Using YouTube to Nail Your Book Research with Joy L. Smith - Turning

Marissa chats with Joy L. Smith about her debut YA contemporary - TURNING - as well as finding ways to relate to your protagonist in order to capture raw, authentic emotions on the page, and using humor to balance out your book's really intense moments; choosing first person point of view as a way to manipulate what your readers will see and feel throughout the story; how both YouTube and sensitivity readers can help you get the details right when writing about unfamiliar experiences; developing complex relationships between your characters, and how they often change and deepen over the course of revisions; the simple yet effective advice we should all have posted in our writing space; and some strategies for protecting your own emotions and well-being when delving into difficult topics (musical theater, anyone?). 

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:10

And welcome to the happy writer. This is a podcast that aims to bring readers, more books, to enjoy and to help authors find more joy in their writing. I am your host, Marisa Meyer. Thank you for joining me one that is making me happy this week. It'll be no surprise to those of you who have been listening for a while. I did it. I ran the Disney princess half marathon last week. I was so tired. I was in so much pain and yet I was so happy and I'm just like really stink and proud of myself. Um, for this thing that like, seriously, I, I am, I'm not a runner. I was never a runner. I never, ever in a million years could have thought that someday I'd be saying I ran a half marathon. Uh, but I did it. And my family and I had a lovely time in Disney world. And now we're home. I of course came back with a cold because I think my immune system is maybe a little out of practice when it comes to air travel. I did not miss getting sick the last two years. Um, but I'm feeling a lot better today than I was earlier. This, uh, if I sound a little stuffed up in today's episode, that is why also I have two things to mention two new projects coming out this week. So tomorrow, Tuesday, March 15th, we are releasing the cinder collector's edition, which celebrates the 10 year anniversary of cinder, my first novel. Um, it's just bonkers to me. I still remember when I signed the book deal for the series, um, which was in like late 2010. And, you know, they gave me the schedule for publishing these four books and winter wasn't gonna be coming out until 2015. And I thought, oh, mg, that is so far away. It's never gonna be here. Uh, and now of course, that was like a long time ago. So it's just amazing how quickly time goes and how much has happened these past 10 years. Uh, so I wanna say thank you. I'm so honored to have you all with me, this journey. Uh, I truly, truly hope that these books have brought you some joy, uh, some adventure, some, you know, moments of swooning or excitement over the years. Uh, and I'm just so thrilled that I get to do this as my job. Um, it is truly my dream come true. So speaking of books, the other thing that I have coming out this week, um, is my interactive E Nella, uh, in which you get to decide cider's choices and guide her down a path, uh, guide her through the story. There's like 12 or 13 different endings for that book. Not all of them are happy endings done, done, done. Um, so I hope you'll check it out. It was really fun to write. It's a really quirky little story that I put together. Um, and I, I hope that you can help cider get to her happily ever after. Uh, again, that comes out tomorrow. It's an ebook form only, um, and it is called Cinder's adventure. Get me to the wedding. So I really hope you'll enjoy it, cuz it was a really, really fun thing for me to do. All of that said I am also of course, so happy to be talking to today's guest. She is a childcare professional with a bachelor's degree in human development and differences with a specialization in communication disorders, her debut novel turning just came out earlier. This please welcome joy L Smith.

Speaker 2: 4:04

Thank you for having me.

Speaker 1: 4:05

Thank you for being here and congratulations on the launch of your debut novel.

Speaker 2: 4:11

Thank you so much.

Speaker 1: 4:12

So how has it been, were you able, we're back to doing in-person signings now, right. Were you able to do an event?

Speaker 2: 4:20

Um, yeah, I did a virtual event first and then I just did, um, yesterday, an in person event at books magic.

Speaker 1: 4:28

Okay, nice. And how has things been going?

Speaker 2: 4:31

Pretty good. I, I mean, I don't know what to expect. I didn't know what to expect, so I think things are going well, but, um, you know, I'm, I'm been pretty happy to see, you know, my family has, you know, like sending me like pictures and stuff and letting me know that they got the book and also the kids in my class class are too young to read, but they've been like, oh, we're getting your book joy, we need science. And so, you know, it's, it's very interesting to have people like know me, you know yeah. With that in that way. So, um, I'm just, I'm just down for the ride right now.

Speaker 1: 5:01

Yeah. How, how old are the kids that you teach?

Speaker 2: 5:04

Two and threes.

Speaker 1: 5:05

Oh, just little, little,

Speaker 2: 5:07

So little, so tiny.

