The Old Front Line
Walk the battlefields of the First World War with Military Historian, Paul Reed. In these podcasts, Paul brings together over 40 years of studying the Great War, from the stories of veterans he interviewed, to when he spent more than a decade living on the Old Front Line in the heart of the Somme battlefields.
The Old Front Line
Demarcation Stones at Ypres
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In this special episode, Paul Reed discusses the Ypres League's mission to preserve the history of the Ypres Salient and the significance of Demarcation Stones that mark the furthest advance of German forces during the First World War in 1918. Roger Stewart and Dr Dominiek Dendooven share insights into the history, design, and restoration efforts of these stones, emphasizing the importance of community involvement and funding for their preservation. The New Ypres League aims to foster relationships between different communities and ensure that the legacy of the First World War continues to resonate with future generations.
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Tonight I'm joined by two great stalwarts of First World War history in Flanders. Roger Stewart, battlefield guide, historian, and author, whose books on the aftermath of the Great War at Yape and the German cemetery at Langemark are First World War classics, in my view. And also Dominic Denduven of the In Flanders Fields Museum, himself, an author, who's cast light into so many different aspects of the lesser-known history of that conflict in Flanders Fields. And in this episode, we're going to discuss the demarcation stones that were placed on the battlefields after the Great War to act as beacons to the conflict and look at their past, present, and future history and a special project relating to them as that comes into play. So good evening, gentlemen. Welcome to the podcast and thanks for joining us.
SPEAKER_01:Good evening, Paul.
SPEAKER_00:So, I mean, first of all, I know you're both working with the E League, which is a kind of reincarnation of a much older organisation. I don't know if you want to say about something about that first.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, the um the new Eperleague came about really after um a discussion um between myself and and Dominic. Um and we were we were looking at the the future really you know of commemoration in the presalium. And as time goes on, um, of course, the personalities involved get older and older, and you know, they become less and less. And we were a bit concerned, really, that you know, maybe in 15, 20 years' time that there wouldn't be, you know, many people doing this. So we thought it was uh a very apt idea, I suppose, to to reform um the original EPRLeague, but it in its new incarnation as the new EPR league. Um bearing in mind and taking into account a lot of its original aims and objectives, but also, of course, moving it forward, you know, as we believe the original EPR League would have done had it have continued, you know, post-World War II. So that's the main reason why you know the new EPR league um came into existence. And it's really in about a year and a half, it's gone from strength to strength. Um we have Lady Lucy French, you know, the relative of Sir John French as our president. Uh the mayor of Ypres, Katrine De Summer, is our is our vice president. Um one of our patrons, James Stewart Smith, runs a company called Classic Battlefield Tours in the UK. He's been excellent for us, you know, in terms of fundraising as well. Um, Jeff Vishora, um, one of the old skiperins from the city is a patron, um, and Paul Brainer as well, the the ex-governor of Flanders. Um, so and also we've got now a membership of over 100. So in about 18 months, um, you know, the the organization has has progressed and evolved as well. Um, so the the people involved, the members, tend to be, you know, people like ourselves, people who have a passion, you know, for the Epresalient, what it represents, you know, its monuments, its history, um, and of course, you know, remembrance as well.
SPEAKER_02:And and what I would like to add is that it is, and that makes it extraordinary, it is an Anglo-Belgian organization. So it also fosters the historic bonds, and through these historic bonds between EAP and well, let's say the Commonwealth, um, we also foster friendship amongst uh Britons and Belgians. And I think Roger and I are a good example of that. Um he's he's a Brit living in exile in Epe, and I'm uh a fully bred Belgian. So um and that is I mean, if we think about the original idea of the Iper League, that takes it somewhat beyond that. Though the initial um idea behind the original Iper League was um bringing together those for whom Ypres meant something more, uh of course in the context of the First World War. Um and that also goes for us, but with a stronger Anglo-Belgian uh bonds and an accent on that as well.
