The Happy Writer with Marissa Meyer
Scrabble, Murder Mysteries, and Trusting Your Intuition with Hanna Alkaf - Queen of the Tiles
Marissa chats with Hanna Alkaf about her new YA murder mystery - QUEEN OF THE TILES - as well as some challenges that are unique to the mystery genre, and how writing a mystery plot is a bit like conducting an ongoing excavation; what to do when your craft skills aren't yet to the point where you feel you can do your story justice, and how it's okay to set a project aside in order to focus on developing your craft and confidence (remember, you can always come back to it!); the difference between reading for pleasure and reading with the intent of uncovering another author's secrets; and how self-doubt can lead us to limit our creativity and our careers. Plus: You should totally bookmark this episode for the next time you need an encouraging pep talk and a reminder to trust your intuition. (You're not the only one!)
The Happy Writer at Bookshop.org
Purchasing your books through our webstore at Bookshop.org supports independent bookstores.
Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.
Find out more and follow The Happy Writer on social media: https://www.marissameyer.com/podcast/
Marissa chats with Hanna Alkaf about her new YA murder mystery - QUEEN OF THE TILES - as well as some challenges that are unique to the mystery genre, and how writing a mystery plot is a bit like conducting an ongoing excavation; what to do when your craft skills aren't yet to the point where you feel you can do your story justice, and how it's okay to set a project aside in order to focus on developing your craft and confidence (remember, you can always come back to it!); the difference between reading for pleasure and reading with the intent of uncovering another author's secrets; and how self-doubt can lead us to limit our creativity and our careers. Plus: You should totally bookmark this episode for the next time you need an encouraging pep talk and a reminder to trust your intuition. (You're not the only one!)
The Happy Writer at Bookshop.org
Purchasing your books through our webstore at Bookshop.org supports independent bookstores.
Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.
Find out more and follow The Happy Writer on social media: https://www.marissameyer.com/podcast/
Hello, and welcome to the happy writer. This is a podcast that aims to bring readers, more books, to enjoy and to help authors find more joy in their writing. I am your host Marisa Meyer. Thank you for me today. One thing that is making me happy this week is that I am not working on cursed. I'm supposed to be working on cursed, but the copy editor is late. It was supposed to come back to me a week ago and I am really, really happy about this, cuz I was not feeling ready and mentally, emotionally prepared to be back in that world. And so when I heard the copy editor needed more time, I was like, hooray. My vacation continues. So I have been of course still writing. I can't not write, but I've been dabbling in some really fun side projects. Do a lot of research, a lot of reading and all of the fun things that don't feel like work. Uh, and I'm sure now that I've said this out loud, how happy I am that curse? Isn't back in my inbox yet. I'll probably check my email. As soon as this recording is done and boom, there, it will be I'm jinxing myself. I know it, but regardless it has made me really happy this week to get, to continue to work on some fun side projects for a little while. Of course I am also so happy to be talking to today's guest. She holds a degree in journalism from Northwestern university and has worked as a marketing copywriter, a senior writer at a major fashion and lifestyle magazine and a communications manager for a nonprofit in education. She's also the author of the Y novel, the weight of our sky and the middle grade novel, the girl and the ghost, her newest Y queen of the tiles comes out next week on April 19th. Please. Welcome HANA aloff.
Speaker 2:Yay. Thank you so much for having Mesa. This is such an honor.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for joining me and joining me all the way from Malaysia. Is that right?
Speaker 2:<laugh> that's right. Yes. It's very early in the morning here.
Speaker 1:I know it's, it's so happy that you were willing to get early and talk to us. Thank you. These time differences can be really tricky sometimes.
Speaker 2:Yes. Uh, I'm constantly wrestling with time zones. So it's, I'm very used to having calls and interviews at all sorts of odd hours. Um, and this is actually a really nice hour. Like I've had interviews at like midnight and, and things like that. So this is a, this is right. This is all right. I'm up. Oh
Speaker 1:Good. And
Speaker 2:I'm good. I'm ready.
Speaker 1:I'm so glad. No, we try, try. I try to like, not make my guest miserable.<laugh> would just be mean what, what hours are you up in the morning that you can talk to me? Um, yeah. So thank you for joining me. Uh, the first question that I ask all of our guests here is I would like you to tell us your author origin story. How did you become a writer?
Speaker 2:Well, um, I've actually always been interested in words and in writing ever since I was little, uh, I was a voracious reader. Um, my dad used to complain because he would buy me books at the bookstore and then I'd start reading them in the car on the way home. And then by the time we got home, I'd be like halfway through or almost done sometimes. And then he'd get really mad because he was like, why didn't we waste this money, buy you this book, I should have just left you at the store.<laugh> and I'd be like, no, no, I'll reread them. It be, it'll be fine. Like, um, so I've always been a kid who was very, very into reading. Um, and I attempted to write my first stories when I was pretty young. Um, but I was a kid who you have to understand. I grew up in Malaysia where many of the books that, uh, are, were written in English when I was a child. Um, and it to, to some extent, even now are books that are imported from Western countries, um, from the UK, from the us, the major publishing hubs. And so I grew up on stories of, you know, blonde blue eye children who grew up on farms and uh, talking animals that I I've never really seen in real life and, and things like that. And so the stories that I attempted, the stories that I attempted in the beginning were people by these sorts of characters, because that's what I, I knew. Um, and then when I was around 11 years old, I was in a bookstore and I looked around and I realized that the books that were around me and the books that I was picking out and reading, none of them featured characters, uh, that looked like me or my family. Um, and none of them had none of the authors on those book covers had names that sounded like mine. And so what I had internalized was, and for believed for a really long time, was that people like me, we, we just don't get to write those kinds of stories. Mm. Um, we don't get to be those kinds of authors. Um, and so if we talk about origin stories, I didn't start writing fiction until I was about 30 years old.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow.
