A Twist on Worldbuilding and Greek Myth-Inspired Fantasy with Rachel Menard - Game of Strength and Storm

Marissa chats with Rachel Menard about her debut Greek Myth-inspired fantasy - GAME OF STRENGTH AND STORM - as well as making the tough decision to put a novel on the backburner, which is not the same thing on giving up on it entirely; how imagining your story in a totally different genre can lead to unique and unexpected developments in your worldbuilding; writing a retelling that will surprise readers, even those who know the original story; some things to consider when it comes to including multiple points of view, and how to decide which POV to use for each chapter; why motive plays such a huge role in characterization and can help to make your unlikeable characters relatable and your antagonists redeemable; and crafting a magic system with rules and limitations that will constantly challenge your protagonist. 

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:10

Hello, and welcome to the happy writer. This is a podcast that aims to bring readers, more books, to enjoy and to help authors find more joy in their writing. I am your host Marisa Meyer. Thank you for joining me. One thing making me happy this week is that I am treating myself to a mini writing retreat over in Eastern Washington. Uh, I have got two big deadlines coming up the next few weeks. One of them is for one of those super, super secret projects that I always hint at, but I'm not actually allowed to talk about. So I can't say anything about that one. The other is that I will be reading through the cursed page proofs, which arrived in my inbox yesterday morning. They are so pretty. I'm gonna put a picture up on Instagram so we can all gush about it. Cause I love this part of the publishing process. I love when I get page proofs and they're all type set and they have all the fun design elements and it's like, oh my gosh, it's actually gonna turn into a real book. So this is my last pass through the book. I will be reading it, uh, completely page one to the end, um, and trying to make it the best book that I can for you guys. Uh, that is of course coming out in November. So very, very exciting. And I've got a lot of work to do so I am over here in Shelan, beautiful lake Shelan with, uh, gonna be treating myself to some local wineries and maybe spending a day down by the lake with my notebook. And it is a reminder that I have the best job ever. I love what I do. I love that I get to do it pretty much anywhere and I get to treat myself to these sorts of things. It makes me feel really fancy. Of course, I am also so happy to be talking to today's guest her self-published novel steel hand, cold heart won the grand prize in the writer's digest annual self-published ebook awards. And our short fiction has appeared in the final summons anthology and on the cast of wonders podcast, her debut ye novel game of strength and storm just came out last month, please. Welcome Rachel Menard. Hi, I'm happy to be here. I am so excited to have you and congratulations on your debut novel coming out. Thank you so much. Um, so as you know, I read this book a number of months ago, it was submitted to me as a, for a blurb request. And I remember when I first started reading it, maybe like, I don't know, maybe 40 50 pages into the book. I just had this moment where I was like, this is one of the most interesting and unique and fascinating fantasy worlds that I have read in a long time. And I got so excited. I absolutely loved it. And I have just been like gushing to everybody. I talk to about how they have to pick up this book when it comes out. So I'm so glad that it's finally here and I get to talk to you about it. Me too. And thank you so much for complimenting my world building.<laugh> my pleasure. We are definitely gonna talk world building cuz I really loved it and I want all of your secrets<laugh> uh, but before we get there, um, to start, I would like to know what is your author origin story? What are the twists of your life that brought you to having your debut novel out? Um, so I'd always wanted to write, I just didn't know what I wanted to write. So in college I dabbled with a few things. Um, I entered an essay contest for my state college newspaper that I won. And then I started my own, um, punk Z that I printed out of Microsoft works and left at record stores. Um, but none of it really clicked. And then after in my adult years I still wanted to write. So, um, I actually read Twilight and I was like, oh, I can write that and crank it out in three months and make a million dollars.<laugh> um, we all had that thought. Yeah, I mean it, uh, it didn't happen. Um, and my first book called a new Dawn is, um, basically Twilight fan fiction<laugh>, but I really enjoyed writing it and I enjoyed the process and um, it kind of spurred that creativity in me. So I wrote another book that was much more unique and um, just kept writing ye I really love it. Awesome. So at what point did you finish a novel? Like, are you one of those that you've got a drawer full of unpublished manuscripts or did you like go through lots of rejections? Like how did your, your publishing story go? Um, I do have a drawer full of unpublished manuscripts. So on that second book, it was a, um, dystopia in the heyday of dystopia. So I signed with my first agent and that book actually went up to acquisitions at Harper Collins and it got shot down by marketing. Hmm. So we shelved that book. I wrote two more with that agent and neither one sold. And so I decided that I needed to try something different. Um, so the next book didn't get an agent. The following book did, and we went on submissions and we got some feedback. So I made edits. And then when I came back, the edits that agent didn't like the edits. So she dropped me. Oh my gosh. Suddenly has a lot of drama in it.