The Happy Writer with Marissa Meyer
Determining Your Story's "Pinch Points" with J.C. Cervantes - Flirting with Fate
Marissa chats with J.C. Cervantes about her YA contemporary romance - FLIRTING WITH FATE - as well as coming up with five "pinch points" in your story to build suspense and challenge your protagonist; surprising your readers by always looking for places to turn the story on its head, and how sometimes you just need a little more thinking time to let the story unfold; why main characters are so much harder to write than secondary characters; the strange overlap between writers and runners, and how it's super important to treat ourselves and our bodies well; and mining your own experiences to write dynamic family relationships. (No siblings? No worries! Try consuming books and media with the sorts of relationships you're aiming for.)
Purchasing your books through our webstore at Bookshop.org supports independent bookstores.
Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.
Find out more and follow The Happy Writer on social media: https://www.marissameyer.com/podcast/
Marissa chats with J.C. Cervantes about her YA contemporary romance - FLIRTING WITH FATE - as well as coming up with five "pinch points" in your story to build suspense and challenge your protagonist; surprising your readers by always looking for places to turn the story on its head, and how sometimes you just need a little more thinking time to let the story unfold; why main characters are so much harder to write than secondary characters; the strange overlap between writers and runners, and how it's super important to treat ourselves and our bodies well; and mining your own experiences to write dynamic family relationships. (No siblings? No worries! Try consuming books and media with the sorts of relationships you're aiming for.)
Purchasing your books through our webstore at Bookshop.org supports independent bookstores.
Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.
Find out more and follow The Happy Writer on social media: https://www.marissameyer.com/podcast/
Hello, and welcome to the happy writer. This is a podcast at aims to bring readers, more books, to enjoy and to help authors find more joy in their writing. I am your host, Marissa Meyer. Thank you for joining. I talked last week about how I was still waiting for my copy edits and I was quite pleased to still be waiting for my copy edits. Uh, well, they have arrived. They actually just came in this morning. So I've been working on them for the last few hours. I have a little bit of copy edit brain. Like my brain is kind of mu as it gets. Um, but I'm really happy cuz it's actually perfect timing to be jumping back into this project. Um, that's not, what's making me happy. The thing that's making me happy this week is that the girls, my girls are in their very first spring break camp at the Y M C a all week long. They are gone for eight hours every day. So it's like our first experience of being able to send them off for long periods of time and get like work done without having to balance homeschooling and feeding them and like all of the things that we've been doing. And so it's a great time to be getting back into the world of cursed and I'm really, really happy. And so glad that so far, the girls seem to be really enjoying it and making some friends and getting lots of exercise and activities in. So it is a win win for everybody. I am. Of course also so happy to be talking to today's guest. She is a New York times bestselling and award-winning author of many books for children and young adults, including tortilla's son and the storm runner series, her new contemporary ya romance flirting with fate comes out to on April 19th, please. Welcome JC Cervan.
Speaker 2:Hi Marisa.
Speaker 1:Hello. How are you doing?
Speaker 2:I'm doing great. Thanks so much for having me. I'm so excited. I've been so excited to talk to you. So thank you.
Speaker 1:Oh, it was my pleasure. I, as I mentioned before, we started the recording. I love this book. I thought it was so adorable and I'm really excited for it to come out tomorrow and for everyone to go and pick up their copy. If you need a really sweet spoony romance, this is your ticket. It's so good.
Speaker 2:Aw, thank you. Thank you. And I also want to, I was listening to your podcast, I think a couple of weeks ago. And you were celebrating a two year anniversary. I think so. Congratulations. Well, thank,
Speaker 1:Thank you. Um, right, so first of all, should I call you JC or should I call you Jen?
Speaker 2:You can call me Jen.
Speaker 1:Jen. Okay, awesome. So Jen, the first thing that I ask all of my guests, uh, is I would love to hear your author origin story. What brought you here?
Speaker 2:Oh wow. Well, so I always say that writing found me. I did not seek out being an author. I did not dream about being an author from the time I would as a child. Although I was a very voracious reader, I loved and devoured books and it didn't really matter if it was a book or a magazine or the back of my cereal box. I mean, I was just completely enchanted with words. And so it doesn't surprise me that this is the route that I took, even if it was by accident. So essentially what happened is I have three daughters and my youngest daughter came to me at the time and she was gonna be away at school and we just happened to be out of town, um, for about 60 days. So my kids were gonna be going to school in another city. And because of that, I didn't have my daily responsibilities distractions that I would typically have. And she asked to me to write her story and I put pen to paper and I know this sounds kind of hyperbolic, but it was like the heavens opened and the angels saying, and I just thought, oh my God, why have I not been doing this? And the interesting part Marisa is that I have a master's to through in English, although it's in rhetoric in an argument, but I realized I had never written fiction. I had absorbed it and I had a mind for story through that absorption, but I had never written it. And I just felt in love. I mean, it really felt like as spiritual kind of calling as, as crazy as that might sound and I knew never stopped afterward and I just kept going and that story actually bloomed into my first novel.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh. I love it. Can I ask how old you were?
Speaker 2:I was at the time. I think I was 35 ish.
