Outlining and Life Balance with Romance Writer Hannah Orenstein - Meant To Be Mine

Marissa chats with Hannah Orenstein about her new romance - MEANT TO BE MINE - as well as how the beloved genre ideals of "fate" and "soul mates" can come with their own problems, and how to leverage those to add believable conflict in your romance; crafting lush settings that will whisk your readers away while also introducing that aspirational lifestyle element that many readers crave; using the outline stage to explore possibilities for various subplots before committing to your final story, and how the path not chosen can be used to create dynamic relationships; why having the right day job can go a long way when it comes to balancing your career with your writing goals; and how the best method for keeping your ideas fresh is to get out there and live your own life.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:11

Hello, and welcome to the happy writer. This is a podcast that aims to bring readers, more books to enjoy and to help authors find more joy in their writing. I am your host, Mari Meer. Thank you so much for joining me. As you can tell, we are back safe and sound from our very first big epic family road trip. Uh, we were gone for two weeks traveling down the Oregon coast and into Sonoma California, and it went great. Our very dated Winnebago only sort of broke down one time<laugh> um, but we were able to get it to a shop and it all worked out and we made it home in one piece. Uh, so it was a very fun, very action packed. Couple of weeks. I sort of wish we could have spent a little bit more time just chilling at the campgrounds and reading some books. Um, but we did lots of fun things and got outdoors more than we have the last couple of years. So all in all, I would say it was a success and I am looking forward to doing much more road tripping with the girls as they get a little bit older. So on that note, what is making me happy this week? Um, it was hard to narrow down because we saw and did so many super fun things while we were gone. But definitely one of the biggest highlights was that we went to the Sequoia park zoo, which is in Eureka, California, right in the heart of the Redwood forest. Uh, so first of all, it was just like really cool seeing the redwoods and the girls seeing the redwoods. Um, but at this zoo they have two red Panas. Now I have been very loyal to the Arctic Fox has been my favorite animal for as long as I can remember. I love the adorable Arctic Fox, but seeing red Panda live and in person O M G I have never seen anything so cute in my entire life. They are like criminally adorable. I don't know how long I stood at their enclosure and just like was melting and gushing it, how cute their little faces and their puffy tails and the Arctic Fox has some competition now. So just the fact that something so ridiculously adorable exists in our world has been making me very, very happy. Of course, I am also so happy to be talking to today's guest. She is the author of head over heels love at first, like, and playing with matches. And she currently works as the deputy editor of dating at elite daily. Her newest novel meant to be mine came out earlier this month. Please. Welcome Hannah. Ornstein.

Speaker 2: 3:08

Hi, thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

Speaker 1: 3:12

Thank you so much for joining me and congratulations on the release of your fourth novel. How are you feeling?

Speaker 2: 3:19

It's exciting. Thank you. Um, I don't know if it's as exciting as seeing red Panas you were talking and I was like,

Speaker 1: 3:24

<laugh>, you know, it's fine as a life Eyelight who knew<laugh> yeah,

Speaker 2: 3:29

I saw penguins a couple weeks ago and that really, I mean, it was up there for me. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 3:34

Oh, penguins. I love penguins too. They are so cute, but they smell kind of funny.

Speaker 2: 3:39

They do.

Speaker 1: 3:39

They do. Yeah. Yeah.<laugh>

Speaker 2: 3:42

Things are going well. The book has been out for a little bit and it's kind of that sweet spot where the first couple readers are finishing and, you know, posting about it on Instagram and I'm getting feedback. And just to see that people are connecting with the book has made me so incredibly happy and that's really just the biggest gift in the world, you know, to put out a book and have readers enjoy it. So I'm really grateful for that.

Speaker 1: 4:04

Absolutely. And I do feel like that that moment, you know, a couple of weeks after the book comes out and you've had, you know, so much anxiety and nerves kind of leading up to the launch and to start getting that feedback that like, okay, it's good. People are enjoying it. We're all. Okay. Like, I don't know for me at that point, all of my stress and expectations, just start to like level out again, which is always really nice.

Speaker 2: 4:31

Yeah. I also think at that point it's like, everything is out of your control. You've done everything that you can do. So it's sort of like, there's nothing left to worry about. I mean, I still worry about things, but I shouldn't. Um, so that's kind of nice to get to that point.

