The Old Front Line
Walk the battlefields of the First World War with Military Historian, Paul Reed. In these podcasts, Paul brings together over 40 years of studying the Great War, from the stories of veterans he interviewed, to when he spent more than a decade living on the Old Front Line in the heart of the Somme battlefields.
The Old Front Line
London Pride: The London Territorials in WW1
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In this episode of the Old Front Line podcast, host Paul Reed is joined by military historians Charles Fair, Richard Hendry, and Dr. Tom Thorpe to delve into the often-overlooked history of the London Territorial Force during the Great War. The discussion begins with an exploration of the origins and purpose of the Territorial Force, established in 1908, which served primarily for home defense before the war. The historians highlight the unique characteristics of the London Regiment, which comprised numerous battalions, each with distinct identities tied to local communities, and how this diversity contributed to its prominence in the war effort.
As the conversation progresses, the historians discuss the evolution of the London Territorials throughout the war, noting how the composition of the units changed as conscription began and how the original local identities were diluted. They also touch on the social dynamics within the battalions, the challenges of equipment shortages, and the significant contributions of the London Territorials in various theatres of war, including the Western Front and Palestine. The episode concludes with insights into their upcoming book, "London Pride," which aims to provide a comprehensive study of the London Territorial Force's history and its impact on the Great War.
You can order the book here via the Publisher: London Pride The London Territorials in WW1
Main Image: Men of the 19th Battalion London Regiment digging trenches in England c.1915 (Old Front Line archives)
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When we think of the Great War and the men who fought in it, we're often drawn to the volunteers of nineteen fourteen, the men of the new army, Kitchener's mob, and the POWs, but there were other volunteers in the Great War and units that were in many ways POWs long before they were even thought of. And tonight I'm joined by a trio of historians to discuss the Saturday Night Soldiers, the territorial force units connected to the City of London. Charles Fair is a military historian with a lifelong interest in the First World War and a personal connection to the 19th Battalion, the London Regiment. Richard Hendry, after a background in law, did an MA in First World War Studies at Wolverhampton and specialises in the history and units of the London Regiment. And Dr. Tom Thorpe, a military historian whose PhD focused on the London Regiment, is now the presenter of the Western Front Association's excellent podcast mentioned in dispatches. So thank you, gentlemen, for joining us here and welcome to the Old Frontline Podcast.
SPEAKER_01Thanks, Paul. Thanks for having us.
SPEAKER_00In terms of kind of looking at this subject, the territorial force, it's for a modern audience, perhaps a bit of a clumsy word. Most people think of the TA, the territorial army, or just the territorials. In terms of what that was, because it predated the First World War, didn't it? Perhaps you'd like to say a little bit about the kind of development of the territorial force and what it was there for.
SPEAKER_01Well, the territorial force was, in a sense, the successor to the to the volunteer arrangement that had applied through the uh through the 19th century. It was set up under the Haldane reforms of 1908, um, and was administered through uh a set of uh territorial force associations, and the ones we're particularly concerned with here are the London uh associations, the County of London and the City of London. It was the various units, infantry, artillery, uh, engineers, whatever, uh administered by uh those two associations uh or uh other forces that were were part of the London's four uh divisions uh as as uh as they had in the 47th, 56th, 58th, and and 60th divisions as they ultimately became named. So yeah, that that's that's who they were. They were a set of volunteers, as you've pointed out, um, citizen soldiers, they've often been called, the more pejoratively Saturday night soldiers, etc. Charles, would you like to add anything or Tom on that?
SPEAKER_03Um I think that the thing to note about London is that actually it accounted for before the First World War, one in seven, so two of 14 territorial divisions in in Britain were actually London territorials. One in seven London territory territorial soldier was a Londoner.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I think I think the other point is that they are for home defence. This is their purpose. They are very much mobilised in the event of an invasion threat or the dispatch of the British Expeditionary Force to the continent, and so their their purpose is to prevent invasion, and that is their terms of service under the under their sort of legal statute. They cannot be compelled to serve overseas unless they sign the Imperial Service Order, which grants their permission to be deployed outside the United Kingdom at that time.
SPEAKER_00And with the with the London Regiment, I mean there were territorial battalions in existing regiments across the UK, but there were these territorial regiments formed before the Great War. But the London Regiment was kind of without precedence, wasn't it? Because it was so big with so many different battalions.
SPEAKER_01Formidable. I think by the end we're talking 34 battalions, uh obviously many of them with second and and and third lines. Um so uh I've I've not done a precise count, but it it would be I would think best approaching 90 or 100, something like that.
SPEAKER_03It's certainly getting on for that, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yes, so significant. Yeah, I mean, I suppose that the question becomes ultimately why we've chosen to focus on uh through through our project London Pride, why we've chosen to focus on the London territorial force in particular. Its size is is certainly one aspect of that that you've touched on, Paul. And linked with that that we we noticed a considerable disparity in the historiography between the the the coverage of of the London territorials and that of the Dominion, particularly Australian and Canadian forces, um, and their contribution to uh uh the the effort in the in the in the Great War. And yet London, the London Territorials, actually provided a uh a manpower input that was not dissimilar to either of those Dominions. And so that was one factor that that drove us down uh the route of of looking uh at the London Territorial Force alongside, well you've mentioned uh Charles's connection, uh, our various antecedents. I think between us we muster four grandfathers and a great uncle, all of whom had a connection of one form or another with the with the London Territorial Force. But yeah.