Speaker 1: 5:09

Okay. Well they're, they're obviously not in your target market someday, someday

Speaker 2: 5:15

One day.

Speaker 1: 5:17

Um, okay. So the first thing that I like to talk to you all my guests about is I would love to hear your origin story. When did you know you wanted to be a writer? Uh, and how did you go from that idea or that dream to today having your first book on the shelves?

Speaker 2: 5:37

Okay. My origin story. Hmm. Okay. So I think I started really right. I was in like middle school and I would write like, um, screenplay and like movies and like little like fan fixing stories. So my favorite like boy band called B five. So my sister, yeah, my sister and I had like these notebooks and we would just write, you know, stories for them. You, you couldn't tell us anything, you know, they would read these one day, they would act these one day, you know? And I, um, in high school I had did a, we had the school, did a project to write like a little narrative type of story, you know, like taking like a, a day and like writing about it. And that got me involved with the girls right now, um, program. I don't know if anyone's heard of it. It's a nonprofit for, you know, girls and non-binary, you know, people to, to be paired up with writers of different like backgrounds, like journalists and screenplay writers and, um, you know, know like theatrical writers, you know, novelists, all sorts of types of writing. And so I got paired with, um, EV Z boy and, and write Alan, you know, and I think that's when I realized that I wanted to write, I didn't know if I wanted to be a writer writer, but I knew I wanted to like keep writing if that makes sense. Yeah. So I think it was then that I just realized that if I keep writing my stories, you know, maybe one day someone would read them, but it wasn't like a hard fat, you know, things like that. But, um, it wasn't until college and I was taking like a children's fiction class that I realized that, oh no, I really, really, really, really, really wanna write. And this is what I wanna do. And now I'm doing it.

Speaker 1: 7:27

I like the, oh no, what am I getting myself into?

Speaker 2: 7:31

Yeah. Because I, I feel like I'm one of those people that never really knew what they wanted to be. Like, if you ask me as a child, I had like 10 different answers, what I wanted to be when I grew up. And, you know, I have a hard time seeing it to the future that far. But with writing, I always just kind of came back to it. And I think it's when you always come back to something, that's when you know, like that's where you should be.

Speaker 1: 7:53

Yeah. Now I think that's an important point. And I think, you know, some of us, we can get, get it into our heads that like, oh, if I'm a writer, then that's that's number one. Like this is what I am. And I think it's good to remember. Like, you can be lots of different things too. Like writing doesn't have to be the, be all end, all of who you are and what you wanna do in your life.

Speaker 2: 8:15

That's true. I mean, I, I didn't see myself as a teacher and yet somehow I ended up teaching.

Speaker 1: 8:22

You're like, I'm just going with the flow wherever life's taken

Speaker 2: 8:25

Me. Exactly.

Speaker 1: 8:27

All right. So then, um, at one point you get the idea for this novel turning. Um, how did that come about and was it your first novel or had you worked on multiple leading up to this?

Speaker 2: 8:45

Uh, I had only written one novel before and it was a novel, my sister and I wrote back in high school together, you know, it was, you know, that was it. That was the first novel I written by myself turning, you know, by myself and I, I never worked on any other stories, you know, to become a novel. And it was the first story I queried. It was, you know, the first for everything for me turning was so I'm pretty, I'm pretty lucky in that sense. I didn't have to like query like different stories and anything like that before getting that hit. But, um, I feel like most writers like have like a specific, like really good story and I'm just like, well, one day I was just sitting and I just saw ballerina at a bar, you know? And, and, and then I just wondered what happened if she couldn't dance anymore. And that seems a bit like strange, you know, it's nothing like, it wasn't like a, a big aha moment or anything like, or like I had, I had wanted to get like words down on the page. I just had an idea and I just went with it story of my life, just going with it.

Speaker 1: 9:46

No, I think a lot of my stories too, you know, it's, it's fun to have like the lightning bolts aha moment. Um, and some come to me that way, but a lot of times I I'm like you, I, I get just a, what if question pops into my head and starts nagging and won't leave me alone.

Speaker 2: 10:08

Yeah. Like sometimes I'll just get like a name and I'm like, oh, I'll just go off of that. Okay. I'm a interesting,

Speaker 1: 10:15

A name, like a name, a person, or like a title?

Speaker 2: 10:18

Uh, yeah, a name of a person, a title, things like that. I'll just get like a name and I just, just follow and see where it takes me.

Speaker 1: 10:25

Yeah. Yeah. And before you know, it, there's characters popping up and talking to you and scenes coming to your imagination. It's weird. This thing that we do.