Speaker 2:Um, I didn't, I wrote one short story that was published when I was 18. Um, and then after that, it was just kind of like, well, what's, what's the point? Where, where is this going? Like, who am I writing for? Like where would I be, even be published? Like, I really believed that I, I, there just wasn't a place for in publishing mm-hmm<affirmative>. Um, and then at around 30 years old, I was freelancing. I had given birth to my, I had two kids by then. Um, and I was trying to set goals for myself cause I was like, you know, when you're freelancing, you're the only person who can do that for you. Nobody's setting you, you know, goals and KPIs and things that you have to meet. Um, and so I thought to myself, okay, what's next? What's the next challenge. Um, and I started thinking about writing fiction. Um, and so I started with short stories and I was like, okay, maybe I can figure out how to get published low, you know, work my way up. Um, and so after I started doing those things and I started thinking, okay, what's the challenge after that? Like what, what, what can I do now? Um, and then I started thinking, can I write more than just, you know, a thousand to 3000 words at a time, am I capable of writing a novel? And so my first novel, which ended up being my debut novel, the weight of our sky was really, it just really started out as a challenge to myself to see whether I could write more than short stories. Um, and it worked out<laugh>.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And that's my origin story, because for the longest time, I thought the only way as person in Malaysia who loved to write, I thought the only legit way that I could do that was by becoming a journalist mm-hmm<affirmative>, which is why I ended up studying journalism in the first place.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah. That's how it started out.
Speaker 1:At what point when you were writing that first novel, did you start to think about publication?
Speaker 2:Um, to be very honest with you? I think it was probably when I was getting towards the end, because I was like, now what do I do with this
Speaker 1:<laugh>
Speaker 2:I spent, I spent so long working on this and, and it was a time when my daughter was still so small that she was still breastfeeding. Um, and so I was writing and, and, and I was a stay-at-home mom. I was a stay-at-home mom who was freelancing as a journalist at the same time. And so I was writing in these drips and dribbles between doing all these childcare and home care things. Right. Mm-hmm<affirmative> um, and a lot of this writing was done from when the kids were asleep at night and while the kids were asleep at night, but my daughter was still breastfeeding. So it would be like, okay, I would write for a chunk, like from nine to like midnight or 1:00 AM, but in between I'd have to pause and like breastfeed her and then put her down again and then write some more. And then like, so it was one of those things where I was like, you know, I have put so much work into this. I need to figure out what am I going to do with it. Right. And so, uh, based on this subject matter, because it was such a, a, my, my debut novels, but was based on a, an actual historical event that occurred in Malaysia, um, which were these massive race riots that occurred in the capital in 1969. And so based on this matter, I was worried about, um, trying to publish the book locally mm-hmm<affirmative> cause, um, it's pretty sensitive subject matter. Uh, it's the kind of thing you can get into trouble for discussing, uh, sometimes depending on, you know,<laugh> many variables, um, and I kind of wanted that history to get out beyond just us, like beyond the borders of Malaysia. And so I started researching how to make that happen. And that was a whole new world<laugh> because I, I knew nothing. I had, no, I was not one of those authors who started writing with a view of publication. Right. So I wasn't part of the ye community online. I, I knew nothing about literary agents, such things don't even exist here or didn't at the time, I, I, I knew nothing about big fives or anything like that. I, I was basically going in completely clueless. Um, and I had to do this research and try and figure out what I was actually doing.<laugh>
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Um, while I was doing the same thing for writing a novel, cuz I had never done that either. So I was figuring that out too.<laugh> um, at the same time. And so I decided, you know what, um, I'm just gonna give it a shot. Uh, I didn't tell anybody that I was doing this except my husband. I didn't tell anybody I was writing a novel and I didn't tell anybody that I was querying agents, um, except for my, my husband, because I was like, you know, what, if I fail, nobody will know<laugh>, we'll just, we'll just set this whole thing aside and be like, well, back to freelancing, I guess like, um, I just, I just didn't cause I was like, it's such a, to me at the time it was such an impossible dream kind of thing. Um, it was just kind of a shot in the dark<laugh> and so I was just kinda like, okay, you know what? I'll, I'll try it. And if, if nothing happens, nobody needs to know. And if something happens well then great. Like something happened, you know, what do I have to lose besides the many hours that I spent working on this in
Speaker 1:The world? Right. Yeah. Always that
Speaker 2:I have lost some sleep. So what I was the parent of like two small children, I was losing sleep anyway. Um, so I, I started, you know, I put together a query and I started, I made a list of agents and I was like, all right, we're just, we're just gonna do it. And then to my amazement, um, I had my first full request, like three hours after I sent, oh my gosh, my first query. And I had my first offer of rep two weeks after I had started querying. And I was just sort of in shock that it was all happening. It's
Speaker 1:Incredible.
Speaker 2:So fast. It was all happening so fast. And I, I had no idea it to do because, um, I didn't know anybody who had been in that position. Yeah. There are a handful of Malaysian authors who are published in the mainstream, um, in the us or in the UK, these big publishing markets. But at the time that I was trying to, to get through all this, uh, most of them were living in other countries. Like they weren't based in Malaysia anymore. And so I had no sort of template to follow. Um, I was just kind of going out and doing it<laugh> on my own. And like I said, I wasn't going to tell anybody cause I, I had no idea. I had no idea if this was even a thing. I didn't know if agents were really taking authors that weren't based where they are. Yeah. I just, I had no idea. And so I was just kind of like, all right, we'll give it a shot. And then as it turns out, the shot hit, like it worked. So yeah. That's that's
Speaker 1:So what of your, your friends and family say when you're like surprised by publishing a book?
Speaker 2:<laugh> uh, they were, I, I, I'm not sure. Actually I've never actually asked them. So what did you think when I first did this? Um, my dad is the type of person who likes to know how things happen. Mm-hmm<affirmative>. And so I explained to him that I had literary agent now, and we were going to start submitting this novel. He had a lot of questions about how American publishing works. Mm-hmm<affirmative> um, what is literary agent? Like? What are you paying? How are you getting Connie? Are you exactly like there wanted to know? And he used because he used to be a banker. Right. So he has, his mind is very set on like processes. And so<laugh>, I had to explain the process to him while I was still learning the process. Like, I didn't even know what all the entire process was. I was just like, oh, this is as far as I know, this is how it happens and I'm not being scammed. Like these agencies existed for a long time, like, and stuff like that. Like I it's just, it was kind of overwhelming. Yeah. Um, I bet because I still felt like such an unknown quantity in so many, um, like there's a local writing community here and there's a Y community that I accessed like online obviously. Um, but I quite feel part of either because I just sort of decided to do this on my own. Like I hadn't, there hadn't been a plan<laugh> there was no plan. I hadn't made time to create a community, like to reach out to community and, and, and things like that. Like I was just for a while, I was really overwhelmed because I Had nobody ask these questions to had nobody like no template to follow. As I said, uh, nobody who was in the trenches with me because I just, it went backwards for me. Like, I didn't think to that I was going to need that kind of support system or things like that. Yeah. Yeah. And it's weird trying to explain things that are happening to, to people who have no idea what that means, because my husband can be really great and supportive and cheer me on and stuff, but he doesn't get it.<laugh> right.
