Mucky Middles and Using Book Coaches with Dallas Woodburn - Thanks, Carissa, for Ruining My Life

Marissa chats with Dallas Woodburn about her new YA contemporary - THANKS, CARISSA, FOR RUINING MY LIFE - as well as not giving up on a book that you really love, no matter how many years or drafts it takes; creating powerful character arcs by determining the endpoint goal, then figuring out the challenges that character will need to face to get there; the interesting challenge of writing a romance in which the characters are physically distanced from each other; how a book coach might just be the cheerleader and accountability partner you need to help you get your book written; the value of writing for yourself, regardless of whether or not you want to seek publication; and some tips on dealing with the universally frustrating mucky middle and shiny new idea syndrome.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:10

Hello, and welcome to the happy writer. This is a podcast that aims to bring readers, more books, to enjoy and to help authors find more joy in their writing. I am your host, Marisa Meyer. Thank you for joining me. I am so happy this week. I am bubbling over with happiness because here in two short weeks or one week from the time you guys are hearing this, I will be in Disney world. I am so excited. I am such a Disney. I love the parks. And as many of you know, I have been training to run my very first half marathon, the Disney princess half marathon, which is happening on February 27th. And I have worked so hard to accomplish this thing that see like an absolutely impossible goal, not all that long ago. And so I'm feeling very confident, but also very nervous. Um, so send me good running vibes. Um, please. And I can't wait to post about the experience on social media, if you wanna check it out. Uh, and then of course, after the race, I get to spend a week in Disney world with my family and I am just really, really excited. So I just can't even express how happy that is making me right now. Of course, I am also so happy to be talking to take days, guest she's an award-winning writer, a book coach, and the host of the overflowing bookshelves podcast. Her debut by novel, the best week that never happened was a finalist and the international book awards and her newest novel. Thanks Carissa for ruining my life just came out a few ago. Please. Welcome Dallas Woodburn.

Speaker 2: 2:10

Hi Marissa. Thanks so much for having me.

Speaker 1: 2:13

Thank you so much for being here. I have to say your name, Dallas Woodburn. You sound like a fictional character.

Speaker 2: 2:22

I've gotten that before actually, um, first boyfriend, his friends, when he told him about me, they were like, really that's her name? Is that a made up name?

Speaker 1: 2:32

You sound like a cowboy. I feel like you should be writing westerns. What are you doing with your life?

Speaker 2: 2:38

Yes, maybe I should switch over. Yeah. And it's funny. Um, my dad is a sports writer and so people always thought we, I in California and he wrote, he covered the LA sports teams, but people always thought maybe he was just a big Cowboys fan or something, but it's actually a it's, it's a family name. It was my grandpa's middle name, uh, with Dallas.

Speaker 1: 3:01

Aw, I like that.

Speaker 2: 3:03

Yes. Yeah. It's nice having that connection.

Speaker 1: 3:06

Yeah. Yeah. We have, um, the middle names of the women. Our family have been passed down for a number of generations. Um, and so that's, that's kind of our thing too, but nothing is unique as Dallas.

Speaker 2: 3:18

Oh, thank you. Yeah, I do. I do like it. I like having a unique name with a story behind it.

Speaker 1: 3:25

Yeah. Yeah. And it works with Woodburn too. Like the whole package just sounds very like intentional. Oh,

Speaker 2: 3:31

Well thank you. I will tell my parents good job.

Speaker 1: 3:35

Marisa Meyer says. Um, all right. Um, so the question we start with for all of our guests here, uh, is it, I wanna know about your origin story, um, as a writer, and I know from some of our emails, you had quite a long path, quite a long journey to becoming a published author. So I'm very excited to hear about what were, what, how did the journey go for you?

Speaker 2: 4:04

Yes. So I mentioned my dad is a journalist. Um, so he, when I was growing up, he was a sports columnist for our local paper. And he now is more of a general interest columnist and writes books. And so looking back, I've always felt like, like I had an advantage or maybe kind of like a little bit of a sneak peek in that I grew up with a writer in my family and I got to watch him at work. And I think for a lot of us, maybe when we grew up loving reading, you know, I loved reading, I loved books, I loved making up stories. Um, but I was just always really a aware that they didn't just magically appear in the library on the bookshelves like that there was someone who actually wrote them and that was something that you could do. Um, and so I just always, always wanted to be a writer. Um, and I actually Marisa and I was in fifth grade, my school, they had this grant where you could do something creative and I was$50. And so I applied to put together a little book of my short stories and my poems and my illustrations, and I got the grant. And so this was back in like the late nineties. I remember going to Kinkos, um, to like print up copies of my book. It was, you know, self-publishing, I guess, back in the day. Um, and it was just such a great experience because my classmates were so supportive. I like sold out of my first printing. I had to go back and print out more. Um, and it just was such a wonderful experience for me to realize, I love writing for myself, but I also loved sharing my work with others and like having that connection with others. So I ended up, I studied writing in college, went on to grad school and studied fiction writing and, um, just wrote, wrote, wrote. And my first novel that ended up getting published the best week that never happened. It was my fourth novel manuscript that I had completed. Um, and so it's funny sometimes they don't get published in the order that you write them. So thanks Carissa, which just came out. I had started right that one. Um, about a decade ago when I was in grad school, it was my kind of secret fun ye project that I was working on, um, late at night when all of my classmates were writing like very serious literary fiction. Um, so yeah, it's just extra exciting. I mean, it's gone through many, many revisions and drafts. I first wrote that first draft, but, um, it just feels extra special to have it out in the world now, because it, like you said, it's been a long, it's been a long journey.

