Marissa chats with Namina Forna about her new YA fantasy - THE MERCILESS ONES - as well as the deeper meanings that books can have for readers, and why it is so powerful to feel seen in the stories we read; upping the stakes over the course of a series by delving deeper into the world and its various systems with every book; honoring the importance of female friendships in young adult fiction, and how you can use those relationships as various foils for your protagonist; building your fantasy world on a foundation of reality and research (think you don't enjoy research? Namina shares some ideas to make it more fun); and the many differences we writers can have when it comes to our personal writing process - and yet, miraculously, we all somehow end up with a book in the end!
Books discussed in this episode can be purchased from your local independent bookstore or buy them online from the Happy Writer bookshop.org store (that benefits indie bookstores) at https://bookshop.org/shop/marissameyer
Order The Happy Writer: Get More Ideas, Write More Words, and Find More Joy from First Draft to Publication and Beyond https://bookshop.org/a/11756/9781250362377
Find out more and follow The Happy Writer on social media: https://www.marissameyer.com/podcast/
Marissa chats with Namina Forna about her new YA fantasy - THE MERCILESS ONES - as well as the deeper meanings that books can have for readers, and why it is so powerful to feel seen in the stories we read; upping the stakes over the course of a series by delving deeper into the world and its various systems with every book; honoring the importance of female friendships in young adult fiction, and how you can use those relationships as various foils for your protagonist; building your fantasy world on a foundation of reality and research (think you don't enjoy research? Namina shares some ideas to make it more fun); and the many differences we writers can have when it comes to our personal writing process - and yet, miraculously, we all somehow end up with a book in the end!
Books discussed in this episode can be purchased from your local independent bookstore or buy them online from the Happy Writer bookshop.org store (that benefits indie bookstores) at https://bookshop.org/shop/marissameyer
Order The Happy Writer: Get More Ideas, Write More Words, and Find More Joy from First Draft to Publication and Beyond https://bookshop.org/a/11756/9781250362377
Find out more and follow The Happy Writer on social media: https://www.marissameyer.com/podcast/
Hello, and welcome to the happy writer. This is a podcast that aims to bring readers, more books, to enjoy and to help authors find more joy in their writing. I am your host, Marissa Myer. Thank you for joining me. One thing making me happy this week is that here in a couple days, we are leaving on our first big family road trip. And I am super excited because I loved going on road trips. When I was a kid, they were my favorite type of vacation, and I have very fond memories of them. And here, I guess it was last year, maybe two years ago. I don't know. My husband kind of serendipitously came into a very, very old, very, very used motor home. And so he's kind of been, you know, fixing it up and doing all the maintenance, blah, blah, blah. And so this will be our first time really taking it out on the road and experiencing road tripping in a motor home, uh, heads up because I will be gone for the next two weeks. That means that we will be on break, uh, and both Joanne and I are going to be taking some time off of social media. So the accounts are gonna be a little bit quiet, but we will be back toward the end of June with more lovely authors. Speaking of lovely authors, I am so happy to be talking to today's guest. She is both a novelist and a screenwriter whose debut young adult fantasy. The gilded ones was a New York times. Best seller it's sequel. The Merils ones came out last week. Please. Welcome NOA Forna.
Speaker 2:Hi. Hi.
Speaker 1:Hello and welcome. And congratulations on book two coming out.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much.
Speaker 1:Has it been going well? Do you feel like you're ready to have book two out in the world?
Speaker 2:Um, it's been going really well. I'm so pleased by the reception that it's getting, but of course, like with every book that comes out, like it's like this weird thing of like, I'm excited, but I'm also nervous. Like I've like, it's, I, I have all the feelings right now. Yeah. You just did that yesterday. So like I'm still sort of in that. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. All the feelings. I know. I feel like excited and nervous. Like there it's just the epitome of launch week is like super excited and also so nervous the entire time. So I, I have to admit, I have not finished book two. Um, and the, where I am in this story, things are looking very desperate and scary. Uh, and so I, but they always, I know, I know really you don't pull any punches. The whole series is just like how much worse could it possibly get? Um, so I know we are looking at a trilogy and so I just would love for you to mentally or emotionally prepare me. Should I be ready for a cliff hanger coming up?
Speaker 2:Well, given that it is book two in the trilogy. Yeah. I tried not to do a cliff hanger, but yes, there is one. I tried my best to wrap things up as much as possible.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Couldn't couldn't do it. So I will say it was very well wrapped up for the fact that it is a trilogy.
Speaker 1:Okay. That's fair. That's fair. Um, of course I would be a hypocrite to complain cause I always end things on cliff hangers. Um, but I, you it's like one of those things when you're reading a book and you know, the story's not gonna end. It's like, okay. I, I know I've got a year to wait, so what have I, and then you're like put myself into here
Speaker 2:And then you're like, no.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know. Um, at least I did know that it was a series because, uh, it's the worst when you don't know and you think something's a standalone and oh, it's gonna have a happy resolved ending. And then it totally does not. And oh, that's so devastating when it happens.<laugh>
Speaker 2:So that's why I tried to like finish book one, like on a sort of very definitive note that way I'm like, well, if you wanna, if you really liked it, you can continue further. But if you didn't really like it, you can stop here and you still, you know, sort of get the full yeah.
