A Gender-Swapped Three Musketeers with Disability Rep - Lillie Lainoff - One for All

Marissa chats with Lillie Lainoff about her debut YA novel - ONE FOR ALL - as well as some great tips for researching for historical fiction, such as using knowledgeable consultants and going beyond documents to also referencing objects and artifacts; writing a protagonist with a disability or chronic illness, and the challenges posed by maintaining the authenticity of that illness while keeping the plot moving how you want it to; the universally acknowledged truth that book deadlines always seem to coincide with real-life deadlines (why is that??); plus lots of self-care talk, including finding the life balance that works for you (and ignoring advice that doesn't), knowing that asking for help does not make you - or your characters! - weak, asking for a deadline extension when you need it, and allowing yourself to be vulnerable on the page.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:11

Hello, and welcome to the happy writer. This is a podcast that aims to bring readers, more books to enjoy and to help authors find more joy in their writing. I am your host, Mari Meyer. Thank you for joining me. Uh, there was like a ton of stuff making me happy this week. Honestly, guys, this is a kinda a big week for me. Um, we're recording this quite a bit in advance, um, because I didn't want it to intrude on my vacation plans, but as of this recording, um, about to turn in cursed my next book, that's coming out in November, I've got like three more chapters to write and it is due in just a couple of days, so, oh, it will feel so good to have it turned in. Of course I'm gonna be running my half marathon here in a week in Disney world. I think I already talked about that before, but it's like taking over my life right now. Those two things are pretty much all I can think about cursed and Disney world. And then on top of that in, I think it was in our last episode, I talked about how actually it might have been two episodes ago. I don't know my schedule's all off. Um, I have writer brain right now, I think. Um, but I talked about how we finally got to announce this project that I was working on last fall that I am so, so excited for. Um, so just in case you missed that announcement, we are going to be releasing a brand new lunar Chronicles novel. It is coming out in ebook only on March 15th to coincide with the release of the cinder tenure anniversary. It is called Cinder's adventure. Get me to the wedding. So yeah, there's a wedding, but more than that, it is an interactive story experie, which means you, the readers get to guide cider down her path and make her choices for her and see where it takes you in the story. And what was really fun for me writing this is that as cider goes off on these different pathways, you know, she kind of falls down the rabbit hole, so to speak and comes in contact with like every character I've ever written just about. Um, so there's the renegades characters, the heartless characters, they're all in there. It is a truly wacky silly story, but it was just so much fun to write. So that's coming out on March 15th, which I think by the time this at episode goes up is like next week. That is soon. I can't believe it. Uh, it is available for pre-order. I really hope you will check it out. Um, also just as a, an FYI, I am gonna be donating all of my royalties from that project to first book, which is one of my favorite literacy based organizations. So yay. So much exciting things happening. And of course now I'm all breathless, cuz I am like super, super excited talking about this stuff, but of course I so happy to be talking to today's guest. She holds a bachelor's in English from Yale university and is currently getting her master's degree in creative writing pros fiction from the university of east Anea. Her work has been featured in the LA review, the Washington post among others. And she is the founder of disabled kid lit writers. She's also a competitive fencer and fencing coach, her debut by novel one for all comes out tomorrow on March 8th, please welcome Lily layoff.

Speaker 2: 3:56

Oh thank you so much for having me. I'm so happy to be here.

Speaker 1: 4:00

Thank you so much for joining me. Um, I'm just gonna start out by saying that I loved this book all capitals. I can't wait to talk about it and I can't wait to recommend it to everyone who loves really kick butt female characters, sword fighting in like historical Paris. It's all, all the things I've ever wanted.

Speaker 2: 4:22

Oh yes. Oh, there's a reason why I like calling the book sisterhood of the stab stab. And I think that you just encapsulated everything. I like the sisterhood of the stab stab is

Speaker 1: 4:36

I love it. It's a super, super fun story. Um, it, it truly was like exactly the story that I wanted to be reading this week. So thank you. And congratulations for the launch of your debut novel. How are you feeling?

Speaker 2: 4:53

I'm feel it's it's exciting. Uh, it's this strange, surreal feeling of the manifestation of my childhood dream, cuz I've always wanted to be an author. So it's, it's very strange to finally have this hardcover book that has my name on it. Uh, it's also incredibly exciting. Uh, I'm already getting a lot of, um, messages and letters from readers and early readers who, um, have really, really, um, who one for all has really resonated with. And it's so it's exciting. It's nerve wracking, but it's also incredibly rewarding and I'm just really thankful, uh, that this day is finally approaching. I

Speaker 1: 5:43

It's finally approaching it's almost here. It is so exciting. Um, and, and that is a perfect S into the first thing that I ask all of our guests. Um, you mentioned that this was a childhood dream of yours. Uh, so I love to know your origin story as a writer. How did it go from being a childhood dream to now having your name on a book cover?

