Navigating Tough Career Decisions with Nova McBee - Calculated

Marissa chats with Nova McBee about her young adult suspense series - CALCULATED - as well as why receiving rejections is actually a good thing that will help set you up for success; listening to your intuition, especially when it comes to making difficult career decisions (like possibly turning down an agent's offer of representation in order to hold out for "the one"); how going out and living your life makes you a better writer with plenty of fodder for new ideas; lots of nerding out over fascinating research, plus some great travel resources to help bring your real-world settings to life; the importance of being bored once in a while; and why writing duel timelines into a single narrative is so tricky, plus some tips on how to do it right.

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Transcript

Speaker 1 0:11

Hello, and welcome to the happy writer. This is a podcast that aims to bring readers, more books, to enjoy and to help authors find more joy in their writing. I am your host Marisa Meyer. Thank you so much for joining me today. One thing making me happy this week is that we went to the nursery a couple days ago and URD on a whole bunch of brand new house plants. Uh, and house plants are one of those things where I had a really Rocky relationship with for a long time, like throughout my whole twenties. I couldn't tell you how many house plans I murdered and people would give you ones that, you know, like they have a little lucky bamboo or like the spider plant, and they're like, you can't kill it. And no, I can. Thank you. Uh, so for a long time, I had terrible, terrible luck with house plants. And then here, seven years ago, we get our girls and it became like, you know, what, if I can keep two children alive, I should be able to manage with a couple of house plants. And so I bought myself a couple of house plans and I made a schedule for watering and fertilizing and all the things and low and behold, they have survived and they have flourished. And so I finally decided, okay, I've got this it's time to expand our plant family. So we took the girls and they picked out a bunch of beloved new favorites and we got them all planted up and they are so pretty. And they're scattered now all around the house and they bring me a ton of joy. I don't know what it is about having plants, uh, just around, but it is one of those simple pleasures that every time I look at it, it just brings a little spark of happiness. Of course, I am also so happy to be talking to today's guest. She's an avid traveler who speaks multiple languages and has spent more than half of her life working in Europe, the middle east and Asia. She's the author of calculated a ye suspense series that is currently in development to become a major motion. Picture the series continued with simulated and activated, which came out last month. Please. Welcome Nova. MCee. Hi, thank you. I'm so happy to be here. Thank you so much for joining me. And I am so sorry that we are not in person. I mentioned in my last episode that we were gonna get together in my studio and I was so excited about it. Um, but as you know, my sister-in-law came down with COVID and we just saw her a couple days ago, so we thought it would be better to do it over zoom, boring, boring zoom. But hi, anyway.<laugh>

Speaker 2 3:00

Hi. Yes. So sad not to meet you in person, but I am so happy to be here anyway. And I loved hearing about your plants and hopefully

Speaker 1 3:09

Are you a house plant person?

Speaker 2 3:11

I love plants, but I'm the same with you. And also because I travel a lot, I have to be very choosy on my plants. Mm-hmm<affirmative> but my mom is like one of those master gardeners. And so she also has a nursery and a blueberry farm.

Speaker 1 3:27

Oh,

Speaker 2 3:28

Cool. I can, I can just go over to my mom's house and steal a bunch of plants and which I do. And she gives me a lot of plants and, but I try to keep a lot outside unless they are the really like desert plants that can survive<laugh>

Speaker 1 3:44

Yeah. Yeah. It's nice to have some that you just really don't have to worry about.

Speaker 2 3:50

Yeah, we do have, we do have fake plants as well.

Speaker 1 3:53

<laugh> ah, yes. Right. Which for a busy traveling person, not a bad option,

Speaker 2 3:59

Not a bad idea, but I will say flowers totally make my day. And back, back in my college days at the UDub, the university of Washington and Seattle, I used to work right by the pike place market mm-hmm<affirmative> and it was my job to go get fresh flowers down at the market for where I, I worked at something called Virginia Inn. It's one of, oh

Speaker 1 4:21

Yeah. I love the Virginia Inn. Oh,

Speaker 2 4:23

You do? Oh yeah. Yeah. Cool. So I used to work there because I speak French. Right. So I used to work type. I was one of the, the bartenders on French nights and got to practice with all the locals, which a ton of French speakers used to come. And it was so fun. It felt like I was in a little mini world away from home, but it was my job to go get fresh flowers for all the tables. And I just loved it. Cause you out all the colors and it just brightened up the whole cafe. It was wonder.

Speaker 1 4:52

Yeah. Yeah. I don't do fresh flowers enough, but when we do go to the market, I usually get myself a bouquet. And it is again, like one of those simple pleasures in life that just brightens up everything until they start to die a week later and yes. And then it makes it really sad.

Speaker 2 5:08

Yes. That is so sad. And living in China, there are certain traditions where you're not supposed to give fresh flowers because they're cut off from life. And so you gotta be where like all over the world, things have different meanings. Obviously they sell flowers and gift flowers, but mm-hmm,<affirmative> certain times where you don't

Speaker 1 5:27

Interesting. Interesting. Yeah. That makes sense. Um, alright. Well to start us off today, I would love to hear your author origin story. How did you become a published writer?

Speaker 2 5:42

Wow. That is such a big question.

