The Happy Writer with Marissa Meyer
K-Pop, Idols, and Protecting Ourselves from Criticism with Stephan Lee - K-Pop Revolution
Marissa chats with Stephan Lee about his new contemporary YA - K-POP REVOLUTION - as well as the difficult decision to leave your (second) dream job in order to pursue your ultimate dream of becoming a writer; some strategies for giving your ensemble cast of characters great chemistry while making them feel like authentic people; how injecting some sadness into your story can help develop emotional attachment between readers and minor characters; writing song lyrics by replicating real-life musical styles and tapping into your characters' inner emotions; plus a candid discussion on how public criticism can hurt - whether you're a K-Pop idol or a debut author! - and some thoughts on protecting ourselves emotionally from other people's opinions.
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Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.
Find out more and follow The Happy Writer on social media: https://www.marissameyer.com/podcast/
Marissa chats with Stephan Lee about his new contemporary YA - K-POP REVOLUTION - as well as the difficult decision to leave your (second) dream job in order to pursue your ultimate dream of becoming a writer; some strategies for giving your ensemble cast of characters great chemistry while making them feel like authentic people; how injecting some sadness into your story can help develop emotional attachment between readers and minor characters; writing song lyrics by replicating real-life musical styles and tapping into your characters' inner emotions; plus a candid discussion on how public criticism can hurt - whether you're a K-Pop idol or a debut author! - and some thoughts on protecting ourselves emotionally from other people's opinions.
The Happy Writer at Bookshop.orgPurchasing your books through our webstore at Bookshop.org supports independent bookstores.
Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.
Find out more and follow The Happy Writer on social media: https://www.marissameyer.com/podcast/
Hello, and welcome to the happy writer. This is a podcast that aims to bring readers, more books, to enjoy and to help authors find more joy in their writing. I am your host Marisa Meyer. Thank you so much for joining me. One thing that's making me happy this week. You might have seen me post about it on Instagram is that I was so inspired by the heartless musical. Um, that was performed a few weeks ago that I have decided to do an entire Alice in Wonderland themed homeschool unit with my girls this last couple of weeks, uh, which has been super fun. And we've like talked about mushrooms and uh, like why did haters used to go mad and the mercury? And we've like talked about Victorian etiquette and anyway, it's just been so much fun. And then quite serendipitously, I yesterday heard about this thing that's happening. Um, at this local, I don't even really know what you call it. It's like it was an old Fort, I don't know, 150 years ago and they have historical reenactments and this sort of thing. And this weekend they happen to be celebrating queen Victoria's birthday and they're having a traditional English tea and they're playing croquet and all of these things that just tighten perfectly with all the things the girls and I have been learning about. So I was so excited and I got us some tickets and we are going to that tomorrow. And I am really looking forward to it. It's not all the time that things just come together so perfectly. And I'm like, we get to go do this cool thing. That's also quote unquote educational and they don't even realize it, which is the best part of homeschooling. Okay. Of course I am also so happy to be talking to today's guest. He is a journalist who has worked covering books and movies at entertainment weekly, and is currently a senior editor@bustle.com. He is also the author of the contemporary Y a novel Kpop confidential, and it's sequel Kpop revolution, which came out last month. Please welcome Stephanie Lee
Speaker 2:Marisa. Thank you so much for having me. I am so excited. I've been a fan of yours for forever. Um, and I'm so glad that we got to meet in person at teen BookCon last month and now I'm here and I can't believe it
Speaker 1:<laugh> well, thank you. I am also so excited. It was, you know, speaking of serendipity, because I think like the day before I flew to team BookCon, um, I was like going through emails and your publicist had contacted us and I was like, K-pop yes, send, I will have him on the podcast. And the very next day we were meeting and I was like, oh, Hey,<laugh> just,
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1:It worked out just totally.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I totally thought that this all came together because you knew that we were gonna meet<laugh> and you were just like, no, I had no
Speaker 1:Idea. It was such a surprise.<laugh>
Speaker 2:That is awesome. I love knowing that. Wow.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, it is very, very fun. Um, sometimes the universe just gives us a little gift like that, which I'm always like a meant to be. Um, so yes. So welcome. Congratulations on your second book coming out.
Speaker 2:Thank you.
Speaker 1:Um, the first thing I wanna start with asking is I would like to hear your author origin story. What were the, the twists and turns of your life that brought you to this point?
Speaker 2:Sure. So, I mean, I feel like everyone's author origin story basically begins with being a reader as a kid. Um, so even from a very young age, I wanted to be an author. And back when I was a little kid, I often said the word Arthur instead of authors<laugh>. So, um, there's a little anonymous entry in my yearbook when I was in first grade that says, I want to be an author when I grow up and it's attributed to an anonymous first grader. Um, and, um, I actually started, um, speaking to a fantasy author, um, with, uh, being really interested in fantasy when I was a kid, uh, writing a lot of short stories and I always just had that dream. And when I became an adult, I got very serious with school and kind of got trapped in that whole cycle as so many people do of really focusing on a stable career<laugh>. And, but always knowing that I mostly wanted to be a writer. Um, and I really in college though, I didn't really focus on creative writing that much. I weirdly this is so wrong to anyone who knows me, but I was like, kind of focused on trying to be a lawyer<laugh>
Speaker 1:Oh, what a twist
Speaker 2:<laugh>. Yeah, but that fell apart so quickly. Yeah. Um, no, but, um, because I was pretty indecisive when I graduated college, I definitely knew I wanted to move to New York and I actually wanted to work for magazines, which is not any more practical than being an author of books, but it at least felt more like a job. Um, but I graduated in 2008, which was like the height of the recession. And unfortunately, like, it kind of has echos to right now<laugh> but, um, yeah, uh, I didn't because I was so indecisive in college, I never actually prepared to be a journalist either. So, um, I struggled for a long time. I got unpaid internships right out of college and did temping and stuff. And it's so funny because even though I was only 22 or 23, I thought I was so old<laugh> to be doing an unpaid internship back then.
