Talking with Marlo Shaw: Advice for Photographing in Polar Environments, Discussions on Color Theory, and All About Art Exhibits

Summary

In this engaging conversation, Marlo Shaw, a talented artist and photographer, shares her insights on the intersection of art and photography, emphasizing the importance of color theory, composition, and the creative process. She discusses her experiences with art shows, the techniques she employs in polar photography, and her strategies for capturing wildlife, particularly polar bears. Marlo also delves into the intricacies of photo processing and editing, highlighting her personal style and the significance of confidence in a photographer's journey.

Mentioned in the Episode

Marlo's Website

Michael Freeman's books on Composition and Color Theory

Poster Jack Photo Printing Website (Marlo uses for her work)

Arthelper.Ai - art promo tool using AI. use code WILD for 30 day free trial

Lensrentals.com - WildPhotographer15 for 15% off

Shimoda Designs - Whelan10 for 10% off (I mention the ActionX40 Backpack)

Takeaways

• Photography is a form of visual art that shares principles with painting.
• Color theory plays a crucial role in both photography and painting.
• Rules in art and photography are meant to be broken for creativity.
• Art shows can significantly enhance an artist's visibility and sales.
• Patience is essential when photographing wildlife to capture authentic moments.
• The perspective from which a photo is taken can change its impact.
• Dark and moody images can evoke strong emotions in viewers.
• Efficient photo processing is key for managing large volumes of images.
• Confidence in one's skills is vital for growth as a photographer.
• Sharing work leads to learning and improvement in photography. 

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Marlo Shaw: The Artist's Journey
03:37 The Intersection of Photography and Painting
18:24 Color Theory in Visual Arts
33:27 Art Shows: Insights and Experiences
44:26 Capturing Polar Bears: Techniques and Insights
48:37 Techniques for Polar Photography
51:18 Understanding Bear Behavior for Better Photography
54:21 The Importance of Photo Processing and Editing
01:07:57 Overcoming Challenges in Photography
01:16:11 Essential Non-Photo Gear for Nature Photography
01:18:47 Advice for Aspiring Photographers

• Check out Court’s photography and conservation work: CourtWhelan.com
• Follow Court Whelan (@courtwhelan) on YouTube for more photography tips
• Sign up for Court's conservation, travel and photography blog at www.courtwhelan.com
• View Court's recommended camera gear
• Promo Codes:
  LensRentals.com - WildPhotographer15 for 15% off
  ShimodaDesigns.com - Whelan10 for 10% off
  Arthelper.Ai - WILD for 30 day free trial of Pro Version

Transcript

Court Whelan (00:01)
Marlo, welcome, so good to see you.

Marlo (00:03)
Hey, Court. Yeah, so good to be here. Yeah, thanks for having me.

Court Whelan (00:05)
Yeah, well, thank you so much for joining. So I'm just going to launch into it. Marlo, you are, course, a Polar Guide extraordinaire ⁓ photographer, of course, but also a multimedia artist. And specifically, I recall looking at images and posts and some stories from one of your recent art shows. And you have a number of paintings in there. So while I...

I definitely want to do a deep dive into polar photography. I want to start off by talking about and hearing your thoughts on this intersection of photography and other art forms. I guess specifically your painting. Do you view the two as complementary? And is there anything you've learned about the painting world that perhaps helps with your photography and maybe even vice versa?

Marlo (00:51)
Yeah, I mean, absolutely. think that photography is art, isn't it? Photography is visual art. So I believe really strongly in that. And I think a lot of the principles are very similar. And I put my foot into the visual art and painting world, a few different medias, but mostly in oil paints when I was really young. And so, you know, even when I was in just like grade school age, my ⁓

parents, they sent me to a, it like a garage and there was a bunch of retired ladies there. And there was one woman who would supply all the paints and you could kind of just come and paint whatever you wanted, but there would be art critique throughout. she, all of the people would kind of come and comment on each other's paintings, but also there would be, you know, periodic lessons about composition and color theory and value and all of these things.

That start for me ⁓ is like kind of my base for all of my visual art, not just painting, but photography as well. And so I'm thinking about those things too when I'm taking pictures. But I'm also, I lecture on it a little bit during my photography trips that I run. So as like a photo expedition leader, I do draw that parallel all the time. I can get into specifics if you want, but yeah, they're totally interlinked. It's all the same. ⁓

Court Whelan (02:15)
Well, yeah,

I often think about that, you know, with with painting. I mean, you you get to choose the perfect composition and you get to choose the exact colors each and every time. So. maybe could you speak a little bit specifically about those couple of things? You mentioned color theory, which is actually something I myself am really getting into. am. I'll be honest, like other than what I just think is my intuitive ability to.

Marlo (02:27)
Mm-hmm.

Court Whelan (02:41)
like colors and to capture colors and to edit for colors. ⁓ It's something I feel relatively nascent and early on with. I actually just got a great book by Michael Freeman, who does some amazing photo books. I'd say if there's one author for anyone to check out in the audience, Michael Freeman has some extraordinary photo books. And actually his book on composition, talking about the other facet I just mentioned, is one of the things that probably propelled me in photography more than any other resource.

so quick little shout out to Michael Freeman and that book and his color theory. I gotta say, I am very overwhelmed by color theory and we could probably do an entire episode on that, but maybe is there anything specific or particularly helpful when it comes to photography that you could talk about with color theory as you've gleaned from your painting work?

Marlo (03:33)
Yeah, well, first I want to do, I want to come back to one of the things you said, which was when you're painting, you can choose everything. And when you're taking a photo, you can't always choose everything. Although things are becoming a lot more flexible with editing these days. ⁓ But when I had an aha moment about that, that was when I learned about Robert Bateman. You know Robert Bateman? Okay, so you've got to look him up. ⁓ He's really, really well known in Canada, ⁓ but he's a...

Court Whelan (03:54)
Mmm, no.

Marlo (04:02)
He's a painter who does a lot of wildlife paintings and I learned about how he would set up a composition for one of his paintings. And so that's also when I learned principles of leading lines and different components of your picture and how to draw a viewer in for a painting. But the way that he, one of the ways that he would do this would be to have reference photos. You know, you're starting to paint something. like, you know, especially early on, but.

truly for a lot of artists all through their career. You you're gonna be using references to be able to make sure that you're gathering the true gist of the subject that you're trying to portray, right? And so I remember seeing ⁓ like chopped up components of a picture of a snow leopard. That's one of his really famous paintings. And...

how each of the rocks and the cracks in the rocks were specifically placed to point into the snow leopard that you might not even really fully see when you're first looking at the painting. And yeah, that's, mean, it's just that big intersection, that mix of, you you can have a reference photo, but you can chop that up and then make it into your painting. And yeah, Robert Bateman, someone who I can really thank for that. Really inspirational guy. Color theory, I think.

I had a big moment too, on my recent very first trip to Utah. An example of, you know, one of the principles of color theory is, know, this idea of complementary colors and colors that we do like to see together. And ⁓ very trendy these days in people's homes. You see a lot of like warm tones along with teal. I've got a lot of it going on in my house. Like this teal color with a terracotta pot. I probably have one right over there.

Court Whelan (05:43)
Mm-hmm.

I know exactly

what you mean that color balance or that the complimentary those two specifically very hot right now. Now. I love them too.

Marlo (05:55)
Yeah.