SPEAKER_01:I like just to add to that as well, um, as Dominic mentioned, you know, the word Commonwealth and you know, and encompassing all different countries. Um one of our patrons is Mr. Gopprich Singh, and Goprit is kind of the uh, I suppose one of the leaders here in the local Sikh community. And we've worked very closely, myself and Dominic in particular, with the Sikh community here, and between us and St. George's Memorial Church in Ypres, um, we arranged for a plaque to be placed in honor of a Sikh fallen here um during the Great War. So we're very keen on promoting relations. You know, we're a very inclusive um organization.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, we also felt there was a need for it because if you look at the existing groups active in Ypres, well, you've got obviously uh the British Legion, but that is a veterans-based organization and a purely British. You've got the Last Post Association, but of course the focus on the last post association, bless them, is continuing the daily Last Post ceremony at at the at the Meningates. You've got the Western Front Association, but they are more into well, let's say um scholarship and and and uh research. So uh there was really we felt there was a need for um for an extra organization who would do something different than uh the others, and and so we have a focus on active commemoration, being present at uh reburials, rededications, um making sure that uh groups that are less, as Roger just said, groups that are less commemorated so far are included, um and taking care of well, maybe sometimes forgotten memorials and forgotten aspects of the First World War, such as uh the demarcation stones.
SPEAKER_00:And kind of going back to that uh original Eagle, one of the things that they they did was to kind of begin to put some of the to the infrastructure of remembrance and battlefield tourism into place in that post-war period, including being involved in the demarcation stones. Now, perhaps not everyone listening to this will know what a demarcation stone is, so I don't know if you want to kind of give an overview of their history and how they came about.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's a very interesting history um and and they're very unusual memorials. Uh, there's a lot of them, there are tens of them. The idea comes from a French um sculptor um who proposed to have boundary stones all along like nowadays we usually call them demarcation stones, but in uh a press release from the early 20s, they were quite um in a quite good way described as boundary stones marking the high tide watermark of the invasion. Um, and that's exactly what they do. The idea was let's point out what was the furthest point ever reached by the invading German armies during the four years of conflict, um which makes them a very, very strong. I mean, now that we're nearly 110 years after the First World War, um the landscape has changed so much, whether it's in Belgium, certainly in Belgium, but also uh in many parts of France, um, that reading the landscape, if you're not very familiar with what happened, uh, is very, very difficult. And hence these demarcation stones, which mark uh the furthest point reached by the German armies, um, are very helpful because they show you exactly what and and if I say exactly, I mean if if you compare it with the aerial photographs and the trench maps, there might be two or three meters wrong insofar that it's wrong, but I mean that's really it they're clearly right on the spot where um the Allied troops had had the Germans stopped. So they're they're very important in um explaining the reality of of the military actions in the First World War.
SPEAKER_01:It's it's a good point because um when if you start reading the Ypres Times, which was the the quarterly journal um from the Ypres League, and also the CWGC have a have a file on the Ypres League and demarcation stones as well. During the pilgrimages, lots of veterans were were returning and families were returning, and of course, in in years after the First World War, the battlefields had been cleared, and all of a sudden, these places which they recognized during the war were no longer there. Um, so the placement of the demarcation stones was also felt important in that respect as well. So veterans could recognize, for example, where Hellfire Corner was and now it is, um, or Patesa or whatever. So it was a good marker point for the veterans to know that also the war had been there, you know, it hadn't all been cleared away and and forgotten about. Um, it was uh you know, actual point of remembrance as well. And and there were several different designs of these styles.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. That was also what I was going to stress that it is an interallied commemorative project. Um, even if the initiative was taken by a Frenchman and by the French uh touring club, which is something like like the AA. It it it was interallied, so you do have three different types along the Western Front. Um, you've got French type, and well, the stones are about they're not taller than one metre, um, so it's about three feet. Um the French type is topped with a French Adrian helmet and has uh French type of drinking bottle and hand grenade on the sides. Um you've got the British sides, which has the uh the Brody, the tin helmet on top, and then uh British type drinking bottle and hand grenades on the sides, and you've got the Belgian type with a Belgian Adrian helmet, and then again drinking bottle and uh hand grenades. So um they each time, for instance, if you look into uh in Belgium, along the ISO front, most of them are Belgian, and then in IPA you've got a mixture of of of French and and and British types. And it's not only inter-allied, it's also um it also shows you the different moments where the Germans had to be stopped. So, for instance, on the ISO front, they're nearly all mark the 1914, October, November 1914 uh point, um, furthest point reached by the by the uh by the Germans, while around Ypres. It's nearly all except in the Pussing area north of Ypres, where uh, for instance, the French and the Belgian demarcation stone are 1915, the second battle of Ypres, and particularly the the gas attack of of 22nd of April 1915. But east and south of Ypres, um, it's actually the German Spring Offensive. Because that was the moment when the Germans got closest to Ypres. And it's very I mean, still to me sometimes, it's still very surprising how close to Ypres they got uh for those familiar with the area. I mean, Zelabika Lake, uh Hellfire Corner is just I mean, 15 minutes' walk from uh from the Meningate. So that's another important aspect about these demarcation stones. Not only that they're inter-allied, but also that they show you how even in um April and May 1918 um the the Allied troops had to stand together to uh make that German push stop.
