Living Locationally - Independent, Stories of Wonder and Adventure From Around the Globe With Matt Bowles | TNE082

For the eighty-second episode of The Nomadic Executive, I am joined by an extraordinary guest, Matt Bowles, who embodies what it truly means to be a truly locationally-independent digital nomad. Matt Bowles is the host of podcast The Maverick Show. He is also the founder of The Maverick Group, a real estate investing business that’s never had a physical office ever. Matt’s journey to becoming a locationally-independent entrepreneur started when he got fired from his job. Now, he lives and works wherever and whenever he wants.

In this episode, Matt not only talks about his awesome journey to becoming a locationally independent digital nomad and the places he’s been so far. He also touches upon the things you need to do in order to figure out the qualities you and your business partners should have in order to build a successful, long term business relationship. Furthermore,  Matt lays out the truth about how tying one’s business to one place can set it up for failure in the future. Finally, Matt shares what it was like to be a part of Remote Year and how that experience truly changed his life and how he travels.

Timestamps:

[2:55]The unfortunate event that kickstarted Matt’s digital nomad journey

[4:37]This is how Matt started a business event though he had no business background

[42:46]The value you will get with remote travel groups 

[47:07]Is there such a thing as “authentic travel”? 

[55:08] Where else does Matt want to go?

[01:01]This is true location independence

Matt's Links:

Check out Matt Bowles’ podcast: https://www.themaverickshow.com/

Learn more about real estate investing: https://www.maverickinvestorgroup.com/

Omar's (Host) Social Media:

Instagram - @nomadables

TikTok - @nomadables

Facebook Group - NOMADABLES - Accountability & Growth Community for Remote Workers- Perfect to meet fellow online entrepreneurs, remote workers, and digital nomads.

YouTube - Omar Mo

LinkedIn - Omar Mo Nomads Cast

Twitter - @nomadables

Pintrest - @nomadables

Clubhouse - @pods

WEBSITE: https://www.nomadables.com/

Transcript

The Nomadic Executive Episode 82 : Living Locationally - Independent, Stories of Wonder and Adventure From Around The Globe With Matt Bowles

Omar  

It's always been really awesome for me to come back to my roots on this podcast. Over the last two years this podcast has really evolved in all sorts of different content styles, from travel to business, to lifestyle and being an adult in this post pandemic world. Over the last few months, however, I've slowly been pivoting back to a majority of digital nomad content because it really reminds me of why I started this journey in the first place. 

For anyone that's been here long enough, perhaps even from the beginning, you've sat with me through a journey, whether you know it or not. I started The Nomadic Executive actually originally called The Nomadic Spirit for the first 20 episodes or so, at a time after I'd came back from traveling for three years in the south eastern parts of the globe. 

I was not fully locationally independent at that time, but I traveled for quite some time already. Nearly two years later here sitting right now we're recording this intro. I have a fully locationally independent business and with high hopes for the future as the world opens back up. 

Today's guest helped bring me back to the reason of why I do this in the first place. A true Nomad in all aspects of the word. We're joined by Matt Bowles. Matt is the host of The Maverick Show. 

And a man who's really lived a life of wonder and adventure, a DJ who left music and turn into the real estate industry. Matt travels the world as a fully locationally independent digital nomad. Join us while we dive into his stories of business and travel, and his thoughts of this lifestyle that gets more popular day by day.

Intro

You're listening to The Nomadic Executive hosted by Omar from nomadables.com. Join Omar as he sits down and speaks with leading online entrepreneurs, remote workers and digital nomads about everything from business strategy to travel and lifestyle design. Together, we're here to help you achieve a life of happiness, health and freedom. And now here's your host, Omar Mo.

Omar

All right, Matthew. Welcome to the nomadic executive, man. One of the coolest nomads. I've definitely met, man. Happy to have you on, how you doing? 

Matt Bowles

So good to be here, brother. Thanks for having me. 

Omar

Absolutely, man. Absolutely. So let's start back on this timeline thing that I just absolutely love doing, especially with all my Nomad guests because they have such unique timelines, I'd like to think. Start me off, man. How long have you been a nomad? Remind me again.

Matt Bowles  

So I'll make two distinctions here and I'll give you two timelines. So 2007, I got unexpectedly fired from my office job. And I decided that I was going to start my own business, and I was going to build it with a location independent infrastructure. So I have been a location independent entrepreneur since 2007. 

However, I chose to live my first six years of location independence in Los Angeles, for no business purpose. I just loved la was in a relationship there at the time, you know, etc. So I chose to be in LA. 

And then in 2013, that is the year that I became a full time itinerant digital nomad, with no base. Got rid of my place, get rid of my car, downsized my life. And I have been traveling the world with no bass ever since 2013. And I have lived in 65 different countries since then.

Omar  

Insane. So to give my audience some context, and some value here, when you first started your business, you mentioned that I was locationally independent from day one. And a lot of people, especially when they're first starting out in the digital space, or the remote working space, even in today's time, they're not fully locationally independent right away. Maybe they're Bali ready, or Vietnam ready, or places like that with freelancing clients, and so on and so forth. 

It seems to be out like maybe 70% of people do it. And you did that you started this business in 2007, when the online infrastructure wasn't nearly what it is now, like. So what exactly was that business model? And what got you to jump into that business model particularly?

Matt Bowles  

Yeah, so first of all, I should say that my entire academic background and all of my professional work experience up until the age of 30 has absolutely nothing at all to do with what I'm doing today. So we should start with that. Okay, 2007, I turned 30. Got fired from my job, major life pivot. Okay. 

Prior to that, all right, my, my bachelor's degree is in sociology, my mat, my master's degree is international peace and conflict resolution. And I worked in the nonprofit advocacy space, my entire professional career doing work around civil liberties issues, human rights issues, all this kind of stuff, okay? 

So then I had, you know, we had a change in management, I changed jobs went to another organization, all of a sudden, one day I walk in, it's not working out, you know, sorry, and I got let go. Alright. So, at that moment, I'm thinking to myself, okay, I got some serious decisions to make here, right? 

And on that day, I can remember very distinctly thinking to myself, Okay, you know what, I'm not going to apply for another job, I'm not going to work for somebody else. I'm going to figure out how to do my own thing, right? There's only one problem. I had no idea how to start a business, right? 

So I literally just drove to the bookstore that day, and started reading books on how to start a business. Okay. And that was 2007. And so what I did is I drove to the bookstore every day in Los Angeles, and I just sat there reading books in the business section. Each day, I would go in, I would look on the table at the new business books that had just come out, right. 

So one day I walk in to brand new book on the table called The Four Hour Workweek by Timothy Ferriss. Picked it up. And I was just like, Whoa, right? Dude was 29 years old when he published it, right? So I was just, I just started looking through it, I read the book, the day it came out, I said, that is what I'm doing right? 

And then the business that I chose to start is called Maverick investor group still running it today. It is a real estate brokerage that helps people buy cash flowing rental properties in the United States, from anywhere in the world, okay? 

And I, what I had done is since I was working in the nonprofit space, right? I had decided that, okay, I'm not going to make a whole lot of money in my job for my income so I should figure out how to start investing. And so what I did is I bought a house to live in and it had four bedrooms, I rented out three of the bedrooms, to friends of mine, and all of a sudden, the first year my house had gone up more in the first year in appreciation that I made it my entire job working full time and for a year. 

Omar

Damn.

Matt Bowles

I was like, that's crazy, right? So then I started buying other rental properties in other markets. And then friends started coming to me like ‘Dude, how are you doing that man? Like, can you help me buy those random rental properties like that?”  was like, sure, let me show what I’m doing, you know? 

So what I was doing was helping my friends buy rental properties. And I was noticing that the real estate brokers, they were helping us to buy these rental properties. They were making money. You know, they're making commissions and stuff on all the properties that I bought, that my friends bought, but we weren't paying them. Right? Because in the United States, the seller pays all of the real estate broker commissions and fees. Okay, so the buyers pay none. 

And so I was like, well, that's cool. They're providing value. They're helping me buy real estate, I'm not paying them anything like that's cool if they get compensated somehow, as long as I'm not paying it. Right? So what I realized that - I  understood the real estate brokerage model, okay, like, keep in mind, I have no business background at this point in my life, right. But I understood that model. 