Speaker 1:OK. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So what
Speaker 1:Had you been
Speaker 2:Well? So I ha was a stay-at-home mom for a long time. I, um, taught at the university. I taught rhetoric and grammar and then moved into some children's literature in Southwestern literature courses. And then I did some work in development where I actually served as executive director for the community foundation, which I loved that work as well. You know, I come from a small community and even the state of New Mexico is a small community. And so that really allowed me to kind of branch out and learn about people and get to know different personalities because as you know, we can become so isolated as writers. And oftentimes I will tell new budding young writers get out and live. You don't have to have the most exciting experiences. You don't have to travel the world, but just kind of getting out of your own head and into the world can be really beneficial. So that's what I had done professionally until writing came along and I actually left a full-time position when the storm runner came out.
Speaker 1:Nice.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, I, it makes perfect sense to me that, you know, you mentioned the, the feeling that it was like meant to be. Um, and, and I feel the same way. Like I was one of those kids that I knew that I wanted to be a writer from a young age, but for, for so many of us, no matter when you first have that feeling of, you know, rightness, like this is what I'm supposed to be doing. I think once you hit on that, you're, it just is, is very clear that this is what you were meant to do,
Speaker 2:Right? Yeah, no, I, I absolutely believe that. And you can feel it. I think as an artist, I was watching a documentary the other day, um, don't laugh, but<laugh>, it was the VII's documentary. So if you haven't had a chance to watch it on HBO, it's absolutely sensational. And someone actually talked about how, the words to the music as the lyricist that they were interviewing said that he didn't write anything, that the words came to him and threw him
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm<affirmative>
Speaker 2:And I thought that is how you feel as a writer.
Speaker 1:It really is. It's the weirdest thing. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I also love that. There's your story. Your origin story has kind of this vibe of like it was faded, which of course speaks really well to the book we're gonna be talking about today. It's so perfect.<laugh> so on that note, would you please tell listeners about your new novel flirting with fate?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I'll, I'll give you the pitch for it, but one of the things that is interesting about this particular book, speaking of this, uh, fate vibe that, that you mentioned is I was at actually gonna turn to a dark middle grade, and this was right about the time that COVID hit and we were all starting to be, you know, take it seriously. And so this is early, early 2020, and I just wanted to write something light mm-hmm
Speaker 1:<affirmative>
Speaker 2:Funny and kind of adorable and sweet and kind of that encapsulated my own thinking around a long view of fate. And so I had a conversation with my agent and she said, go for it. And so in many ways, Marisa, I feel like I wrote this book for myself and my heart because the world was burning down all around us. Um, so with that said, um, that those are the circumstances in which I wrote it, but flirting with fate is about seven, 18 year old Ava Granados, who comes from a mystical family where the women have this magical ability to pass blessings to their female descendants from their deathbeds. Um, Ava of course, misses this blessing only to find out from her grandmother's ghost, that it went to someone else, AKA, a very cute guy<laugh> and if she doesn't manage to get it back, her grandmother is going to spend eternity in purgatory memoryless and the family magical vanish. Um, and essentially the book is about loyalty, sisterly bonds, first love fate, and of course a twist of magic.
Speaker 1:Uh, and like I mentioned before, it is super, super cute. Um, and I think it's so interesting. You talk about how it was kind of like your COVID book. Um, and I relate to that a lot because ironically for me, my COVID book turned out to be like super dark, like easily, the, a darkest thing I've ever written, but as a reader, all I wanted were these kinds of books, flirting with fate and happy things, charming things, romantic things. And I think it's funny that, um, readers and writers, like you just crave different things at different times.
Speaker 2:Well, and it's so interesting that your psyche was craving that because I, I think most writers, we turn to the thing that we want and need and are compelled to create. Right. Mm-hmm<affirmative> and, and so it's interesting that that's, that's where you were turning to. And I it's, so, you know, I've talked to so many author friends and everyone kind of took a different path to, to their creativity.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, no, I think it's, it's good to kind of follow those instincts and, you know, there's been a lot of times in my career where I start down on a project that for whatever reason, it turns out this is not the right time for this project. Mm-hmm,<affirmative>, it's not good for me at this moment in time. And, uh, it's taken a while, but I've, I've gotten better at listening to this when they crop up and it's always for the better.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're absolutely right.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Um, so one thing as I was reading this book, um, I thought of a conversation that I had on a few episodes ago. Um, I had Erin and tried Kelly on to talk about her middle grade. And while we were talking, one of the things that we kind of dove into was how with contemporary fiction, like there's, there's no explosions, there's no evil villain, you know, trying to take over the world. And I think that for some people, for some writers, it can be difficult to figure out, well, how do I keep the plot move? And how do I keep, um, you know, generate enough, uh, suspense that we're gonna pull the readers through the story without all those big flashy things. And after I finish that conversation with her, I read your book and it does it so well. Um, so that's the first thing I wanna talk to you about is just kind of like plotting and how do you come up with a story in a way that's gonna keep readers really excited, even though there's no magic, there's no explosions, there's no battle scenes.<laugh>,
Speaker 2:That's such a great question. And I appreciate you saying that because I, I work really hard toward that, but I would say that, you know, initially my process is to plot it out. I, and sometimes that is a visualization. So I will get out of poster board with a bunch of sticky notes and kind of like outline five pinch points. And then that's it because I wanna leave room for discovery as I'm writing other times, I will actually type out an outline. Other times it's long hand on a legal pad. It just, every story calls for a different process. But I think in this one, I really wanted to lean into the mysticism of this family of my own culture. And I wanted to lean into the power of women and their descendants. I wanted to lean into this long view of fate. And what does that really mean when someone makes a decision 50 years ago, and now you, for example, Marisa could actually trace that back to wow. If they hadn't made that decision, I wouldn't be X, Y, and Z, and we all have those stories. And to me that felt compelling. Um, and so I just kind of went with it and, but you're absolutely right, you know, coming off of the storm on series and I'm, I'm working on something else right now. And it, it's kind of, it's fun to be in those series because you get to play with B and monsters and high fantasy magic and, you know, magical gateways and, you know, monstrous villains and, and all of that. So I, you know, it was definitely a challenge.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm<affirmative>, uh, you mentioned that you come up with five pinch points. Mm-hmm<affirmative> what do you mean by pinch points?