Orange and teal. And there's a reason why we like it is it's biological, right? So if you look at a color wheel and they're on the opposite sides of that color wheel and we love that. So there's a lot of people who are editing their photos or making presets right now to really pull out those two colors or even just create them in the image so that it feels like an aesthetic that we like. And I was just blown away by driving through Utah and I was like, my gosh.

It's true, like this landscape really does look like that because of, you know, all the red rock, but the sage and the way that the light hits the sage on the side of the road, even, was just blown away. No wonder why it's been so inspirational by artists and photographers all over the world. not just like what you're seeing it, but how you're seeing it. So that's one thing about color theory that I can add, going off the rails.

Court Whelan (06:48)
Yeah, no, no, that's, that's great. And I'm glad you mentioned that specific color combination, because anybody listening, if you've looked at any photos from, you know, popular kind of hot or trendy photographers or photographs specifically these days, you're going to see that that color. I'm actually editing photos from a recent trip to Nepal. And I stumbled upon a preset just like that. And it just, kind of changes the hue of the blues from more of a purple to more of like a lighter, maybe like a teal blue.

And it's extraordinary. It gives this kind of interesting vibe where you're not just warming the whole photo with a warm white balance or cooling the whole thing off. You're actually creating this, this maybe tension is the right word where you're splitting it and you're actually adding both the warm and the cool. So you're creating this tension that's also resolved by the color theory you're talking about. So I think that's brilliant. Just ⁓

Curiosity of mine since I think you you probably know more about color theory than I do. Are there any other complementary colors that come to mind that it's almost as if we could predict where new trends might go if we're just looking at that wheel and kind of thinking of it from a scientific, mathematic point of view. And no worries if you don't have them off the top of your head. But I'm just curious, are there any others like that? I don't know of any, to be honest, like

like purple and yellow or something like that. don't know. Anything come to mind?

Marlo (08:16)
I mean, red and green have been together for a very long time. guys, know, Christmas, right? That's like a lifelong trend. These are trends that have been around forever because it just has to do with our own biology and the way that we see wavelengths of light. So I do think that people have kind of really grasped onto this specific thing right now, but I don't know. I can't, I don't think I can tell the future, but I do think it is worth anyone who's creating visual art to take a moment and think, you know,

Court Whelan (08:20)
True.

Mm-hmm.

Marlo (08:46)
why do I like this thing? Why am I spending extra time with this thing? This thing meaning a ⁓ piece of work, whether it be a painting or a drawing or a photograph. And ⁓ it's not just composition, it's color too.

Court Whelan (09:01)
Totally, and then that hits on a point that I've been teaching and talking about a lot lately, which is the intentionality behind photography. If you're not being intentional about a lot of facets of your photo, if not most or all, you're really missing out. And the more intentional, the more deliberate, really the more artsy you become and exude in your photographs.

So I love that. love that. So I want to go back to composition again, just kind of a personal curiosity thing with painting. So in photography, you know, when I'm teaching about composition, I'm talking about, you know, ye old rule of thirds. I'm talking about leading lines. I'm talking about layering and framing with painting and maybe with your photography too. Do you try to incorporate as many of those as possible? I often find that my favorite photos

have more than one compositional trick or one compositional element. It's the rule of thirds or something like it, plus it's leading lines or plus it's framing or layering or anything like that. The reason I'm asking is with painting, again, you get to choose all that. So while in nature we may not see a mountain scene with the perfect river in the bottom third and the sky in the upper third with all the elements we want, in painting, you can find that.

You can paint it, you can create it, but you can also put in a leading line. You can also put in some framing. Do you think more is better or is there, is it like your natural innate judgment or do you look at those things like I do and that the more the merrier, especially with painting and then maybe as an aside with photography too.

Marlo (10:44)
Yeah, I think it's really good question. I think that...

It okay, this is my this is how I really feel about this is that there? There's a lot of rules. There's a lot of rules, rules and painting rules and photography. And I really I truly believe that most of those rules are also just really meant to be broken. And I, think that the consistency with those rules, you know,

Court Whelan (10:54)
That's what we want. It's what the people want.

Marlo unplugged.

Marlo (11:19)
rule of thirds and leading lines and layering and framing and all this stuff is really neat. And there's a lot of pictures where I'm like, I see what they did there. And I agree with some of the choices that were made. ⁓ But there are other pictures and paintings where there's none of that at all. And I also really love them because they're very different.

And so I wouldn't say that I'm super consistent on saying every picture needs to have the proper leading line. Now, it is nice to be able to change a shadow a little bit if you're trying to direct attention in a particular way. And then you have that high point of contrast where you want it to be, which might not be in whatever you're using for reference. And that's for if you're...

trying to do a realist type painting, but truly, you know, that's not what all paintings are. Obviously we all know that they're not all, you know, here's a landscape of mountains and rivers and all that, but all of these principles you are also using in something, you know, as different as abstract art, and even more so probably. You know, if I'm making an abstract piece and I did have a few of them in my show as well, ⁓ I'm really, really thinking about that because those are like super basic things that are gonna hold people in.

with my painting is where is the weight in the painting ⁓ and where does the kind of flow of the eye go and how interesting and intricate are particular parts of that painting. And I'm thinking about all of those things, especially in ⁓ an abstract piece. I would say above all though, for me personally, ⁓ and this probably does come from my like, you know, painting and visual arts before, you know, learning more about photography.

I think about value a lot, value and weight in a picture and in a painting. And some of that might come from the fact that if you're doing an oil painting, maybe not everyone would know this, but a lot of traditional oil painting would have many layers. ⁓ And so you're priming your canvas and then you have maybe a reference image. Let's say you're trying to paint a realist image of something, a landscape.

And your first layer would be only value. So, you know, some people would use black and white, but more typically you would have like a Sienna version of your painting that you would do completely. just, you know, lights and darks, block out where you want what. And sometimes people do it very tight. So all the details are very specific in that under painting. And sometimes people do it very, very loose. And if you kind of stand back or squint your eyes, it's all...

You have to kind of be the artist to fully discern what's going to be where. And ⁓ those are really big lessons for me because as a painter, your following layers are really being built on that and it's going to create a lot more depth in your image. But also it's like the very starting point of the composition of your picture and it becomes very clear where the...

your eyes drawn, right? So the point of highest contrast, where does that exist and where are my darkest darks in there? Are my darkest darks balanced throughout that painting? And I think about that a lot in my photography as well. Are my darkest darks balanced throughout that picture and have I thought about that? And can I add something or take something away and post to make it feel like it has more balance? Those are the things I think about.

Court Whelan (14:52)
And getting back to that intentionality, I mean, it's very intentional. ⁓ you know, I don't want to say calculate it because that sounds like not art, but like the intentionality is so key. If there's any takeaway from this podcast or this little lesson here, yeah, the intentionality is everything. And even what you said about rules are meant to be broken 110%. Right. I think it's key that people know the rules and maybe even start with the rules, but think about how to break them. You know, how do you go against them?

with intention, of course, right?

so you've you've brought up a topic that kind of parlays perfectly into my next question, which is about your art show and art shows. ⁓ What were those like? Well, and can you talk to me about

the experience, some of the benefits you saw, and maybe a little bit about, you know, what can you teach others about why and perhaps how to do art shows, to get into art shows and design them and, you know, broker them, so to speak. I think it's a really interesting thing you're doing.