And I understood that my friends were coming to me, to help them to buy rental properties, right? So I realized that all I would have to do is would be to get a real estate brokerage license start a  real estate brokerage business, and then I could continue helping my friends buy their rental properties. But now I could make money doing it. But I wouldn't have to charge my friends anything. 

Omar

Interesting. 

Matt Bowles

I was like, man, that is the perfect business model. I literally don't have to charge anybody any money for anything. And I get to help them do what I'm doing. And now all of a sudden they get paid for it. That's crazy. So that was like lightbulb. That's what I want to do. 

Then I read the Tim Ferriss book. And I was like, okay, that book put the light bulb, location independence, right? Most people when they build a business plan, they're just doing it as a financial plan. I want the business to make me money. Here's what we're going to do for this. And that the other thing to try to make a profitable business, but what they do in the process, is they create geographic restrictions on themselves, right? 

They tie themselves to one place. They're actually limiting their freedom. So even if in the very best case scenario, their business is successful, which most aren't, you know, there's I don't know what the statistic is now. 80%, or 90% of small businesses fail in the first five years. 

Omar

Right. 

Matt Bowles

Whatever that statistic is, certainly most of them, right? But even if they succeed, that small number that succeed, they're succeeding financially, right? That's what they're doing. But usually, most business owners are putting all sorts of geographic restrictions on themselves. They're restricting their time, they're restricting their location, they have to be in an office, they have to be there from these hours. They have to do all this kind of stuff. 

So when I read the Tim Ferriss book, I said, Okay, we want to build a business plan, that is going to give us location independence, total freedom of mobility, we can run the business from anywhere we want, travel wherever you want. And it's going to also give us more control over our time, right, and we're going to be able to structure you know, reasonably asymmetric work hours…

Omar

Who’s we?

Matt Bowles

So, I have two business partners, because when I was learning how to start a business, and I was reading his books, I was like, man, I don't have all the skills to start a business like I can't, you know, I don't have all these skills that it takes. 

But I know people who do, right, I knew other people that had complementary skills to mine. So I reached out to two people that had the premium sort of complementary set of skills that I didn't have. And the three of us came together and started Maverick Investor Group in 2007.

Omar  

I think this can bring some value here to my audience here for a second before you move forward. So there are definitely people I've spoken to even in the past two weeks, even, that I noticed in my podcast, and are having a tough time finding somebody else who would start a business with them especially off of just like, Hey, I have an idea. And I think we could take this off the ground quite easily. So what kind of tips do you have when it comes to that?

Matt Bowles  

That's a great question. And I will be honest with you, selecting the right business partners is one of the hardest parts of business. And it's the part that people mess up on the most that can cost them enormously, right? So business partner selection is a huge, huge thing. I'll tell you what I did, okay?

My one business partner, Valerie, she did her graduate program with me. Okay, we did a master's degree together, right? So we both and then we both worked in the nonprofit advocacy space, right? 

So she and I were doing all sorts of international activist work together, we were taking international observer delegations to conflict regions in the north of Ireland and doing human rights advocacy work around Palestine, and in many cases, you know, going out and, you know, we were in, you know, situations where we're in, you know, demonstrations with, you know, police, you know, I mean, all kinds of very high intensity situations. 

And so, you know, she and I trusted each other incredibly well, we really understood each other's skill sets very specifically because we had worked together before, we had stress tested the relationship right. And we were basically the best of friends, right? In addition to respecting each other's skills and having that work experience together. 

So, the first thing is, it is, you know, I would recommend trying to find somebody that you have a history with, and you have a connection with and you've already evaluated that person on a number of levels, right? Not just reaching out to a random person, say, want to do this with me, right? But thinking about who you know, and you've evaluated now. 

Then, Valerie and I both came out of the nonprofit space, right. So we had both been, you know, investing in real estate, but in order to start a brokerage, you have to have a managing broker. And in order to have a managing broker, and thus to have a brokerage company, you're not qualified to become a managing broker until you have two full years of work experience as an active real estate agent.

Omar  

What exactly is a managing broker?

Matt Bowles  

So if you own a real estate brokerage, in order to have one, you need to have a broker of record, right? A person who is going to be the managing broker of that business, in compliance with the real estate laws, in order to get the qualified to become a managing broker, or broker of record. You have to have a minimum of two years real estate agent experience under your belt before you're even qualified to take the broker test. 

So Valerie, and I would have had to work as agents for two years before we would be eligible to start a real estate brokerage. Right. So I was like, Okay, let's, you know, we need another business partner with real estate experience, right, who's had more than two years experience that could come in as the broker and also give us a little bit of, you know, credibility in the real estate space, who actually has a real estate brokerage track record, right?

And so, one of the guys that had sold me rental properties, who was one of the best salespeople I had ever worked with, was totally impressed that he and I became friends through that process. But again, I had evaluated his professional skills, I was the customer, he was the one selling me to real estate. So I was able to evaluate him from that perspective, I said, I know a guy. And this is the guy. 

And so I was able to go out and based on the relationship that I had with him, I was able to explain, you know, put the vision and the model in front of them. And, you know, we were able to, I was able to get both of them to leave their jobs, and come start the business with me, largely,\which I think is still my best, you know, sales success of my life to this day, right? 

Is that I was able to get two business partners to leave their jobs and come start a business with me, which was amazing. But you know, it's worked. We're still together. It's been 14 years now. And yeah, man, still going strong.

Omar  

That's absolutely amazing, man, you see that every day? I think it's like, a very timing key moment, right? You already had you already knew right off the top of your mind that that one person, you've dealt with stress, you know, they could deal with pressure, you've seen all that happen, you know, that make a great business partner, and the other person just came at the right time when they were selling you a property? 

So yeah, I mean, I, I think that's honestly one of the best ways, right? It's just making it organic, find somebody that's in your peripheral. And don't let friendship come in the way is a big thing that I hear, right? Because that can definitely test any sort of business partnership that you have.

Matt Bowles  

Well, and don't, you know, don't pick somebody just because they're a friend, right? Like, in the case of Valerie, it worked out well, because I knew her skills, and I knew that she was really good at all the stuff that I am not good at, and vice versa, right. So, you know, if I had just said, Oh, like, this is my college buddy, you know, like, we get along good. Like we could get some, you know, it'd be fun to do a business together. Like that is not the right reason to pick somebody, right? 

Valerie, though, was both a friend who I trusted. But she was someone who had all the complimentary skills, you know, to me, so that I think is really important. So when people you know, are thinking about business partnerships, really what you want to do, and this is what I did in the beginning, right? Is I audited my skills, like, I'm literally looking like, Okay, if we're gonna build a business, like, we got to do this, this, this, this, and this, I can do these things. And I could do really well. But these things, I'm not good at those. Right? Right. Or I don't like doing those or whatever. 

But I know people who are so, really audit yourself, do a really honest self audit, and identify what are you good at? And what are you passionate about doing? What are you willing to work really, really hard doing? And put in those extra hours and really deliver at a high level and then you want to find somebody that has complimentary skills to you, right? Somebody that's not good at the exact same things you are good at. It's good to totally the other things, right? 

So I do a lot more of kind of the sales and marketing and, you know, public side of things, no podcast interviews, like this kind of stuff for the business. And Valerie just runs the entire operational side of the business and she crushes that, you know, she's amazing at that. So we really understand who does what stay in our lanes and we work complementarity. 

You know, we're both sort of executive leadership. So we come together on the overall vision, but then we, you know, really are able to break out and sort of manage our departments, you know, that way.

Omar  

 Makes sense. I mean, you guys have put some pretty specific and great complementary roles with each other that really bring the team together. And I'm surprised that you guys have stuck together for 14 years as well, because not a lot of good, even business partners do that one always ends up buying the other one out, right. So that's really good to hear. 

But with the beginning of the business, did you have some sort of cash flow coming in? Because I know you have left your job, you add them to leave their jobs? Like, what was the initial starting amount was a startup cost? Like how'd that go?

Matt Bowles  

Yeah, so I mean, we had, you know, we all had some savings. And then like, I negotiated like a severance from my job. So I had a number of months of salaries that were gonna be paid to me and like, all that kind of stuff. And basically what we did, you know, and then my business partner, Mark, who is our corporate broker, you know, he already had all he was in the middle of selling real estate anyways, right? 

So he already had clients, he had this kind of stuff, and he was able to just kind of bring that, so we were able to just form it into the company, and then just start selling properties. Right. So one of the things that we did is that we had unbelievably low overhead on purpose. 