Speaker 2:Um, moments of conflict, moments of tension moments where the protagonist comes to a crossroads and can go either way. And it says a lot about their character and oftentimes they go the wrong way. They make the wrong decision, or what we, as the logical readers might think is the wrong decision, because we can see higher story landscape that, that they cannot. And so that's typically what I like to have, you know, whatever that number ends up being. And again, I just fill in as I go and discover, because I wanna turn the page two to find out what happens mm-hmm
Speaker 1:<affirmative> there. So one of the things that I really loved about this book, and one thing that I think made it such a compelling read is that there's a couple of different mysteries. Um, you know, it's not like a murder mystery, but there's some questions left, open ended that you are very clever about the way that you kind of string the reader along, waiting to, to figure out what the answer is. Um, including a mystery, like we don't even realize that we are trying to solve one of these mysteries until like three quarters of the way through the book. And suddenly you're like, wait a minute.<laugh> things are starting to come together in a way that I did not anticipate.
Speaker 2:Right. Yeah. You know, and I, I would, I'll tell you, I think that every element of writing is a challenge. Mystery is so hard and I, I really admire those who can do it really, really well. Um, and so for me, again, it was because, you know, we don't wanna spoil it or give too much away, but I really wanted to turn the story on its head. And I remember many years ago going to a, uh, writer's conference, actually, a writer's retreat. And I can't remember who the visiting editor was. And she said, always look for places to the story on its head. Even if it seems like no way that's such a sharp departure from where I was going, just play it out. And so I, that's always kind of been whispering in the back of my mind, you know, am I turning the story on its head? Or am I just kind of taking this okay. This methodical plotting kind of, you know, wall through the story versus, you know, what else can I do here? But it also felt very natural to the story, um, that there would be that reveal. And so I'm glad that you think that it came off well, thank you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I loved it a lot. And I really like this, this kind of more general advice of turning the story on its head, um, which I think that we all want to do as writers, but it's easier said than done. Um, you know, there, it can be really easy to just kind of go along with the first thing that you think of and not really like dare yourself to, to pause and be like, but, but what else could I do? Um, and I always really admire writers who seem to just constantly surprise me as a reader.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Well, and it goes back to what you were saying earlier about that writerly instinct. And I think if we give ourselves a moment and we're not working on deadline breathless and panting<laugh>,
Speaker 1:Which we always are though, all
Speaker 2:I know, I feel like I'm always on deadline, but it's a blessing. Um, you know, I think we give ourselves a moment to step back and we allow those instincts to bubble up. We know, like I, I worked on a scene, um, it's the second book in a, um, ology that doesn't come up until next year. It's the Lord's of night, second book. And I, every, you know, my, my critique partners, PE other readers really enjoyed it. And I knew, I knew it wasn't its best and I'm not kidding. I worked on those two chapters and this is very unlike me because I plot ahead for at least two weeks and I couldn't figure out what was bothering me. And then it finally came. And so I think giving ourselves permission and time to just let it unfold is so important.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm<affirmative> no, I know that feeling well, that feeling that something isn't right. Um, and I know for me, like, there's been times when we get to page proofs, like the book is done, it's almost ready to go to the printer. And there's still that one chapter that is just niggling at you. And I've been like, okay, sorry, editor. I am rewriting this whole thing and you can't stop me. Like, I can't live with it like this.
Speaker 2:Good for you. Good for you. And, and that's standing up for the art form. Right. And we, we cannot control once we release that book into the minds and hearts of readers, we can't control how they're going to accept it or reject it. All we can do is write the best story we can. And that means doing what you do.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. No, it is a terrible feeling though, when you know that something's not right, but you just can't figure it out. You just can't pinpoint what it is. And you do sometimes, like you say, you have to sit with it, uh, for sometimes a couple of weeks and kind of look at it from different angles and play around with like, what if it was in a different point of view and, you know, maybe if we brainstorm some other things that could happen and like you have to kinda, um, pause and, and really dig deeper sometimes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, you're absolutely right.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Uh, what about writing stakes for the characters and the stakes over the course of the story? Um, because in, in, in flirting with fate, you know, we've got this character, Ava who missed getting her grandmother's deathbed blessing. And very soon after that, we learned like it was given accidentally to this really cute boy and she needs to try to get it back. And on one hand you could have just left it at that. Like, if you want the blessing, you're gonna go have to get to know the boy and get the blessing, but you didn't leave it at that. Like throughout the story, you kept upping the stakes for why she has to get the blessing back, which is another thing that I thought was done really well, that kind of a conscious thing, or to just kind of like build with the story.
