How to Beat the Query Slush Pile and More - Lindsay Eagar - The Patron Thief of Bread

Marissa chats with Lindsay Eagar about her new middle grade novel - THE PATRON THIEF OF BREAD - as well as taking a trip to the bookstore in order to determine your primary genre; how to beat the querying slush pile (and why slush pile statistics aren't really as discouraging as they seem); using an alternate point of view to build on your story's major themes; upping the stakes in a "quiet" story by giving your protagonist an impossible choice; the fun dynamics of the rag-tag group of characters, and why we all love a found family story; and some top tips for becoming a more prolific writer... just keep in mind that productivity can and should have limits.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:10

Hello, and welcome to the happy writer. This is a podcast that aims to bring readers, more books to enjoy and to help authors find more joy in their writing. I am your host Marisa Meyer. Thank you so much for joining me. One thing that is making me happy this week is that I can talk again. Um, I, we obviously didn't have episodes come up the last couple of weeks because I had a bad case of laryngitis. Um, there was about nine or 10 straight days when I couldn't speak above a whisper. Um, my voice is still a little scratchy, a little wonky. Some of you can probably tell already, um, but at least I can talk again. Um, and you just one of those things that you don't realize how much you take it for granted until it's gone and trying to communicate with my children and get their attention and turns out if I just clap really loudly, they actually respond better than what I call their names. So that was a fun thing that we discovered. Anyway, thank you all so much for your patience. Uh, thank you to the wonderful group of author guests we have coming up who were very generous and flexible in letting me push back all of their interviews. Um, we are back on track now and I'm really excited to be talking to today's guests, uh, and all of the awesome authors that we have coming up. And one random bonus of kind of a two week break is that I am actually ahead on my reading schedule now, which I cannot remember the last time that happened. So that has been really nice. Of course, I am also so happy to be talking to today's guest. She's the author of the critically acclaimed middle grade titles hour of the bees race to the bottom of the sea and the Bigfoot files her newest middle grade. The patron thief of bread is coming out tomorrow on May 17th, please. Welcome Lindsey eager Larissa. Hi, thank you so much for having me. Thank you so much for coming and again, thank you for letting me postpone our conversation by a couple of weeks has been a long time coming. Of course, of course. I'm glad to hear that. You're feeling better. Thank you. I am. It's weird cuz I feel fine. Like I'm not sick at all. I just have this weird voice thing and I dunno what it is, but I've been sensitive to laryngitis my whole life. Like it kind of comes on randomly every few years and there was one time in college when I couldn't talk for an entire month and it's like, I don't know why I'm so vulnerable to this, but it is a thing that I get every once in a while. Oh wow. I think some people just have areas in their body that are more vulnerable to different things. I think so it must be. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm like, let me start a podcast.<laugh> um, but I'm so glad to have you I'm so excited to talk about your book today. I thought it was so sweet. Such a charming story. Aww. Um, why don't we kick off our chat by, uh, one question that I like to ask all of our authors is what is your author origin story? Hmm. How did I become the villain? I am<laugh>. We are all villains. We have a little bit of those tendencies don't we? I think we have to. Yeah. Um, I always always knew I wanted to be a writer and I Al I came out of the womb ready to tell stories. I was an early reader, an early writer. Um, and I was very lucky to be raised in a house that was just chalk full of books. And both my parents were readers and read aloud to us. Um, so that was very, very lucky. But the, the, the moment when I realized you could be paid money for writing, um, was around seven. When I read, uh, like a, an illustrated young reader's version of little women and, and Joe comes into the house, waving a$5 check and says, they paid me for a story. I'm an author. And I kind of went, oh yeah, that like, I can get paid to do that. Oh yeah. That's it for me. I that's what I wanna do. So, um, I was, I mean, everybody, everybody who grew up with me knew Lindsay wants to write books. Lindsay's a writer. I carried a notebook around. Um, I didn't do a lot of like journalism writing in junior high and high school, but I did do theater, which there's like a huge overlap. I feel like with, especially children's book authors and people who were drama geeks in high school. Um, it's like, it's like so much overlap.<laugh> exactly. It's like all encompassing storytelling. Um, theater is and, um, so that's, that's what I did. And um, I always was working on novels trying to start novels. Um, lots of like Lord of the rings, knockoffs in, uh, junior high and high school. I would, you know, map things out, um, map out the worlds and then write like two or three chapters and then crap out because I just was not ready to write like a full, giant epic<laugh> fantasy novel turns out. Um, but I finally finished my first novel at age 22. Um, I remember exactly when it was, it was, uh, the month of February in 2009. And I, I, it was the worst depression of my life.