Okay, so when you were a remote business, if you do your infrastructure correctly, and virtually, your overhead should be extremely low, extremely low. 

Omar

Right, right. So we, so we just needed to find the, you know, the property providers, you know, for the properties that we were going to sell, and then just find the buyers and then bring them together. And then they you know, and then they buy and then we make real estate brokerage referral fees, they're called, because they're out of state off of that, right, so we don't have a cost of goods where we have to pay to produce a product and store it in a warehouse and all that kind of stuff, right? We are a real estate brokerage. 

So we provide, you know, people access to cash flowing rental properties, right. So basically what our product is our cash flowing rental property. So these are properties that are in some of the most investor-advantaged US real estate markets. These are markets where home prices are relatively low, rents are relatively high, you can cash flow, there also have strong economic indicators, people are moving in jobs are being created, it's putting upward pressure on rents upward pressure on housing prices, right? It's basically where you want to own rental property.

In these types of markets, which change over time, by the way, right. In these types of markets, what we do is we provide our clients the ability to buy turnkey rental property. So this is our value proposition. Okay? Turnkey rental properties. What we mean by that is, this is either a brand new construction, single family home, or it is a fully renovated single family home, sometimes two to four unit properties, right, but all residential stuff. And it has tenants already in place paying rent on a long term lease, and it has a local professional property management company in place, collecting the rent, handling, the maintenance, all of that. 

So our clients are buying the house, they actually own the deeded real estate, they own the house, they get all the benefits from that tax benefits and everything else. But they're not the ones that have to be the rehabber or the landlord, right? 

They're not doing the super high risk, high headache aspects of the real estate stuff, right? So that's really where the value proposition is. We help people buy turnkey properties, we help them buy them in the best markets, and they can buy them and own them from anywhere without having to live near the property or to manage the property directly.

Omar  

So once the property is bought, and all that's taken care of, do you guys get a continuous cut of the revenue that's coming in? Or is it like a one time payment type revenue model?

Matt Bowles  

So for our revenue model, now what we do is we Okay, so here's how it would work, right? Like, let's say you came to us and you were interested in buying rental properties. Okay. The first thing is that we're not a transactional brokerage, like a normal real estate brokerage people think about it, you know, when they're gonna buy a house to live in, right? 

They find a real estate agent, they drive them around, they're like, Okay, this is the house I want, they buy it to live in. And then that's it. Because they found their one, they're looking for one house to live in, they found it and they're done. Right? 

For us, we are not a transaction brokerage like that, because we deal exclusively with real estate investors, right. And what we do with every client that comes in the door, is we want to build a long term business relationship with every single client and to help them build a portfolio of rental properties over time, and across markets, you know, to based on their real estate investing goals, okay? 

So when you would come in to us, we would say, Okay, let's talk about your goals. Let's talk about where you are right now. You know, where you want to be, how are we gonna help you get there, and then we're going to help you buy a rental property in the market and the price point that is the best for you personally, right? And that'll be your first one and then we're gonna say, okay, you know, based on your financial situation, um, we got clients that are, you know, just made a whole bunch of money in Bitcoin and they want... They're transferring out of cryptocurrency into real estate. And they're doing all this. 

So we just assess like, Where are you right now financially? In terms of your real estate stuff? What are your goals? And you know, how many properties do you want to buy per year? Some clients buy one property a year, I have a client that's gonna buy 10 properties this year, right? Because there's somebody that's just been saving up all their money, their whole career in like a mutual fund, and they're like, dude, like, why am I doing that I want to put it into real estate. So they're, they're gonna put it all into real estate, you know, they're gonna buy like, 10 properties this year, right. 

And so, you know, it all just depends on where the person is right now. But we have long term relationships with the client. So once you're closed on one property, we make a referral fee paid entirely by the seller, buyer pays nothing to us right? On the closing. And then the next thing that we would make is just another fee, if you buy another property, or you refer someone else to buy a property, but with every client that comes in our door, it's all about the repeat business in the portfolio building model.

Omar  

What kind of retention rates do you see with something like that?

Matt Bowles  

Oh, we have probably, I mean, I want to say like 80, over 80% of our clients will buy a second property, within six months of buying their first property, I would say so most of our clients are buying at least two if not three properties a year, on average,

Omar  

That's good. I think that's a solid business model, instead of focusing on some sort of recurring revenue, you're getting it on from a long term relationship with the person that you're, that you're helping out, essentially. And I think that's where the merit of working specifically with real estate investors comes into play instead of working with someone that's doing a one off thing, right? 

So that's a great business model. I wanted to turn it to the remote infrastructure here for a minute, right? Talk about like how you build that up? And even maybe dive into a little bit of how you maintain it. Like what software's and without getting too technical or anything like that. But just on a surface level of how you built that infrastructure?

Matt Bowles  

Yeah, well, we started off by forcing ourselves to build it. Okay. So one of the things that makes it a lot easier if you if you force yourself to build it, and you don't give yourself another option. So my two business partners, and I all lived in different states in the US, since the founding of our company, we literally never lived in the same city. 

So if we wanted to have a meeting in person, we would fly into the same city, right? I mean, that's the only way to do it, which we would do sometimes, which was fun, right at the business expense, we’d like, meet out  in Las Vegas and like, go for a week and just do a big kind of like strategy session or something and do fun things around it, which is fun to do. But we did not allow ourselves to do anything other than operate entirely virtual. So we forced it. 

And that is what I would recommend to people because some people make geographically restrictive mistakes early on, like, ‘Look, oh, let's get an office now. And then once it's up and running, then we'll turn it remote, don't fall into that trap, and don't fall into that trap. That that's a dangerous slope.’ 

So, so we forced it and we always would just say, how do we do this? Right? I mean, literally, like back in ‘07 I mean, there was still, you know, people were still using fax machines. We were services like e-fax, you know?

Omar  

Yeah, yeah, there was no Skype of Zoom, right?

Matt Bowles  

Yeah, we're like, This is crazy. You fax something just through your computer, we don't need a fax machine, like, wow, how innovative and advanced that is. Right? Like, and so the technology, I mean, it just, it just goes, you know, you know, every year just through the roof, right in terms of how advanced stuff gets. 

But what you need to do is just look at it, you know, and just say, Okay, how do we do this on location independent infrastructure? What do we need, right? So now you have all kinds of advanced stuff. So we use all the main platforms, I mean, project management, we use Trello, we use for our CRM…

Omar  

Before you go into what you're using now. I'm curious, what were you using in 2000... I think it was seven when you started this. So what were you using back then? I mean, were you faxing each other, were you sending SOS signals?

Matt Bowles  

I mean, like, really? Google Docs, we can do a shared we can do a shared Google Doc. That's crazy. Like, wow, how innovative right? 

Omar

Yeah. 

Matt Bowles

Yeah, man. I mean, we just, we just use whatever, you know, whatever the technology was, we could share documents with each other. We could, you know, do. I mean was mostly phone calls. It wasn't even video so much back then, you know, and we just had, you know, and then we just did our email marketing and did our stuff, you know. 

But we, I mean, now we use the CRM we use is called Infusionsoft, the client relations management system, the project management system we use called Trello. We use Slack WhatsApp, you know, the basic, you know, apps for, you know, communication. And, you know, that's how we do, we do video calls on Zoom, you know, and we just, we just rock like that, man. So we're all in different places, you know? And we just, we just keep going.

Omar  

I wanted to give some value to my audience here, from my perspective, also of handling a remote team, right. And maybe you could give me some input here, but I think In this day and age, it's so ridiculously easy with all the tools that we have to create a remote infrastructure that I'm surprised that not everybody does it. 

I mean, like, you can literally bootstrap a business to six figures in months with a team of Filipino VAs, and some a couple communication tools like and maybe a CRM, or like  Go Hgh Level, or maybe even something small, like a board like Trello, something like that, you know, and that's and you could boots and anybody can bootstrap a business, I think creative. 

Someone who's in the media buying anything like that you can bootstrap a business around blog writing, if you wanted to, copywriting. There's someone that I spoke to that I've had on my podcast before, who is absolutely killing it with a bootstrap agency built through Fiverr about copywriting, right? 

So really, like you said, once you build that remote infrastructure, it lowers that overhead so much that your margins are anywhere from 79 to let's say, 60 to 95%. At any given point right now, and I'm guessing your business probably has margins right around that rate, if not higher, but it's I can't see it as margins, you get paid by fee. 