Speaker 2:So you have to know that my favorite, favorite, favorite characterization is always the villain<laugh><inaudible>
Speaker 1:OK.
Speaker 2:When I'm about to say, I love to torment my characters. I do not. Um, I, it does not bother, I don't have a wounded heart over it. I think about what is the worst thing that could happen to them in this moment, because that gives rise to all of these emotions that are transcendent, regardless of our backgrounds and cultures and, you know, socioeconomic statuses and the experiences we've had on this planet as a human and the is those are the nuggets of gold, right? We've all experienced shame. We've all experienced fear and terror. We've all experienced, you know, X, Y, Z. And so that's what I'm always trying to get at, but I can't get there unless I throw my character into the bonfire.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm<affirmative>
Speaker 2:So that's what I to do.
Speaker 1:<laugh> um, because it's, cuz the things that are important, cause it would be so easy for her to walk away if it was just about her.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:But you never let it be just about her.
Speaker 2:Right. Well, and I mean, think about our own human experiences. Think about the times that you have really grown leaps and bounds are that's mentally, emotionally, spiritually, it's almost always coming out of a darker period of Bleaker period, a harder period, a more challenging period. I mean the that's when we grow. Right. And I think it's the same thing on the page is we want to see that character arc. We wanna see that character growth and if we never turn up the heat, then it just feels kind of flat to me.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah, no, that's a great point and something that I think, um, for me like what I'm writing, I feel like character arc tends to come secondary, um, to like the, the plot and the actual what happens in the story. But the longer I've been doing this podcast and the more I've talked about character arc and like how different authors think about character arc and turning up the heat, like you say, um, I've noticed that in my, my own writing, I've started to think so much more about character arc and like from the beginning of the process, which is, which is interesting. And I feel like I can feel that making for a much better writing experience. Mm-hmm<affirmative> when I'm kind of thinking about it from the beginning, as opposed to like, oh, I've written the book now I have to go in and like have the character evolved in the mouth.<laugh>
Speaker 2:Right. No. And it is, I mean, and again, you know, no process is the right way and every book is for me anyway, every book always turns out different, which is maddening.
Speaker 1:Totally. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Because I just wanna say, okay, I'm gonna sit down and I'm gonna get out my, you know, handy, dandy, legal pad and do it the same way I've done it every single time and please gimme formula. And it just never for me<laugh> um, and so I think that that's interesting that you do that, that, that has kind of, you know, spurred you on to make those own adjustments in your own writing or to at least test it out and try it out. And I think that, you know, character development is so squishy and it's so hard. Oh my God. I mean, I will live with a character on the page for a long time. I'll be on page 300 and then all of a sudden I'll say, I understand you. I, I get
Speaker 1:You. I have exact same way. It takes forever.<laugh>
Speaker 2:It really came to us, you know, just like ready to go. That would be so wonderful.
Speaker 1:I know. And I, I know that there are writers who like really get to know their characters before they start writing. And they mm-hmm,
Speaker 2:<affirmative> like,
Speaker 1:Wait until the character's voice is really clear and it it's so great. It works for them, but I don't have that sort of patience. I'm like, I here<laugh> but then I'm always like, but when do I get to know this character? Why it, why are they still so gray in my perspective of them?
Speaker 2:And they're so real, aren't they? I mean, they just, some of my characters will come to me with open arms and welcome me and some characters just don't wanna have anything to do with me. They don't want to be on the page and it's such a struggle. And it's so interesting. I'll talk to my family members who are not writers about these, you know, problems as a writer. And they look at me and they say, you know, your characters aren't real. Right. And I say, they are real during the process of my writing. So go away.<laugh>
Speaker 1:Right. I know nobody else get that's it, I've given up trying to talk to people about it, who aren't writers<laugh> I'm gonna go have a podcast episode and talk about all these things that no one else understands. That's right. Um, um, and I did, I wanted to cause back to kinda the idea of character arc. Um, one thing that didn't, I wasn't like thinking about consciously as I was reading it, but then when I was, um, preparing for our chat today, I had this thought and it's like, okay, the, the catalyst of this story is that Ava misses getting this blessing and I'm not gonna tell listeners like trying to figure out what the blessing is, is definitely one of like the big mysteries of the book. So I won't say what it is, but then by the end of the book, it's kind of like if she had gotten the blessing at the start of the book, boom, her character arc is done<laugh> but instead you like have to make her work for it, which I just thought was kind of brilliant.
Speaker 2:I know, but isn't that the universe so plan to right. I mean, we always have to work for everything. I mean, I, it almost feels like, you know, when you do get something that drops into your lap and the universe smiles on you, you know, you feel like this Getty little kid and you think, oh, yay. That's wonderful. But it doesn't happen that way all the time. So of course it shouldn't happen that way in fiction.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And really when that does, how much do you really appreciate it, right? Yeah. Yeah. As opposed to something you really had to work for
Speaker 2:Exactly. Right.
Speaker 1:Uh, did you know what Ava's blessing was from the beginning?
Speaker 2:No,<laugh>
Speaker 1:No. At what point in writing, did you, did it like, did you figure it out?