Speaker 1: 4:44

Yeah, no, definitely. And then you get to focus on the next one. Yes. So the first question I ask all of our guests and I is, I would love to hear your author origin story. How did we get to this point?

Speaker 2: 5:00

So I've always wanted to be a writer since I was a little kid, I was scribbling in notebooks. I wrote like huge, long composition notebook, fantasy novels that were probably terrible. Um, when I was like nine, but, um, I went to school to study journalism. I wanted to be a magazine writer or a magazine editor. And so I went to NYU, I studied journalism. I interned at a bunch of different magazines and I was really excited to hopefully land a career in magazines after graduation. But before I got to that point, I had sort of this detour where this woman, this editor that I met at L um, she's such a hero of mine. I really admire her work. And I knew that she had just launched an amateur, no, sorry. A real, I was doing the amateur. I was doing amateur matchmaking on my college's campus. I was setting up students and writing about their dates and publishing it on our school's blog. And I knew that she had just launched a real matchmaking service, a luxury matchmaking service that matched sort of like rich new Yorkers essentially. And I crossed paths with her. I did a project for her. I was obsessed with her and I, you know, sent her this, thank you note, allow, you know, thank you for allowing me to work on this project. And in it, I mentioned the matchmaking connection and she wrote back like instantly, like I like 30 seconds later, she was like, great. So when can I hire you?<laugh> so I was 21. I was still in college. I was a terrible matchmaker. I really did not know what I was doing, but I figured, you know, this is like a once in a lifetime opportunity. I'm gonna go for it. And I'm so grateful that I did. I worked as a matchmaker for seven months. It was a chaotic rollercoaster of a time. And I learned a lot and I met some really fascinating people. And so I knew that I wanted to write a novel maybe, but I really doubted that I was creative enough or talented enough or disciplined enough. But once I had this idea of writing about my matchmaking experiences, I thought, okay, well this is at least worth maybe giving a try. Um, so I took a creative writing class and the people in the class were very different than I am. Um, you know, this, I went to NYU, so they were all, you know, head to toe dressed in black they're chain, smoking outside the library, they all this like really underground anti music that is like two levels below anything I've ever heard of underground. Um, very intimidating. And they were writing all these stories about like men on road trips and having midlife crises and drinking bourbon. And then I just walked in, in my little pink mini skirt. And I was like, I have a story about matchmaking<laugh> and they liked it. And they said, you know, you should just keep going. Like, you should expand this from a short story into a novel. And so I figured, you know, this is not my target audience. These writers are not into the kind of books that I like to read, but if even they recognize that this might have a chance at being something I should pursue it. And so, um, a couple months later I had finished college and I set out, I gave myself a six month deadline and I said, you know, I'm gonna try to make the first draft happen in six months. And it did. Um, and that was many years ago and here we are four books later.

Speaker 1: 8:04

Nice. And so that first, that was the first book that you wrote and it sold.

Speaker 2: 8:08

Yes. That's called playing with matches.

Speaker 1: 8:10

Nice. Oh my gosh. I love that. I feel like, and that's one of the reasons that we asked this question is cuz everybody's story is different. Um, and it's unusual to hear someone who wrote and sold on the first try. I feel like it's much more common to hear the, you know, years and years of this draft that draft this rejection, et cetera, et cetera.

Speaker 2: 8:32

Yeah. I mean, I think I got really, really lucky. I know that I worked hard. I know that, you know, I tried my best, but I mean, so many people work hard and try and do not get it. But I think part of the luck element was that I was writing about things that were just on the cusp of being really trendy. Mm. So my book is it's about matchmaking, but it's really about dating apps too, because the year that I was matchmaking was the year that dating apps really exploded. And so I think editors and agents were interested in, you know, sort of dating app culture. And here I was, I was, you know, 22, 23 and I was this sort of like digital native. And they really didn't have anybody who was necessarily writing about dating apps and dating from, you know, that perspective as a millennial, you know, of that age. Yeah. I think you gotta find your niche somehow I stumbled into it, but I think, um, you can be strategic, you know, you don't wanna do something that, you know, isn't exciting to you. You don't wanna do something that rings false to you, but if you do have a niche that you're interested in leading into, like by all means, go for it.