<laugh> it was, it was after this long, horrible winter of like true depression my days and my nights were mixed up. So I was sleeping all day and up all night, which is not really not good for me personally. Um, but I saw that the Amazon breakthrough novel contest was happening. Do you remember this contest at all? No. I feel like, um, it, it started to become popular like around the time that nano Remo became really popular and okay. Yeah. It just basically was like, it was before the huge wave of like self-publishing. And so Amazon was basically like, send us your novel for this contest and you would get published both with Amazon and then also penguin. You would get a contract with penguin. Oh, interesting. Yeah. I didn't know anything about how publishing actually worked. I, and so I, I was like, aha, an opening, um, and the due date was like a month away and I have nothing, so I yeah. Crashed. Oh, I couldn't be<laugh>. Yeah, I know. I crash wrote this novel in, in about three weeks and it was, it, it was really bad. I mean, I didn't know that revision was a thing. I just sort of proofread it and sent it in. Um, but you know, the most important thing about that was that I had finished a novel and once I had finished one, then I was like, oh, well, okay, that wasn't so bad. I could do it again. I could write another one. Um, so I did, that was also the year I became a mom and my life completely changed. And that was very unexpected and very like, not at all what I was planning to do that year. But, um, so the, the next two novels that I wrote, um, the next one was like a ye set in Ireland with like bagpipe playing mermaids. Um, again, like not great, but, but I wrote it and I finished it and that one, I kind of tried to revise or at least I, I started to understand like, oh, you don't just write the draft. And then, you know, the book is done. Mm-hmm,<affirmative>, there's more to it. That was around the time when I got on Twitter and started following other authors and writers and agents. And, um, really just got a crash course in publishing. Um, and then the third novel I wrote was actually race to the bottom of the sea, which is my second published book, but that was the first middle grade I wrote. And, um, I actually, I, I switched to writing middle grade, um, at least at the time, cuz I, I consider myself a writer of, of everything. Um, but I, I wrote a middle grade next because I had a, another friend who, uh, was also a writer who gave me really great advice. And she said she had read the mermaid book and said, I don't know if this is Y or middle grade, your characters like 15, um, mm-hmm<affirmative> and yeah. And some parts feel middle grade and some parts feel why. And I didn't know what those terms meant<laugh> it was like, I have no idea what you're talking about. So she said go to the bookstore and without thinking too hard, just go right to the section that you normally would go to the, the section that has the books that you normally shop from. And I, and she said, and then that's what you should be writing. And um, so I went right back to the middle grade section. That's where I always would go that's where, oh, how interesting. Yeah. That's where like rolled doll was and kinda a Cleary and a series of unfortunate events, like all of the books that were so near and dear to my heart. And so, um, so I knew I wanted to write a middle grade next and that was race to the bottom of the sea, which, um, I, boy, I learned how to revise with that book. I revised it so much like for a couple years. Um, and, and finally got to a point where I was like, okay, I don't have the chops yet to write this the way that I want it to be written. So I, I put it down and, um, started another book which turned out to be hour of the bees that was in June of 2013. And then, um, got my agent in August. And we went out on sub in may of the following year and sold both hour of the bees and raced to the bottom of the sea in a two book deal to candlewick in June of 2014. And that is how I became the villain. I am<laugh>. I love it. I am really curious with, you know, so you write, raise to the bottom of the C and you clearly knew that it wasn't ready or that you weren't ready for that book yet, but how, how did you know that, that one just wasn't where it needed to be or that you and your skills weren't where you needed them to be? Yeah, two things. I, first of all, I just couldn't leave it alone. Like I just, and um, I know there are some authors who would continue to tinker with their books until their pride out of their hands. I'm not one of them by the time we get done with line edits, um, and it, and it goes off to copy edits. I really feel like I'm, I'm done I'm, I've emotionally moved on and it feels like, um, yeah, like that's, that's just like door closed. Um, and I, I just didn't feel that way with race. Like it just still felt so UN unfinished and the, the main thing I was actually doing during that revision was pairing it down. I had basically tried to pack in like five books worth of plot in there. So, so every, yeah, like, and, and like 30 characters and, and I have had those books. I know exactly what you mean.<laugh> yeah. Well, I just thought, well, if, if, um, the more excitement you put into a book, the better it will be, right? No, no, no, no, not, that's not really how storytelling works. Um, so, so there was that, and then the other thing, um, like more practically is, um, let's see, this would've been 2012. I had had seen on Twitter that a literary agent was looking for a remote unpaid intern to spend like 10 to 20 hours a week, um, helping her with like her slush pile and reading manuscripts. And so I applied for that and, um, and she hired me. It was Mary Cole who, who, yeah, she's still around. She's a, a freelance editor was the other agent that offered for me actually<laugh> oh my gosh. That's so love Mary. It was so such a tough decision for me to make. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, she's, she's great. And she was great and I learned so much from her. Um, but I remember the first day that I was getting in her slush pile to sort of look at the queries that were coming in. And, um, she wanted me to like send out rejections to the ones that were very obvious rejections. And I remember thinking like, oh God, like that's a lot of pressure. How will I know if it's, if I should reject it or not? And she just sort of was like, oh, you'll know, you'll know<laugh>. And so I kind of had this moment before I like clicked the first like clicked into the inbox where I was like, okay, this is either going to make me feel so discouraged about publishing. Like I'm gonna open this and see like all of these amazing writers and I'm gonna feel like, oh my God, there's no way that that could ever be me or it's gonna make me feel a lot better, cuz I'm gonna see that it's not really so scary. And it was the latter for sure. Like I opened it and was like, oh, of all of the hundreds of queries that, you know, agents get per day. So many of them are like, I'm writing the next DaVinci code and you can have 50% of the profits if you'll just help me write this book, you know, like just, just people who are I'm sorry, just like