"Dying for Sex" - What the Hulu Series Teaches Us About Sexuality and Terminal Metastatic Cancer

Marianne and Jeanna Ford discuss the Hulu Series "Dying for Sex," a true story about a 42 year old woman with recurrent breast cancer. https://bit.ly/3FQcND3

Several patients told Dr. Ford she had to watch this. One patient told Jeanna she felt “seen and heard” as this was the first thing to represent what she was going through as a metastatic cancer patient.

Why did they find it so powerful? Listen to our interview with Jeanna as she and Marianne discuss the many facets of the terminal metastatic cancer journey that the show explores. 

In this Episode:

• 03:06 - Road Trip: Maine, Moxy Soda, and Burnt Trailer
• 05:54 - Recipe of the Week: Whoopie Pie
• 06:53 - Discussion of the Hulu Series "Dying for Sex" With Dr. Jeanna Ford
• 45:14 - Outro

What is “Dying for Sex” About?
The series is fairly closely follows the true story of Molly Kochan and her best friend Nikki Boyer. When Molly was diagnosed as terminal with Stage IV Metastatic Breast Cancer at age 42, she realizes for the first time that “life is short” is more than some stupid cliché. With this new ticking-clock hanging over her head Molly make a decision . . . to start living HER LIFE. She leaves her husband and goes on a quest, searching for life’s answers via a sexual journey of exploration. She juggles dozens of online suitors and brings kinks and fetishes into the real world, all while dealing with the ups and downs of her cancer treatment.

***Spoiler Alert - We Do Discuss The Whole Show***

What Does the Show Teach Us?
Jeanna and Marianne talk about a lot of points that the episodes cover, from the need for intimacy, end of life wishes, the impact of abuse, communication needs with healthcare team members, and perspectives of not just the person with cancer, but family members, friends, and caregivers.

Cancer healthcare teams, mothers, caregivers and terminal cancer patients may all find something they can learn from this series.

#cancer #dying #metastaticcancer #terminaldisease #terminalcancer #lastwishes #bucketlist #sex #sexuality #palliativecare #deathdoula #cancercaregiver #everyonedies #everydayisagift 

Halfway To Dead, A Midlife Spiritual Journey
Midlife is freaking hard. Let's flip the script.

Listen on: Apple Podcasts   Spotify

Chapters

• 0:00 Intro
• 3:06 Road Trip: Maine, Moxy Soda, and Burnt Trailer
• 5:54 Recipe of the Week: Whoopie Pie
• 6:53 Discussion of the Hulu Series “Dying for Sex” With Dr. Jeanna Ford
• 10:03 [Ad] Halfway To Dead, A Midlife Spiritual Journey
• 10:40 (Cont.) Discussion of the Hulu Series “Dying for Sex” With Dr. Jeanna Ford
• 45:50 Outro

Transcript

Hello and welcome to Everyone Dies, the podcast where we talk about serious illness, dying, death, and bereavement. I'm Marianne Matzo, a nurse practitioner, and I use my experience from working as a nurse for 47 years to help answer your questions about what happens at the end of life. And I'm Charlie Navarette, an actor in New York City, and here to offer an every-person viewpoint to our podcast.

We're both here because we believe that the more you know, the better prepared you are to make difficult decisions before a crisis hits. Also, this podcast does not provide medical nor legal advice. Please listen to the complete disclosure at the end of the recording.

Welcome to this week's show. We're so glad to have you join Charlie and me for the next hour as we continue with our series titled Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Cancer, But Didn't Have Anyone to Ask, with a conversation about the Hulu series, Dying for Sex. This podcast is a combination of education and entertainment.

Edutainment, if we're going to make up words, delivered in three halves. Our main topic's in the second half, so you can fast forward to that spin-free zone if you'd like. In the first half, Charlie has the recipe of the week and a report about Moxie, because he's got Moxie.

And in the second and third half, we're joined by our favorite clinical nurse specialist, Dr. Gina Ford, to discuss love and desire at the end of life through the story told in Dying for Sex. Hi, Charlie. Hi, Marianne.

What's new? I just got back from Michigan. What part of Michigan? Oh, I went home to Lincoln Park, and then I went to Southgate, to my brother's house. And then I went to Monroe, to my niece's house.