Speaker 1:That's very considerate of your readers.
Speaker 2:I do try
Speaker 1:Hear about, is little bit about your origin story. What brought you to this place, having your second book out in the world?
Speaker 2:Um, so let's see. That is, that's a big question. How do I distill, okay. I'm gonna try not to warn you guys. All right. Uh, so I grew up in Sierra Leone, west Africa. Um, and I grew up during, at the start of the Sierra union civil war. And I came to America when I was nine. Um, and I, I lived in Georgia. I went to, um, Pelman for undergrad. And while I was at Pelman, I was sort of like looking around, trying to figure out what did I wanna do with my life. And I'd always had all these stories sort of running through my mind. Um, so I was like, I think I'm a writer, you know? Um, and I decided then that I wanted to write and I immediately of course try to write a couple of books. Uh, but I did not get an agent until 2015. I believe it was. And then I sold the Giled ones, um, in 2018. However, like the Giled ones is like a, sort of like a long, like, it's like a long gestating book in that. Like, I actually wrote the first draft. I wrote the first draft in 2012. Um, tried to get it out there, but like the publishing climate was like way different back then. Mm. Um, it was very much like black people don't sell books, like, especially not in ye. Um, and that was like sort of devastating, but I kept trying. Um, and, uh, I knew the time was right for the gilded ones when, um, I was working as a, I was, I was working as a trending writer at the time and I saw like the, um, reception that black Panther was getting, um, the promos for it. And I was like, wait a second. I think the time is now for the gilded ones. So I did like a page, one rewrite, um, wrote this book in a month and a half and sent it off. And basically the day that it went out was the day that we got a preempt. Oh wow. And so, yeah,
Speaker 1:Well the time was definitely right then
Speaker 2:The timing was very, very right. It was just, and I'm really glad I stuck in there because, um, for me, the reason why I truly decided to be a writer was because, you know, I grew up during that not fun time and what kept me going was books. I'd read all the time and I felt safe in the world of the writers that I read. And so that's what I wanted to like, like that's what I, how I knew, um, writing was what I wanted to do, because I wanted to do the, um, offer that same sort of space for other kids across the world.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. Have you had interactions with readers who have had that same kind of, uh, interaction with the story where like, this feels like my safe, happy place?
Speaker 2:Um, well, I will say this, uh, the Giled one trilogy is a brutal trilogy. Um, so I would hesitate to call it a happy place. Yeah. I know.
Speaker 1:Happy is the wrong word. Happy
Speaker 2:Is maybe not the right word.
Speaker 1:Even, even dark books or intense books can still make you happy in a way.
Speaker 2:But I, yeah, what I will say is that I get a lot of, um, DMS from readers all across the world, um, where they say to me, this is the first time I felt seen in a book mm-hmm<affirmative> or this experience in this book, even though it's all fantasy is my experience. You know, like there are a lot of, um, people across the world who feel seen in the pages of this book. And like, that was, that was my intention. And that was the goal. And so like, whenever I get one of those where someone's like, you know, I live in this space, it's not safe. Um, but you allowed me to you, you know, talk about things or see things. It really does make my, just my everything.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, no, that's, that's so powerful and you know, just a credit to books and books can be life changing. And I think sometimes I don't know about you, but sometimes I forget about that and how, how truly powerful stories can be.
Speaker 2:I mean, like for me, that's why, um, that's why I also went to film school was, um, when I was in undergrad, you know, I wrote like my first two books and they didn't go anywhere. So I was like, what can I do? I went to film school. Um, because for me, like, I think that stories hold so much power, you know? Yeah. Um, like people sometimes think that art is frivolous, but art, um, contains the heart of people, you know? Yeah. And what we do as writers, uh, is we inspire people. We give them hope, we give them safe spaces. We allow them to be seen. And like, to me, that is the most important thing in the world, you know?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. No, absolutely. Absolutely. And it really does. It really does change people
Speaker 2:Very much. So.
Speaker 1:Um, so, so you have this book, you had written a draft for way back in 2012.
Speaker 2:Exactly. 10 years ago. It's been a decade. Oh my
Speaker 1:God. Yeah. So it was a long time coming. Mm-hmm<affirmative> at what point did you know it was gonna be a trilogy?