don't understand how it works at all. Um, but I, I read a lot of manuscripts. Um, and so I kind of had a baseline for where I knew race to the bottom of the scene needed to be, and it just wasn't there. And I remember thinking like, okay, I could send out a bunch of queries, um, and query race and hope that some agent sees the potential, but that would just be racking up rejections just to sort of have some skin in the game and feel like I'm moving forward with the next step of the process. But why, why, why query when I'm not a hundred percent ready? And so I, I, I'm not usually very patient, but, um, but I was able to really wait. And in fact I was waiting so long with our, of the bees. I hadn't started querying yet. Um, and then I started querying because I had posted my query letter for feedback on, um, during write on con. And there were agents that had messaged me in the forums and were like, oh, I wanna read this. And I was like, oh, I wasn't querying yet, but I guess I am now. So like, even with bees, like I wasn't, I, I was so, um, patient and waiting until, because again, like why send something that, you know, isn't ready just to get a rejection that just feels cruel<laugh> so, yeah, but clearly you were ready. It sounds like I was with bees by then. Yeah. I just, I, I, I don't know. I just was really waiting until it felt, I, I, the manuscript was ready. The query didn't feel ready. Um, cuz the queries are, are tricky for me and pitches and, and you know, all of that, I'd rather write a whole other novel than have to write a query letter mm-hmm<affirmative> um, but yeah, I apparently I was ready. Yeah. No and I, I love having kind of the behind the scenes perspective there, you know, someone who was actually like gone through a slush pile, um, because we do you hear these statistics that, you know what, at less than 0.0, 1% of queries ever make it to this stage, blah, blah, blah, whatever the St statistics are. And that's so discouraging for an aspiring writer, but as you have said, the truth is that so many of those queries people are just sending it out. Willy-nilly they're not doing their research. They're not doing any prep work. They don't understand, you know, what an agent does or how the process works. They haven't, you know, had anybody review their query letter. Like so many of them are almost don't even really count as far as like competition goes, oh yeah, totally. It, it almost felt like, you know, like I wake up every day and I have like, you know, 40 emails and I I'm always like, oh my gosh, 40 emails, but most of them are just like spam. And so then do they really count if you just have to like, yeah. Right. Delete them like, um, yeah. That's, that's exactly how it was. And, and the ones who were clearly competition or, I mean, I don't like to think of other writers as competition. Yeah. I don't really, either as soon as I said that word, I'm like, that's not the word. I mean, but, but I know, but I know what you mean. Like you numbers to contend with or the, the ki the numbers that you hope, you know, the statistics that you hope to be on, on mm-hmm<affirmative> that side of, um, reading those manuscripts was so incredibly helpful. And, um, even though, you know, not everybody has the chance to get behind the scenes, but, um, you can, hopefully everybody can find at least one critique partner who's, uh, on the same, like at, at the same stage of their publishing journey and, and, um, cuz that's just like such a valuable mirror<laugh> to look into, you know, definitely no. And having, having feedback is so huge, you know, there's always gonna be things that you don't pick up on or you don't notice in your query letter or even in the manuscript itself that someone else is gonna be able to point out to you. I would never send anything out without having at least one trusted reader read into it. You would think that that would be common sense and yet<laugh> and yet no, truly. And I think that's so good for aspiring writers to hear, like, if you do any amount of research into querying or like actually looking up what makes a good query letter or you have someone review it or you do your research into what agents represent your type of work. Like you take those steps and you're already ahead of the game. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Okay. On that note, um, so you have now written your fourth book that is coming out this week. Would you please tell listeners a little bit about the patron thief of bread? Yes, absolutely. So this is a historical fantasy middle grade, I say fantasy, but it it's very light on the fantasy. Really. The only fantasy element is a talking Garmo. Um, so if, if you're looking for something epic and sprawling, this is not it. Um, but it is set in, uh, an analog to medieval France. And it is about a group of rag tag pick pocket orphan thieves who decide to settle down in one town and put their youngest thief, their youngest member of their gang into an apprenticeship with the local baker in the hopes that she will, you know, steal bread and steal coin and give it to them directly. And this is great. This is a great plan. Um, the youngest thief, um, her name is duck and she's very small and very quiet and kind of inexperienced, but, um, she feels pretty confident about her ability to do this until she, you know, gets into the bakery and meets the baker. GDA baker is this larger than life, very warm, very jolly character who immediately, you know, kind of mothers duck. And, um, the book is really about Duck's torn loyalties between the found family that raised her, the only family she's ever known and, um, and GDA baker who is ready to<laugh> have duck join her family sort of permanently and, um, sort of Oliver twist vibes. I, I like to say. Um, and then the other half of the story is about, um, a gargoyle who lives on the unfinished cathedral, the roof of the unfinished cathedral in the same town. And he's very grouchy. He hates the birds, he hates the, the other gargoyles because they're loud and they gossip. Um, but really, uh, he he's curmudgeonly, but he's very lonely actually and very sad and he's sad and lonely because his cathedral will never be finished, which means he will never get to be a proper gargoyle, um, because there will never be people that come into the cathedral for him to protect and gargoyles protect that's their job. So, um, the gargoyle and duck, their storylines converge at