Speaker 1: 9:29

Yeah. I gotta say your life kind of sounds like the plot of a hallmark movie.<laugh>

Speaker 2: 9:35

<laugh>

Speaker 1: 9:36

I do, I guess,

Speaker 2: 9:37

I guess I dunno

Speaker 1: 9:38

The matchmaking in New York, the college, you know, the stereotypical college students, the author life. I mean, there's just like a lot going on here that you could work with.

Speaker 2: 9:49

Yeah. I think I've only seen one hallmark movie. It was the Harry and Meghan movie. Um, and my life is nothing like that.

Speaker 1: 9:55

<laugh>, it's a good, I, I have not seen that once.<laugh>

Speaker 2: 9:59

Good. I recommend it.

Speaker 1: 10:01

So on that note, would you please tell listeners a little bit about your newest book meant to be mine?

Speaker 2: 10:07

Yes. Meant to be mine is a romcom set in New York city. It follows a fashion stylist named EDI and on when she's 29 years old, she boards a plane to go visit her sister in Maine. And this happens on a very important day, this June 24th, 2022. And that is the day that her grandmother Gloria has predicted that EDI will meet the love of her life. Gloria is this really eccentric, fabulous matriarch. And when she was very young, when she was in her twenties, she discovered that she had this intuitive power to predict not only the day that she would meet her soulmate, but also her siblings, her children, and now her grandchildren. And so EDI meets a very sexy musician named Theo on the plane and then things do not go exactly the way that she expected them to go. And she has some pretty difficult choices to make about not only love and relationships, but also, you know, about family tradition and you know, what you believe in. And it challenge a lot of her beliefs. And, um, yeah, I, I'm not gonna say any more than that. You have to read to find out what happens next.

Speaker 1: 11:12

No, I will say in preparing for our chat today, I realized that this is one of those books that it's going to be difficult to dive into some of the, the various, you know, writing techniques and, and plot devices, et cetera, without giving away spoilers. Have you found it kinda hard to talk about this book?

Speaker 2: 11:35

Um, I, I would love to talk about the ending more and I feel like I, I can't because of spoilers. Yeah. Um, but I think that's the one thing that is sort of harder to talk around, but everything else, I mean, hit me with questions and I'll, I'll answer it in a spoiler free ways.

Speaker 1: 11:49

Okay. Well, we'll definitely keep it as spoiler free as we can. Um, so to start, the story of course is built so heavily on these prophecies. We have this fantastic character, Gloria, the grandmother who has predicted the days in which Edie and her family members will meet the loves of their life. And that's very much like the catalyst that sets off the whole story. And as a lover of romance fiction, I love fate. I love destiny. I love soulmates all of this, but you very much kind of turn it on it's head in some ways that we won't go into details.<laugh> was that always kind of a part of the plan?

Speaker 2: 12:37

I knew that I wanted to explore a question that readers could ask themselves and maybe debate. And so the question that I came up with, you know, when starting this book was, if you knew the day that, you know, if you could know the day that you were gonna meet your soulmate, what do you want to know? And when I first started writing this, I thought, yes, absolutely. This was, I started April 1st, 20, 20, early, early, early days of the pandemic when everything felt very out of control. And I think to me at that time, the idea of having one piece of my life completely under control felt very attractive. But as I started writing this book, I realized, you know, that, you know, there are so many more complications that ed, you know, encounters in this book. Um, she puts an enormous amount of pressure on herself for this one relationship to go, right. Which is really a series of nerve wracking moments. You know, I mean, the moment that you meet somebody, the moment that you, you know, exchange numbers or kiss, or, you know, introduce them to your family and friends. And she is just really, really, um, you know, almost crumbling under this pressure because she just wants it to go right so badly. And I think even if you know, you and I don't have our, you know, prophecy dates, um, or maybe you do, I don't know<laugh>, but<laugh>, I think everybody who dates, you know, can sort of relate to that pressure, whether it's internal, you know, you have your own expectations to live up to, or you feel like you need to meet the expectations of your family, or, you know, the quote unquote right. Timeline to live your life. I don't think there is one, um, or, you know, expectations that come from just, you know, our culture. So EE struggles with a lot of that. And she really deeply believes in this prophecy because she cares so much about her grandmother. Family is incredibly important to her. It's maybe the most important thing to her in the world, but, you know, hands in hand with that, um, you know, her, her pursuit of romance is also incredibly important to her. So she winds up breaking off her relationship with her boyfriend, Jonah, who she loves very deeply. This happens, um, six months before the events of the book. And she has really, you know, the stakes are high for her. She let this man that she loved walk away. She made him go away. Um, because she believed in this so much. So that's where EDI starts her journey with fate and soulmates