Speaker 2:Um, I always knew it was going to be a trilogy from the minute I got the idea. I knew it was going to be a trilogy because like, so I got the idea while I was an undergrad. I used to have like this, these recurring dreams of like this girl she's walking in, she's in golden armor, walking, slow motion on a Bri field. And then the dream always cuts out. But I knew, like I knew that this girl was something important. And like, during that time I was taking women's studies classes. So I had growing up in Sierra Leone. Like, I didn't understand what, like patriarchy was. I didn't understand like all of this stuff. Like, so when I'd ask people questions, cuz Sierra Leone is extremely patriarchal. And then Atlanta, Georgia, where I grew up is also extremely patriarchal. Right. So like I moved from Sierra Leone to Georgia and I'm seeing these same sort things. Like I moved from one place to purity culture in the next place. And I was like, what is this? And I kept asking people like, why this and not that. And people were always like, you know, why do you always have to ruin things? Cuz I'd always be like, well, why, why, why do girls do this? But boys have to do this and whatever, like I didn't get it. And people always be like, you, like, you just always like, why must you always ask all these questions? Like you just exist to ruin everything.<laugh> like, just let it be. This is how it is. And I really, I really, really hate that when people say it to me, this is how it is. Yeah. Right. Because I'm like, when you say this is how it is, that means you're not doing the digging to see what's actually behind that. Yeah. But when I went to undergrad, I took women's studies classes and that's when I was like, wait a second, this is a system. And because it was a system, I was like, wait a second. I can write about this. Um, and, and I knew was that girl, and I knew I wanted to explain what it meant to live in a patriarchy. What, um, sort of what institutions supported. Like I really like, I wanted to be able to explain in very clear cut and fantastical terms so that the next person who came around, um, like would not have to like ask all these questions of people who just like roll their eyes and be like, this person is being a problem. Mm. Um, but I also knew that like, like the idea of like feminism, gender oppression and all these things, it's not so easily distilled in one book. Right. Cause like the gilded ones is just sort of that surface and then the merciless one goes like deeper. And then the last one, which I still don't know what the name is yet goes even deeper
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm
Speaker 2:<affirmative> so yeah.
Speaker 1:Now, and that does make sense because it is a huge world that you've constructed, you know, it's very complex, the, the mythology behind it, the, the, the political system behind it. Um, as you say, the patriarchy, all of this and yeah. I mean, that's not the sort of thing that gets knocked down and changed over the course of 400 pages. Like it can obviously take more time and that plays perfectly into what I wanted to talk about. Because one thing that I thought was amazing is that, I mean, book one, we have huge stakes and I mean, it's like life after death or, uh,<laugh> life after death.<laugh>, it's, you know, uh, life and death situation after life and death situation. And there's, I mean, just so many things that our main character Deka and, uh, her, this group of women warriors that she becomes a part of, there are so many things that they are fighting against at different points in the story. And yet, somehow book two, the stakes shoot even higher and I'm reading it thinking, but, but where can you go from here? How can it get even any worse than this? And I am really impressed by that. And so I would love to hear you just talk a little bit about conceptualizing this as a series and like, just that, that constant pushing of the story to raise those stakes. But before you answer that, it has occurred to me, but I forgot to ask you what the books are about. And probably we have listeners who are not familiar with the story. So could you please start by first explaining, uh, a little bit about the Giled ones and the merciless ones?
Speaker 2:Sure thing. So, um, the Giled ones, the young adult, uh, feminist fantasy it's said in a deeply patriarchal world called Oterra where they're a group of women who are regarded as demons because they're faster and stronger than regular people. Um, they can resurrect after they die and they bleed gold, but then actual sort of demons start invading this place. And the humans give these girls a choice, fight or die. My main character Deka, uh, decides to fight and in doing so goes on this journey that changes her life. Um, book two finds be having, I can't explain book two without ruining.
Speaker 1:I know. And this is, it's always hard talking about the next books in a series. I understand.
Speaker 2:Um, well, I guess I'll just say this. So book two finds my main character Deka having accomplished many of her goals in book one, um, now sort of like still trying to sort of lead Oterra into like, into like a more equal place, but she sent on this mission that makes her start questioning everything that she thought she knew mm-hmm<affirmative> that was, I think, very non spoil.
Speaker 1:Oh, you did a great job afterwards if you'd like.
Speaker 2:Um, but okay, so now dang it. I forgot the question.
Speaker 1:I know it was a really long winded question. Um, I just, I mean, I think that the, the way that you build the stakes over the course of the series is fantastic. And so I'm really curious how much of it was planned in advance and what is kind of your approach to series building and, and making it so that there's always more suspense, more stakes on and on.
