How to Become a 6-Figure Digital Nomad Through Copywriting With Francis Nayan | TNE 80

Writing 500-word blog posts changed the life of my guest this week. By now, you’re probably aware that copywriting is a high level skill that can truly transform your business and career. In this episode, I am joined by the founder and CEO of Stories and Copy, Francis Nayan, who went from teaching English to kindergarteners in Budapest to becoming a world-class email copywriter and strategist after realizing that teaching wasn’t his kind of genius. Francis’ copy continues to stay within the 500 word count mark, but it’s definitely helped grow businesses and build networks.

In this episode, Francis talks about how he went from zero to hero through Fiverr gigs and the once-in-a-lifetime opportunity that gave him a boost in his copywriting journey. Newly minted copywriters can also take a page from Francis’ book as he reveals the formula he follows when writing email copy. In addition to this, Francis also shares his insights and strategies towards client acquisition. The eightieth episode of The Nomadic Executive comes loaded with stories and value that you can takeaway and apply in your own journey.

Timestamps:

[7:24] When Francis realized teaching wasn’t his zone of genius

[13:34] The once-in-a-lifetime break that gave Francis a boost in his journey

[24:33] The copywriting formulas you need to know about 

[28:21] Read these books if you want to get really good at copywriting

[28:53] This is the actual benefit of joining masterminds

[40:39] Why you need to try the digital nomad life at least once in your life

Links:

Learn more about Francis Nayan’s email copywriting and email strategies at: https://www.storiesandcopy.com/

Get in touch with Francis Nayan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/francis-nayan-56284516a

Omar's (Host) Social Media:

Instagram - @nomadables

TikTok - @nomadables

Facebook Group - NOMADABLES - Accountability & Growth Community for Remote Workers- Perfect to meet fellow online entrepreneurs, remote workers, and digital nomads.

YouTube - Omar Mo

LinkedIn - Omar Mo Nomads Cast

Twitter - @nomadables

Pintrest - @nomadables

Clubhouse - @pods

WEBSITE: https://www.nomadables.com/

Transcript

How to Become a 6-Figure Digital Nomad Through Copywriting With Francis Nayan | TNE 80

Omar  
I'm assuming about half of you guys listening to this episode right now want to become locationally independent one day. Being locationally independent is being someone who can travel to any city in the world, from Paris to Bali and everything in between, and be just fine. If that's the case, you're definitely going to want to tune into today's episode. 

We're joined by Francis Nyan. He's got an inspiring story starting as a copywriter by referral and working his way up to a full on email marketer that makes over six figures while working half the time and traveling the world. We get really deep into how he got to start and build his business so I can almost guarantee you if you follow the framework he lays out in this episode, you'll soon be locationally independent yourself.

Intro

You're listening to The Nomadic Executive hosted by Omar from nomadables.com. 

Join Omar as he sits down and speaks with leading online entrepreneurs, remote workers and digital nomads about everything from business strategy to travel and lifestyle design. 

Together, we're here to help you achieve a life of happiness, health and freedom. And now here's your host, Omar Mo.

Omar

All right, Francis Nyan. Welcome to The Nomadic Executive man, super stoked to have you. You are currently in Budapest because of a series of unfortunate situations. 

But that's still pretty dope that you're in Budapest because a lot of us are out here in America, drinking coffee on a morning. So 

Francis Nayan

Yeah.

Omar

Always nice to be around, man. 

Francis Nayan

Oh, for sure. For sure. 

Omar

You’re a copywriter. You've done some awesome work and I'm super excited to have you on.

Francis Nayan  

Yeah, thank you so much, man. I mean, it's been a while since I've been in the States. Definitely miss it. I think I'm a little ways... I'm a little jealous. And they've got the NBA Playoffs going on. I haven't even seen it. I haven't even seen the layup but like four years. So, I mean, and I'm from Memphis so I definitely miss that. 

Omar

Grizzlies, huh?

Francis Nayan

But Grizzlies fly diamond. But yeah, thank you so much for having me. Big fan of your podcast. Been listening for a while. So had the urge to send you an email. And yeah, thanks for having me.

Omar  

It's always nice whenever there's like two types of people that reach out to you, right? One is a type of person that's listened to your podcast and really enjoys it. The other one is a person that’s listened to one episode or listened to half an episode, did some pretty good outreach and decides to bring on. Both types of guests. I appreciate it. But I appreciate your type a little bit more, you know?

Francis Nayan  

Yeah, for sure. I've been listening for a while and you know, a big fan of that David McNeil podcast. I actually, because of that episode, I actually reached out to him, and I'm looking to move and have residency in Portugal. So I might be... 

Omar

Is that right?

Francis Nayan

Yeah, so you're helping me kind of get my life together. And so… guess you got David, a new client.

Omar  

You never know how much the podcast itself can bring in ROI for other people that come on. Right. But it really does work. It really does. 

