Trying To Become a Developer in Your 30s. So Little Time Available...

After my last podcast episode with a mother trying to make it into tech, we ended up having a raw and open conversation about trying to become a developer in your 30s, habits, vulnerabilities, motivation, parenthood, and plenty of other things you may relate to if you're older and trying to become a developer.

Jessica Goodin (guest):
https://www.linkedin.com/in/jessicagoodin

Here's the previous episode if you want to check that out:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdS03dEPamM

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Transcript

Don Hansen: 0:13

I've been so busy, just like at night, and sometimes I'm like I really just want to play a game right now, but I know that that's not being efficient with my time and so yeah.

Don Hansen: 0:23

I'm trying to balance, like the fun and the work, away from what Like when she's napping I'm like, ok, I got all these chores to do, I could also code a little bit, or I could play a game or just like scroll on the Internet, I don't know, do something that takes my mind away from work for a minute. So balancing that has been interesting lately, but I'm working on it.

Jessica Goodin: 0:46

Yeah, I think you know everyone has this energy cap and when you start to reach the energy cap, you can think about trying to be productive all you want but all that ends up doing is becoming stress. It just turns into stress, anxiety that you're not doing everything that you possibly can be doing, and that leads to burnout. Right, I'm experiencing that. I'm experiencing a lack of balance in my life and I feel like I've been pushing so hard with, like trying to build this business up as, like YouTube, revenue has been dropping. I'm like trying to figure out what to do and I find that, like I don't know if this would help, but I find that I need to really go back to my roots of how I've dealt with stress in the past, and that's been high intensity cardio.

Jessica Goodin: 1:31

It's been meditation. It's been eating well again, right, finally, losing weight. It's been, and I feel like I have all of these answers to be able to balance my life and decompress and get that stress down. And for some reason, I'm like, for so long I was trying to tackle, like I just need to get this done and I can't play games. I can't afford the time. It's not productive, right, that thinking just spiraled me. But going back to my roots, that's the only way I know how to like get out of that spiral. But with a you know, with a child, it's very demanding.

Don Hansen: 2:04

I can only imagine it's crazy, because when you have a kid, they tell you, you know, be sure to make time for yourself and read a book or go for a walk or do something away from your kid for a while to get you out of that, because it's not running a bit. Running your own business is one of those things that makes you feel like if you do anything other than business stuff, you're wasting time or losing money, like kind of like what you're doing, and so it's really easy to forget that you should take time for you, otherwise your business will actually suffer in the long run. But they don't really talk to entrepreneurs that much about it. It's like, well, the harder you work, the more you make money and hustle culture and all that. But with the kid everybody's very open about take time for yourself, take time so much so that when I first had her I was like it wasn't even that hard, like why is everyone telling me to take time for myself? I'd rather spend time with her, like I don't need time for myself.

Don Hansen: 2:52

Then it started getting a little harder over time and like six months or so later I was like whoa, I'm not going to take time for myself. Whoa, I need time. I need to play a video game and not have this nagging feeling in the back of my head that I'm like not being a good mom for whatever reason. So, learning that balance between her and the coding it's, I'm getting there, but I'm right there with you.

Don Hansen: 3:16

The cardio and eating healthy and stuff For some reason that gives you such a confidence boost in life Like such a gosh. I'm really doing good right now because I ate good the past three or four days and you can feel it. You know mentally, but also physically it's awesome. So I'm doing that and I'm trying to read. I haven't brought video games back into my life yet, but soon, I keep telling myself, once I get hired as a developer, I will be able to play video games again. But then I'm going to be a mom of two very young kids with a very mentally taxing job, probably full time, and I'm probably not going to have time for it then either. So we'll see.

Jessica Goodin: 3:55

But see, it seems like a lot.

Don Hansen: 4:00

I think, so. I think so, but we'll see. And even if it's just I keep thinking to the social game nights, like if it's Jackbox or something or Mario Party. I mean it's not like I'm sitting there gaming for hours like I really want to, but if it's a social game where it's just for fun and just for the sake of like being social with people, I think that would be cool. That feels productive to me.

Jessica Goodin: 4:23

Because I'm playing alone.