Speaker 2:So I tend to think of a trilogy as like a flower and blue, right. So when we start off, like the flower flower is still sort of pretty much closed off. Right. And then we open it, open it, open it, open it. And that is like how I approach world building mm-hmm<affirmative> um, whereas you only, um, you only get like, Hmm, let me think of it another way. So in film school, one of the things that, uh, my professor said to to us was that when you're writing a short film, a short film is like a taste that allows you to like engage, um, in the world. Um, but then each one becomes like a great, like that allows you to engage in a world, but then you can like get the full sort of meal, um, once you watch the movie or finish the trilogy or whatever, and this is another way that I tend to think of like, books, right? So like book one is a taste, um, where you get enough of the world and enough of the stakes that you understand what's going on, but then book two, I open it up even further. So then you start to like really understand, oh, this is the extent of the world. And, um, this is whatever. And then, um, by book three, I show you what the actual full world is and what the full sort of, um, the full sort of problem that the main character is dealing with E is because like, when you go from book one to book three, like the character's understanding of what they are, um, going through changes mm-hmm<affirmative>, um, and becomes like bigger and bigger and bigger along with their understanding. Um, and so that's how I like to enter, um, my worlds. But the other thing is like for me, the gilded ones trilogy, um, is a three part thesis. Right. So, um, if I can look at it and be like, these are the three parts of my thesis statement, then each book is a different part of the thesis statement. And like the last book sort of ties everything together.
Speaker 1:Mm. So do you, that, that idea of writing it almost like a thesis, are you pulling out like specific, like this is the theme that I really wanna come across in book one, this is the theme and the thing that I really want readers to take away from, in book two
Speaker 2:Very much. So
Speaker 1:Can you tell us, like what to you was like the major thing that you wanted readers to take away? Say from book one?
Speaker 2:So with book one, really, um, I wanted to look at, I wanted to look at a patriarchal system and see how institutions, particularly, particularly religion and government, um, enforce it, but also how regular people, um, sort of enforce it and like how everyday evil is, what sort of attracts you in systems like these. Right. But then book two, I wanted to look at feminism itself. Right. Cause, um, I tend to think that a lot of discussions, like, um, like, like I tend to think that a lot of ideas, um, like about feminism tend to be very simplistic. And like, to me, just as patriarchy is a system feminism too, can be a system and it can be a harmful system if you're not like if it's not intersectional, if you are not like looking at it from all the different angles and seeing how everybody is included, um, in this structure, mm-hmm<affirmative> um, so that's why from book one to book two, it's still like the books, like these books are definitely ex very feminist, but it's always that sort of understanding of let us look at systems. Okay. If we think that this system is gonna work, let's look at it from all angles and see what it looks like.
Speaker 1:So you talked about how the world, um, over the course of the books, it's, it's like a flower opening up and now we get to see a little bit more. Now we get to see a little bit more and how even the characters as they're moving through the story, their perception of things is constantly shifting and changing and things are, are always coming into question. You know, what, what Deka believed on page one is different from what she believes on page 200, which is different from what she believes on page 200 of book two. Yeah. So how much of that did you have planned? Like, do you know what all the big reveals are in advance or is there kind of an exploratory process for you when you're writing?
Speaker 2:Um, I think it's like a solid half and half. Um, because on one hand I write pretty detailed synopsis. Um, and I have like an overarching sort of overview for the trilogy, but there's a lot of feeling in the gap that works, you know, and I think like it's really important to me to always, um, leave room for just serendipity and new understandings, because like my, um, my opinions to let's say even two years ago are, might not be my opinions now, you know, so just as my characters are growing and learning, I too am growing and learning. And that, um, is reflected when I'm writing the book. And also like, um, a lot of times I will discover things literally, um, in, in the writing of the story, like with book two, um, the first draft that I did was actually the wrong draft and I ended up having to get rid of maybe like 150 pages of work mm-hmm<affirmative>, um, you know, cuz I started at the wrong place and then I had, and that was sort of a whole thing of discovery where I had to go back and do this very painful rewrite. And I was like, so ashamed of like the stuff that I'd written, I refused to even show people like my agent was like, I'd love to see it. And I was like, no, you will never see this. You'll never, it will never see the light today
Speaker 1:Doesn't even exist. Don't even think about it. Yeah. Yeah, no, I feel like I have to rewrite. Gosh, I don't know, like every other one of my books there gets to a point where it's like, oh, just scrap all of it and start over. And I keep thinking like at some point I'll I'll, you know, not keep making these mistakes and like that first draft won't be as terrible, but Nope, it doesn't seem to be getting any better.
Speaker 2:Well, here I was hoping that it would get better. And now you've just,
Speaker 1:I'm sorry. So discouraging. I know it does vary by book. I have had books where, you know, that first draft like feels like the right story, but um, I'm a, I'm a revision writer. Big time that first draft is always a mess for me.
Speaker 2:Oh same. Yeah. I find<affirmative> Sam. I find the process of rewriting to be the best. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And also the worst. Yeah. Do you, so you're, you're writing along something reveals itself to you, something that wasn't in your synopsis, you didn't expect it, you didn't plan for it, but you know that it's right. Do you stop right there and go back and fix things or, or go back and, you know, leave some foreshadowing or, or whatever it needs or do you like save that for a later date? Like what's your system?
