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Conversations for Leaders & Teams
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Conversations for Leaders & Teams
E72. Recognizing and Navigating the Dangers of Toxic Leadership and Followership with Dr. Riccardo Bodden
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Have you ever worked under a leader whose very presence seemed to darken the room? Dr. Rickardo Bodden joins us to shed light on the shadowy subject of toxic leadership and the havoc it wreaks on organizational morale. Our in-depth conversation with this accomplished leadership consultant and author takes us through the landscape of narcissistic behaviors, the silent crisis of toxic followership, and the devastating turnover rates that often cry out for intervention.
The narrative takes a sensitive turn as we confront the cultural chains of toxic masculinity and the concept of emotional incarceration. Dr. Bodden, drawing on his military background, shares the critical balance between competition and cooperation for team success. We're also taken on a journey to Turkey, where a soldier's battle against personal demons illustrates the stark reality of male suicide and the life-changing power of vulnerability and communication.
Finally, we challenge the perception of followership and underscore its significance in any successful organization; stressing the need for followers to hold leaders accountable, and bravely confront destructive behaviors. In navigating the toxic triangle that enables the rise of corrupt leaders, we touch upon the consequences of unchecked power and the need for self-awareness. Dr. Bodden leaves us with an empowering message: personal growth and moral fortitude are indispensable in cultivating a climate of honor and integrity in leadership. Join us for this compelling exploration into the heart of leadership dynamics and the pursuit of healthier, more supportive workplaces.
Connect with Dr. Bodden and buy his book @www.BoddenLeads.com
BelemLeaders–Your organization's trusted partner for leader and team development. Visit our website to connect: belemleaders.org or book a discovery call today! belem.as.me/discovery
Until next time, keep doing great things!
Understanding Toxic Leadership and Followership
Speaker 1Well, hey there and welcome to Conversations. Today we have Dr Ricardo Bonin, who serves as a leadership consultant, chief operating officer, mentor and associate pastor. Dr Bonin also served as a career officer in the US Air Force and several public relations and communications leadership roles. He is the author of two books Leadership in the Age of Narcissism God's Blueprint for Christian Leaders right here, and his newly released second book titled End the Reign of Pain Identifying and Treating Toxic Leadership, which is a book devoted to covering important aspects of leadership, often ignored and untaught. And that is such a true statement right there. Yes, yeah, and so welcome to the show. Happy to have you here today. Thank you for your service to our great country.
Speaker 2Thank you. It's an honor to be here and it's an honor to serve the country as well. But thank you so much.
Speaker 1Yeah, so we're going to get into it. And before we kind of unpack what that toxic leader and followership is, I know when people typically write books, it's out of a passion that they have and then they see the need also. So I'd love for you to let us know what is that passion around toxic leadership?
Speaker 2Well, I'll start from even a little bit before then. Leadership just attracts me. It's something that I actually would enjoy reading about, I would enjoy watching documentaries about. So I just enjoy the whole phenomenon of leadership and the good that it can do. But I found out that through my research and also through my life I was working with or for many a toxic leader, and toxic leaders can make your life an absolute living hell. So I found out that there is pain with being around toxic leaders.
Speaker 2So it is very painful. They make your life a living hell. I mean, when I was doing my research, I was reading about a gentleman that when he went home, his wife said either you're going to quit this job or I'm going to divorce you because you're slapping the cat kicking the dog. You know what I'm saying. You're yelling at me, you're screaming at the kids and we don't have a great relationship because you're so stressed out. Or you meet the 40-year-old guy who's otherwise healthy, or so you thought who's having a heart attack at 40 years old. Why? Because he's going through so much stress on the job.
Speaker 2So I found out that throughout my research and my love for leadership, I found out that there's a very small area of toxicity that a lot of people just don't talk about and nobody's holding anybody accountable. So that's what really attracted me, because of the pain I went through personally and the pain I see other people go through, and the fact that nobody's talking about these important issues that we see on TV all the time, that we read about in books, that we see in movies and in different TV shows, and nobody's talking about the elephant in the room. So that's the reason why I dedicated a lot of time to talk about this topic.
Speaker 1Well, thanks for helping me understand that passion and your why and why you do this and why you're writing about it.
Speaker 2Thank you.
Speaker 1I would like to stop right here a second. Okay, don't hear the buzz. I was hearing a buzzing. Were you hearing a buzzing on your end, or is it good? It seems to have gone away now, so that's good. That's okay, we will continue. That's why we have editing. That's right. Continue on, awesome. Well, let's talk about what is toxic leadership, but also what is that toxic followership? Because I've never heard it quite said that way, so I want to dig in here.