And then I went to Detroit to see my friends and eat. Have you been to Greektown, Lincoln? No. That's funny you ask.

Someone just asked me that. No, not in a while. Not in a while.

The only original restaurant left is Pegasus. All the originals are gone. We did go to Mexican Village, which thankfully was still there and still tasted like it was supposed to.

Oh, Kowalski. Or Kowalski. Oh, right.

I forgot, right. Planta's right there. It might be the last Polish neighborhood there, but really just down to earth, really good basic Polish food.

But yeah, so I went home, ate a lot of food. And you had White Castles. Yeah, I had White Castles.

I had David take a picture, maybe Sandy will post it, of me having my first White Castle in like 10 years. It's been that long? And speaking of road trips to White Castle, though for me it's a subway ride, we are heading out on the road to Maine this week as we continue the Everyone Dies road trip. Maine is called the Pine Tree State and is the lobster capital of the United States and home of Stephen King.

It is the state that gave us moxie, a unique and polarizing soft drink that originated in Maine. Its history is almost as distinct as its flavors, and the initial promises of the drink led to the noun moxie, meaning 1. energy, pep, as in woke up full of moxie, and 2. courage, determination. It was created in 1876 by Dr. Augustine Thompson, a Maine native, as a moxie nerve food.

In 1884, it was sold in carbonated form and merchandised as an invigorating drink, which claimed to endow the drinker with spunk. I hate spunk. Do you remember that? Yes.

What's it from? From Mary Tyler Moore. Exactly. Mr. Grant.

You got spunk. Oh, thank you. I hate spunk.

Yes. Moxie is known for its unique bittersweet flavor, featuring gentian root extract, and has a loyal fan base, especially in Maine. But wait, there's more.

If you really want the full Monty Maine experience, try a Burt Trailer, which is a mix of two classic Maine drinks, moxie and Allen's Coffee Brandy. According to legend, fishermen, in their search for warmth on cold mornings, began adding Allen's Coffee Brandy to their coffee, a tradition that soon spread across the region. This coffee brandy later found its way into bars, where it is commonly served in a pint glass with an equal part of milk, affectionately known as a fat ass in a glass.

But why stop there? Mainers took their fondness for Allen's Coffee Brandy a step further by creatively mixing it with another iconic yet divisive local beverage, moxie, the Burt Trailer. The result of this Maine-inspired collaboration is a simple yet surprisingly delicious cocktail. Combine one part Allen's Coffee Brandy with two parts moxie and voila! You have a uniquely Maine experience in a glass.

The marriage of the brandy's rich coffee flavor with the distinct taste of Maine moxie that will warm the cockles of the coldest heart. The recipe this week from Maine is Whoopie Pie, which is the official state treat. Two soft chocolate cakes, sandwich a creamy, sweet filling that melts in your mouth, a delightful addition to your next funeral lunch.

Bon Appetit! Please go to our webpage for this week's recipe for Whoopie Pie and additional resources for this program. Everyone Dies is offered at no cost but is not free to produce. Can we count on you to contribute? Your tax-deductible gift will go directly to supporting our non-profit journalism so that we can remain accessible to everyone.

You can also donate at www.everyonedies.org. That's every, the number one, dies.org. Or at our site on Patreon under Everyone Dies. Marianne. Thank you, Charlie.

Hello, I'm with Dr. Gina Ford, a clinical nurse specialist from the Department of Internal Medicine at the University of New Mexico Health System in Albuquerque. Today, Gina and I are discussing the Hulu series, Dying for Sex. Now, if you haven't seen it, and you listened to our talk, then don't get mad at us because we're not holding anything back.

So, if you want to know how it ends, I guess, really, I guess we could just tell you that. But, you know, if you don't want to know any of the answers, hold on to this recording and watch the series and then come back. So, what this series is about is about a woman named Molly Cochan who was diagnosed with stage four metastatic cancer at the age of 42.

And she realizes that for the first time that life is short is really more than just a cliche. That's really true. So, with this new ticking clock, she makes a decision to start living her life.

She leaves her husband and goes on a quest searching for life's answers via a sexual journey of exploration. She juggles dozens of online suitors, explores kinks and fetishes. And all the while, she's dealing with the ups and downs of her cancer treatment.