SPEAKER_00:And in terms of numbers um across the battlefield, I think they uh initially planned to put one every kilometre, didn't they? So there would be like, I don't know, four, five, six hundred of them, but that wasn't um ever achieved. But there's quite a large number in Flanders compared to some of the other individual battlefields.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, absolutely. Um I think there are I don't know in total in in France and Belgium. Uh in Belgium, 22 were planned, and 22 probably have been erected as well, and two have disappeared uh probably in the Second World War. There's one of whom we are a bit unsure uh because there are no existing photos. Um so there are still 20 all along between Newport and uh the Belgian coast and uh the French border south of uh so the United. That's that's actually a huge number. Um they're not all in a good shape though. Sometimes some during the second world war, what the German army did was uh well in English the text is here the invader was brought to a standstill. However, in Dutch in Flemish, the text is reads here the verwelder was uh was stopped, and the verweldiger is it's it's more aggressive, it's more um it's it's it's less neutral than the invader. So what you see is that in in quite some cases the um the stones remained but the engraved letters were removed. You still have some who were completely original. Uh, one on the Acer front, that's a very particular and quite funny story. Uh was covered at the beginning of the Second World War by a uh heap of manure by the neighboring farmer, and that's how it survived uh the second world war intact. Uh, but most of them, especially in the Episalient and especially the British ones, the ones who were erected by the original Epo League, or uh quite damaged, which is one of the reasons why we really want to uh put our hands on it and and improve their uh outlook.
SPEAKER_01:Those um the nationalities involved in in in terms of the um the helmets and the equipment on the demarcation stones themselves also kind of highlights, as Dominic was saying, the the international nature of the original Ypres League because of the 19 or 20 or so stones placed around the Ypresalian area and and in Belgium. Um the Ypres League paid for seven, well, seven and a half, actually, seven full ones and half of one over at Camel. And they're not just British stones, some are French, for example, the one at Patesa, for example. So the Ypres League actually play for, as I say, seven of in full seven of these stones. And as Dominic just kind of intimated, all of which now are in pretty poor condition in terms of weathering, for example. It's mainly apart from you know the Germans removing the text in in the Second World War, it's mainly just you know, wear and tear and natural wearage, really. Um so that's the reason why the new EPR league now are launching this project to get these demarcation stones brought back up to standard.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, when they were when they were raised and erected in the 1920s, as uh Roger just said, they were paid for by organizations and individuals. And it's a problem we're still sometimes faced with. It is quite easy to erect a new memorial, but the point the problem is uh um that you also have to arrange the maintenance and of the demarcation stone. It's it's even those um I mean they're all listed by the Flemish government, so they're all protected as as uh heritage. But there's no one who's owning it, so there's no personal connection. Um, there's no organization or uh individuals who have a personal connection with these and who maintains them, which is why we saw a role for the new Eperleague to uh to take that on.
SPEAKER_01:In my opinion, it was almost like our responsibility, you know, as we reformed or restarted, you know, the organization based on the old organization's values. And as and as Dominic has just said, because of the different ownerships of the time, they've kind of slipped through the net in terms of upkeep and who owns them. It was almost for me, you know, our responsibility to take this on, you know, and and do this. Because as a battlefield guide here and a salient as well, you know, and yourself, Paul and Dominic, with with the work you do here and all the other guides and everybody else who visits visits the area. As far as I'm concerned, we're all custodians, you know, of of the Epresalian. And we can't just let things go or ignore things and say, well, it you know, it's nothing to do with us or whatever. Um, so as I say, from an organizational point of view, this is almost a duty for us to to to get these stones um renovated and back to a reasonable condition. So future generations can come and you know and and enjoy them and and and learn about them and the history of the salient.