And I'm guessing each customer you have has an LTV for or even like a yearly value. doing that, like what what's your general margins that you're playing with?

Matt Bowles  

That's a good question, man. I mean, it depends how you calculate I mean, one of the things that one of the things that we've done, though, that I will say, I mean, we have some fixed overhead, right, like have to pay a monthly fee every month for Infusionsoft or Trello, or like some services we're talking about, but like the amount of fixed monthly fees that we have is quite minimal, right? 

One of the things that we've done is we've really structured our, you know, compensation for everyone, including the owners and the managers, right down through our sales team down through our contract to close coordinators on a transactional basis. Right? 

So in real estate, that's very common, right? where an agent gets paid when they close a deal. You know, like, that's how that's how it works. They don't close the deal that they're not getting, they're not getting paid, right? 

So for us, we've been able to structure it in a very transactional way. So the more we're closing, the more everybody's getting paid. And the more and if we're not, or there's a slowdown, right, which sometimes happens in the market, right? Like you might have a downswing in your business where you're not. 

And this is one of the things that trips people up as well, right, which I'll actually put out there as, as you know, some tips for your audience who are newer folks getting into this is that you what you don't want to do is say, “Okay, I'm selling this much, you know, this year, so I'm going to create a fixed overhead that goes up to here, you know, and now, if my sales drop off, I'm screwed, because I have committed to a super high overhead, and I have to maintain this sale. And if my sales dip, then I'm, then I'm screwed, right?”

So one of the things that we've done is we've built in a little bit of that latitude by creating a very transactionally based compensation structure, right? The more we close, the more everybody gets paid, the less we close, the less people are getting paid, because they're getting paid on a transactional basis. It also creates a lot of team spirit for everybody wanting to you know, get these deals closed and win and dwell and all that kind of stuff.

Omar  

That's nice, man. Did you ever manage to get the four hour workweek into your routine, then? Do you now work four hours a week? Are you still working more than that?

Matt Bowles  

I don't work four hours a week. I work more than that. But I've used a lot of the principles like I think in that book, there were so many concepts and so many principles that I was able to apply very effectively. So that was one of the most influential books still to this day that I've ever read. For sure.

Omar  

Absolutely. fantastic book. And I know I've spoken about this plenty of times in this podcast. If you're listening to this right now and you haven't picked up a copy. Please do. I should probably do a book giveaway at some point on that one too. 

Matt Bowles  

yeah, it's it's interesting to me, I mean, the number of people that have read it, I remember I was speaking at the, at the Nomad summit in Chiang Mai back in 2018. And I was the opening keynotes, we had probably like 400 people or so in the audience. 

And I was telling sort of my story, and I was telling about the Four Hour Workweek. So how many people have read it? And I mean, I want to say 97% of the hands went up in that room. I mean, it's really if you haven't read it yet, that is a seminal pillar book for the digital nomad lifestyle that really just kicked off a lot of the location independent entrepreneurship.

Omar  

It's created a movement, man, it's not like I've never seen a book do that. So props to Tim Ferriss for doing that. And I just think it's a phenomenal book, but that's awesome, man that's good to hear. It's always really nice to hear a different digital nomad who's, who's older than me and has the same perspective on a book that I think has been absolutely revolutionary in the history of humankind. 

So some massive props there, but let's move forward here. So I kind of want to dive into your travel stories now, riight? So you started, you said you went locationally independent, rather, you started traveling around 2013. What kicked that off for you?

Matt Bowles  

So I was in a relationship in Los Angeles, and I was my relationship partner and I were living together. And she was doing her PhD at UCLA in Egyptian History. And one day, she comes home, and she says, “So I got to go to Cairo for a year to do my dissertation research.” 

I was like, “Cool. I'm location dependent. I'll go to Cairo for a year. Let's do it.” So we got rid of all of our stuff, sold my car, like get rid of all our stuff. And then we're like, “Well, you know, if we're going to Cairo for a year, we get rid of all our stuff. We don't need to stay in LA for the summer, we could just leave three months early, and go somewhere, you know, before we go to Cairo, and live somewhere for three months.” 

So what would be our number one place that we want to go in the world that at that time we pick Buenos Aires, Argentina. So we went to BA for three months? And then we went to Cairo for what ended up being about nine months that we're in Cairo. 

And then after that, we were like, well, we don't need to go back to LA, you've got all your dissertation research with you, you got a year to write this thing, or a year and a half, maybe I can work from remotely. So let's just pull out a world map. Pick the top five places in the world we most want to live and just go rent an Airbnb and each of those places for two months.

Omar

Nice, that’s one way to do it.

Matt Bowles  

So we were like Rio de Janeiro, Cape Town, South Africa, Barcelona, you know, we just went and did it. And, you know, that's what that's what started off man. And then it was off and running.

Omar  

Nice. So what stopped it for…? I remember you mentioning that you and your girlfriend broke up at some point. And that from there, like and you were in a different country at that point, too. So I would figure it would get a little bit tricky when that happened. So tell me a little bit of a story on that.

Matt Bowles  

Like, yeah, so we ended up. So that, so after Egypt. So Cairo was amazing, right? And we that was able, I was able to travel to a bunch of places in the region. From there, right? I went good. Istanbul, I went to Dubai, I went to Doha. I went to like a bunch of places in that region. So it was really cool time to be in Cairo. 

And then after that, we ended up traveling for probably a year and a half, right. And we did those kind of spots spent the summer in Belgrade. And we went down to San Diego went to LA and then we were doing Mediterranean island hopping with the Malta for a month and Sicily for a month and Cyprus for a month. 

And then we did end up breaking up. This was back in summer of 2016. And we were on the island of Cyprus. And so once that breakup happened, and it was final, and this was the end of a very long term relationship. You know, I was like, “Okay, I gotta, you know, move out now.” 

And so moving out, meant getting on a plane and going to another country. So I basically just jumped on Skyscanner and said cheapest flights from Cyprus to anywhere. And it said, Athens is the cheapest flight from there, you know, it's like 60 bucks. I was like done, I'm on a flight to Athens, you know, within 24 hours. 

And then I just went to Athens, went to stay in the place in the Exarchia, which is one of my favorite neighborhoods in Athens. I always stay there now when I go, it's amazing. And I just went to one of the coffee shops there and said, “Okay, now I get to plan the rest of my life. Like this is the next phase. Right next chapter, what's what's up next?”

Omar  

Definitely would like to, like build yourself up in a completely different country. Right? Like, at that point, you have been in a relationship for so long. How do you find yourself like..?

Matt Bowles  

Yeah, it was intense, man. I mean, it was a long term relationship. We'd lived together for a number of years. And so it was a massive transition in my life. It's a very, you know, emotional transition and everything. And so I was like, Okay, listen, like I first of all, I need a community, like that's urgent. I need hugs. I need to be around people to care about me, like I need that now, right after this breakup. 

But I really also just love traveling, you know, like, this has been amazing. What an epic experience. I had been traveling full time for three years at that point, right. And I said, and then I had heard about this program called Remote Year where they bring together a community of 40 you know, digital nomads, remote workers, that you know, whatever you want to call them that people that don't know each other never met before. 

And they're all going to commit to do this program where you travel the world together for a year and Remote, the company takes care of all your accommodations, all your co working space access, and all your airfare and everything. It's all covered. Just pay one fee right per month. And then you travel the world together. 

You live in 12 different cities on four continents for 12 months. It's the same 40 people traveling together the entire year so becomes a family man. I mean, it's it's incredibly tight community.

Omar  

You booked this in Athens?

Matt Bowles

What’s that? 

Omar

And I know, I've spoken to you before. So I know I don't I want to go into remote here in a minute. But between you actually go into Remote Year and when you landed in Greece, how long of that period was that?

Matt Bowles  

So I landed in Greece, probably that would have been June... at the end of June, maybe are so 2026 2016, I broke up. So we broke up in Cyprus, and I went to Athens and that that month was June, that was the end of June 2016, right, when I had to break up, but I'm in the coffee shop, and I'm looking online and trying to figure out what I'm going to do. And I had the idea about Remote Year. 

So I applied to Remote Year from the coffee shop in Athens, June 2016. And I get accepted to Remote Year, and I start Remote Year in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, at the end of August. So it was about it was about two months, it was about two months.