She starts a podcast, Dying for Sex, with her best friend Nikki Boyer and writes a memoir, Screw Cancer, Becoming Whole. Cochan dies at age 45 years old in 2019. And in 2020, both her memoir and her podcast were released.

So, Gina, welcome. Thank you. Thank you for having me.

It's always fun to come on and chat. And I feel like today we're actually going to talk about something a little risqué and really fun. Well, we can only hope.

We can only hope. So, just like starting with an overall view, what was your thought about this series? Well, honestly, I had never even heard of it. And two of my patients in one day who could not have been more different from each other asked me.

And they were like, have you heard of this? And I said, no, you know, I hadn't. And they're like, you have to watch this. And one of my patients, one of them was an elderly lady.

And she was like, you have to see it. She was like, it's one of the best things I've ever seen. And then the other one, she's a bit younger.

And she said, you've got to watch it, Gina. And she was like, I finally feel like there's something out there that represents us and what we're going through. And she goes, I feel seen and heard.

And I was like, OK. And she goes, now, I want this watch before I see you next month. So I had a homework assignment.

I was like, oh, God. OK. Whoa.

Hey, pod friends. Jen from the Halfway to Dead podcast here. Quick break for some real talk.

Midlife is freaking hard. Am I right? Are you ready to ditch the BS, flip the script, and finish this life strong? Of course you are. Join me to listen to real conversations that don't shy away from the hard, messy stuff.

And yeah, we get a little woo-woo along the way. Let's hit the road on this midlife spiritual journey together. Halfway to Dead, served up with humor and heart.

Listen now wherever you get your podcasts. I do. And so I listened.

And then you mentioned it to me. And so I really didn't know what to expect going into this. But I have to say, I was a bit biased going in because I love, love, love Jenny Slate, who plays her friend slash caregiver Nikki.

I've been a huge fan of hers. And so I was already kind of kind of hooked on this. And it was it was funny because I told my husband about it.

He was like, OK, I'm going to watch this. But as it progressed, he's like, oh, my God, this is like watching your job. Why are you watching this? And he never finished it, you know, typical.

But I really, I really, really loved it. And I thought there was some very realistic things. And then I thought there were some things that weren't realistic.

But I loved I really enjoyed it. There was the duality of it. There was just so much of it that I thought it hit on.

And it was very accurate. I think, you know, I think that we could probably have a podcast on every episode and really dive into that. And I think you're right, because it's hard to kind of take that long view of it, because with each episode, there's there's another thing to to deal with.

There's another thing to explore. And she becomes freer with her body and exploring herself and what she wants and kind of throwing off the restraints of what society expects of her and actually exploring, well, what do I want? But with the duality of while she is getting sicker. And so you're right.

I mean, it was. It just kept going more in depth. So when it starts, you know, she's had cancer before and treatment, breast cancer treatment before.

And so in some sense, there's always, you know, for people who've gone through cancer and gone through cancer treatment, that sense of, well, is the other shoe going to drop? Is it going to come back? And at the very beginning, she talks about, you know, with her husband, you know, that it's back and that he's very much the organized caretaker. And, you know, here's here's what we're going to do and here's how we're going to do it. And he goes directly into caretaker mold.

And in the course of that, and I've seen this a lot in my oncology work with people, especially when I was seeing people for sexual health issues. When he goes into that caretaker mode, he stops being her lover and stops being sort of the husband partner. Did you notice? Yeah, I do see that where people stop looking at them as their spouse, their beloved, and they look at them more as this is my patient.

This is somebody I have to take care of, you know, and it's almost task oriented. And it's really, I think that I try to give people the benefit. I think it comes from a good place, you know, good intentions.

They're doing the best that they can, you know, and trying to care for their loved one. But it can really be devastating and hurtful to the person that's actually going through, you know, all of the physical changes and really needing to still feel loved and feel like a person, a spouse and have that intimacy. And so I think that this happens all too often.

And, you know, when he made the comment about, I don't remember the exact phrase about it being, you know, disgusting or something, you know, whatever it was, whenever she, you know, was trying to have sex with him. And that really kind of struck her. You know, I think that that happens probably more than people realize whenever, you know, they're sick.