Speaker 2:Um, so what I immediately do is I, um, go back and I fix my outline. Um, I go back to my outline, I write it in and then I look over my outline to see, um, where I need to like, uh, add where I need to foreshadow or what have you, um, or rewrite my outline. And then I go back to the pages and I do that revision
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm<affirmative>. So I wanna talk about story openings because both books one and book two, the opening chapters are ridiculously intense and they are some of those books that I know these opening chapters are going to stick with me. Um, they're so visual. They're so powerful. They're just really, really great. Like I feel like they, these could be like the examples in a writing class. Like this is how you hook the reader from the beginning right here.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you. That makes me feel really good.
Speaker 1:Yes. Oh my gosh. Um, you are so well,
Speaker 2:Especially considering I rewrote that dog,
Speaker 1:Right? No. And that is so funny because four times it, it feels like such a, a natural start for book too. Um, so I find it, I don't know, kind of surprising, but also not really, um, because I know how writing and revising works. Um, but like, I mean, just talk a little bit about beginnings and how much, uh, rewriting or editing do you do on those stories. Do you feel like the, at least with book one, did you feel like that beginning just kind of like came to you and you knew how it was gonna start or like just, how do you approach the start of a book?
Speaker 2:Beginnings are my Achilles heel. OK.
Speaker 1:Interesting.
Speaker 2:Because I have like a very ridiculous and like just like just extra process. I don't know why I'm like this. It's very, I, so I'm mad at my own self for having this process, but basically what happens with my beginnings is pretty much I will rewrite the first, um, the first 50 pages. Um, it usually takes me like a month to write and rewrite the first 50 pages. Because if I do not feel like the first chap, the first few chapters are perfect, I cannot move on. And when I say, um, I cannot move on it's to the point where like, if a word is out of place, it almost feels like a grain of sand under my heel. And it's like, every time I read, I stop and then I have to restart. And it like, I don't know, I don't know why I'm this way. And so then my poor critique partner, PJ, uh, um, her name is PJ Schweitzer. She's amazing. She writes hon horse Bon Winkel series, go check it out. Very wholesome books. Um, anyway, she, the poor woman has read at least 40 iterations of the first few chapters, but, and once she gives that, like, it's good to go. Um, and once I no longer stop on like a word, cuz it will literally be as Simpli, like as minuscule as the word is just out of place. I can't move on once that is done, then literally it takes me less time to write the rest of the book.
Speaker 1:Interesting.
Speaker 2:Like it's it is, it is the, it is the most ridiculous thing, but like the first 50 pages always takes me way more time to write than the rest of the book, because once that is done, I can just breeze through the rest of the book.
Speaker 1:Huh. I wonder if it's kinda like, like building that foundation, like for you, it's just really important. I just have to have this like this foundation, right? Because the rest of the story has to stand on it. I'm I'm hypothesizing. I, this is not at all. Like my process.
Speaker 2:I also suspect that what is happening is, um, while I'm writing quote unquote, writing these chapters, what I'm really doing is, um, finishing the rest of the story in the back of my head. Mm-hmm<affirmative> so like all the stuff that, any questions or whatever that I have would have worked itself out during this time period, which is why it would be so easy for me to write the rest of the book.
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:No, that makes sense. Um, you know, I have had those books that for whatever reason, they were just like in the back of my head for years in some cases. And I feel like when, if something has been simmering for longer and brewing for longer than when you finally sit down, it's like ready and you don't have to do quite so much back and forth with the story. So it kind of sounds like that's a little bit what you're doing. Like you're focusing on those first 50 pages, but all the while the rest of the story is getting figured out in your head.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Well, if it works, it works
Speaker 2:Well. Like we have somehow made it through two bucks.<laugh> this process.
Speaker 1:Where are you? Um, with book three,
Speaker 2:Uh, I just started it.
Speaker 1:You just started. Okay. Cause I was gonna ask, so
Speaker 2:If I'm in before
Speaker 1:Same process happening,
Speaker 2:I'm in that horror phase where yeah. Oh no, every word is, I'm just like, why can't I be like, why can't I be better? I would really like a different process. Do you have a different process?
Speaker 1:I have a very, yeah, I'm a, I'm kind of a nano Remo model. Like write that first draft as fast as possible and don't go back and read anything until it's done usually is how it goes for me.
Speaker 2:Ah, yeah. Um, I think the other thing, um, though about like this process, um, does it take you more time on the editing end then?
Speaker 1:Oh, so long. Yeah. Revisions take forever.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think that's the difference though. Yeah. Is that I deliver extremely clean first drafts. Mm-hmm<affirmative> um, so, um, knock on wood. Um, usually like, like with this one, um, basically like my second draft was the, was like the sealed draft and then we did the, then we did first pass and we did like one, like the last sort of look over and that was it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. That I don't even know what that would be like<laugh>
Speaker 2:But again, I take a lot of time to think.
Speaker 1:Yeah,
Speaker 2:Yeah. And frustrate everyone along the way.