Don Hansen: 4:26

Yeah, yeah, the only thing I mean playing alone is a stress reliever, but if, for some reason, I'm just like, I can't take this feeling that I'm being selfish, I'm just gaming. There's nothing productive here, but there is, it's like. It's like some people read for the relaxation, some people like to go for a walk, some people like to play games for a couple of hours. As long as it doesn't consume my life, I think it's healthy. Still trying to convince myself of that right now.

Jessica Goodin: 4:52

I mean, you have a lot of brilliant insight into how even you work and, yeah, it's hard to internalize that and really live that and act on that. But you have all the answers. You just said them.

Don Hansen: 5:10

Man, it's so interesting being at an age, and not only just being at an age. I'm like 34 and a half or something, I don't know how old I am 35. But that, getting to that age, you learn enough about yourself that you're like, wow, I'm actually comfortable in my own skin now. But then you become a parent and then the whole everything goes out the window and I'm like, oh, I got to relearn who I am as, like a parent, it's all different. It's so weird, it's very weird, and I'm trying to trying to be a coder, so how?

Jessica Goodin: 5:43

what's different about it Like why do you change?

Don Hansen: 5:47

It's really weird. So I mean, I've always been a really empathetic, selfless person. I give more than I take to people and that's gotten me in a lot of trouble. I got walked on in the past for being too kind. But so being a parent as far as like being selfless and always caring about the kid first, that didn't really change about me, but I'm definitely.

Don Hansen: 6:09

I'm more like I don't know analytical about things. I'm a very like fly by the seat of your pants, spontaneous. Let's just do it like whatever, whatever I'm feeling in the moment, let's just do it like starting projects and then not finishing them because I don't have the attention span. I'm very, very spontaneous. But now that I have a child, I have to think about somebody else before me. So now, about everything, I'm getting more serious. I think, okay, well, if I want to start this project, am I actually going to be in it or am I going to just throw it away again? I have to think about things before. I have to check to see if there's water in the pool before I jump in now which wasn't me before at all. So I'm kind of rediscovering myself. It's not necessarily as a parent, but it's what having a kid is how it's changing me in ways that I didn't know it would. It's really weird.

Jessica Goodin: 7:05

That's really interesting. Yeah, it sounds like it is changing you. It's like into someone entirely different.

Don Hansen: 7:12

It feels different. And looking back at memories coming up on Facebook from a couple years ago and all that, I'm like wow, I would go on trips and just do things. And back then I wasn't good with money either. So I'd look at those memories and be like I remember I went on this road trip and I had like five bucks in my bank account. What the heck was I thinking? But here I am. I survived, I guess, but I would never do that now, Never. I have a great credit score, I have savings and all that. My younger self would look to me now and be like you have a savings. That's crazy. How do you do that? This is weird. Getting older is weird, for sure it is.

Jessica Goodin: 7:52

There's ups and downs with it, but being like I don't know, that does sound kind of sunny and you just grew up.

Don Hansen: 7:59

Yeah, no, I did grow up. Yeah, looking back on myself, I was 30. I didn't act 30. Even when I was in my later 20s, you think you got a degree or getting your life together. No, I might not even be the only one Mid-20s and stuff. I think a lot of us didn't really know what we were doing. It wasn't just me?

Jessica Goodin: 8:22

No, it's not just you. I think that's really interesting. You have to look back. I have to look back on myself, and it's so easy to get caught up in what you're doing now, but that's I don't know, even just hearing you say it out loud. That's the key to it. What was I doing three years ago? The question has to come up. You might not expect yourself to be like you are at 35, but are you proud of yourself? Are you becoming a better person? I don't know, Because I feel like life can just get overwhelming if you don't analyze that stuff.

Don Hansen: 9:00

Yeah, and the craziest thing is, when I was younger I had such lofty goals for my future self that if I were to compare where I am now to where I thought I would be, I'm not where I thought I would be. I'm not doing this big, great career making all this money. The trajectory I was on wasn't leading to that. I don't know why. I thought I could get there Just magically one day. I would just work at a company making six figures. I have no idea why I thought that, but I'm actually really proud of myself, considering like the maturity that I've gone through and all that other stuff. I'm not making six figures. I don't have this big old company that I own and all this stuff, for whatever reason I thought I would, but I'm actually glad that I don't. I don't know, I wasn't on that trajectory. There's no way I could have even made it that way. But I'm proud of where I am now. Looking back on where I was, it's like, well, at least I'm not there anymore. I'm doing good.