Speaker 1 5:46

<laugh>

Speaker 2 5:49

Um, you

Speaker 1 5:49

Heard at the beginning,<laugh>

Speaker 2 5:51

Start at the beginning. Well, I was five years old. No, I'm just, yeah. Um, actually I was always creative. I came from a very creative home where my dad, um, you know, his first job was a high school, English and history major. He was always telling stories to my friends, always making up fantasy worlds, super creative dad. Like he was the dad. Who did you know, when you lost your tooth, you had your own tooth very, and you woke up with an elaborate letter from another world.<laugh> where your tooth fair has this. Like it was GLIN, you know, like something like that.<laugh> and they told this whole story about where your tooth was going. Like that's who my dad was really, really super creative. And so, um, I always loved creativity and writing, but I never once thought about being a novelist. I just, I wrote songs. I wrote poems. I wrote in my journal, I would, you know, I even, but looking back, it's so obvious because even my in university or no in high school, they were like, wow, you're a really good writer, but I didn't really know new. I didn't know what that meant at the time. And then in university, all my political papers, I was an international politics, international relations major. They were like, yeah, your stuff is just too creative.<laugh>. And I was like, oh, you know, they're like, yeah, big points for creativity, but this is not analytical enough. Right. Huh. And so looking back, it's so obvious, but I didn't know. I wanted to be in a novelist until I was like 27 or 28 years old. And I was living in China and felt just this prompting, like you are supposed to be a novelist. You're supposed to be writing books. And I just knew it. And um, I started to practice writing books. I started, or I should say stories I PR started practicing and I didn't try to be published at all. I just was like, I, if I'm gonna write books, I really need to learn how to do that. Well, and I practiced a lot of fantasy. I went on university websites and looked at all their master's programs. Like what are they doing for creative writers program would look at all their booklets and all their syllabuses and like pick out what I wanted to do. I went online. I did everything that every blog taught me to do started reading and devouring books. It was like, I put myself through my own, not even just masters, but like, I felt like PhD because I wrote story after story, after story. And I started to do fun things. Like you talked about at your, um, on your keynote in salt lake city, like having fun mm-hmm<affirmative> um, and making sure writing is fun. I used to like write stories for gifts for people. So I would kind of encapsulate an adventure I had with a friend and turn it into a fantasy story. That was, that was a fun idea. Oh, it was so fun and so hilarious. And so we have these like stories between us where we're the main characters and um, but just, you know, that's, it's like a retelling<laugh> of real, real life and it was so fun. And then eventually I, um, I got the idea for calculated and that's my very first novel that I took from idea to fully revised. And it was, it was so cool because I was like, I don't even know if I'm like a contender for the industry, you know, like, am I ready? I don't know. And I had only taken one creative writing course that wasn't from the university. It was like a private program. And I, I emailed the, the mentor guy and I'm like, Hey, can you take a look at this? And he's like, oh my gosh, you're totally ready. You need to query, this is amazing. And then I went to my very first conference and I got like a professional critique on it. And they were like, we think you're the best one at the conference. And I'm like, oh my word

Speaker 1 9:48

<laugh>, that's nice to hear.

Speaker 2 9:50

It was, it was like, but it was, I needed to hear those things cuz I honestly didn't know if I was ready. Mm-hmm<affirmative> and then this other friend was like, no, you should send it to this lady and see if she thinks you're ready because she used to work for random house. And, and I tell you, these are miracles that I remember because I sent it to her kind of like, well, okay, let's just see what she has to say. And then, um, she wrote back, she's like, oh my word, I think this is the best book to cross my desk in five years. And I was like, oh my word.

Speaker 1 10:22

Wow. Yeah.

Speaker 2 10:24

And it was just those moments where I was like, okay, I need to start querying this book. And I think a lot of those words kept me going after all of the rejections started. Mm-hmm<affirmative> so that's um, my, my,

Speaker 1 10:40

Hey, I wanna pause right there because I know there's lots of people listening who think like, you know, but you got this amazing feedback and yet I think it's important to note that you still had to face rejection<laugh> yeah. Like it's just, it's just inevitable.

Speaker 2 10:56

It's inevitable. And it's such an important part of the process when you're entering anything a that you truly believe you're supposed to be in and especially the arts and entertainment world, there's just such competition everywhere. And you look at these agents who are receiving like 10,000 queries. So what is gonna make you stand out? And it's not even just standing out it's like timing or did they have to clients, did they take on something similar? It's not even about if you're good or not. It's just all about, you know, it, it is the right match. It's the timing, it's the vision. And that was, I needed that. Um, to just really, it actually made me more confident. I know that sounds weird because the rejections totally suck and some of them were disappointing. Some of them I, you know, were ready for. And, but I got a lot of great feedback from agents. Actually. I, I actually shouldn't complain at all. I got amazing feedback from agents. Nobody was, um, nobody was like, no one had anything bad to say. Um, and actually more than more than a few agents took the time to say, Hey, if you do these things, um, it will be even stronger than what it is, is now mm-hmm<affirmative> and you know, all of this stuff. And in the midst of that, I did get two offers that I actually turned down because again, it just didn't feel like a match. And that was even more painful than rejections because, you know, after all the rejections, you're like super desperate<laugh> to get an agent and then you it down and you're like, oh no, I made the worst decision in my life, you know? And um, but again, it's like having to hold tight to what you believe you want and your vision and what you want in an agent. And I did. And then I found my agent, Amy Jameson, um, who, I think you met down in salt lake city.

Speaker 1 12:49

Oh yeah, yeah. That's right.

Speaker 2 12:51

Yeah. She's based there now. She, she started her career in New York at, um, Jeno and N NSBE and had just amazing clients and then ended up branching out and starting her own agency. Um, and, and we were just a match, you know, and it took two plus years of rejections. And I have shared this story before, but in the midst of that, I saw, um, an interview with, I don't even know what actor it is. It was a woman, you know, semi-famous not super famous, but she's like, and she was talking about the rejection, um, process. She's like, listen, if you can't handle getting rejected, you will not, you'll never be able to handle success.

Speaker 1 13:34

Hmm.

Speaker 2 13:34

And it just made so much sense. She's like, it, it prepares you for success. And I was like, you know what, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna take that as, as truth. And I'm gonna, you know, say yes, this rejection's good for me. I, I need to learn it well and move forward, you know,

Speaker 1 13:50

Mm-hmm<affirmative> yeah, no, that's such an interesting perspective.

Speaker 2 13:53

Yeah. No,

Speaker 1 13:54

And it makes sense too. Cuz once, you know, with success you have more and more eyes looking at you.