And, you know, I think that there's still kind of this veil of silence that goes around that. And we don't encourage people to talk about it as much as they should, because, you know, I think that that weighs really heavily on a lot of patients. And, you know, I read somewhere some time ago, probably in some ridiculous magazine that like if, you know, sex is healthy in your relationship, it's only like 20 percent of your relationship.

But if it's bad, then it can take out like 90 percent of all of your arguments, you know, it's like all you focus on. And so that kind of reminded me, you know, of what Molly was going through with her husband. And, you know, and sometimes patients, you know, when I was doing my research, they would say, well, you know, I shouldn't be focusing on this.

Like having your sexual health needs met and that kind of marital intimacy that they had. And then somehow, and that's how they describe it, somehow with their illness, somehow with their cancer, the cancer takes that away from them. And rather than, you know, say, well, I want this back.

A lot of times people are so busy with chemo and the radiation and all the things that we do to try to manage or slow the progression of the cancer that they think, you know, I don't have the energy to fight for this. So I just have to do what I have to do to try to make this cancer go away. Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And as if they, you know, don't have enough, you know, losses and changes, you know, that's something else.

And it doesn't have to be that way. Right. And I mean, how often do the oncologists ever even ask about it or tell them it doesn't have to be this way? Right.

I just don't think. Right. I think often there's just not very many people in most cultures or state societies, what have you, that just feel comfortable talking about it and kind of normalizing it.

And so I think that that's why, you know, what she was doing was viewed as so risqué or taboo. But it really shouldn't be because she was finally doing something for herself, you know. And I think that, you know, I wish that it wouldn't take, you know, when we wait until we realize, OK, you know, my time here is limited.

OK, what do I really want? You know, I think that's one of the messages that we're supposed to get is, you know, let's not wait until then. Let's explore what we really want. And pursue that.

And there's nothing wrong with that. And it kind of normalizes that. And I think also that.

Is there my observation that people feel like they have their whole life in front of them? And so it's easy to say, well, yeah, that's something I want to do, but I'll put it off until X or I'll put it off until Y. And it's not, for some people, it's not until they get a cancer diagnosis where they say, I don't have any more time to put this off. I'm going to do it. I need to do this.

Right. Right. Absolutely.

Absolutely. And one of the underlying things here is that when Molly was young, she was sexually abused by her mom's boyfriend. And as a result, she's had not exactly a free experience sexually as she became an adult.

And she talks about she never had an orgasm, that she doesn't go off on this journey for, you know, for the heck of it. She goes off because there's been this thing that she feels has been, she's been deprived of. Any thoughts about that? Yeah.

And, you know, that was something I actually met back with one of my patients and I asked her, you know, I told her, I said, well, I watched it. And, you know, so we talked about it and I said, you know, you told me that you felt seen and heard. So what part of it, you know, was it that you liked about it? And she just said it was so real.

And she mentioned that part and she said, you know, I really liked the part about, you know, what she experienced as a child. And she goes, that resonated with me. And then what went on between her and her mom, the fighting and the guilt.

And she said then at the end, her mom needing, you know, to be there and her forgiving her mom. And she said, you know, but she said it was just really realistic. And I thought that that was that was interesting.

And she said it was really healing seeing her go through that journey of not only having those, you know, PTSD flashbacks of the man that had, you know, molested her, assaulted her. But then also able to overcome that and, you know, get to the point where she was able to have the orgasm. But then, you know, ultimately forgive her mom for essentially what had happened.

And my patient even said that the other part that I really liked was, you know, when her mom was telling people about Molly's cancer. And Molly got really upset going, you can't tell people this. And she said, you know, that she had experienced something similar with that.

And she said, you know, I got really upset when my family was telling people because I didn't want anyone to know. And she said, I'm the one going through this. I'm the one.

And she goes, but it helped me see, well, even though I'm physically going through this, other people need support as well. And she goes, so it really helped me see the other side. And so, again, every episode, I mean, there's just so much.

And it did a really good job of showing not only what Molly was feeling, but what her family was feeling, what the caregiver was feeling. And so they did a really good job with the duality of the journey. So speaking of the caregivers, so there's her oncologist who is very interesting in his approach.

Do you want to talk about that? I thought that that was probably out of the, I think that the one that I struggled the most with was the palliative care part. Because I was like, yeah, that's not really an accurate representation of us. You know, it's like, so my eye twitched a little watching that.