Speaker 2Right, exactly, and that's the reason why I wrote about it. So, number one toxic leadership. And there's many ways you could define a toxic leader, but from an academic perspective or for a simple definition, it's a person who's selfish or narcissistic so much so as to the destruction of other people. I'm going to say that again. You're so inward focused and you just care about yourself, what you're doing, your own agenda, so much it's destructive of other people around them. So inside, toxicity is narcissism. It's not the only thing, but it's narcissism. So, which means you're just focused on yourself, it's about your agenda. You have very little emotional intelligence for the good, because you're only using your emotional intelligence to actually be manipulative of other people, again because you want your own agenda. So that's what a toxic leader is.
Speaker 2So you may ask, as a secondary sub question well, how do you identify a toxic leader in an organization? I say number one a simple thing to do is just look at the turnover, look what's happening in the environment. So I know a friend who worked for an organization in Washington DC and when I met her she says, hey, I have this job, but there's like 70% turnover every two years. And I said, what? Red flag Right, huge red flag 70% in two years. How can you stay afloat like that?
Speaker 2And I found out that when I started digging in with more questions, she was saying that well, it's bad bosses, they don't care for the people. It's more than just benefits. It's more than just poor benefits and just not taking care of people on the HR side or the human resources side of the house. It's because that there is a terrible person that is running, or terrible people who are not taking care of the people or they're so focused on their own agenda they just start poo-pooing on everybody else and making their life a living hell, and then that's when people start jumping ship. So a really great way is when you walk into a situation and you see, oh my gosh, there's high turnover and this person's focused on their own agenda. They really don't care about me or what I need to do or my benefit to the organization, and then they just go on somewhere else.
Speaker 1Yeah, and I see a lot of that like even just locally. Here it seems like people are just a number and it's a revolving door of people coming through there. They get hired, they get fired, they get hired, they get hired, they get fired, they get hired, they get fired, or they leave they leave, they leave.
Speaker 2Yeah Right, and that's what's so dangerous, is that a lot of times people just don't know they're doing this.
Speaker 2Now, when I say that, people may say come on, ricardo, people know if they're toxic, people know if they're being a pain in the butt, people know that they're being narcissistic. To be honest with you, sometimes people just don't know. And that's the reason why in the book I talk about something that's known as 360 degree feedback, because there's a lot of times people just don't understand that they need to get feedback from other people to see how they're coming off. So just in case nobody, or just in case somebody doesn't know about 360 degree feedback, in layman's terms, it's when you have people give you feedback who are peers on your level, people who work for you or who are subordinate to you, and people who are above you, so your bosses, your supervisors, and also family members and friends. And once you get that feedback, you can realize oh, I guess I do yell at people a lot, oh, I guess I do treat people really bad.
Speaker 2Like I was listening to one leader and her daughter started telling her that every time you're tired, you start taking out your anger on everybody the staff and everybody and everybody's miserable because of you. So a lot of times people just don't know this stuff. But yeah, toxic leader to your point, kelly, is toxic leadership is everywhere and nobody's holding these people accountable, and I want to get back to that accountability word soon. But so that's what a toxic leader is.
Speaker 1You know, even with that 360 feedback, a leader has to be open enough to say, yes, I'm going to do that. And I'm just wondering, with a toxic leader I mean, yeah, they may not see it and so they're OK with it. They're like, yeah, let's do it. I want to hear the great feedback about myself, but the reality is some of them may know that they have some things to think on and work on, but may not want to even take part in a 360. Have you had that?
Speaker 2Yes, because they just don't want to know, or what is called motivated to avoid. I talk about it in the book. You're motivated not to see. Yes, I know I'm a prick and I'm arrogant and I'm this and that, but I'm motivated not to see because I'm getting my own agenda done. So, it's working for me. I call it doing bad to get good. So what?
Speaker 2I mean by that. You could have a corporate structure where you're trying to meet your quarterly goals. So you go into the office and you berate people, you throw staplers at people, you curse people out. You do all these things. You're narcissistic. You belittle people. You just ignore their needs. It doesn't matter, it's all about my agenda. But then you realize at the end of the quarter Kelly that hey, we made our goals. So then you realize at the end of the quarter Kelly that hey, we made our goals. So then you start thinking, well, it worked. It worked Right, exactly. So, even though I was wrong and nasty and mean and cruel, what I did worked. So I just keep doing it without realizing that that's not the way and that's not the purpose for leadership. You're supposed to help guide people in the right direction, to help accomplish goals for the organization, or our goals writ large. In other words, it's more than just a check. It's about our goals writ large, to help accomplish goals. And when you realize that people aren't open to feedback, that's dangerous in and of itself. So that's another reason why I wrote the book Kelly to your point is that it's to empower the leader, but it's also empower the emerging leader or the subordinate or the followership which I know we're going to get into soon to talk about. Wow, I didn't realize that this is what toxic leadership is. And now I have a tool to hold somebody accountable for their actions.