And I think a lot of my guests now have actually gotten some clients here, there, which is nice. Especially the agency ones are the ones that do have some sort of skill that people need, right? So that's always really nice. 

But yeah, why don't you go ahead and give my audience a little elevator pitch about who you are?

Francis Nayan  

Yeah, well, thank you for having me on here. As Omar said, my name is Francis Nayan. I'm an email copywriter, and email marketing strategist for e-commerce businesses, coaches, consultants and experts. 

And what I specialize in is writing emails, and creating an entire sophisticated, robust email marketing strategy that makes you money on autopilot and help you out with you know, product launches, selling your products, evergreen, and overall creating awesome engagement with your audience through email. 

And I'm a writer, I'm also a stats guy and what I do is completely done for you. So yeah, I think that's about it.

Omar  

Did you start off with that? Did you start off as an email marketer when you first got into the whole remote work, freelancing slash business world?

Francis Nayan  

Oh, man, definitely not. I mean, you know, I, I started this journey because I wanted, I wanted to work online because I was living in Budapest as an English teacher. And I, like, after two years, I absolutely just liked it. And I needed to find, I needed to find something. 

And, you know, I had some friends here who were doing online business stuff. And they were like, Francis, what did you do in the past that like, maybe you can get paid for? And I was like, I don't know, I wrote my school newspaper and things like that. 

You know, I discovered things like content writing. And so at first, like my very first gig was like, as a content writer. And I wrote like, a $5 like blog posts for some IT company. I know nothing about IT. It took me like six hours to write 500 words, but yeah, no, definitely a journey. Definitely. My way to being a copywriter.

Omar  

That first client you got through your content writing, how did you land them? Was it through a referral? Fiverr, Upwork? What was it?

Francis Nayan  

Yeah, I did it through Upwork. And I was like, so bad. Like, you know, I was just applying to everything. I haven't been on Upwork in a while. Not sure if the rules have changed. But I, yeah, it was just through Upwork. 

Someone just posted something. And I was like, you know, please hire me when I want to make this. I want to make this work. And yeah, he was just like a $5 blog post. And even though it's $5 it's kind of like, I think anyone who makes money online. You always remember. 

Oh, man, I got that $5 like PayPal notification. And I was like, Oh my god, I have a business now. And you know, I tried to transfer it to my card. I tried to transfer it to my card and it was.. 

Omar  

Right away, the $5!

Francis Nayan

Yeah!

Omar

Let me take that 2% off for the fee. It's fine. Let me just get 475 But let me transfer to my card really quick!

Francis Nayan  

Yeah, I was just like… Yeah, I was like, I'm gonna send it over and then like, I tried to deposit it so I could withdraw it out of my card. And he was like, yeah, $0.25 like charge. 

Omar

Right.

Francis Nayan

So basically, it was really only like $1.50. I think my friend bought like half my beer after, like after, I got it. But yeah, that was the beginning.

Omar  

That is hilarious. That is such a relatable story too. Because no matter what online industry you started in, whether it's ecommerce or agency or service business or freelancing or whatever, that first time that money hits your bank, you realize, like, Damn this, it's real. This is possible. We can do this over and over again, what's stopping me from doing this over and over again, right? 

But it's funny that you say you started as an English teacher, you know, because I think this stereotypical way of people wanting to work online first, naturally, I think every English speaker to some degree gravitates towards teaching English, whether that's online teaching Chinese kids in China, or in person teaching Eastern European kids English, you know?

It's always some way. And it's cool that you ended up as an American all the way in Budapest, to go ahead and teach English there. But for my audience here that maybe want to go down that route, what deterred you from wanting to teach English longer and actually take an online business job?

Francis Nayan  

Yeah, I mean, nothing, nothing. I have nothing against teaching English online. Teaching English abroad. It was just for me, I realized that it just wasn't my zone of genius. I absolutely love the games. I love my co-workers. There's like a weird kind of bonding thing with like, other teachers when you have a bad day. 

For me, it was it was just wasn't in the cards, you know, and I think I realized that when I would wake up, and I would, like, kind of hate my life, and might be a harsh word, and kind of a harsh, like, description, but that's how it was. I wake up and, you know, I would be like, Oh, man, I have to do this again. 

And I worked in a kindergarten. So these kids, like, couldn't even speak English. And my coworkers got, you know, they couldn't speak English, either. 

Omar  

So, is that what it was? Kind of like the lack of community, or was it more than repetition? The routine of it that kind of disturbed you?

Francis Nayan  

I think it was, it was, yeah, it was one of the routine. Because I like to people, even the teachers, you know, I can speak decent Hungarian. So it was alright but it it was just wasn't me, you know, I knew there was more out there. 

And then I was kind of thinking, can I do this for another year? Can I do this for another 2,3, 4 or 5? I was like, you know, hell no. And if if if the Hell no, then I should probably get out of it. And I think once I realized that, which was around the autumn of 2017, I decided to find something else.