I was like, okay, I just got to let that go. But I thought the oncologist was probably the most accurate representation of what happens. But I loved her interaction with him and kind of, you know, having him, you know, slow down and look at me and sit down.

And I feel like he learned a lot from her. And it really showed that as their relationship evolved. And I thought that was really, really interesting.

And she was so good at, with her friend's help, advocating for herself. And, you know, I think that had she still been with her husband, it was pretty clear that the oncologist and the husband were making all the decisions and she had no voice. And, you know, so she was able to kind of find her voice and say what was important to her, what she wanted to do.

And even talk about, you know, well, before I do this, you know, I'm trying to have, I mean, she even shared what she was doing with him. I'm trying to have an orgasm. And, you know, even though he looked uncomfortable, I mean, he listened.

So I thought that was great, you know, showing their relationship. And I liked how at the very end when they had their little party and he actually participated. Yes.

So you could see his growth with her. I don't know if it will translate to his other patients, if he'll be more approachable. I would like to think that it would.

You know, as clinicians, I think that we learn from all of our patients and hopefully we try to get better with each experience and, you know, what we should do and what we should not do and carry that forward. So in my mind, he's doing better with everyone. At least that's what I tell myself.

Well, you know, it's entirely possible that he is. And it's entirely possible, too, that he learned that she wasn't going to take no for an answer. So he maybe learned that he had to give a little bit of himself in the course of their relationship.

You know, maybe if somebody else demanded it, he might, you know, give it a lot quicker. But, you know, I can see I can see that I could be wanting him to have made that change. And it's entirely possible that he did.

And it's only conjecture. And, you know, which way that goes in terms of the other palliative care people. There's she has a palliative care counselor who kind of helps her along the road.

And then at the end, she has a hospice nurse doing the hospice admission. And the hospice nurse who's doing the hospice admission is. So gung ho positive about it's almost like the joys of dying, you know, and I watched that and I thought.

Well, I don't know that I know anybody who's that enthused and happy in that. I mean, there are those who like the job, but I felt like a little put off by her over the top enthusiasm. What was what was your take on her? You know, you know, I feel like.

It was very realistic when she, you know, kind of burst in the room to talk about hospice before he did. And I was like, yeah, that happens, unfortunately, all too much. But when she was talking about dying, how excited she was, my first thought was like, oh, God, I don't do that.

Do I? For years, I was like, no, but I was put off by that. And then, you know, there was a lot about that that I felt like I did not think that that was as. You know, it wasn't terribly realistic.

And but I do agree with you that that was kind of. But, you know, put off by that, and I think they tried to show that, you know, her friends and family were kind of put off by that as well. I do think the education piece was good.

However, it was the delivery of it really kind of failed. And, you know, and I posted a clip from that and some of the nursing. You know, Facebook groups and.

People overwhelmingly, the nurses overwhelmingly were very enthused that she that nurse took that approach. And what but one person wrote. It's fine to be enthusiastic if it's your death, but not somebody else.

Well, actually, I can see I can see that point. I mean, if you. I mean, all the hospice admissions.

I've ever done. Nobody's been really so thrilled to death. Put an end to that.

I was there. They're not as excited. No, I agree.

Another part that I felt like was really very realistic was the. The support groups and I've had many patients tell me that, that they really struggled with support groups and that, you know, have even had somebody tell that they really didn't want them there because, you know, they felt like it was too depressing, you know, and that they weren't doing well. And so, you know, I think some support groups are great.

But then others, you know, her experience that they showed was very realistic where she was trying to go to one, you know, and she was like, well, this one fits me more, but they didn't want her there because she was too sick. And, you know, she felt pretty spurned by by that group. And I thought that happens, I think, more than people people realize.

And so, you know, I think that it showed all types of reactions from the hospice nurse, the hospice nurse being very excited to her going into, you know, a support group trying to find, you know, some help there and then saying, you know, you know, you're not really this isn't the right group for you, you know, and so it's just every type of reaction that you can fathom. So, at the end, she, and was that like an inpatient hospice? Yeah, I guess that's what it medicalized that I, do you know what I mean? Yeah, and you know, that was another part I was like, oh, this is not Canada, we don't do as well for our patients like they do. So, it looks like that.