Omar  

Okay, so I think that's right there, that little period, that two month period, I think it has a little bit of gold in it, right. So this is a feeling that I think a digital nomad slash remote worker can really feel relate to. But on top of that, you felt that on a much more intense level, because you got out of a relationship, and then you move to a different country, we didn't know anybody. 

Right, and now people, everyone knows us as a remote worker. If you're a digital nomad, listening to this podcast right now, your life is constantly a revolving door, right. And whether that's friendships or relationships, or just really cool people that you met on the road, you're constantly meeting new people, constantly having to find community again, and do this. And a lot of people say once in a while that it starts feeling lonely, right? And in a way, that's really what accelerates the growth to whenever you go to a different country, you have to kind of reassess everything in your life in a way and and realize, hey, it should do I even want to come off the same way that I was in the last country that I was in, you know? 

So that feeling for you, right there being in Greece for two months and just having gone through this, I'm sure there was a period of just like, and from a human being perspective of having to rebuild yourself and kind of reassess your life and understand what was going on what you were going to do so, and you don't seem like the type of person at all, to me that was in their misery for too long. 

So kind of just explain to me how, what you did, what did you, I mean, did you attend a seminar? Did you go out to the beach every day and just kind of try to decompress? Did you go to coffee shops and try to meet people like what did you do during that period? 

Matt Bowles  

Well,I didn't stay in Greece for those two months. So I flew Greece immediately after Cypress, I only stayed in Greece for less than probably I only stayed there for a week, I would say. And I just used that week to try to figure out like, what is my next move gonna be? Maybe it was 10 days, something like that. Right? 

And so yeah, I went to the coffee shops every day. And I was like, Okay, I need to plan my life and plan my next move. So it's okay, apply to Remote Year, booom, done. And then I was able to get the interview with Remote Year and, and, you know, get into the program and all that. And then I said, Okay, I'm leaving for Remote Year in, you know, in two months. So what do I want to do for these two months, right? 

So what I did is I flew back to the States, I saw my family, I saw some very good friends. And I reconnected with people that care about me and that I wanted to get hugs from and you know, just sort of, like, have some quality time with before I go off on a 12 month commitment around the world, you know, with this new experience, right. 

And I also wanted to just, you know, okay, I'm going to go for a year. This is my itinerary. I know exactly what my itinerary is for 12 months, like what do I you know, do I need to do any, you know, shopping or you know, getting new clothes or packing for this or like, whatever it is. So I just kind of went back to the states and did all of that. And then I was ready to start Remote Year as a completely new chapter in my life.

Omar  

That's good. You push forward, you think ahead, a kind of decompress and went raging balls first to keep going straight, man. That's awesome. That's really good to hear. I think that's one of the best ways to do it. Right?

You hear people all the time. Like, I think one of the reasons that I ever even started traveling was that I had a friend, it was here, Larry, he lived on a trip to Australia for like six months. And at that point, I didn't even realize you could do that. I didn't even know that was the thing, that working holiday visa that they have there. 

And he had just done this after he had just gotten out of a long term relationship himself, right. And he went there literally two weeks after they broke up and he just said, fuck it, I'm gone. And he came back and completely different man, you know. 

So I think that's really one of the best ways to just look at your life as the next chapter and let's get going. Whether it's college or relationship or, or whatever else it may be. Next chapter. Let's keep moving forward. And that's where Remote Year came in. So...

Matt Bowles  

Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think you have to do that right. And sometimes things happen and they're unexpectedly painful at the moment, right? Like when I got fired from my job that was unexpectedly painful at the moment, right? I was personally hurt by it, you know, I was scared, I just moved, like out to LA. And now all of a sudden, I didn't have a job like I was, you know, you all of the things, right? And it was just like, holy cow is just the swirl of emotions. 

But then you need to think about, okay, how is this like, you know, assign or whatever you want to call it, right? But like, how is this like kicking me in the pants to pivot my life at this point to another chapter that can be more extraordinary than the previous chapter, right? And trying to take it with that mindset. 

And so that, okay, this is a breakup out of a relationship, it's emotional, it's challenging, and all that kind of stuff. But, you know, it was the right time for that, right, it was the right thing to happen. And now, that opens up a new path, right, for even more incredible and extraordinary things to keep going in your life in this other direction. I think just being open to that is really, really important.

Omar  

100% It's, it's funny, like, before we dive into your next chapter here, I was thinking about this today, it's it's so funny to me how we have such brief moments with people in our lives, in chapters of our lives that we share together, whether it's friends, family, or loved ones. And we're really just in each other's chapter book at that time, and then life moves forward. 

And you never know if you're going to see that person again, or if they're going to be around for a while. But really, we're all living our own story. And it's something that I was just kind of thinking of today over a smoke and a coffee. So I felt like bringing that up. 

So let's move on to remote here now, right now, apparently, from what you tell me and one other person tells me it's one of the most phenomenal things anyone will ever do even as skeptical as I was before. And people who have listened to this podcast enough, have known that I'm a little skeptical about Remote Year. So, but after speaking to you the other day, I feel like my mind's been completely changed. So run me down what Remote Year does what it does?

Matt Bowles  

Yeah, I mean, you know, what, what I really, really, really got out of it, that it was amazing was the primarily was the community aspect, right. So I've been nomadic for three years already, right? I mean, I've been traveling around the world, going to different countries book, my own accommodations, all this kind of stuff. 

The value that Remote Year and other work traveled programs, which I've subsequently done as well after a year. But what these work travel programs do is they provide you community, right, because one of the core sustainability pillars, if you are trying to do long term world travel, one of the core sustainability pillars that you need to attend to is loneliness, right. 

And having community and having people around you that, you know, care about you, and that you can have meaningful connection with and do amazing things with and create memories with and, you know, all of that. 

And so one of the things that I didn't have prior to doing Remote Year was community, right? I was traveling with one person, right? Who was my relationship partner at the time. And then I had no buddy because she and I broke up, right? So but even when I was traveling with her, you know, to be honest, the loneliness really I could tell was becoming palpable, because we weren't meaningfully plugging into social communities. And I guess did some, right? 

But I was just kind of, you know, just like, Oh, well, you know, we'll just do this,  we’ll just go out to dinner together, we'll just do this one thing together, whatever it was. So like, I didn't, hadn't really been doing that. 

And so all of a sudden, the Remote Year experience provided community, right, these were, you know, 40 plus people, all of whom basically made the same decision that I did, which is, I'm willing to leave everything that I have all the people that I know, behind and commit upfront to traveling the world with a bunch of strangers that I've never met for 12 months. 

Now, anybody that makes that decision, at minimum, is interesting. And is somebody that I want to hear their entire story, right? So I just landed there in Kuala Lumpur, and I just wanted to hear everybody's story. Who are these people? Who does this, right? What type of person other than me would do this, right? Like, I wanted to meet them. 

So you know, over the course of the year, you're living in 12 different cities, across four continents. And you are just having some of the most epic Adventures of your life, right? I mean, scuba diving with whale sharks in Thailand and, you know, ride... mountain biking the world's most dangerous road in Bolivia. 

And, you know, I mean, we went to the Formula One night raised in Singapore and you know, swimming on top of the Marina Bay Sands Hotel, the largest rooftop pool deck on the planet of Earth, like, I mean, just, I mean one thing after another thing and you're just like, you know, creating these unbelievable memories that somebody might say, Oh, that's the experience of a lifetime. But for you, it's the experience of the month or the experience of like, the two weeks, right? 

Because it's just, I mean, again, and again, and again, you're just doing epic amazing things. But you're exploring the world, and you're learning and you're having amazing connections with local people, right, as well. And you're just, you know, developing yourself as a human being to an extraordinary level through all the things that you're learning and experiencing when you travel. 

And the only thing that you're doing is with the community there, everybody is also just living their regular life, meaning you have regular life stuff happening. So people have ups and downs, and they have, you know, everything else. And so you're there for each other when people are struggling, or people have something bad happens in their life, or whatever it is. And so through all of that processes, ups and those downs and those amazing experiences, it just forms a level of a bond and a connection, where you're literally seeing these people every single day for a year, right? 

I mean, by the end of that year, there were some people that didn't finish the program for various different reasons, or whatever dropped out. But like for everybody that finished a program that was together every day for a year, man that is family for life. I mean, we finished five years ago, we still do weekly Zoom video calls with our group, you know, to catch up and check in and all that.