Speaker 1: 6:48

It is an entire decade. That's incredible.

Speaker 2: 6:51

Yes. Yeah. And I think I was reflecting on it the other day, um, about just why, like, why did I keep trying think, I just love my main characters so much. Like whenever I kind of wanted to maybe give up on it, I would just imagine them and I just didn't wanna give up on them. You know, I wanted to just keep trying, you know, submitting it again, seeing if somebody else related to the book, the way that I just love the character so much.

Speaker 1: 7:16

Yeah. So writing this book over the course of an entire decade was that like, like you would dabble and maybe write a chapter two and then set it aside for six months a year and then come back or were you like, uh, writing multiple drafts and okay. A year later let's go back and revise it again a year later, let's go back and revise it again.

Speaker 2: 7:38

It more like that second option. So I, the, the first draft, I'm a little bit of a slow drafter and I was in grad school. So I was working on some other projects, uh, for my courses and teaching. So the first draft was kind of a slow process, um, where I would come back to it and fits and starts. And then, and then, yeah, I would be, you know, finishing the draft, setting it aside, getting feedback from, from beta readers, revising it, setting it aside, submitting it, setting it aside, coming back. So it was definitely not a continual decade long of just of only working on this, this book. Um, and actually, like I said, I, I ended up going on and I wrote two other manuscripts after this one. Um, so it's more just like a decade of, I guess, first spark of an idea to publication.

Speaker 1: 8:30

Yeah. Did you go through multiple rounds of querying with it?

Speaker 2: 8:35

I did. So, um, I actually, I, I had a literary agent when I wrote this book, um, and they ended up, uh, not wanting to submit it. So I ended up, um, finding a different literary agent who submitted it and we didn't get it. We got some, you know, manuscript requests, but just no one ultimately went with it. And then similarly, um, I ended up kind of long story. I ended up having a different agent who set it out and didn't get anything. So it just was a lot of, um, high hopes and then kind of disappointments. But I do feel like over the years, you know, I, every time I went back to it and worked on it some more, I just feel like it got better and better. And, um, I'm a big believer in timing and as frustrating as it was when I really wanted it to be published, you know, five years ago when it was out on submission and it, and it wasn't picked up. I, I, looking back, I do feel like it worked out the way it was supposed to, because I think it's the, it's the best version of itself now.

Speaker 1: 9:41

Yeah. And I think that it's very timely for right now, too. And with all of the, I mean, we'll talk a little bit more about this. Um, cause listeners haven't even heard what the book is about yet, but, um, you know, there's a lot of, uh, body positivity elements in this story, um, that I think, you know, are, are just really powerful for young readers to hear right now.

Speaker 2: 10:02

Thank you. Not

Speaker 1: 10:03

That they wouldn't have been powerful 10 years ago, but I just think that that's a, a big thing that we've all become so much more aware of.

Speaker 2: 10:09

Agreed. And I think that looking back at my journey with my own feelings about my body and, um, food, freedom and body positivity, I think that in the same way that my characters go through a journey in the book, you know, I, I really feel like I've come a long way with that too. So, um, I, I agree. And thank you for saying that.

Speaker 1: 10:29

Yeah. All right. We'll come back to that cause I do wanna, um, talk about that a little bit more. Um, but first would you please tell listeners what you, this book even about, tell us about thanks, Carissa for ruining my life, which is such a fun title to say,

Speaker 2: 10:44

Thank you. I like to describe it as the movie, Brittany runs a marathon, meets the movie, some kind of wonderful. I've also heard it compared to the Taylor swift song, you with me. Um, so we have two, it's a dual POV, there's two main characters and, uh, one of them is rose. She is the title Krisa she's Chris's twin sister. And then the other one is Brad. And he is Chris's ex-boyfriend, Krisa breaks up with him in the first chapter. And I like to think of it almost as a triangle structure where Carissa is not a POV character in the novel, but she's almost like the linchpin that connects my two POV characters, at least at the beginning of the book. And they both feel like she has ruined their lives in the opening chapters. Um, Brad, because she breaks up with him out of the blue and he's heartbroken and trying to get her back and then rose because, um, Chris has signs rose up for this reality television show called, um, help me lose weight and live again. And so rose is being shipped off to Texas, uh, to be on this reality TV show. And she is very upset at Krissa for ruining her life as well. Um, but as a novel goes on, we see that maybe there are some surprising ways that maybe their lives aren't ruined after all.