Speaker 2:I would say maybe when I was to the two thirds point, um, I really wanted it to feel natural. I wanted it to feel important enough, but not so out there that it was like, what, what does that have to do with anything mm-hmm. So I really, really wanted to give it a lot of thought and consideration and it had to kind of hit me in the heart, you know, it had to hit that right note where it felt like, yes, that's it, because I had played with some variations of that blessing and gift and they just never, none of them ever worked.
Speaker 1:Yeah. No. And that also makes sense, you know, for what you were saying before that it can take a long time to, uh, really get to know the characters and, and in this case, it's like, I, I'm assuming that you would've had to really have gotten to know Ava to really know what she needs. What does the blessing need to be for her?
Speaker 2:Right. And I, you know, I, I don't know if it's like this for you Marisa, but I struggle the most with my main characters. I feel like the secondary characters and they're just so much easier for me to write that main character is always the most challenging. And, you know, whenever I'm interviewed and people will ask, well, you know, who is the easiest character to write? And when I name someone else, O oftentimes they're surprised that it's not the main character, but how is it for you? Do you find the main character challenge?
Speaker 1:Always. No. The main character is always the most difficult one, for sure. Yeah. Um, and, and I, I dunno, I think there's something about the side characters that I feel like I can just be more playful with mm-hmm<affirmative> like, cause you don't have to give every side character, a profound character arc, you know, they don't have to learn some great big lesson. They don't have to have flaws that need to be explored and proded at, but that main character it's, it's a tricky to make them likable and relatable, but also, you know, give them somewhere to grow to
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 1:That's writing thing. This is hard.<laugh>,<laugh>,
Speaker 2:It's so hard. Every time I start a new book, I just stare at the blank page and it's like, birthing a child. You just completely forget what it's like.
Speaker 1:I know, I know. I was just thinking, cuz I was at, um, a writing conference this weekend for like the first time in ages and I was so inspired having talked to all the writers there that on the airplane, I decided I'm gonna write myself like a beginning, a new book checklist. Um, and like Marisa, here's all the steps that you inevitably go through, but you like forget and you have to rediscover them every time.
Speaker 2:I know.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So this is like my new project. We'll see if it helps any, I don't know. Probably not.<laugh> I think just to like have something to look at and be like, okay, you've done it before you can do it again.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I mean, we know that at some level, but it's this other level that we are freaking out thinking I don't have it in me. I, that was the right. Those, oh, those other five books that, that was, I fooled the whole world, all the editors, my agent, you know, it was all fake and I'm a fraud, right? Yeah. I think there's so many creators, not just writers go through that kind, you know, just those motions. And not that we sit, I mean, I don't sit in that place all the time, but I do have my moments of, wow, this is really bad writing. I just don't have anything to say today, you know? Yeah. And I kinda like go feel the well and come back to it. Yeah. And hope that hope that inspiration stretch. And it always does. It always does. And that's where you have to have the faith in that.
Speaker 1:Yeah. No, truly. And, and you know, we talk a fair amount on this podcast of how there's, you know, various parts of the process where you just get in your own head and you doubt the story, you doubt yourself. Like you're just convinced that this was a terrible idea and it happens every time. Um, and I think it takes experience to start to recognize like, oh, I'm here again, but right. I'll eventually get through this again.
Speaker 2:Right. Exactly.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Okay. I let's, you had mentioned writing side characters, uh, which is perfect. Cuz there are some really great ones in this book. And one thing that I loved in particular is that the two main characters, Ava and Ryan each have siblings, but they could not be anymore different as far as sibling relationships go. And it almost, almost like Ava and her sisters compared to Ryan and his brother were like such a great foil for each other. Um, so talk to me a little bit about your approach to writing, uh, siblings and writing kind of family dynamics in general.
Speaker 2:You know, that's something that when, when you're writing contemporary, sometimes you can fall back on your own experiences. And when I look at my family, it's a very, um, female matriarchal family and you know, I'm of Mexican descent. And so we all think everyone's business is our business and<laugh> there, it's a very gray, fuzzy boundary system in my family. And then I have three daughters and they're all very close in age and just watching them grow up in their dynamics, nevermind my husband's family dynamics and my husband's also of Mexican descent. And so I think that there are some cultural nuances that came into play with the Granados girls that absolutely felt not necessarily biographical, but definitely different pieces of personalities in each of the sisters. And I really wanted that depth of love and loyalty, even though they fought and they had their wild antics. And you know, you had the two older sisters, you know, Viv and car were so protective of Ava, but in such wildly different ways. Mm-hmm<affirmative>. And I think we see that in families. And so I wanted to bring that to the page and there's so much hilarity to it that I definitely wanted to bring that. And then as far as, um, you know, it was a very different kind of situation for Ryan and his brother Kellys because they have a very different history and yet there's some similarities, but they went down a different path with their relationship. And so, you know, I, I didn't want to create a me family dynamic for both, both Ryan and um, and Ava.
Speaker 1:Sure. Yeah. I, I feel like I, I also, you, you can't really help, but draw some inspiration from your own family life, whether it's, you know, your family life as it is now or from your childhood. Um, if someone is wanting to write really great sibling relationships, but they are an only child, what advice would you give them?