Speaker 2: 10:36

Yeah. It's definitely something writers do. They always, we have, we all, we all have different like ways of like how we write and yet, somehow the results are somewhat the same. Like we have a product, you know, it's just like the ingredients and like the how to are different, but like the end product is, you know, something spectacular.

Speaker 1: 10:55

No, you're right. I mean, that's pretty much like theme of this entire podcast. Like how do you do it? That's different from how I do it. So on that note, um, would you please tell listeners what is turning about?

Speaker 2: 11:10

Okay. So turning is my Y contemporary about Jeanie. She's a 17 year ballerina who had an act, it was a fall and she's going through these big changes because she was gonna be like this big ballerina next year, you know, she's gonna be a senior at high school. She was gonna get a company offer. You know, she had all these plans worked out, you know, she's great at what she does. She's a choreographer. And now she's in a wheelchair now, shes in physical therapy. Now she's dealing with, you know, old, these skeletons coming out of her closet. And she just wants to not remember why she's in this chair in the first place, but of course, you know, to go forward, she has to go back a little bit to kind of amend, you know, different relationships in her life. And along this journey, she meets Kyle, who's an, a gymnast and he has a TBI and they are both working out what it means to be something that they, they didn't imagine themselves to be. You know, it's a story about healing and like always story about grief, you know, let and go, you know, finding you, you know, Not wrapping yourself around the identity that you, you thought you were and what, instead of what you're becoming, you know, so unlike me, Jeanie does not go with the flow. So, um, you know, it's a, it's a pretty, it has some humor in it, you know, it has some darkness into it as well, but you know, it's a, I think it's a cute story.

Speaker 1: 12:43

Yeah. I mean, I would say that it's a really intense story. Um, and so I'm just gonna like launch right into some craft talk here. Um, because one of the, of things that really captured me about this book when I was reading it is that the emotions are so raw and so intense. And like from page one, like we are very much on this journey with genie and we are feeling every, everything, the frustration, the, the heartbreak, the anger that she's going through. And I mean, it, you really just put us right there inside her head and inside what she's feeling. So for starters, like what for you as a right, how do you go about capturing these emotion and getting them, translating them into words on the page in a way that, you know, really felt super authentic?

Speaker 2: 13:45

Um, that's a good question because, you know, I've never been through anything, you know, nearly as traumatic as that, you know, I've, I've had a pretty, you know, easy, you know, lucky life and things like that. But I think when I was writing Jeanie, I kind of put myself in a position of, because I'm really into like theater and like musical theater and like life performances. What if I couldn't see another Broadway show again, you know, things like that. And I, I know I would lose my mind, you know, so I, I, I kind of just kind of put that with Jeanie, like, you know, like the hurt of like, of knowing you had something you were so close, you know, we were all been there before, you know, you know, being so close to something and like maybe it slipping away somehow. Like, um, and I found myself when I was writing it, like I would, I felt, I felt like I felt angry when I was writing her, you know? Yeah. And so I, um, I just wanna, I just, it, I just felt like I needed to make sure that everyone knew the gravity of her situation, you know, you know what I mean?

Speaker 1: 14:45

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 14:46

Um, so I think I had put my myself in, yeah. I put myself into her in like the obsessive, like nature of like what she, what she does, which is, you know, ballet and like choreographing and things like that. And that's me, and like my theater and seeing shows and making sure that I have X amount of shows lined up for this month and next month and things like that. Um, so yeah, I, I just really wanted to, to read us to, to understand, you know, how serious this was for her, you know?

Speaker 1: 15:17

Yeah. Well, it absolutely comes across. Um, the book is written in first person. Was that like, from the beginning, you knew first person is gonna be the best way to tell this story, or did you play around on with different points of view?

Speaker 2: 15:34

It was always first person. I honestly don't know how to write anything else. So it's, you know, it's always first person, it's easier for me to kind of put myself in the, in the, the character shoes, if I write in first person and that way I can kind of manipulate everything in the story, you know, like I wanna see what they see, I wanna feel what they feel. Maybe I should became a method actor or something, I don't know.

Speaker 1: 15:58

Right. Your other calling.

Speaker 2: 16:01

Yeah. My other calling,

Speaker 1: 16:03

Well, I mean, it, this is one of those books where I'm not even sure that I could imagine it in third person. Like, it feels like it needs to be first person and I, as a reader, I mean, I feel like that's one of the great strengths, um, of first person writing is because it does put you right front and center with this character. It's almost inescapable in a way which translates really well to Jeanie's story.