Speaker 1: 12:10

So right off the bat, one of the things that really jumped out to me when I was reading the book is that you set yourself up for a very interesting writing challenge, uh, in that this is a romance between these two point of view characters. And yet from page one, they are physically separated from each other. They are in two separate states and rose being a contestant on this reality TV show is not allowed to have communication with people back home. So from the beginning, like you're making it clear, there's going to be romance developing, but as a reader and a writer, I was just like, well, how on earth are we gonna to make that happen? And they're never together. They can't talk, they never see each other. Uh, so very unique situation in a romance novel, um, for you, what PO what challenges did that pose and what were some things that you were actively working on to try to develop the romance throughout the story?

Speaker 2: 13:14

Such a great question. And I think so one of the themes in the book is this idea of, yes, it it's a romance novel between my two main characters, but I think also it's this idea of not to sound cheesy, but, um, like a romance with yourself and really learning to love yourself and accept yourself. And I personally feel like we, um, when we're at a good place in our lives where we're really happy with ourselves is when we kind of open the door for the right romance to come into our lives. So in some ways it was helpful to have my characters separated for at least the first part of the novel. So they could really, um, I don't wanna say work on themselves, but kind of just like explore themselves separate from each other. Um, and, and kind of just get into like who they are, um, alone, because rose is in this new situation where she's in this whole new place and away from her family and friends and away from her typical daily life. And then similar Brad he's in the same place, but he's his girlfriend's broken up with him. He feels awkward around his friends. So he also is kind of feeling like he's alone in a lot of ways. So it helps me to have them alone while still thinking of each other, uh, before in the middle of the book is when they get to actually have some scenes together. And it was really exciting to get, to finally have them in the same place, interacting.

Speaker 1: 14:46

I bet as, as a writer who loves romance, I'm always just like, but when do we get to see them together again? Um, so I can imagine that for you, you were like, finally, finally we got here.

Speaker 2: 14:57

Yes. And I will say to Marisa, I kind of jump around as I write. So I did write, I didn't write it completely in order. So I did skip around and write some of those scenes when they were together, uh, before I wrote some of the earlier themes too, because I just couldn't wait to get there.

Speaker 1: 15:13

I know that feeling so much, like sometimes you need to release some of the tension for yourself before you can go back and actually write the other stuff. Um, well, I love this idea of writing a romance with yourself or these characters kind of having a romance with themselves. Um, and that makes perfect sense in the context of this book, because we really do have two very significant character arcs, um, for both Brad and for rose, you know, they do, they change a lot. I, they they've changed how they see themselves a great deal for you when you are writing. At what point in the process are you really starting to like dig into the character arc and how are these characters gonna grow and change? Is that like central to the original initial planning for you? Or is it something that you kind of start working on and developing in later draft

Speaker 2: 16:13

Such a great question. I think for this book, it was pretty central at the beginning where I sort of knew where they were when they started. And then I had a sense of where I wanted them to be at the end, but I didn't quite know how they were gonna get there. And a lot developed as I was working on the actual a plot, um, was sort of seeing how they were going to come to certain realizations about themselves. And I was also interested in exploring how they see themselves reflected in other people, um, and how sometimes they think that other people see them versus maybe how other people actually see them. So it's interesting having the dual POV where you're able to explore the same scene from different perspectives. And so for example, my main character rose believes at the beginning that Brad would never see her as anything, but a friend, but then we get some memories or some things from Brad's perspective where he sees rose in a completely different way. Um, you know, and he even thinks at one point, I wish she could see herself the way that I see her. And so, so I think the dual POV sort of helped me get to explore my characters from different angles. So think about their own character arcs and also the ways that they see each other, if that makes sense,

Speaker 1: 17:42

It does. It does. And I loved getting both perspectives. I think when it comes to like these character arcs, dealing with more like self love and, uh, self appreciation and like this idea that I, I am a great person and I deserve amazing things in my life. I think we see, um, in young adult fiction, we see a lot of that from the female perspective. I thought it was really refreshing to also see that the guy's perspective, um, cuz they deserve self love too.

Speaker 2: 18:13

Yes. Yes. I agree. Um, and I'm, I'm very close. I have a younger brother he's just two years younger than I am and we're, we're very close and he's one of my early readers. Um, people ask me sometimes like, what was it like writing from a guy's perspective? And I'm not saying I did it a hundred percent, you know, accurately, I tried my best, but it's helpful to have him kind of, to play ideas off of. And um, and he's just such an amazing person. And he, we, we have just a very, um, open relationship where we talk with each other a lot about what we're going through. And so when I was dating, I would, you know, call him and talk about out things and similar with him. And um, so I think maybe some of Brad had to do with, um, just thinking about my brother, who is this amazing person and he's getting married. Um, later this year he found he found his person, but um, there was some time where he would, you know, call me and say, I don't know what I'm doing wrong. Like, I don't know. I, no one seems to have, you know, like me and I would just tell him, you're amazing. Like just keep being yourself. And so I think that's where a lot of Brad's character came from too.

Speaker 1: 19:20

Yeah, no, it can be helpful to have someone in real life, not necessarily to basic character off of, but just like have that. I don't know that mental and emotional guidance like, okay, there's some similarities here and I, I feel connected to this character because of them.