the very end. Um, and it's just like a very cozy, comforting, warm book to read. I mean, I, I revised it during the first year of the pandemic and just really wanted it to feel like you're holding a very warm loaf of bread. And, um, it it's, it's about found family and it's about identity and, um, it's, it's a very hopeful, hopeful book. Mm-hmm<affirmative> I think cozy and comforting are really good words to describe it. It's reminded me of, um, just one of those books that I would read when I was growing up that, you know, it's, it's quiet, but it's beautiful, you know, and one of those books that, yeah, you just wanna kind of wrap yourself up in. Thank you. Yeah. I, I absolutely knew that it would be a low stakes book. Um, nobody dies. Nobody's saving the world. Nobody's, you know, there's no like big, I don't know, like, um, superhero type stakes. Mm. Um, I, I just, yeah. And, and, um, especially, especially during the pandemic, it felt like this was absolutely the kind of book that I wanted to throw out into the world as an offering. Yeah. No. And you mentioned like the Oliver twist vibes and it absolutely has that, you know, just as far as like street urchins and like the sound family and all of this, but like not nearly as depressing, like I couldn't get through Oliver twist cuz I was just like this poor child, my heart just takes for him every page. Yeah. Or Oliver and company, if you grew up in the eighties, that could also be<laugh>. Yeah. It's um, there were, I didn't set out to do an Oliver twist retelling, but there were plenty of story beats where I was like, uhoh am I, am I doing an Oliver twist retelling<laugh> don't like, realize it. Um, so it's definitely in the DNA. Yeah. No, but the very different, very different stories. Yeah. Um, okay. I wanna talk about the gargoyle. Yes. Uh, because you opened the introduction of the story opens from the perspective of this gargoyle and I think it was such an interesting choice to kind of have this secondary subplot going along with the story. Uh, so where, where did that inspiration come from and for you, like what do you feel like is the significance of the gargoyle and why was it so important to get his perspective? Mm yeah. So I, I usually know exactly where like every element in, uh, of my books come from, like sometimes even down to the word choice. Um, but the gargoyle, I can't pinpoint exactly when and why he popped into my head. I do know around the time that I started like writing this book. Um, I, I do know there was a moment when I was watching beauty in the beast with my daughter and at the very end, the castle being transformed and all of these hideous gargoyles sort of get washed and, um, turn into angels.<laugh> I remember like it's always a little unsettling because angels are not supposed to be creepy, but they, they kind of are in their own different way than, than gargoyles are creepy mm-hmm<affirmative>. Um, and around that same time, there's a, uh, there's a picture book that my daughter always wanted to read. It's called God, bless the gargoyles. And it is by Dave PKI of captain underpants and dog man fame. It is not the kind of book you would expect from him, but it's, it's this gorgeous. Um, I think it's inverse and it's it's about how gargoyles used to be on all of the cathedrals. And then they were all replaced by angels. And where are they all now? Well, they're all around us. Like guardian angels is this beautiful, poetic, um, picture book. And so I, I, I, I was thinking a lot about the angels versus the gargoyles thing. I just thought that was interesting and fascinating. And, um, especially, you know, one of the things that I think everybody has this little trivia about gargoyles, that they were meant to scare the bad spirits away and protect the people of the cathedral. And, um, so yeah, I, I started out with just that idea of a Gargo, um, trying to like ready to protect. And this grouchy voice came to me that that opening chapter is the first thing that I wrote in this book. And it stayed pretty much the same, like a few words and things have been changed, but, um, and expanded, but it's pretty much verbatim. Um, how I first wrote it. I, I just could hear his voice so clearly in my head. And I'm also a writer who loves the challenge of different, like structural challenges, different, you know, like narrative things and, um, writing from the perspective of a, a gargoyle who doesn't move, who doesn't ever, he doesn't ever speak to the humans. He's not like a Disney<laugh>, he's not the hunchback of Notre Dame going, no, no, no, no. He's not playing cards with the birds or walking around or his mouth doesn't move for all we know. Um, and yet he's alive. So that's, that's the kind of creative challenge that I like as a writer. Mm-hmm<affirmative> as far as like his significance, I mean, um, you know, he's, he's up high and he's watching over everything and, and, um, he is in the beginning and in the end, he, he does give us this like bird's eye view of, of, of, um, story beats and things that are happening that are gonna be important to the plot. But he also represents, um, like the passing of time and, and kind of your, your place in the world. There's a, there's a, uh, a chapter that, where he, he talks about everything that goes into the building about cathedral and how long they really took. And something that really struck me was the idea that if you were around, if you started work on a cathedral, um, whether it was as, you know, a patron or a builder or somebody who was working on the plans, um, you, you knew that you would not be alive to see it finished mm-hmm<affirmative>, which is this beautiful, like romantic gift, you know, this like very hopeful, um, pay it forward kind of action to take, to, to start work on something that you won't even be able to see finished. Mm-hmm<affirmative> um, and you know, the, the book itself is very much about like finding your place in the world, but also deciding what your role is going to be. Um, and a, a grouchy gargoyle who is literally, he's stuck up there. I mean, he's made of stone, he's stuck, um, until time makes him crumble down or until they, you know, decide to, uh, demolish his building. Uh, it's the perfect character to really see a trans, an internal transformation as far as like, perspective about where you belong and what your, what your life is is meant for. Yeah, no, I, I had actually written down, um, like to me, I