Speaker 2: 6:11

So I knew that I wanted to be a writer since around when I was five years old, old, and I don't think I really knew what the concept of an author was. At least I really don't think five year old Lily did, but, uh, I knew that I wanted to be the person who created the stories and the books that I read and that were read to me when I was little. So I proceeded to become that girl and that girl being the one who has a notebook underneath one arm and a book underneath the other. And that's how she walks around for, I mean, practically my entire childhood. And whenever anybody asked me what I was going to be, when I grew up, I said, I'm gonna be a writer. And, uh, it, you know, it, people thought it was very sweet and very precocious. And then they realized that, uh, my answer remained the same into my, you know, into being a teenager and into being an adult. Oh, okay, well maybe she's actually going to do this. Uh, so I, uh, did a lot of, you know, writing summer camps when I was a teenager. Uh, the Scholastic art and writing awards was a huge, uh, just a huge push for me. And, uh, their recognition was really helpful and getting me, uh, kick started in terms of my writing career. Uh, I started writing a few op when I was in college and those are published. So I was figuring out how to navigate writing fiction and nonfiction. And, uh, uh, I taught myself how to, uh, query agents on my twin Excel bed in my dorm room, in college with the agent directory, uh, the printed out one highlighting names and seeing who represented ye, which I think is very, it's very different for authors now. Um, but, uh, I, I ended up finding representation, um, and a few different books later and a very long time on submission later. Uh, my book is actually a book.

Speaker 1: 8:28

So this was not the book that got you, your agent.

Speaker 2: 8:32

Oh, no, no. Um, so I don't really know if we can call the first book. I wrote a novel because I was 12 and it really wasn't, it's, it's going to remain in the drawer, locked away for the rest of my life. Nobody will ever read this, but, um, I wrote, I think what I would consider my first real novel when I was in high school and I finished it while I was in college and I taught myself, um, how to query to query that novel. And I got a little bit of interest, but not a lot. Uh, but the, the good thing about it was that I, I had learned how to query properly by doing that. So when I wrote my next novel, I knew how I, how to write the query letter. I knew which agents I wanted to query. So when I received representation, that process was pretty quick. Uh, and then I was on submission with that novel for two years.

Speaker 1: 9:38

Oh,

Speaker 2: 9:39

Wow. And that novel, uh, I don't, I hate the word die. I, I hate the term died on submission because to me, the book still lives on. I'd love to see it published one day, but while I was on submission, I was work on one for all. Um, and I went on some issue with one for all, I think in, gosh, would've been the end of 2018. Uh, yeah, the end of 2018. And I was on submission with one for all for a year.

Speaker 1: 10:14

Oh, wow.

Speaker 2: 10:15

Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 10:18

So, I mean, take me through the day that your agent called you up and was like, I know it's been a year, but guess what?

Speaker 2: 10:25

Oh, oh. So I think that, uh, we had, I, I didn't really have that exact call because, uh, to the dismay of my agent, I'm in incre I'm, you know, the positive, optimistic side who likes to say I'm proactive. The negative side of me likes to say, you're a little bit, Nu Louis

Speaker 1: 10:48

Say to be a little bit Nu.

Speaker 2: 10:49

So I, I would, you know, her say, Hey, what's going on? Do we know what's? Is anybody liking it or reading it? And, um, my editor, Melissa warden had emailed us saying, Hey, I really love this. I'm not finished yet, but can you send me some more information and materials? So we had a feeling that maybe this was going to be it. And I knew that she was taking it to acquisitions. And that day was the most stressful day of my entire life, because I knew that acquisitions was ha the meeting was happening at some point during that day. But I didn't know when, so I, uh, was staying with a family friend and, oh, poor. I, I feel so bad for them. Cause I had put up with me just pacing the entire day, trying to okay. Well, okay. Well maybe it's a lunch meeting and then after lunch, okay. Maybe it's not a lunch meeting and the email slash call for my agent came in, I wanna say around 5:00 PM or 6:00 PM. And I just burst into tears. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 12:03

I also burst into tears. I actually, I remember like getting the call in the morning from my agent and then I like totally held it together for like the entire day till my husband got home from work. And like the moment that he walked in the door, just like tears kiss came, flooding forward, all the emotion.

Speaker 2: 12:21

Oh gosh. That's so impressive that you managed to hold it together for an entire day though. Yeah. Cause that's huge news.

Speaker 1: 12:26

Oh gosh. Such, such an incredible moment. Um, okay. Well, I am so happy that the book found its editor found its home is now coming out, uh, for people to read for me to read. Uh, why don't you tell listeners what is one for all about?

Speaker 2: 12:47

Okay. Uh, so one for all, uh, is a gender event reimagining of the three Musk of tears in which a girl with a chronic illness and that chronic illness is postal orthostatic tachycardia syndrome, um, trains as a MUE and uncovers secrets, sisterhood, and self love.

Speaker 1: 13:08

That was a very succinct I Here's my elevator pitch. Um, okay. So the moment that I heard about this book, gender bend three Musketeers, I was like, I will, I would like to read that email author, ask for podcast immediately. Um, I love the three Musketeers. Uh, I love anything to do with you Paris in this time period. And then hearing that we're gonna have females in the lead roles. Like it's just such a great concept. Um, so I am curious, Cause I also know that you're a fencer, so, and I wanna talk about fencing as well for you. What came first? The interest in fencing or the interest in the three Musketeers?