Jessica Goodin: 9:57

That's awesome. That's really cool to hear. When you get that position, let me know if I'm prying too much, but what makes you feel like you need a full-time web dev position?

Don Hansen: 10:13

Honestly so that's still in the air. I'm very much. Here's another thing I didn't know about myself till I had a kid. I love spending so much time with my kid and she was under one. It's the baby years. They're not even doing anything, they just lay there, but the amount of time I spent with her, I couldn't imagine putting her in a daycare at three months old.

Don Hansen: 10:38

I don't want to do that again for the next one and I thought I would just be this working person where I have a kid, I take a maternity leave and I go back to work and send them off to school and everything's fine. But I have this new perspective that family time is really important to me and I thought you can either have a social life or a career or a family. I think it is. You can have two of the three, but you can't have all three is what they say, and I always thought I'd love to have a social life and a career, but family I mean, I don't know if I'll have that big of a family, but now I've flipped the script. I'm 100% about family.

Don Hansen: 11:14

So the goal is to have a job that supports the family, doing something that I love to do like making good enough money that we're really comfortable. I'm going to live within my means. I'm not going to try and make billions of dollars or anything stupid like that. I want to be comfortable. I want to be able to spend money on things that are fun and memory making, like camping and like going to the dunes and riding quads and fun stuff like that. So I want to be able to afford a fun life. But I don't know, I don't know, as I get closer to that, or maybe as I get hired as a full-time dev somewhere, my mind might change on that even more, because maybe I'll find that I don't spend any time with my kids and if that's the case I'm going to have to pivot again. But I think that's life you just always pivoting. Nobody knows exactly where they're going. So for now that's the dream, but I'm definitely open to it changing, should it not take me where I want to go?

Jessica Goodin: 12:12

Yeah, yeah, your kids seem like everything right now.

Don Hansen: 12:19

And.

Jessica Goodin: 12:20

I don't think that'll change though.

Don Hansen: 12:23

I don't think so. I don't think so either. Parents I think so far as to say I want to homeschool them, I want to be with them all the time, I want to teach them and I want to spend all this time, and I don't know. I think I'm changing my mind on that a little bit because I realize that's a full-time job in and of itself, probably, but I mean, they're also both girls, so I want to be an example to them and show them you can work in STEM, you can work a full-time career and still spend time with your family and have that balance. So I want to be the example that way too. I don't know. I feel like it's so far in the future that I don't need to figure it out yet. The time goes by so fast now that it's good to keep in mind. For sure.

Jessica Goodin: 13:10

And you know your idea of teaching your girls that they do have those opportunities if they want them. I think that's very admirable. Do you have to teach them when they're like two what happens when they finally go to school and you're not homeschooling? And what happens when you have a lot of time on your hands and you realize you have a lot of time on your hands and then you could really excel your career. You can be that inspiration you haven't till they're 18.

Don Hansen: 13:36

That's true, then you can go to them.

Don Hansen: 13:38

That's true. She's not going to remember anything right now, and the other one's definitely not considering. They're not even here yet. But yeah, that's, I think that's true. The first maybe, like, maybe even like, six or seven years of their life aren't going to be that. I mean, what do you want to be when you grow up? I want to be a dog, like. They don't know anything at that age. I'm not going to be telling them they can work in STEM when they're six years old. They're not going to know what that means. So yeah, I've got some time, for sure.

Jessica Goodin: 14:07

Yeah Well, I appreciate you sharing all that I do.

Don Hansen: 14:11

Yeah, oh, anytime. And the cool thing is the way I see it is, if you've experienced something and you've learned something in your life, it's cool to just share it, because somebody else might not know and they might be like, oh, that's, that's interesting. Or someone else might be like, oh my gosh, I went through the same thing. I'm not alone, because I've had a lot of aha moments like that with other people sharing stuff, and I'm like, thank you, I'm not the only one that feels this way. It's just good to, it's just good to have community in all aspects of life.

Jessica Goodin: 14:41

Yeah, I 100% agree you should. You mentioned this idea of, like you can talk to anyone, you should talk in front of the camera more. There are probably a lot of yeah, there are a lot of mothers like you that would love to just literally hear, kind of just be inspired by what you're pushing for and understanding, like you don't have it all figured out. No one does, and I'm sure other women think they do right, no one does. And so to hear hear someone like you going through the journey they're going through, or even if you're a little bit further and you've recognized some more things, a lot of content creation that's incredibly valuable for people is just documenting what you learned, and it doesn't mean betraying this Instagram perfect life. It means sharing real stories, real mistakes.