Speaker 1:<laugh> but this is, I mean, this is one of the reasons why I love talking to other writers is because, you know, there's always some overlap in, in the different ways that we think about things or maybe I do this and we both, you know, we kind of do it this way, blah, blah, blah. And you know, you're different this way, blah, blah, blah. But ultimately we all end up with a book and I love hearing the different ways that people think about process and story and the different methods that we use to bring it together because I just think it's, it's somewhat magical that we can all be so different. And yet we all end up with a book.
Speaker 2:Yes
Speaker 1:<laugh> and I think it's good for, for aspiring writers to hear too. I think there's always this fear that, you know, I, I must be doing it wrong, you know, Marisa does it this way or NOA does it this way. I I'm different. I must be doing it wrong. And I think it's really important for people to hear like, Nope, we all have a different way. And if it works for you, it works.
Speaker 2:And then sometimes we find out that other people have the same process that frustrates you. Cause I was at y'all west. Um, and I forgot who it was that had like my same process. And I looked at her and I gasp
Speaker 1:<laugh>. I was like,
Speaker 2:Oh, I'm not alone.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's fun. Um, okay. Talk to me about world building because it is a huge detailed complex world and not just with the, the, the patriarchy, the politics, the religion, um, the, this huge mythology, this magic system that continues to build and change as we're discovering new things. What is your approach to world building?
Speaker 2:Oh, world building is my favorite<laugh> I love building worlds. Like you are singing magic to my ears. Um, and my process with world building is a lot of research. Um, so I find that for me, the best fantasy, um, rests on a foundation of reality. Right. So when I was writing the gilded ones, um, I knew I wanted a fantastical Africa. Um, and I knew I wanted to write a Africa that, um, I understood from actually growing up there and from actually sort of knowing my history. So I based, um, I based the world Oterra, um, and specifically the capital city Humira, um, on a combination between freestyle Sierra Leone and, um, Benin, Nigeria, um, because like in Benin, Nigeria, once upon a time there were these walls that were like four times, uh, the great wall of China, um, this true fact, um, you know, like it was like an amazing city. Um, once upon a time, like had street lights and like, I think it was like the 14th century or something like that really advanced place. So, um, I built, um, so I used sort of that research, um, to like create this world. Um, but then also like I've always been, um, I've always been a fantasy buff, so like, like literally every sort of, is it be scary besty? I don't know how you pronounce the word, you know, the books that have like compendia of like mythological animals, I've read all of those<laugh>. Um, but also, um, I'm also fascinated with real animals, right? Like blue planet seeds of life, planet earth. I've watched all those documentaries read all, like, read all. So I use all of this stuff, um, to sort of create this world. Um, and the way that I approach world building is like, I always recommend that people watch this. There's a Netflix speculative documentary called alien worlds that I think, um, really shows, um, the like really just beautifully demonstrates how the world build because, um, in each episode, basically what they do is they take, um, a natural sort of law, like maybe win current, right. And they use that one natural law to build an alien world, um, where they're examining how this principle would work in an alien world with alien creatures and all that. And that's sort of the same thing that I do where it's, um, where I take, um, things from my research. And then I use, then I use my research to build upon things. And the other thing is like, I tend to forget my research and that's when I know like it it's ready is like when I forget all the principles, like when I forget all the principles of stuff and all the names of stuff, that's when I know I'm ready to write, because at that point it's been internalized and it's changed into something else. Um, that's usable for me.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm<affirmative> yeah. I was not, or am not familiar with this alien world show and I just wrote it down as you were talking about. And that sounds so fascinating.
Speaker 2:It's only four episodes. I highly recommend it. It just like really, I think really brilliantly encapsulates like world building, like yeah. It's yeah.
Speaker 1:Oh, I'm so excited. I, I like world building, but I also find it very, um, intimidating, like just the sheer amount of stuff that you need to create in a fantasy world. Um, do you feel that way or do you, are you just like gungho and like cool. I get to
Speaker 2:See everything<laugh>. So world building is my favorite part of the process and it's my favorite part of the process because before I ever write anything, like I already know the world, you know, like it, I love creating new and different, like in each of my books, um, in, because in each of like the books that I have planned, it's all different worlds. Like I will always create a new world, like in each new series, um, because I just love exploring and seeing what new systems that I can come up with. This is, this is the joy for me. It's what really makes me happy. And then I feel in like all the characters and all the other stuff, but really it's, um, I enjoy, I enjoy this process and even in the Giled ones, um, um, even in a series, um, I, I expand on the world. So like the world that you understand in the Giled ones will, will be amplified in the Merc lens ones and will be at its height. And we'll be at a type in whatever the third book is. Mm-hmm,<affirmative> the name ones, maybe
Speaker 1:The nameless<laugh>
Speaker 2:I, you joke, but that I joke, but that might be the name<laugh>
Speaker 1:<laugh> I, I kinda like it. Yeah. Um, okay. So I, we obviously on this podcast are all about writers, finding those things in writing that brings them joy and like really tapping into that. Um, so if somebody is listening and they are not quite as fond of world building, is there any tips that you can give them to make it a little bit more fun?