Speaker 2For example, I was talking to some young lady a few years ago and she was saying that a lot of people say that I'm a bully. A lot of people say that I'm a bully. And I said well, yes, you can come off like a bully. She was like how? So I said look at your body language. I said first of all, you're standing very close to me, so you're within my personal space number one. And I said and you're a large woman and you're standing like this, right and you talk very authoritatively. So I said I'm from the military, so that doesn't really bother me. So it doesn't bother me at all. So I said but for some people that don't have that background and that mindset, you're coming into a position where you don't know you are coming off like a bully because you're very authoritative and you're in somebody's face and you're making yourself large framed by doing something like this and you don't realize that that can actually turn a lot of people off because you're coming at them like you're a bully.
Speaker 1Right, wow, and it is up to you, to us, to help people understand that.
Speaker 2Yes, it is Exactly, but you got to be empowered with knowledge to help them understand hey, you're being very narcissistic, right, exactly, you're being very narcissistic right now.
Speaker 2You're being very rude and mean, and it's not to be catty or petty or to constantly poke at somebody, because nobody likes that, but it's to say when somebody's doing what I call leadership. Overreach is when you're reaching past somebody's personal boundaries and things that are appropriate in the office, just to get your agenda, because you don't care, and you're overreaching, you're overplaying your hand. That can get very narcissistic really soon and really fast because you're realizing the power that leaders have. And that's the reason why I'm so concerned about leaders and followers is that the power that is within a leader's hand can do so much beneficial or detrimental to an individual. And it's incumbent upon us to teach leaders good character, whether they're a Christian or not, whether they want to be religiously spiritual, biblically spiritual or not. To say, hey, that's immoral, that's inappropriate, that's incorrect. But you've got to be educated to know what you can bring to them to say, hey, that's not right.
Speaker 1Yeah, yeah, I know in your book you've got a couple chapters on masculinity and femininity, and can you unpack that and help us understand?
Speaker 2that. Yes, and just for the guys' sake, before I start talking about toxic masculinity, I did not come to beat up on the men, and that's what a lot is in society right now. It's huge on social media. You hear about toxic masculinity and it's somebody beating up on men. You shouldn't be masculine. You shouldn't be taking charge. You shouldn't be masculine. You shouldn't be taking charge. You shouldn't be doing this Now. I'm all for that in the right context and at the right time. Thank you Right.
Toxic Masculinity and Emotional Incarceration
Speaker 2So toxic masculinity is when you use your masculine traits that are God-given your ability to take charge, your ability to lead, your ability to be decisive, your ability to defend and protect. When you're doing it too much, it becomes toxic. For example, I was looking at a study from an Ivy League college that was looking at masculine men in organizations, and I write about this in the book, and what I found out is that a lot of times, when you are so masculine that you want to dominate everybody in the office, that's toxic. So, for example, we work at Walmart, so why are you trying to act like you're my Lord and Savior? Why are you trying to be dominant over me? You're just a shift supervisor. Yes, I'm going to listen to you because you're the shift supervisor and I'm going to stock the shelves and do whatever I need to, but when you're taking your God-given masculinity and wearing it like a king's coat to hammer everybody around you, you become toxic. So everything is right, kelly, within the right context of what it's meant, it becomes toxic. For example, if I took an old Ford not even a pickup truck like an old Ford Focus and then I started to hitch a trailer behind it, and then you're wondering why, in 30,000 miles, you have no transmission? Because a Ford Focus is not meant to pull 10,000 pounds 40,000 miles across the United States or what have you. It's not meant for that. You have tractor trailers and you have pickup trucks who are meant for that. So don't misuse something for what it's supposed to be, which is supposed to be a family car, a four-seater that's supposed to take families and take people and light stuff on simple commutes, and then you begin to abuse it. So again, toxic masculinity is your God-given traits that you are overplaying too much over. You're trying to be so competitive, you compete with everybody in the office to the point that you're stepping on them. That's wrong. That is wrong. So I understand competition in the office.
Speaker 2I came from the military perspective where we knew everybody in the office who was of the same rank was trying to compete for a certain award every quarter. We knew that, but I knew that it was within my best interest to help my coworker, even though it might mean that I might not win the best officer of the quarter. It meant that I still had to be honorable of the position that I'm in, to give them the information that they needed to be successful. Therein lies, is the team's success. So yeah, so toxic masculinity.
Speaker 2I wanted to talk about just what the definition is. So I found out that, yes, thank you. So I found out that men to get into the meat of this chapter is that we are so emotionally incarcerated. We are in prison because men don't talk. Men don't talk. You know suicide rates are up with men for various reasons. You know we're very successful when it comes to committing suicide. You know, against ourselves, we are very successful at doing major things that we could have easily gotten through if we had talked to somebody. Let me give you a perfect example.