SPEAKER_03Another point I'd add actually is that London didn't have new army formations in the same way that some other regions of the country did. So you can't point to a new army division and say that was a London division. So the new army battalions that were raised appear all over the place. You'll find them in the 40th division, 41st division, the 18th division, the 12th division, depending on which cat badge those new army units are with, they were Surreys or the Royal West Kent's or the Essex regiments, you know, that that drew from London's population or Middlesex, they end up all over the place. So you can't say to a particular new army formation that it was it was full of Londoners. So London divisions in that sense are unique and they're unmatched. So if you asked you know the man on the type of omnibus, you know, who are the representatives of London and the Great War, they'd almost certainly say a territorial. They wouldn't necessarily think of a necessary new army battalion, for example, because the the the the London Scottish and those well-known battalions are so I think pretty well known before the First World War and certainly through and after it.
SPEAKER_01Another driver for us with London Pride, which which was I think important, was that if you if you broaden out for a minute and talk about the territorial force generally across the country, although the balance has been redressed to a degree in recent years, the coverage of the territorials relative to the new army stroke pals battalions is still pretty sparse. Um notwithstanding, as you pointed out, Paul, that the the the territorial ballot uh battalions units can can be viewed almost as the original PALs if we want to go go down that route. Um so that was a another uh important uh consideration for us, I think. And the other thing is now switching back to London, the London Territorial Force influence. I think it's Charles who did some work on this, but by any reckoning, one in five or six, perhaps six of the temporary commissions during the Great War were two former London Territorial Force men. Um it's a it's a massive contribution in that sense.
SPEAKER_03And that that really reflects London's role as a centre of empire, the centre of many government departments in many industries had their intellectual sort of heart, if you like, in London, because it was the proximity to parliament, to finance, and those organisational tentacles that went all over the empire. So London would had what would have been the greatest concentration of what today we call knowledge workers in the world. So clerks, tens of thousands of clerks that populated the city offices of the great departments of state, um, and all the industries that were you know had headquarters in London or were lobbying. So you had this sort of intellectual capital that was in in London, and the the the clerks that fed all those industries, which he didn't have quite the same extent in other parts of the country where it might have been more agricultural, more industrial, and so on. Um, and those, of course, those educated men that that populated those industries were then the obvious you know uh pull for accruing officers later on as the war progressed.
SPEAKER_00But the the regiment on the eve of war was what, 26 individual battalions in terms of uh kind of a each one a kind of a mini regiment in its own right, and often locally kind of based, wasn't it? So these were these were based around communities or jobs like the post office rifles. So that kind of immediately made it stand out as an unusual formation. And do you think that kind of gave it a greater kind of presence in the mind of people within London because of the existence of all these different units?
SPEAKER_02I think so. I mean, I think if you look at some of the press coverage before the First World War, you can often see that there's they're involved in sporting activities, um, the London Scottish go on marches up into the highlands, and and and you know, they are very much an active part of life. You know, people see them walking down the streets, they may find them a bit of a bit of a joke, um, but you know, they are you know, in terms of the of the units, so it's 14 battalions, that's or sorry, 26 battalions, that's probably the strength of our modern current day army in terms of operational units, and plus you've got to think there's artillery units, there's um Royal Army Medical Corps units, army service corps units, um, electrical uh engineer units, and so there's a there's a much you know um greater diversity beyond just the infantry, which obviously I think all three of us have got connections with various infantry um battalions, but you you've got to see the London Regiment you know as a as a as a mass as well with those technical arms as well. So, you know, it's a phenomenal organization.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean I mean it it it leads to a sort of ultimate confusion in people's minds between regiment and battalions, of course. The the fact that the identities um are so strong that they they actually have individual, had individual cap badges, you know. Um but for the for right the first four battalions had the uh common one with the fusiliers badge, but uh but basically that uh they each had individual cap badges to to proclaim their identity, their their neighborhood, their their traditions to a degree, whether they were were class core or or otherwise.
SPEAKER_02And they they you know they drew a drew from across the like the social diversity of the city. If you think about some of the Royal Fusilier units, Richards uh referred to, the first uh to fourth, you know, um you've got the fourth Londons, they are in Hoxton, they draw their their recruits from probably the you know the bottom of the social pile, where you compare it with the second Londons, they have quotes the respectable working classes. Units like my grandfathers, the unit the Kensingtons, they draw men from working and middle class backgrounds, and then you've got elite um units like the London Scottish, the Queen's Westminster Rifles, uh the Civil Service Rifles, the artists, they're all very, very posh clubs, and they draw their men from the uh white-collar professionals, mainly public school educated. So it's got a tremendous diversity in ethnicity, in social groups, as well as occupations.
SPEAKER_00And I think some people are surprised to discover that in some of these battalions, the the kind of elite ones, you actually had to pay to join.