SPEAKER_02:Just to give you an idea of how possibly complicated um the ownership and and the custodianship is, is like the one at Hellfire Corner. Um Flemish Heritage Agency uh asked us, yeah, but I mean uh okay, fine if you want to work on the maintenance, but um you have to have permission of the owner. But there is no owner. So um I had to contact the um Eper Town Administration, city administration, and the only thing they did was looking at, oh yes, apparently it's public domain, so we own the ground. Um but I mean this is a clear example of of public ownership and the public, that's you and me. That's all of us.
SPEAKER_00:But I I I guess that uh when the Eagle, like so many of these organizations, kind of thought about this, the idea of legacy was probably a long, long way from from their minds because the war was so recent and that generation was still coming to terms with it all. And and they're they're they're featured quite heavily, aren't they, in the in the Eap League magazine, the the Eap Times, and I think they're marked on the the map of the salient that the the that the Eap League produced. So they're kind of part and parcel of it. But I guess they never thought that one day there would be a a question of ownership to to ensure their long-term preservation.
SPEAKER_02:But and by and large, I mean these are pink granite structures, they're still there. I mean, there is some weird and tear, but but uh if you compare it to well let's say the the Portland headstones, which is very soft stone, uh there the weir and tier is is even much, much, much bigger. But of course, then you've got the Walgrace Commission taking care of it. Um here the granite uh has withstood the time uh quite well um taken into account. I mean, from the 22nd, who were probably erected in Belgium uh 20 or still on the spots where they were over a hundred years uh ago erected. So they they're quite sturdy structures. It's just the uh the fine-tuning for instance uh the lettering that has disappeared, the details. We're not clear anymore.
SPEAKER_01:The one at Hellfire Corner is a particular example of that because for a start you can't read the word Epre, you know, at the at the top, you know, underneath the helmet. Um, I don't quite know how, but it's somebody's drilled holes in the back of it, for example. Um, there was a poem stuck to it with with mastic at one point on the front, and that's all glue, and that's damaged the front of that. So the whole thing needs, as Dominic's saying, you know, re but the detail needs needs recutting. So you know, so you can read the word Epres, you can see, you know, the hand grenades and the gas mask and a water bottle on the side. And text on the bottom as well, you know, recognizing the fact that who designed these things and who paid for them, you know, because the IPR league ones have you know the IPR league text on on the on the bottom as well. Um so the whole the whole project is aimed at not restoring them to 100% of their original condition, because it's important, they still, you know, retain, you know, the fact that they're over a hundred years old, but getting them to um uh a condition now where you know where maybe future generations won't have to, you know, look at restoring them again for maybe another 50 hundred years or whatever.
SPEAKER_00:And and the Hellfire Corner one has been moved around quite a lot. I think is that the one that's been moved the most, maybe?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, but short distances. Um there were some others who are moved much further. I'll just give you one example of about I think 10 or 15 years ago, and that was the one at Klein Vivstraat, um, which is a British type, uh if I remember well, or uh or a or a French type. Uh so anyway, 1918 uh German Spring Offensive. Clearly, if you look at the um regimental diaries of that period on the spot where indeed the first line was established uh during the uh German Spring Offensive there, but at one stage the Hoeveland, so the civil parish of Hoeveland Camel uh decided well, well, it will be much better if it's standing next to the American memorial along the Camel Road. But that is uh a mile further up um and and absolutely not uh historically not correct. So then well, we advocated it being removed, which was done after a while. So it was put back on. I I think that was the one that was moved furthest from its uh its point of origin. Um Hellfa Corner that has been moved but mainly because of um well traffic reasons. Um first when the new when there was a railroad there which is no longer there, and a tram line, and then finally the last time when the the large roundabout was built. And I don't see how it could be done otherwise because uh if it would have stood in the middle of a huge roundabout, it would just have disappeared because it's so uh so small. So at least now it is approachable. Um and one of the things we also would like to uh to do is at Halfire Corner, not at any of the others, but at Hellfire Corner having um a panel in a neighborhood uh erected which explains about these demarcation stones and uh the EPA leak so that people at least that there will be at least one where um the the proper explanation has been given of why and how and and when these things were put in place, probably pointing out where the others ought to be found.
SPEAKER_01:Also, in in in addition to that, on on the panel as well, it's an opportunity also to put a little bit of history on there in terms of Hellfire Corner as well, because that has or has been over the years one of the areas where I know a lot of people have been keen to place memorials and for safety reasons or whatever, it's not been it's not been possible. So it would be nice if we can put a little bit of information on the history of Hellfire Corner there as well, which will also, you know, um educate people to the importance of that site.