Speaker 2 14:00

Yes. Would, you know, no,

Speaker 1 14:02

Very<inaudible> you open yourself up to the potential for a lot more criticism. Um, yeah. So that, that makes sense.

Speaker 2 14:11

Yeah. Yeah. And that's why, and my next step is learning from people like you actually, because right now I'm just sort of at the beginning of my career and I am now learning, you know, new lessons from when I was a, a query author mm-hmm<affirmative> or writer. So

Speaker 1 14:27

Yeah. And every stage of the journey does come with new challenges, but also new things that are exciting. And you know, I'm, you know, just over 10 years into my career and I'm still, I'm constantly learning new things and experiencing new things and it, it never stops being fun and interesting.

Speaker 2 14:48

That's good. I mean, so far I have had a lot of fun and I'm learning a lot of things and, but I have been on super tight deadlines. So after I finished book three, I finally had a breather

Speaker 1 15:03

<laugh> Uhhuh.

Speaker 2 15:04

Oh yeah. And, and now as, I don't know if anyone knows, but I just announced book four yesterday, its title. So I think my breather is coming to an end is what I'm trying to say.<laugh> and I need to get, go into full speed mode and, and work on book four.

Speaker 1 15:23

Nice. So what is the title? Can you tell us?

Speaker 2 15:25

Yes. So I'll, I'll do it in, in uh, from the beginning. So it's calculated simulated activated and the moment everybody was waiting for liberated,

Speaker 1 15:39

Liberated. Yeah. I love it. I love it.

Speaker 2 15:43

The guesses were hilarious.

Speaker 1 15:45

Oh, I'm sure. I love having people guess what the next title is gonna be

Speaker 2 15:49

<laugh> oh, my word. And almost no one guessed liberated. That's the crazy.

Speaker 1 15:54

Did you have a guest come in that you were like, huh? I think I might be tempted by that.<laugh>

Speaker 2 16:00

No, actually. So I, I had other titles come to me and nobody gets those either.<laugh>

Speaker 1 16:08

Oh, funny. Well, it is hard to title something that you don't actually know what the stores gonna

Speaker 2 16:13

Be.<laugh> exactly.

Speaker 1 16:16

So before we move on to talking about the calculated series, I wanna back up to something that you talked about in your origin story, that at some point you actually turned down offers from two agents mm-hmm<affirmative>, um, which is ballsy. You do not hear that very often. Um, and I would just love to know kind of, what was your thought process there? And like, I think that it would take for someone who, you know, you think of getting an agent there's so much yearning there and can feel like a lot of desperation at times. Like how did you make that very difficult decision?

Speaker 2 16:56

Um, you know, when I started out, I just really had a vision that I wanted to stick to and, you know, I had faith that it would happen if I just kept walking. And so that was, you know, the basis for why I could turn it down, cuz I was like, I'm pretty, I've lived 20 years abroad. And I, I could definitely say I've been a risk taker, um, living in new countries and going places and really seeing if I, you know, that, that, that faith, that nothing is impossible and it can, it can be done. I have that like really hard thing in me where I'm like, no, it, it can be done, whatever it is it can be done. And so I know that's part of who I am, but I will say it, it was so hard<laugh> but it was, it came down to like really listening to the agent and loving both of them. They were awesome people, but yet I just didn't see that they were able to like, their vision was just slightly different than mine mm-hmm<affirmative> and even the different, um, connections that they had or the different personalities or, you know, um, the way we talked about something or it just, you know, that I'm a deep feeler as well. And I know it's like, you shouldn't make all your decisions on feelings, which, which I don't, but I did have the feeling<laugh> mm-hmm<affirmative> that they just weren't right. And so, you know, yes, it's, it's really hard. And, but at the same time, I did have a lot of author friends because actually calculated, um, it was selected for pitch wars, uh, during this process too. And, um, you know, a lot of my friends in pitch wars got agents, but they signed, some of them signed very quickly and the relationship didn't work out and they kind of wished they'd done a little bit more research or something like that, or, you know, and so I'd seen, I was like, I don't wanna, I don't wanna sign with somebody that I'm not truly happy with and then leave them a year later, you know, with no fruit. I was like, I'd rather just wait, I'd rather wait for the one<laugh>. Yeah. And, um, which I'm so glad I did. And you know, everyone's story is different. The, the people that left their agents went on to find great agents right after that. And you know, so everyone there's no right way, I think. But, um, yeah. But yeah, that's, that's how I made that decision. Yeah. Is that clear<laugh>

Speaker 1 19:25

Yeah, no, definitely. And it is, I mean, that's one of those things that you don't hear about. I don't think before getting an agent like it is so common to, for an author to sign with an agent and then for it to not work out. I mean, I know so many writers who are not with the original agent that they signed with and it is, I have no idea what the statistics are, but it really is a surprising amount of people who don't stick with that initial agent. Yeah. Um, so it's like, you just kind of decided I'm just gonna bypass that<laugh>

Speaker 2 19:59

Yeah. I'm gonna bypass that. And somebody, somebody was like, yeah, finding an agent is like getting married cuz I'm like, not exactly, but I get the point,

Speaker 1 20:08

Like there are similarities, there are similarities.

Speaker 2 20:11

Well, I will say my agent and I through, you know, through she's really editorial, which I love. And, um, also because of the, the films we have had to spend so much time with so many things, we developed a great relationship and she's just so savvy that I, I do trust her with everything in, in a similar way that I trust my husband with all the finances and, and all that stuff. I'm like, oh, I just trust you, Amy. Do whatever, do whatever mm-hmm<affirmative>

Speaker 1 20:42

And I, yeah, no. And that is huge in an author agent relationship, like feeling that, you know, they are knowledgeable and that they have your back, that they're your advocate for things. Um, and, and that can be really hard to get from, you know, usually you have what, like a one hour conversation that you're making these decisions on these huge career decisions. Um, so you mentioned, you know, just kind of listening to your intuition, which, uh, I think is huge. And I think sometimes that's all the best information that we have to go on.