Speaker 2:Yes, very much so. Watch movies and TV shows. Hmm. Right. Like, so one of the things that's my favorite part of the process is when I'm about to write a book, I will start, um, watching a lot of, um, movies and TV shows that are tonally similar to the, um, to the book that I'm writing or that have a world that sort of close to the book that I'm writing. Right. So like for, um, the gilded ones, when I was writing it, um, it was 300 Spartacus blood and sand and attack. Um, and what is it, um, attack on Titan, right. And these, these, um, movies and TV shows and what have you really helped me sort of get a grasp on, um, how I wanted my world and my char, how I wanted my characters to speak, um, how I wanted to like write my set pieces, what I wanted the world to look like. And so if you're having trouble with like world building, just a delightful way to do it, to do that research is to just watch movie, like literally, like, that's my thing. I'll be like, um, I will watch reams of anime and people are like, why are you watching anime? And I'm like, I'm doing research. Thank you very much. This is part of my job. How dare you.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Not that you needed an excuse, but there is your built an excuse.
Speaker 2:<laugh>. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Um, okay. I definitely wanna make time to talk a little bit about our characters and some of the just incredible relationships in this book, because for me, one of my favorite things about this series are the, the just incredible female friendships that are formed, uh, over the course of the story. And, uh, you know, Deka starts out pretty alone, but as we go along, she just forms this, I don't, what would you call them? Just this like, pack around her. And they're so supportive. And I mean, there is a romance and the romance is also great, but for me, like the female friendships are so at the heart of this story. So
Speaker 2:Very much so.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I'd love to hear about, uh, forming these characters and building these relationships and kind of, uh, what was their importance to you or what do you feel is their importance to the story?
Speaker 2:So to me, the important love story in the gilded ones are the platonic relationships. The romantic relationships are not that like their important, but not as much as the platonic ones. And that's why I'm like, it has the hint of romance, but really the romance is between these group of friends, which is how it tends to be like when you are, you know, when you're a teenager, uh, or when you're a preteen, you know, you roll around in packs of your friends, that's what you do. Um, and that is like, those are, you know, some of the most seminal relationships that you will have. And so I really wanted to honor that, um, with these books, which is why, um, for me, um, DA's actual love interest is Brita and bell Callis. Like, so if we're really thinking about, if we're really thinking about it this way, um, her best friend, Bri Brita, um, and then bell Callis. So like they might even be in a love triangle, right.<laugh> like, that's. Yeah. So cuz people are like, oh, it's always a love triangle. I'm like, yeah. Baker, Brita, bell callus. That's actually what it is, you know? Um, and it was interesting because I had actually not planned on Brita. Um, so the first couple, I'll just warn you guys, the first couple of chapters in the build once are extreme, is a big builded ones are extremely traumatic. They, they goes through a lot. Right? Yeah. But then, um, you know, this mysterious woman comes to her and gives her this choice to, you know, escape her circumstances by becoming a warrior. And she says, yes. And so, um, she goes into this woman's wagon and there at the back of the wagon is Brita. I had not planned on Brita being there<laugh> I had not planned on Brita at all, but like, she was just so distinctive and she had such a voice that I was like, huh, there she is. You know, that's, that's the one, that's the one. And like once Brita was there with like everything clicked in the story, you know? Um, but I had always planned on be Calles because to me be Calles was sort of the foil to Deka in that Deka is this girl, um, who so deeply, who is so deeply brainwashed that she believes that she has to basically, um, do all these things just to fit in just to earn her place in society, because that is what she is taught. And that's what girls are taught in this world. And even in our world that like in order for you to have legitimacy in society, you know, you must make yourself small, you must squeeze yourself down, you must do all these things. Right. So that's Deka. Um, when we meet her and for most of the story she truly does in what she's being told about what it means to be a girl and like even will accept harm to herself just to fit in mm-hmm. But then we see bell catalyst who came out the gate like F this, this is wrong. This is stupid. Lets burn it to the ground. And so be Callis was always the foil for DACA. And like, so I think in many ways, like might have actually been the more natural protagonist for this story, except the reason I did not choose be Callis is the protagonist is because I think the reality is that, you know, most of us aren't like as kicking girls who come out like screaming, burned down the patriarchy<laugh> we wish we were like, I wish I was. But the, but the reality is that, you know, I, when I was a teenager, I was a very Tim timid person, um, who internalized most things accepted harm to myself. And when people told me I was wrong, I tended to shut up until I started to realize until I took women's studies classes and I realized it was a system and I realized that, oh, you know, I'm being bamboozled. Mm. Um, and so that's why I chose Deka as a character because I do think she's sort of more, the more honest, um, expression of what it, of what it is to be a girl in a world like this.
Speaker 1:Yeah. She also, I feel has so much farther to grow. Um, and so much more to learn over the course of the story. Like I think that, um, choosing Deka makes for a much more natural character arc in a lot of ways.