I think that's what they were trying to say is that it was an inpatient hospice and she could stay there as long as she wanted, which we don't we don't have here. But yes, that's what it looked like that was. But then, if that being the case, then they were kind of not wanting her boyfriend to stay there.

Because in our, in our inpatient hospices make a lot of accommodations for whatever it is that people want. Well, she was in the room with her boyfriend when she had, last time she was with him and had sex and had her orgasm, she was still on the hospital side. That was before she changed over to hospice.

And my patient said that that was her favorite line that, you know, I want to buy a puppy with you, I don't want to die with you. And that's why he left and wasn't there when she died. Okay.

I guess I maybe, because we binged this, we got to a point where we said, okay, we're just going to keep going because we didn't want to stop. So, maybe in my tiredness, I missed the, where she wasn't in the inpatient side anymore. Yeah, no, they transferred her over there.

And it looked like it was just a separate wing of the hospital. I see. I see.

So, are there other parts of the series that struck you or think that you think that would be interesting for the, for our listeners to know about? I, you know, I just, I think it's one of those that I feel like each person in there could have their own book. You know, I think that Molly, the main character could have her own, I mean, well, she obviously does have her own book. And then her best friend, you know, who is kind of the fly by the seat of her pants, you know, actress, caregiver, Nikki could have her own.

And the story, you know, the series did such a good job showing, you know, how Nikki really tried to, and she did step up to the plate and take care of her and how she was, you know, grieving and, you know, lost some of her roles as an actress because she was taking care of her. And then I thought a really powerful theme was when she went back to the first doctor who dismissed Molly's symptoms and, you know, basically brushed her off saying, this is nothing. And, you know, that's why she was diagnosed so late.

And, you know, Nikki was out in the park, you know, kind of screaming that she had to forgive him saying, I forgive you. I have to forgive you. And I thought that was pretty powerful.

And then, you know, just the whole relationship between her and her mother. But I just loved the relationship between Molly and her neighbor. You know, I don't think I ever even gave him a name, just the neighbor.

And then exploring, you know, what they were interested in sexually and what was okay and not judging each other and just having the fun that they wanted. And that was what she needed. And, you know, ultimately fulfilling her goal of having her first and only orgasm before she died.

And if she had stayed where she was in her marriage and in her life, where she had been for so long, she never would have had that. And I think her death would have been a different kind of tragedy. As opposed to the fact that this young, vibrant woman dies.

But, you know, at least she kind of took the bull by the horns and said, what's left is mine. And I'm going to have what I need and what I want. Right.

I found a quote Molly's real-life best friend Boyer said in an interview. She said, to quote Molly, I feel like for her, sex was an antithesis to death. It made her feel plugged into her body, made her feel alive.

It reminded her that this body that was failing her and fighting hard to stay alive could also experience deep pleasure and erotic feelings at the same time. And I just thought that that was really magical. And in many ways, facing the end of her life was the catalyst for her fully healing decades of old wounds.

And I would often talk with patients about that feeling of their body in their cancer becomes a source of pain and disappointment. And they feel blindsided by their body growing cancer. And if they're open to it, I talk with them about, but your body can also be a source of pleasure and that you can still experience pleasure with your body.

It doesn't always have to be this disappointing, painful thing. Is that a discussion that you've ever had with patients or have they ever had that with you? Yes. And I think that over the years, we have certainly gotten better about talking about this and normalizing it.

But what I worry about, and it may be ungrounded, you can let me know kind of your thoughts on this, is that we only do this for our breast cancer patients or maybe some of our gynecology patients. But I don't know if we talk about it with very many other people. But I think it is something that we need to normalize speaking about with our patients, because there's so many other things that they have to sacrifice and that they have to lose.

And that should not, you know, intimacy with their, you know, whomever should not be another thing that they have to give up. And it is something that, you know, they should feel comfortable talking to us about. And if they're not comfortable talking to their oncologist about, then it can be a social worker, it can be us, you know, whomever.

But I do think it is something that we definitely need to speak about more often with them. Well, I remember writing a paper called If You Don't Ask, I'm Not Going to Tell. And it was a qualitative study that I did of hospice, interviewing hospice patients and interviewing hospice nurses.

And the nurses talk about they don't ask about sexual health, because if patients have an issue with it, they figured they'll bring it up. And what the patient said, well, if they don't ask me about it, I'm not going to bring it up. Because they asked me about my bowels, and that's none of their business.