Marlo (15:52)
Yeah, I mean, I can speak a lot to that. It's a big process and there are big projects. ⁓ You know, there's some situational kind of almost luckiness, I suppose, because, you know, I live in a small town in Northern British Columbia and we have a small but really vibrant art gallery. you know, I've been building a relationship with them for years now. you know, there's somebody who, like myself, even five years ago, kind of as an emerging...

photographer in the area, you know, I was able to just, you know, submit an application as they were looking for their annual list of people who would do shows. you can apply with a portion of your portfolio for this particular art gallery. can apply with your portfolio and, you know, artist statement and, you know, an idea of what your show would be in about a year and a half in advance and apply for.

a certain surface area of the gallery as well. And it would be a month long show and that's they do month long rotations. There's other ways that you can do it too though. a lot of photographers have their pictures up at coffee shops and things like that. And sometimes it's just kind of getting to know the people who are running the place and seeing if you can kind of make a deal to get your artwork up in front of people. I would say doing this the way

Court Whelan (17:09)
Mm-hmm.

Marlo (17:18)
that I was able to, and I had a show in 2020, 2021, somewhere in that winter, and then this previous November, both at the same art gallery. And I would say one of the big benefits with that type of agreement of it all.

are the artwork only being up and available for that month long period is that people who are coming to see it and who are considering purchasing a piece, there is that kind of timeline. And I do see a lot of people who are putting photos up in cafes and they might be up there for a year. And people kind of feel like that opportunity is kind of always there. And for myself, this is really the only time that I'm really putting my work out there for people to purchase. so it...

Court Whelan (17:55)
Hmm.

Marlo (18:09)
it made for a couple of really successful shows, in part because of that maybe, but also because I had a large ⁓ digital component to the shows as well. And I was really mindful to make sure that everything was put up online so that people who are not able to come were able to see that. And the first show that I did during COVID was, ⁓ that was especially important because we couldn't have an opening night and we couldn't...

⁓ The gallery wasn't allowed to have over a certain number of people that were coming in, but I was able to be there and present in the gallery quite often, which is really nice to be able to kind of share the story of your pieces. And I would say, as a photographer and a painter and just a creative person in general, it has been the single best.

investment that I've really made in helping create more professional work and understanding how to share my work with other people. And so it's not just for me then, it's for other people and how to curate. Curating, my gosh, it's like the biggest thing. Yeah.

Court Whelan (19:19)
Have you noticed?

Yeah, yeah.

Well, I definitely have some follow up questions. The first I'm wondering is, have you noticed any, I guess I would say uptick in ancillary things like, you know, people reaching out to you for different photographs or, you know, other jobs or bespoke photographs or anything beyond just the kind of in the moment in the show transaction?

Marlo (19:48)
Yeah, there was people who wanted different sizes of particular pieces sometimes if they were photos. So my last show that I had, had about 70 pieces and I would say it was probably like half paintings, half photos. And yeah, I have gotten painting commissions from these shows and some additional requests, but also just...

the broader knowledge and awareness in the community that I'm doing this, I would say that that's where a lot of the value is and you can kind of choose what you'd like to do. Because I don't have a ⁓ print shop that I have running all the time on a website or something like that. You've really got to kind of contact me directly to do it that way. And I don't know if that's necessarily advisable, but that's just the way that I do it. And some of it is out of necessity because I...

I'm working away so much. really am, just guiding all the time. So it makes it really hard to follow up on small projects like that. I'd much rather do one big project where I can think about my work that I have that's new as a whole and what is the best that I can show everybody and how can I really share a story ⁓ with a series instead of, you know, have a singular transaction or connection with somebody.

But it's all just building, you know? I really thought, after my first show, it was really, really hard. the curating process and, you know, purchasing your prints beforehand, but also the hanging, like the hanging took a very long time. A lot of galleries will do it all themselves. Some other galleries will allow you to have a lot of creative process.

This particular gallery is a non-profit, so a lot is put onto the artist. And that's okay, I just learned a lot in that, and it was a big, big investment in a lot of ways. And I think after both shows, while I was hanging, I was like, I'm never doing this again. This is so hard. before anybody else sees the work, you're...

Court Whelan (21:56)
Ha

Marlo (22:04)
You know, all artists, know, we second guess a lot of things, right? But also in both shows, the week after the opening, it was like, oh, I can't wait to do this again. Like, I'm definitely gonna do this again.

Court Whelan (22:15)
Yeah, do you have another one lined up or at least in your mind?

Marlo (22:19)
No, I have to accumulate some new work. And so I'm in the process of thinking about what that's going to look like. And it'll probably be a number of years from now before I have a big show like that again. I would consider doing like one half the size maybe. Yeah. And, maybe trying to get something in a different place, like maybe one of the neighboring communities or even something down in the lower mainland. Yeah.

Court Whelan (22:45)
Okay, last question about the show and then I want to do ⁓ our deep dive into Arctic photography with your tips and tricks and advice and vision. But who do you use and maybe more importantly, who do you trust to print your photos?

Marlo (23:00)
Yeah, there's a Canadian printer called Poster Jack and I'm happy to share that. I really think that the economics of doing all of this is really important to share tips and tricks with people. I have no problem with that. They are reasonably priced, but they have a variety of products. They're not all the same quality, I would say. ⁓ So definitely if you're doing a big print with them, you know, test.

test before you receive your print. And I have had print mistakes by them as well. so like quality checks is really, really important. But for me, a lot of the value comes in, one, they're Canadian and I'm Canadian, so that really helps. ⁓ Two, they have very specific, very finished gallery ready product that I love for photography, which is their... ⁓

Court Whelan (23:44)
Mm-hmm.

Marlo (23:54)
gallery boxes. So you have like a floor board that's almost kind of a mat that has a black frame around it. And it also has a wired hanging apparatus on the back, which is like absolutely pivotal for hanging something in these particular galleries. You've got to figure out your hanging system, which you probably never cared about before you had to do this.

Court Whelan (23:55)
Mmm.

The things you learn. ⁓

Marlo (24:19)
Yeah,

but their customer service is really good. So in times where we've had reprints from them and I've printed a lot with them, they've been pretty no questions asked. I'll send you a reprint right away and obviously free of charge. And that's been, that's been really, really good. They also, I will hold onto files for a short period of time. I had a hard drive issue and I had a picture that a client wanted to come back and get another print of. And I was like, I don't have that picture anymore.

Court Whelan (24:48)
⁓

no. ⁓ the nightmare of all all we photographers.

Marlo (24:49)
And I asked them, I know,

I know. And I was like, hey, you got that TIFF file from this, da da. And they were like, let us do some digging. And they found it and I was able to get the print and also the TIFF file back. So that was great. I do, I do. I gotta be honest, like I'm not the most techie person, but I was told once to print in the biggest TIFF that you have. So that's what I...

Court Whelan (25:03)
Hmm. A new print in TIFF.

Marlo (25:18)
Yeah.

Court Whelan (25:18)
Okay, well cool.

Well, I'll put, so that's poster Jack. I'll put that in the show notes for folks. ⁓ Yeah, great advice. Very interesting. I'll be honest. I have not physically myself printed a lot of photos over the years. I tend to hand them into graphic designers or magazines or whatever they might be. So I don't know the magic behind the scenes. I don't know if they're converting them to TIFF, probably not for smaller print pieces, but it's really good to know in terms of larger things.

Marlo (25:22)
Yeah.

