rucksack and just go off somewhere, right? So...

Omar  

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's, I think this way, because like, I think to myself, why didn't I get a service like this? And that's simply because I think I fall just a little bit further in the spontaneity scale, or everything I pretty much do as a last minute whim, that kind of notion. Besides, like, you know, any, that was gonna happen last minute. But if you look at it, I didn't pack till, like two days before I left, so...

David McNeill  

Yeah, that sounds a little bit spontaneous.

Omar  

It's things like that, you know? But yeah, that's, that's really cool. So I guess we can jump into the marketing side of it, then where are people finding you these days?

David McNeill  

Yeah, so it all started for me with, again, with the book and the podcasts and so on, I didn't have any real vision, except I want to also be able to make money online, you know? That was kind of, again, I had so many bad working experiences that I was like, I need to find, start building a way out of this. And, and I'm, I don't know, I guess you could say calculated risk taker, or a bit more risk adverse, because even in most cases, I was leaving jobs to go to new jobs that I already had. 

And, of course, there's the element of thesis and things that come into play with that. But, so, they're not anyway, I one day, just put up the consulting landing page, I just wrote it. I was basically telling my story. Kind of saying, a bit of what I could help people with, but in kind of a very vague way. 

And then from that, I started to just get traffic to that. Which was pretty cool. So I was getting people coming from Google. Some were, of course, filling out the form, I guess, you know, as usual, most don't. But then I started talking to them. And through that, I developed the services. 

And of course, I still try to keep it as personalized and unique as possible. 

But the services were also coming not just from my experience, so those are my peers, or colleagues or things like that. But also, of course, these conversations. And so from the marketing side, I mean, it's since grown much more traffic on site through the content that we're creating, we're putting out there. There's even more that can be done that front. 

But you know, now we're adding some video where we will be soon rather, doing more blog posts, trying to be more consistent in the podcasting side and putting that out there. And of course, tapping into, for example, the Facebook groups where the expats are. The challenge there, of course, is that it's more city or country driven in terms of what the focus of most of those groups are. 

And of course, that's useful if we're creating content that's specific to a country or that situation. But, you know, yeah, we're looking more into how we can tap into more digital nomad networks as well, which was kind of more of a recent change, given the the world how it's changed in the last year. So we're still figuring that piece out. 

And I think honestly, it's still a bit early days for us. But it is difficult to be able to answer the question confidently, in some sort of metric based fashion, like this person is interested in moving to a new country. That's, that's kind of a hard one to crack. So it's just been more, making sure we're doing whatever we can from organic perspective. 

And then we can start looking into more possibilities in the paid side, but I definitely want to make sure that the conversion rates are good. The  website’s as good as it needs to be. I think it's pretty much there by now. But it's like, yeah, I think I need to jump over the hump of basically starting to spend on paid marketing as well to be able to tap into more, you know, more people outside of our own network or around reach right now.

Omar  

Yeah, I mean, a decision like that is usually emotion-based, right? Even if they're moving for work, or if it's a very, very logical decision, it's... There's an undercurrent of emotion behind it. Whether it's wanting adventure, or wanting a new start, or just wanting some change in their life.

And where paid advertising, really, really excels is hitting down that emotional undercurrent of what's driving somebody so that they make a decision, right on the spot to at least click through and see what something's more about. 

Dave McNeill

Yeah. 

Omar

And just from thinking and working with a lot of paid advertisers in my past, and currently as well. I think like, honestly, one of the best ways that you guys could even, I guess, implement into your own ad copy for paid advertising would be something just like, “Are you feeling stuck?” Or you know the standard, like, you don't want to be working a nine to five for the rest of your life.

Those emotional arguments that people always use, which are so outplayed to people like you and I. But really still definitely work, you know? Because -

Dave McNeill

Yeah.

Omar

That transition now we're all just a lot of people are just becoming much more aware about the possibilities when it comes to remote work, so...

David McNeill  

Yeah, that's great feedback. And I've tried to integrate a lot of that copy. And of course, what I'm hearing from the people I'm talking to people reaching out and so on, into the website. But indeed, just being able to utilize that with the right inventory, the right copy for paid ads. Makes perfect sense.

Omar  

That's exactly. It's just an optimization. The aim at that point. 

Dave McNeill

Yeah. 

Omar

Cool. So I want to jump this back into your travels here for a minute, right? So you lived in four or five different countries. How many countries have you actually visited?

David McNeill  

I think I'm at 59 right now. So I just need that one extra one to push me to 60. Yeah.

Omar  

Yeah, I've only been to seven, believe it or not. But I'm a very slow traveler. Like I like staying anywhere from six months to a year in any country sometimes. And you know, that's how you really soak in a place.

David McNeill  

Yeah, definitely.

Omar  

Yeah. So I guess it's like mid between expat and nomadic somewhere between there. 

David McNeill

Yeah. 