Speaker 2: 19:38

Yes. Yeah, exactly. I dunno about you Marisa, but I feel like when I'm treating characters, sometimes in the beginning I have a person I'm sort of thinking about with them and then quickly they become their own. But like how you've seen at least emotionally, maybe to have someone that you're basing them on to help you feel more connected.

Speaker 1: 19:58

Yeah. No, definitely. It makes a lot of sense. Um, I'm wondering, do you have any like tips or advice for writing character arcs in particular? Um, because there are both of the characters do go through such pretty big emotional transformations. Like what would you say to a writer who's maybe struggling with that?

Speaker 2: 20:21

Yes, I, um, so I would say I have always been, I've always thought more of a character driven writer as opposed to a plot driven, but it really helped me when, um, one of my teachers in graduate school was talking about the ways in, in which character arc and plot arc are connected. And so this idea of, with your character arc, you want to see how the events that transpire, um, kind of push against your character's biggest weakness or biggest fear or biggest stumbling block have to kind of get over or get through in order to reach their goal, like become who they're meant to be, get what they want. And so for me that was really helpful to think about plot and character connected in that way, like, okay, the rose, you know, for example, she starts out feeling really insecure about herself and like she doesn't quite belong. And I know by the end of the book, I want her to feel so comfortable and her skin and feel very accepted and feel like she can be her authentic self. So what do I have to have happen in the story to challenge her beliefs in order? So she can kind of like break through them and get to that place where she is supposed to be. And I think it's a little bit counter are intuitive sometimes and that our characters have to get broken down before they can build themselves back up. Like it might sometimes feel like two steps forward, one step back where you're actually, um, yeah, like challenging your character's notions about themselves. Um, in order to break through those, to get to their, the change is that they're experiencing. So for me, that was really helpful to think of plot and character connected in that way and the arcs of the plot and the character being kind of parallel and also intertwined.

Speaker 1: 22:21

Yeah, no, as you're talking, I was thinking about, you know, how sometimes you see those, uh, diagrams that are like a visual represent of plot structure and it's like, it starts down at the bottom and then you go up and then there's a little dip and then you go up a little bit higher and then a dip. And usually they're used to show like how the plot of this story should, you know, be building to this climax, but there should be setbacks, blah, blah, blah. And as you were talking, I was like, it's very similar with the, the character arc itself. Like I, I love this idea of the, the two steps forward. One step back feels very natural and very like, that's how we are in real life. You don't just conquer everything. You have to try and fail a few times.

Speaker 2: 23:06

Yes, exactly. And I think that helps the character arc feel more authentic or feel more last steam, uh, when our characters do have some of those highs and lows, um, like a rollercoaster, like you're mentioning Disney new world it's sort of is like, I have those ups and downs. It's not just one straight line.

Speaker 1: 23:22

Yes, for sure. Uh, I'm curious, knowing that you worked on this book for so long, how much did the, the final published version change from that first draft? More than 10 years ago?

Speaker 2: 23:39

I am definitely an underwriter and not my first drafts tend to be pretty lean and I'm editing and revising I'm most often I'm adding things. So adding scenes, adding details, um, just adding things to make the world more, more rich. And so my first draft, there were definite, uh, scenes in the final draft that weren't there at the beginning. Um, and also working on it over that span of time. There were things that I had to change as far as, um, like technology and References. Um, yeah, just interesting. Going back when you're editing something and you catch an old reference, um, like I think actually Marisa, I sent you the, the arc of it that I think still had landlines in there that I had went through and, you know, switched those out. Cuz some early readers were saying we don't have landlines anymore. Um, so yeah, just things like that. Um, and uh, just some, some details with subplots and um, some of my side characters just sort of flushing them out more. Um, but I think in general, the spine of the story, uh, really remained the same.

Speaker 1: 24:53

No, it is so funny with technology. I feel like this is one of the biggest drawbacks maybe to writing contemporary fiction is that like, by the time the book is published, it's already outdated. Things are changed so quickly.

Speaker 2: 25:08

It's so true. It's yeah, it's really funny. I was talking to a friend rich. She said, well, maybe you should just set all your books in the early two thousands and then you won't

Speaker 1: 25:16

Have to worry about it. Yep. We can't argue with you then. Um, I wanna talk about the third character in our triangle of sorts. Uh, let's talk about Carissa, um, who is of course the title character, thanks Carissa for ruining my life. Uh, and what I love about her in particular is that as a reader, you can shift your perspective from thinking she's the villain of the story. Or if you look at it from this angle, suddenly she becomes the hero of this story, which is very fun to think about, uh, for you. Like, which do you think she is? Is she the villain or is she the hero?