SPEAKER_00:Because I think somebody was gonna uh build a war horse memorial at Hellfire Corner at one point. I remember seeing a kind of fundraising uh page for for it. Uh um and I I kind of think, you know, as we've mentioned, the memorialization comes is a kind of a two-edged sword, really, in that um uh there has to be a future as well as a present.
SPEAKER_02:The most crazy thing, I was just near Hellfire Corner, but just slightly beyond the roundabout on the way to Hooch, there was one day a Dutch lady who approached in Flanders Fields Museum saying that she knew, meaning she felt that she knew the place where a particular soldier was had been killed, who's now on the meningate, and that uh she wanted to pay for a memorial to be erected there. And that was just her personal feel a spiritual feeling, knowing that this soldier with whom she had a connection had died there. So um, but uh I mean regarding memorialization, it is indeed a problem, and uh it's something that uh has always puzzled me is the fact how far would you go? I mean, uh a particular action, a particular regiment, a particular group, but how far do you go in commemorating individuals, for instance? Um, I dread of seeing our first world war battlefields becoming something like uh Gettysburg. If you go to Gettysburg, you've got 1000 uh memorials on a four-square mile area, so it's absolutely crazy. Nobody ever um so and and it's as you said, as we already said, it's quite easy to have a memorial or a panel erected, but the maintenance is is no nobody ever thinks about the maintenance. And these demarcation stones, they're quite sturdy, they're still there. But there's also quite a number of uh memorials, especially plaques, who have disappeared uh over the years, and some have been documented, but others others haven't. Um and it's something that for instance the the the town administration of Iber is quite uh worried about. Um yeah, I mean maybe we're partly to blame um by well partly to blame over the last 20-25 years we've tried to integrate uh less commemorated groups, but of course they also want to be represented on the memorial landscape, which is not something you can I mean, I'll just give you the example. The first memorial erected commemorating uh the Indian presence was one by the city of Ypr and the Sikh community in Holobeke, on the spot where uh Indians got in action for the first time on the Western Front. That was followed by an official Indian memorial on the lawn south of the Meningate, so from the Indian government. Uh, but then uh the town was approached by the Nepalese embassy because the Gurkhas were Nepalese nationals. Um their first proposal was a large pink Buddha where we well, we the town, so Ipa said, Well, maybe a pink Buddha is not really very appropriate for a battlefield monument. Um, and that's why now you have that little statue of a Gurkha uh a little bit further on. But then some time ago, but nothing came of it. Uh the the embassy of Pakistan also approached the town, said, Wow, you also want our memorial. Um and as you can hear, embassy here, embassy there, there's also always something political involved as well. Um, the Indian Memorial at the Meningate is by the Republic of India, which came into being in 1947. But the Indian soldiers who died in the First World War, they were all called Indian, but who today, for one-third, or maybe even more, be hailing from Pakistan. So it is it is commemoration is much more complicated than most people think. Um, and there's always even the most official, or certainly the most official ways of commemorating, there's always a political uh aspect, which is why I'm also supportive, so supportive of an organization as the new EPLEA, because that is an organization of individuals. We're not standing our main goal is uh commemorating, but with no hidden agenda. There's no uh we do not have a purpose of commemorating these or that one or or highlighting uh the just to give another example. Um if if Ulster Orange men are coming, of course they are commemorating their folk. We do not have something, the New Evil does not have something like our folk. They're all our folk. So that I think that's also an important aspect to be a neutral organization which folk whose focus is entirely on commemorating for the sake of commemoration and for the sake of what happened during and immediately after the first world war.
SPEAKER_01:And of course, that that openness, or however you want to call it, extends of course to to the German side as well because the Ypres League already has close contact with the German Wargrave Commission, and we've been invited to and we've attended burials, recent burials at Langemark German Cemetery. So, you know, that the the organization truly is encompassing, you know, all sides who fought and and obviously unfortunately fell um you know in the Christadien during the First World War. But just getting back to the monuments as well, and you know, the the discussion about old and and and new monuments, when you when you start looking at, and this is why this project for me is so important, these original monuments, these are the fabric, you know, this is the infrastructure of the E. Chrisalian. And the people who placed those monuments, you know, these were people who fought here or they fought for those regiments or or for those divisions. Now, when you start looking at the major monuments in the area erected by countries after the war, the Broodin Soldier, for example, of course, the Meningate, and you know, and so it goes on, of course, they're all looked after, you know, by their governments and paid for by their governments. But these smaller monuments, these divisional memorials, you know, like the one over at Hill 60, for example, and the demarcation stones, you know, the light division, which uh uh 20th division over at um Langemark, you know, who's responsible for those? You know, and so it's important that that people start looking towards, you know, preservation of these of these individual monuments. Not necessarily the most, you know, the most fashionable ones or the most visited ones, but it's important because the idea behind them is these are erected by people who were here at the time.