Speaker 1: 14:49

Mm-hmm<affirmative> no, it really is such an interesting question cuz before having met my husband, if someone would've offered this to me, like on this date, you'll meet the one I would've said yes, absolutely. Hands down. I think almost just as much for the comfort of knowing that there is a one out there<laugh> like that, that the confidence to know, okay, there's gonna be somebody don't worry about it so much. But in hindsight, like when you do stop and think about how would that have changed the experience of meeting that person, it really brings up a lot of new questions and pressures and you really explore that in depth. I mean, it was really fun, kind of seeing ed go through this process and the constant, the way that she just battles with herself and back and forth. Um, it was very SC girl and I, I was right there for the journey. I felt every emotion with her.

Speaker 2: 15:49

Oh, thank you. Thank you so much. It was fun to contrast her with Ray who's her twin sister and EDI is privacy to meet her person at 29, but Ray is supposed to meet her person at just 18<laugh> and that really freaks her out. And so to play around with the way that the two of them separately, um, reacted to this information was really fun for me. I had a great time doing it.

Speaker 1: 16:10

Yeah. So one thing I have to ask about in your acknowledgements, you mentioned that every prophecy date in the book corresponds to an important real life date, I'd love to know more about that.

Speaker 2: 16:25

Yeah. So I mentioned the pandemic as one of the inspirations for the book, you know, this idea of control, but another huge source of inspiration to me really was my family. Um, you know, I think we all had that moment in, you know, spring 2020 of this light at the end of the tunnel idea, you know, like as soon as I can do X, Y, Z, like that's when things will be safe, that's when, you know, I know that things will be okay. And for some people it was travel or, you know, going out dancing with their friends or, you know, whatever it is. But for me it was, I really wanna go hug my grandparents mm-hmm<affirmative> and that was the thing that I wanted to do more than anything. And so that's where the character of Gloria came from, you know, this really, um, you know, warm, witty sort of blunt Jewish grandparents. My grandparents are Jewish, I'm Jewish. Um, and so that's where that came from. So Gloria predicts the date that she will meet her husband as June 1st, 1958. That is my own grandparents wedding day. EDI meets Theo on flight number 1224, which is a reference to my parents meeting on Christmas Eve. Hmm. A lot of the other days in the book are my grandparents' birthdays or like my parents' wedding anniversaries in there as well. And June 24th has no connection other than I figured, okay. All of my books have come out either in June or August. And I think two of them come, came out the last week of June. And so I'm gonna pick the last week of June cuz hopefully that lines up.

Speaker 1: 17:45

Oh, I love that. I was gonna ask. Cause I like that's only a few days away. There could be something special coming your way. Who knows

Speaker 2: 17:52

<laugh> well, here's, what's really funny about that. So, you know, I picked this over two years ago, this date and then last year I get a wedding invitation from my friends and her wedding is that weekend. She's getting married in Portugal. It's gonna be amazing. And I'm gonna be on a flight on June 24th, just 80.

Speaker 1: 18:10

Oh my goodness. And are you married? Are you in a relationship? Is that like, am I allowed to ask that? No

Speaker 2: 18:15

Single, oh

Speaker 1: 18:16

My goodness. Things do

Speaker 2: 18:17

Happen to be on my plane.

Speaker 1: 18:19

<laugh> well that is, so this is not, this episode will come out the following Monday. So if you meet your soulmate, will you email me and let me know so I can include it in the show notes.

Speaker 2: 18:29

Yes. I don't know if I'll know exactly, you know, on June 24th, but we'll see.

Speaker 1: 18:33

Okay. Sounds good deal.<laugh> um, so this is now your fourth romance that you have written, uh, talk to me a little bit about writing romance and like what to you are some of the elements of a romantic relationship that really makes it spark and, and shine and sparkle. What do you look for as a reader? What do you try to incorporate as a writer, et cetera, et cetera.