Speaker 2I was in. This was a military example. So I was in the country of Turkey, and this was the first wave of forces coming out of Iraq. So this is the first wave of forces coming out. So I met a guy that was in the aircraft hangar waiting for airlift to go back to the United States. So they came from Iraq, came to Turkey for a day or two, wait for aircraft and then flew back to the United States. So I was beginning to talk to a guy and he had killed somebody. He said you know, I was at a checkpoint. Some insurgents came. What have you? I killed them. I killed some of them, they killed my friend.
Exploring Toxic Masculinity and Femininity
Speaker 2So when his friend got shot, the commander, if you will, of the situation told him to pick up his friend and put him in the back of the pickup truck. They drove to a medical tent. He took his friend out, they put him in the medical tent. His friend died and the boss said to him the commander said to him I need you to wash out the blood from the back of the vehicle. So he took, he washed out the blood. He's just operating on automatic at this time.
Speaker 2And then, when I'm talking to him about this, he took his glasses off and he said I'm sorry, give me a second. I thought I was strong. I thought I was strong and I said I said what did you? I said what is that supposed to mean? I said you think that you can't express emotion because you're a man that went through a traumatic event and you feel like you're being like effeminate right now because you're crying. He said exactly I said wrong, wrong, wrong.
Speaker 2And so what I'm impressing upon this chapter of toxic masculinity is to say men, we all go through problems, issues, concerns. We all have anxieties, just like women do. We can go through depression, just like women can. We have disappointments and anger and all the things that we apportion to women as being effeminate, which is wrong, because I say this emotions are equal opportunity employers, emotions are equal opportunity employers. So it doesn't matter that you're a man, you still have hurts in your heart. And I know it's hard to say that to men. I say men, you actually have a heart. Men, you actually have feelings. Men, you actually have emotions. So I want you to understand that you need to find some trusted friend or a counselor or a therapist to talk to about your problems and issues and not try to deal with everything in here or in here, because if you don't have the right way to process your your life, you can get yourself into some serious mental health issues. So was that? Was that cool? Was that too long?
Speaker 1I knew that was a long explanation. No, that's important.
Speaker 2Right Very important. So I talk about that Right right right, so I've talked about that in a fair amount of detail Now. With the women I was lighter, but it's the same.
Speaker 2So what I say about toxic femininity I say this is when you use your God-given feminine traits too long or too much, or you overplay your hand and, by the way, I didn't come up with these definitions. So when people read the chapters, they'll be like that's not femininity. Hey, according to the psychologists and the people who are in the nose and all the people that I've quoted who are mental health professionals and people who do this for their life's work, I'm telling you they said that feminine qualities are loving, patient, kind, understanding, supportive. That's what the research says. So if you're so supportive to the point that it's toxic now because it's detrimental against you, let me give you an example.
Speaker 2Some women say, well, I'm a wonderful wife. I'm a wonderful wife and I stick with my man no matter what, and I understand that narrative and that perspective. But when you think that your femininity is keeping you in a prison, when you're being abused, when you're being verbally abused, physically abused, sexually abused, and you say, no, it's a woman's duty to stand beside her man. And I understand that. And I love marriage and I support marriage and I want to see marriages prosper and marriages are the bedrock of society and healthy marriages is wonderful and it's great. But when you overplay your hand, where you're duped in your mind, you're seduced in your mind to say that, no matter what, I'm going to stay in this relationship or stay in this household, you're being abused, he's going to kill you, he's threatened to kill you and you're still thinking that it's okay for you to stay in this relationship. That, my dear, is toxic femininity. That is toxic femininity.
Speaker 2So I just gave a family example, or familial example. Now let me give you a work example, for example, I talk about in the book. If you're a woman and you're using your sexuality to actually climb the corporate ladder, that's toxic femininity. That's an aspect of it. Just like it's wrong for a man to do it, it's wrong for a woman to do it, and I say that in the book. Both times the medicine goes to both. The medicine goes to both sides. I'm not picking on any side, although I did go very deep on the men more so than the women. But I wanted to make sure that I added my voice to these two modern day and in some ways, controversial issues, to give a balanced voice with a biblical worldview, to show you what masculinity is, what masculinity should be, what's toxic masculinity. What femininity is what femininity should be and what's toxic femininity?
Speaker 1And I'm hoping that, as the listeners are hearing you, that not only is their interest piqued, but they're thinking about their workplace as well as their home life, and they're bringing to in their purview. Who is this, and is it me?
Speaker 2Right, right, exactly.