Speaker 2:You know, I think we get so much from ingesting story in every iteration. So whether that's reading books or watching television or seeing musicals or whatever that's form of story may be, I think there's a lot to learn there. So for example, if I'm really feeling like I want to up my game with pacing, then I'm gonna go read a thriller. If I really want to nail, you know, the romance, I mean, I'm gonna go read romance novels. And so I think that you can read anything or just a story that has character dynamics that don't necessarily have to be of blood relation to kind of pick that apart. And I also think that they don't, you don't have to draw from your own family. You can draw from, you know, maybe you had a certain group of friends in middle school or high school, or, you know, maybe you're you have cousins or maybe you've watched. I mean, my mom has four sisters and so watching their dynamics growing up was really interesting. So I think that there are definitely places that we can draw inspiration from that don't have to be, um, in our own nuclear family.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm<affirmative> no, I love it. I think that was really excellent advice. Uh, I'm gonna like totally switch topics here. Um, because one thing that I thought was so well done and so kind of different from, from other contemporary works that I've seen is that you don't shy away from religion. Um, Ava is Catholic and, you know, there's touches of, of her religion kind of sprinkled throughout one of the main characters is a literal Catholic Saint of, um, but it's also like it doesn't take itself too seriously. Um, and I loved that. I thought it was really well done. Was it difficult? Do you feel to strike that balance? Like, was there any hesitation for you there?
Speaker 2:You know, not really. I, I mean, you know, at a personal level, I have a very challenge, challenging relationship with Catholicism. I was born and raised Catholic and you know, we don't have to have that whole conversation, but I tend to look for humor in serious situations. And that even means in situations of death. I mean the Mexican American culture very much looks at death in a different way, whether it's the celebration of dead Los smart, those, or, um, just the way that we celebrate the life of someone who has passed on and the way we consider and think about our ancestors pretty much on a daily basis and, and how that offers us tremendous strength, not just emotionally but spiritually. And so I often will poke fun at the, that I find challenging in my own life, in my own belief system, because I think so much of writing for me is about understanding the world we live in and this human experience that is so challenging in so many ways. And so I think that's what I was trying to do with the Catholicism and drawing on my own experience as a kid, going to confession and thinking it was the most ridiculous thing.<laugh>, and I'm sorry for all the Catholics out there, but I did. I mean, I really felt like, why do I have to do this? Why can't I just talk directly to God? And, um, and so, you know, drawing on those instances as well, it, it didn't, it felt like a very easy thing for me to do.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And Maita the Saint, he is totally one of my favorite characters. Is he a real Saint? I was gonna look it up and I thought, no, I'll just ask.
Speaker 2:Yes, he's actually a fifth century Saint and yes, he's the Saint of teeth<laugh> and, um, and saints, you know, I mean, from an outsider's perspective, I don't know how much you know about Catholicism, but saints are, um, a, a very, very prominent piece of Catholicism, especially in, uh, Latinx cultures. And I mean, like a daily thing, I mean, we have the candles, we have holy water in our house. We are, you know, saying no venas to the saints, like yeah, me was, um, he came to life fully. I rarely edited him. Everything that came out of his mouth made me laugh.
Speaker 1:<laugh> me too.<laugh>
Speaker 2:Just, I found him. And he was just he's, you know, because saints were real humans that the church decided to canonize. And so it's not like he's this angelic, you know, form who is, you know, sitting at the right hand of the creator of the universe and has no emotional feelings, you know? So Hannah was fun. He was a lot of fun to play with.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, he was great. And so believable in this way that like he's from the fifth century, but here he is here, he is now 1500 years later and he's like, I'm just living my best life doing my same thing.<laugh> I'm gonna switch topics just real fast before we go into our lightning round. Cuz I just in looking at your website on your Instagram page, I noticed that you are a busy lady. You've got three books out this year, plus, uh, a contribution to an anthology like holy congratulations.
Speaker 2:Thank you.<laugh>
Speaker 1:So talk to me a little bit about that. How have you managed to balance having so many writing projects going on?
Speaker 2:I'm really tired. Marisa.<laugh>
Speaker 1:Such a legit answer. Um,
Speaker 2:Okay. So I'm, you know, I, I think, um, I really like to be transparent and I think it's very different when, you know, depending on the stage you are in life. So I am not working a full-time job. Writing is my full-time career. Um, my kids are gone and I have tremendous help and support in my family. And so I can really dedicate myself fully to this career and in a way that I could not have done, you know, five, 10 years ago. And so I feel really, really lucky for that. And then in many ways, I think sometimes that can be a challenge too, because then sometimes it's hard to reenter the real world because you're spending so much time in story. And I think too, what, what I think readers will appreciate is I, and you know, this, I may have three books coming out this year. I didn't write through books last year.
Speaker 1:Right. It just
Speaker 2:Happened to be the publication schedule. So the book that's coming this July, um, fractured path was actually written almost two years ago. And so, and you know what publication schedules are sometimes they're two years out. Sometimes they're a year out. It, I mean, it just depends. And so I have been busy. It is a tremendous blessing. I wake up every day in gratitude. What, wondering what I did to deserve a life, a creative life, because I think it's such a beautiful way to live. Yeah. And, and I just pour that into my stories, the best that I can. And, and really, I, I think that it's helped me grow as a human being too, because I think early in my Crow is so scared that everyone's gonna hate my book. It's gonna flop. And I don't put that pressure on any one story if you don't love it. That's okay. Right. I mean, reading is subjective if you love it and find something from that you enjoy from it. Great. But I don't put that pressure on myself anymore. And so it doesn't feel as daunting as it did even just a few years ago.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's so such a good place to get to
Speaker 2:It is. And I'm not, I mean, I have my moments, but for the most part, I really am. I think all of us as creators, you know, there aren't many people who are phoning it in. I mean, we're working really hard, you know, we're doing our best. And I always remember that even if I pick up a book and I, it's just not my cup and I, you know, I can't get into the rhythm of it. I still admire the work that went into yeah.