Speaker 2: 19:01

Yeah. So I think that in order to write romance, you have to be able to fall in love with your character and you have to do that in order to show your reader, you know, what, what sparkles, what is special because it's not just, oh, you know, this person is hot and they're nice and they kissed me like that's very boring. You have to find the quirky, maybe even flawed things that make a person special and yet see them through this really romantic, warm, supportive light. So that's really important. So every love interest I've written, I, I do personally love. Um, but then also I think you have to, or at least not have to what I like to do and what I think maybe separates my romance is a little bit from a lot of the other books in the genre. Um, a lot of the books have conflicts that are, you know, interpersonal conflicts between characters. I like to have that, but also, you know, conflicts that show that dating is really hard.

Speaker 1: 19:56

Yeah. You know,

Speaker 2: 19:57

It's not always easy. There are really difficult moments. Dating culture is something that I'm really interested in. I mean, I'm the dating editor at elite daily. Um, you know, so looking at sort of societal forces, like dating apps or, you know, in this case with this book, you know, the sort of like ticking timeline that a lot of people feel like they have in relation or, you know, to get to the relationship. Um, so those are the kinds of the things that I'm really interested in. And so, uh, those tend to come out in my romances as well.

Speaker 1: 20:23

Mm-hmm<affirmative> do you outline, or are you more of a seat of your pants writer?

Speaker 2: 20:29

I'm a big outliner. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 20:31

Okay. Um, so how does that work, you know, in a, a novel like this, where it's more internal conflict driven, what are the sorts of things that you are including in your outline? Is it mostly like the external things that are then forcing ed to think and change and grow? Or does your outline actually include some of those, um, more of the internal conflicts that she's experiencing and how is she dealing with those?

Speaker 2: 21:02

The outlines are usually pretty plot driven and I mean, from there, I know, okay. Like here, she's obviously going to be sad or she's gonna be happy. Um, and so I just sort of keep in mind as I'm writing, you know, okay. These are the events that have to happen, but once I'm writing it, okay, well, how do these events make everybody feel? Mm-hmm<affirmative> so that's sort of what I do. Um, when I started outlining this book, there are three male characters in this book. There is Theo who's the musician that ed needs on the plane. There's max, who is engaged to Ed's twin sister. And then there's Bennett, who is Max's childhood best friend who is moving to New York just as the novel begins and, and he and ed become friends. And so I was trying to figure out, like I liked all three of these characters. I kind of loved all of them. And I was like, I could, I could fall in love with any of them. Like any of'em<laugh>

Speaker 1: 21:51

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 21:51

Could be a really fun, love interest to write. And so part of my outlining process was, you know, exploring different dynamics between ed and each of them and figuring out, okay, which relationship is the most interesting to focus on. And so I liked the idea of ed and Theo together because they're both really creative people. She's in fashion, he's in music. I think that they both have a very, um, sort of like romantic starry-eyed view of the world yet they see romance in different ways. So that's how that all came together. There was a lot of sort of, uh, shuffling around chest pieces. And there's also a death in the book, not a spoiler, but you know, somebody dies. Um, and even that was not set in stone. There were other, at least one other option for who that would be so interesting, knew a lot of the different elements, but I didn't know who the elements would apply to.

Speaker 1: 22:39

Oh, how interesting. Um, I love hearing that you, you toyed with the possibility of all three of these guys, because I agree, I love all three of them and as a reader, and I'm the same way as you, like, I fall in love with my characters and of course, as a reader, you long to fall in love when you're reading a romance, mm-hmm,<affirmative> like, you wanna feel all of those same emotions. Um, and yeah, they were three great male leads. And I love to hear that there was some uncertainty, even from you to see kind of like which path she would go down and who she would end up with. Because I, I felt that in the book, there were definitely points where I'm leaning this way and now I'm leaning this way and it just makes it so much more realistic.

Speaker 2: 23:25

Oh, thank you. I'm glad you enjoyed it.

Speaker 1: 23:27

So let's talk about that death. We won't say who it is. Um, but it's sad. It's a really, really, really sad part of the book. How do you tackle writing loss, writing, uh, period of mourning and make it authentic and, and, you know, really delve into those emotions without it feeling cheesy or without it feeling like, you know, mellow dramatic in some way.