SPEAKER_02:The thing is, because that's maybe interesting for the broader public, and very few people know that, is um there are two lists in EPA uh circulating. And one list is the non-CWGC memorials maintained by the World Great Commission, which is maintenance, it's it's it's usually passive maintenance, so it's it's uh uh taking away everything uh I mean green and and and moist and and so on. And there's a second list of uh um other well that's uh let's call them orphans memorials, uh which is almost as large, and that's as the uh uh the EPA park services to uh make sure that it is as uh it is the bins all cleared and uh uh and moist that small reparations are done and uh uh that the area looks uh looks fine. So it is in a certain respect already a common endeavour, but in each case, whether it's the EPA Park Service or the Walgreens Commission, when it concerns the so-called orphans memorials, it's passive preservation. So it's not really active restoration.
SPEAKER_00:So in in terms of what you're proposing to do with the demarcation stones that remain today, you're gonna become the kind of custodians of that. But obviously, you're gonna need to raise money to help with renovations and the information panel and everything else. So kind of tell us a bit more about that and how people can get involved and support that.
SPEAKER_01:So, first of all, um we of course we've identified from records, of course, you know, the the um demarcation stones that the original Ibrah league were responsible for. And we plan to do them not all at once, of course, um, but start to do them in order, with with the Hellfire Corner one being probably the most important one to do first because of its condition and because of its historical significance and sighting as well. So we've approached the Commonwealth War Graves Commission and they've been incredibly helpful offering us um the skills of their stonemasons. Um so the War Graves Commission will be doing the work, they'll be taking the stone away uh to Boraine and then doing the work on the stone. And of course, we have to we've had to launch uh an appeal really for funds. Um, the demarcation stone alone, or at Hellfire Corner, sorry, alone, depending upon what work needs doing, could be anything, you know, 6,000, 8,000 euros, depend upon also the money we get back from Flemish Heritage, because Flemish Heritage have very generously agreed that they will re-rebate some of the money, some of the cost back as well. But when you think we've got seven to do, you know, it's quite a large amount of money to raise. Um, now we've already had two incredibly generous donations, which is which has set us well on our way. James Stewart Smith, our patron, who I mentioned earlier, held three shooting days last year in the UK, and the money raised for that, or those three days, has gone towards the demarcation stone project. And one of our members, Michelle Admiral, um, has made a huge donation as well, um, which again goes a long way to you know to having the work done. But I kind of estimate, I don't know what what Dominic thinks, but I kind of estimate we're gonna need round about another 8,000 euros, I would think, depending upon um what Flemish Heritage do to get all of these demarcation stones back to some sort of order. And on top of that, that does not include what we decide to do and what we can get permission to do with the missing stone over at Wiltshire, the one which disappeared during the Second World War. But our immediate priority is to get the existing ones back up to speed. So really we're we're looking for donations. Every penny, every euro, every dollar given to us is important and will be used purely for the demarcation stone project. And of course, we will keep everybody in, you know, um, hopefully through your, you know, through this medium as well, Paul, you know, updates on on how we are going with this.
SPEAKER_00:And I guess in the first instance, people could join the Eap League to kind of get things moving, and then we'll put links to that and also to your fundraising page as as well, where they can make direct donations towards this.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, the um the EP League website has got a donation um section on it purely for the for the demarcation stones. And yes, with with regards to membership, of course, everybody is welcome, and we we would welcome new members absolutely with open arms. Um it's a great community that we have now within the Epres League, it's a very social community. Um, people all who have got the same kind of aims and interests in in terms of the EPRASalient. We hold events throughout the year. Um we're relaunched or we have rebooted in effect the Epres day on October the 31st, which was you know the old Epres day of commemoration here. So there's lots of events going on through the year for members as well. Um, so yes, please, if anyone would would would like to consider joining, please do so.