Speaker 2 21:16

Yeah. Yeah. It's true. Especially like you, you only talk to them for like an hour or two on the phone and you have to make your decision on who you're gonna sign with. It's it's a, it's a huge, scary

Speaker 1 21:26

Deal. Yeah.

Speaker 2 21:27

And we're designed to listen to our intuition. I feel like it's, it's part of every human I've seen it all around the world.

Speaker 1 21:33

Yeah. And ultimately, I don't think it's ever led me astray.

Speaker 2 21:38

Yeah. Yeah. I can, I can probably agree with that. Yeah. When I haven't listened to it, that's when I've been

Speaker 1 21:45

Lots of times when I didn't listen that I regret.

Speaker 2 21:49

Yes, exactly. So we have now learned our lesson

Speaker 1 21:53

Hopefully. Right, right. We try<laugh> um, on that, would you please tell listeners about the calculated series?

Speaker 2 22:03

Okay. Wow. There is so much to say this series has gotten progressively deeper and more exciting and more intense as it goes along. And which is great, cuz you know, Marisa, you and I were talking about that before. That's exactly what we want for our books. Yes. Um, so calculated was sort of pitched as a count of Monte Christo meets mission impossible type story. It's kind of like an origin story. It's super intense. We find out who Josephine rivers is. She's a math prodigy that was wrongly taken, um, because of what her gift can do. So she's taken by super bad guys, um, and ends up in Shanghai in China. And so she has to not only find a way to escape, but there's multiple conflicts along the way. And 11, a love interest along the way. And other people she has to come against along the way. And she has to learn lessons and, and write her wrongs. Then it leads into simulated, which kind of is semi set up in, in calculated. Um, which then I, I would say gets even more admission, impossible, cuz there's more teamwork going on. There's a lot more romantic tension in the rest of the series. Um, and the series is international and you could cut me off at any time. Cause

Speaker 1 23:29

<laugh> no keep going.<laugh> what do you want people to know?

Speaker 2 23:32

Yeah, no, the, because I've lived abroad for 20 years. I, I can't not do international. I have I a I've grown up here in the us with um, you know, my mom is Finn. She has a dual citizenship to Finland. So we had Finn people living with us regularly throughout our life and also people from France and Germany and Asia. Um, so I've always like grown up in an international environment with other languages. Then I ended up living abroad as a teen. So that is my life. So that seeps into every book. So book ones in China, book twos, I Tunisia book three's in Finland and book four, I cannot say yet, but that was

Speaker 1 24:13

Gonna be one of my questions

Speaker 2 24:15

<laugh> oh, I know everybody's asking and trying to get again

Speaker 1 24:18

A very, where do we get to travel to next?

Speaker 2 24:22

And that is the one fun thing about reviews. Right? I don't always read my reviews, but I do read the, um, pre reviews and there are so many like, ah, I feel like I'm there with her, ah, look at this. I wish I wanna go here now. And that makes me so happy. And then people from those cultures being like, Ugh, wow, you did such a great job. Or like just hearing that people want to travel to those places. Cuz traveling is such a big part of my life. Um, and just knowing it's like I have spent time in those not necessarily Dungeness places and calculated, but I've spent time in, in Chinese homes, I've eaten all those things. I've talked to all those things, you know, I've lived life with them and it's like simulated I've I've lived. Um, I've worked with north Africans. I've lived in the middle east. I'm very familiar with the culture and the language and then obviously I've lived in Finland too. And um, so yeah, I just, oh say I'm I'm going on a tangent<laugh> well

Speaker 1 25:25

That actually, I mean that's a perfect um, step into the first thing I wanted to talk about is because I also have written a series that takes place in different parts of the world. Um, although I had the freedom of getting to make up a lot more stuff, setting it in the future. Um, but I love that as a reader or as it was just like a consumer of media, I love to travel. I am fascinated by different places in the world, history, cultures, traditions. I just love all that. And so I'm always really happy when a book not only is set in a place that I'm not familiar with, but where the setting really comes to life. And it's just full of this delicious lush detail that you feel like you were walking these streets, you feel like you were eating this food mm-hmm<affirmative> so go ahead and take me through, um, your, your process or tips and tricks for bringing a setting to life. Like what do you do or what do you think about

Speaker 2 26:29

That's? I mean, that's kind of hard too, because I have lived those things

Speaker 1 26:34

Lucky<laugh>

Speaker 2 26:35

I have drawn a lot, a lot from personal experience and you know, especially with book one with, with China, it's like, I know what that smells like. I know what that sounds like. And so you have the advantage. I actually wrote the book while I was still in China as well. Mm. Um, with Tunisia that was different because I was here in the states and, but I was talking to friends who had lived in Tunisia. I was talking to different Arab friends, um, and people on the ground. And it was so amazing to go back and forth with them and, and just, okay, walk me down this street, walk me in this house and like just doing a ton of research. Um, and just looking at the pictures and just, you ha as a writer, you know, this half of it's in your head, you have to sit there and you have to put yourself in the scene and immerse yourself in the scene. And just like, you literally have to smell the flowers on the street when you're walking by and, um, smell the food and like feel the sand in your fingers. And when you're, you know, cuz Tunisia is one of the most dreamy settings ever. Like I, we need to do like a huge major writer's retreat. There takes place in the capital of tuna, but then it takes us to the Sahara where they have these like luxury tents set up in the desert Oasis. And oh my gosh, I researched those. And I'm like, I am going there forever. I wanna live there.<laugh> it was incredible. So obviously research takes, I mean a lot. So although I lived in Finland, I did not go to the Arctic circle while I was there. So I had to, um, I had to talk to some of my finished friends and some of my other friends that lived in the Arctic circle that are Danish actually. Cause they lived in Denmark too, but they had like four years in the Arctic circle. So I had to run by all the facts, you know, what, what that environment would be. And so to really immerse the themself in that setting and then with Helsinki again, it was okay. I haven't lived there since I was a teen. So going back to my finished friends and saying, okay, what's new in Helsinki. Like talk to me. And, and it was fun. I, for me, I love doing the research with personal friends, but that's not always possible. So you can find a lot online, there's travel blogs that can take you on those streets really. And they're really well done that they can walk you through all the sites and sounds, and smells and their own experiences. And, and so yes, it can be done even if you've never traveled there.