felt like that theme was coming across really strongly. And I wrote, what were you created for, um, as a part of my, my notes and what I was preparing for our, our interview, um, because I feel like the gargoyle, he does encompass that, like, he has this idea of what he was created for, and he is so frustrated that he will never get to protect anyone. He will never really have his purpose fulfilled. Um, and then I think that it is more subtle in duck storyline, but I think it's still there too, this idea of purpose. And what were you personally made to do? Yes, absolutely. It's a theme that, um, pops up in my work a lot, actually, this idea of being torn between two different identities that you hold and yeah. Um, and yeah, I just think why choose<laugh>. You can be, you can be both, you can both fulfill your purpose and not fulfill it or fulfill it in a way that no one saw coming. Yeah. Well, that's a perfect SIG into, um, talking about duck, uh, because she does have these two very opposing situations that she is in, and she is kind of caught between this found family, this group of orphans that have raised her versus the baker that she's interning for. Um, and of course, as we get to know the baker, we there's so much subtext about how much she longs for a family and longs for a child and wants to kind of adopt duck, but there's just like so much push and pull there. Um, and I thought it was funny when you were talking earlier about how this book, like, it doesn't have any big explosions. It's not like a big loud, you know, superhero epic or anything. And yet there is so much tension and so much suspense just watching duck try to maneuver between these two totally different. Yes, it is. I, I actually saw somebody<laugh> online, um, who, who read the book and said, this wasn't comforting. It was so tense. I just was so nervous the whole time. So, um, yeah, it, I, I really put duck in a tough situation and then kept her there for scene after scene, after scene. Yeah.<laugh> um, back to being villainous<laugh> I know, I know it's so true. Well, it was so, um, it was a lot of fun, feels like a very trite word to use, but it was very, um, rewarding as a writer to sort of push the pendulum back and forth and really have her be like loyal to the crowns in this chapter, and then loyal to the baker in this chapter. And, and, you know, every time she had a feeling either way, um, she also felt this tremendous guilt over, you know, the other, the other half of her life, you know, what does that mean for them? And, um, oh yeah, it was a blast. It was, it was, it was a lot of fun<laugh> did you, so, you know, when it, so, and that's very much at the heart of this story, this kind of push and pull, um, this little girl trying to figure out where do her loyalties lie and what does she want for herself and for her loved ones mm-hmm<affirmative>, was that very, just integral to the plot from the beginning? Or do you feel like, as you were revising the story, did you really kind of have to push or pull it one direction or the other, oh, it was, that was the story all. I mean, that was just it. I knew, I knew I was gonna put a thief in a, a bakery and, um, watch her try to justify stealing for the other thieves and also watch her justify, you know,<laugh> coming to really love this baker. And, um, I, I always, yeah, I just, that was the story to me. Yeah. Was, was seeing and, you know, I always, um, I love found family stories. I love stories about the back and forth, the torn loyalties. Um, and I love to watch the, like the split that happens at some point. And I, I guess, like mild spoiler, but like, I don't make duck shoes in the end, um, who she's gonna go with and who's gonna be the one true family. She really figures out how to have both have all of these people in her life still and, and kind of on her terms. Um, because yeah, I just, I just, I, and I, I tried to think of it too, as like, you know, around the crowns, this, this gang duck is one version of herself and she has this one identity that in the way that we all do with our, our families, you know, um, I'm the oldest, so I'm in my family, so I'm always the bossy one. And I'm always, um, you know, I played the piano growing up, so I was the musical one. And I, but then, you know, my sister was the sporty one and, you know, like we all get these assignments. Um, mm-hmm,<affirmative> these, these roles given to us. Um, and then, you know, you create other relationships or other groups where you might have different identities. And I just love watching those clash and trying to bring those together. I mean, it, it can be the most awkward thing, um, in real life when you realize you've gotta be two different people at the same time. Um, yeah. Like, you know, when you introduce your boyfriend to your family for the first time, and you're sort of like, oh no,<laugh>, my family sees me as like so goofy, but I've been trying to be like very sophisticated for my boyfriend and how am I gonna bridge that gap? Yeah. Um, but, but the cool thing that happens, hopefully if you're lucky is that this amazing, like synergy happens and you become this like third version of yourself that, that combines them both. Um, so I just, I, I wanted to yeah. Put, put duck through poor duck through that, um, that grinder<laugh> no, and it is poor duck is right. And she's such a relatable character. And I'm wondering if that was difficult to accomplish, because she is so quiet, um, particularly at the beginning. And she's one of those characters that is, uh, a little difficult to kind of get a hold on, like, who is she? Oh, yeah. Because she's so quiet. Was it difficult for you to figure out who she is? Totally. It totally was. And, um, it was difficult, uh, to not make her a symbol or like a caricature or to, or to not make her, um, so much of like the straight man in this story, especially like every other character is pretty colorful and, and, um, hopefully like memorable and, and really distinct, um, and duck. Yeah. She did need to be sort of, uh, the one in the middle. Um, and she is so quiet. Oh my gosh. She's so quiet. And that was so<laugh>, that was so hard as a writer without any dialogue<laugh> right. Right. Well, I mean, luckily like, um, the story was in third person, always, I always knew it would be in third person and it's we get right into her head. And so that was that's helpful. Um, but also just making sure that, um, it's really