SPEAKER_02You certainly did. If you if you joined, yes, you joined London Scottish, you had to pay uh uh a guinea to register, and then it was a guinea membership per year, and you had to be of Scottish descent, or at least prove you could be of Scottish descent. I've got one one um account by a guy called T H Holmes who who gets wounded from the Kensingtons, and he he's in some unit, and there's uh there's an NCO who's got who puts on a fake Scottish accent even in 1918 to prove he's Scottish. You know, people do go to tremendous lengths um to do this.
SPEAKER_03That's quite a um in comparison with the London Irish, where the Patrick McGill, uh the novelist, I mean he famously wrote that he thought hit himself and the CA were the only two proper Irishmen in a battalion.
SPEAKER_02I mean it's it it it is it is amazing. And the London Rifle Brigade and the London Scottish have great rivalry and they they they compete to march in the fastest time from London to Brighton, and this is seen as a you know a great sort of um conflict, and and all the all the units play each other at sport, and often the London Scottish and a lot of the elite, more or socially elite units are much better at sport because A, they're physically bigger, and often a lot of them have done this at public school, and they often have the time to do that in the in their own sort of private times, and their drill halls have these amazing facilities, you know, um where they can practice some sports. So again, that you know the London regiment's a big, big part of people's social life um as well as you know the military life of the city.
SPEAKER_01Another factor we perhaps is worth mentioning is that although obviously we're primarily focused on a a geographical or metropolitan entity of of London, in one way or another, however we we we define that. The occupational side was a great pull. There are tales of guys who were uh there's a guy who worked in um the tax office, the in with the inland revenue or whatever it was called at the time, um, revenue commissioner um in Liverpool, who made it his business to travel to London to enlist in the civil service rifles. Um so the occupational pull is there as well, very strongly, very strongly.
SPEAKER_03And you you often find that men who came back from the empire and abroad, they would come into London to join up a class battalion or or join the intercourt of the Irish Rifles because they wanted to get a commission. So you'll find the you know the British community in Argentina, you know, provided dozens of men who who who joined the London territorials. And I I found a chap who came from Fiji and he ended up in the 21st Londoners taking a commission, which is probably the furthest, but he was one of the administrators out in Fiji. And it's so this this tentacles that that London had all over the empire, they were then reflected in who joined. And the Inter Court actually had the recruiting offices up at um uh at Liverpool. So getting people who were coming in off the boats from North North America or or anywhere else could join there if they wanted to go straight for commission.
SPEAKER_00So I guess the uh kind of history of the London Regiment and the London territorials generally, it's kind of a microcosm of the wider history of the of the First World War. And in terms of your the book that you you're just bringing out, London Pride, which is the first of I believe two volumes of study looking at this aspect of Great War history. And there is, and we'll put links to the book into the show notes for for the episode as well, so people can order it. And I've been reading it today, it's it's an absolutely excellent study, some really, really interesting articles in there. But I just wonder if you can kind of talk through how you've approached this and and what it is that you've looked at in this first volume and how that kind of different differs to the second volume that's coming up.
SPEAKER_01Well, the the the first if if if I start at the rear end there, the volume two uh will focus on the the operational um in particular, the the learning curve, so-called, how the territorials uh approach that, or the London territorials approach that, etc. Um, it will do that not only by reference to the Western Front and the trenches there, but but uh the various other theatres that uh the London units got to Italy, Gallipoli, Salonica, uh Palestine, India, um, and some elements of home defence with the Thames defences, etc., things like that. Um coming back to volume one, I mean I suppose in a in a broad chronological way, that's about inception, establishment uh following on from the passage of the 1908 Act and the the Haldane reforms, the establishment and operation of the uh uh territorial force associations, the city and county of London. It's looking at the the demographics, the routing of the units in in London's complex, indeed, in many respects, unique social and economic fabric. It's looking, as I think Charles has said a couple of times at London's status as the as the centre of the empire, finance and power, and indeed there is the very first chapter in it, is is not military at all, really. It's Edwardian London. It's looking and trying to capture the the flavour of Edwardian London before we move on. Um so it that's the the broad flow of of the volumes um in reverse order as I've presented them there. Ultimately it it produces what we hope and and and believe to be a an edited collection of of essays. Um you're talking overall about some 46 chapters, I think, in in 10 sections, that constitute some kind of case study of the London Territorial Forces evolution from 1908 through to 1921, uh, when it was uh disbanded and reconstituted under the Territorial Army and Militia Act of uh of that year. So it's if you like an expanded First World War from that point of view.
SPEAKER_03I suppose uh you know the way I position it is that the first chapter is really volume is really about context. There's this is sort of dichotomy between war and society, and you can't really separate the two. And actually, when you look at operational performance and factors like morale and cohesion and how troops perform, actually you need to look at where they come from. You know, what were the bonds that made them you know stick out pretty awful conditions in the trenches, for example. So we we've really tried to set the context in the first volume, which includes a few case studies of people like um Patrick McGill is one, um, Alexander Patterson, the Prisoner Reformer is another one. So men like them, what was the impact on them as an individual? And that all helped to set the scene really for volume two, which is is about how they performed in in the heat of battle ultimately. And then volume two wraps up with a section on of chapters looking at the legacy, so the lifelong legacies of of having served on these men.