Omar  

Yeah, find something else. That makes sense. So your first thing was a $5 gig. How did that start stemming off? What direction did you take it?

Francis Nayan  

Yeah, I mean, I took it in like yeah, so that was my first $5 gig and then like my next gig didn't come for another like two months. And at this point, I went all into it. I went all into it. I actually didn't have a laptop when I started writing.

Omar

You were doing it on your phone?

Francis Nayan 

Oh no, I bought a laptop on Facebook Marketplace for, like, $200 which was like half of my Hungarian teacher salary. And so I was like, man, I have to like make this up to make this work. 

And so I just maintain pitching to people and just yeah, just trying to make it work eventually I did get you know, one other like content writing job and then one guy who wanted me to write the emails for his I think he's like cryptocurrency course, it's just a couple years ago. So...

Omar  

How were you pitching people? This was still Upwork?

Francis Nayan  

This is still Upwork. I think I was in a few like Facebook groups for for copywriting jobs. But you know, those, that's, it's really hard to get a job through those. I mean, you can even if you do, and it's a good one, you can consider yourself super lucky. 

And it can be a goldmine, because depending on how you pitch, who you work with, you never really know. But eventually, I was working with this kind of agency, writing their blogs, eventually writing their emails. 

And then I think my big break was a parent in the kindergarten that I was working with. He had the he was working for a startup, and it was called Karate Combat. And they were like a full contact fight league. And they needed a copywriter, someone who can write their social media posts, write their emails, write scripts for their broadcasting. And I did that for six months, and it was my first big retainer gig. 

And yeah, it was really cool because I got to, one, you know, work with all of these awesome marketers who work for UFC, Facebook, YouTube, all these like awesome companies. But then I actually had like reference experience. Yeah, I can actually ask people how to, you know how to get clients and how to work and things like that and then...

Omar  

This was within the first six months, you said, of you doing this? 

Francis Nayan

Yeah, this was probably around month seven, I would say. So my question for you is, like you came from an English teaching background, I get that, and you probably wrote quite a bit. But to go from that to like, go into sales copy is a pretty big transition. 

How did you, A, avoid, like the imposter syndrome that comes with it? Because I definitely have felt that where, and I think everybody does, to some degree goes through it when they maybe just graduated high school or college with a completely different degree. 

And then all of a sudden, they're making big bucks with an agency that somebody just probably learned on YouTube over the span of a year. You know, honestly, that's how it goes, right? 

Francis Nayan

Right.

Omar

And how did you avoid that imposter syndrome? And then, B, where you fit and able to… Or, actually three questions, right? So question number two, how did you manage the land that client specifically? Because that's a pretty big retainer for a while. 

And then number three, did you feel like you were ready to be able to take on that kind of work?

Francis Nayan  

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Awesome, awesome questions. And so the first one, you know, how did I with the imposter syndrome? I definitely didn't avoid it. It smacked me right in the face, you know, when I was like, because, yeah, not only was it like, consistent work, but the stuff I was writing was being seen by 1000s to hundreds of 1000s. 

And now the stuff that was being read was, um, I'm not sure if you're like a big like fight fan, but the boss Bruton who is like, you know, the Michael Jordan of like, with the UFC or MMA, you know? He was like, one of my co workers. And so it's becoming like a big deal. And all these people are reading my stuff. And for me, I just had to embrace it. 

I knew that but even if I had imposter syndrome, then that means I'm heading in the right direction. That means I care enough, which is something I never had when I was teaching. 

So yeah, I was maybe a little insecure, but I didn't want to be insecure, which meant that, you know, it was a good thing that I was, I was on this path. And so yeah, I mean, if you're having imposter syndrome, it's I think it's, it's one of the things you… It’s something you definitely need to work through. And, you know, maybe work with a coach or no journal about it. 

Yeah, definitely done a lot of that. But if you haven't, then it's a good thing. It means you really care. So I think embrace it and just know like, that's what it really means. And what's the second question?

Omar  

How did you actually land that gig in the first place? And what was the interview process like? Or did they just say, “Hey, you got the gig.” Because some clients are like, “Oh, you know what? I think you know your stuff. You seem like a smart guy. Here's a job.” How’d it go?

Francis Nayan  

Yeah, yeah, man, looking back at it. Now, I have no idea how I got the job. Because I had no like social media copy experience, and no email experience. I was just, I was just writing blogs at that point. Still, I mean, some emails here and there, but definitely nothing super branded, like a fight league or something like that. 

I got it because of the father in the kindergarten, I'm not sure if he pulled some strings, or was just like, Hey, take a chance on this kid, or because they were a startup and I was asking for not that much money. Compared to maybe what other people were getting, they were like, okay, we can have him for a couple months and get someone better, which eventually they did. But I got it. 

And he contacted me  and I was like, his kid’s teacher for like two years. And me and him barely spoke. But then, you know, we get on a call. And he's like, yeah, we're, you know, we're a startup we're trying to become like the next like UFC and we need a writer. He's, I can get you an interview. Maybe I can get you another one. 