Speaker 1 29:08

Yeah. How much do you like plan out the story? Like, okay, we're going to this location and we have to whatever, go to a restaurant or blah, blah, blah. And then you're like, now I'm gonna go research restaurants versus, um, you know, just doing the research and learning as much as you can. And then like, oh, I, I heard about this really cool restaurant. I'm gonna find a way to include it in the story.

Speaker 2 29:36

Um, I would say that it might be different scene by scene because it, it depends on what I want to accomplish in the scene. Right. Um, so in calculated, um, they go to a place called lucky noodles<laugh> and I've been to hundreds of those kinds of little noodle noodle shops. Mm. And so I, you know, again, drawing on, like I knew I wanted them to have this, this date in this, in this noodle shop. So I didn't really need to do any research at all. Um, but with Finland, for example, I actually needed to research really fancy food. Um, so then I started to research all these fancy restaurants in, in the Helsinki area and what foods they were, you know, doing right now. Then I had to ask my friend who, um, started to talk about all the food they serve in like, like during a government parliament, um, kind of banquet. And so I had to compare. And so I, I got to use some of this restaurant and some of this other information to put it into my own setting in, in book three. And that was really, really fun. I'd say, I'd do a mix of everything mm-hmm<affirmative> um, and, and it's fun to just even create a scene and then go in and find what's actually there and making sure everything is real is a good thing. Right.<laugh> yeah. So confirming it in different ways through articles and different restaurants. That's, that's been fun. Yeah.

Speaker 1 31:11

Well research and food, it's like pretty much my two favorite things. So<laugh>, that does not sound like a bad way to spend an afternoon.<laugh>

Speaker 2 31:18

Well, I will say my research for simulated and activated, not on the food side, but on the science side was mind blowing. I totally came alive in new ways, learning about fractals, which is, has you don't have to be a math prodigy or even a prodigy cuz in book two and book three, there are lots of other prodigy that come on the scene, mysterious ones, good ones. And you know, all this, all this other kind of mysteriousness<laugh>. Um, but um, the research was incredible. It was so powerful. It blew me away. I recommend everyone after they read it. They're like, oh my gosh, that's so beautiful. I'm like, and it's real. That's the cool part, go read about it. You will be mind blown. I don't wanna give any spoilers away. But then in book three, a lot of it is like the science of light and the auroras. And I literally got to talk to satellite experts, NASA experts, um, rocket testing experts. Um, research has been one of my favorite things of the series because I'm not a math prodigy and I'm not a scientist. And I, I got smarter writing these books for sure. I know a ton more that I never knew before. And then just being hooked up with amazing people in those industries, like for book two, there's a hacker. And I got to talk to one of the top hackers in the world that used to work for the Pentagon<laugh>

Speaker 1 32:49

Oh wow.

Speaker 2 32:50

I know. And he worked for the, the good hacker they're called white hackers. Right?<laugh> I didn't talk to the, the underground sketchy ones.<laugh> no, it was so amazing. And so he got to check all my tech and see if everything was correct. So it's like you said, research is one of your favorite things. This series research was one of, it's one of the biggest gifts for me. I'm like, because of these books, I got to learn all of this other stuff that who knows if I ever would've researched it otherwise.

Speaker 1 33:20

Yeah, no, you know, I, we get asked a lot, like how do you, if you have lots of ideas for a story that you wanna write, how do you choose which one to focus on? And this is like one of my top ways of deciding what I wanna work on next is, well, what do I feel like researching right now?<laugh> you know, and it's, I love it. I love learning new things. And I love when you come across like that perfect, fascinating detail that makes something in your story just come alive.

Speaker 2 33:52

Yes, yes, no, exactly. And that was the, the rabbit trails for me and simulated were, you know, these fractals, this scientist, um, Ben, Juan Mandel brought, discovered that there was pat an infinite patterns in nature that showed even in things that looked like chaos, there was calculation mm-hmm

Speaker 1 34:13

<affirmative> and I was like,

Speaker 2 34:14

Hello?

Speaker 1 34:15

That is so cool.

Speaker 2 34:16

Perfect for my book.

Speaker 1 34:18

Yeah. There's

Speaker 2 34:19

Just, Ugh. I I'm like go research, chaos theory guys, go look at infinite patterns in nature that are everywhere all around us. Yeah. And you will just find, wonder after wonder

Speaker 1 34:31

This is like the, um, the, the people who take photographs of snowflakes. Like I am just in awe of those are powerful snowflakes, something so dainty and seemingly simple. And then you put it under a microscope and they are gorgeous and mathematical,

Speaker 2 34:53

They're not that's exactly right. Those are fractals. Yeah. They show infinite pattern in nature. And it's so cool reading about snowflakes. Now I don't wanna get all nerdy because these are action packed books,

Speaker 1 35:07

Right. There is also people trying to kill you.<laugh>

Speaker 2 35:10

People trying to kill you and take over the world and you know, all this stuff. So yes, the, but the nerdy stuff behind the scenes, like they say that a, an author only uses 30% of what they actually research.

Speaker 1 35:22

Oh gosh, I'd be surprised. It was even that much

Speaker 2 35:25

If it was even that much, but it's, it's so important to get those small details. Right. Because then it feels so legit people.

Speaker 1 35:33

Yeah.

Speaker 2 35:33

I have readers being like, I totally trust you.<laugh> you

Speaker 1 35:36

Know, I'm like, yeah, for sure. Plus it just makes our job fun. Like every now and then I meet an author who doesn't enjoy research and I just find that mind boggling, like really you don't, how is that possible?<laugh>

Speaker 2 35:48

Right, right. They should be writing fantasy then.