SPEAKER_01We've we worked it through the I mean the the the books follow on from a conference that we ran um in June 2024 with the with the help and support of the WFA at uh Handel Street Drill Hall, which was uh 1913, I think that came into operation when it was the construction was completed. It was the the the home for the first London Royal Fusiliers and I think the first London Field Artillery Brigade as well. Correct. And that conference, well, you can actually see the venue often on the uh on the BBC in the thing that comes up between programs when they're just coming to get you you see the inside of that that drill hole. Um, but we had about a hundred attendees there for that. Um we did, I think, 20 contributor presentations through the day, plus a a keynote uh addressed by by Gary Sheffield, and that helped to to some kind of fashion shape things, help people refine things uh in in in terms of responses they got on the on the day. And uh so that's that's how the London Pride project has come to come together, the conference and and the two volumes. The the the title kind of leapt at us, I think, fairly fairly easily. Um it it comes in one uh respect from the quote of Philip Gibbs uh about the 47th Division at Lus in uh September 1915, when he said they were there to fight for the glory of the old town, they would show the stuff of London pride. Um, but it also happens to to chime quite well with the well, it is the common name of the saxophrag uh uh hardy flower, which uh I think grew up actually in a lot of World War II bomb sites in London. London and became to be almost an unofficial symbol of London's resilience, and also grows uh quite prof profusely, I think, uh, in uh the London cemetery at at Highwood on around the uh around the headstones there. So that's that's where we are with London Pride.
SPEAKER_00And bringing people together from a lot of different backgrounds to write a book with multiple contributors, I guess must have its own challenges. Um yes. Yes, yes, it did. It did.
SPEAKER_03It did, but it does. Having said that, I I think for many contributors it's it's much less daunting to write a chapter of about 10,000 words than it is to do a big volume. And there's certainly no way, even if the three of us had just been the only writers, there's no way we could have produced anything like the comprehensiveness and reach that we've actually got. So it would have taken, you know, we've we've all spent a lot of time the last 20, 30, 40 years researching this stuff. It would have needed several more lifetimes to to do what we're gonna have in these two volumes. So it it's got a lot of stuff out in a fairly short space of time that we would never have been able to do. And I suppose the headache is more being the editing and the herding sheep, uh herding cats, perhaps, is a better analogy um of it. And you know, editing as you know, presents its own own pleasures.
SPEAKER_01That's the that's the nature of the process, though. I mean, we're extremely we're extremely grateful to everybody that's that's uh that's chipped in, so to speak. Uh as Charles said, we'd have got nowhere on on our own, or uh being a lot. So I mean it it it's taken a fair while in any event. I mean, Tom and Charles, I think, first hatched this this idea back round about the the centenary in 2014, something like that. Um even but even before that, you may remember that.
SPEAKER_03It didn't yes, Charles Charles Messenger for the London branch was was one of the people that we talked to, and he he died uh a few years ago now. And yeah, so it it's been in the in the back of the mind maybe for plus or twenty years, I would have said.
SPEAKER_00And I remember us, Charles, going to uh a meeting of the territorial force study group many years ago, which uh brought brought together quite a lot of people interested in this subject.
SPEAKER_03Yes, yeah, and some of our contributors here, so it's sort of what it's morphed into, I suppose.
SPEAKER_01I think uh I mean it's it's it's got rolling probably in the last four or five years. That's when it's got seriously rolling, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah. And ri Rich's um should we say Rich's motivational techniques have been instrumental in keeping keeping us on the straight. Keep it on the straight narrow. Exactly. So yes, um, so that's been no, it's been really helpful. I haven't somebody pushing us along, otherwise we probably would have not got as far as we have. So, you know, it's it's been uh an interesting process, and I think you know, we're really pleased with it, and it it hopefully will do a lot of you know, fill a lot of gaps in people's knowledge because it's a resource book as well as a historical book. You know, it lists all the drill holes, it lists you know a lot of the units and and that sort of stuff. So, you know, a lot of that I know it's difficult, but it's that sort of information is really, really useful to have.
SPEAKER_00Because there isn't a single volume history of the London Regiment because of its complexities. So putting that kind of information is with in one volume, and I know it's had some very good maps in it as well, which is always uh very, very welcome to kind of piece together these these kind of things. I guess that's all part of the challenge in telling this story.
SPEAKER_03It it is, yes. I mean, there's a huge diversity of sources, and a lot that haven't really been tapped by historians. I mean, some of the local studies archives around London, for example, have got some very good material that's not really been looked at, but actually, if you look at those, you're searching somebody from a particular unit. There's lots of maps and photographs and that that are always worth exploring. London Metropolitan Archives, another one, the City Archives, as you'll you'll see quite a few of them referenced in various chapters that that people have used and and some new sources that haven't really been used to lost elsewhere. You'll you'll see. So hopefully it will give anyone who's researching a unit or uh an ancestor, they've got some pointers and where to go and where to start. In fact, we have a chapter by Chris Baker at the very end, which actually talks about research and and where to go, which hopefully will help steer people in the right direction.