Speaker 2Yes, yes, that is one of the main things of the book and I I cover this with a self-reflecting questions all throughout the book is I always deal with the reader or the individual first. That's my methodology, that's my modus operandi. I always deal with individual first. So when people read the book, I don't want them thinking let's see how terrible my boss is, no, no, no, I need you to understand. Let me see how bad my mom is, let me see how bad my dad is. No, I need you to talk about you first. Everything starts with you first, because you lead from the inside out. So I love leadership books, but I'm tired of leadership books that tell you what to do all the time externally. This is how you run a meeting, this is how you win friends. This is how you do this. But is anybody talking to you about your character? Is anybody talking to you about the way that you think? Is anybody talking to you about self-corrective things that need to be done within you so you can be the better leader and hold people to a higher standard by you leading yourself first, and I'm big on that. Now I'm getting even more passionate because this is my leadership philosophy. My personal leadership philosophy is self-leadership is the basis for all leadership. I'm going to say that again Self-leadership is the basis for all leadership.
Speaker 2People say, well, what do you mean? You say, okay, would you hire a personal trainer that was overweight. So it works okay for the guys who are in the powerlifting, because a lot of those guys are just massive, high in fat and high in muscle. But when you go to the local gym you typically don't see a 400-pound guy who's a personal trainer. Because I'm thinking, if you don't even take enough self-respect for yourself and for your own knowledge to be in shape yourself, why am I listening to you? How many times have you gotten advice from a person who doesn't know how to raise their children? Who is trying to tell you how to raise your children? How many people are trying to give marital advice? And I'm like dude, you've been divorced three times. The only thing you can tell me to do is what not to do, because you can't give me any real relationship advice, because you can't keep a stable relationship.
Speaker 2So I always say guys, gals, everybody, lead yourself first and you become the standard upon which to not judge anybody else, but you become the standard upon which everybody should rise to. That's why I say self-leadership is the basis for all leadership. Character matters. Character is preeminent. I don't care if you're in a corporate space, I don't care if you're in the military, I don't care if you're a self-employed, I don't care if you're a stay-at-home parent. Character matters.
Speaker 2And you got to live this thing. You got to live right morals and that gives you more power to actually address somebody because you are actually living what you're saying. So you got to live the standard first and you got to be self-reflective first. So everything I do, everything in this book I was checking against myself. Okay, ricardo, are you toxic? Okay, are you narcissistic? Well, yeah, I kind of am in that area. So then I got to go back and find ways and repent and do all the things that I need to do to make sure I have a balanced view of myself when I'm amongst people and trying to lead people in the right direction.
Speaker 1Amen brother.
Speaker 2It's a lot, it's a heavy book, it's a heavy time, yes, so, and these are things I've amassed over the years of successes and failures which a lot of us don't like to talk about.
Speaker 1There always is, that's right. That's right, right. There is where the lessons are learned.
Speaker 2Yes, yes, a lot of us don't like to talk about the failures because we like to say that everything is going well. A lot of times things don't go well, like know, like, for instance, what makes many times. What makes a person a great counselor is because they're jacked up in their own life. What makes a person a great psychologist is because they're messed up in their own life. What makes a person a great mental health professional is because they've been messed up in their own life, you know. So it's incumbent upon me to actually always apply the medicine to me first.
Speaker 1That's right. Apply the medicine to me first.
Speaker 2Now can I jump back to something that you said previously? Now I want to make sure we cover the toxic follower.
Understanding Toxic Followers and Leadership
Speaker 2This is an area number one hardly anybody talks about followership. It's done, but very little, very little. There's very few books comparatively to leadership that there is to followership. It's done, but very little, very little. There's very few books comparatively to leadership that there is to followership. It's a very, very small area. So, number one I wanted to talk to you about what a follower is.
Speaker 2Number one when you hear somebody say to you you're a follower, that's not an insult. Organizations run by followers, organizations run by followers Followers get things done. It's not the C-suite, it's not the CEO, coo, cio, it's the people who are on the help desk, some of the people who are the most important people in the organization, who are taking customers' calls and inputting their orders and shipping them out and putting them in boxes. The followers are what make things happen. So, number one people use it as an insult, but it's not an insult. Well, you're just a follower. Yeah, we're all followers in some respects. I don't care what level of. I don't care if you are the CEO of a multi-billion dollar organization. If you go to your mom's house and she says, baby, I need you to go to the car and pick up the eggs that I left in the backseat, that CEO just followed just to pick up his mom's eggs.
Speaker 2So you're always going in and out of followership and leadership on any given day, multiple times. It just doesn't matter. Like, for instance, one time I was talking to my old boss and he was like, well, where's the folder? And I was like, oh, it's left. It's left in the room. He said I'll get it. He just followed something I just said. So, number one being a follower is not a bad thing. Number two there is place for followers because some people aren't meant to lead, some people don't have the gift of leadership, some people just don't have it, so, which is fine. So, number one a follower is somebody who typically is in an organizational structure, whether it's family or corporate or what have you, and they just do what's being asked of them, and typically they're doing what is asked of them from somebody in a higher position. That's what a follower is. All right. You become a toxic follower, and this is important. You become a toxic follower when you keep empowering toxic leaders. It's that simple. For example, if I know my boss is throwing the staper at people, berating people, cursing people out, and you're still working for him 10 years later, that's a problem.