Court Whelan (25:48)
⁓ Okay, so I'd like to switch gears here and get into some of the technique and ⁓ maybe mindset of your polar photography. ⁓ I know there are a lot of things that you're into, but that's one that really jumps out to me, especially when I see your website and of course see images from your show. So you do guide a lot in polar regions, ⁓ namely Greenland, the Canadian Arctic and Antarctica. If there's anything I'm missing, feel free to let me know. But what are some lessons you could impart to others about?

photographing these areas. Perhaps it has to do with the mindset going into the trip or going into the specific scene. Maybe it's technique and fun apertures and f-stops or maybe something else.

Marlo (26:31)
Yeah, when I think of working and photographing in the Arctic, I just think about how rugged and extreme that environment is and how unforgiving it is. It's unforgiving to you and it's unforgiving to your gear. know, ⁓ participant beware, I suppose. And for me, the most important thing, especially because I'm guiding while I'm out there, is to have a photography system that is

really, I would just call it quick and dirty, especially if I'm not doing ⁓ a photography trip per se, I'm doing a regular expedition, but I wanna, obviously, the great light doesn't always wait for the photography trip, you kinda hope that it does, but you're gonna have amazing moments out there that you'll wanna document. And so for me, having my kit in something that's really durable, ⁓ like while I'm packing from like,

Example in Greenland from base camp to zodiac from zodiac to hiking from hiking back to zodiac and You know, it could be beautiful day. It could be raining there could be salt spray from you know being in the zodiac and there's splash coming into the boat and ⁓ I find that protecting my gear from all of those movements one and to ⁓ the salt water and the elements is a big consideration of mine and you know when we're when I'm doing trips in Antarctica, I'm also working on a sailboat and we

It's the same thing. It's the same thing. So I have ⁓ like Uber waterproof backpack and you know, kind of a padded system that I use to be able to put my lens in there really quickly and be able to pull it out super quickly. And when I'm not doing a photography trip, I do have my camera sitting in aperture priority often so that I can really quickly ⁓ create a scene and snap a picture, especially if, you know, wildlife doesn't wait around for you to get.

Court Whelan (28:06)
Mm-hmm.

Marlo (28:26)
everything's swapped out and I usually have my long lens sitting on my camera. ⁓ you know, it's ⁓ obviously a benefit if you have wildlife coming around, but it's also kind of my favorite way to shoot landscape shots in polar environments because I really like the compression of.

Court Whelan (28:45)
using

a wildlife lens like a zoom telephoto. Mmm, yeah.

Marlo (28:47)
Yeah, I

really do. And I think it's probably 30 % convenience because the lens is already on my camera and I can just really quickly do that. But it's 70%. I just really like those images because you can get a really great compression of those mountains that are in the back, having them behind whatever your subject is. In like a basic, you know, polar photo, you've got iceberg, right? You've got, you know, beautiful, beautiful water.

icebergs sitting with mountains behind, let's say, right? And having all those layers kind of squish up a little bit. To me, I feel like it does more justice to kind of the grandeur of the landscape. Not everybody makes that choice, but I do. So yeah, for me, it's those two things.

Court Whelan (29:29)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, fully agree. that's, that's something I actually teach quite often is, is that the bigger the landscape, almost the less I'm reliant on a wide angle or, or especially ultra wide. A lot of times people go to these big areas, the Arctic, Antarctica, um, you know, the rugged terrain of Greenland and they think, well, it's a big area. So I should bring my, my ultra wide, my 16 to 35 or 10 to 22. And yeah, I, kind of think it's.

almost the exact opposite. I want to, it's easy to get sucked into trying to capture the whole scene, right? know, amazing mountains and icebergs and gravel beaches and all this. But the reality is in one photo, unless you're going to blow that up to like a four foot by six foot, you're going to lose the detail in some of those things. And having a 70-200 or 100 or 400, yeah, is my best friend because I can.

not only just compress the landscape and get those layers, but also gets the viewer to hone in on specific elements. And we're now in a world where usually when we're showing photos, this is outside of art shows, usually we are showing a series. It's a post with the ability to put 10 photos, or it's a website where you're automatically making a collage. so breaking it into little pieces and parts, I think is...

hugely helpful advice and and I agree not only do I also agree that your photos are beautiful in that way, but it's one of my personal preferences too. so that was what I was going to ask next actually is about the gears or any photo gear that you think is particularly helpful in photographing in these areas. But I think I think I just got it. It sounds like, you know, the waterproof bag for peace of mind as well as just general safety and security. I'm guessing is that the Ortlieb bag or is it something else?

Marlo (31:23)
It's not, it would be great if it was. ⁓ I honestly can't even remember the brand of it, but it's just one of those like mega dry bags that you roll down in clothes.

Court Whelan (31:32)
Sure, but it's truly

watertight. Like you could, it could fall off the side of the boat and it would still be dry. Yeah. Yeah. Anything could happen when you're in and out of Zodiacs, you're grabbing hands, you have to jump in the water to go grab a line as a guide. Yeah. Totally agree. ⁓ so, so yeah, talk to me a little bit more about the specifics of your camera gear. What do you, what are you shooting on in general? But obviously I'd love to hear more about polar regions. you know, camera body.

Marlo (31:37)
get there because anything

Court Whelan (32:00)
What is that choice lens that you have that's on your camera most of the time?

Marlo (32:04)
Yeah, well, I'm in an awkward stage as a photographer right now because I'm kind of transitioning brands and kits. it is an interesting time to be me doing this because I don't have like my kit isn't 100 % on either side of the brands that I'm using. over the last number of years, ⁓ I've used my Canon 5D4 So I have been a late converter to mirrorless photos.

Court Whelan (32:14)
Ha ha ha!

Marlo (32:32)
and have just been super religious about having my 1-400 L ⁓ series 2 lens just attach to that camera. it's done so well. For me, it's such a rugged kit and it still produces really beautiful photos, even though it doesn't have a lot of the bells and whistles of the newer cameras. And so that's been my kit for a really long time. ⁓ I'm actually, currently transitioning my kit to Sony.

Court Whelan (32:52)
Mm-hmm.

Marlo (33:02)
So if anybody is old enough to know or to see this camera, it's like a more than a 10 pound kit. It's, five to four with that one to four lens is huge and it's quite cumbersome to travel the world with this kit. And so I kind of made a, I promised myself that my next kit was gonna be.

Court Whelan (33:14)
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, the 5D for.

Marlo (33:31)
a lot like still very powerful, but a lot smaller. And I've just been looking, looking, looking for years really to figure out what that was going to be. And for now I have a Sony Alpha 7C2 and it's one of the most compact full frame cameras that's on the market right now. And it's a really good kind of hybrid camera for both photography and videography. And I have a long lens on that camera or a short lens on that camera right now because I was using it for ⁓

Court Whelan (33:45)
Hmm.

Marlo (34:00)
Northern Lights season and I'm picking up the 1-400 lens that Sony has now ⁓ for my Greenland season as well. But it performs pretty well, ⁓ but it's the one thing about that darn camera is that the display is not the highest quality. that's one thing that if I ever would do it again, I would look at that. ⁓

Court Whelan (34:01)
Hmm.

you

Marlo (34:29)
and consider something that maybe has a higher resolution on that display camera, because it's just so important to see how your image quality is while you're out in the field. And so, so far as ⁓ a night photography camera, it's performed quite well. ⁓ But it's, yeah, it has like any camera, right? It has limitations. And I would say like, I'm not a mega gear head when it comes to this kind of stuff. Like I said, my photography style is pretty...

quick and dirty and what's really important to me is to be able to like get the shot in the moment and have my kit ready, but also to be ⁓ really dialed in, like knowing what my kit is capable of and ⁓ not having to do these crazy lens switches all the time. I used to go into the field with like multiple bodies. ⁓ And these days I'm just going in with one body and a couple lenses, maybe three.