 And so, you know, I sent over my stuff and looking back at it now I kind of cringe because I had no relevant experience. But for me, it didn't matter. I was like, I'm just gonna go for it. Right. 

And, yeah, I got asked for the interview. And the interview was pretty nerve wracking because there was like five or six different people there and they were all kind of grilling me. I didn't see their faces, which makes it - which made it a little bit easier. But I was still really nervous. And so that ended I got another call with the the CMO and CEO, and I think they just wanted to like, kind of tell me about more about the job and like how much I was getting paid. 

And then like about a week later, dad who hooked it up was like, Hey, you got it start next week. And yeah, it was like, pretty overwhelming, because I'm getting thought, all of this software and all of these things like that. And so it was pretty nice.

Omar  

Yeah. How much were you charging at that time?

Francis Nayan  

Yeah, this was a $2,000 a month retainer. And it was only super part time it was probably only 10 hours a week. So I think looking back at it now it was like, “Wow, Actually, like, that's a pretty awesome gig.” Yeah. Especially seeing them now or they have like, like the guy who plays The Mountain on Game of Thrones, he's like one of their spokespersons now. 

They have all these... Yeah, I mean, they have like nearly a million followers now on on Instagram, and they broadcasted everywhere. They're on CBS. And, yeah, it's really cool to see you because I remember when we only had like, 35,000 followers on Instagram, and like, no one was watching this. But yeah...

Omar  

Did you find like an inner inner sense of fulfillment or reward from seeing that? 

Francis Nayan  

Oh, yeah, yeah, I mean, you know, nowadays, I still feel really proud because of it. Because, you know, they did push me over a lot of, you know, I was able to help produce some videos on their social media stuff. 

And just seeing that, and just, you know, I'm like, you know, there's all these cameras around me. And like, you know, I'm like, telling people how to, like film this, and I have no idea. I have no idea what I'm doing. I'm still just a copywriter. But just to see, you know, some of my stuff still out there. It's, yeah, man, really proud.

Omar  

I think this is a time to for a good lesson here. And that's something that both of us have realized down the road that I want to share my audience. I think when people come into the online business world or freelancing world, they come in with the mentality of, “Hey, I want to make some money and all that.” 

And all that is great, right? Everyone wants to make some money. Because at the end of the day, this online business world is kind of a gold rush right now. But you'll never be successful, or have clients that pay long term, if you don't actually care, right? 

So I've definitely had clients in the past where I was just like, “Oh, yeah, like I got them signed up great, another 1500, coming in, another few 1000 coming in this month,” but I never really give a shit about them. Right? I've had clients like that in the past, because I would have for whatever reason I signed them, but realize, you know, they're probably not the ideal fit. So let's see how it goes. 

But when I started becoming super focus on only signing people that I care about working with, and very being very discerning about making sure I can give them results. Not only did they stay longer, but I got an inner sense of reward as well for seeing them grow. And the more they grew, the happier they got, the happier they got, the more I paid off in dividends anyways, whether it was through referrals, or bigger retainers, etc. 

And you indirectly experienced that right away with one of your first big clients. Right, it became more rewardable. But I'm guessing that kind of what you were able to leverage into other deals as well as that, right?

Francis Nayan  

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Definitely. Because, you know, I was, I was really had a relationship with the company, and I wasn't just that an employee or a freelancer, I would really get to know every person there because of, you know, because some of those people that are in because the company is now a lot bigger. 

can look at that and think, oh, wow, he worked with this big company, or he worked with her, who worked with this person, you know, I even landed a client is in the martial arts industry. 

I haven't been in a fight, like once my entire life, maybe fought my demons, but like, that's about it. But right. Like, he just saw that, you know, he I worked for, for this company. And because of that, and I shared all my stuff. He was like, yeah, let's work together. Like, that's awesome. 

And, you know, I'm still working with them now. And now we have an awesome like retainer and plus a profit share deal. And, yeah, it's as long as if the more you care about your work and your clients, then it's kind of like a weird, like, law of attraction thing. It's just like, you'll get more abundance coming your way and goodwill, but um, I think there's something to it.

Omar  

Sure. So how did you scale from that point, like, at this point? Like you're making six figures a year? What did you do for client acquisition? And what kind of systems did you put in place as well?

Francis Nayan  

Yeah, well, after that company, I was actually bouncing around because they, I left the company they hired someone else who could, who could do... who could write some copy and then manage stuff and just another skill set. 

And through that, I honed in more on one specific skill. So a lot of copywriters, you know, they they kind of do everything they write video sales letters, tech sales letters, advertorials, email, copy, things like that, and I focused solely on writing emails. 

Even nowadays, I rarely write anything longer than, like, 500 words when I write, you know, on a project. And so I focus mostly on email. So anytime I did outreach, anytime I did a project or wrote some type of content on social media or even spoke on a podcast, it was only about email. 