Speaker 1:I remember that feeling also<laugh> yeah. So when is life supposed to start again?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know exactly. But now at the age I am now I'm just like, there is no difference between 24 and 22 in that respect<laugh>, um, or even 28 and 22 for really. Um, but, um, yeah, I soon got, um, a job at entertainment weekly after years of struggle and I started covering books and I did pretty well there. Um, I'm pretty sure I did at least a few email interviews with you back then. Um, and I covered a lot of both adult annual adult books and interviewed celebrities and stuff. Um, and I kind of got to know everyone that I needed to know in publishing to actually get a book published, which actually gave me a huge leg up. Mm. But I hadn't been focused on the actual writing. So no matter what connections you have, if you haven't written your first manuscript, you're, it's, you know, there's really no point in like all that networking, um, you know, aside from what I had to do for my job. Um, so it felt like a little bit frustrating for all those years, because I was just like, oh my gosh, like I'm kind of impatient to have written a bug<laugh>. And I kind of know that if I were to finish one, I could get a manuscript in someone's in the right person's hands right away. So that almost contributed to my sense of urgency and kind of a failure<laugh>. Um, but, uh, I finally realized that journalism and working in magazines and getting to write about cool books and TV and talking to cool creators all the time was actually my second dream job, but not my first dream job. And I realized that a second dream, a secondary dream job is in a way more dangerous than having like a job. You don't care about that much because I still put my heart and soul into it. And I didn't finish that job when I, you know, clocked out at night, um, in a way that you maybe have to for a book<laugh> mm-hmm<affirmative> if, if you wanna write a book on your own time. So I didn't really start to make headway and writing, um, fiction until I quit my quote unquote, real job, um, or my secondary dream job and got a different type of job. That's also great, but not like a passion of mine, um, which I actually still have to this day<laugh>.
Speaker 1:Oh, how interesting.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Um, but sorry, I think I gave you like the story before the origin story
Speaker 1:<laugh> no, I I'm really curious. Just a pause there. Did you was part of the catalyst for quitting that secondary dream job, because you were like, I really need to focus on writing and this isn't working for me.
Speaker 2:Yes. And even though I loved working at entertainment weekly and I loved working in journalism, I still think it's probably gonna be the best job I could ever ask for other than writing books. Of course mm-hmm<affirmative>. But, um, I realized that I wasn't really made for it because I was good at it. And I worked really hard at it because I was really determined to kind of have really cool experiences and talk to really amazing creators that I admired. But at a certain point, I feel like I talked to almost everyone that I wanted to<laugh> like even all these like bucket list, people that I'd never dreamed I'd ever get to interview. And I realized that just getting more interviews under my belt or more stories under my belt didn't really satisfy me. And in a way that's what motivated me up until that point kind of being able to share, oh, look what I did, or like getting to talk to someone. Um, whereas some of my colleagues who were passionate about writing about entertainment and other people's creative work, they didn't seem to get tired of it in the same way. That's really what they wanted. But, um, I'd say like half of the journalists at staff journalists at entertainment weekly were people who definitely wanted to write things themselves one day<laugh> and half and half were people who really just wanted to do that. Mm-hmm<affirmative> um, and it's interesting. A lot of us who are kind of in that first category are like, took a bit longer than I think it would have if we didn't go on this career path, because it really was so satisfying to get that secondary creative satisfaction from other people for a long time. But then at a certain point that wears off or, you know, magazines shut down<laugh> so<laugh>,
Speaker 1:It can kind of push you one direction sometimes.
Speaker 2:Exactly.<laugh>
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I, I think that's really interesting cuz I also, um, before becoming a full-time writer, I was a, a proof reader and a copy editor mm-hmm<affirmative> um, and I also, I loved that job. Like I got to work from home, I had freedom, I was reading cool books and it was like really hard sometimes to be like, oh, but I also still wanna be a writer.<laugh> right.
Speaker 2:Know you kind that's almost too close
Speaker 1:<laugh> yeah, yeah. You can, you can put the other dream on the back burner sometimes.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Um, and then also for you, I mean, you were also of course writing journalism requires you to do a fair amount of writing. And to me, I feel like you could actually speak that to this better than I could. Um, but it seems to me that it would be creatively draining in that way that then to like go home and be expected to create more like that seems like it could be really difficult.
Speaker 2:It definitely could be. Um, especially because mag staff set magazines get, have been getting so much smaller and they do ask you to do more and more and more what really kind of drained me was having to be on the news cycle. Even though I was only ever writing about entertainment. It still is a new cycle. Mm-hmm<affirmative> things are happening every day and you're expected to be on top of it. And if you miss something, you have to be accountable for it, or you might get called out by your boss. And mm-hmm,<affirmative>, I'm just not one of those people who has an endless appetite for news of any kind, because I think I'm just, I'm a deep but slow thinker, if that makes sense. Yeah. Whereas I think a lot of people who thrive on editing or, um, reporting news just have an endless appetite and they're just very fast thinkers and they love having multiple tabs open at all times, both on their phones and on their laptops. Whereas I'm a focus screen type of person<laugh> mm-hmm<affirmative> so I think after a few years I was like something, I, I feel like I've been pretending to be good at this or pretending to be super type a in this way,<laugh> in a way that maybe is not true to who I actually am.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I can totally see that. And I can, I'm similar to you. Like I would just find that absolutely exhausting.
Speaker 2:Right. The actual writing itself was actually could be really fun even if it was so different from the writing I really dreamed of, because it really teaches you to write quickly mm-hmm<affirmative> and kind of write when you have to, which is kind of what you don't hear about when you think about writers and their rituals, but there is so much value in just being able to get something started and finish something usually within an hour<laugh>
Speaker 1:Yeah, no for sure. Right. I, I credit college cause I have a creative writing degree and like mm-hmm,<affirmative> knowing that you have to turn something in, regardless of whether or not you are quote unquote inspired to write like that your instructors don't care. You need to have something to workshop on Friday. And that was such a huge learning experience. Just to know that I can sit down and put words on the page regardless of how I'm feeling that day.
Speaker 2:Exactly. And also the another great thing it taught me was how to write for an audience and with fiction, you don't, I do think that there is a danger in thinking about the audience too much or at all times, but in journalism, especially kind of, you know, mainstream journalism, um, that I was doing the whole point is to get people, to keep reading<laugh> Uhhuh and keep reading from paragraph to paragraph and in a way that is what you are trying to do in fiction. Maybe not quite as systematically, but, um, it's another, you know, muscle that, that helped me work.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, no, that, that makes a lot of sense. Um, so to kinda transition us to talking about your duology, I, I have to ask, did you ever get to interview a K-pop idol?