Court Whelan (35:25)
Hmm.

Marlo (35:26)
but usually just a couple. And I just say like, is my limitation. I have to work within these bounds. And I find that that helps you be more creative in your thinking to not. So it's a 10 to 18. So it's not like the widest of the wide, but it's done, it did pretty well this season and it's a 2.8. How small is this?

Court Whelan (35:36)
What's your Northern light lens?

Yeah,

Yeah, yeah, that is a that's a good lens. Yeah, the the Canon mirrorless version of that is just getting bigger and bigger and bigger. It's the 15 to 35 beautiful lens. But oh, my gosh, it's it's like bigger than the 24 to 72.8. Like it's it's kind of a beast. Yeah. Yeah, that's a that's a huge thing going ultra light, small, compact when traveling, especially when toting all the guide gear. So 100 percent.

Marlo (35:52)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Court Whelan (36:17)
Understand the switch and the direction Let's talk about photographing polar bears another one of the Arctic wonders and something that I know you do a lot of when you're photographing polar bears What are you looking for? What are you waiting for? What? What according to Marlo would get you the next level photo because I can tell from your photo style You are indeed intentional you you are patient. You're looking for something maybe different or at least showing it in a different

way a different light, ⁓ I guess, metaphorically and literally in some cases. And you've seen a lot of these things, right? You've seen a lot of polar bears. So what is it that you're looking for? What do you try to capture to get your choice photos? Dare I say, you know, the next level of photo of something you've seen many times before, like a polar bear.

Marlo (37:10)
Yeah, well, the polar bear photos that I've taken have all been in Churchill, Manitoba. And for anybody who's ever done any wildlife photography out there, know that composition is a really big challenge when you're in Churchill. And for me, a lot of that has to do with just the different values in the landscape, just going back to the beginning of our conversation. So you have these really dark willows, willow bushes that are, and the bears are...

largely, not always, but often on land. And these willow bushes up against that white snow is one, creating a high point of contrast that's really distracting to the eye, but two, they create these kind of crazy jagged, like not straight lines. And if you have a cloudy day, which often it's cloudy during the time of year where the polar bears are out there, then it's difficult to actually make your horizon line look good.

because in the distance, you these rows of willows. ⁓ And so that's one thing I'm thinking about often is if I'm watching a polar bear walk through the landscape is where are the willows in that picture? And how is the bear being framed by the landscape? ⁓ Because I think that that's probably one of the first things that makes or breaks a really great photo in Churchill for me. I really noticed it. And for people who... ⁓

Court Whelan (38:08)
Hmm.

Marlo (38:36)
have seen photos of polar bears before, but you haven't photographed them, know, most of the polar bear photos that you've seen, if they have these dark willows around them, are gonna be shot in this particular area. so for me, it's finding the most simple composition with the least distraction, I think, for me, is the most important, and then obviously having good light.

Court Whelan (39:00)
Mm-hmm.

Marlo (39:01)
taking advantage of light as it comes in. You can't really control that, but on your day that you're having good light, jeez, hopefully you're ready for the moment and you're in the right place. Yeah, and I would say just from my photos, but also looking at other people's photos and the world of wildlife photography, I am always thinking about.

Court Whelan (39:10)
Mm-hmm.

Marlo (39:27)
what was the perspective or the angle of the viewer on that bear changes the feeling in that picture. That's a really important point for any wildlife photography, but especially for these polar bearer photo trips, have, ⁓ you you're often shooting from a vehicle and the vehicles are quite raised because they don't want the polar bears to crawl in. Fair enough. And important, exactly. And,

Court Whelan (39:33)
Hmm.

important.

Marlo (39:54)
Because of that, you get this kind of viewer down look at the bears. sometimes that's not a problem, but I do like my pictures that are bears that are slightly farther away. And that plane kind of starts to level out and it looks like you're almost like eye to eye with that bear. You're on the same level. And I also really do look for the behavior. What I can see through a photo of the behavior of that animal.

in any wildlife photography, but for polar bears, definitely rings true. know, are they, do they look afraid? Are they looking directly into the lens? Are they looking in a curious way or are they looking in a, my goodness, you guys just approached so quickly and you know, right on top of me and I need to get out of here kind of thing. And for people who don't do a lot of wildlife photography or they're just focused on like photo with the most bear that they possibly can, they can kind of get lost by that. ⁓

Some of that also has to do with just, you know, making sure that you are traveling in a responsible way with a company that's not going to put an animal in that situation. And so I feel really fortunate to be a part of a company that, that is like at the core of the, value system is like doing everything in the best interest of the critters. And, know, the photo definitely comes second. And I think that that's something that we all need to remember. Yeah.

Court Whelan (41:16)
Well said,

well said. Yeah. Just to echo your, your thought and your, interests in terms of photographic opportunities on the same way. I would prefer a polar bear, you know, 50 yards, a hundred yards away versus one that's right underneath me because of that angle, frankly. Um, it's extraordinary when you can get a bear that's up on a little bit of a berm, um, in the willows. So you are really shooting quite plain with that animal. So yeah, it's, it's all the more reason.

to bring that beefy telephoto with you on those trips because that's the best way to do it in my opinion. But that leads me to another question, which is, do you tend to have a certain style of polar bear photo in the sense, like I personally view wildlife photography kind of in two camps. You can have wildlife portraiture where you're really showcasing maybe the expression of the animal or really just the detail, like zooming in. This is of course where close bears are, they're fantastic.

or are you looking more for the wildlife in landscape shot? Or are you trying to do it all?

Marlo (42:20)
⁓ I like all things, ⁓ but I would say the limitation of what you can really do is some of it has to do with light and also your camera's capabilities, right? So again, my kit for a long time has not been the newest on the market. She can perform really well, but I'm not going to be taking detail shots unless I have a lot of light and the bear is really quite close. And when that opportunity does happen, I'm...

I will try for that and see, see what I'm able to come up with. But otherwise, yeah, I'm really, I'm really thinking about composition, composition and bear in landscape. But if the willows aren't right, it can't be that. And I will crop. Yeah.

Court Whelan (43:02)
Mm-hmm. Okay.

So I think one of our superpowers as guides and biologists, but also photographers is getting this added benefit of being able to analyze behavior to anticipate shots and you being a bear behavior expert and biologist and someone that's been around bears, all sorts of bears for quite some time. Do you have any tricks or any things you do or keep front of mind when analyzing the behavior of bears? And it could be of course, any wildlife.

to get those great photos in anticipation of something happening, any strategies you employ.

Marlo (43:40)
Yeah, I think the most important strategy for any wildlife photographer, again, is just patience, patience and respect for the critter. And I think a lot of times, most of the times, that really pays off. Because again, if you don't have that, you're gonna push yourself into a situation where you're just seeing behavior that, one, you really don't wanna see for the wellbeing of the critter, but also for your pictures. For people who know what they're looking at, they can tell that you've...

you know, you've kind of approached too quickly for that critter and whether bears will bears are very expressive, very expressive faces, you know, and these forward facing eyes and, know, especially grizzly bears, you can really see their eyes. And ⁓ I find that you can often often tell. So I would say that, you know, the best the best strategy is ⁓ going into an encounter knowing that you are going to take your time. And for me on photography trips, you know, really communicating that to guests as well, that might be newer to.