Speaker 1:No, it really is a bizarre world and a bizarre industry. And even just a being writers, like coming up with stories, it's a weird thing that we do. People don't really get it<laugh>
Speaker 2:We really don't. And so those, those first few months where all of this was happening was really kind of overwhelming until like, I feel a lot more settled now because I have friends and like community, and I know who I can turn to, um, when I need, you know, support and, and stuff like that. But it, those first few months, when I think back on it, it was just really, really, it was a lot<laugh>, it was a lot to handle. Yeah. And things happened really fast, which is not the norm. I don't want anybody listening to this to think that I'm some kind of special unicorn or that this is the norm or, you know, like things just happened really fast for me. I think that was just like a convergence of luck and timing and factors that really had nothing to do with me. Um, it might have been the time of year that I queried and agents had a little more time to read through their submissions, you know, it just, it was just, and, and getting that first offer in like two weeks after like that, that doesn't happen.
Speaker 1:It's very, very fast. It's very unusual.
Speaker 2:It's super, it's super unusual. And like, so I don't want people, um, writers, aspiring writers who, who listen to this to think that that needs to be well, what your timeline is like, like, yeah, It's just, it's, it's super unusual. And like I said, it it's to do with factors that largely had nothing to do with me. Um, but yeah, I just wanted to quickly mention that because I don't want anybody feel like they have to compare, um, what the timeline is and what the journey is because
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, no, it's part of the reason I like asking that question. Um, and it was actually that question itself, you know, what's your origin story was inspired by, um, a listener who was like, I would just love to hear like how all of these amazing writers became writers. And I love asking it now because everyone's story is different. And I think for aspiring, it's good to hear everything on the spectrum. It's good to hear your story of, you know, the, the query letter sent off three hours later, the request two weeks later, the, the signing with the agent, like, it's great to hear that story. And it's also great to hear the story of the author whose eighth book finally sold after 12 years in the querying trenches. Like we are all over the board. It's all. Okay. You get there eventually.<laugh>
Speaker 2:Right. Exactly.
Speaker 1:Yeah. OK. So here we are. Now your third book is coming out in a week. Uh, so exciting. Would you please tell listeners what is queen of the tiles about,
Speaker 2:Sorry, I just had a brief moment of like, wow. She said third book, a book's so intense.
Speaker 1:That
Speaker 2:Is so weird to think about<laugh>. Uh, so queen of the tiles is a young adult murder mystery that follows our main character N Dua in the who's dealing with the aftermath of her best friend. Trina's sudden death at a Scrabble tournament the year before. Um, and she's decided that she wants to get back into this world of Scrabble. Again, the, because Scrabble to N is such a central part of her life. Um, but while she's at the tournament, it seems to be going well, she's hanging out with her friends. She's getting back into the groove of playing these games. Um, when suddenly Trina's Instagram account comes back to life with these cryptic messages that seem to suggest that Trina's death, wasn't an accident and that somebody at the tournament had something to do with it. And so NWE has to figure out what exactly is happening, um, so that not only to save herself and her friends, but to preserve Trina's memory, which is very important to her. Um, and so that's basically what green tiles is about.<laugh>
Speaker 1:Well, I remember first hearing about this book. I wanna say that I maybe heard about it, um, as like part of the publisher's weekly when they post deals. Right. Um, and like give the brief little synopsis, which would've been, I don't know, a year or two ago. Um, and I immediately like wrote a note, like read this book. I love the premise. I love Scrabble. Um, and like a murder mystery set at a Scrabble competition, like be still my nerdy heart<laugh> um, so where, where did that even come from? Like why Scrabble?
Speaker 2:Um,<laugh> well, I don't know how people will feel about this. I used to play competitive Scrabble. You
Speaker 1:Did. I was gonna ask as a, I was like, how good are you as a team?
Speaker 2:I spent some time playing competitive Scrabble. And I grew up in a household where my brother before me, um, my brother's six years older than I am. So there's quite a large gap. But as a team, he also played competitive Scrabble and he was a lot more hardcore than I was because he went to weekend tournaments with his team and he had these like printouts of word lists and stuff that he would study. And so I spent a lot of time when I was a kid faring him, like tagging along with my mom, she carried him back and forth, you know, to these tournaments. Um, and I just remember thinking about how interesting that was like this a group of people just United in Scrabble and strategy. Um, and it was fascinating to me because I realized that competitive Scrabble had nothing to do with words.<laugh> like, it has nothing to do with words, as we, as writers, think about words, mm-hmm,<affirmative>, they're literally just units that you used to to get points. They're just combinations of letters that you have to move around to get the highest possible points. So it's a lot more about strategy than it is about the words themselves, which I found fascinating as a kid who was fascinated with words. Yeah. Um, it, they were just coming at it from an angle that I had never, ever considered before blew my mind.<laugh> like, yeah. What do you, what do you mean? You don't think of words as words like that just blows my mind. Um, and so I was always, uh, into Scrabble scrabbles, one of my favorite games, but nobody ever wants to play with me because I'm that annoying person who knows the two or three letter words. Right. Cause I played competitive scrap<laugh> so nobody ever wants to play with me anymore because they're like, it's not fair. Like it's these words exist. I have a dictionary. Do you wanna see them? Like I have like official dictionary, like nobody wants to play with me anymore. But, um, I was just very into this idea of writing a book set at a Scrabble tournament, but for a very long time, and this was the idea that I had right after I had submitted my first novel. So you know how people are like, oh, you shouldn't focus too much on what's happening with that, that book. You should start on something else so that you can focus your attention, your energy somewhere else. Right. Not worry so much about what's happening with the first book. Um, and so this was the, the idea that I had right after. Um, so this is the second novel that I started working on. But the, while the premise was solid to me, like I knew that I had something there, the shape of the story refused to reveal itself to me.<laugh> mm-hmm<affirmative> um, and so when I first started writing it, I was like, ah, that something is not working like something here isn't right. Like it just doesn't feel right. Um, and so queen of the tiles before it ever got sub to my publisher queen of the tiles, I think I wrote about six different drafts. So it was a very different experience for me because the first book that I wrote, uh, which became my debut novel, that sort of came to me fully formed. I knew when I started writing it, how it was going to go. Um, and so the writing of it was very quick, even though I was writing in these like small patches of time that I could steal between like taking care of kids. It was very quick because in my head I knew, oh, this is what happens. This is what happens. This is what happens. Mm-hmm<affirmative> but queen of the tiles wasn't like that. Um, because first of all, writing a mystery is really, really, really difficult.