Speaker 2: 26:05

I love how you describe her. I think she is both. And, um, and actually Marisa. So when I first started writing this book, I was just getting over my first breakup with my college boyfriend. Um, and, and I was actually the one who broke up with him. And so I think some of that was inspiration for the book. Um, but I was, I was sort of like the Carissa in that scenario because I'm sure he felt like it was out of the blue and I was the one who broke up with him. And so I'm very different than Carissa is, but, um, I sort of feel like I was trying to, um, I guess explore that, that situation from a different perspective. And so I never saw Carissa as the villain, even though she does some things that, um, are very frustrating and some people, you know, maybe even a little bit cruel, but I, I do feel like her heart is in the right place than like she's trying to help, even though she often goes about it the wrong way. Um, but something also interesting about her is we only see her from others' perspectives. So we only see her from her twin sister Rose's perspective and her ex-boyfriend Brad's perspective who have very complex relationships with her. Um, so it was important to me that by the end of the book, hopefully the reader sees her in a little bit more of a balance light as her own person. Who's just, you know, trying to live her life in the best way that she can and is making mistakes. Um, but is also kind of learning. She has her own character arc, well, she's learning her own things too, even though it happens, um, off the page.

Speaker 1: 27:48

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that she also is like her character art could continue, you know, um, I think that she is a very rounded character. Um, but that we we've only gotten like a, a of that story. I think that she's got a lot further to go, but you can like see it in progress.

Speaker 2: 28:10

Yes. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. And she was fun to write sometimes her, um, she's very different than I am in a lot of ways. And so Simon is kind of fun to write her, um, mean girl as, um, you know, lines, dialogue, and just kind of her, um, character is fun to

Speaker 1: 28:27

Write. Yeah. Um, I am wondering, so there is, of course in like so many, uh, so much contemporary fiction or so many movies, um, there is this mean girl stereotype. How would you, how did you keep her from becoming just that the stereotype, the cliche, like what can writers do to make sure they're not falling into that?

Speaker 2: 28:54

Well, thank you for saying that. I'm glad that she seemed rounded to you. I would say, um, I think when, when characters are able to not be stereotypes in our heads, it makes us E zero to present them on the page as real people. And so, um, you know, for Krissa, I think I really tried to nail down like what I could identify with, um, you know, in my life or my memories. Um, and I guess for all my characters, but so especially when that maybe you feel like could fall into some sort of, um, cookie cutter or, or like stereotype, are there ways that you can, um, present the other side of them or present aspects that go against that stereotype or against that narrative? So Carissa throughout the book is often a very kind of hard edged character, but through the course of the book, we do get to see moments when like her mask slips off and that facade kind of falls away. And so to me that was important hopefully in presenting, um, a deeper side of her than, than perhaps the version that she shows the rest of the world.

Speaker 1: 30:08

Yeah, no, I loved her. I, I love kinda an antagonistic character, but then I also love when it is revealed that there's more going on beneath the surface.

Speaker 2: 30:20

I agree. It's one of my favorite things as a reader to get to kind of peek into, um,

Speaker 1: 30:25

The character. No, I know. And I think that we all have memories of our younger years, um, or maybe even not so younger years, you know, we all make mistakes and we all have things that were like, oh, I really could have been nicer there, or I could have done this differently or said this differently. And I think it's important to see that in fictional characters sometimes and realize like we're all doing our best and we're all trying to be better.

Speaker 2: 30:51

Yes, yes, exactly.

Speaker 1: 30:54

Uh, so earlier we touched, touched on this idea of body positivity, um, which is a, a huge part of the story, particularly rose, um, who has been kind of forced into this weight loss reality TV challenge. Um, so talk a little bit about writing that theme into the story and like, what are maybe some of the, the deeper messages that hoping readers are gonna take away from this?

Speaker 2: 31:26

I love this question and thank you for touching upon this. Um, because it's a really important part of the book for me and my heart and, um, just, yeah, the message that I'm hoping gets across to readers is really this idea of loving ourselves, um, for who we are just really appreciating our bodies for all that they can do and all that they do for us. And, um, you know, for, for rose, she really goes through this both internal and external transformation throughout the story. But, um, as she says at the end, like a lot of it was, she's still the same person that all along, she's just more of herself. It's almost like she just is feeling more fully like she is herself and she's able to shine her light and she's not hiding herself anymore. And so I think that her external transformation really mirrors that, um, just like acceptance of herself and just really being amazed by her body and all that it can do. Um, I think that at different points in, in my life, and especially when I think back to when I was in high school or college, like, I don't feel like I really appreciated my body as much as I do now. Um, just in all the things that it allows me to do, whether that's travel or like go for a run or climb mountains, or, um, I have a daughter like play with her. And so I'm hoping that readers, um, I guess, think about their own relationships with, with their bodies and the ways that they might, um, approach that with more gratitude and, um, and just accept themselves. I think when I, if I could capture Rose's journey, you know, in one word, um, it would really just be acceptance.

Speaker 1: 33:17

No, I think it's a really imp message. I'm wondering, was it challenging because you do have, um, you know, she does have a physical transformation, which is almost, I mean, to me reading it it's very secondary. Like she, she does lose weight as a part of this reality TV show, um, which we're, we're kind of assuming like if it wasn't happening, then she probably would've kicked been kicked off the show at some point. And then that would like stop the plot dead in its tracks. Um, and yet at the end for me, what was coming across was not, oh, I lost the weight now. I love myself. It was like, I've loved myself all along and now I just have the confidence to show it. And it, it wasn't about the weight loss. It was about learning that like who I am on the inside is fricking awesome. Um, and everyone should appreciate that. Was it challenging for you trying to kind of balance those two things, like have a weight loss element without like, saying like, but not about the weight loss it's about more than that?