Don Hansen: 15:39

Yeah, and the two things about that that popped into my head is one if you do that, you yourself are going to look back at some of your first recordings or whatever you're doing and realize how much you've grown in that time, just by looking at where you started, and that that can be really inspiring. I thought about that with the boot camps. If I did finish a thing and put it in my portfolio and get hired somewhere, it would be cool to look back on this fear project I did for the hackathon and be like, look where I was, though. Like that's crazy, how much growth I've had. But the other thing is, with the like going on video and doing that is you realize that when you say you don't know everything, it's the weirdest thing.

Don Hansen: 16:22

I started an Instagram. This is embarrassing, but I started an Instagram when I wanted to learn how to code, thinking I'll be that person who's a stay at home mom that's trying to learn how to code and maybe I can bring other people along for the ride. Maybe they're learning to, or maybe they already know stuff and they want to help, or maybe in the future they're going to find my stuff and find inspiration there. So I went on Instagram and looked at a whole bunch of different like users and stuff that kind of do the same thing and, like you said, the perfect Instagram thing. I saw a lot of that. It was a lot of glamorized fancy backgrounds for their computers and lights and a lot of girls, a lot of girls. I look for girls specifically just to see you know where I fit, and a lot of the girls are just so pretty and I'm like whoa, none of that is me. I can't do the fancy background. I'm not going to sit here and teach everybody how to do these little things, like I don't. I just want to. I just want to share my struggles. But nobody's doing that, none of the girls especially. There's no stay at home moms at all, but there's no girls that are that are sharing how hard things are, and I was like I don't want to, not, but I also don't want to be the only one out there that's struggling, because what if I don't get any views?

Don Hansen: 17:39

But I feel like if you do share your struggles, a lot more people can relate to you and maybe they'll you get, maybe you'll get views because of that. I don't know, not just because you're this pretty girl doing tech because that seems they get a lot of people. But I'm like, if I, if I actually share the struggles, it's embarrassing to do that sometimes you, you vulnerable, vulnerable lies. You make yourself vulnerable I don't know how to say that. You make yourself vulnerable to people you don't even know. It's hard, and so I stopped. I started the Instagram, I posted a few things, compared myself and was like nope, not going to do that per Instagram thing, and I shut it down. But I don't know. I think it would be fun, I think it would be cool If not forgetting anything from it, just for maybe helping other people and then recording my progress for myself. I think that would be good.

Jessica Goodin: 19:06

That's the fear. That's why most people don't create content. It's because they're going to, they're introducing a vulnerable side of them to other people and that's scary. It's really scary to have people judge you. It's very overwhelming sometimes and it you know, if you don't have 100% confidence which no one has it makes you question your own ability, your own intelligence, your own looks, your own, just like happiness in life. Are you doing the right? Like everything, you start to question it. Right, but I find that vulnerability is only like.

Jessica Goodin: 19:45

The only person that has control over your vulnerability is you, and it's a very easy thing to say. But, like, as you build content, as you try, as you get people that make fun of you online, as you get, like, you build a thick skin. It's a very natural thing, it's a very natural way to progress online, and I've had really really shitty things said about me. I've had, I've heard many shitty things say, said about other content creators, and it's not like you're invincible from it, but you do develop a thick skin, like some of the things that I hear now, like I would have like really been stressed out about when I first started, right, but, like most people, they just they get inside their own head and they don't create 25 videos, 50 videos, 100 videos or a post or whatever. And because it's literally just quantity that gets you past that fear. And once you're past that fear, now you're that unique person that isn't trying to glamorize everything. Now you're just sharing a real story and that's when you really build a true, real audience that has your back, that you're going to also find like, the more I talked, the more about my content.

Jessica Goodin: 20:56

It just I found that I thought I was the only one experiencing this, but when people would leave comments and people would be like, damn, I can't believe. Like you shared that. I'm like, oh cool, it's not just me, right, and I'm not the most I don't you know word things politically correct and I'm not gracious with it and but but like people can relate to me on a little bit more of a raw level and you realize like there are a ton of people that have just like, shut their mouths because they like social media is flooded with fakeness, fake people, fake stories, and so they shut their mouths because, just like you, they don't want to be that one person that is a loser but in reality, like everyone else and like majority of people are truly, truly struggling and think exactly like you think, and you are the majority You're not the minority in your situation. But when you start sharing your story enough, that's when you start realizing that.