Speaker 1:Right. I know I'm terrified of the idea of
Speaker 2:Writing. It's so difficult,<laugh> it is so difficult. Um, and I just couldn't get the hang of it. And I think it's proof that sometimes you can have a good idea that you are not ready for it yet. Mm-hmm,<affirmative> like, you're not ready to tackle yet as an author. Like you need to grow more in your skills before you can really take it on and do the idea justice. Yeah. Um, and so in between all these like many drafts and half drafts, I, I was writing other things, you know, just to try and try and make sure that I wasn't stuck in this a bits of frustration that I couldn't get the hang of this story.<laugh> I was like, um, I should, I should work on other things, you know, I should, I should think about other ideas and stuff. And so there would be times when I left it alone and I started, you know, drafting my first middle grade book and things like that. So when I finally got back to it and figured out, this is what I wanted to do with it, it was such a huge relief<laugh>
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It was a sense of relief that, that this idea had legs, you know, it had potential, like it wasn't just something that I, that existed in my head. Like there was something that I could do with this story, um, and that I just needed to work at it a little more mm-hmm<affirmative> and grow in myself as an author, I think, and grow in my confidence as an author a little more. Um, and so what I took from that was that some stories just take their time to reveal themselves to you. Um, and that's okay. Like, it's it that some stories need time and space and room to breathe before you figure out exactly how they're going to go. Um, and it's okay. Not to know what you're doing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I think that's wonderful for people to know. Um, and I think it's important to know that like you can set something aside for a while. It doesn't mean you're giving up on it. It doesn't mean you can't ever come back to it. Um, but I think your point of having to grow as a writer, like for me, I think of, um, my fourth book winter was like this huge, big unwieldy Fifi with like a gazillion characters and points of view and different settings and like overlapping sub plots. And it's like, I could not have written that as my, I couldn't have done it. Exactly. You know, you do have to kinda, uh, learn the skills and develop the craft as you go. It's totally, it's legit.<laugh>
Speaker 2:Exactly. And I think, I think too often we get in our heads about how we're not able to write the exact thing that we have in our head. Mm-hmm<affirmative> like, we, it's just, it's not coming out the way we envisioned it. And too often we think of that as failure on our parts or something to beat ourselves up about. And sometimes I think it requires a step back and thinking, all right, how can I, how can I meet this challenge? You know, how, how do I need to grow into this idea? What, what do I, what is missing here and how do I supplement it? How do I get better? How do I get, how do I live up to this idea that I have in my head? Like what can I do to build up to it? Um, and that's hard, man, because writers are in their own heads all the time.<laugh>,
Speaker 1:It is hard. And it can be really difficult to kind of pinpoint your own weaknesses,
Speaker 2:Right? It's not a fun process to be like,
Speaker 1:What do you mean I'm not ready to write this.
Speaker 2:This is the way that you are actually not able to do this. And what can you do to be better at this? Like, it's, it's not fun telling yourself how much you suck. No,<laugh> like, that's what it feels like. Right? It feels like you're talking down to yourself, but the truth is that everybody has room to improve as a writer mm-hmm<affirmative> and some stories require you to step up a little more in areas that you might not have exercised before. Like these are muscles, different muscles that you're working when you tell different stories. And sometimes you haven't worked a certain muscle enough to be able to lift the weight of that story, to where it needs to be. That's pretty much all it is. All you have to do is work the muscle until you are able to carry the story<affirmative> as you see fit.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So someone listening to this is like, yeah, I can, I know you're right. I, I need to get better at plotting or I need to get better at building suspense or whatever it is that they feel like they're not quite there yet. What would you tell them to do? How do they actually do that?
Speaker 2:When it came? The, my thing about offering advice to writers is that I'm always worried that, um, it's going to be taken wholesale as like, you must do this and you must do that. So the caveat here is that this is what worked for me, um, when I was writing queen of the tiles. But basically what I found helped was first of all, working on something else, completely<laugh> in a different genre because in a different genre, in a different age group, just because I know myself, and I know that if I stare at a blank screen in frustration for too long, then I'm going to start thinking of myself as a failure. Um, and I can't do that. If I get into that kind of spiral, it's very hard for me to come back out. Um, and I wanted to hang onto the feeling of, yes, you do know what you're doing. You do know how to write, so it's not you, it's the thing that you're working on. Right? So that gave me some perspective because I was still able to write other things. I just had a stumbling block on this story. And the first that was the first thing for me was remembering that it wasn't me necessarily. Um, it wasn't that I was a horrible writer. It wasn't that I had forgotten how to do it. Uh, it was just that I hadn't gotten ahead handle on that particular story yet. I needed that sense of perspective and writing something else that I knew how to do<laugh> that I knew I could do well. Um, gave me that perspective. Mm-hmm<affirmative> right. That was the first thing I had to get over that stumbling block. First, the second thing was that I started reading mysteries as a writer mm-hmm<affirmative> and not just as a person who wanted to read mysteries, a genre that I really love. I grew up reading a lot of aha Christina novels because my sister was a huge fan and she had an entire shelf of them. And so they're still sort of comfort reads for me, um, which is weird when you're talking about books that largely involve murder and poison and all these terrible things. But I find a very comforting they're
Speaker 1:So cozy. They're,
Speaker 2:They're cozy people die, but they're cozy, but
Speaker 1:Everyone's always drinking. Like it's true.