Speaker 2: 34:25

Yes. Yes. And when I was, um, when I was just getting the idea for this book and, and trying to think about Rose's arc and the plot, um, I was trying to make things really hard for her. I think it's good if we could make things hard for our characters and put our characters in, um, just really tough situations. And so for her, like if I were, when I was brainstorming, like, what are the, just that, what would be like the worst possible thing that could happen to her? It would be having to go through this internal transformation, but, um, like on this reality TV show where there's cameras ever everywhere, and there's so much focus on, um, on this, you know, external change. And I mean, I do feel like in this, this day and age of social media, um, just in some ways that we, we have kind of are, are on reality shows, um, ourselves, and it's, it's just become more and more pronounced in the decades since I've started writing this book. Um, and so, yeah, I, it was really important to me that I'm glad you said that to you, her internal transformation and just her realization that she's been, um, this beautiful Swan all along, there's this quote about, you know, whether, what someone saw her as an ugly duckling turned into a Swan and like, no, she was this Swan all along. It just took her a while to see it. Um, but so I, I wanted it to be, um, I guess to really push her by putting her in this situation where, um, everything just seems like on stage, she can't really hide anymore.

Speaker 1: 36:03

Yeah, that sounds awful. I would hate that. So wait,

Speaker 2: 36:06

Me

Speaker 1: 36:07

Too. Um, okay. I do wanna switch gears a little bit, cause I know you have lots of irons in the fire. Um, in addition to being a writer, you are also a podcaster and a book coach. Uh, so for listeners who are like, what is a book coach? What is a book coach?

Speaker 2: 36:29

I love being a book coach. And it is, if you imagine having a coach for other areas you're of your life, like, um, um, if you grew up playing sports and you had a coach for different sports that you played, um, it's similar to that, but it is helping people, um, write books. So I have a, an online community it's called thriving authors academy. And it's for people who really wanna write a book, they have a book in their heart. They've tried writing it before and they just feel like for whatever reason, they're struggling to finish, or they feel just really, um, discouraged or kind of alone in their writing. It's this online, um, community it's, I guess I would kind of describe it as almost like a, a class, a program, like a group where we meet every week. And, um, and I kind of help coach you through the process of writing a book. So it's both accountability and also, um, cheerleading, sometimes a gentle kick in the pants. And so much of the writing process is mental. I think we all have little gremlins and fears and doubts that pop up. And so often just having, um, a coach, having someone there to say, you know, what's coming up for you and like working through that together, um, just really is so helpful in getting you to the finish line, especially if it's the first book that you're working on.

Speaker 1: 37:55

Yeah, no, I think accountability is huge. You know, it can be really hard to self-motivate sometimes and really nice just to have someone, you know, nudging you along every now and then

Speaker 2: 38:07

Exactly. I'm, it's so important to me in my writing and I have multiple people tell me, oh, I don't know if I would've written this week. If I didn't know that we had our meeting where I was gonna have to say what I did.

Speaker 1: 38:19

Yeah. Now I know I remember being in college and taking writing classes. And that was one of the, the things that taught me. Like, there is no writer's block. That's not an option. You gotta turn something in on Friday, you know?

Speaker 2: 38:34

Yes. And I think it helps you prioritize it too. Sometimes we have other urgent tasks that get in the way of our writing. But when you have that accountability, you have that group, you have that class, you're like, okay, I need to get this done. I'm gonna really carve out the time for it.

Speaker 1: 38:49

Yeah. What would you say is maybe one of the top things that you aspiring writers struggling with and how do you help them through it?

Speaker 2: 39:01

Great question. I would say one of the top things is, so I call the middle of a book. I call it the muddy middle. Um, I think that a lot of people that I work with, um, kind of get stuck around the middle. It's less exciting than it was when they first started. And it still feels kind of far from the end. And, um, I think that's when a lot of our self-doubts and fears kind of creep in more and more, and also where we sometimes get shiny objects syndrome. Will we wanna jump ship and start work on a new idea as instead of finishing the one we're working on? So, um, I really like to tell people that it's, it might feel kind of messy. It might feel like you don't quite know what you're doing, or it might feel like the book is just this, a chaotic, you know, mess, but that, I think that's really normal for the middle and just to keep plugging away. Um, because once you get to the end, you can always, you know, you can go back and, and rework things and, and tweak things and change them. And, um, one of my favorite writing teachers, Amy Bender, she used to tell us in, um, in our writing workshops that you cannot edit a blank page, which is so true. It's always so much better to have that first draft done, and then you can go back and, and work with it. So I think for a lot of writers that, um, are in my program as well, it's just recognizing that it's a normal part of the process. There's nothing wrong with you. There's nothing wrong with your book. If there are times where it feels a little bit hard to keep going, or things seem a little bit messy, um, and just to kind of trust in yourself and trust in this idea that you have. Um, and, and just to keep moving forward.