SPEAKER_00And I guess history is about different voices. I think to me, looking at this book today, one of the strengths of it is that you've got a lot of different people looking at different elements, some kind of micro elements of the of this of this story, but some kind of wider ones as well. And I and I guess it gives people a kind of a much better in-depth look at what a regiment, what an organization like this was, and what its contribution was to the wider Great War.
SPEAKER_01Oh, indeed, we have we hope so. Um, I mean I I think the the rider to that is is the usual one. I suppose it's the classic Great War one, that there's still so much out there that isn't covered, notwithstanding that we've done four we we will be producing or editing and publishing 46 chapters on the subject. You know, there is so much more uh that that that we could have explored or or whatever. I mean, we could have gone on and on. But that's as I say, the story of much Great War research and study.
SPEAKER_00And I think uh, you know, kind of looking at the book, one of the things that you know I've seen in my own looking at the London Regiment is the way it kind of got broken up in that early period, going back to these kind of elite battalions, they were the ones who had a much greater number of men who'd signed up for the Imperial Service obligation. So they kind of get detached from their original formations and get sent overseas almost immediately, and the whole kind of I guess structure of the London territorial force changes straight away.
SPEAKER_03Yes, it does. Particularly after the units suffer their first real heavy losses. So, you know, some battalions opening the Battle of Luz, particularly first of July 1916 on the Somme and the major engagements on the Somme, and you find after that, you find that the first conscripts start to come into London battalions that are on the that have served on the Somme. So my grandfather's battalion in the 19th London's. You find that the the conscripts are starting to come in towards the end of that campaign. So the the replacements for the men killed at High Wood, you're starting to get conscripts in you know the derby scheme as well, but the character starts to change after that point. So the the battalions in 1917 and 1918 are definitely different. They're less London. So my grandfather's battalion, I reckon about 30% of them in a hundred days were actually Londoners. The rest came from all over the place, predominantly south east England, so the home counties, but they they they were London, London was the the biggest minority within it. So there was still some of the character left, but it was quite diluted from the the 1914-15 era.
SPEAKER_01Yes, but your your your your chapter on the 19th and and its its identity as it goes through and its composition as it goes through seems to back up the general proposition that many of the London Tf units did manage to preserve keep closer to their to their origins, perhaps, than than than other units, territorial or indeed otherwise, perhaps, but but but but certainly territorial units. So as you say, they were predominantly south-east, with a a fair minority, you said 30% there, I think, of of of Londoners, if not all albeit not people from some some bankers.
SPEAKER_03Yes, but that that was the main difference. I mean, before the First World War and the early people who sign up in September, October 1914, they come from within about a mile and a half of the drill wall because it's a very working-class battalion. Whereas it's a bit different from, say, the London Scottish, who tended to draw from commuters in the commuter towns and suburbs around London who had a much bigger attachment area in that sense. Um, so the 19th London certainly is no longer a St Pancras battalion. It may be London Battalion, yeah, but the the St Pancras corps is very few men left. There were you know probably about 50 by the end who who'd had you know provable St Pancras links who were still serving out there. And they were people like quartermasters and uh and and a few NCOs who'd managed to get through to the end unscathed.
SPEAKER_02No, I was I was just thinking, and certainly my experience in the Kensingtons is that it was probably about 60% or more or so. I mean, from my soldiers died analysis, and around 7% of the unit were pre-wed just joined up in 1914. So actually, a surprising number of people actually do survive. Yeah, I agree. A lot of them are in you know, senior NCO posts, etc. Um, you know, and and there is churn, but as people go through the trenches, they survive longer, uh up to 500 days. I make an average of people's service ending in 1918, which is very counterintuitive. People think you know, oh officers die in six weeks and it's all tragic, but really they last 10 months in 1918. Now, still a lot get killed and wounded, don't get me wrong. This is not to suggest it's it's uh it's a safe job. It's not, but it's it's it's a lot different than people think in those senses.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Bill Mitchinson, uh, if I recall, talking about the 47th Division, uh, would he said around the time Barter, the the commanding officer of 47th Division was de-gummed post-High Wood, he said at that time the 47th Division was still composed predominantly of Londoners. Now I I I'm taking that to I suppose if I take that literally, it means that the the the decimated numbers left immediately after Highwood and before any replacements came in, they might well be predominantly Londoners. But if if he's expanding it to include the drafts that came in after that and the boot to Wall and Court to actually fill it in. Um I think you're right, Rich.
SPEAKER_02They they we we have a lot of problems called all in the 56th division of cross-posting. So, you know, second London's get sent to the 13th Londons, and this causes outrage, even though they're Londoners, they don't have that regimental tradition. So it's that sort of mixing up, especially in the Cast Core units. You know, they get some people from the seventh middle sex and then not LRB because they're not middle class, you know, public school boys. And um, and so you know, yes, you're right. I mean, so being London, but then again, I find London is not a motivational factor in sense of identity. People don't have us, they're not fighting for London, um, certainly from my evidence, which is counterintuitive to what the Gibbs quote earlier. So, you know, it's again it's it's it's still so much to unravel.