Speaker 2: 14:02

Oh, definitely the interest in fencing. Um, I remember I was at a summer camp for, I think it was for art, a, an art summer camp of some sort. And they were bringing in people who, um, had different professions each day. And for some reason, one day they brought in a fencer and this is strange because there's maybe five professional fencers in the entire world. It's not a professional support. You don't make money ASR. So I don't know how or why they coordinated it like that. But this woman came in and she was talking about fencing and I was just looking up at her and I remember, oh my gosh, she's so cool. And all my favorite childhood movies were Mulan and the princess bride was, oh my gosh, I want to do that. I need to do that. And at that point I had pretty much tried every single sport known in existence. I tried swimming, soccer, basketball, track, and field skating, horseback riding, uh, golf, pretty much everything because I wasn't a very coordinated child. And my parents thought, yes, let's get li into sports. She will be less clumsy. And uh, none of that really worked. However, it's very counterintuitive. Yes. Came home that day. Mom, I wanna do the sport because I want to hit people with swords. And she said, okay. So, uh, I joined with a friend and I was the only girl in my class and I think it was maybe a class of 12. So it was me and 11 little boys when I was eight or nine years old. And I really loved the sport. Somehow it was a sport that I was good at, which was a new thing for me. And I knew that I wanted to get to the point where I could compete. So I switched to and club. So I could be in a class with other girls because at the national competitive level of fencing, there's well'em and fencing. And there's men fencing at the regional level. There's mixed events. But, uh, for the events that I knew that I wanted to participate in at the national level, I knew that I had to practice fencing other girls and I switched fencing clubs. And that was when, during the summer fencing camps, we started watching movies like the man in the iron mask or the three muske tears. And that's when I first really started to love the three muske tears and the storytelling and this slightly off slightly fantastical version of Paris that some that is historical, but it's also not, there's something off about it. There's something dark. Uh, and I loved all the fencing that being said, I was also taken aback by where are all the girls with swords? Where are all the women with swords? This is strange. And, uh, as I grew up, I realized that, you know, the three Musketeers, um, represented to a lot of people, this very specific type of masculinity in term. And what I mean by that is, is like this type of masculinity that is equivalent to, you know, squash, buckling and, uh, sleeping with lots of women and getting into lots of, um, doing lots of crimes in, in the name of the king, but really how are you getting away with stuff like that? No. Uh, and I, when, uh, I was thinking about starting to write one for all, I thought, wouldn't it be cool if I took my favorite parts of the three Musketeers, which is of course the 10 saying, and the elements of brotherhood and fraternity and this really profound sense of loyalty. Uh, and what if I did that with girls? And what if I did that with women? Because I didn't have any stories like that when I was growing up.

Speaker 1: 18:15

I love it. No, I completely agree. I think that the world was missing this and I'm so happy that it's now here. I want everyone to go read it. Um, if they have any interest in this sort of thing, I love like all the things you're talking about, the swash and the Debre attitude and all of that, but seeing it now for women, it's just, it's really fun. And like, we've waited too long for this.

Speaker 2: 18:39

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 18:40

So, so you, you get the idea, you're gonna do a, a kind of feminist retelling of three Musks. What was the research process like? How much were you drawing on the original source material?

Speaker 2: 18:55

Okay. So, um, the research was intense. Uh, I have a bookmark file tab on my laptop that is just full with J store articles and blog posts and videos on YouTube of reenactments of court videos. So I could correctly describe how people place their arms and hands at different points during the dance. Um, I also built upon, I started taking French when I was in first grade and I studied French all the way through elementary, middle, and high school, and then through half of college. So I was, I was definitely familiar with the language and, uh, a lot of those courses also incorporated cultural elements. So I had a lot of the books that I needed. I had a lot of, I knew where to find the resources that I needed. So it, it was the mixture of using the knowledge that I already had over the many years of study and then also doing my own research. And I was very, very low lucky to be doing part of my research while I was still in undergrad. So I had access to a lot of those, um, scholar, article websites for free. So, um, I was able to, you know, look up articles about how the Parisian ports are laid out and what they actually looked like. Or I, um, you know, what kinds of fabrics specifically were, uh, dresses made out of, for young girls versus girls versus women and how, uh, women used to, uh, cut costs, but also try to mimic pearls, which is what the, one of my favorite fun facts that I learned is about how, um, imitation pearls were made out of glass beads and ground down, um, fish, um, fish skills interesting. And, uh, they and a ammonium. And then they would pour that material into a glass bead and then have it coat the inside and then fill the rest with wax. And from the outside, it looked like a Pearl. So all these women we're going around this kind of fish scale, necklaces that to the world book like pearls. So it was a, a lot of those fun details that don't make it into the book

Speaker 1: 21:36

I was gonna ask. Cause I like, I don't remember this detail.

Speaker 2: 21:39

Oh no, no. I could write so many books. I would love to write more, one more books in the one for all universe. Um, just so I could use all the research that I learned. Oh, cuz it's all sitting on my computer.