Omar  

That's insane, man. I think there's so much merit into a community like that, especially to travelers, you know, like, one of the weird things I think I dealt with, that maybe you can relate to as well was that when I came back from traveling, people that I met day to day that I used to get along with really well before I traveled all of a sudden, I didn't get along with that well. 

Yet every single time I met a traveler, even if it was locally, we got along incredibly well. So I believe travelers all tend to be similar types of people too. And then amplifying that with being with those same group of people every single month for a year just blows that connection through the roof.

Matt Bowles  

Yeah, and if you think about it, you know, in regular adult life, right, like, if you're not a nomad, you're not a traveler, you just live in the city and work at a regular job. You think about what are your top, you know, two or three closest friends, right? And how often do you actually see those people right? Like, if you don't work with them, you don't see them in the office every day, right? Let's just say just your friends, right? 

And maybe just take friend number two and three, if in case you see your best friend, like all the time, whatever, but friend, your friend number two and three, how often do you really see them once a month, maybe you know, we'll get dinner, we'll get coffee or we'll catch up or whatever, maybe and in normal adult life. So you see them 12 times a year, right. 

And now you compare that to this where you're seeing these people 365 times a year, you know, virtually every day, and you're doing epic and amazing things with them. I mean, we went you know, we went on a catamaran to the Galapagos Islands, you know, I mean, we I mean, we did we did like, I mean, off the wall, bonkers, amazing next level stuff. 

And some of the stuff we did was, you know, also like, you know, pushing through fear barriers, you know, mean, we went in like caving expeditions, and like, I mentioned, we mountain bike, the world's most dangerous road in Bolivia and did some things that were, you know, I was fairly trepid about, you know, some of this kind of stuff, but we did it together. And we came together and we supported each other. 

And we, you know, we got through, you know, certain things like that. And it was just like, the bonding that happens there was just amazing, man. I mean, yeah, I mean, those people that finish that program with me, it's family for life, man.

Omar  

So what would you say like out of those 12 cities and was like your favorite? Or the one of your best memories that you remember?

Matt Bowles  

Yeah, it's tough to say there was a lot of very different things that I liked about different cities, right. So we lived on an island on the beach in Thailand for five weeks. I mean, that's amazing, right? You're eating Thai food every day. You literally wake up, you're on the beach, you can get an hour long time massage on the beach, listening to the waves for $7 US, right? 

I mean, like, you know, I did my I did my, I had my basic open water scuba diving certification, but I did my advanced scuba certification while I while I was in Thailand, and we got to swim with whale sharks in the wild as part of our scuba training like the you're not expecting them to be there, but then they're just there hanging out. 

I mean, it was like, I mean, like, unbelievable stuff like that, man, you know. So there were things like that they were amazing. But then there were, you know - 

Omar  

Did you get to do the night dive in Thailand. That's something that I've been wanting to do for so long.

Matt Bowles  

I have not done a night dive ever anywhere. So that's still on

Omar  

Pretty sure you need more advanced than that, right? Because I know in Thailand they have like this place what's like the photoplankton stuff that makes the water turn blue, they have different points we can do a night dive and just kind of swim through. 

And it looks like a sea of stars or something like that. So I've been wanting to do that shit for so long, but you got to that's gonna be the spot that I do that but that's cool, man. So keep... Tell me another one.

Matt Bowles  

No, I was just gonna say like, you know, that's that's amazing. That's like a beach Island experience. Right? But then there's like city experiences like Mexico City was amazing, right? Or, or their cities that are amazing, because they're, they're a great base for something like Lima, Peru was an amazing base that we're able to then go and you know, go to Bolivia, right? 

Which is one of the most spectacular landscapes that I've ever seen. anywhere on the planet of ours. I am recommending Bolivia to people if somebody tells me they have one week in South America, the entire continent. They've never been where should they spend it? What's going to blow their mind the mother? I'm telling him to go to Bolivia, man. 

Omar

What’s so special about it? 

Matt Bowles

It is... the landscape is unlike anything I've ever seen. It feels like if you go down to the server First of all, Bolivia has the world's largest salt flats. Okay. Yeah, I mean, if you see you should Google Bolivia, salt flats, and just doing an image search and just see the types of pictures people are putting up with them. 

So it's like, white as far as you can see, you can't tell if it's is it snow? Is it salt? Like what is this right as far as you can see, but then you'll be like driving along through it in like four by four Jeeps and stuff and you'll come across there's an island with cacti, right? 

Like all of these different cactuses, like 1000 cacti on an island in the middle of a salt flat. You're like, what is this right? And then like the next day, there'll be like rainbow colored mountains, right? 

The actual mountains are, you know, red, blue, yellow, like rainbow colored mountains. And then like the next day, there'll be like red colored lagoons with flamingos in them, right? Like standing up. It's pink flamingos in red lagoons. I mean, it was like everyday you wonder you got Rama locks, lava rock formations that are I mean, like,

Omar  

That's so strange.

Matt Bowles  

It felt like we're on a different planet, man. So like, I have never seen landscape like I saw in Bolivia. Blew my mind and everybody else that that was there with us, man, it was just incredible. 

And then this city of La Paz, which is the capital of Bolivia, itself was unbelievable. This is the highest altitude city in South America. It's literally built into the side of the mountain and the way that regular people get around like go to work instead of the bus or the cable car. Sorry, instead of the bus is a cable car! 

So they're literally taking cable cars like you would take in a ski resort. Okay? These are state of the art cable cars, like they're built by the company that built the cable cars in the Swiss Alps, right? Like this Austrian company. 

And then you're just writing these things. And it's the regular way that people get around. So it's like super cheap, you know, it's like super bucks. And you can just ride around and cable cars. And you're just seeing the city aerial view, like built into the side of a mountain. It was crazy man, like Bolivia will just blow your mind. 

Omar  

It's gonna add that one to my list. Man, that sounds really cool. I love how there's always like these different places that you hear like really strange t, like out of the ordinary type places. It's almost like a massive predator hunt. That's the way I kind of look at it. 

Someone told me the other day about a wine fountain in Italy. Like an actual like, instead of a water fountain. It's a full on wine fountain that people drink out of as well as throw pennies and there too. So I thought back to back kind of blew my mind was just has like a billion gallons of wine to waste every day. 

But yeah, it's just like little things like that, I think, I think you know, it'd be even cooler. And this was, this was an idea that my friend had quite recently, but just like you said, in Bolivia, with these different little landmarks that kind of stand out and people want and they're just out of the ordinary, that maybe have like some sort of like geo app or something that just has like a bunch of different landmarks around the world that you go and just try to fly to these different landmarks instead of focusing on the countries and things like that, you know? That sounds that sounds super cool, man.

Matt Bowles  

There's a lot of amazing stuff all over the world, man. It's unbelievable. I mean, that's why travel is so incredible, because there's so much of it. And I have only seen this a tiny fraction, you know?

Omar  

Yeah. Where do you want to go after this? Like, I know you've done the whole Remote Year thing now and you still keep in contact with the people from Remote Year. But you've already been to 65 countries like what else is on your list?

Matt Bowles  

Man so much. I mean, well, I'll just give you one example. I mean, based on what we're talking about natural landscapes. Anytime you see a list of like the 100 most incredible natural landscape things or whatever, at least 20% of mine are in China, and I have never been to Mainland China. So that is just massive. I mean, you're talking about almost 20% of the world's population lives in this country, right? 

Mandarin is the most spoken first language on the planet of Earth more so than English or Spanish, or Arabic or any language, right? I mean, you're talking about an enormous place that just has so much there. I feel like China just... I've been to Hong Kong and I have been to Macau. I've never been to Mainland China. And I feel like it just deserves an enormous amount of my time. So I would love to do that. 

Would love to see the western part of China and then from there, do the Silk Road and just go through, like Kyrgyzstan, Kazakhstan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, and just kind of like, go from western China all the way over to the Caspian Sea. See that region? Iran is super high on my list. I mean, that is really, really very high at the top. And then, you know, I would -

Omar  

What's special about Iran?

Matt Bowles  

Man, have you talked to anybody who's ever been to Iran, like all the guests that I've had on my podcast that have been to Iran have just said it, blew them away, like, everything from the food, the history, the culture, the architecture, and then just natural landscape as well, and Iran, like its massive country, and just supposed to be incredible. But I've, I mean, I've had Persian friends since you know, high school. So my best friends were Persian, and they've taken into the Persian community barbecues and like, I've just been loving Iranian food, and just the people are just amazing, like, you know, and all that. So I've wanted to go for a while. 