SPEAKER_00And that moving around of guys within the London Regiment, you know, after a hundred years might seem obvious to replace casualties, but it created all kinds of problems when regiments were formed under specific, often quite rigid traditions. So you mentioned the LRB, I mean it's a rifle regiment, they would have called a bayonet a sword, and suddenly you know, some URC from the shiny seventh turns up with very bright buttons for a start um and doesn't know the difference. He thinks a sword is what an officer carries, not an ordinary soldier. I I guess these kind of little tiny details of service would have battered.
SPEAKER_01Yes, I mean that the the divisions were there. I mean, I mean I I think uh Maude, the historian of the 47th, probably went over the top when he might tried to maintain that there was a great level of homogeneity uh in the division until the very end of the war. I think that's just uh sort of blowing a trumpet that that really is isn't there to to to to be blown, to be honest. It may be that the ethos of of the the various battalions within the division to a degree remained, and to therefore perhaps that can be uh transposed to the whole or extrapolated to the whole of the 47th division. But um that's just a case of perhaps officers at the top helping to maintain that that culture and ethos rather than actually the the composition of of of the of the manpower itself being uh homogenous anymore.
SPEAKER_02I think I think you're right, Rich. I think there is something about that certainly in certain units you get an idea that the way we do things is this way, and so new men come in and they're in cul they're acculturated to those procedures, those traditions, those way of doing things, and that gets passed through groups, and I think that that's it's a very odd process. It's very sort of um unstudied, but it's a sociological way, and I I think there is that sort of sense of you know, this is the way we um we strip a Lewis gun or this is the way we conduct a raid, and it's very it's very difficult to put your ever put your finger on it. But yeah, I think that sort of sense of you know leadership, shared approach is passed through down through units, and some units are certainly better at than others at doing this. Um and whether that maintains throughout the period is difficult to know, really. But it's certainly something I'm I'm I'm seeing that there are certain units which seem to have this sort of tradition, um, certainly from what people say. Now, you know, it's I it's something I can't really prove, it's as an i it's an idea, but it seems to make sense in that in that way that you you do it the way you were taught how to do it.
SPEAKER_01Well, it seems to be a fairly strong message or tale that that's that's that's come back that that that ethos culture hung on in in quite a few units. And of course, to the extent it was down to the officers. I mean, it's a basic point, but I suppose we should mention it, many of those officers were regulars. They weren't weren't terriers themselves, they they were regulars, and yet they had chosen, despite perhaps some original disdain uh for the regular army for the territorials, although even that can be a little bit overblown, I think. But certainly as the war went on, those regulars that got close to the territorials realized the value of trying to inculcate and transmit the uh that culture and ethos and practices, etc.
SPEAKER_03I mean, sometimes you had regular officers coming in, you didn't quite get the territorial ethos and the discipline, and they had a different regular army view of discipline that the territorials didn't share. And I I think there probably were cases when uh uh perhaps uh rather overbearing regular commanding officer came in, and he was probably taken aside at some point by you know, if if if it was possible to have the conversation, and it wasn't always, but uh uh a territorial second in command who who who generally they would have the second in command would have been TA would have said said, sir, you might want to approach it like this if the relationship was was good enough. Uh there there certainly were cases when the the regular COs weren't popular for that reason, they just didn't quite get it, and they were trying to pose downs of discipline that didn't work with the the the territorial ethos.
SPEAKER_01Sure. Although you can flip that on its head because if we talk about the sort of early experiences of the uh TF units going over to uh the Western Front in particular, one of the first things that that had to happen in many cases, obviously, was that they uh 47th, I think, was the first uh London division over and the second TF division, only beaten by short head by the uh 46th. But uh they had to be placed with regular units that have been over there since uh 1914 to to to be mentored, tutored, whatever what familiarized with with the with the trench environment. And to the extent that those regular mentors balked at the the territorials, it tended to be at their officers rather than at their men. They were very concerned, uh, I think it's the second division uh that a lot of the 47th uh units were placed with, were concerned about the officers with insufficient supervision of working parties, limited curiosity about their men's conduct, performance of duties, etc., and a habit of bypassing NCOs and going straight to the troops. And uh I think uh one observation passed on not just the civil service rifles, but also the 17th, the Poplars, the 18th London Irish, and the 20th Black Heath battalions was the officers sit around and wait for a job to be done. That was the so uh at that point there was a you know the the it was too loose as far as the regulars was were concerned. Uh whatever the territorial officers were were later able to persuade the regulars to to accept, it certainly wasn't acceptable in the in those those early days in in uh early 1915.
SPEAKER_00And do you think that kind of reflected the the class and backgrounds that they came from, you know, because I guess the officers would have been the managerial class in peacetime, expecting the the workers beneath them to get jobs done. They're there to kind of oversee them, but not necessarily perhaps do to give direct orders to them, and they carried that into a culture within these territorial battalions that possibly set them apart from from regulars.