Speaker 1 35:51

Right, right. Maybe, maybe you are in the wrong genre.<laugh>

Speaker 2 35:55

Yeah. Um, yeah.

Speaker 1 35:57

Uh, well, okay. So speaking of fractals and math and science and research, um, you have this character, do we call her Joe? She goes by lots of different names. Like what's your number one name that you refer to her as

Speaker 2 36:11

Well? Joe Rivers. That's her name through the whole series. Although yes. Book one, um, book one is a crazy setup, right? Cause

Speaker 1 36:20

<laugh> yes. Lots of identities,

Speaker 2 36:22

Multiple identities and, and also a dual timeline, which was, I don't know if you've ever done that, but it was so hard to do.

Speaker 1 36:31

Yes, I can imagine. Um, but let's not talk about that yet.<laugh> OK. Um, because I am fascinated by authors who write really brilliant characters. And so we have Joe who is a math prodigy and sees the world through numbers and equations and you know, mathematics. How did you go about writing her specifically, you know, with just this, this amazing brain that she has?

Speaker 2 37:08

I get asked that a lot and actually after calculated came out, it was hilarious. I got so many messages asking if I was a math prodigy<laugh> um, and I was like, wow, I must have done a good job.<laugh>

Speaker 1 37:22

It does feel very realistic.

Speaker 2 37:25

Um, but that's the genius of who we are as writers. We're creative too. And so we get to take our research and then put our creativity over it. And so it was imagining, I knew she needed to have a really strong gift. And I was like, well, what would that look like? How could she see the world that would give her an edge that no one else had? So as I played with that, I was like, okay, how, how is she gonna see the world? And honestly, I had to do a lot of research in math, in all these mathematical concepts. This sounds so nerdy. I hate to go into

Speaker 1 38:07

Also people are trying to kill her. OK. Go on.<laugh>

Speaker 2 38:10

Also people are trying to kill her. Yes. They want her it's it's really exciting. I swear<laugh> but um, I had to do all this research into like different math, math stuff, and it was so cool. I was, I was at church one day and I really wanted to go home and just write, I didn't wanna talk to anybody new. And I, I felt like this, this new girl came and I was just like, oh, I don't wanna talk to her. But I just really felt like, I just really felt like I should. And I was like, okay, I'm not gonna go home and write like I want to. And I, I ended up sitting down with this, um, new person and she was a math teacher. Mm-hmm<affirmative> and I was so glad that I sat down with her because she started talking to me about differential equations and it like clicked that that was what I needed for Joe Rivers, because it gave her the edge of seeing things in advance and seeing multiple opportunities or possibilities. Sorry, not opportunities, multiple possibilities of what could happen right in front of her. And so I went back and researched differential equations. And from there, all the research that I needed was, was totally put into place. And I could, I could visualize then what her gift looked like. And so I am so thankful that I did not go home early and miss out on that opportunity because that I look at that I'm like, gosh, our choices are, you know, I felt like Joe Rivers was like our choices. There's no coincidence. You know, it's like, right. One choice leads to another, you know? And, and in that moment, it's so cool. It's like just choosing to give up what I wanted and then actually getting what I wanted

Speaker 1 39:58

<laugh> yeah.

Speaker 2 39:59

So that would be no. And

Speaker 1 40:00

It is one of the, the fun things about being writers is that you just never know. You never know what conversation or what article or what movie you watch or what place you travel. You just never know what is going to spark an idea that is gonna change everything

Speaker 2 40:21

That is going to change everything. And that's why we have to again, follow our intuition, right? Yes.

Speaker 1 40:26

Yes. And also live life. I feel like people are always asking, like, what advice do you give to writers? And there's like so many different things you could say. Um, but I do think that one of the top things for writers, no matter where you are on your journey is like to get out, leave your office, sometimes go do stuff, go experience things. Yeah. Cause you just never know

Speaker 2 40:45

You. I totally totally agree. And I'm like, go and live your life. And I have, you know, I've lived all over the world. I've seen so many adventures. I know what it's like to stay in a really sketchy place and to miss my boat and to miss my plane and to be like running on the tarmac and you know, it's just like, we have all and to meet, you know, the swoony characters, you know, in Spain, middle of the night, you know, it's like I have all those adventures. And so I just, I love that part of like being able to, yeah, like you said, get out and live your life and you also

Speaker 1 41:18

Have so much fodder to draw on.

Speaker 2 41:21

Yeah, you do. And also we don't wanna let life slip by either. Right.

Speaker 1 41:25

So, yeah. Right, right. I guess that's also important, like live your life. Not just cuz it makes you a better writer, but<laugh> you only get one. So

Speaker 2 41:34

Yeah.

Speaker 1 41:35

But you

Speaker 2 41:36

Also, I said something, sorry, you also said something in salt lake. That was really cool. You're like, don't forget to be bored once in a while. And that is so, so true. It's it really hit home where you were talking about, if you're not bored, then your subconscious can't tell you all the ideas it's been coming up with. And so I have practiced what you taught<laugh>

Speaker 1 42:01

Oh good.<laugh>

Speaker 2 42:04

And it's so true. Just doing nothing. And then all of a sudden, your brain's like, oh, by the way.

Speaker 1 42:09

Yeah. It's hard. I mean, I am one of those people where I have so many things on my todo list all the time, so many projects to tackle, blah, blah, blah, that I really have to be very conscious about. Like, no, I'm going to take a bath and I'm not gonna read. I'm not gonna, I'm just gonna relax for a minute and let my mind wander. But I really have to like almost schedule it because it's, it's not something that I'm inclined to do otherwise.