clear what her relationships are with the others around her. So for instance, the leader of the crowns is this older boy named Nat. Who's really kind of nasty to duck<laugh>. Um, he calls her, they, they named her duck because they found her floating in the river, but he calls her garbage because garbage also floats in the river. And, and we don't ever really, exactly learn why he's so cruel to her. Um, other than just sort of biggest brother youngest sister behavior. Um, but, but making sure that that's very distinct, um, compared to some of the other gang members, she's the closest to this boy named Ash who was the one who actually plucked her out of the river and was the closest to like a parent figure for her growing up or like a big brother. Um, his, her relationship with Ash is, is a lot different. And, and in fact, if in the first, you know, third of the book, if she's going to speak, it's going to be to Ash. Um, she can, she can open up to him and, and speak to him. So, um, so I, you know, I relied on, on those relationships to really, um, help the reader know who duck is. Yeah. And of course being quiet is in itself a character trait. And one that I think a lot of readers especially can really relate to like, yeah, I was the quiet one too, growing up. Yeah. Absolutely. And I for sure was not. Um, so, but I, I had to think about, um, I mean, in this, in this story, I, well, okay. I don't think you ever have to justify being quiet. I don't think you ever have to justify that as a trait in this story. However, it really does make sense that duck is quiet. Um, she's the one who's chosen to go be the apprentice because she's quiet. Yeah. That's an asset. Um, and so that helped too, as a writer, just like, okay, she's not quiet because I don't have anything for her to say, she's quiet because the plot requires her to be quiet. Right. Right. Um, so earlier you mentioned that this is a found family story. Um, and I think it could be argued that it's kind of two found family stories. Yeah. Um, and I also, I love a found family and I think that there's something, um, especially writing for this age group when, you know, kids are trying to find themselves and figure out who they are. And so much of that revolves around figuring out what groups you fit into and finding your people. And I just, you know, there's a reason I think that we respond to that on such a deep level. Um, plus in this book, we've got like the whole, the street urchin slash orphan gang scenario going on. And I was thinking about it as I was reading and how these stories, they rock this strange line between being absolutely horrifying, like this idea that you could be abandoned and you are on your own and how scary that would be for a kid mm-hmm<affirmative>. And at the same time, there is such a powerful fantasy element. There's no parents, you can do whatever you want. Just absolute freedom. And I, I had never really thought of it before, but I feel like it is so compelling in this book in particular. What do, why do you think kids respond so strongly to that? Oh yeah. It's absolutely, um, a, a fantasy. And it's also like a, a trope in middle grade to get rid of the parents somehow whether killing them off or, you know, there's so orphans in middle grade, because as a writer, you've gotta figure out how to get these kids to be independently doing potentially dangerous things, uh, without constant supervision.<laugh>, um, which it's are such a drag. Oh my gosh. They get in the way of everything. Um, it's funny though, because, um, the only other in race to the bottom of the sea, my main character is an orphan, but that's the story. We see her parents in the first few chapters and we see them, well, we don't see them die, but we're there with her when they die. And then we see the aftermath. Um, but other than that, like all of like my other books, the, uh, the parents are there and they are involved in the story they're right there. Um, and it's funny because even with this street gang of orphans, I still found a way to add in parent figures. Mm-hmm<affirmative> so I don't know, there's some, I'm sure there's some like thing that I need to work out in therapy about why parents are so important to me on the page. Um, but I also think about, uh, I mean, I don't think it's a bad thing for parents to be important.<laugh> it's not, no, no, no, it's not, it's not, it's just one of those things that, well, and like my next book coming out, the par, like it was a real struggle to figure out how to have my teenage character have some independence when her parents are literally right there. And I, it was the same thing again where I'm like, Ugh, orphan characters are so much easier in so many ways for this reason. Um, but I, I mean, I really, really love this is sort of, I guess, repeating what I already said, but I really love the idea that in these found families, um, or even whatever your family looks like, you still find ways to take on these roles and you parent each other. Um, one of my, my very favorite found family stories is hows moving castle. Um, especially because I just love the randomness of all of the different family members that get put in. There's a fire demon and there's a, a dog and a witch and a, and a, a wizard, a, a grouchy, you know, tantrum throwing Broy wizard and a scarecrow with a turn up for the head and this old lady, who's actually a young girl and, um, and a, and a, a young boy, um, who disguises himself as an old man. Sometimes I just love the, the rag tag tag Motley group. Um, and they all take on perhaps different roles than you would expect, you know? Um, how will brews like a teenager, even though he's, you know, the, the oldest, the closest thing to like a dad that you have in that group mm-hmm<affirmative> and yet he needs to be babied. It's just, it's, it's fun. And it's something to really think about. Just the idea that like, no matter, like, no matter what you look like or what age you are or what circumstances you're in, um, you can tap into some of these other parts of you. And especially when you have relationship dynamics that call for these different things and, you know, find that you are the one who's mothering or the one who needs the mothering. Mm. Um, so it's, it's a fantasy. I mean, the parents aren't hanging around in the Goonies because the kids need to go off and go have their adventure. Um, yeah, but there's, I don't know. It's, it's interesting to think about, well, what if, what if the parents hung around though? Like, could you still, could they come on on adventure too? Somehow<laugh> adventure wanna get left out all the time, right? No, I do. I, I totally hear what you're saying. And it is so fun. Uh, both as a reader and a writer to see some of these dynamics start to really shine on the page. Cause I feel like sometimes in writing, you know, you don't know how the characters are always gonna respond to each other and interact with each other. And when it turns into something that's really fun and, uh, magical, but also creates really good drama in this story. It's like, it feels like you've just struck gold. Like, I didn't know it was gonna happen that way, but man, did I nail that one?