Speaker 2:It's a very gen sort of like death. Um
Speaker 1:<laugh>
Speaker 2:So I started reading mysteries with an author's eye instead of just as a reader, because I started reading them and thinking really critically about what was working and what wasn't and how they did that. It's a little bit like studying magicians to see how they do their tricks. Mm-hmm<affirmative> um, it was kind of like that. I read so many mysteries. I went back to the old Agathe Christies, but I read new mysteries. I read ye mysteries. I read, um, Courtney summers and Karen McManus and Tiffany D. Jackson and all these incredible authors. And I read them with a view of understanding what they were doing. Mm. I was trying to understand what they were doing and how they were doing it. Um, and that was very, very helpful for me. I know some people, when they're working on certain things, don't like to read widely in they're in that same genre, because they're worried it'll bleed into what they're writing, but for me, I find it very helpful, at least before I start drafting the book to get into that mindset, um, of, of the genre that I'm writing in.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Uh,
Speaker 2:So reading mysteries widely before I, you know, got back into the world of queen of the tiles really, really helped me figure out what kind of story I was looking for. Um, and I think that that was probably the single most. And, and, and I didn't just limit it to reading either. I just consumed as much mystery as I could. Like I watched mysteries and I, you know, I listened to true crime podcasts. I did all sorts of things. I just sort of immersed myself in mysteries and started to think about what makes a mystery compelling to me and like, why, how, how this works. Like what kind of reveals, um, are the authors play? Where are they placing those reveals? What kind of clues are they placing and how are they doing it? And all sorts of things like that just really immersing myself industry. Um, and then afterwards I felt so much more capable of handling the shape of the story and trying to wrangle it into a shape that felt like mine, like story.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, no. And I love that you point out that there is a difference between reading something purely for pleasure versus reading it, trying to figure out how it was done. Like you, you really have to kind of turn on that right. Or brain. Um,
Speaker 2:It's a really different frame of mind that you approach a book with. If you're, if you're doing it purely for like, oh, I'm gonna switch off any sort of thinking, just let myself be carried along with the story, you know, be fully immersed in and enjoy it versus really thinking, okay, how are they doing this? Like, watch this, turn a phrase here. This is really nice. Like this reveal was really cleverly done. And then going back and thinking, how did they set that up? Like how much foreshadowing had to happen? When did it happen? How did they, like, how much did they reveal? How much did they hold back? Like all of that is super, super interesting, but it's a very, very different way of reading a book. Um,<laugh> yeah, it's a lot more involved in some ways, because you're so engaged with a completely different like skillset there
Speaker 1:<laugh>. Yeah, no, you're really turning on a different part of your brain. Um, mm-hmm,<affirmative> when you're thinking about it, one thing that I think is really interesting, um, about queen of the tiles, and I haven't read a ton of mystery, but this definitely seems to kind of, um, differentiate it is that, um, the murder that Noua is trying to solve happened a year ago.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:So it's, it's a cold case. It's not like we don't have a body that we can inspect. We don't have Nope Clues in like littered around this hotel or this place where this Scrabble competition is happening. Like mm-hmm,<affirmative>, I feel like that in itself, would've added a lot of layers of like different challenges.
Speaker 2:Yeah. There is, uh, there is a particular, uh, AGA cracy book that this is BA that this idea it came from, which I can't remember the title of right now, unfortunately, but it's essentially this it's reconstructing a murder that happened many, many, many years ago. Mm. Like many, many, many years ago that at the time was brushed off as, uh, an accident, uh, an accidental death. Um, but with new evidence come to light, you know, they've believe that it's actually a murder. And so it's reconstructing the scene based on people's memories and it had this whole element to it about who remembers what, like what's important for people to remember, because we only remember the things that strike a court in us. Yeah. We're not necessarily remembering everything as it happens, you know, all, and so I thought that was really, really interesting because the fallibility of memory is something that I, I, this sounds so nerdy, but like,<laugh>, it's something that's really fascinating to me like that the idea of memories and what each of us holds dear and therefore what, what we give importance to in our memories. Right. Yeah. Um, is something that I find really, really interesting. And so when I was thinking about a murder mystery, I was thinking in terms of, well, what, how can we weave in this unreliability of memory, um, into the murder mystery as well? Cause I thought that was fun.<laugh> yeah. Yeah. But, but, um, mystery is tricky in so many ways because there are so many layers that you have to think in, um, because you have to think about the mystery and you know, what you're doing, lay the clues and the groundwork for the big reveals and things like that. But a story doesn't, I think, resonate with a reader, unless you hit a certain emotional chord. And so you have to make your characters, or at least for me, I, I, I try and make my characters as relatable and human and, and struggling.<laugh> Uhhuh<affirmative> as possible. Um, I try to make life difficult for them, uh, but I want to hit certain emotional beats in the reader as well. And so there's all these layers that had to come into play with queen of the tiles, because it was thinking in terms of not just this cast of characters and the relationships between them and the secrets they're hiding from each other and these memories that they're excavating and how it affects them. But that also has to play into the greater mystery at large. We, you still have to engage a reader in. And so mystery in conclusion is very, very difficult. And I'm not sure I wanna do it again.<laugh>
Speaker 1:I was gonna ask you, like, what is, what is the, the biggest thing that you feel like you learned about how to craft a mystery? And I feel like the answer to that is like, just don't do it answer now. We're gonna do it again. The
Speaker 2:Answer is if I attempt a mystery again, I'm taking a long break from it. That's the answer<laugh> it is, it is really, really difficult. Um, and it's, it's very rewarding when you figure out in, in your, your brain suddenly snaps to something in your so reflect, oh, that's how it goes.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I get it. That's live for that moment.
Speaker 2:Right. And it's really rewarding in a way that for mystery has, has not, um, it's, it's a different kind of high than any other story that I've told because the other stories that I felt their, you know, their fantasy and their horror and their, um, historical fix and yeah. There's an element of that. But in mystery, in particular
Speaker 1:<laugh> yeah.
Speaker 2:When you figure out how a clue goes from beginning to end, that feels like a huge accomplishment
Speaker 1:<laugh> I can totally see that.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So I'm really curious. Cause you mentioned that you had like six different drafts of this book. Yes. Did the, did the solution, the, the who done it aspect? Did it change from draft to draft? Yes. Yes.
Speaker 2:Yes. Um,
Speaker 1:Did the death change
Speaker 2:The death? You know, that, that beginning scene, that prologue that has never changed.