Court Whelan (44:13)
Mm-hmm.

Marlo (44:37)
photographing large carnivores is, you know, it can take quite the moment to be able to set up a close encounter with this critter. It's, you know, we have to have permissions on both sides. And they are setting the rules in some aspect, right? And ⁓ with bears, you know, there's lots of cues that you can watch for, you know, are they smelling the air? Are they yawning? Are they, you know, which...

Court Whelan (44:50)
Mm-hmm.

Marlo (45:06)
How are they facing you? Are they facing you straight on? And they kind of walking in like an angled direction to you, but still checking on you. Are they running away? Are you just looking at their butt? You see all these things. know, their behavior is really, really complex. So we can have a really long conversation about this, yeah, trust your guide and know that these critters are...

Court Whelan (45:28)
I'm sure we could.

Marlo (45:35)
living in a world that's very different than ours and it's a lot more complex in that ⁓ they're not just in a visual landscape, they're in a smell scape and so we are part of that as photographers that are interacting with these animals. ⁓ But there can also be a lot of other things at play that we don't see because we can't smell them and that could be other animals around as well. And so I'm always looking to see if bears are responding to...

any kind of stimulants

Court Whelan (46:06)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

So switching gears a little bit here, photo processing is becoming such an important part of photography. And when I say processing, it's well beyond the editing or the Photoshopping. It's also the selection of images. It's the culling of images. And so I wanna ask you about your approach to processing and editing, but I also wanna ask this other question, which could...

honestly be a totally different answer or topic, but I wanted to pair this with it So one, what is your editing and processing style and approach? But then also, what is the Marlo photo style? Again, I think a lot of that can come out in editing, but certainly a lot comes out with the actual raw capture in camera. What are you looking for? ⁓

What sort of images do you prefer? And yeah, what is your photo style and how do you approach editing?

Marlo (47:10)
Yeah, I've been told before that my photo style is dark and moody. I tend to agree. I do like dark images. I like high contrast images too, not in a way that looks like ultra mega mega processed, but just in a way that the blacks are truly black. And you know, when it's printed, you get that really kind of beautiful like matte black feeling to your shadow. Exactly. Yeah. I think about values a lot. And ⁓ I would say ⁓

Court Whelan (47:33)
going back to those values you're talking about.

Marlo (47:40)
Yeah, just being able to capture any kind of emotion in an image. find those are the pictures that I want to spend a lot more time with. And those are the ones that I, tend to like and, and favor more of my own pictures, but also other people's images. So, ⁓ yeah, I would say dark, dark and moody is my style if I had to choose it. And, ⁓ my photo processing ⁓ system, I'm going to start with.

It's just a short story, but there's a National Geographic photographer, ⁓ Daisy and Daisy, really sorry, I'm going to butcher your last name, but it's Gillardini. And she's quite a well-known bear photographer as well. She had a series of stamps in Canada, actually a bunch of portraits of bears and they're very beautiful. And we've done some work together on a ship on the British Columbia coast looking for grizzly bears. And I am a person, you know, at any opportunity I'm going to ask.

for mentorship and the opportunity to expand my knowledge, especially with this kind of stuff, because it's always changing and everybody has their own system. And so I cheekily, I wonder if she'll ever hear this, but I did cheekily kind of stay up late one night. She was processing her pictures and I had a lot of thought previous too to think, okay, well, if I had a moment with Daisy, what would be the one thing that I would ask her about her photography career? And the thing that I asked was,

How do you organize your photos? What do you do? Like, what's your first step? And geez, I learned a lot because, you know, she came from, I think a finance or an accounting background before she got into photography. And she just has this engineer mindset of Uber organization. um, I mean, to, without going into and selling all of her, her secrets, I would say one thing that I learned and tried to practice now is that she 

She formats her cards every day, every night. So she'll, after a day of shooting, upload all the pictures, backup all the pictures, and then next day format card, card is, you know, completely available and she'll, she takes a lot, a lot of images. And so it was a great thing to learn because it is quite opposite to what I do. I have a lot of anxiety about deleting pictures because I would just...

Court Whelan (49:38)
Hmm.

Same.

Marlo (50:00)
There's more

Court Whelan (50:00)
yeah.

Marlo (50:01)
backup, right? But she just knows what her system is and knows that it's really safe because she's got things on the cloud and things on the drive, things in fire safe box. And it's her career full time, right? So it makes sense that she's really, really dialed with her assets really in that way. ⁓ And then I'm also someone who doesn't take that many pictures. I'm really choosy about when I have my kit out because again, I'm guiding all the time. And also I can kind of see and think about.

Court Whelan (50:08)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Marlo (50:30)
Okay, this is the one. So she, yeah, really, really talented. I learned that from her, um, for my card every day. And you know, she has daily, um, daily folders and all of this. Another photographer, Talon Gillis is a photographer from Terrace, is also fairly well known. Terrace is a small town that I'm from. I also brought him to a coffee shop and that was the thing that I asked him. And that was when I was, I think I still had a rebel. Like it was one of my very first cameras and I was just learning.

nature photography and I was like, I don't understand Lightroom. You know, this is years and years ago. I don't understand Lightroom. I don't understand post-processing. What should I do? And he was like, my number one piece of advice is to learn how to catalog correctly. And so I have to thank him again for being, you know, mentor to me. And he showed me, I know once I have my pictures on my drive and then get them onto the Lightroom, he showed me how to flag and rate my pictures in a really kind of quick way so that I can

very quickly consolidate everything that I think is usable and then start my editing process from there. And so I'm sure you have people who are really well-versed in Lightroom and maybe some people who are new to it. But you know, if you are just cruising through your catalog of your pictures of let's say it was just that day of shooting whatever you're shooting, maybe it was a grizzly bear, and you you go to the numbers on the top of your keyboard and you just press number two, then that photo is ranked as two stars. And then, you know.

ten photos in, you're looking at all the pictures from one particular moment, you like this one the most, rank it as four or something, four star. And then you go to the bottom and choose sort by rating. And then all of a sudden everything is up there that you want to be actually editing. I do this when I'm on all of my trips, not just photography trips, because I need a really quick turnaround system for getting guests their photos before I go to the next trip, which is the next day.

Court Whelan (52:06)
Mm-hmm.

Marlo (52:27)
And so on any given trip that's about a week long, I'll probably have 30 to 50 images that I think are probably valuable to those guests. And of those, maybe five that are, I really, really like. And of those, maybe one that I'm going to post on social media. yeah, ⁓ that's my system for finding what I like and then being able to export those and put them in a separate edits folder for that particular trip.

Court Whelan (52:39)
Mm-hmm.

Marlo (52:56)
And instead of having things organized day by day, I organize everything trip by trip. So for me, it's like a week at a time. And as a general ethos without, you know, going too into detail, I'm a believer of global edits before local edits. I bring in lot of shadows in my images.

I do do a lot of masking. think that that's a really great tool for wildlife photographers and landscape photographers. I don't do very much layering. And that's just kind of a personal choice. Again, as quick as I can get a picture to where I like it, ⁓ I'm going to do that. I am a lot about efficiency because there's a lot of volume. And ⁓ I'm also super liberal with my temperature and my white balance.

Court Whelan (53:45)
Hmm, okay,

how so?