And then the more people I talked to that have been to Iran, I've just said, It's supposed to be incredible. So I really want to go there. And then I want to see a lot more of Africa man I've been to, I probably spent about two years total in Africa, including those nine months in Egypt. But I bent up out of it about 11 African countries now, right, but there's, I don’t know, 56 or so of them, right? 

So I really, there's a number of African countries, I really want to get to I just... In 2019, I spent about five months on the continent. And I did three of those months in West Africa, which was incredible. A month in Nigeria, a month in Ghana, and a month in Senegal, which just completely won my heart. I mean, I am talking to people about West Africa. 

I've been just continuously for the last couple of years, you know, and then 2018, I went to East Africa, and I did Kenya, Uganda and Tanzania. But I really want to go like if you want to ask me my number one country right now. And I listed Africa that I've never been to, I would say Ethiopia.

Omar  

Ethiopia. That’s not one that you hear everyday. Why is that? 

Matt Bowles  

Some of my I mean, well, first of all, Ethiopia is the global birthplace of coffee okay? So and Ethiopian coffee, which is which

Omar  

I had no idea. I always thought that was Brazil. But I guess I was wrong.

Matt Bowles  

I mean, there may be some contestation about that. I don't know how controversial that claim will be. But I think that most people would probably agree that Ethiopia is in fact, the global birthplace of coffee, Ethiopian coffee in particular, I love and Ethiopian food is one of my favorite foods on Earth. 

I mean, I put it up with, you know, Thai food, and, you know, Indian Pakistani food. And, you know, I mean, just my absolute all time favorites, it would definitely be in my top five, I would say.

Omar  

Do you think that's a driving force of where you pick to go? Like the food?

Matt Bowles  

Man, I mean, sometimes, you know, I keep going back to Japan. I go for a month at a time I've gone three times in the last, you know, few years. Just I mean, food is a big part of it. There's other parts of it too, right? But like if you go to Japan the culinary experience is so insane. 

Omar

Right.

Matt Bowles

That it's just like you're just you can hardly believe what you're how good the food is. And so yeah, I mean, that's a huge perk to go into places like Japan, huge perk to going to Thailand as well as one of my favorite foods, but the Indian subcontinent as well, man, I mentioned to you I was gonna try to go to Pakistan in 2020, Lahore and Punjab, which, I mean, I love the Punjabis and just it's you know, I've been to the Indian side of Punjab. I haven't been to the Pakistani side. 

Omar

Right.

Matt Bowles

So I really want to go to Lahore I've heard amazing things, but also the food, my gosh, if I could just go and just eat three to four meals a day. I mean, like, whatever else happens, like, I'll be good man. Like, that's how I feel like when I go to India or go to Sri Lanka, like whatever else happens, if I'm eating three to four meals a day, I am going to be amazing.

Omar  

That's a real traveler mentality right there. That's true. Well. So, I mean, you've been like you've been all these countries, and you want to go to so many more is like the plan to hit all 192?

Matt Bowles  

So I am not a person who is, you know, collecting countries or trying to, you know, go and count the number of countries that I've been to...

Omar  

But you are collecting experiences, right?

Matt Bowles  

Collect the experiences. Yeah. But for example, okay, I mentioned to you that I've gone back to Japan three times since I first went there, right? So that's probably like over the last Well, before COVID, let's just say before COVID started between the end of 2017. And the end of 2019. I had been to Japan, I went back to Japan three times, right. And a two year period. For one month each, I went to Tokyo for a month. And then I went back and I went to Osaka for a month, and then went back and went to Kyoto for a month. Right. 

So I be... why, because Kyoto was so unbelievably high on my list, man, you know what I mean? Could I have gone to another country that I'd never been to? I could have, you know, I could have gone to another country. But Kyoto, the city, was so high on my list. I wanted to see it so badly, that I just decided to go back to Japan again. And as opposed to saying, “Oh, I've been to Japan, the country. Yeah, but I haven’t been to Kyoto, just because you've been to Tokyo doesn't mean you bet. Kyoto is very, very different. Right? 

That's like, yeah, I mean, that's like, you know, you've been to New York City, but you haven't been to the Grand Canyon. Like, those are two very different things, right. Or, like, I've been, I've been to the US Well, okay. There's a lot of different stuff to do in the US. Right, right. But But you know, but so for me, I mean, I will go back to Spain. Probably every year, I go to Spain, and I'll go instead of different cities, I go to a month in Barcelona for a month. 

Then I go to Bilbao in the Basque Country, right for a month. Then I go to Valencia for a month, right. Then I go. And I just keep going back. And I go to different cities. I want to spend time in Madrid. I want to spend time in the south and I'm the Lucien, Grenada. I just keep going back to Spain. I love it, man. I love the country of Spain.

Omar  

I guess. I guess the main reason that I'm asking this question specifically, yeah, I think this is for some of the older nomads as well. But you've done this for quite some time. Like, much longer than I were not that much longer. You started in 2013. I started in 2016. But I'm younger than you, right? 

So I try to look at it and I never plan that far ahead. But I guess in a way, I'm trying to understand this belief of mine, if it's true or not, but what it is, is like, how long do I want to travel for, right? Because if I could, in my head, I would love to travel for the rest of my life. until the day I die, you know, but really, like, I'm trying to find the perspective of somebody that's older than I am that's still doing, it's like what the end goal is or what you want to do with them. And you still have so many lists. 

And if I'm your age, by the time by that time, and I'm still traveling, like I made it like I'll be super stoked. So that Yeah, I'm just curious, like, where is it there? If it's not going to all 192 countries? What is it for you?

Matt Bowles  

Yeah, I mean, like, like I said, it's not so much the country count. That's the goal. It's continually going and having amazing experiences, right. And so part of that is seeing places, right? 

So I was just kind of giving you the example that like, I want to go have amazing experience. Even though I've been to Tokyo, Japan, I might choose Kyoto, Japan for my next experience if I've never been there. And you know, that might be a higher priority than going to a new country, per se, right? I mean, it's it's very different from Tokyo to go to Kyoto. Right? So So that's all I'm saying is that it's not like a country per se, because there's plenty of people... 

Omar

I get it. 

Matt Bowles

I say plenty. But I mean, there are some people that have, you know, been to every country in the world, right? And some of them have done it, like by this young age or whatever. And they're thinking like “been to every country by this age”, okay. They went to these countries, a lot of them for like two days. And they saw one city...

Omar

I don't count that, to be honest.

Matt Bowles

You know what I mean? Or something like that. So I'm just saying that that's not my goal. Not I go, I want to have a resume where I say, I've been to this many countries. No, I want to have… 

Omar  

I think it’s a… anyways...  but I'm not gonna judge anybody.

Matt Bowles  

Yeah, I mean, I for me, I mean, everybody can travel the way they want to travel, right? Like, I'm not saying anything negative about the way anybody else travels, either, like do your thing, right? Like I'm just saying, for me, I want to have immersive, meaningful travel experiences in places that are the most interesting and exciting to me. 

And oftentimes, I'll often go back to a place, right? I mean, I will go back to because I've been to Tokyo multiple times, I've been to Barcelona multiple times, and I go back to cities that I like, as well, because I enjoy it there. 

The other thing, though, that I will say that I think is really important to add to this discussion, is that my travel and my nomadic and my location independence is not just about the places. It's not just about the places, and that's really important. 

It is also about the people that I am surrounding myself with. And so a lot of my travel choices will be people based. And oftentimes there'll be a combination, right? It'd be like, okay, I want to go to the French wine country for a month, right. And I just want to go through Bordeaux and Burgundy and like see the most beautiful vineyards in the world and drink the best wines in the world. And I just want to go and do that for a month. And who are the friends that I know that love have wine.  And would really appreciate that it would really want to do that with me. And then I'll put like a crew together. And we'll go and do that, right. So I did that in the summer of 2018, for example, okay, so there, I'm going to a place, I'm having an experience that I want to have. But I'm doing it specifically with really good friends of mine that I want to spend time with that will appreciate that experience. 

Now, the group I went with to West Africa for three months, was also a very close crew of mine of friends that I put together to do that trip. And they were a different group, right? These are people that would really appreciate, you know, nightlife in West Africa, and really want to sort of immerse in and, and and really, you know, have that experience, right? 