<laugh> oh yeah, I know. And then I wrote another book and I got another agent off that and then she switched agencies and was like, I don't have the time, you know, for you right now. So she dropped me, um, I wrote steel hand, cold heart, and I told myself, I was just gonna take that to the end, wherever it may be, um, which didn't get a traditional contract, but I did self publish, just kind of to try it. And, um, I didn't do a lot of sales, but I did earn that award. So that was really good. And it kind of just gave me the confidence booster I needed, like, okay, my wording is being recognized by, you know, a literary magazine and it did get to readers and I was getting good reviews. So I was like, okay, there's something here. I just need to keep trying. Um, so then I wrote game of strength and storm and went back to an agent who had rejected steel, hand, cold heart, but she loved this one and signed me and we went on submissions and it has a happy ending. I lost count was that like seven or eight books? It sounds like on my list, I have that game of strength and storm was the 11th. Oh my gosh. There might have been some I wrote in between that just didn't, you know? Yeah. End up even making it to an agent or to aquarium stage. Yeah. So for someone listening, who's on, let's say their fifth or sixth book and they've, you know, had, they've been going through the peaks and valleys, it's a roller coaster. They're maybe starting to lose faith or feeling like, why am I doing this to myself? I should just give up. What would you say to them? Um, I mean, for me, it depends on how badly you want it, if you wanna keep going. And also if I can give some advice, as you know, I went through, I had a lot of manuscripts and maybe if I had spent a little more time on some of those manuscripts, they would've been more successful on submissions. So, and you know, if you're on your fifth or sixth, I would say, maybe go back to some of those old ones and re-edit them and you know, maybe there's something there. It just needs to be a little bit better. Yeah. Do you think you'll ever go back to any of the old ones? Oh yeah. I'm going back to one now and just, uh, trying to, I'm not, it's not gonna be the same story, but when I look back at them, I can kind of see why they didn't make it to that finish line. Um, but there was some good stuff about'em, you know, either like really cool characters or a really cool world or like a fun plot. So I'm trying to pick those best pieces out and see if I can make something new from it. Yeah. No, I like hearing that. I think for a lot of writers, it can be really hard to put something on the back burner. Like, especially if you've been working on it for a long time, maybe it's a passion project. Maybe you just have your heart and soul in it and it can feel like giving up to set it aside and move on to something new mm-hmm<affirmative>, but that something new might teach you what you need to go back and make that, that first project, what it really wants to be. Exactly. No, very true. Yeah. Um, I really loved hearing your story. Thank you for staring<laugh> it's so like I'm like, is it depressing or inspiring?<laugh> I think it's absolutely inspiring. Um, I mean, it's all inspiring. Of course we also love the quote unquote Insta success, you know, the first novel that sells in a week, like that's exciting and it's something that you can kinda like dream about. But I think for so many more people, it is more useful to know that you can go through the process. You can get dumped by your agent. You can get rejected, you know, et cetera, et cetera. It doesn't mean that you won't get there. Mm-hmm<affirmative> I think it's actually more common. The more I talk to people and I've joined in some, you know, debut author groups, and the more people I talk to, the more common my type of story is than that instant success. So I, if anyone's listening and you're getting discouraged, like it's not just you<laugh>. Yeah, no, it's true. And this is a question that we ask, um, every author and yes, there is occasionally the one that's like their first novel sold. Um, sometimes it was a hit, but definitely more common to hear that yeah. To actually work for it. I mean, not that you didn't work for it. Everybody who writes a book, right. Like it's work<laugh> but it's more common to hear the, the multiple attempts mm-hmm<affirmative> um, and here we are, book number 11, AKA your debut novel.