Speaker 1:I am so fascinated by that. That was so when you were gonna say that, cause I love it when it's like there's so many Prolog is you can take this,
Speaker 2:Right. The Prolog has never changed. The last line of the prologue is still one of the, my favorite
Speaker 1:<laugh> I
Speaker 2:Love, love that moment. Absolutely. And he became absolutely character. It's like, it's, it's my, it's still one of my favorite moments in the book that last line, because it is so telling of his character as a person. Um, and it immediately sets a tone. I think of like, this could go a million different ways, which is, which is fun. Um, but it's less fun when you're the author and you realize, oh no, this could go a million different ways. And I dunno which way it's going.<laugh> what have I done? What have I done? I drafted it. And I was like, oh, so please in myself. Cause when I read it, I was like, oh, as a reader, you could be like, oh my God, what's going to happen. Like, I've let them so many, like there are so many different ways that could, and then I was like, oh no, I have given myself.<laugh> a problem.<laugh> um, so yeah, in, in, in earlier drafts, there are, there are, yeah, there are definitely different endings. Um, and in fact, even in this draft, once I knew who it was like, once I knew who the culprit was there, like at least three different endings, because I was like, I don't know how to bring it to its, to the conclusion that it's supposed to have. Yeah. Like I, I knew what I wanted and I didn't know how to get there. And it took me rewriting the ending like three different times to figure out what I wanted. Um, and so this book was interesting for me. It, I mean, frustrating, yes. Painful many, many times. Um, but also just a really interesting learning process in the fact that it was such an excavation. I feel like it wasn't, it wasn't like the weight of our sky was so linear for me. Like it was so easy to right. Because the story had lived in me for so long and, and the form of it was so easy. Like it felt easy even though the subject matter was very difficult to write, but this went, this one was an excavation process and every step of the way it was an excavation, it wasn't just like, I need to excavate this part in the beginning and then everything will be easy. No, it just re step of it required some sort of digging and exploring and really figuring things out. Yeah. Um, and maybe that's the, that maybe that's mystery in general. Maybe that is my process for this particular book. Cuz if there's anything I've learned that every book has a slightly different process that you kind of have to, that you as the author kind of have to adapt to and figure out on your own. Um, it's, it's like every book feels like such a personal process, uh, and that you have to, you have to sort of adapt to it all. Um, but this one, this one I feel like really stretched my skills. Um, and obviously I am not the person who decides whether I was successful in doing that or not, but I am very proud of how it turned out and I'm very proud of how I turned out<laugh> at the end of it. You know what I mean? Like there, there was so much that was learned in the process of writing this
Speaker 1:Book and
Speaker 2:Um, whether it was successful or not, it's up to the reader ultimately of course, but it was a success to me in that I feel like I grew a lot from it.
Speaker 1:Sure. No. And I, I think it is interesting because every book is of course its own challenge. Like every book is gonna have different things that you have to figure out that like, oh, this I did this before and it's not working. I need to try something different. Um, I have not myself written a murder mystery, but I've read enough that I'm just like in awe of, of how writers you walk such a fine line between real clues versus distraction versus the red herrings, you know, the different characters who all have to have a different motivation, you know, how you parse out just the right details and the, just the right time. I mean, it is a complicated beast of a genre.<laugh>, I'm so amazed
Speaker 2:<laugh> it really is. Which is why when you were like, what was the lesson you learned? Like not to do it again. So.
Speaker 1:Okay. Well on that note I have one last question. Um, before we go into our bonus round, um, and kind of taking a, a side step here because I have only written ye um, only written young adult, but I have an idea that I keep going back and forth, which like it came to me as a middle grade. Right. But I keep going, but like I've never written middle grade. Maybe I should try to write it as a ye and I like, I keep going back and forth. So for you, when an idea comes to you, how do you decide this is Y a or this is middle grade.
Speaker 2:That's interesting because when I first had the idea for queen of the tiles, I was imagining it as a cute C middle grade book set at a Scrabble tournament.
Speaker 1:Interesting.
Speaker 2:Um, and then later as the idea kept turning and turning around in my head, uh, was when I was like, no, maybe this feels more like AYA, what if I made it a murder mystery? Um, and, and that kind of stuff. So I, I see where you're coming from these days though. Um, ideas tend to come to me more readily revealing themselves as who they're for mm-hmm<affirmative>. Um, and so I tend to think in, in middle grade mode or ye mode<laugh> right. Um, and I, this is one of those questions where you ask how something is done and a person is like, I, I feel
Speaker 1:<laugh> like, you
Speaker 2:Do know what I mean? Like it's just one of those things, intuition, like it just feels right. Um, part of it, I think is the, the, the ideas themselves. I know when they lend themselves to a younger audience versus an older audience. So I knew when I, for example, I have a middle grade coming up next year, which is a little red writing hood retelling. Um, but set in Malaysia. Yeah. It's set in Malaysia. So the little red writing hood is actually a little girl in a red hijab and the Wolf, the big bat Wolf is actually a wear tiger, which is a creature of, uh, Malaysian mythology. And so, and so things sort of come to me in that way. Like when I thought little red writing hood, I thought, well, no, that's not, that's not, uh, a Y a book for me that that feels middle grade to me because of the way I want to tell the story. Mm-hmm,<affirmative>, um, the shape of it as the way it presents itself. To me, that feels middle grade to me. And so it's really hard for me to be able to say like with any great certainty, how I determine what stories belong, where, because they sort of come to me already with a feel yeah.
Speaker 1:<laugh> yeah.
Speaker 2:Or, or I'm thinking about it already, you know, cuz I'm like, oh my option clause is coming up. I need to think of an idea for this. Um, and so I I'm already in the mode of, oh, I have to think of a ye idea. Mm-hmm<affirmative> uh, and so when ideas come it's like, okay, this is for that purpose. Yeah. Um, I'm already sort of in that mode. Um, yeah. So that's why I'm like, I have no idea<laugh>, you
Speaker 1:Know, but I think that's fair though. And I think, um, like this, this idea that I've had, it came to me as middle grade and it was only like, like far into the planning process. When I think I just started to kind of like doubt myself and like, you know, but you're not a middle grade writer, Marisa, what do you
Speaker 2:Do do
Speaker 1:This off?