Speaker 2:Yes. So in 2014, when I was still a staff writer at Ew, this was around the time when had really blown up with Cong on style. And there were a few other big K pick K-pop groups who aren't as big in the weren't as big in the states as some of the current top K-pop groups are now, but it felt like K-pop and Korean entertainment in general was having enough of a moment where the editor in chief at the time agreed to let me go to Korea for three weeks<laugh> to report an entire story about Korean entertainment and the rise of it. And I had not so much has been sent to LA, even working at entertainment weekly. So this was a huge deal for me and I prepared as much as I could, but I realized how quickly, how difficult it was to get interviews or get access, even as entertainment weekly, they still saw us as a foreign publication. And I think that there is a long history of, you know, foreign, um, journalists trying to come in and not really getting it or not coming in with the best intentions. So there were definitely a lot of walls I had to knock down and I actually flew out to Korea kind of telling my editor, yeah, things are going well. I have a lot of things set up, but nothing was set up<laugh> and I was really, really panicking. Um, and I was so scared because the magazine couldn't help me because they had even fewer ties than I did to Korean entertainment. Um, which was nothing<laugh>. But, um, my mom actually moved back to Korea a few years before this, so she was living there. She has no ties to Korean entertainment. She's um, a professor at a small university there, but she, somehow she's just magical. She somehow was able to line up all these interviews and they came together kind of at the last minute, during my last week there<laugh>. Um, and I even got an interview with bong, June ho who won the Oscar for best director and best picture for parasite. Oh my, I got a bunch of K-pop stars, including Tiffany Young from girls' generation a who's this wonderful soloist. Um, and yeah, so I interviewed K-pop stars and I learned so much, the funny thing is, and actually it's a bummer, but literally on my flight back to America, from Korea, there was a changeover at the magazine. And if you know anything about magazine publishing, you know, this type of thing happens all the time. The editor chief got fired<laugh> and his replacement was not interested in the story. So I didn't even get to start writing it. No. Um, after all that work and all those people who made all these exceptions to talk to me<laugh> oh. Um, but it was great in a way, because I did get to sit on all that information and all those interviews and I used so much of it in the books. Oh. Like more than I thought.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I mean, I would think that would be a huge just driving force now behind writing this series, even though years had passed, I
Speaker 2:Assume. Exactly.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Uh, well, okay. On that note, would you please tell listeners a little bit about K-pop confidential and K-pop revolution?
Speaker 2:Sure. So first of all, um, this is something I've had to kind of explain in every kind of interview. It's definitely not just for K-pop fans, despite the fact that K-pop is in the title. Um, because<laugh>, it is from the point of view of a Korean American girl from New Jersey in Candace park. And she doesn't know much or anything about K-pop herself when the book starts. And she doesn't know that much about Korean, Korean culture, just her own Korean American life at the beginning. So she ends up being convinced by her non Korean friends who are actually way bigger Cape pop fans than she is to audition for a us, um, a K-pop talent search. And she actually defies all odds and passes the audition. And she gets invited to go to Korea for a summer to train in a K-pop trainee facility. And of course she has to really, really convince her parents who are more typical Korean American immigrants to let her do this kind of wild and crazy things. But she does not a spoiler alert<laugh> and, um, she flies to Korea and, um, she quickly learns that K-pop is way more difficult and way more serious than she thought. And it's not really just gonna be a summer activity where she learns a lot because K-pop, uh, training facilities, as I often say, is probably the closest thing to a real life hunger games that exist in the world.<laugh> because you're getting all these very talented, young people and they're being trained for perfection in every way by adults. And they're following adult rules. Um, they're all sorts of regulations, um, on how you spend your time. Um, my editors thought that I was really exaggerating when I kind of showed the rigorous kind of schedule that these mostly teenagers go through and it often includes only like four hours of sleep per night, but that is actually very accurate by all accounts. And, um, so it's really different from the American, um, system, if there really is one of the music industry where it's not so much that individuals who have a ton of their own kind of initiative necessarily, um, just do whatever it takes to get noticed individually. It's almost like a lot of people get recruited and they get turned into stars over a period of years and years and years of hard work and only the people who kind of best suit the standards of the industry get to debut. And when you see a new group like black, pink debut, you like, like you should know that, you know, thousands and thousands and thousands of people from all around the world auditioned for each of those spots and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people gave up their entire childhoods for a chance at one of those spots. And like almost none of them make it mm-hmm<affirmative> so, um, it's very high stakes, but it, I also just think it's a metaphor for how high stakes anything is for young people right now and how everything feels like an all or nothing game. So this is the world that Candace finds herself in, but of course I made it sound just so serious and it is, but at the same time, she has a ton of fun and she makes a ton of friends and she also meets two boys, which is also very, very forbidden in the K-pop world. Um, even stars being seen holding hands, um, will just automatically be seen as a huge scandal and it'll ruin careers because just the standards for behavior are very, very different. So, um, yeah, that's what Candace is up against and these two books.
Speaker 1:So you've done such a good job in this book, both in, in book one where she's, you know, going through training and then book two where she's, um, now on the brink of debut and becoming a, a star and in both cases, it's like equal parts fantasy with the glitz and the glamor and the fame and the cute boys and all of this and also a complete and total nightmare<laugh>
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Was it difficult to like balance that throughout the plot? Like, were you trying to create this like dichotomy where it's both all the time?
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I mean, I've gotten some feedback where readers are like, why doesn't Candace just quit or like, why would anyone
Speaker 1:For the record? This is not, I could not do this
Speaker 2:<laugh> I kind of would too, but it's also, um, I, I also feel like a lot of things are this hard or to, in order to succeed, quote unquote, or to, um, be seen as successful. I mean, think of everything that I'm sure you and I did to get into college, like it might be more standard, but think of all the sleepless nights, the kind of round the clock stress that we put ourselves into, because we're kind of told that we have to<laugh> and in a way, um, I don't think we give enough ourselves enough credit for what we go through, um, just to make it in regular life. And this is just a more heightened version of that and slightly more glamorous and also more rigorous. Um, I definitely wanted to show that dichotomy because so many things that are meant to look effortless have so much effort behind them. Mm-hmm<affirmative> um, like look at Simone Biles, um, the greatest gymnast of all time, like everyone just not in addition to just seeing that she was incredibly talented, what kind of took her to the next level was the fact that it seemed easy for her, you know? Yeah. And, um, that's kind of the image that Hollywood and K-pop try to project and you don't really see just how much sacrifice and like how much sacrifice of not just your time, but kind of, of your spirit. It takes to do that. So I wanted to show the fun parts of it because there are definitely fun parts of it. And I don't want it to, I didn't want like the experience to seem completely miserable because like, in a way Candace is still living her dream. And in so many ways, this is the best and worst part of her life at the same time.<laugh> yeah. And I actually find that really relatable in some ways. Um, so I really did wanna show that dichotomy for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I find it relatable too. And like, again, it's so extreme. What she's going through that, like, like I said, I, I would be out,
Speaker 2:I see
Speaker 1:On day one and be like, Nope, I'm good. Thank you.<laugh> um, but at the same time, you know, for people who are passionate about something and even like to a degree, find hard work to be kind of a fun of something and like just a feeling of achievement, like it, you can connect with that a lot. And I, I see, you know, a lot of myself in Candace, not, you know, on the musical or the, the K-pop side of things, but just that she's got grit, like she's willing to, to follow through with stuff. And as a reader, you're just like, yes, you can do this, even though I don't really understand why you would want to<laugh>.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly. And it, it really depends on what you're passionate about. I mean, I think that there are lots of people in the world who would see the experience of writing a whole manuscript and having to throw it away and start over as, just as grueling as what's depicted in the music books.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So it really depends on what your passion and what your kind of desires are, I think.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. No, I think you're absolutely right. I think people hear what I do and what you do, and like, so it takes you how many years to write a book and they're just like, why, why would anybody put themselves?