Speaker 2: 24:01

Yeah, sure. Um, so I mean, I guess it came together in a couple different ways. So I mentioned that my grandparents were huge sources of inspiration for the book. Um, I really wanted to hug them and just about a month before I finished the book. So after I had written the death scene and after I'd written some of the scenes about mourning and grief, um, both of my grandparents died within left in a month. I'm

Speaker 1: 24:21

So sorry.

Speaker 2: 24:22

Thank you. Yeah. And so, I mean, the book is really sort of a tribute to how much they meant to me. So, you know, of course I wish that they could have read it, but I do think that, you know, going through an experience of loss or two experiences of loss is sort of back to back, um, gave me just a little bit more insight about really what that felt like, um, and sort of how it affects your day to day existence and your thought patterns and you know, how you relate to other people. So that was definitely something I was thinking about, but also, um, you know, my therapist says one thing she said about this experience that I went through, losing both my grandparents back to back is that love is the opposite of grief. You know, you can't, you can't grieve somebody if you didn't love them. And if you love somebody, you know, the risk that you run is that eventually, you know, you may lose them. And so I think the way that the death in the book happens is sad, but it's also a, a reflection of, you know, the character's love for this person.

Speaker 1: 25:20

Mm-hmm<affirmative> did you, you know, so you have written this scene or these scenes, and then you have this horrible loss. Did you then go back and like how much did the, the scenes change do you feel after actually experiencing this firsthand?

Speaker 2: 25:38

I think in terms of plot, it's pretty much the same, but I think that there were just, you know, maybe small, like emotional insights or little details that just suddenly felt really realistic to me that I added in. Yeah. Um, especially when it came to processing it. Right. Because okay. Like the death, you know, anybody can sort of, you know, pick a, you know, a tragic series of events. We see them all the time in books and TVs and movies. Um, but every character is gonna react to that differently. So sort of, you know, by understanding how I was reacting to it, I could think, okay, well, you know, how would this person feel? You know, if they were, you know, if they were, I mean, they are going through something similar.

Speaker 1: 26:15

Yeah. All right. We'll move on to, to brighter topics. Um, I definitely wanna take a little bit of time to talk about New York, um, because this is one of those books that to me, New York felt like its own character. And, and I think that there's, there's something about some of these cities, New York Paris, you know, you kind of get that, that aspirational lifestyle component in the story. You know, it's kind of like got a little hint of sex in the city, a little Emily in Paris vibe, there's glamor, there's fashion, there's cocktails, Edie, our main character. She's a stylist, which sounds like just the coolest job ever. How big of a role do you think, like that element, this vicarious quality, not so much with the romance, but just with the lifestyle, like how big of a part does that play in your books, in this story? Or even just like in the romance genre as a whole?

Speaker 2: 27:17

Yeah. Well, I mean, I love books with really lush, descriptive settings that just whisk me away somewhere else. Me, one of my favorite writers is Ellen Hilderbrands and she is the queen of this. I mean, she's truly built a career off, you know, making people want to flock to Nantucket, which I did last year because I was obsessed with her books. I went to all the places on the island. It was amazing. Um, oh,

Speaker 1: 27:40

That's the best compliment to an author. I think<laugh>,

Speaker 2: 27:43

It really is. It really is. I mean, in my first book, I wrote a couple scenes in my favorite Mexican restaurant, this tiny little hut in the wall by NYU that I went to with my college friends once a week, for years, like even after we graduated and after the book came out, after playing with matches, came out, it's a really tiny restaurant. There's like maybe eight tables. Um, one night I got a message from a reader and she was like, I'm here with my friend because of the book. And there's another table at the other end of the restaurant who was also here because of the book. And that just like, that was the moment to me. I was like, if I never do anything else, this is the coolest, thank you.

Speaker 1: 28:19

I love that.