<laugh> yes. Could you please tell listeners what is game of strength and storm about? So, uh, game of strength and storm is a retelling of the labors of Hercules it's, uh, gender bent by a fantasy retelling that I added a competition element just to keep it, um, moving a little bit more and get some more drama and excitement do you're okay. So that's, that's that first, nicely now one<laugh> that's my log line. Um, so my main character, Jen is my Hercules character standin, um, and the original Hercules Hercules was doing the labors because he had been driven mad by her. She loved to do that and he had killed his family. So to redeem himself as a hero, he, the king STS had said, you need to do these 10 labors to redeem yourself. Um, as I started writing it, I didn't really wanna have my main character be in that situation. So I switched it and had her father be the one who was accused of these murders. And he's been imprison in prison for four years and Jen is trying to get them out. So in her imaginary country of, you know, our empire of Olympia, uh, they do an annual lottery where the emphasis, they grant 10 of their citizens, a wish from the empresses. So Jen goes to ask if they will release her father and clear his name, my second character castor. Um, she was actually inspired by someone from the story, the original Hercules story. So in one of the labors, um, Hercules has help from iOS who can wield fire and lightning. So that's kind of what spa the idea for castor of having this lightning wielder. Um, so she is going to the empresses she in her island, it's a patriarchal succession. So the inheritance will go from father to son who is her twin brother, but, um, she's your total boss girl and business lady, and she is not having it. So she's going to the EMS to ask that they change the succession rules. Um, and the EMS, I kind of wanted to keep that, you know, in Greek mythology, all the gods and rulers are always just toying with you and making you do ridiculous things. So, um, I wanted to keep that aspect true. And so I have the EMS task, Jen and castor in a competition to see who can finish six of the 10 labors first and only one of them will get their wish. Okay. That was much better. Thank you.<laugh> you're welcome. So, one thing that struck me immediately, um, is that yes, it is based on Greek mythology and I love anything Greek mythology. So when I first like got the email asking if I would read it, I was like, that sounds awesome. Sign me up. But I'd say it's fairly loosely based on Greek mythology. Like you've taken this kind of, um, loose framework from the Hercules story, but then it has spun out in so many different directions and there is nothing at all expected about this book to me. Like I was, I felt surprised every other page by it, which does not happen very often. Oh, good. Um, were, was when you first got the seed of the idea, like how much were you thinking I want to do a retelling of this story or how much were you thinking, okay, this has inspired me, but I'm gonna take in like, just run with it. I mean, I think as you also know, as one who writes incredible retellings, um, before you start, you kind of have to sit down and make that choice, like how close am I gonna stick to the story? Um, I kind of decided at the beginning, I was just gonna, you know, not stick that close to it and let, um, the story guide it, but definitely have a few, I kinda look at it as like, you know, you have a few ties back, you're in hot air balloon and you're flying off from the clouds, but you have a few ties back to the ground or the original story so that people can recognize it. But it is a unique story. Um, I also had people beta read who were not familiar with Hercules story and were very familiar and it was just really nice. I got feedback from someone who was very familiar. She loved it. Um, so I was like, okay, I'm not gonna like destroy a when's dreams. If they're huge, like Hercules fans, like you ruined my favorite story. Was it hard deciding what the 10 tasks would be? Because like you said, in a lot of ways you are using the original story and the original 10 tasks to inspire what your characters have to do, but again, you didn't really stick to what Hercules had to do. Right? Um, yeah. I mean, some of'em, I actually did keep the same, but a lot of them I made different. So I was just saying in the talk I was doing earlier, like, um, cleaning the stables of Ellis, they're still cleaning up a bunch of manure. I did not change that, but, um, I made the lion of, you know, casino owner, which is very far from the original. Um, I can't even tell you why I came up with that. It just it's been so long since I wrote the first draft. It just, but it feels right to me now. Yeah, no, I know how that is. There, there are definitely some things that in hindsight you're like, I have no idea where that idea came from know, but<laugh>, it popped in my head and we went with it. That's one of my favorite, like detours from the story is the lion and the casino and that whole scene. Yeah, no, I, I really enjoyed all of it and it's, you know, the original Hercules story. It's one of those that I was familiar with, but it was never one of my favorites. So like I had a vague idea of it, but, um, you know, wasn't like, I didn't know what the 10 tasks were off the top of my head. Uh, but after reading your book, I had to go and read the Hercules story because it just made me so curious about it. And for me, I know when someone reads one of my works, uh, retellings and then wants to go read the, the original source material. Like I always think that's such a huge compliment. Yeah. That is I'm glad I did inspire. That's what I was hoping you were gonna get to. Cause when you said like, oh yeah, I veered a lot. So I hope someone doesn't take my version as like, this is the Greek one, but I'm glad it inspired you to do like look that up, you know? That's um, that's great. Yeah. Um, alright, let's go into this world building that I mentioned that I just think is phenomenal. Uh, so it is super quirky. I mean, there's just, there's this like surreal bizarreness to it that works. And I don't know why or how