Omar

But out of all those, I guess, 59 countries, which is a really obscure number. What was your favorite one? And why?

David McNeill  

Oh, man.

Omar

That's always on my head. So yeah…

Omar  

What is one very memorable memory that you remember from a country? What was the memory? And do you think that made the country better overall in your eyes because of it?

David McNeill  

Oh, okay. Let me think for a second here. I mean, there's definitely, of course, countries that stand out to me from my travels, I think. Or, well, I guess, I would guess that you would probably experience this. 

But if you're doing more of a slow travel, writing, you might not. But when you're going from country to country to country, in a short period of time, it can really start blurring together in a way that's a bit unfortunate. Because you, I mean, especially if you're within one region of the world. It's like: temple, temple temple or church, museum, so on. But there are still a few. 

So even amidst that, I think what's important is finding the places that stand out to you, within maybe this kind of whirlwind travel, if you do that style of traveling. So, and to be honest, those are the places that I've tried to live. 

So for me, Japan was always a place that absolutely blew my mind. I mean, the easy answer to your question is Japan, right? Like, I mean, it's sort of the easiest one, and it was my dream for so long, and really to get to go there and to see so many. It's a small country, but with so many different things to see. Like it just almost feels like it has everything or you could like endlessly find some interesting city, or village to go to and just make it incredible. But you know, Japan...

Omar  

You think you'd move back?

David McNeill  

So it's something I've talked about with my wife who's Japanese, but we met in Berlin. So we met outside of our respective home countries. But now we're in a new country for both of us and Portugal that's outside of our home countries, but I think it would be a situation where, yeah, frankly, I would never again want to work for another Japanese company. 

I mean, I'm not saying I had the worst possible situation. Far from it, but it's just a difficult work environment. So, again, if I'm able to do this type of work and continue that in Japan, and I think it would be great. But I think both of us are still, at least as at this stage, looking to be outside of our home country. 

So probably not in the near future. But definitely visit a lot. And it's great to have her family there because, well, they're wonderful. We get along great. But also, there's really a reason to go, you know? As opposed to just seeing the greatest hits tour around Tokyo, which is fun as well, but it's kind of steeped more in nostalgia than new memories, you know?

Omar  

Makes sense. Let's keep it on Japan, then. Like what's like a really memorable moment for you in Japan? I know there's been plenty in here is your one that kind of stands out the moment that I asked you that question?

David McNeill  

Yes. I did. I mean, yeah, there's some great stuff like, so just to give some examples, because it's probably not one. Okay, if I actually I'll give, I'll give one, I'll give one because I think it's a nice story. I try to keep it short, if it's alright. If it's getting too long, let me know. But my, my dad had a Japanese exchange student stay with the family when he was I think around 16, 17. So this was, again, in Mobile, Alabama, that's where my dad's family's from. 

And so, you know, having this Japanese exchange student there for three weeks, they had a great experience, but could barely communicate. 

Omar

Right. 

David McNeill

And, you know, fast forward some decades. And now I, strangely enough, and maybe, actually, partially because I heard those stories, for one reason or another, I started studying Japanese, right? And, again, then fast forward a bit. So I'm in Japan, and I just had a very, like, different, you know, interesting name, it wasn't the John Smith of, you know, Japanese names, it was interesting name. So, one day after work, when I was maybe a month or two in Japan, living there, I just went online and searched the name. 

And this website came up, which was kind of like a yellow pages online Yellow Pages, basically. And it was his name in the same city, where he, his family was from. So it was no guarantee that it was the right person, but I thought, you know, might as well just take out my phone and dial this number. And, and then I'm waiting there kind of like thinking about what am I gonna say in Japanese to this person that doesn't know that I exist and hasn't talked to my dad in like, 30 years. 

And then a boy, young boy answers the phone. And I just like, like, asking Japanese like, is this guy here, you know, like, really kind of not sure what to expect. And then it's like, basically some shuffling sounds, and then all of a sudden, older man's voice. And it was, it was the guy like, I actually found, you know, 30 years later, the exchange student that my dad had built this relationship with. 

Yeah. And it was it was awesome. Like, I mean, it was obviously shocking. I can only imagine being in his shoes getting this call. But what was really, I guess, the moment outside of that call, of course, that was very memorable. 

But the real moment was when my dad came to visit. This guy came from, I can't remember off top my head exactly what city he was in. But he came into Tokyo. And we spent like, the weekend together with also his son who speaks really good English. So we were like, it was just, it was just a weird, crazy, you know, the only small world experience, right?

Omar  

Yeah, that's super cool experience, man. What a crazy experience to have. Did your dad, well, at that point, I'm sure he'd gotten some English then, right? Like he actually communicated. And maybe when he was over at their house, even though they couldn't communicate that much. I'm sure they got close to some degree. So how was it like seeing the dynamic between them two after so many years?