Speaker 2:Yes. Yes. Cause she like Deka is so sweet. So like just wants to do good and wants like, you know, wants, she just wants to belong. Like at her core Deka is a person who wants to be part of a family, wants to do good, wants to belong and wants for everybody to be okay. That, that is her core, you know? Yeah. But because of that, like she, um, she falls into this trap of sometimes not being strong enough, like on her own to be like, this is what it is, this is what this is, you know? And that is the, that is sort of the journey for her is like that self-actualization I would say.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Um, and I just adore Brita. I adore.
Speaker 2:I do. I love, I, what I, so what I love about Brita is Brita is a truth teller. Like Brita will say the truth, but she'll say it in such a, in a funny enough way and a kind enough way that you can digest it. Yeah.<laugh> um, you know, and we all need a friend like that. Who's like, I love you what you are up to some like real stupid shenanigans right now, but I'm down. I'll be with you, let's go burn stuff, but you're wrong. You're dead wrong. And
Speaker 1:<laugh> yeah, yeah. No shoes, so great. And they're, the relationships were really, really phenomenal. Um, okay. I have one last question before we move on to our bonus round, uh, I know that you have a background in screenwriting and there is a rumor that you might be working on an adaptation for the Giled wounds film. Can you tell anything about that?
Speaker 2:Um, I can tell you that, uh, I finished the script. Ooh. Um, I can tell you that we are now waiting for other elements to see what happens. I can tell you that hunt Hollywood is a weird and funny place. So, um, I am very excited and hopeful and like, I think we have like a really great team. So I'm excited to see what happens.
Speaker 1:All right. Well, I know that Hollywood is a very weird place. Um, but I am also excited to see what happens. I'll keep my fingers crossed for you.
Speaker 2:Thank. Yeah.
Speaker 1:All right. Are you ready for our bonus round?
Speaker 2:Very much so
Speaker 1:Tea or coffee
Speaker 2:Tea all the way.
Speaker 1:Music or silence,
Speaker 2:Silence,
Speaker 1:Plotter. Or we kind of address this one already, but plotter or
Speaker 2:Split down the middle more towards plotter though.
Speaker 1:Writing in the morning or writing at night
Speaker 2:Riding in the morning. What am I? I<laugh>, I, I go to sleep<laugh> I go to sleep at like nine o'clock. I, I cannot ride in the evenings.
Speaker 1:<laugh> would you rather have a shape shifting pet or the power to control people with your voice?
Speaker 2:Mm I'll take the pet because the other power seems sort of iffy.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Could be easily used for evil.<laugh>
Speaker 2:Yeah. Like I, I believe Jessica Jones addressed to this.
Speaker 1:I loved, I love,
Speaker 2:Well, guess what? There'll be way more exit in book three and oh, good.<laugh> but there will be revelations.
Speaker 1:Ooh. What is the best writing advice you have ever received?
Speaker 2:Um, you don't write in a vacuum, like you're only as good as your critique partners and the people around you. Other writers around you.
Speaker 1:Do you have any writing rituals?
Speaker 2:Mm, typically I wake up early in the morning and write, I like to write first thing in the morning and I like to write in silence and I like to write on my bed.
Speaker 1:What is one small thing that brings you a lot of joy?
Speaker 2:Oh, my PO Cherie NFI. My baby.
Speaker 1:Have you seens like lit up with that?<laugh>
Speaker 2:Yes. Uh, my dog NII short for magnificent. Oh, I have like 20 billion names for this dog.<laugh> but yeah, she makes me very happy. She's over there. Like looking at me right now, like mommy, what's happening. Why aren't you paying attention to me?
Speaker 1:Right. I heard you say my name. I know, you know, I'm here. What book makes you happy?
Speaker 2:Um, Hmm, well, I just read ANECCA and the academy. Um, and I forgot what the end of it is, but like that book made me happy on yak and the academy of the sun.
Speaker 1:What are you working on next?
Speaker 2:Uh, book three right now as we speak.
Speaker 1:And lastly, where can people find you?
Speaker 2:Uh, you can find me on Twitter. Uh, you can find me on all social medias except for Facebook.
Speaker 1:Awesome. Joining me.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for having me. Thank you. Thank you
Speaker 1:Readers. Be sure to check out the Giled ones and the merciless ones, which is available. Now, of course, we encourage you to support your local independent bookstore, but if you don't have a local indie, you can check out our affiliate store at bookshop.org/shop/mesa Meer. As I mentioned before, we will be on break for the next couple of weeks. But when we return, I will be chatting with Hannah. Ornstein about her romantic comedy meant to be mine. If you're enjoying these conversations, please subscribe and follow us on Instagram at Marisa Meyer author and at happy writer podcast. Until next time stay healthy, stay cozy and whatever life throws at you today. I hope that now you're feeling a little bit happier.