Speaker 1: 40:52

Yeah, no, it's seriously not you. It is so universal this, the, the, the mucky you middle and how middles are so difficult and, uh, the, the shiny new idea syndrome, which always pops up, like when you're most trying to focus on something like, no, I really need to get this done. And Ooh, what is this other idea?

Speaker 2: 41:13

It's so true. And you just have to have that dedication to, um, to the finish line of that. Similar to training. You're talking about training for, for your half marathon. I feel like there are days where you don't really feel like going for a run or doing the training, or, but you, you still, you, you do, and then you're gonna have your amazing race at Disney world, you know, at the end.

Speaker 1: 41:36

No, it is funny. I actually, um, have been thinking, I should write a, a blog post about how all of the ways that running and writing are so similar, I've been shocked at how much overlap there is and how many, uh, analogies you can make between the, to cuz there there's a lot of similarities.

Speaker 2: 41:55

So, so many similarities. Yes.

Speaker 1: 41:59

Um, have you ever had anyone, a client or someone you were trying to coach through writing that you were a little bit like, you know what,

Speaker 3: 42:14

Um,

Speaker 2: 42:15

No. I mean, I think so a lot of people that I work with, um, maybe aren't going to end up becoming authors as like their career that maybe it's just this one book inside of them that they really want to get out to share with the world. Maybe they're writing a memoir, like to share with their family. Um, you know, so I, I do think that this, the business of being an author, you a publishing business can be, um, a tough one and like it's not for everyone, but at the same time, I do believe that there is such power in writing down our stories. I believe that everyone has stories to share. Um, and, and I, I do feel like right writing is this transformational process, um, for us. And there's one thing just to have stories in your mind, but I, I just feel something about writing it down, um, that is just so powerful. And so, so yeah, I mean, everyone that I've worked with, I'm so proud of them and it's been amazing to see the ripples that, that happen in other areas or life as well. Like I have, I've had people who have decided to go back to school, I've had people change careers. I've had people, um, kind of have these family, um, healing, uh, reunions that, that occur after they write their book that, um, yeah. I just think it's so special that even, I would tell anyone listening, like, even if you don't think you want to make a career necessarily as an author, I do still think it's worthy to write down your stories or to write the book that's inside of you, even if it's just for yourself.

Speaker 1: 43:46

No, I think that is such a wonderful point. Um, I think that there can be this idea of like, well, if I'm not pursuing publication, then I'm not a real writer or it's not really important. Um, which I think is so far from the truth. Like, it doesn't matter if you're just, you know, writing poetry because it makes you feel good or you're writing fan fiction because it's fun or you're writing memoir for your family. Like whatever it is, if you're writing, then you're a writer and there's value to what you're saying.

Speaker 2: 44:19

Yes, yes, exactly. And to circle back around to thanks Carissa, you know, a decade of rejection and thinking that maybe it wouldn't ever be published that maybe I did just write it for me, but I, it still was so, um, such a worthy experience. I was so proud that I wrote it. And, um, I, I do think it's, I think it can be helpful to separate the writing experience from everything that happens after that, that isn't as much in our control and just being proud of ourselves for writing our books in the best way we can. Um, and, and kind of letting the rest of it be what it will.

Speaker 1: 44:54

Yeah. Uh, OK. Real fast. Before we move on to our bonus round, would you tell listeners a little bit about your podcast, uh, overflowing bookshelves?

Speaker 2: 45:07

Yes. Yes. I, um, started at, I guess it was shortly before, uh, the pandemic. It was just at the very end of 2019 because I am a pretty social person, but writing can be so solitary and I was just wanting more connection with other writers. Um, and I have a toddler now. So at the time she was, she was only one. And so I was feeling like it was, it was harder for me to get out in the world, going to literary events, just having this little baby at home. And so I was, I like to daydream when I go on walks. And so a question I was asking myself is if I had a podcast, what would it be? And I was thinking, well, I would just love to chat with other writers about their books and about their process, that I'm always just so interested in talking to other writers. And so, um, I thought, well, what if I just, what if I do it? What if I, what if I try? And so, um, if each episode of my podcast is me just chatting similar to this Marisa is chatting with another writer about, um, you know, their path to publication their advice to other writers. And it's been so wonderful just to get, to have, um, this way of connecting with other authors. And I think one thing that just strikes me the most is how we all have such different processes. And, um, you know, our stories are different as we write in different genres, but there's so much about the creative process that is, um, similar. Like it's just, it's comforting to feel like we're kind of all in this together, even though we all have our own paths and our own individual, um, stories like it's, but it's really made me recognize the similarities. I think that we all, um, go through.

Speaker 1: 46:49

Yeah, no, it's true. There is so much overlap, so much similarity. And that's one thing that I've really found has been fun about having this podcast is that every guest, like some of them I know have met in the past, but the vast majority of my guests, I have never spoken to you before we, you know, sign on to do the recording. And yet I know right off the bat, we have this huge thing in common and it's like an immediate kinship with other writers, which, which is really special. Like I don't get that from, uh, too many other areas of my life.