Marlo (53:47)
I like warm pictures and I work in cold places. So that doesn't always work. But there are people who are, you they find a neutral white balance and that's what it needs to be. Cause that's where that's what it looked like while you were there. And I, I choose to not abide by it.

Court Whelan (53:49)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Now do you have your camera set on like a cloudy white balance or something warm or is this primarily done in your Photoshop and Lightroom?

Marlo (54:15)
Only if I'm doing lights, Northern Lights, am choosy about my white balance just based on which of my two cameras that I'm using to get the color of Northern Lights that I want. Because truly, what your camera is seeing is different than what your eyeball is seeing, so you might as well just keep stretching.

Court Whelan (54:23)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, that might

be the takeaway quote but you might as well just keep stretching it. But no, I love that. I mean, that's that is where the art comes into play is you have that leeway. Nobody says you're writing a guidebook and explaining the exact spectrogram of the oxygen particles from the Northern Lights. You can do whatever you want.

Marlo (54:36)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, yeah, there are, mean, we've all seen pictures that are a little bit overdone, but you know what I mean? And I feel, yeah, otherwise I'm auto white balance all the way. I'm, yeah, I am an auto white balance and just deal with it in post. And again, a lot of ⁓ my shooting strategy when I'm in the field and a lot of this I'm thinking like, okay, we're, let's say we're in a Zodiac tour in Antarctica and we've...

Court Whelan (55:02)
Okay.

Marlo (55:18)
there's a lot of things to consider and to be looking at. have a lot of situational awareness. I'm probably also driving the boat, right? So interpreting the area, making sure people are safe, navigating, and then, my gosh, there's a leopard seal. And it's hauled up on an iceberg and it's amazing and we need some wildlife shots of this. So I gotta like pull my camera really quickly. I know that it's gonna be in probably an aperture priority. And just knowing that I have...

aperture priority, auto white balance, ISO set to auto with a limit. Then I just have a couple things that I need to make sure that are ⁓ really solid and I might swap it over into shutter priority if there's a lot of movement or something like that. then I know that I can get my image if I have a reliable camera that can produce something really good and I can think about composition. And that's usually what I do. I think about composition a lot. And I underexpose a lot.

Court Whelan (56:07)
Mm-hmm.

Marlo (56:14)
I try to underexpose if I can so that I don't overblow things and can sort out my exposure in post so that it looks...

Court Whelan (56:24)
so

even in polar areas, you will underexpose.

Marlo (56:27)
not always. Sometimes I will. Yeah, so I mean, this is kind of like one of the principles of polar photography. And maybe you've talked about this on your podcast before, Court, but you know, on your camera sees a lot of bright white when you're photographing in polar areas. And so if you have auto settings happening on your camera, then it will try to underexpose your image and your image will look quite gray and flat.

Court Whelan (56:32)
Okay.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Marlo (56:57)
because it's trying to compensate for the fact that it's a very bright area. So contrary to what a lot of people would think, it's typical to bump up your exposure compensation on your camera or if you're shooting in manual, you know, making sure that you are taking in a little bit of extra light to keep it bright. And yeah, I do some of that. But if I'm having, if I'm like on the fly between, you know,

teaching the guests, keeping them safe, moving the vessel, doing all this stuff. And I'm seeing that my exposure isn't quite right and I'm having trouble finding it. I will default to underexposing so that I keep all of the values in my picture and I can change it in post because, I mean, we all know this, right? As soon as you blow out your image and as soon as you're losing detail, especially in that snow, then you're hooped.

Court Whelan (57:49)
Mm-hmm. Might need to define hooped. No.

Marlo (57:54)
Yeah, mean, technology

is getting so much better every minute, right? We can bring things back from some pretty big mistakes out there, but you know, obviously better image quality from the get-go is going to help you, especially if you're printing big.

Court Whelan (58:08)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, so a couple of important things I want to just kind of reiterate going way back minutes and minutes. ⁓ One was that you believe in global edits before local edits. And so that basically means adjusting the entire image for all shadows across edge to edge before you do any sort of brush or masking or anything like that. I think that's a really ⁓ important, interesting takeaway. ⁓ I also think it's really helpful to understand

kind of the relativity of how many photos you take versus how many you might export as your final processed versus how many you might put in your, you know, kind of your best of or portfolio album. And I think it's something that a lot of people, especially those just getting started or even really quite far in, but not having been around a lot of pro photographers is you might take 500, a thousand, 2000 photos and get 30 to 50 that make the final edit, the final cut.

And then truly for a trip, especially if you're traveling as much as you do, but even if you're doing a lot less, you might only need or want to take out one or two of those really tippy top best photos for your be all and all save forever access super quickly album. think it's just important to understand how much folks like you and I will cull down those that we take on the trip to what stage we're sharing and keeping forever.

So very interesting there. Okay, I'm gonna get into some quicker questions here, but I just have a feeling this is gonna yield an interesting response. What is the most uncomfortable you've ever been to get a photograph and was it worth it?

Marlo (59:54)
Yeah, so I had to think about this for a little bit. There's a couple of stories. I'm going to choose the most recent one. ⁓ if you guys, if you remember, it wasn't that long ago that there was a, ⁓ a total lunar eclipse. And it was that night where it was, you know, minus 40 degrees with the wind chill. And I had a photography group and you know, it was their first night of the trip. So for a lot of people, it was their first time.

taking night photography, night photos, right? And that's a huge day for a lot of people because that is when you learn that you don't know where every button is. Because you're taking pictures. And that's also where you learn what that night photography is, is a lot of trial and error. You don't show up and just press a button and it's gonna be the perfect image and the one that you keep.

Now throw on top of that the fact that you've got some really interesting things happening with the moon, which you definitely want to have a long lens for and then really interesting things happening with the Northern Lights, which were happening all around the moon. And you want to usually have your, your shorter lens for that or your wider lens. And so it was, it, was a little bit of mayhem. Truly. I was thinking, I was thankful that I had a

I was training a guide at the time, that photography guide. So there was two of us at least with our group of 13 people, everybody was tripod pods, everyone trying to capture this moment. And we all know the lights are always moving and you don't always get them for a long period of time. So there's a sense of urgency with everybody and a lot of settings being changed. And I got to tell you, like I really, really froze my fingers at night changing everybody's camera gear. yeah.

Court Whelan (1:01:42)
Lasting

effects or no? Close.

Marlo (1:01:44)
It's fine. mean, I

have, I have some like lasting effects just from doing a lot of polar work, like in my toes and my fingers. I do get cold a lot faster and trust me, I've got like gloves and gloves on gloves systems, but yeah, I definitely had a few moments that night where I thought, okay, I gotta like slow it down a bit. And you know, if we don't all get the perfect image, then so be it. But I did push it because it was a very cool, very unique opportunity for people for sure.

especially with that lunar eclipse. So there's that. then can I share one more? So that's physically uncomfortable. Mentally uncomfortable. I have a big goal of seeing all eight bear species in the wild. And I was out looking for the spectacle bear in the cloud forests of Ecuador. And we were out there, it just so happened to be the time that the abacatillo plants were starting to ripen. So

Court Whelan (1:02:18)
course.

Marlo (1:02:40)
They're like these tiny little avocados that look like the size of an olive. They're really, they're kind of cool looking plants really. And the spectacle bear is one of the most elusive and shy of all of the eight bear species. They're really tough to find. And we were in a particular reserve where there was a lot of second growth forest and there was a lot of these avocado plants. And it just so happened that we were there when they were ripening, which is really tough to time because things, you know, the whole thing about being close to the equator and seasons and whatnot. And he...