And because of that people would view me as you know, as an expert, I would have some authority and because of that, people were reaching out to me saying, you know, here's my email system. You know, what can you do to help me out? 

And because of that, once I had like a certain number of making a certain like income, I was able to charge more. And once I started to charge more, I started working with less clients. But now I was saving more time. And right, I still wanted to focus on, you know, my zone of genius was, which is the writing. 

So, you know, I ended up hiring a content writer who can, you can write blogs for, you know, for my clients. And, you know, I had someone who could handle the tech, the tech side of things. And email marketing, we use ESP, as you know, the klaviyo is the MailChimp, the active campaigns convert kits, and I have someone who is an expert at using all of those. 

And so anytime I write copy, then I essentially send it off to him to implement it. If there's any issues, then, you know, he can handle it. If I have an idea, like, hey, I've noticed that part of the email list, does this, you know, has this type of behavior, let's create an automation? Or can we create an automation that, you know, we can offer them something and that way, we can make it more on autopilot. 

And because of that, I now save more time, and I can really focus all my energy on working best, which is the writing. Of course, I have to go in and do the tech stuff sometimes or, you know, write out the podcast pitch for the business and things like that. But basically, I, the way I was able to scale was focusing on one thing, and hiring other people who are better at the other things. 

And then also just being very clear on what kind of business I want. You know, before this, you asked, I was an agency and you know, definitely not an agency. Nor do I ever want to be one.

Omar  

Because you enjoy writing a ton.

Francis Nayan  

I enjoyed writing it. And I think I had a taste of the agency life. And it's like, okay, but I'm so like a creative person that like, kind of managing people and being in constant meetings, which I was just when I was doing was just a bit a bit much for me. Plus I love writing people's voices and learning about offers. That's what I'm passionate about. So yeah, that's what I love doing.

Omar  

Super interesting. You say that I have a friend named Alex Fasulo, who was on my podcast, maybe a few months back, and she's a copywriter as well, right? She is more of a generalist copywriter. She has a gig on Fiverr that does really, really well. 

The way she decided to scale was just to bring on more copywriters on her team that maybe don't have completely the skill set that she does, but are close enough. And what she'll do now is that they'll book Fiverr gigs, and then they'll just switch up between who's doing it, you know what I mean? 

So that's, that's another way of scaling that I've heard. And then finally, I have a friend named Jonathon Zamora, whose podcast is coming out probably in the next three weeks on my show, and he built an agency entirely around email marketing, specifically targeting ecommerce businesses. 

And what he'll do is just run a sequence on Klaviyo, or one of these different platforms usually Klaviyo, though I think, and whether it's retargeting or returned a shopping cart, or one of these sequences, and it just run those emails for them. And I think he makes some more close, like 70 to 100k a month, which is nuts. 

So it's weird, or it’s funny seeing all these different scalability models around copywriting. And then email marketing from what I've found, seems to be the most fruitful one, right? And there's something that you said earlier to me that kind of piqued my interest. 

It was that you said that you follow a specific formula for every single email that you write. So could you give us that formula? A quick rundown of the way it works.

Francis Nayan  

Yeah, man. Yeah, I mean, so for me when I when I think of a great email, you know, if there is like a certain kind of a structure to it, so you can't just go in and say, “Hey, Omar buy my you know, buy my by my course, here's 50% off. Enjoy!” You can do that. If you're some guru with you know, you have a lot of authority and credibility, then you could do that, you're definitely gonna get sales. 

But, you know, you want to make your emails fun to read, and something kind of emotionally compelling and, you know, you don't want to waste people's time. So there are like a bunch of formulas that copywriters use. And because I write, I write emails and everything I write is no less than 500 words.

I can easily use any formula but I mean, I think any copywriting newbie can probably tell you about AIDA, which is AIDA, which is attention, interest, desire and action. 

So essentially you lead the way, you start off an email is you do what you create, like an attention grabbing first line, a hook, you know, and I work a whole lot in direct response. And I think a lot of people now are using this kind of PIG method, it's P-I-G. I'm using a lot of acronyms. So sorry, whoever's listening, but it's called Punch In the Gut method to where, like, the first line of the email should just, like just make you feel like, really happy or just like, make you feel horrible. 

But then you go into the email of, you know, creating a certain type of interest. You know, whatever your product is, you know, what is the benefit, what is the feature that you're trying to sell. And then the desire part, you know, which is you really ramp up that the, the need for that, that's when this like this, the whole persuasion element comes in the copy, use the urgency or you use, you paint the picture, become very descriptive, and make them really like, feel it. 

And then the last part, of course, of course, is the action. So if that's the call to action, telling them to click here, go here, download this, buy this. And once you do that, you know, 1000 times like I have more than 1000 times and with certain products, and certain niches, you will automatically know. 

So, for example, I have one client who is in the dating niche. And I've written for a good handful of dating coaches who are really big on YouTube. Every dating offer has, like a certain unique mechanism to it as a certain kind of new big idea. But at the end of the day, it's all about, you know, for a lot of guys, it's just like attracting women. It's like I can I know how to use Ada for that. And you know, there's another...