Speaker 2:Exactly, exactly. Why do we<laugh> yes.<laugh>,
Speaker 1:That's like a conversation for an entire episode right there. Exactly. Um, so one thing that crossed my mind is I was reading the book and, you know, it's, you talk a lot about how going through the process and how kind of just the, the K-pop industry in general, you throw all of these people into this training program and the, the, the CEOs and the managers, the people in charge of putting these groups together. They're trying to put together a group with a, an amount of chemistry. You know, they're trying to find people who play off of each other really well and, and have those sparks between them. And at one point it occurred to me how similar that is to what we do when we are creating characters and trying to, to create cast of characters that have really good chemistry. Um, so tell me a little bit kind of about what you were thinking about when you were writing, not just Candace, but also all of the other characters that she was kind of gonna be thrown into the mix with.
Speaker 2:Ooh, I love this question. So, um, coming up with characters is like my favorite part of writing and also coming up with each person's quirks. And, um, I think something that doesn't get talked about enough in the craft of creating characters is in order to make an ensemble believable, you can't really go into the one of each syndrome, if that makes sense. Like, um, sometimes if you read a contemporary novel or even a fantasy novel, because I feel like characters of any genre have to feel grounded in some kind of reality. Um, I feel like sometimes you'll read a novel where, um, each character is so incredibly distinctive and so clearly fill a role that it doesn't seem real<laugh> because people aren't really like that. So I think it is important to have differentiate your characters for sure, but also to have some of them be similar in certain ways, or, um, I feel like when you're in a writing workshop, you often get, um, clocked by, you know, your fellow classmates or your professors for, um, having characters behave out of character. But in order to have characters feel real, they can't always be in character<laugh>, you know, because,
Speaker 1:Oh, my
Speaker 2:Such a good people are not like that. Exactly. So, um, as far as like creating an ensemble, you definitely need different types of personalities, different types of desires, but, um, you also need people who are kind of doing the same thing or fill a similar role, but not quite, you know, um, um, in order to make it feel like a real universe. So, um, yeah, like my editor, when she was trying to help me remove some lower, the word count<laugh> of the book, um, she kept like asking me to like combine characters, which I sometimes did in a few instances, or just get rid of mentions of like very one off characters. And I was like, no, I need this to feel like a real universe, you know? Mm. Um, that doesn't seem super, super necessary, but like, it also is in terms of world building.
Speaker 1:Yeah. No, and it's interesting too, because you do give us, I mean, it feels like, yeah, there are really a hundred girls or 50 girls. I don't remember how many we started with originally. Um, but it has that believability that she is surrounded by a lot of trainees who are all wanting the same thing.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And then by book two, now we've like trimmed it way down and kind of have more of this core group. Uh, was there anyone that got cut so to speak that you were really bummed about?
Speaker 2:Of course, um, I outlined the novel a little bit, but in terms of actually writing it, I kind of let things happen as kind of made sense within the story. And I didn't really know exactly who was gonna make it at the end. Mm. Um, but I always did know that you did need someone, you needed one of the cuts to really hurt<laugh> yeah. Or at least a few of them. So, um, yeah, there is someone that Candace becomes very close to who does not make the group by the end of the first book. And I wanted it to feel a little devastating because I wanted it to, um, I wanted it to almost feel like, you know, in a different type of book, it would've probably been like a big adventure. And then right. At the very end, there's a death of like a very loyal friend<laugh>, but it's, but because this is not that kind of book, I kind of did that with, um, getting cut from the final group. And yeah, I definitely felt like there had to be some kind of sacrifice to really, um, bring home the stakes.
Speaker 1:Yeah. No, and I, I mean, I think I know who you're talking about cuz there was one, but it was like, no,
Speaker 2:<laugh><laugh>
Speaker 1:Um, but it's also, again, it's so believable and in reality there are so many people trying to make it into these idle groups and you set up the, the premise from the beginning, not everyone's gonna make it. Um, and I think that if you, you know, I think there's a temptation as a writer to tie everything into a neat bow and like all of your favorite characters are happy by the end. Um<laugh> but of course we know that that can't always be the truth.
Speaker 2:Right. And I think that would make, you know, a lot of readers happy in the short term, but, um, I also just don't think that like, you know, for a story to really be memorable, it really needs to play on all of your emotions. Yeah. Um, good and bad. And like, it's funny because, um, I think a lot of times both professional and just like online reviews on good reads or Amazon are often about how the reader, how much the author sort of fulfilled the reader's desires, which is completely valid and like a totally like natural and good way to assess a story. But, um, I do think making everything really happy and satisfying in the end might boost your average star rating in the short term, but I don't think people will remember or be as invested in a story that way
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm<affirmative>, you know, and it's interesting too, just in thinking about it, I feel like that that character, um, that I was sad that didn't make it at the end of book one. Um, I remember her more than I remember some of the girls that then played a larger role in book two. Yes. And I think probably part of that is because there was that sadness, that moment of like, oh, but I really care here.
Speaker 2:Right. Right. So by the end of the first book, like, um, you know, there is like all this suspense or I was kind of building for most of the book towards who's gonna make it, but mm-hmm<affirmative> by the end, it almost is irrelevant. It's almost just like, who did Candace become close to and who did Candace really learn from? And it's interesting because, um, that final spot in the group comes down to someone that like Candace loved all along and then another person who she's just starting to love<laugh>. Yeah. Yeah. And, um, but like, even at that point, she's like very, very like clear on who she would rather have make it, but, you know, um, I feel like that happens all the time in life. You're just like, oh, if I'm ever separated from this friend, um, it'll be the end of my life. But then like when you do move on to another chapter, you're just like, oh my gosh, these people, I didn't even think about as much suddenly became the most important person in my life, so. Right. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Right. Yeah. No, but it does, it has that kind of element of found family to it.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And you know, I'm always fascinated by this and this definitely applies to your books too, but you know how there's like a pretty minor character in one book, but then in the next book you realize what they were thinking and that there was so much more to them that you ever, you didn't even know to be curious about them. Mm-hmm<affirmative> until like another volume or the next chapter<laugh> I love that feeling because I feel like that just mirrors what happens in real life.
Speaker 1:Yes. No, it really does. And how many times, you know, someone like quote unquote, know them or acquaintances for years, and then one day you sit down and have like an actual conversation and you're like, wow, you are not at all who I thought you were and that's mind blowing when that happens.