Speaker 2: 16:31

Yeah. I wanted her to tell you what was going on.

Speaker 1: 16:34

Yeah. What about, um, like revision, like how much was her voice and, you know, some of these really intense, emotional moments that we go through, how much was from the first draft? Um, how much did it change over revisions? Did you have to, to pull back, did you have to dig deeper? Like what, how was that process like?

Speaker 2: 17:00

Um, I feel like with revised, it was pretty much a, a, a go deeper type of situation. Um, no one ever, no one told me to scale back anything really. Um, I did, well maybe a little bit. I felt I had to scale back, um, her little, her, well with me type moments, You know, like, um, we were like, we don't want her to be so, so unlikable. And so, you know, like down in the dumps, like we want her, you know, to, to hold her head up at some, sometimes, you know, like her life isn't completely over and we didn't want to offend, you know, anybody, you know? So I just, so that was the only thing that we kind of scaled back on, but I kind of covered it over with adding more humor, You know, like she's kind of witty and has like a sense of humor. So I kinda use that. I think I added, I probably added more. I tried, I tried to add more like funny moments, a little likely comments, you know, to kind of balance it out a little bit.

Speaker 1: 18:02

Yeah, no, she such an interesting character because it's almost like, like you almost have two different genie's you have the, before Jeanie, um, and the after Jeanie, and of course we are in the head of after Jeanie, but you can see like in different things that she says, or in different ways that, uh, people around her are relating to her, like we get little glimpses of before Jeanie. Um, and of course of the, the story is kind of seeing that genie rise to the surface again, or maybe not rise to the surface. Maybe it's like creating genie number three at the end of the story.

Speaker 2: 18:39

Yeah. That's a good point. Yeah. Um, I feel like I wanted to, the thing with Jeanie is she's a very confident person. So I wanted, I think that's her, you know, just before and after she's just, that's who she is, you know, she thinks highly of herself, but I think after her accident, it kind of like bruises her ego a little bit. I think she can become more egotistical. And I think after her accident, it bruised it a lot. So you get, uh, you get the, the rude side to her more. So the, the ha uh, you know, I'm so funny, like side, like I know I'm this great person side, you know, you get the, the fury side of genie, you know, after her accident.

Speaker 1: 19:23

No, but again, like it all is so believable, you know, for who she is and what she's going through, and like it, who wouldn't be feeling these feelings who wouldn't be feeling this anger, this, you know, resentment, and yet seeing the way that she, uh, fights to overcome some of that and the way that different people help her out over the course of the story. Um, oh, sorry, one second. Sorry. My husband forgot. I wasn't doing an interview right now. Um, you know, seeing the way that other people, you know, kind of help bring her, I, you know what, I've lost my train of thought. I'm sorry.

Speaker 2: 20:02

It's OK.

Speaker 1: 20:04

Um, so one other thing that I wanted to talk about, uh, is researching for this because, you know, of course, as a writer, I know we are not our characters. And yet, while I was reading this book, I absolutely would've assumed that the author was someone who legitimately knows what it is like to live in a wheelchair. Um, and so many little details, things that we completely take for granted that you don't even think of about, you know, opening doors, going to the bathroom, um, basic self care things are really difficult and she ha she is learning an entirely new lifestyle for herself. Um, so talk to me a little bit about your research and how you went about figuring out what is life like for this girl now newly in a wheelchair?

Speaker 2: 20:55

Yeah. I mean, I had to, I had to figure out like where I wanted her injury to be able to type of injury. I wanted her to have. And with spinal injuries, you, you kind of run, you know, a whole spectrum of like abilities. And I gave her a really low level injury. So I guess I kind of made it easier on myself a little bit. And also just the fact that she was a dancer, her abilities would be easier to adjust to because, you know, she has, like, she's been, she's just using her body a, a lot more like her upper body strength and things like that. But I did watch a lot of two videos on like transferring in and outta chairs, you know, like PT exercises. And, um, I did a lot of, um, like form searching or like, um, on spinal, like, um, spinal injury, like forms and things like that. I also had sensitivity readers, which are so, so, so, so, so, so useful throughout the, the, throughout my journey in writing, especially my last two sensitivity readers, they were so great at like letting me know cause they, they both use wheelchairs. So they would let me know like what works, you know, like maybe make sure that the doors do this. So like she would have to go faster through doors. Mm. Because it's usually like a hump or something, you know, to go over it. And I'm was like, wow. I thought I had, you know, sometimes you think you had thought about everything, but you, you just can't when you're not, you don't use a wheelchair. Yeah. So yeah. I use sensitivity readers and YouTube videos. And, you know, the web,

Speaker 1: 22:24

Was there anything in your research that particularly surprised you or, or anything that like really challenged the story that you were trying to write that you were like, oh, and now I have to like completely rethink this scene or anything like that?