Speaker 2: 28:20

Yeah. So, uh, you know, I wrote this book during the pandemic when I New York was unrecognizable, it was very different and I didn't know what 2022 was gonna look like. So I just sort of had to go with, what do I think people would wanna read in 2022? And so I thought that would be a really vibrant lush, glamorous, immersive version of New York city, where you get to do all the things that make the city really special. So there are great restaurants and bars, really fun outfits. You get glimpses of sort of eccentric oddball people that the city is populated with. There are sweeping skylines and rivers and, um, yeah, and I really wanted to show off Williamsburg, which is my neighborhood. So that's where Edie lives. And, um, I get to drop in a lot of my favorite spots

Speaker 1: 29:10

That is so fun. No, and it definitely had that feel of like getting to experience the city and the nightlife and all of this. And like I have, it's one of those things where I personally, I am not this person. I, I like the, the idea of going out for drinks five or six nights a week just sounds exhausting to me, but I love it in a book. Like I crave it in a book. And so it's just like really fun to get, to experience that through, through the page and through ed.

Speaker 2: 29:43

Oh, I'm so glad you enjoyed it. Thank you.

Speaker 1: 29:46

All right. My last question that I wanna talk about before we move on to our bonus round is you you've mentioned, you know, you worked as a professional matchmaker, which then gave you the idea for your first novel. Um, you're still working as a, a, a dating editor. I'm not entirely sure what a dating<laugh> editor does or what that means. Um, but how do you, I mean, those are obvious or being an editor is obviously a, a word language focused job. How do you balance your quote unquote day job with novel writing?

Speaker 2: 30:20

So I'm an editor. I can tell you a little bit about what I do. Um, I work at elite daily and I cover, well, my team really covers, um, single life dating relationships, breakups, sex, sexuality, celebrity relationships, astrology, as it pertains to relationships. And so it's, it's the best job in the world. I get to talk about these subjects all day long and think about them and, you know, work with writers to tell stories about, um, you know, trends that are going on with those themes or personal experiences, or my favorite honestly, sometimes is service, you know, helping readers with these topics. Mm-hmm,<affirmative>, that's what I do. And prior to that, um, my first job postcollege was working@seventeen.com as a writer. We did get into the magazine world a little bit. Um, and I was writing my first book. Then I was working, I think maybe on my second, no, I was, I was trying to sell my first book and I knew that, you know, editing was a skill that I was hoping to build. And I was curious about switching into an editing job, but I also knew that, you know, regardless of my own interests for, you know, my primary career, which then was editing or writing rather, um, I knew that, you know, I can't write all day and then come home and write a book mm-hmm

Speaker 1: 31:31

<affirmative>. So

Speaker 2: 31:32

I was writing from like 7:00 AM to 6:00 PM. Like that's not sustainable to then do that and then come home and write a book. So editing uses a completely different part of my brain. I am really, you know, fortunate to be able to do both, but I think that through my day job, having access to, you know, therapists, matchmaker, um, you know, all sorts of kinds of experts who work in that world, you know, I get just to read so much advice and so much really fascinating insight. And so that I think eventually does seep into my books.

Speaker 1: 32:01

Yeah, no, I can totally see how it would be very inspiring.

Speaker 2: 32:04

Yeah. Thank you. I mean, there's a scene where, and Theo get into a little bit of a squabble and I wrote this really, really long scene about, you know, them sort of hashing it out. And my editor was like, nobody speaks like this. This is how this is how a couple's counselor would advise them to work this out.<laugh> this is not actually how they're gonna work it out. And I was like, oh, yes.<laugh>

Speaker 1: 32:27

That is funny. Yeah. That

Speaker 2: 32:29

Got revised.

Speaker 1: 32:30

<laugh> how often on a daily basis does something that comes up in your editorial work, then inspire an idea for a story or a book or inspire something to happen in the plot? Like, are you constantly like joting little notes, like, Ooh, I could have this happen or this would be a great character from work.

Speaker 2: 32:49

Not so much just because I think that it's more like the, the knowledge base that it gives me, which is really helpful to have. But I do think, you know, daily life is the best. Um, you know, I just joined a yoga studio recently and it there's some wild characters there and I'm, you know, meeting really interesting people. And I was like, oh, like, this could be a book. Maybe like, yeah. You know, bits and pieces. I think you have to try new experiences and go to new places and meet new people because that's how you keep the ideas fresh.

Speaker 1: 33:16

Yes. I agree with that. 100% live your life

Speaker 2: 33:21

Live.

Speaker 1: 33:23

Okay. Are you ready for a bonus round?

Speaker 2: 33:25

Yes, let's do

Speaker 1: 33:25

It. Excellent. First up tea or coffee?