Speaker 2:It's it's really actually comforting to hear established authors and successful authors like yourself say things like I started to doubt myself. I'm like, huh, it's one of those, like, you know, people magazine and they have that like stars they're just like us. And it was like, Its like, oh, she's just like me. She doubts herself too. Not that I wish that on. You do
Speaker 1:So much. When does that go away?<laugh> I
Speaker 2:Dunno. I will say that as a person who writes across two categories and just sort of like, as we discussed this earlier where you don't like live in ourselves to certain genres and stuff, we're just sort of like, ah, I feel like writing this, so I'm gonna write it. Mm-hmm<affirmative> um, part of coming in as clueless as I was, um, and not having a template and not really knowing what I was doing. Um, not knowing how my favorite authors had established their careers and things like that. Part of that was having the sort of fearlessness think that comes with not knowing. Yeah. Um, the sort of, I'm just gonna throw something at the wall and see what stakes, like<laugh> that sort of attitude, which tends to get rubbed off at the corners. I think the longer you go through the publishing process, um, when all these other voices start coming in and it starts getting a lot noisier in here and it's not just you throwing things, the wall and seeing things with stakes, um, I think hanging onto that is what has helped me just sort of move into whatever genre I want and write whatever I want. Yeah. Because as far as I'm concerned, I have nothing to lose. Um,<laugh> I am a random person sitting here in the morning on the other side of the world. I'm not based in the us. I have never met my editors or my agent in person. Um, I'm part of the community now, but I, I, again, I've never met anybody for all, all of, you know, this was just a giant host
Speaker 1:<laugh>
Speaker 2:And I don't really exist. Right. It's gonna be like the big reveal at the end of Scooby do.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:I would've gotten away with it if it weren't for you Medling kids. Um, but I think it does give you a sort of ability to just let, go and write whatever it is that you want to write. Mm-hmm
Speaker 1:<affirmative>
Speaker 2:And I think that's harder once you you've, um, you're establi as successful as you are. And so I think your doubts are valid, but I, I do also think that you do yourself a disservice thinking you can't do this
Speaker 1:<laugh> oh, thank you.
Speaker 2:You only write ye and stuff like that. Who, who says, who says Marisa, who is telling you that that's
Speaker 1:Nobody that's it's in your do it.
Speaker 2:It's in look how this podcast has turned. Like, are you interviewing me? Am I interviewing you?
Speaker 1:No, I feel I just got a wonderful pep talk<laugh>
Speaker 2:No, but I do. I just, I just think we, we do ourselves a disservice when we decide that we belong in certain boxes and categories and we're not allowed to do other things.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah, no. And there is, there is fear that come comes along with, um, you know, once you have have some books under your, your belt, you know, you want the readers to stick with you, you wanna give you want, you know, and, and
Speaker 2:That honestly, part of the reason really think I mentioned this in the beginning, but there is a lot of fear in releasing something like queen of the tiles because, and, and the fear has an additional edge. Cause um, I feel like, uh, authors of color are often expected to write in certain lanes, um, that are comfortable for readers and especially readers who aren't readers of color. Um, and it's easy to accept us when we're in those lanes. And so the weight of our sky was historical fiction. And so it, it is in a very, uh, it's in a well worn lean for, for authors of color. Right. Mm-hmm<affirmative> because, um, to some people that's like, oh, it serves a purpose of being educational or, you know, teaching you something about the world. Like I am a PSA, right. Or I like for middle grade, my stories are based in, you know, folklore and mythology and magic. And like that's also an acceptable lane, right? Because, oh, this is a magic based in culture like this
Speaker 1:Again, you're kind of
Speaker 2:Educating again, you're sort of educating some opening, a whole new world. This is a murder mystery. I'm not educating you about anything. Except some Scrabble works
Speaker 1:Except Scrabble, except so much about SCR,
Speaker 2:But it's not, it's not anything that's based in culture or, you know, that's based in geography, it's a murder mystery that happens to have, uh, um, a protagonist who wears a hijab and who that happens to be set in Malaysia. But otherwise it could be anywhere mm-hmm<affirmative> right. And so there is a certain anxiety there because I'm, I'm switching lanes and it's not a lane that You would expect me to take based on my previous work, I think, um, and it's a lane that's historically difficult to break into if you don't look a certain way. Um, and so it is there there's a certain measure of anxiety there and feel it there. Um, no,
Speaker 1:That's really interesting. I mean, I'm all for, you know, pushing against those expectations and even like for readers, it's good to be pushed outside your comfort zone. Why not? I think so.
Speaker 2:<laugh> I think so, but um, basically like anytime I hear a voice in my head, that's like, should you be doing this? If I step by, I can think who's the one doing the asking, because if it's not an external person doing the asking and it's just me, then why am I limiting myself? Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Um, but also if somebody external is doing the asking, then you really gotta think about what kind of system you're publishing.
Speaker 1:Interesting. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So yeah, there's, there's two ways to approach that kind of self doubt,
Speaker 1:I think. Yeah. But ultimately I think we, we both vote for following your passions and writing the story that you wanna write.
Speaker 2:Exactly. Yeah. Because why should we, or anybody else stop this?
Speaker 1:I agree wholeheartedly. Oh my gosh. I'm so inspir. I'm gonna go, right. So you
Speaker 2:Should be writing the middle grade is what I'm saying. Yeah.
Speaker 1:<laugh> I mean, I have been, it's not like I let get
Speaker 2:To work Mari,
Speaker 1:But I just keep thinking, but what will people think anyway? Okay, awesome. Are you ready for our bonus round?
Speaker 2:If I say no. Does that stop?
Speaker 1:It Doesn't
Speaker 2:Tell anyway, I can't say stop it. All right. Let's
Speaker 1:Go cake or pie,
Speaker 2:Cake
Speaker 1:Music or silence
Speaker 2:Music. But without words, because otherwise I will find myself singing along and then accidentally typing, like the words that I'm singing while I'm writing.
Speaker 1:I do that happens
Speaker 2:All the time.<laugh>
Speaker 1:Laughter or pants.
Speaker 2:Oh my God. Plotter
Speaker 1:Scrabble or clappers.
Speaker 2:Oh, Scrabble. You're gonna have to explain what clappers is
Speaker 1:To me. I know. I have never heard of clappers. That was you explain what it is.
Speaker 2:Yes I do. So you should pick up the book so you should know what clappers is and what
Speaker 1:This question is, right. That's right. Go read it. And you, can you learn a whole new way of playing Scrabble, detective or documentary maker?
Speaker 2:Probably documentary maker. I think I'd be a hopeless detective, to be honest. I think I'd be really bad at it. Like I would miss so many clues like that were right under my nose. Just be like, huh, that's nice. And move on. How did
Speaker 1:I not see that?
Speaker 2:And then later I'd be like, oh right. That was probably important. Huh?
Speaker 1:That's pretty much me reading every mystery note.<laugh>
Speaker 2:Like, I think, I think as an author, you're probably already pretty well set up to be a document DreamMaker.
Speaker 1:<laugh> what is the best writing advice you have ever received?