Speaker 2: 22:40

I, I feel like I, I used a lot of liberties with, um, her apartment, like in, in honesty, she probably would not have gone back to that apartment to live because it's just not acceptable, you know, for a chair, you know, she grew up in, you know, she lives in Brooklyn and I'm thinking like I grew up in Brooklyn, I'm like in the building, which I saw her house. I'm like, there's no way, not even with a ramp. It, it wouldn't be that feasible. But, um, I think that, I think I took a lot of liberties. I'm like, yeah, maybe, maybe doors are a little bit wider, you know, like, um, maybe her bathroom isn't that small, you know, like things like that. But I, I don't know. I feel like a lot of it was caught and I didn't really have to change too much. Just more so clarifications of things like that. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 23:30

Making sure you're getting the details, right.

Speaker 2: 23:32

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 23:33

Yeah. What about ballet? Like you mentioned that you have some experience, um, of musical theater. Did you come into writing this book with knowledge of ballet and what Jeanie's life as an aspiring ballerina was like? Or did you also have to do like a deep dive into that?

Speaker 2: 23:52

Um, I'm a fan of ballet and I've always been, I've been for like years and things like that. I'm not a dancer. So like, I, I did have to do a lot of like, um, soul searching, I guess. I did, you know, YouTube was my best friend. I particularly like watching, um, classes and, uh, I chose the Vava style of ballet because I just really enjoy like the way the Russians do ballet, you know? And so I, I watched a lot of their Vava academy classes on YouTube and, um, I just, you know, I just really had to like really talk to dancers as well. Like, is this right? I actually had one a friend. Um, thanks Erica. By the way, she, um, actually showed me what Jeanie's dance would look like because she's a ballet dancer. And I was like, oh wow, thank you. Because, you know, I can see, I can see the steps in my head, but can't do them myself.

Speaker 1: 24:48

Oh, how cool.

Speaker 2: 24:50

Yeah. So she made a video for me to show me what it would look like. And she was like, maybe this seems a bit awkward. And she, she helped me kind of like, um, change the, the, the dance a little bit, you know?

Speaker 1: 25:03

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 25:04

So I, I really appreciated that.

Speaker 1: 25:06

I love that you ever, we're gonna be able to share that video.

Speaker 2: 25:10

I can ask her.

Speaker 1: 25:11

You should, what a cool, like promo detail that would be,

Speaker 2: 25:16

Yeah. I can ask her if, if that's okay to share.

Speaker 1: 25:19

Yeah. Well, it's obviously, you know, between the two of you, but I think that's really, really cool. I know, like I've never written, um, like a dance before, like is talked about in this book. Um, but I know for, like, for fight scenes, I'm always around in my office, like choreographing, like, okay, if this person tumbles this way, and then they're gonna punch up this way and it's, you know, it's its own sort of choreography. So it is so helpful having like a visual to work off of

Speaker 2: 25:48

Helps to like, talk about this type of stuff that I like to see when I watch my legs. I'm like more turning, more, turning, more, turning, more leads, more leads and

Speaker 1: 25:57

Turning, keep spinning.

Speaker 2: 25:58

Yeah. I love that.

Speaker 1: 26:00

No, me too. Me too. Um, I know one of the details that, um, just stood out to me, was it one point you talk about a foot stretcher. I'm like, what an earth is a foot stretcher. Like, why do these ballerinas do this to themselves?

Speaker 2: 26:15

I watch a lot of documentaries about ballet. So yes, they do a lot of, a lot of interesting stuff for their art and I'm just like, oh, it can never be me, but I appreciate it so much.

Speaker 1: 26:25

Yeah, no, it is so, so admirable. Um, they, what they can get their bodies to do. It's so cool. Um, OK. I wanna switch gears again. Uh, I really wanna talk about how you go about developing the relationships, um, in your work, because obviously we're in Jeanie's perspective, um, we're in her head, so we're seeing everybody, you know, through her lens. Um, but over the course of the story, like there's a number of relationships and they are all super complex, um, and super different from one another. Um, so I wanna start with her mom because the family dynamics between the two of them are so interesting and complicated. Like they're both just overcome with so much frustration toward each other, and yet they're still this subtext of love and compassion, and it was just a really great relationship. So what was your approach, um, when you came to developing the two of them and how you were gonna write their story?