Speaker 1: 21:55

No, that is one of the things about research. Um, I, I also, I'm a research fan. I love doing it. I get really excited about all of the just weird quirky detail that you pick up when you're reading about, you know, different, you know, places or time periods, what have you. And yet what actually makes it into the book is so small compared to like this huge amount of information that you have gathered. And there's always a part of me that just like, but, but there's more cool stuff like can't I fit it in it's I I'm so frustrated by that sometimes.

Speaker 2: 22:33

Yeah. Me, me too, me too one for all used to be a lot longer. I tried to fit it in. I couldn't,

Speaker 1: 22:41

No, I, I mean, it pays off though. The book, I mean, it was one of those books that was very immersive and I, I just love all of the little lush details, the, you know, etiquette of high society and the clothing and the architecture and it, it really was one of those books that just puts you there. Um, so it paid off your research worked.

Speaker 2: 23:06

Thank you so much. No, that it it's nice to hear that. Especially after all, like I said, all the hours of, uh, watching the, the YouTube videos and pressing play and then pause and then play and then pause. So I could map out the arm movements at every single second of the dancing.

Speaker 1: 23:25

Oh my gosh. I, I, I get it. I've been there.

Speaker 2: 23:30

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 23:32

So I always feel like writing, like as a reader, I love historical fiction, um, largely in part, because it does just put you in this time and place, um, as a re excuse me, as a writer, I find it very intimidating. Like for me, even writing a fantasy world that is, you know, loosely inspired by history, I just get so worried about what if I get something wrong? What if I miss something or, or, or mess something up and readers, notice it for you? Like, or what would you say to someone who maybe has an idea they wanna try their hand at historical fiction, but they're afraid of getting something wrong?

Speaker 2: 24:16

Well, I think that, I mean, I we've, we've talked about already, but research really is so important. Um, so something else that was really important for me was I had a, um, consultant, um, Elle per whose own book is coming out soon. I believe so everybody should check that out. Um, but she, uh, is an expert of that specific of one for all specific time period and in France. Uh, so she went through one for all and told me, uh, I'm not sure about this. Uh, I'm not sure about this or are we sure that this timing would've worked, uh, you know, with me doing math, if it takes a carriage this long to go one mile, how long would it take for Tanya from Lu to reach Paris? I know I haven't done math like that since I was in high school. So, uh, she helped me a lot just to pick up on things that maybe I hadn't noticed because I, I'm not a historian. Uh, and that was incredibly helpful. I also had some early readers who by chance were fluent French speakers. So they would also say, uh, you used the wrong, uh, tense here, which was helpful. Um, but I guess at the end of the day, it's a little bit different, like you said, for writing historical fantasy. And, and I don't consider one for all straight historical fiction because it isn't, I, I did want to pay ho homage duas, uh, and how he created this alt fantastical version of Paris. So I fudged some details specifically to mimic what he did in the three muske tears. Uh, so one of the, I think the important thing for me was what I wanted to be able to say was, okay, I have done all the research I possibly can. And if there is something in incorrect in the book, or I've gotten it wrong, that's a specific choice that I've made. Mm. Uh, I didn't want it to be because I missed something. And that's probably not the healthiest way of doing research and writing historical fiction because we're humans, we're flawed. We're not going to be perfect all the time. We're going to miss things. But, uh, research really is just super important and also researching in ways that you might not expect research, uh, via, uh, objects that aren't necessarily documents. So if you can go to museums and, and, and COVID, it's difficult, but, um, there are lots of museums that have exhibits online. Now, if you can look at, um, artifacts from those time periods, so drag and, uh, tables and mantle pieces, and anything from history tells a story. So you can find out so much about the historical time period, just based on the kind of stitches they were using in their clothing and how they made clothing. So it's about coming at the research from multiple different sides. So not just the documents, not just the language, but also the actual physical objects.

Speaker 1: 27:58

I love that you were speaking my language, the hands on like primary source type of research is my favorite. And it really, it, it, it makes a difference to the writing you will find and see and notice details that like this, this scholar is probably not gonna put into their writing, um, so much great advice. Thank you. Um, I wanna talk about our main character, Tanya, um, because one of the things that is so powerful about this book is that you have taken, you know, this very well known story, the three Musketeers, and like you were talking about before, there was just this, you know, masculinity. And like, one of the things that we, I think love about the three Musketeers is that they almost have this like invincible aspect to them. Like they, you know, they can't be harmed, they can't lose. And you not only have you put girls into these roles, um, but you've also given us a female lead who have as a disability who is dealing with chronic illness. Um, and so like, there's so many people in her world who see her as weak and, and frail and vulnerable, and it really kind of turns this whole idea on its head. Uh, so talk to me a little bit about what inspired her, what, what, where this come from, uh, and maybe what were some of the challenges, the unique challenges that, that presented for the story,