Don Hansen: 21:58

Yeah, and it's crazy, because I like super empathetic people person, right, I take things to heart so quickly, like I'm the type that wants everybody to like me and when I was younger, if somebody didn't like me, even if it was for a stupid reason, I'd try to get them to like me again and that was really done, like, looking back now I know better than that, but but I'm still a little. I hate the word sensitive so much, but I can still be a little sensitive. But I feel like if if I have a fewer amount of people that actually get something from me sharing and actually can connect with me, then it'll be easier to get through all the other stuff. Because, you're right, social media and people do they just hide behind their keyboards and they'll say anything. It's horrible, it can ruin some people and that's why a lot of people will start and then stop, just like you said. But I think if there's just some people that I can help, even just the tiniest amount, I think that could help me get through that.

Don Hansen: 23:00

If I did share and be on a camera and all that fun stuff, it would be a big growth thing for me as a person. Because getting to the other side of that, where I do have that thick skin and I've shared a bunch of videos and I'm kind of getting over that. That would be a huge personal growth for me. I think I can't think of another way for me to grow that side of myself, because I'm a people person. In person you don't really have that problem as much in person because people aren't going to say things like that in person as much, and if they do, you just walk away. But online it's vicious. It's so vicious so I maybe I will. I don't know, I'll see. That's going to be a whole nother mountain to climb, but I don't know, we'll see. If it's for the growth on the other side I just might try and share.

Jessica Goodin: 23:48

And it doesn't have to be super public. What happens when you join a group with other mothers trying to get into tech and you just share your story and you just get a little bit of inspiration and support from them? I think even then you'll find that other people are experiencing similar things to you and you're not alone in that. I am like I am someone that actually is very, very empathetic and sensitive and, like a lot of people probably don't realize it because they just pop into a live stream and I'm roasting someone but like, yeah, if I can, if I can do this and I can take a lot of these comments, anyone can you can. Anyone can.

Jessica Goodin: 24:27

It's, yeah, perceptions, weird online, but you only really discover what you are made of when you actually follow through with it and you just realize, like this, because you're, you're kind of on the consumer side, you don't really, you haven't really dove into content creation, but once you get to the other side, you keep creating, you get past those comments, then you create those real connections and those conversations and now you're truly impacting people's lives. And now it's like there's there is gold at the at the end of the tunnel and it's so far away, it's so hard to see until you actually take the action to start creating content and just go through the mud. You're doing that, what?

Don Hansen: 25:06

is it called Tough Mudder, Tough Mudder? The moment you said the mud, I was like ooh, I know what that was a reference to.

Jessica Goodin: 25:12

Yeah, exactly, you're just tracking through that mud until you finally get to the finish line and you're going to feel much better for it and like, just looks, it looks very different once you grind something out and you hit that finish line. The more often you do that, the more you can carry it over into becoming a developer and to becoming a truly amazing mother and to like supporting your community, like all of these things open up and activate for you, and it just kind of starts with you Like forcing yourself to grind out something that you really want to do but you know you're afraid to do. It's like literally just tackling that fear. So don't create content just because I told you to create content. But I am saying that talking with many women getting into tech. You are not unique and alone. Yeah, you know your concerns and your vulnerabilities. Like you are unique in a sense where your situation is a little bit different, but like they're very, very, very relatable stories that you just haven't heard yet.

Don Hansen: 26:07

Yeah, and even if there isn't a women's group that have moms or whatever, maybe I can make one. I don't know. I've tried to look for moms getting into coding. It's very, it's very niched down. There's not a lot of. There's not a lot of groups that are stay at home parent trying to learn how to cut. I found one person on some random discord channel was dad actually, who's a stay at home dad, and he's working on coding and he shared his experience. He's been hired since, but it was cool to talk to him and I was like where are the rest of us? Where all these fees? Like I don't know, I've never talked to one other than you. I'm like, wow, all right, maybe I need to make a group or something. Maybe they're just out there and they're scared, like me, they're scared to get out.