SPEAKER_01I think that's that's that's that's distinctly possible, yes. Yes, I think that's right. So they needed a bit of stiffening up to start with. But uh it it it it went um it went it went it went pretty well, and and there's some very positive about the troops. Um I mean this was the uh the shiny seventh's own history, but uh they were apparently, according to their own report, commended, their men were commended for their early veteran-like behaviour. And the guards apparently had um nothing but praise for the post office rifles men. So so the the troops themselves, for for perhaps they had some quirks and some unusual aspects to them, but they they seemed to have generated respect fairly quickly.
SPEAKER_00And as the war went on, I mean they became very much kind of at the tip of the spear of some of the the biggest and most important battles on the Western Front and indeed other theatres of war as well.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely, absolutely. And gained very impressive reputations. I mean, I think Paddy Griffith has the 47th and possibly the 56th divisions as arguably amongst the elite formations of the of the British Army by the end. One can debate that and and how one assesses it, etc. But uh clearly they were up there and they were up there because they were being called upon uh to be used in some, as you say, as spearheads in some in some tricky situations.
SPEAKER_02And certainly that is reflect reflected by a German document that comes around in January 18 where it ranks all these various units in the 47th, 56th are are in in the top in the top assault division or whatever uh classification they give. So I'm again as as Rich says, how do you assess this? We could be here all night trying to do it, but in terms of people's opinions, they do come up pretty uh effective, and the same with the 60th division as well.
SPEAKER_01Well, I I am a passionate advocate, as you can gather already, on this for the 47th division. I mean, they also got themselves into um uh a sort of didactic account that the uh General Staff uh issued in early 1918, uh called uh the story of a great fight, uh based around not just theirs, but I think 56th and forget the other division that was there, but three divisions, a ball on wood facing the German counter-attack. And it was it was issued not because it was a ripping good read, although it was, but actually to try and explain this is how you defend guys. This is this was done the right way. So yeah, they they i i in defense as well as attack, they they uh they serve well.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, 60 divisions are another one, it's uh not so well known because it didn't spend much time on the Western Front, but actually it had in the space of two and a half months in 1916, it was doing lots of trench raiding in in VV Ridge. It carried out 17 trench raids in the space of nine months, which is a very, very high rate, and it it was asked to go to Macedonia. Well, Bullfin, I think, had it had a good reputation, and it was asked to go to Macedonia, and then from there, Allenby requests Bullfin and the 60 Division to then go to Palestine. So the 60 Division leads on the capture of Jerusalem in in uh December 1917. Three Victoria Crosses are awarded in the Palestine campaign.
SPEAKER_00And that was the kind of genesis of of British Army desert warfare doctrine, really, wasn't it? The fight in Palestine and the units like the 60th Division that fought there kind of s paved the way, I guess, for for knowledge that might be applied a generation later.
SPEAKER_03Yes, it was. I mean thing the skills you need, navigating across a uh an empty desert at night takes a lot of skill, and they were learning some of that in Macedonia in a pretty safe environment where in Macedonia some of those reccu patrols were five miles out, five miles back, and they would do three battalion strong minor operations at night. They were sort of somewhat bigger than the raid, but involving elements of three battalions coordinated with with artillery to attack a village in the Hobza Valley, a Bulgarian outpost. So those kind of skills they learnt in a fairly safe environment in Macedonia. They then took over to Palestine. So the 6th Division is then instrumenting the two raids across the Jordan in 1917-1918. And some of the troops go all the way up to Damascus and up the coast of the Lebanon, um, up until the armistice uh uh and then after. And those troops don't some of them don't get back until to the UK until um about February 1920.
SPEAKER_00So, in terms of the work that you've done for for this book that's that's coming out, you're aware, of course, of your own research, but with the the material that was submitted, was there anything that surprised you anything you think kind of really does shine a new light on on the history of this aspect of the first world war? You can say all of it if you want.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I I I think yes, apart from from from our chapters, which were indeed brilliant. I think I think one of the chapters I I found very interesting was um John Davies one on the RFC, the Royal Flying Corps, and its connections with the London Regiment. I think that was really quite interesting. How many you know people have uh join the London Regiment and then go off and and become pilots or whatever. And so that was really quite interesting in that, and how many of these young boys want to join the 20 Minutes Club. Obviously, a black hatter reference there. And so that was that was very interesting. I, you know, and I think I think the other one, um, I think the you know, looking at the recruitment, looking at the social origins and the whole sort of structuring of the London Regiment into sort of various social categories. Obviously, Paul, you led a lot of that work yourself, was was fascinating. I think that really gives us a pretty strong methodology to move forward and you know, take take forward a look at the social changing units as they go through the war, because nobody's actually ever done that in any detail.