So because we were there at that time, we could walk through the forest and listen to breaking branches and find, locate where these bears were. And I was with a bunch of people from the International Conference of Bear Research and Management. So we're all super bear nerds. And this was like a big goal of ours to see one in the cloud forest. This was years and years ago. So I think that there's more regulations on how many guides that you have and the ethics of bear viewing there.

So we were just looking for them in the cloud forest and we were able to, okay, yeah, breaking branches, go over there and, you know, watching the bear behavior and trying to make sure that they weren't stressed out by us. and one time we were walking through and we look up and we, we had no idea that there was a spectacle bear eating right, right on top of where we were. So it was looking down at us. We were looking up at it and they're really timid creatures. that like there was.

not a lot of safety risk for us, but it was just, you you're disturbing a critter while it's trying to eat, you know? And they make this really crazy kind of guttural sound, almost like Chewbacca when they're feeling like they're threatened. And, you know, we all had cameras and there some people, you know, trying to take photos and things like that. anyways, I just felt really bad for that critter. And it was like such a big moment for me to be able to see one of those animals. And so, you know, there was like, yeah, just some...

uncomfort guilt, also, you know, was when we finally backed off and the critter was feeling comfortable again, we were at the pictures that we were taking, going up, looking into the cloud forest, black animal with white background and backlit. was years and years ago, so the cameras weren't as good.

Court Whelan (1:04:48)
That sounds cool.

I see where you're going. Yeah, yeah, it's just is that moss or is that a bear or what is it? Yeah

Marlo (1:05:00)
I wasn't happy with my pictures from that. There were some

people who came up with some really great stuff, but I remember thinking like after the fact being so disappointed for like a few different reasons, but a lot of it too is that, you know, my pictures weren't really that great and it really changed, that changed my ethos as a photographer because I was like, I'm never going to have that again. I'm never going to put that much pressure on a picture from a, you know, from a critter because there's always going to be situations that you can't control and being too emotional about it, I think.

makes people more unethical about their photography. And also, ⁓ it's just not worth it to have to beat yourself up about that. You know what I mean? ⁓

Court Whelan (1:05:32)
Hmm.

Mm-hmm. Well, I can certainly

empathize about the first example having been in very similar situations and yeah when you're Photographing the northern lights or really anything? Nighttime and you're in those perfect settings and you're getting the shots Or at least you're getting closer to getting the shots when you're doing your trial shots at all especially in cold environments like you know, the excitement gets you to forego your senses sometimes and I just remember photographing northern lights sometimes and

thinking to myself, gosh, and you know, my gloves are off because I'm just, I have to get the shot in the moment. I have to press the right button. I can't do with my mittens and all that. And I'm just thinking, gosh, my fingers and hands have been numb for about a half an hour now. Is this, is this bad? And yeah, it gets you to question if you're, if you're doing the right and the safe thing, not to mention just the, the pain of, going through that and then rewarming it and all that. So totally hear you there. so we talked.

Marlo (1:06:27)
Yeah.

to you.

Court Whelan (1:06:39)
About some of your camera gear so I feel like I have a pretty good understanding of your kit, but this next question is ⁓ About non photo gear, but something that might be equally important So what is a piece of gear for nature photography that is surprisingly helpful that is not directly? camera related

Marlo (1:06:59)
Hmm. But it's not directly camera related?

Court Whelan (1:07:04)
Like it's not a lens. It can be an accessory.

Marlo (1:07:07)
Can I throw it back on you? What would you say to this answer, to this question?

Court Whelan (1:07:11)
Yeah.

well, I'll tell you the most interesting answer I've gotten from someone was from Eddie Savage and he just, without hesitation, he's like a towel, a microfiber towel. I'm like, what? It's like, yeah, I'm photographing and you know, the great bear rainforest and, and, know, in China and, and, you know, temperate forest there and it's raining a lot. And you'd be surprised how helpful it is when it's raining or misting, but it's not enough to put your camera away. That just a nice microfiber towel is enough to get you.

to stay out there, keep your gear functional and safe and dry, and even double as a way to clean your lens, especially if there's water on your lens, sometimes a little microfiber cloths, know, like the lens cleaning cloths are just not absorbent enough. So he thought without hesitation, don't forget to bring a towel. So I always, I now bring a towel with me on all my trips, like a little, you know, like a square foot camp towel, you know, just something small. It's like wash cloth size.

Marlo (1:08:02)
my gosh.

Court Whelan (1:08:07)
If I had to answer personally, I'd probably say some sort of lens pen or like a You know, I used to carry a toothbrush just to dust off my camera. I photographed in dusty dry environments a lot ⁓ So that might be my personal one, but yeah, if you don't have one no worries, but it's along that vein

Marlo (1:08:27)
They are both so typical of the places that you guys work, right? Like thinking of Eddie and where he got his start with photography in the Great Bear Rainforest. There's no wonder it's something like that. Yeah, I mean, it would be rain protection. The first thought that I had would just be that waterproof bag. Like I would just never, I would never take my camera into the field if I didn't have something that was super waterproof just to throw my camera into.

Court Whelan (1:08:50)
There you go. And that's a soft bag, right?

It's not like a hard shell Pelican case or anything.

Marlo (1:08:54)
Yeah, it is a soft bag. You can throw your Pelican case into there if you want. ⁓ But yeah, I make sure that there's padding around the camera and I'm really careful with it. But then I know I have it in hand all the time and that it's going to be protected. Because yeah, like I said, anything can happen. You just have your camera out and about and it just, I mean, we've all seen it, right? They can get smashed so quickly. Yeah.

Court Whelan (1:09:18)
Mm-hmm. I

hear you. hear you. Okay, so final question here. What is something that the Marlo of today would tell the Marlo just starting out on her nature travel and photographic journey?

Marlo (1:09:32)
Yeah, I would, I think I would just, I would, I would say just to come into it with, confidence, you know, I think that there's especially used to be, maybe there, maybe there still is, is this kind of, you know, boundary for photographers that you're, you can't be a professional photographer, a good photographer, or even call yourself a photographer unless you have crossed some imaginary line. And I can remember Annie van Dinther, ⁓

who is a manager for the guides for Natural Habitat Adventures, one of the companies that I work for. I was sitting with her from my very first polar bear trip and she said, who here is a photographer? You take photos, Marlo. And I was like, yeah, but I'm not a photographer. And she gave me a really hard time about that. And if you know Annie, then you would believe that. She's really an advocate for people to.

to one, grow their skills, but as women, be comfortable with the skills that we have and be able to share those with people. so, yeah, I wish that I had more confidence early on to start sharing my work because the more you share, the more you learn, the better you get. It has been my experience. so, it's just, I think I could have maybe grown even a little bit quicker.

Yeah, if I had that, but I figured it out.

Court Whelan (1:11:00)
Well, excellent

advice to end on Marlo. Marlo, thank you so much for joining today. I'm always inspired when talking to you, with you about all sorts of things. This one was particularly engaging just because I'm a photo nerd. You, I don't want to give you labels, but I think you're a photo nerd. You said you're a bear nerd. we'll see, you are now a photographer nerd. And yeah, I just really want to say thank you for joining today. Really had a lot of fun.

Marlo (1:11:24)
Yeah.

Yeah, this is great. Thank you.