Speaker 2Has anybody taken this guy to equal employment opportunity. Has anybody taken this guy to HR? Has anybody reported this guy? Let me give you a personal example. When I used to live in Georgia, I was dating a young lady every now and then and I found out that she was being sexually harassed by a guy in her job. Let's just call him Tom, just just for kicks it all. Right, his name is Tom. So she says Tom was groping her every now and then. And she found out, as a new employee in this office, that Tom was groping other women in the office too and sexually harassing them. So she said she plainly told him no, don't do that, stop that.
Speaker 2But then my next question was did you take this to HR? Did you report this to your supervisor? Did you get all the women together to say that, hey boss, this guy has been groping all of us over the past few, whatever months or years, especially since she was a new employee in that department? She found all this information out and I said you're not going to. I said do you want me to come by? Do you want me to address it? What do you want me to do to help you with this situation? And she refused to let anybody help her or to report it, that Kelly is a toxic follower. I know this may be hard to digest. I know there may be some people getting offended right now, but you empower this guy to keep sexually harassing women by not reporting him. So you are a toxic follower because you are empowering the guy doing terrible things. So and that burns me up, because a lot of times you cannot have a toxic leader in position long without toxic followers- but here's the thing.
Speaker 1There's so many times and I'm thinking of my own example of when, the first time that I worked for the military in a civilian role, Right. And it was also a civilian boss who I had and she not at me but at others was just yelling at the top of her lungs and I'm like I've never seen this before, correct. You know, when I was young and I had no idea, you know, coming from a very small town and then stepping into this when I moved away, was like is this how people leave?
Speaker 2Right.
Speaker 1No, and so it really took me. It took me time that I need to. Really I had to reflect on that. I actually had a conversation with her because it was like for me I was confused, I didn't know what to do, I didn't know why she was acting like that, and so I really feel as though followers, they have to be empowered first, right, in order to be able to do something about it that is going to be effective.
Speaker 2That is correct. Now, just to make sure, because I know some people are thinking as they're hearing. Well, you know, saying something could get you fired. It might mean that because there's consequences, just like there's consequences for their actions, there's consequences for your actions. But sometimes that's the right thing to do. Now I know people say what are you talking about? I have a family, I have this, I have that going on. I understand that there's consequences to everything. I understand you have responsibilities, but somebody and this is the word I've been holding back the whole time, kelly Say yes, somebody has to hold these people accountable. That's right.
Speaker 2You cannot continue to let wicked, nasty, narcissistic, vile, noxic, toxic, disreputable behavior go on and nobody say anything, because it's not going to just get better, because a lot of times we think, well, just let somebody else handle it. Well, somebody else after me will handle it. No, how about you handle it? So it may mean you need to go find another job. It may mean that you need to quit and, by the way, that is not a cowardice. That is not cowardice. So people say, well, you just couldn't hack it. That leader was hard, but you just couldn't hack it, so you just had to go somewhere else. That's not cowardice, that's actually wisdom, because there's some behaviors you don't need to submit yourself to, there's some behaviors you should not take. So that's why, in the place that I have worked, in the place that I work now, I just no, you're not going to do that, no, you're not going to, I'm not going to. You know there are certain ways you let people be people and you know everybody has their own personality bands.
Speaker 1But when it comes to the toxic, nasty, vile you know wicked perspectives.
Speaker 2No, you got to stop that behavior Exactly. It's not okay. So I'm glad you gave that example. Now what would have happened if people in the office would have went to that person to say, hey, you can't talk to us like this, this is unprofessional. I understand that voices get raised, especially about passionate topics. Like I'm from the military, I come from an environment where people yell at each other, so I'm not opposed to it. I have raised my voice. People have raised their voice to me, but it's been more so for motivating or constructive or forgiving very stern rebukes or corrections. Hey, if you pull this button, if you push this button, this thing is gonna happen, happen and somebody could die.
Speaker 2So, yeah, that's a reason to raise your voice because you're reinforcing a point and you're flagging a point to say don't do that. So I'm okay with that and I understand. I give people the ability to be people because everybody has their own different thresholds of patience and tolerance. But when it comes to happen so much that it becomes a toxic environment and you feel like you're walking on eggshells and you feel like you can't say anything, otherwise you're going to be hammered and you feel like you're under so much stress, it's time to say something. It's time to bring an HR, it's time to bring in a mediator, it's time to do something because we are in life, we are in relationships with people, professionally or personally, and we have to get along with one another. We have to talk, we have to share our feelings and we have to realize what's allowable and what's not allowable and we have to make sure we have professional boundaries.
Speaker 1Yeah, and your book helps people understand that and what the next steps are like what they can do as well as what a toxic leader can do for themselves.