Speaker 2: 29:33

Right. Uh, so Tanya, uh, and her experience with pots is directly experienced with my experience with pots. Um, because when I was a teenager and I was diagnosed in when I was 14, uh, so right at the beginning of high school, I didn't have any books about characters with pots. And to be clear, I mean, as far as we know, one for all is the first trip initially published book by a major publisher with a main character with plots. So, um, teenage will is finally getting her book. Uh, but, um, I had initially started writing one for all. Um, and I didn't in my mind imagine Tonya as having plots and after a paragraph of writing, it just felt wrong. And I realized that was because I really wanted to write about fencing the way that I fence and the way that I fence is inextricable from my experience with pots. Because I mean, when you have a condition that causes dizziness and fainting and blurred vision and headaches amongst other symptoms, fencing is going to be affected. So I wanted to be able to write about the different ways that she learns to fence with pots. Um, and slowly that started turning into me being able to write about, um, a narrative about internalized ableism and the way that people view her and how she learns to love herself, which, um, while it is in a historical setting, it's very much, I think, um, it, it very clearly maps onto a modern day lens in terms of these were all things that I was thinking about myself when I was a teenager. Um, I was worried that nobody would want to be friends with a sick girl. I was, you know, I had a best friend who ghosted me after I, you know, couldn't really hang out anymore, you know, be fun. Um, I was really worried about guys not being entrusted in me once they figured out that I was sick. So I wanted to put all of that into Tanya and to speak to your last point about, you know, some of the challenges of writing about that. Um, it was difficult in the way that pouring her soul onto the page is difficult because Tanya is not me, but she's definitely part of me. So because there is so much of me on the page, it was reopening old wounds that had never really healed over properly. I, and giving them the chance to start to heal. So it was at a process of extreme vulnerability, which to be fair. I think that anytime an author puts a novel into the world, it is an extreme, active vulnerability, but for one, for all, it had so much, it has so much of me in it. So that required a lot of vulnerability. And I think that, um, I was very lucky in terms of my age and, and my editor, because, uh, there were ti, there were times, and this was probably probably one of the other difficult elements is that, um, sometimes the very clear way that you need to change the plot or a plot point or how you're transitioning from one scene to the next isn't possible because of Tanya's chronic illness. For example, there's a point at the beginning of the book when her house is broken into it's the opening scene. Um, and my agent had suggested that it needed to be closer in time period, to, uh, the act, the beginning of, um, the main story of one for all as, because the chapter one kind of serves as a, as a frame. And I said, actually, that, that can't really work because if Tanya had passed out and was healing super sick, just a few days ago, she's not gonna be in a position where she convinced the next day or two days later, she's not going to, she's clearly in the middle of a pots flare, you know, a chronic illness flare. She's not gonna be able to get up and start the day. So it was a lot of, um, thinking, okay, well, how do we, uh, maintain the authenticity while also, while also making sure that the craft is where it needs to be, and that the plot makes sense and that all those seeing transitions work. So it, my, my process, it was, it was very collaborative. And again, like I said, I'm very lucky with my, with my agent, Jennifer Wells and my editor, Melissa Warren, because I would tell them something and say, Hey, this actually doesn't work because of X, Y, and Z. And they would go, okay, let's try to think of something else that would work. They didn't try to push me on it, or because they knew that it would end up creating a narrative that didn't feel authentic. And at the end of the day, I don't think would've been as successful. Um, yeah, as one for all is. So, uh, I think I wrote maybe 21st chapters. I know they stopped counting around 12, but, um, we tried so many different things in terms of how to work around that scene, transition on how to make things feel immediate. Um, and I think it ended up successful. Uh, so yes. So I think that, uh, the biggest difficulties in, uh, were, were in terms of the, um, one opening myself up and allowing myself to be vulnerable on the page and two, uh, finding ways to edit and make sure the craft is maintained while also maintaining authenticity.

Speaker 1: 35:56

Yeah. Yeah, no, I think it's absolutely successful. Um, and I'm really curious, cuz I found in my experience that, you know, sometimes a book will pose a challenge and you're at first, not sure. Well, how am I gonna, you know, get this to work? How am I gonna fill this plot hole? How am I gonna make this authentic, but also do what I'm trying to do, blah, blah, blah, whatever the problem is. And for me, I think a lot of times when we're kind of forced to move past, you know, our, our first idea, our second idea, our 12th idea for how to do this and like keep pushing it and keep brainstorming and keep looking for solutions. But then when we finally land on something that works, it's like a hundred times better than what we'd originally tried to do. Did you kind of have that same experience as well?

Speaker 2: 36:50

I think so, but also I was just so relieved at that point. That thank goodness this is over. I mean, to be fair, I will, I hopefully will be writing a lot more first chapters in my future. So I will have to go through hopefully not to this extreme, hopefully. Yeah,

Speaker 1: 37:08

No, that's a lot twenties a lot.

Speaker 2: 37:11

Um, but uh, I was just so relieved at that point that, uh, it's like, okay, whatever, you know, everybody likes it, great done. This is what it is. Um, but, uh, yeah, no, but looking back now that I've actually had time to distance myself from the material because I was on submission for so long and I sold it sold at the end of 2019 and the publication day was for, um, early 20, 22. So I had a very long leadup time. I was with the text of the book for so long that I couldn't really see it for what it was yeah. Towards the end. So now that I've had time to take a step back and you know, uh, actually read it, oh, I like this like good job, Lily, this is nicely done.