Speaker 2:Exactly. Or you, um, for whatever reason are just less interested or curious about a person. Um, why, because you're more distracted by these people who forever reason for whatever reason are shinier to you mm-hmm<affirmative> but then you realize actually like that person was the biggest deal to me all along<laugh>
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, no, you're so right. And it does happen in real life and I I've never thought about it, but when that happens in books yeah. There's kinda a, a special moment to it.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 1:All right. I wanna change topics a little bit because one thing that I was so impressed by is that you write actual song lyrics<laugh>, um, which like, I feel like you didn't have to do, like, it would've been easy for a writer to just be like, and then they sang a very popular song. That was number one on all the billboard charts or whatever. Like, you wouldn't have to put the lyrics in, but I love that you did<laugh> and I don't know if you know this, but your audiobook narrator actually sings, which I like. That's incredible.<laugh>
Speaker 2:Yes. Uh, joy OS Mansky. I love her. Um, she actually does voices for Duncanville and is in CW star girl. Um, but yeah, like when I was writing the lyrics, um, I definitely didn't write them to actual tunes in my head. I actually just kind of figured, okay. So these lyrics were all in English, but I almost considered them having been translated from Korean. So I didn't really worry about them rhyming too well, or them like sounding good as like lyrics<laugh> or sounding lyrical. I just wanted to get like the content of the songs and kind of like the metaphors in there. And I often think that like translated songs, not really, not just in Korean, but in general are really funny sometimes<laugh><laugh> so, um, I definitely really wanted them to feel like translated lyrics, um, because I'm not a hundred percent fluent in Korean by any means. So like whenever I looked up the lyrics to, um, K-pop songs, like they'd always be translated and be like, huh. So I got very familiar with that tone. So I just wanted to, um, replicate that too. Um, but yeah, like it definitely mattered more to me what the songs were kind of about because, um, in both books, um, sometimes the song lyrics are just for fun. It's just like, oh, this is a silly fun song. Um, but other times, like, especially when Candace writes a song, I want the song to be almost more what she's really thinking even than what she's putting into the narration. Mm-hmm<affirmative> because I feel like that's often what happens with, um, creative work, but actually like that's what I feel like happens with like nonverbal creative work. Like even though you and I are writers, I feel like there are sometimes like more, sometimes like other forms of creativity, like really get at people's like feelings more directly, like an image or like a song or something like that. Like the below the verbal<laugh>, um, kind of machinations that we put around our feelings and thoughts. So I definitely wanted that to be kind of the purpose of some of the song lyrics too. Like, um, reveal things that even Candace doesn't know she's feeling.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Did you have any background in songwriting or poetry or was this like a new challenge for you?
Speaker 2:No, not at all. This was a definitely a new challenge. Um, and like you said, um, I give the audio, but narrator joys, Mansky a lot of credit because like she actually made them sound like songs. I don't think they naturally sounded like them the way I wrote them.
Speaker 1:That is part of the, like the one, cuz I am not a songwriter edit by any means, but long, long, long time ago I wrote a story actually, a fan fiction back when I wrote fanfic, um, that had a song and I actually had to write the song lyrics and it was like, you know, it was a fun little exercise. And then one of my best friends who is a songwriter, took it and put it to music and suddenly it was like, oh wow. I actually wrote a song.<laugh> totally different.
Speaker 2:That's awesome.
Speaker 1:No, I, I really love that. And I was impressed and I feel like they, the songs in here, like I, I totally know what you're saying, where they just have that, that feel of being kind of poppy. Um, but not in like a, a silly way and having that tra yeah, I get it. I know exactly what you're saying and I'm like, I can hear that<laugh>
Speaker 2:Right. Right. And even like the songs that are written by the company<laugh>, um, the K the K-pop company that they're all part of, like that kind of goes to sh it, I wanted them to convey like what image that the company wanted to yeah. Portray for the girls, you know, um, rather than what they portray for themselves.
Speaker 1:Yeah. No, it's, it's kind of meta, but I think you nailed it. I love that.
Speaker 2:No, thank you.
Speaker 1:Um, so one last thing that I wanna touch on before we move on to our, uh, bonus round mm-hmm<affirmative>, is that the, the second book, one of the big themes that it goes into, um, is kind of this public criticism of mm-hmm<affirmative> celebrities. Um, yeah. Which, which can very quickly turn into cyber bullying. Yeah. Um, and it's like on one hand, these two books, they're, they're relatively, you know, bright, pretty fun contemporary books. Um, but in reading some of the moments in book two, I felt so personally devastated, like right along with Candace, I just like, people are so mean, why are they doing this to this poor girl?<laugh> um, and of course I think part of that is because it happens in reality. And I think that we have experienced some version of this, um, and we know what that feels like. Um, yeah. You know, to be judged in a way that is totally unfair sometimes. Yeah. Um, so for you, like, why did you feel like this theme was important for the story?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so, um, in both books, I definitely want to, wanted to show both the power and the potential for destruction that like social media and also just like public commentary has in general. And, um, in a way it's like the most powerful force for good in both books, because, um, it, part of what makes, um, part of what, like helps Candace through a lot of the toughest parts and kind of helps Candace rise up against some very powerful forces is a lot of people coming together, online in her support. Hmm. Um, but I also just wanted to show that there's always a double edge sword<laugh> and when it comes to kind of other people's opinions, um, for both good and bad, and, you know, there's that old saying, you can't accept the good without also accepting the criticism. Um, but also maybe it's like better to not rely on either<laugh> for your own self worth. So that is definitely something I wanted to convey. And it's also just a perspective that I think evolved over my life and also evolved between the time that it took to, um, write books one and books and book two, because, um, you know, in a way when I was working at entertainment weekly, I really did not put myself in the shoes of the creator as much, even though I knew I eventually wanted to become one. I was like very much like sympathetic to the, you know, the experience of the audience or the critic, you know? Um, so I would often, I mean, I think I was like very, very nice, um, to creators because I was like, I do wanna become you one day, but even so I wasn't, didn't think of it as deeply as I would have if I had already been published for my own book by then, if that makes sense. Yeah. Like, um, for instance, like reviewing a review, I mean, a debut novel, like I was always ESP. I was always especially careful with that. And um, if I didn't like a debut novel, I'd be like, you know, we almost don't need to run this review. There's no real benefit<laugh> so mm-hmm<affirmative>, I would often just skip it, but like, you know, there were times when I look back on like things that I said, and I was like, oh gosh, I don't think I really, really thought of the consequences of that. Like this probably ruined some creators like day or week or like, um, this person probably felt really unseen or unheard<laugh>. So, um, in a way it's better that I didn't really know back then or otherwise I might have like frozen before doing anything or making any decision<laugh>. Um, but actually once I put out book one, I was really shocked by how afraid I got of criticism, because like I said, I was so embedded in the publishing and media industries that I really just thought I knew how it worked. And I was just like, okay, if you get a bad review or if you don't get included in this Roundup, it's really not a big deal. Um, I knew firsthand how her arbitrary those decision and I personal those decisions can be, but even knowing that I've really caught myself off guard on how sensitive I could be towards criticism, especially just that lack of control. Yeah. Because once your book is out there, like they call it a book release for a reason cuz you release it. Right.