So a lot of my travel will be around who are the people that I want to spend time with? What are the places that I want to see? And oftentimes overlapping them? Who are the people that I want to spend time with, in this particular place? And organize it that way?

Omar  

Makes a lot of sense. Yep. That's really cool. Um, yeah, that's giving me some ideas to you know, when I'm listening, there's so much I'm learning from you here from my own in the way that I want to apply to my own travel, adventure and experiences. So then, what you didn't mention, though, like, I mean, you're 40? What now? 

Matt Bowles

44. 

Omar

You're 44 now. Do you want to still travel to your 60s? Do you want to like, you have your business now you're, you're living prime life? You know, like, what is it that you want to do?

Matt Bowles  

So, for me, location independence is all about having options, having choices, and having the freedom, right? To make choices at and then make different choices at any given moment, right? So I have the, you know, my first six years of location dependence, I was in LA, didn't need to be in LA, I just chose to be in LA, right. 

Last eight years, I've been nomadic at a particular pace. I could be doing something else, but I'm choosing to do that, right? So for me, it's about being able to choose what is the optimal, you know, choice for me right now, what is the most exciting, exhilarating, you know, find enjoyable, meaningful, substantive, you know, fulfilling whatever you want to call it, right? Whatever adjectives you want to apply to it. thing for me to be doing right now. Okay. 

So there are a lot of places I want to see, there's a lot of people I want to spend time with, there's a lot of really amazing stuff I want to do. And it's invigorating and amazing to go. And to do that, right. If at some point that were to change, or I had a different priority that arose, you know, if I, for some reason wanted to be in a particular place, or with particular people that weren't able to travel or do this, and I would have the ability to do that.

Like a friend of mine, got injured and had to have surgery and was going to be laid up in Cape Town, South Africa for two months, right. And her family was in the US and wasn't able to go over there to take care of her and she didn't have people there. And whatever, because it was, it was a surprise injury that she had, okay, but she had to have surgery there. 

And then she had to be laid up for two months. So she's one of my best friends. So it was, what I was able to do is be like, well, I'm coming to Cape Town to take care of you then for two months, of course. So I just booked the flight, it just went to Cape Town, you know, and, and then I just stayed with him for two months, and like, you know, took care of her and made her food and did her stuff and whatever, because that was just obvious that she was one of my best friends. And of course, that's what I would do. 

But I had to location independence to do that. Right? So for me, it's like, Okay, I have this freedoms, and I have these choices, and I can go where I want, I can stay as long as I want. If I want to be spending time with my family, if I want to be spending time with this person, if I get into a relationship with somebody that's not able to travel, and I want to be with them, I have the location independent freedom to go to where they need to be, and stay with them in their city, if that's what it takes to be with them. And that's the priority, right? 

So it's all about just making the choices that are best for you at the right time. It's not for me anyways, it's not about you know, this specific exact lifestyle and travel cadence is the optimal, whatever. No, it's like, how can I create amazing fulfilling experiences, and you know, location independence just simply gives you the freedom to have options and choices to do that.

Omar  

Yeah, it makes total sense. And in a way, that's what this entire podcast is about completely the reason why I started it and what other people are trying to achieve by listening to this, achieving that financial and locational freedom to the fullest extent. 

So that you're able to make choices like that at any point of your life coming in with whatever's coming into your life or whatever's leaving your life at any given moment. Right so it's great at that point you you can pretty much do whatever you want, you know so...

Matt Bowles  

Yeah, and you're and your choices may change and that's okay. Like you may choose to travel at different speeds. You may choose to adjust your travel cadence, the travel is slower, you know, to stay in a place for six months or 12 months, and then go to another place for six months, or 12 months, right? 

Or you may choose to travel faster at different points or, or mix it up, right? Like sometimes I'll try to go to places for I like to stay place at least a month, a minimum of a month, right? But then when I'm going to another place, like when I was in West Africa, for example, I did. I did. I was in Accra in Ghana for a month because I really wanted to see Ghana and oh my gosh, I wish I could I should have stayed longer than a month. It was amazing. 

But then I went, I was going to Senegal for a month because that was another super high priority for me. But I wanted to see the Ivory Coast for a little bit. But I said, Okay, I'm not I don't have a month to spend there. But I'm going to do a four day stopover in the Ivory Coast, see that for four days, and then go to do the month in Senegal. 

So sometimes as I'm going from one long term stage to another long term stay, I'll do like a short term stop over, you know, do a long weekend somewhere, kind of see that on my way and kind of go so you know it all it all just depends on there's ways that you can structure and restructure your travel cadence. The important thing is that you're the one that's in control.

Omar  

Yeah, you're varying your travel styles, whatever way that you feel like, I think he's very value based to you know, like, what, what do I value at this given moment in my life? What do I find important to me? Do I want to stay around with friends that I met in my travels? Let me go to Bali for the second time this year to go meet up with everybody? Do I want to go have an adventure by myself on a solo backpacking trip? Yeah, then I'll go to Bolivia, for example, by myself, and I'll just meet people along the way, you know, just what am I feeling at that time?

What do I want to do and do it? You know, and I think that's the whole reason I've ever building a locational independent business to kind of make it a full circle here. Because you get that freedom and opportunity to do whatever you want to do, right? 

That's the reason people are so adamant on trying to get passive income and all sorts of different things because they in some way, the understand that it gives them freedom. And I think anyone especially in this day and age to kind of push it onto here before asking your final question of the day. 

The reason that anybody should start any sort of business these days, I don't see the unless you're very, like a stability base and your values are very high instability or structure. Like, I don't see the reason why anyone wouldn't start a locationally independent business because the world is your oyster now. 

We don't live in the 1950s where airplanes are might crash or, or they just got invented. We live in the 1900s. We live in the world very, very, very lucky in humanity and civilizations like years in Earth's history to be living in this current 100 years. Like I couldn't think of a you're blessed. Like if you still think the old way of creating a business that says that McDonald's is still the way to live life, you're severely mistaken, my friend. And that's a strong opinion, opinion that I'll always have. Yeah, I'm seeing you there nodding. So I know that you agree with that for sure.

Matt Bowles  

And I mean, the other thing about location independent business is that it doesn't just afford you the freedom of mobility. But it also affords you the ability to hire staff from anywhere in the world. And to recruit the best talent, one because they don't have to live in your city and commute to your office, riight? So you have the world as your, you know, potential pool of applicants as opposed to just people in driving distance from your office. 

The other thing is, you're able to offer your team members, right, your staff, the benefit of location independence, so that you are helping other people be location independent by offering a remote job when you're ready to build your team in scale, right. And that's also going to attract the best talent because of course, the best talent wants that benefit. Right. So everything is moving in that direction. I agree 100%.

Omar  

It'd be interesting to see what happens in like, the next 10 years, this is gonna be a gig economy. And I agree to be honest, but we'll see. So I'd like to wrap this podcast up with one final question here, right? And I asked everybody this question, and you've probably heard it because you're a Tim Ferriss fan. And I have a variation of what he asks at the end of his podcast every time so let's see what you say. 

If you had a billboard in space, and every single day from Planet Earth, everybody could see that billboard when the sun rose, and when the sun went down, the billboard went away. It was in some universal language that everybody could read. If you could write a few sentences on that billboard, what would they say? 

Matt Bowles

That's a good question, man. Work it would, what would the billboard say? Hmm. 

Omar

It's interesting what your answer is gonna be too because you're in a different part of your journey than I am. You know, you're at the point that I'm trying to reach right now. I would say keep going. So I'm trying to see what you would say, putting myself In your shoes.

Matt Bowles  

Yeah, this is a billboard that everybody in the world can see? 

Omar

That's right. 

Matt Bowles

I will probably pick something relating to a social justice or human rights cause that I care about. So I would probably put something like Black Lives Matter, or Stop Asian Hate or Free Palestine or something along those lines, that would matter, and that would be substantive. 

And that would make people perhaps, you know, think about something or start asking a question, or might inspire people to take action to make the world a better place. And to, you know, stand up against oppression and inequality of some kind.

Omar  

That's a great answer. And no one's ever given an answer like that before on this podcast, so that's interesting. Yeha, really cool. Nice. Thank you so much for coming on today. Matthew, that was incredibly insightful and kind of rejuvenating my love for travel too. 

Matt Bowles

Thank you for having me, brother. It was a pleasure.

Omar

Absolutely.