Speaker 2: 27:41

You know, that relationship with actually really hard for me to write. And I think I probably went through a lot of different variations of her mom. Like in some versions she was still an active drinker and, you know, and that kind of changes a lot of things. And then I changed it to no she's recovering, you know, things like that. Or there was a version where it's, she, she slipped back into drinking and I was like, eh, you know, but, um, I think what's what was challenging about their relationship is, you know, I have a pretty good relationship with my mom. So I'm like, Ooh, like, I don't know. I really had to think about like what it's like to, to, to live with someone that you have such like a, a really difficult history with, but you still like love and you still, you know, want to get to know more, but, you know, there's a lot there in between. And the one thing that kind of kept you together, you know, was kind of taken away, which is, which is so I had to more so explore along with Jeanie, you know, that, I think that's kind of what made it easier for me. We both were going through it together, I guess, you know, that sort of thing. And, and, and also because her mom was a teen mom, I had to think about, you know, she's not like this really old, like mature lady, you know, so, you know, her mom is closer to aids that I am now. So I just had to of think about like how she would respond to, you know, a teenager herself, you know, especially when you know that, you know, is hers, you know? Yeah. So it was, it, it was pretty hard, I would say. And there were times when my editor was like, oh no, no, no, no, no. Like she totally would not let her daughter speak to her this way. You know, regardless of like, like how she's fit, you know, you know, she would be like, you, you have to rectify, you know, what's happening in this moment. And I think about the, the scene where after Kyle gets hurt, you know, Nolan hurts him and, oh, sorry, spoiler for anybody. Um, um, they had like this really big kind of like argument out in the open. And my editor really worked me really hard on getting that right. And she was like, there's a lot that needs to happen here. And, you know, like Jeanie needs to apologize to mommy needs to, you know, but not, you know, but not for the reasons you think they need to apologize, you know, there's a lot going on. So I think it took a very long time yeah. To get right.

Speaker 1: 30:13

No, you're right. I mean, there is a lot going on. Um, and you know, trying to like craft this relat it, that has been through this just incredibly traumatic thing. And yet also maintain that balance of like mother and daughter, like who is in charge here. And yeah, I can, I can imagine as a writer that you would, if it were me, like, I'd be like every draft. Okay. Now I'm gonna think about this detail. Now I'm gonna see if I can work on this detail. Was that, is that kind of accurate to how you were feeling as you were going through it?

Speaker 2: 30:50

It was because like, I was like, I don't know, like how to, how to, how to make them, like, I'm, like, I never had such a big fight with my mother before, like, you know, like, yeah. I'm like, I actually like my mom, you know, like she's done nothing to me. I'm not traumatized anything she's done. So it was really like, I really, really had to put myself in a position of like both of their positions actually, like from Jeanie's mom and, and Jeanie herself. I'm just like, something's gotta give here, you know, like, yeah. But I'm really, it, it really helped that I love editors because she's, she's a mom herself. So she was just like, here's what I think would happen. And I'm like, right. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you.

Speaker 1: 31:29

Yeah, no for sure. Um, I love it too. Cuz you can kind of see Jeanie in her mom, um, or maybe vice versa. You can see her mom in Jeanie. Like they both have this stubbornness to them. You can see how like this, their personalities kind of butt heads and you know, it just felt like really, really authentic. Um, but as a mom, myself, like my kids are seven, so we're not dealing with like nearly the same sort of thing. But there were moments in the book where I was like, oh, I've heard that SAS from my before that is familiar. Um, okay. Moving on. Uh, another relationship, uh, that I wanna talk about is Nolan. The ex-boyfriend who is super toxic. Is it it's, it's not spoilery to say that he's a super toxic relationship, is it?

Speaker 2: 32:21

No, I don't think so.

Speaker 1: 32:22

Yeah. Um, you know, there's like so many red with this boy, uh, and yet it's very realistic why Jeanie was drawn to him in the first place. Um, it's very realistic why she is struggling to now put distance between her and him. Uh, what were some of the challenges that, that relationship presented and how did you overcome them