<laugh> but um, I found, especially my, my book came out in September, 2020 and I was basically done with all the, um, edits and everything in like April, 2020. So there was like a long period of time that coincided with the beginning of the pandemic where like, all I had to do was wait for the book and like the gales and the arts were already out there and I felt so vulnerable and I didn't even have like the distractions of everyday life. I was just alone in my New York studio apartment<laugh> with my thoughts and my anxieties. And like just like a lot of things I thought I'd be able to control like, Ooh, I'll be able to do in person events and be able to talk to people about my book. But then instead there was like almost no platform or nothing to do, except for just like, wait and I don't know why, but I'm usually not a big social media person, but I did spend more time than usual on Twitter. And I think a lot of people were, um, because of the times and not having as much to do. And I just like remember being so scared because I saw around that time, maybe it was just because I was paying more attention, but I just saw a lot of authors, including debut authors get really, really just like destroyed on social media for reasons that I felt like were not didn't really have anything to do with like their intentions or their work<laugh> mm-hmm<affirmative> and I just got so scared because I'm like, Ooh, like I don't think my book was, is very controversial, but I took some swings there, you know<laugh> um, so I got felt very vulnerable and I was very afraid, not afraid of people not liking the book, but like saying you shouldn't have written this or like you did harm by writing this. And like, I didn't think I did that whatsoever, but from what I saw on Twitter, I saw so many people getting dragged for that kind of thing. And for re and it didn't always seem fair or true<laugh> yeah. Um, but I just saw so much of it happen, so I just got very paranoid and like, it's scary because I think a month before your first book comes out is a very exciting, but also very vulnerable time because you have so much writing on this release you're and it's the culmination of like your lifelong dream, but also something kind of goes wrong or you lose control of your own kind of narrative or your own story. And I'm not even talking about the story in the novel, just like the story of like your life and career<laugh> as a writer mm-hmm<affirmative> yeah. Um, that is extremely painful and like, it can, it also feels like everything that happens then can affect your ability to sell books in the future<laugh> yeah. Or sell ideas in the future. So it's a weird time because you don't have anything to fall back on yet, yet everything to lose. So I was just like, okay, I almost wanted to like get past that last month. Um, I almost wanted to like knock myself out, you know, I was like, if I could take a pill and wait, we have when it's over. Exactly. But then right at that moment where I was like, okay, I think we're in the clear about a month before publication. I did get that kind of reaction from one person online who did not read the book at all, but read one excerpted chapter that I put up online and isolated three work phrases from that one chapter in completely out of context ways. But this one person was a journalist who had a lot of followers. And then that tweet got retweeted by a different journalist with even more followers. And I was just horrified like only about 600 people retweeted or liked it. But to me, that was by far the biggest reaction I've gotten, got to my book. Yeah. Um, because only my publisher and just like a very handful of people outside of my publisher I'd read at that point. So I was just like, oh no, this thing that I was like, kind of dreading, but thinking would not possibly happen to me. It felt like it was happening<laugh> so I was like, oh no. Oh no. So I was like, I have books. I wanna write even more in the future that I care about. Even more than this one, I actually said no, or canceled some like interview opportunities because I was just like, oh no, like this is the biggest reaction I've gotten so far. That means like, everyone's gonna feel this way about my book. They're gonna think I did something wrong or something I didn't intend. But then, um, once the, so I just made my life miserable for like the last, that last month instead of being happy. But then when the book came out, no one actually who read the book or no one else, even who had heard of the book had that same thought<laugh> so mm-hmm<affirmative> it was a complete outlier, but like it played an outsized role in my mind.<laugh> yeah. Yeah. Um, so I actually put that into the second book a little bit, just like to, to show like how, um, I don't know, like there actually are consequences to like what you say about someone who's putting something out, putting themselves out there in any way. It doesn't even have to be strictly creative, but anyone who's trying to do something is opening themselves up to public criticism. So like, I think it's important to build up your immunity to that kind of thing and really thicken your own skin. And that's something that's work I really had to do. But I also just think that like, there is a role that each of us has to do as like, um, audience members and potential critics to realize that like creators are not all kind of in a privileged situation.<laugh> like actually they feel like kind of at your, at the audience's mercy, especially at certain parts of their career. And also, um, I also think there should be a little bit more forgiveness mm-hmm<affirmative> in terms of like creative decisions, um, because sure there are creative decisions that are harmful all the time, but, um, and I do think that like, people should apologize for those and try to do better in the future. But like I have found that like online social media is not a forgiving place and there's no room for making mistakes and I, it's almost better for, um, you know, authors like you, or even at me or me at this point who have already kind of gone through that gauntlet. Um, when we did<laugh> because I feel like it's almost, I don't know. Sometimes when I think of people who really grew up completely on social media, I'm like, they, there must be a way in which they equate making bold decisions creatively with getting torn down. So I do worry about that for people. And I put that into Candace's, um, story in the second book, because she does want to do something extra, but anytime you do, you are opening yourself up to extra criticism. So she definitely becomes the target of that. But I also wanna show that like, even as terrifying and kind of horrifying as that situation is it's sometimes worth it anyway.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. No. Well, thank you for speaking candidly, because I, I mean, I know myself and so many authors who have, you know, felt very vulnerable at different points. You have felt attacked for different reasons. Right?<laugh> and sometimes you feel like you can't even like, say anything, like, I can't say anything to defend myself here or will that just make it even worse and it's, I mean, it can get just really tricky. Um, and I don't know, I'd love to say that, like, you know, at some point you reach a point in your career where you're just not scared of that anymore, but I'm not there. Like I, right. I, I dread that I could have something in one of my books that is offensive or hurtful or causes pain or, and it's like, that is of course the exact opposite of what I am trying to achieve and what I want to happen. Um, but you don't know, I mean, mistakes happen and it's yeah. It's one of those things is constantly like there in the back of your mind as a creator.