Omar  

I was speaking to somebody about that really quick. I was speaking to somebody about this, like two days ago, I was like dating coaches have the most evergreen niche there is because men are always gonna want to get laid. 

So no matter no matter what you do, no matter what year it is, they're the copy. I'm sure it can be quite similar throughout the years, right? Because that desire never goes away in men. Whereas other things might be fads or, but the desire for that. 

And then also, like, quoting Russell Brunson here, I guess the desire to make money, the desire for any sort of relationships, and then the desire for health, right? Those three things never go away.

Francis Nayan  

Oh, yeah. And those are like the biggest niches right there. So like, make money online dating, and like health supplements and things like that. I think if you ever want to know, like, if you want to see something like AIDA, in long form, then just look up like a long form, like sales that are like something in the health space and look up, like, I don't know, erectile dysfunction, or like beauty or something, because some of those things are absolutely crazy, but they're powerful. And they're really good examples of good copy.

Omar  

Right. Do you have any recommendations for books? And also, do you keep swipe files for yourself? Like, I'm sure you're constantly learning and growing as a copywriter. So something that I used to do, funny enough, was whenever I scroll down, and I purposely fall into funnels, just to see what their copies look like. 

I just take screenshots of the funnels and I have like a whole folder on my phone where it's just good copy, good copy, good copy something I've liked doing. But do you have it? Do you do something like that? Or do you have any recommendations for books where you learn copy from? 

Francis Nayan

Oh, yeah, for sure. For sure. I mean, I had like my own swipe email where I just similar to you, I just go into different stores, different businesses and see what kind of what their emails look like? And yeah, keep them if I'm like, oh, wow, that was actually a really good story. I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm literally going to steal that. 

Omar

Right.

Francis Nayan

And yeah, I mean, a lot of the copywriting groups on man, especially these high level, it can copy masterminds and stuff they, everyone's sharing swipes of like, you know, I've seen crazy Google drives with like, a bunch of folders of just swipes in different niches. 

And I just like reading those, you know, they... some of them really good ideas and they get me out of like my funk sometimes because, you know, I might have a formula but sometimes if you if your brain stays too formulaic, then we lose creativity. So I use those to look at 

But yeah, I mean, in regards to books, and I'm trying to think of like some of the classics that I really enjoyed. Hypnotic Writing by Joe Vitale. I think that was a really good one. 

Omar

A lot of people keep falling back on that one every time I speak to a copywriter. 

Francis Nayan  

Yeah, it's weird because I don't think it's like, I don't even know why but maybe copywriters don't say that to each other. I'm not.. I haven't met one guy who's like, Oh, yeah, that looks like awesome. So I used to think I really thought that was my thing. 

But Cashvertising, forgot the name of the author, but think Cashvertising, that was huge. That was like one of the quote unquote, modern classics that a lot of copywriters love going to. But then there's The Boron Letters by Gary Halbert, Copywriting Handbook by Joe Sugarman. Those are some of the classics that I always recommend to people right there.

Omar  

There was one more that I remember my friend Luke telling me on the podcast. It was like the six second sales letter or something along those lines, I forget the exact name of it, I'll have to reference it back. And when I do, I'll send it to you. But it's a really short book. 

And apparently, it's the guy who wrote the book sold, I think, like $5 million worth of stuff with just six lines, or six lines, or six words is one of those. Maybe it was six words a bit more profound there. But there's a really interesting book that he gave to me that I'll share with you later on after we get off on that. 

So we've covered what makes a good email. And now how are you currently getting clients, right? So no matter what agency, what freelancer type you are, no matter what sort of business you're doing, if you're doing anything outside of Fiverr and Upwork, or in some of these freelancing platforms, you're always looking for ways to scale it. 

Sometimes it's outreach, sometimes it's paid ads, sometimes it's social media, you know, sometimes it's different methods of client attraction, which never really changed. But what's your method here? And how are you scaling that? 

Francis Nayan  

Yeah, so I get a lot of my clients through my network. So as I mentioned earlier, I mean, like, these kind of high level, quote, unquote, high level, I think the word high level, she's, I think it's overused. So that's when I put the quotes around it. But then, you know, the masterminds and you know, a lot of these are $1000 to $2,000 a month just to be and a lot of them have business owners in it. 

And so me being the only copywriter or the only email marketing guy in there, a lot of people either come to me for work, or they refer people to me. And so just in his group, you know, I am, like, I'm the known guy, or, you know, even in like these kind of online marketing masterminds that I'm in, it's a, there's just a lot of like, business owners in there. 

You know, there might be a lot of other copywriters, but then at that point, is a whole lot of networking and really getting to know people. But then, you know, to do that, you also have to have a good profile. 