Speaker 2 42:35

Okay. I, the bath is like my number one go-to I'm

Speaker 1 42:38

Like I love, yes. I know. I get so many good ideas in the bath.<laugh>

Speaker 2 42:44

Um,

Speaker 1 42:45

Um,

Speaker 2 42:45

Yeah. What were we just talking

Speaker 1 42:47

<laugh> I dunno. I was kinda like being bored. Uh, my girls Delaney in particular, you know, is at this age where sometimes her sister doesn't wanna play with her and she doesn't, she doesn't wanna be by herself. She, she always has to have like stimulation and wants a buddy. And so she gets bored really easily. Um, and so she'll get mom I'm bored. And my go-to response is, oh good. That's healthy for you. And oh, she hates it.<laugh> she hates that response, but I'm like, well, I'm not gonna fix this problem for you. Sorry.<laugh>

Speaker 2 43:21

Yes. Oh my gosh. My parents were the typical like okay, then go vacuum.

Speaker 1 43:26

Yeah. Right. And now if you're not gonna like any of my suggestions. Yeah.<laugh> um, alright. You mentioned that book one has a dual timeline. There's kind of a, a present storyline and there's a past storyline. Uh, and you mentioned that that was really difficult, which I can totally imagine. So how did you kinda tackle that?

Speaker 2 43:51

That is, uh, gosh, let me go back. Okay. That is fun because first of all, like I said, calculated is my first book and I really tortured myself. Um, by doing the dual timeline, it, it took me two years to do. Um, and I think I revised it for another year after that anyway. But, um, originally it was Chron chronological and it was not working. It didn't feel right again, the feeling, it didn't feel right. I, I wasn't enjoying where it started. It wasn't, it didn't get to the places that I needed. And I was like, I know this story is in the wrong place, but it needs all of that information. Mm-hmm<affirmative>. And so I was like, well, where is the most exciting place to start? Well, I can't start in the middle, but I need to start, you know, right. When she kind of gets out of, of, um, where the situation she's in. And um, so then I started there and I started to work back and that was so hard to do because you, for a dual timeline to really work, cuz I've actually read dual timelines that are so like you're only invested in one timeline and the other one mm-hmm,<affirmative> like so boring and you just don't, you don't care, you know, because it's not feeding into the mystery of the present. So you need, you need the answers and the questions to be feeding into each other from past and present and you need to be invested in both. Well, that was really hard to do so. And, and so I, I had it almost all figured out to be honest, where I had all the bones that I needed, but then it, it, you know, was selected for pitch wars. And I don't know if you're familiar with, um, author pin tip Dunn. She was my mentor for pitch wars. And she's like, okay, love this book, but we need to strengthen the timeline. You need to start taking out a few of the answers in this tense and add them to this 10. She's like, and she would, you know, that's why mentors and critique partners and beta readers are so good, especially the ones that are more advanced than you. They really can, you know, she really took the time to sharpen my story and she's like, see, I mean, she didn't do it for me cuz that's pitch worse. She's like, look, you need to do this, go do it. Right. And it was, it was so awesome to learn, well what can I take out? And so that, yes, they're invested in both and answering what are the questions coming up? So I had to wrestle with that until, um, until it fit together like a puzzle. And I will say now that it's being written into a screenplay, um, Anne peacock, who is the screenwriter, she was like, you know, she's like you did all the work for me.<laugh> like, she's like most of the time when we get a book that we, because she's globally known for her book to film adaptations, right. She's done it all. And she's like, when you get a book, usually the screenwriter has to go and do those things herself. She's like, but you did all the work. It's perfectly set up to be executed into a film. And I was, I was thinking, I was like, wow, well, you know, thank God because that took me forever to hard to make your job paid, you know, was just like, that's so good to know. And, and it's yeah, but after that I was like, I don't know if I could ever do it again. Cause it was so hard. Yeah. I have an attempt. You could do it again. I think

Speaker 1 47:28

This, one of the, the wonderful things though, is that once you know that you can do it.

Speaker 2 47:33

Yes.

Speaker 1 47:33

<laugh> like, well you kind, you have that under your belt. You may not want to ever do it again. But there's a sense of, of confidence that comes with it.

Speaker 2 47:40

That's very true. And it's just like hiking a mountains. Like, you know, you can reach the top, but you also know it took a lot of work to do it. Right.

Speaker 1 47:48

<laugh> but do

Speaker 2 47:50

The rewards are great. And so the interesting question, um, with, uh, even the film people when they were like, they hadn't even read simulated yet. And we were kind of talking about the series and, and they were like, Hey, we really see Joe Rivers as somebody that people are gonna wanna follow. And we're thinking franchise stuff here. And I was just like, what in the world?<laugh> um, and so we were kind of talking about they're like, well, how are you gonna fulfill that dual timeline kind of feeling? And I knew for, I knew I had that idea for simulated. I knew it was gonna be simulations for, for book two. And then for book three, I knew it was gonna be these like dreams

Speaker 1 48:34

Mm-hmm

Speaker 2 48:34

<affirmative>. So even though they're not in dual timeline in a way they are, because they, um, have the same feel as you go through, they, they were really, really fun to do. And, and the dreams of book three. Um, oh gosh. Yeah. I, I, I feel like I'm just gonna give spoilers stuff. I keep talking. So

Speaker 1 48:54

<laugh> um, well last question, before we move on to our bonus round, is there anything that you can tell us about book four coming up and actually before you answer that is book four, the finale, or is there more to come?

Speaker 2 49:10

Okay. So book four is the finale for now

Speaker 1 49:19

Those answers before,

Speaker 2 49:20

Right? So the, the film producers actually optioned all four books, they're absolutely in love with the first three. They, they just trusted me for the fourth and optioned it. Um, so I know that for the films, they are planning to do four films now. Great. If, if they are successful, if they get made, you know, Hollywood, we were talking about how fickle Hollywood is. Mm-hmm<affirmative>, um, there's all kinds of things that could happen, you know, celebrate your victories on each step and, and hope that you keep going to the finale itself. Right? Yeah. Um, so for right now, I'm gonna, I'm gonna stop at book four, even though I've already written the end of book four<laugh> and I'm like, oh my gosh, it's so perfect to, uh, to, to keep going. But, um, but

Speaker 1 50:11

At the, to leave yourself a window just in case

Speaker 2 50:14

It's a teeny little window, but the thing is, is I also have other projects that I'm working on right now that I really wanna write. And I can't write them if I'm I'm writing the series. And I know this is the perfect end and I know it is the finale. It is a finale. So if I pick this series up again, it won't be for several years. Mm-hmm<affirmative> so that, that's where I'm at right now.