Speaker 2: 32:48

Again? It's just, I've I've, you know, in high school I did not have like a boyfriend or anything. I'm just like girl, like just like ignore him, you know, like that's how I felt. But like, you know, when you go through what Jeanie has gone through as like a child, you know, with her own mother, her own father and there's someone who's there, you know, who's telling you like all the right things, you know, who's seemingly you know, like onto the, the path that you're kind of going on, like you both, you know, the confidence, you know, like the, the drive, you know, all these things that you need is attracted to that. She thinks, you know, make her feel better and make her look better and things like that. So I, you know, it was really hard to write for Nolan because he also had so many different versions of himself throughout the drafts that I've written. And, um, I think I settled on definitely, definitely a more toxic type of Nolan. And I think what was hard for me was making sure that while Nolan is a, you know, a bad guy and I'll put that in, in air quotes, you know, that he also has his own story, you know, and his own, I guess, demons to work through as well, you know, and, and, and how to put that together. But, but while, but, but also because I write for teenagers, I want teenagers to know that, you know, it doesn't matter, you know what someone's going through. If you're being treated, you know, the way you shouldn't be treated, you know, you need to get help, you need to step back. You need to find a way to, you know, to, to get to your own safe space again. And I think that was hard, you know, making sure that I told their story, but also I wanted it to be kind of like a warning, you know, to teenager as well, because it's kind of re it's a responsibility, right. For teenagers as well. You know, I want them to recognize red flags and to be like, oh, I need help. You know, like, oh, maybe this is something I should talk to someone about, you know, before moving forward. Yeah. And yeah, I think if Jeanie, maybe a Jeanie red turn and you know, herself, maybe she would've gotten the help that she needed before, you know, things got so bad.

Speaker 1: 35:00

Yeah, no, it's true. Because of course it's always easier when you're on the outside looking in to pick up on some of these warning signs. Um, and the fact of the matter is we do find ourself ourselves in terrible relationships sometimes. And it can be really hard when you're in the midst of it to see what it is that you've gotten yourself into. And I think when you can kind of be the one on the outside looking in and you can see it in that regard, um, that I think it does kind of help to shine a light sometimes on reality. And what's, what's happening in our what's happening in our own lives.

Speaker 2: 35:42

And yeah, it also helps to know that, you know, because also it's also personality. Like she has a kind of, I can fix it myself type of personality and then it kind of gets too big and she's like, oh, I can't fix it myself, but she's also not gonna ask the either because she's, you know, she, she has a lot of pride and stuff like that. So it was really hard to write that respectfully.

Speaker 1: 36:04

Yeah. Yeah. Um, so as we've talked about, you know, there's a lot of big things, um, and a lot of difficult things in this book. I mean, obviously there's, there's the obvious, the trauma of her accident, um, trying to navigate life with, you know, now being in a wheelchair. Um, but there's also like we're, there's domestic abuse, there's, uh, psychological abuse. Um, there's, uh, alcoholism talked about like, there's a lot of big topics covered in, in this book. Um, and I know from experience that writing about tough topics, it can take a toll on us as the writers when we are in this story. And in this character's head day after day, um, for you, like, what did you do to kind of practice self care or kind to take care of yourself when, um, when maybe things started to feel really difficult when you were writing this book?

Speaker 2: 37:06

You know, I just put on my Sheltons and I just listen. You know, I watch my favorite musicals. I watch my favorite TV shows. I, you know, talk to my sister think like that. Um, for me, I, I compartmentalize a lot, so it's pretty easy for me to just kind of like, oh, once I close my laptop, that's it, you know, sort of thing. But I know that's not the case for like every writer, but I, I, I recognize that I, I'm not genie. And, you know, once I've done typing, like I can kind of let go to any two, if I was writing or I would write if I felt myself getting too a angry, I would write, you know, something happy, you know, or I would work on another story that maybe isn't so, so dark, you know, things like that.

Speaker 1: 37:53

Yeah. Yeah. I definitely felt like the chapters with Kyle were such a breath of fresh air throughout the book. Um, and I, I mean, I have to imagine that you kind of felt the same way writing those as well.

Speaker 2: 38:05

Definitely. Yeah. A lot more. He's very sweet. And it, it made me smile, you know, because I always thought to him as someone who smiled. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 38:14

So, no, he was such a great character. I was so charmed by him. Um, I was Jeanie obviously. So one of my favorite lines from the book, and this is just, just briefly before we move onto our bonus round, uh, one of the things, so Jeanie has this, um, ballet teacher, this mentor that she's worked with, uh, who, you know, is obviously like a huge deal in Jeanie's life. Um, and one of the pieces of advice that the teacher gives her at one point, um, is create don't hesitate. And I wrote that down specifically because I feel like it could be the mantra for so many people in creative fields. Obviously she's a dancer, but how much does that apply to us writers? Like just sit down and make something don't overthink it. Don't worry. Don't stress yourself out. Create don't hesitate. I want it like on a build Lord. Um, so what do those three little words mean to you?