Speaker 2:Exactly. And I, and what I really learned from my experience was that some of that criticism is dressed up as like someone with a lot of followers on Twitter, trying to take up for a certain cause or a certain type of representation in media because, um, you know, just to get a slightly more specific, but not too specific about my situation. Um, it, it was specifically about the fact that I wrote from the point of view of a girl. Hmm. And, um, you know, taking these phrases completely out of context, they tried to make me sound like I was kind of, um, leering at young women<laugh>. Um, and I, and like, and it was also, the tone was basically like, this is why, like, men should never write about women, you know, young women and like, gosh, like, um, it was so frustrating because I just didn't want to get involved. I just like watched this happen online on Twitter. And, um, I completely wanted to point out that the individuals who started this whole thing were white<laugh> mm-hmm<affirmative>. And, um, they often, you know, they talked about a lot of important social justice causes that I completely 100% agree with too, but I thought it was interesting that in a way they were trying to silence a Korean American writer<laugh> and scare them, scare me from interesting. Yeah. You know, writing what I wanted to do and also a strong implication in kind of these tweets. And this is something that a lot of, um, authors, um, have written about, um, most notably in my mind, Becky Albert, um, there was an assumption that actually I was straight in this, even though it's completely possible for gay men to write horribly about women. Um, the specific implication was that I was straight<laugh> and also there was also the strong implication that like men and women or boys and girls are inherently different in the way they speak or sound or think. And I was like, I actually don't think that they want to say this, you know, mm-hmm<affirmative> but like, so I, I think if it were now, I would've just said that<laugh> and I would've responded that way, but I was too afraid at that point. And that, yeah. And weirdly, when that happens to you, even though you know that in your heart, that that's not what you were trying to do and that what they're saying is not true. Um, I somehow felt shame anyway. Yeah. You know, I've been there, like, I also gave that experience to Candace. She knows she's not doing what people are accusing her of, but she still feels that shame as if she is. Yeah. Because it feels so public. And like, you know, when people were retweeting, these threads, they were retweeting, retweeting it with like gifts of burning books, you know, and saying like, like this should never be published. Like, I, I will never support anything this person writes, ever forget. And it was really three completely like innocent phrases. Ugh. Um, but then this is the kind of wildest thing. So one of those journalists, um, this was all SubT tweeted, by the way, like, you know, they didn't tag me. So, um, but, um, one of these journalists actually wrote about my book, reviewed it glowingly for a national magazine later. And I was just like, huh, I don't think she even remembers what she said. And like, I don't think she even remembers that she made my life miserable and made me feel like I shouldn't write books<laugh>. And so it made me realize that, like, she didn't actually care about representation. She literally just fired off those tweets just for likes quick likes, because one of the quickest ways to get likes is to stoke up anger, um, or outrage. So I was just like, wow, I can't believe I took that. So personally, when this person actually does like my book and doesn't even remember what she said about it<laugh> before. Oh
Speaker 1:My gosh, that is such a<laugh>.
Speaker 2:It's
Speaker 1:Kinda such a great ending to that story, honestly.
Speaker 2:<laugh> right. And she's interviewed me a bunch of times and covered my book so wonderfully for like, you know, really big publications. And, um, you know, when I've told my friends about that, I'm like, can you believe like this is the, this is the same journalist who made me so miserable. They're like, you should mention that. And I'm like, no, you know what? Like it's really not worth it. And like, yeah, I think now I just know not to take things personally or like take things as truth about me<laugh>
Speaker 1:Right, right. Which is easier said than done sometimes.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Something to keep in mind, I guess. Yeah.
Speaker 2:No, and that's all to say if all, if that thread happened now, I honestly would not think about it. I'd be like, oh, that's only 300 likes and retweets, but at the time it was like, my world was grabbing<laugh>.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. Um, well I was, we didn't really get to talking about voice. Um, but one of the things that I had in my notes for our chat today, um, was gonna be to talk about Candace's voice, because I think you did a fantastic job being in the mind of a teenage girl, going through all of these things, things. Thank you. Um, and of course I had met you by the time that I was reading the books. Uh, so I, I knew you, um, know that you're a guy, but if I hadn't known that, I think I would've just assumed that those were written by a girl. Like there was nothing about it that I, yeah, I think you did so good.
Speaker 2:Oh, thank you. Yeah. And like, you know, um, I I've gotten, like, I really haven't gotten any feedback about this issue since then, but like just like little comments, like, oh, you talked about the fact that like, Candace, like sweats my butt girls don't do that. And I'm like, I do human beings do that.<laugh>
Speaker 1:Oh, that's funny of all the details,
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:We're ladies
Speaker 2:<laugh>.
Speaker 1:Um, okay. Are you ready for our bonus round?
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Plotter or Music or silence?
Speaker 2:Music.
Speaker 1:What is your favorite writing snack or beverage?
Speaker 2:Ooh, um, Laqua LaCroix soda.
Speaker 1:If K-pop revolution had a theme song, what would it be?
Speaker 2:Um, next level by ESBA
Speaker 1:If you were in a K-pop group, what would your position in the band be?
Speaker 2:Ooh, um, Mone
Speaker 1:The, is that the, the young one, right?
Speaker 2:Yes. I'm a youngest sibling and I just feel like I am in all areas of my life.<laugh>
Speaker 1:<laugh> um, who is your ultimate bias and who is your bias breaker?
Speaker 2:Ooh. Okay. If I had to choose one, I would say rose from black pink, my bias breaker. Oh, God. Would either be Irene or SGI from red velvet,
Speaker 1:Um, and kinda switcher. Cause actually I forgot. I wanted to ask, um, and I might edit this out. This is like just my own personal curiosity of, um, so of course throughout the book you're talking about, um, or you bring up a lot of different real life K-pop groups. Yeah. But one is noticeably missing. Yes. You never mentioned BTS. Yes. Um, and of course for me, and like, for so many of us, they are the gateway drug into K-pop. Um, so is SLK supposed to be BTS?
Speaker 2:No. Okay. I'm I'm actually so glad you brought this up because I definitely wish I had like a billboard where I could<laugh> that
Speaker 1:How this come up in like every interview?
Speaker 2:No, but I, I just feel like it's something that I wish I could explain, but like, this was actually a really late in the game change. Um, and it was not my idea. So I did mention boy groups and BTS as often as I do black, pink and other girl groups throughout book one. But at the very last second, my British editor actually says you have to take out all mentions of BTS because I originally had BTS kind of alongside SLK as like the top two groups in the world. Mm-hmm<affirmative>. But, um, my editor was like, no, the fans really won't like the fact that like, there's a group that's equal to, it's a competition<laugh> BTS. And I'm like, oh, come on. It's fictional. I feel like they would just enjoy, you know, imagining a world where there is BTS rather than no BTS<laugh>. But like, she was just like, no, you absolutely have to change this. So then I was like, oh my God, well maybe she knows something I don't. So I agreed. But then she's like, actually let's take out all mentions of boy groups in general. And I was just like, what? Why<laugh> like, I, I, I was like, no, I don't understand that. So, um, but now I wish I either said no to all of her requests or said yes to taking, rid of getting rid of all real boy bands because, um, now it just looks like I just like singled out BTS only to like remove from the world and like that it was just like a case of two kind of conflicting pieces of feedback crossing in kind of bad ways.<laugh>. Yeah. But, um, that's for us, that is one of the things I would love to go back in time and just either stick to my guns with
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.<laugh> well, I, I'm glad, I'm glad that I asked. I'm glad that you, you explained, um, because that does make sense, but I can also, like, I can see both sides. Um, right. I spent a lot of time trying to figure out like, okay, but if there's supposed to be BTS, which one is one J
Speaker 2:<laugh>. Yeah. You know, if, if anything they're really mostly like more similar to big bang aside from like certain problematic aspects. Um, because there's five members and then there's one member that's like definitely the main star, which is more like big bang, whereas in BTS, like, you know, like all the members are equal. Yeah. So, um, I love there are
Speaker 1:Spread out.