Speaker 1: 38:03

Oh my gosh. I know that feeling so well. I always hate, you know, so I'm get about, I'm about ready to turn in my current novel. And I'm like in that point where I've just been like stuck deep in the text for so long that I don't have the big picture of it anymore, which is all was like a really nerve wracking part of the process. But then historically, and I'm counting on it to happen again here in a few months when I'm going over page proofs and I've had some distance, then you start to be like, oh, it's like a real book now. Cool. How did that happen?

Speaker 2: 38:38

Yeah. And that's other thing and, and there's, there's some sentences in some areas of the text that we, as authors will just work so long on and overwork it. And by the end of it, we're turning it in. And oh, we hate that. You know, I hate that sentence so much. And then it's the sentence that all the readers are quoting in their reviews saying, oh, I loved it so much. And this really resonated with me and great.

Speaker 1: 39:03

Isn't that so funny it's so the truth you're absolutely right. I will say, I actually wrote down, I don't usually do this, but I wrote down my favorite quote, um, from one for all. Oh, in which, uh, Tanya says I could be strong and need help at the same time. Oh. Which I felt like really encapsulated so much of what the story is about.

Speaker 2: 39:25

Yes. Yes. That's I think that, that was, I can't, I can't remember. I think that was aligned from the very first draft, if it wasn't, it was an edited line from the very first draft, because like you said, that really is the heart of one for all. It's the idea that needing help isn't weakness and that, um, you shouldn't have to hide that and needing help isn't shameful. Yeah. Um, so I think that, like I've said, you know, while I really do think that the chronic illness representation is super important and I think that it's going to resonate with a lot of chronically ill and disabled readers. I also think that there's a universality to Tanya's story in that anybody who's ever needed help or hasn't, you know, been good at something or hasn't, you know, just gone it alone or been able to go it alone for their entire lives. Anybody is going to be able to resonate with that.

Speaker 1: 40:25

No, absolutely. And I think it's so hard to ask for help sometimes. Um, I know for me, I'm, you know, in my 37 year journey toward trying to figure out how to ask for help when I need it, you know, and no matter what element of your life, you know, sometimes you just need to reach out to someone and it can be, it does require some courage to do that. But like you say, it doesn't mean you're weak. It's not shameful. It's part of being human.

Speaker 2: 40:54

Yeah. You know, it's this idea of, you know, being a friend to yourself, if you, if you would, if you would, if a friend came to you and asked for help, you would, you know, I would, of course I, I would, of course help a friend and Tanya of course would help a friend. But because she has this idea in her head that she, that nobody wants to be friends with her or that nobody, you know, that she doesn't really have any real friendships. She's so worried that, um, any little thing will be the thing that makes people turn away from her say, oh, she's just not worth it. Whereas in actuality, I mean, being friends with anybody is it doesn't mean that you're always going to be having a good time and that, um, people aren't ever going to need help. I mean, I think that most of my strongest friendships are with people who, um, I've gone to in times of real crisis. And I don't know how to deal with this situation, or I don't know what to do. Can you give me advice or can, can you just tell me what to, and I think, you know, for Tanya that was, you know, learning that she could do that and learning that she could rely on her sisterhood was really the essence and core of the book.

Speaker 1: 42:14

No, and it fits so well because of course the source material, the three Musketeers has that brotherhood aspect, um, which is so integral to what that story is about. Um, and here you've done something really similar, um, with these now four Musketeers. Yes. Um, and you know, for me, I, I usually, I love romance in a book and there is definitely some romance here, but the, the friendship storylines and how these four girls come to really trust and rely on each other, uh, is such a huge, important part of the story. You know? So here, you've got both, you're writing both romance and these really lovely friendship stories, what to you, or like some of the, the similarities of writing romance versus friendship and how are they different?

Speaker 2: 43:05

Oh, that's such a good question. Um, I think that, for me, just in general, I don't think that, uh, people put enough importance on friendships and the, the relationship of a friendship. Um, and, uh, I think that we see that a lot of time in modern society. And I'm thinking about like a number of articles that go into, um, you know, how, you know, French that go into how French, how friendships are actual relationships, um, and how, you know, you take care of each other and how you rely on each other. But, um, because I do, I do think that it's, it's kind of hard to talk about the writing, the romance element of it, because I'm trying not to give away any spoiling.

Speaker 1: 43:53

I know

Speaker 2: 43:55

That's

Speaker 1: 43:56

Why I like specifically was like, wellm not, can I ask about the romances? Cause that'll get everything away.