Speaker 1 50:39

All right. Well, so exciting.

Speaker 2 50:41

Yay. Thank you.

Speaker 1 50:44

All right. Are you ready for our bonus round?

Speaker 2 50:46

Yeah, let's do it.

Speaker 1 50:48

Cake or pie?

Speaker 2 50:51

Pie,

Speaker 1 50:52

Coffee or tea.

Speaker 2 50:55

Ooh, tough. I've lived again all over the world. So it's like, yeah, you gotta have the moment. You have to have to write moments like wine. You can't compare it with the right moment. I'll say coffee. I'll say coffee

Speaker 1 51:09

Writing in the morning or writing at night.

Speaker 2 51:11

Oh, morning. All the way. Total, early bird over here.

Speaker 1 51:16

What is the top song on your writing playlist?

Speaker 2 51:19

Oh my gosh. Right now out. Um, I would probably say something from Justin B oh gosh. His, um, justice album. I played on repeat for a while. Yeah. Only like four songs, but okay. Let's move forward.

Speaker 1 51:41

Is the number one place on your travel bucket list that you have not been to yet?

Speaker 2 51:47

Oh, my word. Okay. Hmm. Now that's not the lightning. I'm not very lightning on this question.

Speaker 1 51:56

<laugh>

Speaker 2 51:57

Um, don't overthink

Speaker 1 51:58

It.

Speaker 2 51:59

Don't overthink it. Okay. I will say Tunisia because while I worked with north Africans and I lived in the middle east, I never actually got to go to Tunisia. So I am dying to go to every place that I wrote about and simulated.

Speaker 1 52:13

Yeah. I'm the same way. Whenever I write about a place, if I haven't been there, I'm just like, I wanna go so

Speaker 2 52:18

Bad. Yes, absolutely.

Speaker 1 52:21

Uh, can you describe a typical writing day?

Speaker 2 52:26

Yes. Okay. I wake up super early. I love waking up when it's still dark and, you know, getting my coffee and tea, having some of my own time. And then I will kind of journal I'm very much like I do a lot of brainstorming in my journal first and I'll kind of map out what I actually want to accomplish in my writing that day and all my dialogues and dreamy daydreamy stuff that goes into the books is all in my journal. So I have to look over that and then I will map out what I wanna accomplish and then I will go for it. And so I'll spend the next two to five hours. I mean, depending on if you know what's going on, but I, I tend to write every day, um, except for the weekends, um, for anywhere from, yeah, like two to four hours a day in between lots of snacks.<laugh> no typical. If I'm outta the house, I'm eating Indian food while I'm writing. Cause I'm obsessed with Curry and I'm obsessed with Chi as well.

Speaker 1 53:36

Nice.

Speaker 2 53:38

Yep.

Speaker 1 53:38

What is your personal mantra?

Speaker 2 53:41

Oh, kind of. I think I said it before where I believe nothing is impossible. You know, I think there's a way to do everything. Um, or to reach your destination, I should say. So

Speaker 1 53:54

What book makes you happy?

Speaker 2 53:58

Hmm. Oh my word. Um, it would be total cop out to say you're lunar Chronicles.

Speaker 1 54:06

<laugh> I think that is a perfectly respectable answer.<laugh>

Speaker 2 54:12

Well, first of all, your books totally made me happy. And when I knew that the calculated series was gonna be four books, I actually was like, you know what, if Marisa's books can get progressively better with four books, so can mine and they've been an inspiration.

Speaker 1 54:32

Oh, well, thank you. I'm so happy to hear that.

Speaker 2 54:34

<laugh>

Speaker 1 54:35

Uh, we talked about this a little bit already, but you may or may not have anything to add. What are you working on next?

Speaker 2 54:43

Ooh, yay. I am working on two secret projects, um, that are being simultaneously written four books and film. And also I am working on a fantasy series that I, I actually started before calculated and that was a long time ago, but I have since revamped them all and I love it. I absolutely love it. I cannot wait for this fantasy series to come out. Um, yeah, and, but that said actually,<laugh> I have two contemporary projects. One is already finished and one is 80% finished that I should be working on that one cuz there's already some interest on those<laugh> so I'm like, there's

Speaker 1 55:29

Always, that should book.

Speaker 2 55:33

But the is like, oh my gosh, like I love world building. And this is, you know, there's, there's kind of two, two parts to the series, the water sphere and the Dawn sphere. And those books are just like so much adventure, so much action, so much depth romance and the world is just so cool. So I wanna get back to those as soon as I finish liberated.

Speaker 1 56:01

Lastly, where can people find you?

Speaker 2 56:05

I am on Instagram. Mostly. I do have a Twitter account. I'm very rarely on it. Um, you can find me on a Facebook account too, and yeah, you can find me on my website. I tend to answer, um, at this point, everything that comes into me<laugh> um, yeah.

Speaker 1 56:28

Nice NOFA. Thank you so much for joining me today. Even if it had to be over zoom.

Speaker 2 56:33

I know next time we'll do it in person for sure.

Speaker 1 56:41

Readers. Be sure to check out the calculated series. The first three books are available. Now of course, we encourage you to support your local indie bookstore. If you can, if you don't have a local indie, you can check out our affiliate store at bookshop.org/shop/marisa Meyer. Next week, I will be talking with nomina Forna about her fantasy series, the Giled ones and the merciless ones. If you're enjoying these conversations, please subscribe and follow us on Instagram at Marisa Meyer author and at happy writer podcast until next time stay healthy, stay cozy and whatever life throws you today. I hope that now you're feeling a little bit happier.