So I'm not like a big social media guy, I actually hired a LinkedIn, like, my LinkedIn manager for myself, and I rarely post on Facebook anymore and my Instagram is just travel photos. And I've got to get better at that. 

But on LinkedIn, recently, I've been getting people contacting me, because, yeah, we have a really great social media manager there. So I think those are the two ways that we're getting clients right now.

Omar  

It's super interesting that you're saying you get a lot of your clients from masterminds. And that's what I started to realize, like one of the biggest benefits of joining these course masterminds, or group calls or anything in that category isn't the actual learning material, but rather it's the network and the group that you get from it, right? 

And I'll tend to join personally, myself, anyone, any one of those types of mastermind groups, or like any sort of community that's been built around a specific educational subjects and online business, just for the community if it's big enough, right? 

So like, there's ones that I turned out that maybe have, like 50 people in their Facebook group, but there's ones that I've joined, that maybe have like, 2000, right, and just really, really high ROI fighting for finding clients. What else do you do for client acquisition?

Francis Nayan  

Yeah, occasionally, actually. So one of my favorite things to do is, remember, run last six, seven months, I've been trying to find businesses that I'm like, really passionate about. And so a lot of that has to do with like, anti-addiction, or some type of like, personal development and things like that. 

And so I actually just like, I do a lot of cold pitching, which I know that a lot of people are like, cold pitching is like scammy. 

But there's a really ethical way of doing it that makes you know, as long as you actually care, and there's just something that we kind of talked about earlier, and you make it easy for them to contact you, then it can be really seamless. You don't have to spend all day doing it. And yeah, I -

Omar  

I'm a big proponent of cold pitching on this podcast. We talk a lot about cold email and LinkedIn automation here. They’re two really slept on but really massive ways of getting clients and especially when you're first starting out, right? 

I think if at business at any stage, if they're just starting off and have a limited budget should definitely start with cold pitching, whether it's through Instagram, DMS, email, LinkedIn automation, and then work their way to paid ads, so they can automate some stuff but never stop the cold pitching, you know? 

And what I was thinking is like, Damn, you're an email marketer, you probably kill it a cold email, right? You do it in a way that probably makes them laugh and wants to do business with you or just just appreciate what you do, right? 

Like it's spammy when you're not personalizing anything and you're sending out 1000 or 10,000 emails a day. There's, that's completely unethical. And even if you do take ethics out of it, it's just never works. You know, like, no one's gonna read a spam email. This is 2021. 

It's more about... And you probably have the skill set, which is good to have to be able to do a good cold pitch, you know? So that's something I really do like talking about on this podcast. 

What do you think, just for all my listeners here, so we can give them a slight edge on the cold pitching themselves? What do you think makes a good cold pitch to a potential client?

Francis Nayan  

Yeah, I think it definitely make it personalized, and actually do your research. And to flatter them in the beginning. So you know, don't just say, “Hey, you know, this is what I do. I can sell your stuff, I think I can really help you, here's everything you're doing wrong.” 

I think it's actually show that you took some time to, like, get to know them, to see if they have a story, to mention that. And yeah, just to show that you actually have effort. And, you know, I've mentioned this to people before, we're beginning freelance copywriters, and they're like, oh, but it takes me an hour, an hour and a half, two hours to write this. 

I'm like, well, it's gonna be a lot more impactful than, you know, writing 10 really templated ones, because this one's gonna pack more of a punch. But then also, just making it easy to contact you and kind of, like, lower the number of like, back and forth, you know?

I mean, one of the things I do is just kind of, you know, send them my CV and be like, if you're interested in talking, you know, reply back, I can send you my link, and you know, you can get to know me better, you can see that I'm an actual person. And that's worked out a whole lot. It's just, it's quality more than quantity. I think with cold pitch. I think that’s two tips. 

Omar  

Definitely, definitely, interestingly enough, like back in 2000s, like early 2000s, that used to be quantity over quality, because no one had ever seen email. And the email open rates are like 97% or something. 

These days is the opposite, you know, which is a good thing. You know, it just means people are becoming more aware of what works and what doesn't. 

So now, I want to turn the conversation towards travel here for a minute. You're currently in Budapest, how long have you been traveling for now?

Francis Nayan  

Well, yeah, for well, about five or six years now. I've been in Europe, like pretty much this whole time residency in Budapest and prior inSpain and I use that to kind of freely go around Europe as much as I can.

Omar  

How old are you right now? 

Francis Nayan

I'm 29.

Omar

29. Okay. And you left home probably what, 24? 

Francis Nayan

I was 23. I was 23. Yeah. 

Omar

Yeah. So do you have a favorite place that you've been to yet?

Francis Nayan  

Yeah, my favorite place I've ever been to. I think my second favorite place is definitely Budapest. I think there's a reason why I just ended up staying here. 

But I think I think Portugal. I think it's definitely hot on the list, which is why I'm speaking to your former guests about moving over there. So that's likely, man. I mean, I lived in Spain previously, and I think there's, I was in Barcelona, and I think I was just young and dumb, too overwhelmed. 