Speaker 2Absolutely Right. So this book is high on identification. So I do spend a lot of time telling you things, so sometimes there's checklists, sometimes there's paragraphs and I'm telling you different things, but it's high on identification. But the redemptive field, the redemptive side, is to show you how to come out of it. So one way to come out of it is self-care and soul care. All right, that's another way. I'll get to that in a minute. But another way is to seek counseling and therapy. It's okay for counseling and therapy I've said this for years Do what you need to do to go to sleep better at night.
Speaker 2So some people think that you're weak. You're a weak man If you go see you know I don't want to tell another person my problems Well, why not? They're trained. Just like you take your car to a trained professional to run diagnostic tests, to do certain things. Just like you take your mouth to a dentist who's trained to work on teeth, just like you're.
Speaker 2Whatever it is, there's people who specialize to do it. You go to a barber Many of us have gone to barbers for years, ladies. You go to a hairdresser or a salon who's trained in that particular area. Sure, there's certain things you can do, but it's a lot better sometimes when somebody else comes and does it. So how about you go to a mental health professional or a counselor to say, hey, you're going through some issues, you need some psychotherapy and people are scared about the psycho part. So in the book I talk about the difference between counseling and therapy and what's the difference between the two. But I'm here to remove the guys of shame off it. No, there is where people we've go through all different things in life Exactly.
Speaker 2You are human beings, not human doings. You are human beings and you got to take the time to not only take care of this, which is your flesh, by working out or eating well, to take care of your body, but you also have to take care of your mind. So if you've gone through traumatic instances from your childhood or from your adulthood post-traumatic stress disorder from traumas and relationships and things of that nature you know there's a huge amount of ways you can run into a traumatic situation, like, for instance, you can have a great parent, you can have a great father or mother, and they do one thing wrong. They do one thing wrong and it will cause trauma in your mind for that particular area. Yeah, so what that means go to see a mental health professional, go to see a counselor, go to a pastor, go to a leadership consultant like yourself or like myself, who can help walk you through some professional areas. Or, when it comes to the more personal areas, you go to a mental health professional or a psychologist to help you work through those areas to get better, so you can get sleep, so you can stop shaking at night, so you can stop living in shame and in fear and in guilt, because a lot of us has done some wicked stuff in life, whether it's taking somebody's school money and being a bully, whether it's doing things that are racist when we were younger, whether it's doing all kinds of things that happen with mankind, flawed mankind. But you don't stay there.
Speaker 2The redemptive feel is that you can change, and I talk about in the book. You can repent. Know what I mean by repent? People say, okay, here comes the Bible thumpers again. No, it has nothing to do with repenting so much in the religious sense, where you're running to the altar, so to speak. If you come from that perspective and crying out to Jesus, that's great and that's wonderful and that does work. But there's also repent simply means changing your mind. So you know what I'm not going to do that Exactly.
Speaker 2I'm not going to do that anymore and I'm going to take steps and put in proper boundaries that when I start to get angry and I feel like I'm about to raise my hand and slam my hand on the desk and act all unprofessional or do something to scare my kids, I'm going to take a breather, I'm going to walk outside. I'm going to do things differently now to try to change the toxicity of what I'm going through and how I've been. So you can't repent, you can't change.
Speaker 1So what is the connection with the soul, with toxic tendencies in the soul? Talk about that a little bit.
Identifying Toxic Leadership Traits
Speaker 2Right. So the soul is the mind, your will and your emotions. There's different ways to dice it up, but your mind, your will, your emotions is the soul, the seat of your emotions. So a lot of what we do comes out of the soul. We think everything comes from our head because we're just so analytical and just so smart. Yes, but there's a lot of times we can realize that we react with emotions behind something, whether it's a football game and you're really passionate lacrosse, basketball, tennis, whatever have you or whether it's cooking. I love to see people who are passionate about doing what they do, whether it's working out, whether it's cooking, whether it's detailing their car, I love to see the passion. But when I see that they don't realize they're attaching emotion to intellect, they're attaching the emotional perspective to intellect to bring a full, concerted effort to work on that project or that cake or that pie, or to put together that model car or whatever they're doing, or to collect stamps, things of that nature. So people don't understand that you got to clean up the soul. You got to clean up the soul and remember the soul is multi-part. Or some people might say it's tripartite your mind, the soul, and remember the soul is multi-part, or some people might say it's tripartite. Your mind, the way that you think, your will, the seat of your emotions, your mind, your will and your emotions it all comes together in one ball, so to speak, so you can minister to different aspects of your life to get better in that area. So that's why people are toxic, really from their soul. They're toxic by the seat of their emotions. They are toxic by the way that they think corrupt thinking, all right. They are toxic by all the things that they do, Like, for instance. Let me give you an example.