SPEAKER_03No. One that um it is coming out of volume two actually is uh Josh Bilton's chapter on conscripts, so he looks at them in terms of the conscripts coming in in 1918 and you know demolishes a lot of the myths around conscripts that they're unwilling, uh, and so on. And he he finds that these 18, 19-year-old lads, as most of them were coming in, actually, they're pretty enthusiastic, they want to get stuck in, and they do want to take on the ethos to the regiment they've gone into. And they're of course, as 18, 19-year-olds they're being led by junior NCOs who by and large about 24 or 25 on average, so men who really were veterans, and of course, many of those men had been out since 1914, certainly 1915 or early 16 at the uh uh um at the least, and maybe even 1914. So you've got this sort of hardcore veterans still late on in the war, and they're able to build trust very quickly with these conscripts. And I think he's sort of chapter his and his PhD, which is drawn from, you know, is upending some of that that sort of mythology that's built up around conscripts in the Great War.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but for me, some of the some of the the interesting thing with uh maybe sort of keel over in shock, but some of the interesting things were were say the the features on on concert parties and uh uh trench journals, uh things like that. The the the social communicative side of of things uh in the trenches and in the in the back areas, uh which I found uh very rewarding to read. That was excellent. So it's uh those are aspects that perhaps don't normally get get much treatment, so so it's good to to to have them on on board. Of course, the other challenge that the TF had to to overcome, and including the obviously the London TF, was was was the the whole problem of of equipment. It makes it almost more remarkable. They they they sort of went from it. It's not just about on enlistment at home, sort of no uniforms and marching up and down holding broom handles or or whatever. And it it's it's not that stuff. It it it's it it carries on into the fighting in in a fairly fundamental way. The War Office wasn't particularly keen on supplying shortly enfields when they when they became available to to the TF. So the the the London Scottish, for example, that uh who went out in September 14, I think, originally, and who fought with some credit at uh Messine White Sheet uh in at the back end of October 1914, actually were working still with long Lee Enfields that happened to, or supposedly have been converted to fire uh the shortly enfield ammo, but but uh not effectively. And they were they they only found that out actually when they got to the point of actually firing in in anger for the first time on the Eape Salient in uh, as I say, at the end of October 1914. And a sim similar problem occurred, I think, for a couple of the fusilier uh battalions, to the point they ended up certainly um borrowing from regulars who were wounded or whatever their short shortly enfields and allegedly stealing on some occasions from the regulars if they could actually uh work it that way. But so so rifles was was one thing that um persisted, pervaded into the uh into the actual war itself. And the other thing was was artillery. Certainly the 47th Division was still work working with effectively boar war artillery into early 1915. Well, I suppose they only went over in early 1915, but the problem hadn't been resolved while they were still at home, let's put it that way. They carried it to in into into the battlefield, into into festube and and whatever their first uh their first battle fire.
SPEAKER_03It was also a problem for second line battalions that were raised from late 1940 onwards. So they there weren't enough rifles to go around. They only had initially it was a mix of longly enfields and the Japanese Ascari rifle. I'm not sure that's quite the right pronunciation, but it's uh certainly similar. Uh so the Japanese rifle was being used. So you find these battalions that the the stock of rifles they have were being swapped out, or they they even got two types at once. So training for that and doing your right getting your range time in when you got it was was disruptive. I mean, then you get a new rifle, you've then got to retrain on it. So they had that before they the 60 division in in in this case, before they went out to France, they they eventually get the SMLE only a few weeks before they get out to France in in June 1916. So they have to then retrain and go down the range again and and and and get the range practice in it, it was disruptive.
SPEAKER_00I mean it's clear this first volume is gonna tell us a lot about the the history of the London territorials, and the next volume will take that story further into the battles not just on the Western Front, I guess, but to to other theaters of war as well. So we've got that to look forward to next.
SPEAKER_01Mm-hmm. We hope a summer this year. We hope uh we're marching forward purposefully with the with the work on volume two. A lot of it was sort of in hand, I suppose, once as we were sort of working up to the publication of volume one. So we're a little bit further ahead, and of course, we know a little bit more about the editing process uh with our publishers, Alion. So um we we've got reasonable hopes of mid-2026 for for volume two, and we're looking forward to that. It poses slight problems in terms of how you do a book launch when you've got two volumes like this, but I don't know whet whether whether you can do one properly, because it's sort of unless you do one for each volume, of course. But uh we'll we'll address that in due course.
SPEAKER_00Well I I'm sure people are going to find this first volume fascinating for the amount of detail in it and and quite a lot of human stories in there as well, which is really interesting to to see. So I mean thank you all gentlemen for joining me. Thank you, Charles, Richard, and and Tom. Uh I wish you well with the book. We'll put details of it onto the podcast website and also the show notes for this episode, and hopefully have one or all of you back again another day to uh chat about this subject further.
SPEAKER_02Thank you very much for having us, Paul. Cheers. My pleasure.
SPEAKER_00Thanks, guys. Thanks.
SPEAKER_02Cheers.
SPEAKER_00You've been listening to an episode of the Old Frontline with me, military historian Paul Reed. You can follow me on Twitter at Somcor, you can follow the podcast at OldFrontline Pod, check out the website at oldfrontline.co.uk where you'll find lots of podcast extras and photographs and links to books that are mentioned in the podcast. And if you feel like supporting us, you can go to our Patreon page, patreon.comslash oldfrontline, or support us on buyme a coffee at buymeacoffee.comslash oldfrontline. Links to all of these are on our websites. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you again soon.