Speaker 2: 47:24

Yes, yes. And I wonder too, now that I'm thinking about it, I wonder if it was something I was kind of missing from being in school, being in writing classes with a bunch of other writers. Yeah. Um, so trying to kind of cultivate that for myself.

Speaker 1: 47:36

Yeah. Yeah. No, for me it was kind of when the pandemic hit, I, and all of the, the, um, like conferences and book festivals and everything got canceled. And I was like, but I get so much joy and so much inspiration from just like sitting in the green room between panels, talking to other writers, what am I gonna do if I don't have that? And so this was kind of me filling that space

Speaker 2: 48:03

And I think it's so great to get, to even just listen to other writers talk. And it just, you feel like you're not alone. And you feel like, um, you know, if you're having a hard day writing, you can think about a guess that you heard talk about like their struggles and it just, I didn't think it helps you feel like, um, you're not alone in the process.

Speaker 1: 48:23

Yes. You're not alone out there. Everybody we're here for you. All right, Dallas you're ready for, or bonus round.

Speaker 2: 48:31

I am

Speaker 1: 48:33

Tea or coffee,

Speaker 2: 48:35

Definitely tea

Speaker 1: 48:38

Cake or pie.

Speaker 2: 48:40

Probably chocolate cake

Speaker 1: 48:42

Writing in the morning or writing at night.

Speaker 2: 48:45

This one is hard. I am naturally a night writer, but since, uh, my daughter was born in, she's an early riser, I've had to be more of a mourning writer. So I'm trying to train myself to be morning.

Speaker 1: 48:58

What is your favorite romantic movie?

Speaker 2: 49:01

Oh my goodness. I would say when Harry met Sally,

Speaker 1: 49:05

That's a good one. That's if, uh, thanks Carissa for ruining my life had a, what would it be?

Speaker 2: 49:14

It would definitely be Taylor. Swift's you belong with me?

Speaker 1: 49:19

How do you fill the creative? Well,

Speaker 2: 49:23

Reading is a huge one for me. And going for walks.

Speaker 1: 49:27

Do you have any writing rituals?

Speaker 2: 49:30

Yes. I have a certainty, a grain that I only drink when I'm working on my novel and I also have some sort of snack, usually chocolate related. Currently it is trader Joe's chocolate covered blueberries. Um, that I only let myself snack on when I'm writing.

Speaker 1: 49:51

What book makes you happy? Oh,

Speaker 2: 49:55

So many. Um, well, I was just telling you before we hit record Marisa, uh, currently I'm reading serendipity, which is making me very happy. I'm reading a story every night before bed and I just love, I love, love. I love why I love stories. And just every story is a treat

Speaker 1: 50:14

That makes me happy. Thank you. What are you working on next?

Speaker 2: 50:21

I am actually working on a sequel to thanks Carissa. It's my first ever sequel. Um, but yeah, I'm really excited about it. I'm having a lot of fun.

Speaker 1: 50:30

Can you tell us anything about it?

Speaker 2: 50:33

It is it. So it, um, starts when the first book leaves off. So, um, rose is back home and it's sort of exploring the aftermath of what happens when she's kind of back in her normal life. It and the show is airing and, um, yeah, there are some surprises and twists that happen.

Speaker 1: 50:53

Oh, that sounds fun. Cuz I, I was wondering like what would the reactions be when everybody finally gets to actually watch it?

Speaker 2: 51:01

Yes. Yeah. It's fun to explore.

Speaker 1: 51:04

Lastly. Where can people find you?

Speaker 2: 51:07

You can find me, uh, my website, Dallas woodburn.com. And I also like to hang out on Facebook and Instagram at Dallas Woodburn author. Um, if anyone listening does order. Thanks Carissa. I am sending out signed book plates and stickers and so you can always, uh, message me on Instagram at Dallas Woodburn author. I would love to send you one

Speaker 1: 51:29

Awesome free swag who doesn't love that. Yes, Dallas, thank you so much for joining me today.

Speaker 2: 51:36

Thank you. It's been such a pleasure

Speaker 1: 51:39

Readers. Definitely check out. Thanks Carissa for ruining my life. It is out now. Of course, we always encourage you to support your local indie bookstore. If you can, if you don't have a local indie, you can check out our affiliate store at bookshop.org/shop/marissa Meyer. We will be on break next week again, cuz I'm gonna be in Disney world. Woohoo. Uh, after that, when we come back, I'm gonna be talking with Lily layoff about her debut novel. It is a gender bent retelling of the three Musketeers. Sounds amazing titled one for all. If you're enjoying these conversations, please subscribe and follow us on Instagram at Marisa Meyer author and at happy writer podcast. Oh, and don't forget that we are still having our 100 episodes giveaway. If you haven't followed us yet and entered on Instagram, uh, you could win a$100 gift card to bookshop. So definitely follow us and check that out until next time stay healthy, stay cozy and whatever life throws at you today. I do hope that now you're feeling a little bit happier.