SPEAKER_02:And then the new EPA League is is what we call in Belgium a visit V, which means a non-profit, a registered non-profit organisation, some something like a registered charity in the UK.
SPEAKER_00:So we'll put links to to to both of those things onto the the show notes and the podcast um website from this. And and what kind of time frame do you see going forward? Obviously, it's it's gonna take a while to raise the money you want and then start with Hellfire Corner. So I guess this is gonna progress over the course of the next few years, really.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, but I think and I I I mean Roger I know that you will usually contradict me if I'm wrong, so go ahead. But I'm pretty sure that uh Hellfire Corner, uh the Hellfire Corner one is something that should be done in 2026. So absolutely I mean suppose imagine that April Day 2026 we could focus on the Hellfire Corner demarcation stone. That would be great.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean that would be great, yeah, because I I guess you could also drum up quite a lot of kind of press interest in something like that, and then take it to beyond me a podcast like this to a much bigger audience who perhaps don't even know or aren't even aware that these things even exist.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, well, that's one of the aims. Um and and I mean quite frankly, locally there is an interest from the handful of journalists we still have in in EP. So um they're aware of our existence. And so now and then I think Roger has the same experience. They would ask, okay, what are your plans at this moment? So um I think locally we'll getting we're getting more and more known. So it's not only within the group of first world war buffs, but also uh locally and then and those with with an interest in local history.
SPEAKER_01:I think also this is why this this project is is very important because uh the New Eper League is not just purely a remembrance organization. Remembrance, of course, is is important and it'll always be one of the core of the organization. But as an organization, it's also great to or for people to see that we are actually making a physical difference to things here in the in the salient. We're we're we're not taking out what you know, we're we're putting back in. So for an organization's point of view, and I know it's important also, you know, for for a lot of our members that we're seen to be actively engaging, you know, in in the area.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean we just did a podcast about um you know, entitled Are We Forgetting the First World War? Well, on one level, of course, we're not, but there is a kind of danger of drift ten years after the the centenaries with the kind of public attention moving to let's say World War II for for example, and that the first world war begins to seem too far into the past. But it's been very interesting to kind of read people's reaction to this in that they argue that actually it's it's becoming perhaps more and more important. And and I I have a lot of under-35s listen to the podcast, and I had an email from a 20-year-old today saying how you know his generation are never going to forget that they're just as fascinated by it. And this is all good science. So you're kind of I think what's really important about what you're doing is you're building on the legacy of the past to create a legacy for the future for these for this next generation of people who will take this forward.
SPEAKER_02:If if if if we get back to the beginning of this, the importance of of the demarcation stones as boundary stones of uh marking the high watermark of the tide of invasion, well that's quite relevant for our days. Maybe the Ukraine one day will erect something like the demarcation stones. Well then the first one. Who were ever erected were those along the Western Front or the First World War?
SPEAKER_00:It's interesting because I mean the only other place I know where there are demarcation stones is in the Belgian Ardennes for the for the Battle of the Bulge, where uh a kind of similar kind of language. And it was interesting what you were saying about the difference between the word for invader in Flemish compared to to British. And I think that language of of how that generation spoke about the enemy, which you often see depicted on memorials, is is a fascinating subject in its own right.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, absolutely. And it's one of the reasons why I mean I sometimes have to explain as a historian that the Germany of then is not the Germany of the Second World War, and it's certainly not the Germany of today. I've given the example of India and Pakistan, and and the world has changed so much ever since. The mentality of the people has changed. So it's not getting easier to explain what happened then and why it happened and how it happened. But still the lessons to be learned for today, whatever your interpretation and your view on the military and why the war was thought and so on. But the lessons for today are huge. And again, just look at what happened and how things are happening in the Ukraine and the similarities, despite the differences, but the similarities with the First World War are tremendous, tremendous.
SPEAKER_01:I think you're right, Dominic, because if you know, if you don't remember, you know, you're doomed to repeat the same mistakes again.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, well, uh I mean we should not get too philosophical. Um I have my thoughts on that regarding humankind and repeating mistakes from the past. Uh but it's not because we're doing it again and again that we should not try to uh I mean, at least it's it's the duty of those who are in the known to defuse these ideas, I would say.