Speaker 2: 44:01

Yeah. But for, I guess I think for me, is that whenever anybody asks, is there a love story? And one for all I say, yes, Tanya learns to love herself. That is the love story. And one for all it's Tanya and learning to love herself. And I think that, um, I think that, uh, for me, uh, one of the ways that I figured out how to write about Tanya and friendships versus Tanya in romantic relationships is that I really wanted to write about acceptance in all its forms. So she is accepted of course by the other Maiers, but they all have different ways of how they show their love for her and how they accept her. Um, because they're all different people and different people have different ways of showing their love. But, um, and I wanted to do that same thing with the romantic elements of one for all and show, um, that form of acceptance and how, you know, Tony is of her big fears at the beginning of the book are two big fears are, you know, nobody's gonna want to be friends with me and nobody's ever going to want to be with me. And so I was using those relationships that are portrayed in the book to answer those questions in terms of, yes, people are going to want to be friends with you. And yes, there are guys who will want to be with you. Yeah, no, I'm not. I, I don't, I dunno if there's anything else I can actually say that, uh, has any insight without accidentally spoiling at least a hundred pages of the book?

Speaker 1: 45:49

No, we definitely don't wanna spoil anything. Um, I think part of the reason I ask is because I, I felt like there was such wonderful chemistry in these, this group of girls. Um, and just as I was reading it, I just found myself thinking about that and how they interact with each other in different ways. They interact with Tanya in different ways and yet, so many of like the hallmarks of a romance story, um, being there for each other and supporting each other, getting to know each other, they were there, but of course it's, you know, more platonic and yet still, you know, kind of in a beautiful way, like hitting all of those same notes. Um, and so it just kind of made me think about it.

Speaker 2: 46:32

Yeah. I think, I think that one for all is like, okay, well, I did say that, you know, the love story and one for all is Tanya learning to love herself. I do think that there are these different elements of love stories and different elements of love, cuz there's familial love in terms of Tanya's relationship with her Papa and her and her all, but there's also her friendship with the girls and her. I mean, it goes, it it's sisterhood and her, um, you know, redacted relationships. Um,

Speaker 1: 47:06

OK. I have one last question. Um, before we move on our lightning round, um, in your bio, if it might be outdated, cuz sometimes bios are outdated, but it said that you are currently getting your master's degree. Is that accurate?

Speaker 2: 47:20

It is a little bit outdated actually. Um, it is it's it's so I officially graduate. Did I officially grad? I, I mean I, the diploma is being sent to me from across the ocean. Uh, did

Speaker 1: 47:36

You just use the words? Did I officially graduate?

Speaker 2: 47:39

Well, it's, it's hard in COVID times. We don't really have graduation ceremonies anymore in person. Um, and uh, it was very, very odd, uh, especially because with writing it's so different than when you're in a field or a subject like economics or even history, or you might have some final exams, you might have some final papers, but you will have some final exams and for my ma and creative writing post fiction, it was you hand over your, your dissertation and you're finished bye now. So, uh, yes, so I, I, I officially have my ma that's, it feels very strange. Just say out loud.

Speaker 1: 48:25

Well, congratulations. Thank

Speaker 2: 48:26

You.

Speaker 1: 48:27

Um, so I know, I mean a lot of our listen are students in high school or in college. Um, and I also know, uh, I remember those days and how hard it could be to find time to write for myself as opposed to just always working on, you know, things I was doing for school. Um, so here you are, you've been getting your degree and also having this book come out,

Speaker 2: 48:55

Right.

Speaker 1: 48:56

What are maybe a couple of tips, um, or some advice that you would give to someone who is in that position and struggling to make time for their, um, their personal passion writing?

Speaker 2: 49:06

Uh, well, first of all, I would say congratulations, cause this is the, the dynamic is difficult. Um, and I don't think I realized how difficult it was going to be until I actually started the program. Um, because I, I wrote, I, I wrote and I queried and I became agent and I went on submission while I was still an undergrad. So, so I still managed to find time to write for myself then, but there's this shift when you get a book deal. And I mean, of course it's, it's a huge, huge privilege to be able to say that this is a career, that this is my job, but it becomes you're, you're not just writing for yourself anymore. You're writing in terms of, you know, you're under contract, you know, you, you have a book, so you have deadlines to meet. Um, and so that started when I was at school and for some reason I, all of my deadlines for my books seem to magically line up with my deadlines for school as