Speaker 2:<laugh> um, the best writing advice I ever received is actually from a Stephen King book called on writing, which is one of my favorite, um, books about craft slash memoir. Um, and which is funny to me because I don't really read much Stephen King otherwise, but I
Speaker 1:Think on writing might be the on Stephen King book that I've ever
Speaker 2:Read. But I find on writing so compelling. Like I'll go back and read it over and over again. And I remember, um, one thing in particular from on writing where he says, you write with the door closed and you edit with the door open. Mm. Um, and I think that's really important because I, I'm not sure many writers think of the editing process as part of the writing process. Um, but it is<laugh> and writing with the door closed means, you know, shutting out all the noise and, and really to telling the story is you want to tell it, but editing with the door open means that you have to be open to other people's opinions and ideas, or at least that's how I take it. Um, and learning how to be edited is I think a really important skill for a writer.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Um, learning how to be edited, learning what edited, what did it, what edits make sense to you and what you should reject and what you can like just the idea that you can reject and edit from your editor is I think something that I had to really work to overcome because mm-hmm,<affirmative> in the beginning, I was like, I have to take every edit. I have to be the author that complies, you know, like that follows instructions and, and takes it and works in it. And, and at the end of the day, your story is still your story and the edits that you accept, uh, you can also reject, you know what I mean? Yeah. And I, I think it took me a while to figure that out, like at the end of the day, the story is still your own, but you do have to be open to critique and, and to be open to editing and re recognize which edits make the story better and stronger, and which don't serve the story that you want to tell. Um, and so I always, always think of, of Stephen K, you know, right. With the door closed, edit with the door open. I think that's a really good way to think about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, that's excellent advice. What book makes you happy?
Speaker 2:Wow. Um, this is a rough one because I write, I like to read books that cause me pain. Um, I'm trying to think of the last happy book that I read. I'm like, wow, you don't read
Speaker 1:It. Doesn't have to be a happy book.<laugh> I mean, if it brings you joy<laugh>
Speaker 2:It sounds so terrible. Cause I'm like, wow, all the books I read are like horror and mystery and thriller and murder. It's kinda like, wow, you, you need help.<laugh> um, I really love my friend, Margaret Owens, um, little thieves.
Speaker 1:I am listening to it on audiobook right now. It's amazing.
Speaker 2:I, I love little thieves and I'm good enough friends with, with Margaret that get to read her stuff, um, before the rest of the world at large. And so I just received, um,<laugh> an early draft of the sequel to little girls painted devils, and I've been getting stuck into that in between drafting. And it's bringing me a lot of joy, uh, being back in this world with these characters, which are so cool, compelling, um, in the way that only Molly can make her characters. And it's just making me really happy, being able to dip into that and, and go back to that world, which feels like so familiar to me now. Um, and like it's such a nice break in between writing my own projects and my own terrible children. Well children, both children, I'm not talking about my real children. My real
Speaker 1:Children are not terrible.
Speaker 2:I just realized how that came out. And I was like, no, I meant, I meant the characters in my stories that are not behaving themselves. My children are perfect angels. Um<laugh> but yes, uh, it's giving me a lot of joy going back to the world of little thieves. And just also, I'm kind of SMU about the fact that I get to read these things before other people. So, you know, maybe I'm showing off a little bit, but you know,
Speaker 1:I know that feeling. Um, I always feel so lucky to get early copies of things.
Speaker 2:I know. Isn't it great. Isn't it great. I love it. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I actually just met Margaret Owen this last weekend. That's
Speaker 2:Right. She did tell me that you guys were at an event together. How was
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, she was delightful. Oh my gosh. So much fun.
Speaker 2:<laugh> yes. She's
Speaker 1:<laugh> all right. Let's see. What are you working on next?
Speaker 2:Oh my God. You just brought up like this, this flash of, you know, pain. Uh, I have, uh, no, no, no. I have,
Speaker 1:I'm really excited to answer. I have question.
Speaker 2:I have three books to draft this year, which is very stressful. Um, but no, what I have coming up next besides queen tiles, which comes out next week, um, is I am the co-editor along with Margaret Owen of a young adult, uh, anthology murder mystery called the grim of gray faiths, which is set at a magic school. It's a murder mystery set at a magic school and each, um, chapter or each short is written from the point of view of a different, um, of a D character. And they're all by these incredible diverse group of authors. Um, and so that was really fun to put together, but also it, it did mean that I was writing two different murder mysteries at once, which was very stressful. Um<laugh> and then, uh, I also have my middle grade coming up in March a 23. Um, and that is called the Tiger's tale. And that is the, uh, little red writing hood reimagining that I mentioned earlier in the podcast. So that's the two things that I have coming out in 2023 that I can talk about
Speaker 1:<laugh> well, they both amazing the idea of trying to edit an anthology around us. Single murder mystery sounds like such an enormous headache.
Speaker 2:It is an enormous headache. Um, and they're all interconnected chapters. And so think about having to plot a murder mystery, but getting different authors, the different clues that they need to work into their short. Oh, oh
Speaker 1:My gosh. So fascinating.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was, it was a says, um, and it's something that Margaret and I really had to work on and cause again, we never, this is our first anthology. Like<laugh>, I've never edited. Like, I don't know how many times in this podcast I've said, I have never done this thing before. And I, I just went ahead and did it like, like I love it. Yeah. There's there's no plan or rhyme or reason to any of the things that I do. I just kind of like, this is a cool idea and we're going to make it happen. Um<laugh> and so I just kind of throw myself into projects and then suffer the consequences as I'm doing.
Speaker 1:All right. Lastly, where can people find you?
Speaker 2:You can find me on Twitter at Hannah UFF, uh, on Instagram HNA dot UFF and on my website@huff.com.
Speaker 1:Awesome. Hannah, thank you so much for joining me.
Speaker 2:Thank you for having me. This has been a really fun conversation.
Speaker 1:It has been very fun. I've enjoyed it too. Readers, definitely check out queen of the tiles. It comes out next week, April 19th. It is of course available for pre-order. Of course, we encourage you to support your local independent bookstore, but if you don't have one, you can check out our affiliate store at bookshop.org/shop/marisa Meyer. Next week, I will be chatting with JC Cervan about her magical contemporary romance flirting with fate. If you're enjoying these conversations, please subscribe and follow us on Instagram at Marissa Meyer author and at happy writer podcast until next time stay healthy, stay cozy and whatever life throws at you today. I hope that now you're feeling a little bit happier.