<laugh> it's the best. I always say out loud, like, oh my gosh, my brain is smarter than me.<laugh> thank you so much. I did. You did it again. Yeah, exactly. I wanna, um, change topics briefly because I saw on your website that you were also a writing teacher. Yes, I did that. Um, I, I, sorry. I'm like hesitant to be all like yeah. Rah rah writing classes, because I did that really, um, briefly and we'll do it again in the future, I think. Um, but I, I opened up to writing classes after this nightmare year that I had in 2019 where I was ghost writing, um, romance books for money. My husband had lost his job and it was one of those weird times in publishing where like my payouts were like nine months, you know, apart. And, um, so I took on this ghost writing job and ended up ghost writing 25 romance novels in one year. Oh my goodness. It was like, oh yeah, it was a lot. It was, it was so bad. And that does not seem humanly possible. It was, uh, it was like 50 K a week, basically. It was a lot. And, um, I'm still recovering from that in a lot of ways, but I, I took this leap of faith and was like, well, people know I'm writing this quickly and they wanna know the secret and there's no secret, there's a million secrets and they might work or they might not. And that's how the classes started. So in 2020, um, right. When everything was being shut down and people were, I don't know, looking for ways to distract themselves and to fill their time and to, you know, use their, use their time at home wisely. Um, yeah, I, I taught, I had, uh, 250 or 300 students that year writing students. Um, and it was, it was great. I just am sorry. I'm a little burned out still from teaching in case you can't tell. Yeah. No, by the fair enough people don't go to Lindsay's website expecting to join her class.<laugh> no, no, I will open them again. Um, someday when I'm, when I'm ready to, but I needed to have some time, speaking of identities, I just was like, oh no, am I a writing teacher first and foremost now? Like, are people Googling me more for my classes than for my books? And so, and then I was like, I'm gonna take like a year off from teaching and just be writer Lindsay for a while. And just that's, that's who I wanna be. Even though I am a pretty decent teacher, um,<laugh> turns out just because you're good at something doesn't mean you have to do it, you know, that's totally fair. And sometimes we just need to recharge our batteries and kind of refocus too, and decide like, what about this? Do I enjoy? And how can I do more of that? And what about this isn't working for me. Exactly. And I, I was so grateful to be able to do that, especially, uh, when so many other people were having a lot of uncertainty about what they would be doing work wise. Like it was a real, you know, just fortunate, fortunate and strange turn that my career took. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So if I ever open up the classes again, well, I, yeah, I'll, um, I will announce it far and wide. Okay.<laugh> well, on that note, uh, not that I would like recommend to anybody to try to go write 25 books in a year. Cause that sounds like really bad for your health<laugh> it was very bad. It was very bad. However, if someone wants to increase their productivity or feels like I have more books in me and I want to get more on the page this year, what are some of your top tips? So my biggest thing is to remove all of your self censoring mechanisms. And for me that means very, very messy first drafts that you don't even have to call them first drafts. You can call them zero drafts or word dump or whatever gross thing you want to call them. Um, so for me, it is about, uh, if you can imagine just like removing any kind of, uh, floodgate or barrier or, uh, anything at all that is going to funnel the words out of your brain down through your, and onto the page, um, remove that, get rid of it. And that means sometimes that I type everything that comes into my head, um, and it means sometimes bad sentences and sometimes like thoughts to myself get mixed in with the draft. But by pausing every time I pause to have a thought or to write a note somewhere else, the pause to stay organized and to keep those thoughts to myself, separated from the actual draft costs me the momentum. And so, um, it seems counterintuitive and it see, it is definitely very messy. There's some writers for whom like this will never work because that just will give them hives to think of such a messy first draft. Um, but that's, I mean, that's the core of what I do. Um, and then, you know, then the draft becomes less of a draft and more of a, um, a way of telling yourself the story first or outlining it. And then you build from that first draft a, a, a new draft that is hopefully more readable. Um, but I also embrace the placeholder, like the idea of a placeholder where, you know, you know, you need to name someone or you need to come up with a description for something, or you need to figure out what model of airplane would be flying in 1932, just put a placeholder in and come back and find that later. Um, not only is it great for your current momentum when you're writing. Um, but it also is really fun later, actually, when you are not, if you're not in a mood to be like creating, um, it's really fun to take the time to go through and, um, fill in all your placeholders. It feels like secretary work sort of mm-hmm,<affirmative>, it's like a very left brain activity kind of thing that you can do that actually really helps, you know, fill out your draft. Yeah, I do the exact same thing. I am such a fan of the placeholder. I don't know how I ever got anything done before that. Yeah. And I love that