Speaker 1: 50:19

Well's so funny. Yeah,

Speaker 2: 50:22

Me too. I think it was either my second, my second round of edits, uh, lined up with my very first day of, uh, my master's program. And then, uh, the legitimately the hour, the, the same hour that I finished my last class of right before, uh, winter break got copy edits in my inbox or one for all there's no rest, no break. Um, but what I learned is that one, um, it's really important to find balance and everybody will say that, but the key is to find your balance because some people will say, oh, you have to have this amount of time for yourself. And this amount of time to write, or you need to write this amount every day, which is a lie and it's ableist and sexist and classist and all those other things. So just, you know, throw that whole entire idea away. Um, so you're a writer still, if you don't write every day, that's fine. Um, but it's about finding a balance that works for you and, you know, preserves your own mental health and emotional health because at the end of the day, those are the two most important things and physical health, of course. Um, so, uh, I did a lot of editing, uh, and then going to workshop or, um, workshopping my own classmates work. Um, I'm a bit of a nerd, which I think most writers are, but, um, I'm a nerd, so I really enjoy doing workshops and on other people's work and getting feedback. So, uh, I would get all of that done really quickly. Um, of course I would, I would take my time and dedicate time to it. I don't wanna make it sound like in case all the off chance any of my cohort is listening in and then going Lily, did you not actually give us thorough feedback to, uh, but, um, I would do all of it at when I got at the beginning of the week. And then I would have a certain amount of days in between that day and the next workshop. So I would devote those days to working on one for all and on edits. I, I think it was also really helpful that I, I have a really great team behind me and, and my agent and my editor and everybody at FSG. So, um, I don't think there was a time when I needed an extension while I was at UEA, but, but I also did know that if I need needed to ask for one that I would get it. And I think that that's also important and it's important to find a, a, a good editor who, you know, is going to have your back when it comes to making sure that one you're healthy, you're safe, but also making sure that, you know, you, you both want the book to be the best book that it can be. And if that means taking a few extra weeks, then that means taking a few extra weeks, obviously as a DB author, that's a bit different for me because, you know, for somebody like you, who, you know, you have lots of deadlines and lots of books, so it's more rigid. Um, but, uh, for me, because there was this very long lead up time to the book publication, I had wiggle room, uh, looking back. I think that that was really the only way that I managed it because my gosh, I mean, the amount of work combined with edits was just, it was a lot.

Speaker 1: 54:11

Yeah, no, it is a lot. Um, and I think people are surprised when I tell them that I am like routinely asking for extensions. Um, and there was a time in my career where I felt really weird about that and like, I'd failed somehow, but of like we were talking before that sometimes you just need to ask for help. Um, and sometimes you just need a little bit more time and like you say, it's in everyone's best interest to have the best book possible. So if you need some extra time, that's okay. Ask for it.

Speaker 2: 54:43

Exactly. Exactly.

Speaker 1: 54:46

All right. Are you ready for a bonus round?

Speaker 2: 54:49

Yes.

Speaker 1: 54:50

All right. Cake or pie?

Speaker 2: 54:54

Oh, no, this is, so I thought these were gonna quick questions. Um, I'm gonna say, oh, cake, but chocolate flour cake, specifically

Speaker 1: 55:11

Plotter or pants.

Speaker 2: 55:13

Oh, pants,

Speaker 1: 55:15

Fancy ball gown or comfortable breaches

Speaker 2: 55:20

Ball gown,

Speaker 1: 55:22

Opulent, palace, or cozy cottage

Speaker 2: 55:26

Cottage

Speaker 1: 55:27

In your ball gown. Yes. What is your favorite part of writing?

Speaker 2: 55:34

Oh, uh, drafting, right when you get a new idea.

Speaker 1: 55:38

Hmm. How about your least favorite part of writing?

Speaker 2: 55:42

Editing, editing, definitely editing.

Speaker 1: 55:48

What book makes you happy?

Speaker 2: 55:52

Oh, uh, legend. Born by Traci Dion. Mm,

Speaker 1: 55:55

Good one good choice. She was on this podcast for people who haven't listened to her episode. She was phenomenal. Uh, what are you working on next?

Speaker 2: 56:06

That is a really good question. Um, and, uh, it's not one, I don't, it's not one that I, I, I know really how to answer because, um, I'm waiting on, uh, my editor's feedback. Um, but I, I am working on way too many novels right now. Um, I think there's four or five, uh, and I'm working on the novel that I was working on for my ma, which is adult literary fiction. I'm working on three different Yas. Um, and, uh, the Y that I think will pro I don't, I so hard to say now, and I don't wanna jinx anything. Um, it, it leans more fantasy, so more magic, but of course swords, because there must always be swords.

Speaker 1: 56:57

I mean, you've got all that fencing experience.

Speaker 2: 57:00

I've gotta use it. I've so

Speaker 1: 57:03

What a totally use skill for a writer who would've thought lastly, where can people find you?

Speaker 2: 57:10

People can find me at Lily layoff on Twitter and Instagram. Uh, my website is www.lilylayoff.com. And there, you can find all the links to pre-order one for, um, how to find signed copies, which are being provided through east city bookshop fund preorder campaign and library request, campaign giveaways, like character art, whole deal, uh, and also, uh, my work that's currently in print and, uh, work that is upcoming and, uh, places where one for all will be publishing in the near future.

Speaker 1: 57:51

Excellent. Lily, thank you so much for joining me today.

Speaker 2: 57:54

Thank you so much for having me. I had such a good time.

Speaker 1: 57:58

I did too readers. Definitely check out one for all it is coming out tomorrow on March 8th. Of course, we encourage you to support your local indie bookstore. If you can, if you don't have a local indie, you can check out our affiliate store at bookshop.org/shop/marisa Meyer. Next week, I will be talking with joy L Smith about her debut ballet inspired young adult novel turning. If you're enjoying these conversations, please subscribe and follow us on Instagram at Marisa Meyer author and at happy writer podcast until next time stay healthy, stay cozy and whatever life throws at you today. I hope that now you're feeling a little bit happier.