And I think I think maybe I go back and probably enjoy it too. But I think Portugal for sure is like definitely, definitely a good vibe.

Omar  

Big digital nomad community there, huh?

Francis Nayan  

Yeah, yeah, I think every place that just mentioned right now I know. And I just watched like a video earlier. There's apparently a lot of expats and digital nomads in Portugal, which is exciting.

Omar  

Right, that's good. So you're gonna continue traveling for a while? Is this lifestyle for you?

Francis Nayan  

Yeah, this is the lifestyle for me for sure. I mean, I remember when I first started working online, and well, you know, I think within the last year or so I really scaled the whole lot, was able to, you know, maybe have an agency or have my own offer and things like that, I kind of had to, like, take a step back and think about why I even did this in the first place. 

And, you know, back in 2017, all I really wants to do is have money in travel. You know, that was my why. And so, and my why kind of hasn't stopped. I mean, right now really only seen Europe. I mean, I've been in 25 countries, like all around Central America and in Europe. 

But you know, I'm only 29 haven't been to Asia yet. So I want to go out there. And that's going to be the next big thing. 

Omar

It's interesting to see that you're in that transition of trying to, or possibly thinking about what your future why is going to be. Because I think a lot of people get into this lifestyle just wanting to travel and, and make money online, right? 

And then later on down the road when they achieve that. They're like, okay, what's next? Or rather, I'm just gonna keep seeing countries and then figure out my wayhalong the way, but honestly, I'll tell you this. It's a hell of a lot better figuring it out on the road than it is stuck at home trying to figure out what your why is right? 

Francis Nayan

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It's a hell of a journey, man. It's been awesome. 

Omar

That's good to hear. If you had to tell my audience like One reason to actually live the digital nomad lifestyle, what would it be?

Francis Nayan  

Every day's an adventure every day is always exciting. You know, it's, you take it in, there's a lot of beauty taking it one day at a time. And when you're a digital nomad and you're traveling, it's exciting for different reasons, which makes it even more exciting. 

You know, it can be exciting because you're about to see a beach you've never seen, or maybe you're going to a village where no one speaks English and get to kind of, you know, manage it yourself, which is really exciting. 

But you're going to come out with so many experiences, and so many stories that are incredibly unique to you. And I think at the end of the day, when you're 60, 70, 80 years old, you're going to look back, yeah, you're going to be really happy to see where you’ve gone, so...

Omar  

It's a beautiful way to put it man. Chase the adventure and when you're old enough, you're gonna look back and be like, ‘Damn, I did all this.’ Instead of the flashy things that you could have. 

I mean, constantly, we're making choices between do I want to travel and chase adventure or going to stay home and do stability and flash some stuff. And I think it takes a certain temperament to pick one or the other. Right. 

So it's always interesting talking to other true digital nomads that have been around for a while. But I'd like to close this podcast off with one final question here, right? I don't know, if you listen to David's podcast all the way through, but I have the standard question that I asked every single episode, right? 

And the question is, if you had a billboard in space, and you could write whatever you wanted on that billboard, and every time the sun rose, everyone on planet Earth could see that Billboard and every time the sunset, that billboard went away, what would you write on it?

Francis Nayan  

I would say just do it for yourself. You know, I think I think it's a really powerful thing that I keep telling myself more than anything is, you know, as an entrepreneur, as a freelancer, as a digital nomad, and just being a young, dumb person, I think we get mixed up. 

And, you know, the stuff that we consume, and what people tell us at the end of the day, to live, you know, doing things that we like to do, and yeah, whatever you do, just do it for yourself.

Omar  

I like it. Well, what do you feel I get to keep telling yourself that, what is it exactly about it?

Francis Nayan  

I think it's just because there's so much so much stuff is just going on, you know, I mean, you go on Reddit, there's like different opinions. You go on social media, everything is kind of like telling you how you should be. 

And then I think at the end of the day, it's kind of like, as I mentioned before, you got to take a step back and ask yourself, you know, is, are you doing this for yourself? If it's a “hell yes”, then it's awesome. If it’s a  “hell no”, there's really only two answers to hell yes, or hell no.

Omar  

Where have I heard that before? That's a really good quote. That - I love that quote.

Francis Nayan  

Yeah, I think I have no idea. I think I might have just stolen it from like, I thought I thought I made it up just right. I think I'm super lame. I think it's, I think it's a book actually, I

Omar  

Think it's somewhere I forget where it was, but it was a really, really good quote. I've always loved it the first time I heard it. It's good that you bring it up there because it works perfectly with what you put on the Billboard. Everyone should keep that in mind. 

It’s hell yes versus hell no. If it's not a hell yes then it's a hell no. 

Francis Nayan

Yeah, exactly. Love that. 

Omar

Great. Well, thank you so much for coming on today, Francis. 

Francis Nayan

Yeah, thank you. 

Omar

It's a pleasure having you on.