Speaker 2In the book I talk about something called a toxic triangle. It's a toxic triangle and that's how toxic leaders come to power. And that's whether you're talking about a toxic leader in the country, or you're talking about a toxic leader in the country, or you're talking about a toxic leader who's actually working for Jiffy Lube. No harm or foul against people that work for Jiffy Lube. It's just an example. So whether you're in the corporate space or whether you're in a country space, toxic leaders come to power many times because of the toxic triangle. And part of that toxic triangle is a destructive leader.
Speaker 2A destructive leader is destructive because they just destroy people around them. They're narcissistic. They're typically they have I'm going to use an E word they are evil. There are people who work in corporate America who are evil. Yes, bernie Madoff, who took billions of dollars from people, was evil. Billions of dollars from people, was evil. These people who have come from some of our most accomplished and prestigious schools in the nation Ivy League schools in the nation, which I write about in the book brilliant minds have done some of the most wicked, vile things against people possible. How could they do that? Because they're destructive in their soul, in their heart and in their mind. They're destructive. They're so narcissistic they're blinded to the fact, or they choose to be blinded to say that no, it's about me, my money Like, for instance, I was in the military years ago and there was a president of a country when I was overseas who, literally, when the people started to rise up and started to have a coup to take their power back and appropriately so he actually sent out his security forces to start killing the people en masse.
Speaker 2This is on video. I'm not going to go ahead and speak to who and when, but this is on video. And he actually took the country's money, hopped on his private jet and left. That man is evil, so he was killing people. He fleeced the country. He took money from the country's coffers. So now the country, which is already having financial troubles, is now even more broke than they were before. And he went to go live somewhere else trying to find asylum, so he wouldn't get deported back or taken into custody by some kind of international law enforcement agency.
Speaker 2So you got to understand that you're destructive. So it comes from the soul. It comes from the way a person think. So when I see a person doing something evil or nasty repeatedly, I say what makes you think that way? Why do you do that? Who taught you to do that? What happened to you? What happened to you? And this is where a lot of toxicity comes from. A lot of toxicity comes from because you were wounded and because of that wound you developed a way of dealing with it or responding to it without healing the wound.
Speaker 1In an unhealthy way.
Speaker 2In a very unhealthy way, and that's the reason why you find people addicted to pornography, you find people addicted to alcohol. You find people addicted to violence, or they just don't care and they slap and push and they become toxic. And see how the circles now become toxic masculinity and toxic femininity. See how we come back full circle again. Now it's now energizing my masculinity where I have to be super tough with this. And you find people getting in fights over the dumbest things. Hey, he bumped my shoes so I'm going to pull out my gun and shoot you because you stepped in my shoes. You know we're getting into a fight in the store because you know you grabbed the last cake mix before I got there.
Speaker 2And now I'm trying to find some way to process this emotion. And now you know people who are rejected all of a sudden start stalking or start doing things. It's all this is coming from the soul. So that's why I spent so much time quoting mental health professionals, because it's not just what's coming out of your head, it's coming out of your soul. Did I answer that?
Speaker 1Okay Was that was that right. No, that was amazing. Yeah, right Again. We don't hear about that much either. You know when we're talking about leadership, but let me tell you what a great conversation that this has been. I just it's amazing that this topic is not talked about. It is untaught. We don't hear about it much when we're going through academia, but there are so many examples that we can point to because we see it and that pointer can also go, you know, inward, so we have to make sure that we're looking at that. I know that on the screen people can see if they're viewing this. It is at. Boddenleadscom is where people can connect with you, correct?
Speaker 2Is there anywhere else?
Speaker 1that you'd like to point them to.
Speaker 2That is the main focal point. Other things will come out later. But if they go to boddenleadscom, that's B-O-D-D-E-N-L-E-A-D-Scom.
Speaker 1And they can find your books there correct, Absolutely.
Speaker 2They can find my books there.
Speaker 1And other information about you.
Speaker 2Absolutely, they can find my bio there and you can also send me an email and yes, I actually do get those emails from that site. They come to me, so you don't have to worry about it going to some entering service.
Speaker 1They do come to me, that's right, you are very hands-on and I like that.
Speaker 2Thank you so much, so I would love to give you the last word before we leave. What do you have? I want to make sure I let people know that you have to spend time educating and working on yourself first. Let me go back to my premise that I said previously Self-leadership is the basis for all leadership. If you just took that one phrase and applied it to your life, it'll make you better in every single area. Because you have to realize you have to hold a financial standard first before you can check your children about it. You have to make sure you're moral and you're not legalistic, and you're kind and you're generous and you're a good leader first, before you can actually check or correct somebody else. So always remember, stay out of toxicity and you do those things by educating the mind, healing the heart. And remember self-leadership is the basis for all leadership.
Speaker 1Mic drop. Dr Ricardo Bonin, I want to thank you for being with us today. Amazing information and until next time. You keep doing great things and we'll see you soon thank you so much okay.