David McNeill  

It was interesting. I mean, unfortunately, you know, I guess, as you might expect, my dad doesn't speak Japanese and his exchange student friend, who's now in his 50s and whatnot, is... doesn't really speak English. But of course, my dad's son -me, speaks Japanese, his son speaks English. So it was a really interesting opportunity to be able to play the translator in between the interpreter. 

And, you know, even after that, then they exchanged some emails, but again, just like back in the day when, so, when the student went back to Japan, they exchanged some written letters. But that you know, that and his, you know, sister, my aunt were like writing in English. He's writing back in Japanese. 

So actually, one of the things I did earlier on before all that was my dad found the old letters, and so I translated the old letters for him, you know, when I was like in high school, or university, and then just to be able to then play the interpreter during their, their second meeting. But then also following that they sent some more messages, again in English and Japanese. 

So now you have Google Translate, which makes it easier. But Google Translate’s still pretty weak for Japanese. I mean, it's great for Portuguese or these other kind of, you know, European languages. But just to be able to help out with that was really cool.

Omar  

That's such a like, nice, wholesome, nostalgic, feel good story.

David McNeill  

Yeah, it's a fun one to share. Just because it's, I mean, especially for people who can appreciate how crazy and small world it is. It's, I'm glad I could do that. And I think I really tried to give my dad the best Japan trip possible. So I feel good about that from a son perspective.

Omar  

That's awesome. Good. Cool. So one final, I guess we can wrap it up with this final question here, right? And I asked everybody that comes on my podcast, this question. Maybe you've heard some variation of it on another podcast, or anything I listened to compared to lots of maybe you’ll recognize that. 

But if you had - this is the question - if you had a billboard in space, and every single time the sun rose up, everyone on planet Earth could see that billboard in a universal language, right? And every time the sun went down, the billboard went away, right? If you could, if you could write just a few sentences, or maybe one sentence on that billboard, what would I say?

David McNeill  

The first thing that popped into my head, which was probably the best one to answer with this, just keep going. And I guess to give a little flavor to it… I think a lot of the dreams I had growing up about Japan about living and working abroad, about traveling, all of this stuff seemed so difficult to make happen. And it's one of those things that I didn't really know how it would happen, or how… 

There was a long time between University where I had the dreams of working in Japan to actually getting there. Like I said, working with other jobs working in San Francisco, that the how it's like, I knew what I wanted, and I knew why I wanted it. I just didn't know how and I think I've seen that again, time and time again, that this happens, like you don't know how it's gonna happen. But you have your dreams, and to be able to accomplish those. 

The Japan one, then Berlin was always in the back of my mind to make that happen, then here in Portugal with my wife, and like, yeah, there's always new and bigger dreams, or like, you know, you're never really at the top of the mountain, I think. 

But just keep going. Because I think if you keep that dream alive, if you keep it, you know, well, not just keep it to yourself, but like, keep it alive, tell other people, try to make stuff happen. Take opportunities, when they present themselves, then the how will become clear. So maybe that's that would be what I would say,

Omar  

I 100% stand by that. And I say that all the time. And if someone asked me, like, I actually had somebody who listens to my podcast reached out to me, and they're like, you asked this question to people all the time, what would you answer? And I said exactly that. 

I said, just keep going. Yeah, I mean, they have a million words for it. Law of attraction, manifestation, like, whatever you want, right? But really, at the end of the day, it's just you focusing on one thing that you really want in your life. And naturally, your mind and body just starts making small decisions to get you towards that. If you want it bad enough, you're constantly making decisions that only want that thing and nothing else, right? 

David McNeill

Right.

Omar

So that's, that's really what it is. Like, I think you can accomplish anything you want in life. Maybe aside from well, given a long enough timeline, even magic's possible. So….

David McNeil

Sure. 

Omar

Yeah, that's really, it's a great piece of advice. And I think that's a good place to end it. So where can people find you and Expat Empire?

David McNeill  

Yeah, absolutely. So I'd recommend anyone who's interested to check out Expat Empire dot com. You can get a free eBook there: “Top 10 Tips For Moving Abroad”, based on my last seven years of living and traveling around the world, working around the world. 

And of course, if you're interested, I'm happy to talk through any ideas around remote working to becoming a digital nomad or moving to a country long-term. And so we have free 30-minute consulting calls, right? I can just get on the phone with you and figure out where you're at, give some advice and see if there's an opportunity for us to be able to work together. 

Omar  

Awesome. That sounds great. Thank you so much for coming on today, David.

David McNeill  

Yes. Thank you for having me. It's been a real pleasure. 

Omar

Awesome. That was a great episode with David McNeil. I forgot to say he's incredibly knowledgeable about the whole Nomad expat lifestyle. 

If you want to learn more about what David does, be sure to check his website out at expatempire.com you could be the next person he helps to get on your nomadic journey.