then. Exactly. Like you're talking about, you can have a day where you just don't have, you know, the energy or the mental capacity to write new words and you're like, I'm just gonna go research all of these totally random things that I was supposed to research<laugh> oh yeah. It's the best I get out the index cards and like do it. Oh yeah. It's, it's the most fun, so much fun. Awesome. Well, thank you for sharing that and, uh, hats off to you. I, I mean, I'm kind of glad that that year of your life is over<laugh>. Oh yeah. Never was. I also, it was the hamster wheel of hell. That's what I called it because it, uh, you know, when you're, when you're Lance freelancing, um, in any capacity, if you stop doing the work, the money stops coming. So then it becomes this like horrible Ugh cycle, but oh yeah. Never. I will never do that again. I will. Yeah. Uh, I will do a million things for money before I will do that again. Yeah. But do you feel like having been through that, does it now give you this sense that you can do anything in your writing career? Oh yeah. And it, it taught me so much. I mean, I learned about the self-publishing arm of publishing, which, um, I didn't know a ton about before and like that knowledge, I think it's, it's something that, um, I had very strong opinions about before, as somebody who is traditionally published and has always wanted to be traditionally published, but it's such, it, it, it just let me know, um, it like strengthened this conviction, uh, that whatever you wanna write, there's an audience for it. And there's a, a method of getting it out there in the world. Um, it may not be for traditional publishing, but it might be perfect for like a really small press or to self-publish on your own. And there's, you know, there's some genres and, and sub niches that do really well with traditional publishing. And there's some that do really well with self-publishing. So you do have to, you know, do a little research, but whatever you wanna write, there is an audience that's hungry for it. Um, which is I think really encouraging. Yeah. Yeah. No, I absolutely agree. And I think it's really important for people to hear too. Yeah. All right. Are you ready for the bonus round? Oh, I am ready.<laugh> tea or coffee. Oh, I'm so both I'm so both I know that's cheating. I know that's cheating, but both I have, yes, both. I accept that answer. Thank you. All of the caffeine, all of the tea, all of the warm drinks. Yes, please. But, um, make you choose between this next one cake or pie. Oh, that's easy cake all the way. Plotter or cancer. Uh, plotter seem very unsure about the answer. Well, well, we all know it's a spectrum, right? Like, yes, all Panthers plot a little bit and all plotters pants a little bit, but I, I think very deeply ahead of time about my plots. So I, I think that makes me a plotter riding in the morning or riding at night, riding in the morning, sunny beach or snowy mountains, snow cold, no warm, no sun, snow cold storm. I am also a snowy mountain person. And I feel like you might be the only person who's ever answered that. I feel like sunny beach wins every time. Yes. Summer is coming and I am not ready. I'm like, get me out of this sunshine. What is your favorite thing about being a writer? Hmm. Sounds very little kiddish, but uh, making up stories. How do you fill the creative? Well, Hmm. Um, playing the piano and going for long walks by myself with no children to talk to me. It's amazing how getting away from the children can be so good for you.<laugh> isn't that something would've thought I had yesterday. I'd been with my girls all day long and it wasn't until about five o'clock that, um, they went off to visit the neighbors and I was like, oh, finally, I can like, think about my book for a second. Yes. Yes. And it just felt so good. It's yeah. It's amazing. What is your personal mantra? This is Al this also feels very, uh, silly, but sees the day. And that has been my mantra since I saw a dead poet society in seventh grade and was like, this is how you live your life. You seize the day. Um, yeah, just seize the day. Make I moment count. Yeah. What book makes you happy? Mm, the witches by rolled doll. Mm. What are you working on next? I am working on my second Y my first ya is done and it will come out next year. Um, very excited about that one. Um, it's sold in 2015. It was supposed to be out in 2019, but like life and children and revisions got in the way. So, uh, so yay for that. But, so this is my second Y and it's a dark academia, Shakespeare retelling set in a very cutthroat high school theater department. Who's very, very personal and very, uh, very fun. Which Shakespeare Richard? The third I one that I don't really know how interest. Yeah. It's a, it's one of the histories. And so nobody reads it, but, um, rich of III is the most cartoonishly villainous character.<laugh>, he's so fun. He literally stands out on the front of the stage at the beginning of the show and says, I'm a bad guy. You're gonna watch me do bad things. And then you're gonna be rooting for me by the end. And you do, you totally do. It's so great. So, um, but my Richard III is gonna be a very, very ambitious, uh, high school girl. I love it. Uh, that's Shakespeare. I know. I love it. Lastly, where can people find you? They can find me mostly on Twitter and Instagram. Um, full disclosure. Instagram is also like where I put pictures of my kids. So if you don't wanna see like the family life don't click on there, but they're very funny and very charming. Um, and I think I'm Lindsay eager on Instagram and Lindsay McCall on Twitter because that's my middle name. And I didn't think ahead of time when I, but if you like Google my name, then my social media accounts will pop up.<laugh> Lindsay, thank you so much for joining me. Thank you for having me readers. Definitely check out the patron thief of bread. It comes out tomorrow. Of course, we encourage you to support your local indie bookstore, but if you don't have one, you can check out our affiliate store at bookshop.org/shop/marisa Meer. Next week, I will be talking with Ste Lee about his contemporary dual Kpop confidential and Kpop revolution. If you're enjoying these conversations, please subscribe and follow us on Instagram at Marisa Meer author and at happy writer podcast. Until next time stay healthy, stay cozy and whatever life throws you today. I hope that now you are feeling a little bit happier.