Speaker 2:Yes, exactly.<laugh> yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay. Where were we? Um, how do you celebrate an accomplishment?
Speaker 2:Ooh. Um, eating
Speaker 1:<laugh>.
Speaker 2:Oh. Or, or telling my friends. Um, even if like, it's something that I can't, even, if it's accomplishment that I can't talk about, which often happens in our industry as you know, mm-hmm<affirmative> um, I, and like my agent's like, you can't tell anyone. I will tell a bunch of my friends, but I'll just be like, don't, don't put it online.<laugh>
Speaker 1:What advice would you give to help someone be a happier writer?
Speaker 2:Ooh. Um, Finish, um, start your next project. I would say. Mm that's good. Um, yeah, because that's one, I learned the hard way because I took a long sort of break between K-pop confidential and revolution where a lot of, kind of worry about the publication side of things can take over. Mm. Um, so whether you're waiting for responses from agents, or like, you know, you are waiting to see how a book does or anything, it's always best to like, do what you're supposed to do, which is right.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I agree. I think it's, it's a good distraction.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:What book makes you happy?
Speaker 2:Ooh, let's see. Oh, the book a book I read over and over again. It's not a happy book, but I just like feel so seen by it is prepped by Curtis phone.
Speaker 1:Mm good. One a classic.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:What are you working on next?
Speaker 2:Ooh. So this is something I am doing differently than before I am fully absorbed in my, um, current work in progress. Um, it is com it has nothing to do with K-pop. Um, but it does have a lot to do with Korea. It is set in the distant past. It's very, very, very, very loosely based on an actual queen in ancient Korea. Um, but there's more magic in the world and there might be some superhero type powers involved. Oh, cool.<laugh> no, it's funny because like, even though it's said in ancient Korea, when I'm writing, what's going through my mind or what's kind of the soundtrack of this novel is like heavy metal. It's like that kinda book<laugh>, which kind of makes me think of cinder and you know, the lunar Chronicles in a way too.<laugh>
Speaker 1:Far distant in past far flung future
Speaker 2:Magic yet. Heavy metal be metal<laugh>
Speaker 1:Lastly, where can people find you?
Speaker 2:Ooh, you can find me on, um, Instagram at Stephan, which is weird. It's like Stephan with an extra EP in the middle. Why, why
Speaker 1:Does it have an I, this has really thrown me.
Speaker 2:<laugh> I know it's so bad. Like this was the screen name or handle that I used, like ever since I was like in junior high and first getting online. Um, for some reason, no one calls me this in real life either, but I was just like, oh, Stepin is kind of funny because I wanted like a screen name that no one used. And like now I feel like it's so standard to use your actual name, but back then, no one did<laugh>.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Right. And I also didn't like having a lot of numbers in my screen names. So I was just like, no one ever has to in for a reason. So I just chose that initially with Instagram, but now it's mine for real. It used to be that Stephan on Twitter, but now I changed it to Stephan M Lee when I started at entertainment weekly. Um, and it's Stephan M Lee on TikTok as well. Although I don't have any videos yet, but I'm going to post my first TikTok videos soon.<laugh> it's not like I'm, it's not like I'm trying to up anticipation. It's just that, um, I haven't done it yet.<laugh>
Speaker 1:Okay. I can't remember who it was, but when we were at team book, one of the other authors was, was like really touting the benefits of, of, uh, TikTok and why we should all be on it.<laugh> I was like, oh no, not another social media, but
Speaker 2:Who it was Phil stamper.
Speaker 1:Yes. Yes. Amazing
Speaker 2:Was author Goldman
Speaker 1:Voice made some really excellent cases.
Speaker 2:Yes. And you know what, um, at y'all west, I was talking to Adam silver and he was just as like, I forgot the word. What's the word where you're like, really like proselytizing or like, you know, almost like religiously<laugh> spreading the word about like the magic of TikTok for authors. Mm-hmm<affirmative> because Adam, um, he was just talking about how, like, you know, his book, they both died at the end, um, had, has had, and still is having like this sec, amazing, crazy second life due, almost exclusively to TikTok. And I was like, wow. Okay.<laugh>
Speaker 1:That is interesting. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not on TikTok, but I have heard that my book heartless is mm-hmm<affirmative> has like a lot going on on TikTok, like thanks to fans. And I'm like, well, that's awesome, but I'm probably still not gonna join TikTok.
Speaker 2:<laugh> you know what, if that's all happening, if book talk is working for you without you having to work for it, like maybe that's just fine and like
Speaker 1:When right.
Speaker 2:What else people ask for exactly.<laugh>
Speaker 1:Awesome. Stephan, thank you so much for joining me.
Speaker 2:Oh, Marisa. Thank you so much. This was such a dream. And like, I have to say I was so starstruck when I met you at Tampa in Houston, but I played it. Cool. But you made it very easy cuz you were like, you were so personable and like you treated everybody including like, you know, veterans in the ye field and like complete newbies, like me. Exactly the same. So, oh, it was very cool. Well
Speaker 1:Thank you. And it has been such a pleasure to get to know you better. And I look forward to our paths crossing again.
Speaker 2:Yes. Many, many times.
Speaker 1:Awesome readers, definitely check out K-pop confidential and K-pop revolution. They are both out now. Uh, and as you heard, the audio books are fantastic. So if you're an audiobook listener, I highly recommend, of course we encourage you to support your local indie bookstore. If you can, if you don't have a local indie, you can check out our affiliate store at bookshop.org/shop/marisa Meyer. Next week I will be talking with Nova MCBE about her contemporary suspense series calculated and I am extra excited for this interview because we are doing it in person. Nova is local here in the Tacoma Seattle area. So she's gonna come hang out in my office with me and it will be our very first non zoom interview. If you're enjoying these conversations, please subscribe and follow us on Instagram at Marisa Meyer author and at happy writer podcast until next time stay healthy, stay cozy and whatever life throws at you today. I hope that now you are feeling a little bit happier.