Speaker 2: 33:30

Coffee. I'm a Duncan donuts girl. I grew up in Boston

Speaker 1: 33:35

Cake or pie

Speaker 2: 33:37

Pie.

Speaker 1: 33:38

Sunny beach or snowy mountains.

Speaker 2: 33:41

Oh, beach all the way.

Speaker 1: 33:43

New York or Paris.

Speaker 2: 33:46

I gotta go with New York

Speaker 1: 33:48

Champagne or a martini.

Speaker 2: 33:50

Oh, that's not fair. There's so many, both of those in this book. I'm gonna go with the martini because that is EDI and Gloria's signature drink.

Speaker 1: 34:00

What is the top song on your writing playlist?

Speaker 2: 34:04

I listen to lake sounds like just, um, lake recordings of lakes. I find it very soothing. Oh,

Speaker 1: 34:10

I love that. Yeah. How do you fill the creative? Well,

Speaker 2: 34:16

You gotta go out, meet new people, see new things, have new experiences. Um, I also write outside. I find that really relaxing and I write long hands on paper and it has really transformed my process completely.

Speaker 1: 34:30

What is your personal mantra?

Speaker 2: 34:35

Ooh, I'm gonna steal one from my editor who brought me into the matchmaking world. Fortune favors the bolt. I thought about that a lot. When trying to get my first book published, you just have to go for it.

Speaker 1: 34:47

What advice would you give to help someone be a happier writer?

Speaker 2: 34:52

Oh, wow. Um, I think you have to find what works for you. There's so much writing advice out there. People say you have to write every day at six o'clock in the morning, you have to write, you know, a thousand words a day. You have to, I don't know. I mean, there's so many different rules out there. You have to outline you shouldn't outline. You just have to find what works for you. And that takes some trial and error, but it's really worth it. Because if you are trying to stick to a system that doesn't make sense. You're not allowing yourself the creativity. You're not allowing yourself the time or the structure to really flourish.

Speaker 1: 35:25

What book makes you happy?

Speaker 2: 35:28

Ooh, fun question. Um, so many I'm having trouble narrowing it down. The book that I constantly reread is the idea of you by Robin Lee. I'm obsessed. Um, highly recommend it. Uh, if you, if you're listening and you haven't heard of it, it's essentially Harry style's fan fiction. It's delightful. It's so sexy. It's so sad. It's so good. Read it.

Speaker 1: 35:52

I have not heard this of this book and I will put it on my list. What are you working on next?

Speaker 2: 36:00

So I'm working on another book. I can't really talk about it yet, which is I know a boring answer.<laugh>

Speaker 1: 36:05

But I'm also, but a common one.<laugh>

Speaker 2: 36:07

I know, but I'm also working on a secret little project. Um, I will give you a sneak peek here before we officially announce it, but it is a newsletter that I'm going to start with. My friend, Georgia Clark, who is a fellow romance author. And every week we're gonna send out an original, short story from authors that we love both names you've heard of and exciting new voices. And it's called heartbeat. It's gonna be on subst, which is a newsletter platform. We will be on Instagram. Um, and every story is about love, whether that is romantic or platonic or familial or self love.

Speaker 1: 36:39

Oh my gosh. I love it. What a fun idea.

Speaker 2: 36:41

Thank you. It launches in July.

Speaker 1: 36:44

Excellent. Oh, cool. I'm so glad that you told us about that. That we're interviewing you at right. Just the right time here.

Speaker 2: 36:51

Perfect timing.

Speaker 1: 36:54

Lastly, where can people find you

Speaker 2: 36:57

I'm on Instagram at Hannah or H a N N a H O R E N S.

Speaker 1: 37:04

Awesome. Hannah, thank you so much for joining me today.

Speaker 2: 37:06

Thank you so much for having me. You are the best

Speaker 1: 37:09

Readers. Be sure to check out meant to be mine. It is available. Now, of course, we encourage you to support your local indie bookstore. If you don't have a local indie, you can check out our affiliate store at bookshop.org/shop/marisa Meyer. Next week, I will be talking with Rachel Menard about her Greek mythology inspired fantasy game of strength and storm. If you're enjoying these conversations, please subscribe and follow us on Instagram at Marissa Meyer author and at happy writer podcast until next time stay healthy, stay cozy and whatever life throws at you today. I hope that now you're feeling a little bit happier.