Speaker 1:That
Speaker 2:And think about how many hands and hearts touch the books that we write from editors to copy editors, to agents, to beta readers, to, you know, I mean the list goes on and on, which is why our acknowledgements are always so long
Speaker 1:<laugh>.
Speaker 2:And, and so, you know, I, I appreciate that. So, so yes, I have been busy. It has been wonderful. I have another busy, um, year coming up next year that I'm also looking forward to. And it's exciting. It's really exciting to finally birth these stories that I feel like I've been sitting on for so long.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. How, what would you say as like a typical writing day or week for you?
Speaker 2:Um, I write almost every day and I'm hesitant to say that because I, I don't wanna make it sound like, oh gosh. I think oftentimes especially, um, new writers think that there's this formula, well, Marisa writes this way. So
Speaker 1:<laugh>
Speaker 2:Um, we try
Speaker 1:Hard to break those down on this podcast. There is no one right way.<laugh> that's
Speaker 2:Exactly right. So if you write one day a week, great. I mean, I used to write in my car at soccer practice, Marisa mm-hmm<affirmative> I, I used to over my lunch break at work, I would wait, you know, I always kept a pad of paper and I'd wake up at 3:00 AM and, you know, go write a couple pair. I mean, whenever I could. And so for me now, a typical day is I am a morning writer. I get up, I, um, start writing and the afternoons are spent editing and revising. So for example, I have a new project I can't talk about yet, but I'm gonna be getting first pass pages on that in the next few days while I'm composing, um, the second book for Lord of nights, which is untitled. I don't know if the title's gonna be and doing second pass on a different Y project. And so what I typically do exercise is key for me. Otherwise I will be completely stressed out, um, getting out in nature and walking my dogs. And so all of that is so important because if I don't nurture myself and feel the, well, I can't go into those stories and you know, you know what writing does it reeks havoc on our bodies. And so we have to take care of that. And it's easy just to get into the grind of, oh God, I've gotta write 15 hours today. And that usually, I mean, that doesn't do me any good, although maybe there are some writers that that works for. So, you know, every day I, I generally, I'm trying to take two days off a week. It just depends on what I have going on. And between projects, you know, I'll take a whole week off and my husband and I will travel all travel with my girls and, um, just kind of go loop for a little while before I jump into the world of literature again.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. No, all, all so good for people to hear. Um, and I love that you bring up that writing Raks havoc on us physically. Um, it's funny. My husband used to, um, poor foundations and he, you know, worked with concrete and it's like, that's a physical job. Like that really takes a toll physically. And so I feel like I can never talk about like my, my creeks and groans and like, oh, I've got such terrible posture. And like, my neck is stiff after editing all day and it's like, it really does. It really does take a toll if you're not treating yourself well and taking breaks and all that.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I mean, our bodies are only gonna do, I mean, as much as we pour into them. Right. And, and so that's why I, I started my journey of wellness a long time ago and it's hard. I mean, I struggle with it all the time because I think, oh, I don't really have to go to the gym today. I don't really have to do that. I, I really should. Right. I get into this whole kind of mantra in my mind of you should be working. You should be doing this. And so, you know, it it's, it can be very challenging to find that time. And even the motivation. I mean, sometimes I'd rather sit around and be really sad that my story's not coming away.<laugh>
Speaker 1:I,
Speaker 2:And I have, you know, a whole, uh, package of Oreos, which is not good for me.
Speaker 1:<laugh>
Speaker 2:Where are those moments too? You know? And I think we have to allow ourselves permission and, and just give ourselves grace, you know, we're so good about giving other people grace. And how often do we give ourselves that same love and attention and grace. And I just feel like that's such an important part of being a writer otherwise, oh my gosh, that little tape that's running in our head. Oh gosh. Some of the messaging couldn't, I mean, it could be brutal.
Speaker 1:Yeah. No, I agree. 100%. And not even just for writers, like just for humans, like I think it's so important to take care of yourself. Yeah. Um, and I, I also, like I've had such a, over the years, such a love, hate relationship with exercise. Um, but I discovered running fairly recently. I'm like, okay. I think, I think I, this is it. I think I finally found like my thing. Um, and I I've started to realize that when I haven't run for a few days, I started to get crabby and I'm like, oh, this is new.<laugh>
Speaker 2:Do you find that when you go out on a run, all the stuff, you know, if your body's tight or however you show your anxiety, do you feel like all of a sudden, oh my God, the anxiety's gone or the stuff you were so, you know, tightly wound about has somehow just gone away in, in that moment of running.
Speaker 1:Yeah. No, it truly, it truly just kind of clears yeah. Your head. Um, and I usually listen to audio books, so it's like, I can eight for a little while mm-hmm<affirmative>. Um, and then I was like, I was trying to explain to my parents cuz they were very confused. Like why is Marisa running? This is not a thing that Marisa has ever done in her life. Um, and I signed up for a half marathon here, just a couple. Oh my
Speaker 2:Gosh.