They asked me about all this other stuff that's really, really personal. So if they're not asking me about my sexual health, it means that they don't have anything to offer me. And I thought that was really an interesting thing.

And in our clinic, we had a just a one page symptom assessment. And one of the questions was, do you have any difficulty expressing yourself sexually? And they were just yes or no answers. But at least, at least there we asked.

And if they checked off, yes, then we talked with them about it. And they would refer them, you know, to other clinicians, saw that they would refer them for sexual health counseling. And so at least we started asking, even if it was on that form.

And even if the other clinicians weren't comfortable dealing with it, at least they had somebody to send them to. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.

And I think that we all need to remember, and I think it was Ira Biox that talks about that whenever we ask our patients, how are you feeling, they're immediately going to start talking about their physical symptoms. They never talk about how they're emotionally feeling, how they're spiritually feeling. And so they're not going to offer these things up to us.

And so, you know, you're absolutely right, we have to ask about that. And, you know, it is it needs to be part of the assessment, because nobody's going to come in there and just say, you know, I am, you know, not feeling sexual, or, you know, my wife won't have sex with me, or since I started the treatment, you know, or whatever it may be, you know, who can I speak to about this, because it's not something that you are that we normalize talking about. And I think it's important because I've heard in that role some really horrific stories that people are dealing with.

And where else do they talk about it? Because if we're not asking them, they're not going to bring it up. You know, the other thing they would say is, well, the oncologist is really busy, so I'm not going to burden them with that. But, you know, if you're in pain, or you're constipated, or anything else, we don't consider, or people don't consider that a burden to talk about it.

But why is your sexual health a burden to talk about? And I think that's what Molly shows us is that. That was the thing that she wanted some closure on. I hate that word, but some closure on, and there were things that she wanted to do.

And it wasn't, you know, a trip to Maui, it was to be able to have an orgasm. And she went for it, and she got what she needed. And I hope that as people listen to our podcast, and listen to all the things that we have to say, that maybe they take away that whatever it is that you're feeling that you're wanting at the end of your life, it's yours to want and yours to have.

And that your best friend, or whoever it is, that you can get that if that's what's important to you. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And advocating for yourself, speaking up, and the thing I loved was not worrying about judgment.

Yeah, what they portrayed was like, I don't have time for that. I don't know how long I have, but I don't have time to worry about your judgment, or your permission, or anything. Like, this is my time, and I need to do what I need to do.

Right. Yeah, absolutely. Well, Gina, thank you for sitting with me and talking about this.

And no, nobody is sponsoring us to talk about this. So, if you have the channel, you know, be sure that you check this out. And there's even other ways that you can watch things that are on Hulu.

If you Google it, they'll tell you all these kind of secret ways that you can get in and you can watch it. So, I would really recommend that clinicians watch it, and mothers watch it, and people who are going through cancer treatment watch it. There's a lot of different viewpoints and perspectives that it brings.

Any final words from you? No, I agree with you. I think it's a good idea. If you've ever had anybody in the medical community going through any type of journey like that, I think it is a really, really realistic show.

And, you know, I said I was given strict instructions to watch it, and I'm really glad I did. You know, I thought it was great. And, you know, we've had wonderful discussions about it.

And, you know, my patients that are actually going through journeys, you know, saying that they felt seen and heard, and it's reality, you know, all of those big, important words. And so, I think that that's wonderful. Well, thank you for talking with us, and we don't have any future chats planned, but I'm sure that we'll be coming up with something.

Of course, of course. Thank you for having me. Okay.

Thank you, Gina and Marianne, for that discussion. Please stay tuned for the continuing saga of Everyone Dies, and thank you for listening. This is Charlie Navarrete, and from an anonymous writer, the cycle of life always includes death.

And I'm Marianne Matzo, and we'll see you next week. Remember, every day is a gift. Remember, every day is a gift.

If you may have a medical emergency, call your doctor or 911 immediately. Everyone Dies does not recommend or endorse any specific tests, practitioners, products, procedures, opinions, or other information that may be mentioned in this podcast. Reliance on any information provided in this podcast by persons appearing on this podcast at the invitation of Everyone Dies or by other members is solely at your own risk.