Speaker 2: 39:22

That's so that's so interesting that you, you, you locked onto that because I added that in like, during like past pages, really? Yeah. Like it was like maybe first pass or something like that, like very early on and the editing, I added that because that was not there at all, but, and so I'm glad to like that, but I tell, like, I kind of tell my sister this all the time, because my sister's a writer as well, but she, she has like terrible writing block and she'll just not write at all. Hmm. And I'll just be like, just put anything down, like on a page chart, like go on, like, just, just write anything, you know, like she, you know, you'll get the help you need, you know, after the words are there, you, you can't edit anything that isn't there. She's just like, I, I can't do it. So I think I kind of drew on that when, when I wrote that cooling. And so like how I, how I want my sister to kind of work on herself and her writing, you know, just create, don't hesitate, just write. And that's how I write. I just write anything and everything. And then I'll worry about it later.

Speaker 1: 40:22

Yeah,

Speaker 2: 40:24

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 40:25

Worry about it later. That's such good advice.

Speaker 2: 40:29

Yep. Just go with the flow. Worry about later.

Speaker 1: 40:33

This is what we've learned from joy L Smith today. Just go with the flow. All right, Joey, are you ready for our bonus round?

Speaker 2: 40:41

So ready?

Speaker 1: 40:43

Plotter or pants?

Speaker 2: 40:45

Pants,

Speaker 1: 40:46

Music or silence?

Speaker 2: 40:48

Music.

Speaker 1: 40:50

I knew you were gonna say music. What is your favorite writing? Snack or beverage?

Speaker 2: 40:57

Ooh, Ooh. Hmm. Probably either. I'll say a soda. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 41:04

Any specific soda?

Speaker 2: 41:07

Uh, Dr. Pepper,

Speaker 1: 41:09

Ballet or gymnastics?

Speaker 2: 41:12

Ballet

Speaker 1: 41:13

Dancer or choreographer?

Speaker 2: 41:18

Choreographer,

Speaker 1: 41:21

Ballet or musical theater?

Speaker 2: 41:24

Musical theater.

Speaker 1: 41:26

Do you have any writing rituals

Speaker 2: 41:31

Have a seat? That's it? That's it

Speaker 1: 41:35

Don't hesitate.

Speaker 2: 41:37

Don't hesitate.

Speaker 1: 41:38

What is your favorite thing to do that has nothing to do with reading or writing?

Speaker 2: 41:45

Watching TV.

Speaker 1: 41:47

What is one small thing that brings you a lot of joy?

Speaker 2: 41:52

My play bill collection.

Speaker 1: 41:54

What's your favorite musical. Now I have to ask,

Speaker 2: 41:58

Ooh, waitress.

Speaker 1: 42:00

Waitress. I have not seen it.

Speaker 2: 42:02

Oh, it's on tour. You should go see it.

Speaker 1: 42:04

I, I will. If it comes through Seattle, I will make a point of it.

Speaker 2: 42:08

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 42:09

What book makes you happy? What are you working on next?

Speaker 2: 42:22

The theater story of my heart.

Speaker 1: 42:26

Can you tell us anything about it?

Speaker 2: 42:28

Oh, yes. It's just about what happens when you don't show up for your high school musical and you have to leave.

Speaker 1: 42:36

Oh, I love books about musicals. I look forward to it.

Speaker 2: 42:42

Yay. Lastly, hopefully I'll finish it then.

Speaker 1: 42:45

Yeah. Right. Get busy. Create joy.

Speaker 2: 42:49

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 42:51

Lastly, where can people find you?

Speaker 2: 42:53

You can find me on Twitter at joy rights and on Instagram at joy, joy, Wrights, but lowercase letters.

Speaker 1: 43:01

Awesome. Thank you so much for joining me today.

Speaker 2: 43:04

Thank you for having me. So I'm so glad I got to do this. This is very fun

Speaker 1: 43:09

Readers. I hope you will check out turning it is available. Now, of course, we encourage you to support your local indie bookstore. If you don't have a local indie, you can check out our affiliate store at bookshop.org/shop/marisa Meyer. Next week, I will be talking with Newberry metal winner, Erin and Trada Kelly about her newest middle grade novel. Those kids from FA Creek. If you're enjoying this conversations, please subscribe and follow us on Instagram at Marisa Meyer author and at happy writer podcast. Until next time stay healthy, stay cozy and whatever life throws at you today. I hope that now you're feeling a little bit happier.