SPEAKER_00:I kind of prefer the the words of General Arthur Curry, the command of the Canadian Corps, and he says something along the lines of uh when he was asked, you know, I mean he he only lived a couple of decades after the Great War, but he was asked why should Canada still remember? And he said something along the lines of, well, if these are the things that we forget, what is it that we should remember? And I guess what he's saying there is, you know, what what what is what is important to Canada as a nation, to all of these nations that participated in the Great War, including Germany, of course, because that's just as much a part of the of the story as uh as those who are on the on the western side of the Western Front. So it's um I think it's it's all part of what I guess makes the First World War still relevant.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's on a on a on a multi-level, on a maximum level, but on a macro level. But on on the micro level, as something else that you just uh raised, Paul, um what I think that was extremely important during the centenary was not the official commemorations. It was how you saw that um in all the nations involved, there was an interest from family historians and family members. And the number of casualties and the numbers of those involved in the First World War are so enormous that it is just impossible that it will disappear because you will always have people who are interested in genealogy or in their family history, and at one point they will encounter the First World War, whether it is like in the case of Belgium as a refugee or uh as it as a soldier or a prisoner of war or whatever. So the this the interest might change in character, but will never fade away. It will never go away.
SPEAKER_00:And it always feels like it's an evolving subject, as you both know so well, that the part of that is the landscape, isn't it? The way that the landscape keeps talking to us, that last, as you coined that phrase in Flanders, that last witness of the First World War, that every time it's peeled back, it's got a new story to tell, whether that's the discovery of human remains or the the unearthing of a trench system or a bunker or whatever it is. So we're far from ever knowing it all. Absolutely, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And sometimes I got the question, oh yeah, well, it's still working on that first world war. Uh, don't we know everything by now? And then I start summing up all the things we do not know, and well, people get bored after 15 minutes.
SPEAKER_01:I have a saying actually on battlefield tours, I get asked a lot, do you get bored doing the same sites or whatever? And no, because every tour is different. The people on the tours, the stories on the tours, relative stories, every tour is different.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, but even the military side, uh it's only I mean infantry and cavalry, that's okay, but then artillery. What do we know about the artillery units? Hardly anything. Uh logistics, transport. It's so much that that's only huge subject. That's only the military aspects. So there is still uh for the generations our gen not only our generations, but those uh the 35-year-olds listening to your podcast, Paul. I mean, uh if they're in search of a subject, send them on.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I think uh the EP League has plenty of work to keep it busy over the course of the coming years.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I'd just like to add actually on the the subject, you know, of younger people. What one of the aims of the new EPRA League is to encourage younger members as well and the younger people to get involved in this. On Epres Day last year, 2025, we had a scout band from the UK parade of us, you know, a brass band playing all the way up to the Meningate, and it was fantastic. It was great to see young people having a genuine interest and and and wanting to be involved, and it's important, you know, this is encouraged. These are the people of the future.
SPEAKER_00:So I think this is this is a fascinating project, an incredible one to preserve something that is so important to that landscape of the of the first world war. We'll put the details of how people can get involved. I'm sure we'll come back to you guys to kind of get an update, and I'll try and if if it does happen this EP day in 2026, that you can get Hellfire Corner sorted out, I'll come out and maybe we can actually record something on site at the time to uh broadcast down the line to look at the next phase of what you're gonna do.
SPEAKER_01:Put it in your diary Paul. Can I just add just sorry, just just uh quickly, it's just to say to people, I know things are tough at the minute, but please, if you can spare anything, please help us, you know, achieve our aims with with with this project. And as we've mentioned, you know, you can donate very easily on the new EPA League website.
SPEAKER_00:That's brilliant. Thanks to you both. It's uh I mean we could sit here and talk all night about uh the Great War in Flandersfields, I know, but uh that's a bit more for another day, I think. But thank you both for joining me tonight and thanks for this work, important work that you're both doing out there and everyone else involved in the E League.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you very much.
SPEAKER_00:You've been listening to an episode of the Old Frontline with me, military historian Paul Reed. You can follow me on Twitter at Somcore, you can follow the podcast at OldFrontline Pod. Check out the website at oldfrontline.co.uk where you'll find lots of podcast extras and photographs and links to books that are mentioned in the podcast. And if you feel like supporting us, you can go to our Patreon page, patreon.com slash oldfrontline, or support us on buymea coffee at buymeacoffee.com slash oldfrontline. Links to all of these are on our website. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you again soon.