Speaker 1:Um, and so like all
Speaker 2:Last year,
Speaker 1:So all last year I was training for this half marathon and my parents were like, but why? Um, and finally I, I kind of like had the realization in, in talking to them that it's like, when I'm out on a run, it is the only time when nobody is asking anything from me. Like I don't have to feed my children. I don't have to do laundry. I don't have to write a book. I don't have to answer emails. It is the only, during my day when nobody wants anything. And it's so nice to have that break,
Speaker 2:You know, there was a thread, um, oh I think it was last year cuz I ran for about six years. Um, and then I got this stupid foot thing, but
Speaker 1:Oh darn<laugh>
Speaker 2:I know, I know it's such a bummer. And um, there was this thread that was a, um, some kind of a, a question on maybe it was Twitter I think. And they said, how many of you writers are runners? And this person just wanted to know, do you know how many writers run? I was shocked so many and I don't know what the correlation is, but I thought it was so interesting. That
Speaker 1:Is so interesting. And I think like studies have show that it's really good for like creativity and brain health and like all sorts of things.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, good luck with that half marathon. My goodness. Oh
Speaker 1:Thank you. It happened, I did it. I completed it.<laugh> so proud.<laugh>
Speaker 2:You, as you should be. That's really tough. And, and you know, that feels good too. Right. It's kind of like putting a book out there, be accomplishment of it, regardless of how it's received. You're like, oh my God, I finished another book. Right. You ran
Speaker 1:Hugely marathon
Speaker 2:And you lived to tell about it. So that's awesome.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, there was a lot of parts during the training process. When my thought like, if I can do this, then I can do anything. And it, it really was like that sort of, this just felt like such in a ridiculously ambitious goal for me when I first said it. So,
Speaker 2:And you did it. Awesome. Congrats.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you. And I'm sorry about the foot thing<laugh> but I'm glad that you found other things to kind fill that.
Speaker 2:I do plenty of other things. So it's all good.
Speaker 1:<laugh> all right. Are you ready for our bonus round?
Speaker 2:I am.
Speaker 1:All right. Tea or coffee,
Speaker 2:Coffee,
Speaker 1:Plotter or pants,
Speaker 2:Platter,
Speaker 1:Fate or free will
Speaker 2:Fake.
Speaker 1:Would you rather have the power of persuasion or a photographic memory?
Speaker 2:Persuasion?
Speaker 1:Would you rather go ice skating or tree climbing?
Speaker 2:Tree climbing?
Speaker 1:What is your personal mantra?
Speaker 2:Hmm, that's a really good one. Oh, it would be something along the lines of Mary Oliver has this wonderful poem. And I don't remember the exact words, but it's basically about our only job is to be in awe and tell about it. And every single day I look for something to be in awe over. Even if it's small as a beautiful cactus, the way the sun is setting my dogs, my, you know, whatever it is. I always look for something to be an all.
Speaker 1:I love that. What a beautiful way to live life.
Speaker 2:Thank you.
Speaker 1:What advice would you give to help someone be a happier writer?
Speaker 2:Lean into the fear? I think that we so often as humans wanna push fear away because it's an uncomfortable emotion, but if you pull up a chair and you let the fear, let them, you know, anthropomorphize the it and say, okay, I'm gonna let you sit here and you get to be a part of the process, but you gotta sit in the back. Um, I think we have to lean into the fear because when we try to vanquish it, it, it usually does not turn
Speaker 1:Out.
Speaker 2:Well,
Speaker 1:What book makes you happy?
Speaker 2:Hmm. Well, I don't know if it makes me happy, but one that, um, strikes a chord for me is all the light. We cannot see.
Speaker 1:What are you working on next? All of your many, many projects. I know
Speaker 2:<laugh>, um, I am working on a couple of projects that I can't talk about, but that I am so excited and they're such a sharp departure that I think that, um, my readers are going to go. Oh,
Speaker 1:Interesting. Wow. What a teaser<laugh> lastly, where can people find you?
Speaker 2:They can find me at Instagram, mainly, um, author J Cervantes and I have update only on Twitter, uh, which is Ooh, gosh, I believe. Um, Jen Sevan.
Speaker 1:All right, Jen, thank you so much for joining me today.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. It was so much fun. I appreciate it. And um, any, maybe someday will be in the same city and week in wax poetic about life.
Speaker 1:Oh, I hope so. I look forward to it.
Speaker 2:All right. Thanks. Marissa
Speaker 1:Readers. Definitely check out flirting with fate. It comes out tomorrow. Of course, we encourage you to support your local indie bookstore, but if you don't have a local indie, you can check out our affiliate store at bookshop.org/shop/marissa Meyer. Next week, I will be talking to TJ Alexander about their cozy adult romance chefs and spoiler alert. This book made me really hungry. If you're enjoying these conversations, please subscribe and follow us on Instagram at Marisa Meyer author and at happy writer podcast. And don't forget that we are having our two year anniversary celebration and you could enter to win a free query critique. So check that out on Instagram until next time stay healthy, stay cozy and whatever life throws at you today. I hope that now you are feeling a little bit happier.