it works, cuz I feel like if I tried to write this, it would just be like weird, but it works<laugh> um, so just talk to me a little bit. What is your process for world building? What were you kind of trying to accomplish when you were developing this world of Olympia? I mean, so one thing, what the opening scene, where they're going to the Empress to ask for their favor, I just really had this picture in my head of, in Fantasia, um, from the never ending story when all these different types of beings and, you know, creative creatures of Fantasia are gathered in this big room in front, you know, begging for health in the Empress. So that was the kind of scene I wanted to create with that where there's just this mystical world where there's all these different beings. Um, they don't look alike, you know, some of'em have horns, some of'em have many eyes, um, but they all like are part of citizens of the society. So, um, that was sort of what I was trying to create. And then, then along with like Greek mythology, um, I mean there's a lot of weird stuff in there if you start reading it. So I have the monkey that she picks up Argos, which is based off of Argos who had all these eyes. So, um, I plugged kind of, from those to that envision I had of never ending story and also like, what can I take from mythology? That's weird and like weave it into this. Did you know a lot about Greek mythology before starting on this book? Or did you have the idea and then do a deep delve into the mythology? I had the idea and then I delved into things I needed. Um, so I did a lot of searching of like looking up certain Greek gods or Greek myths, like for the island names, you know, um, there's a entire island where everyone's deaf. So I looked up, you know, gods or people that were for hearing just to kind of match it up for that reason. Mm-hmm<affirmative> I dunno if that's like, did I answer that better?<laugh> I'm so passing, I wanna go into your brain truly. Cause I'm just, I just loved it so much. It, this will probably be of interest to people. So part of the reason why it is so weird is because it was originally set in space. So I was picturing their going from planet to planet and these were all alien races. Um, when we went on submission, disgusting. Yeah. When we went on submission, we got a lot of pushback that, you know, you hear this young adult sci-fi doesn't sell, which is completely untrue. Yeah. Right. That's funny<laugh> but I was, you know, I talked about it with my agent and she's like, if we switch this to fantasy, like, is that possible? And we both sat down and thought about it and you know, that wasn't the heart of the message. Um, and honestly didn't alter the story that much a ship is a ship. She used to fly around in a space whale. It became like a regular water whale. So, oh, um, I love this so much and it does kind of explain a lot of things.<laugh>. I mean, if I, if that's what you wanna and you know what I do like that it came out probably more fantastical having written it as a science fiction story versus, um, a fantasy. And then when I paired it back down, I just left in all the unusual stuff. Yeah. What an interesting technique. Now I feel like I'm, I wanna approach my next fantasy work, like with alien species in mind and see what happens. I mean, yeah, right. What's the difference if we're making it up, could magic created or you know, a different planet or the environment and, and some of that's why you'll notice too, on some of the islands, like what creates like the coloring of their skin, the way they look is part of the environment. Cause I was picturing they were on this planet that would affect. Yeah. So I did think a lot about evolution and how people look from certain regions because of their climate or the diet or, you know, genetics. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's really, really interesting. I love that. Did you, so when you're trying to think of whether these alien species or, you know, even plot twists or the, the 10, um, labors or, or whatever it is, was it largely just like things popping into your head and you're like, that's cool. I'll go with that. Or did you like spend dedicated amounts of time during your process where it's like, okay, now I'm gonna pause and just try to create or come up with new, interesting ideas that, that the reader won't be expecting. Um, yeah. So the first draft, I wrote it all from Jen's perspective and I tried to write it as a straight, like she's gonna be tasked with these things, um, go from labor to labor, try to complete them. And it was really boring. So I think that's why the original Hercules is not the most popular story.<laugh> um, makes sense. And that's when I pulled in castor as, you know, a foil and a competitor, and then she had this brother and then I, he started to become more of a character to me. So I was like, well, I'm gonna bring him in too. But I feel like when, especially newer authors, we write like multi POV, you just get stuck on this idea that everyone needs equal time. So I definitely had to tell myself, everyone does not need equal time. So to me, this is still if I had to tear them, it's Jen's, cat's Jen's story, then Castor's story then Paul's story. But I think Jen is still my lead character. Yeah, no, I would agree with that assessment. And I did wanna talk about that as well. The, the three points of view, um, because I agree, Jen is our protagonist and mm-hmm<affirmative>, I think most readers are gonna be rooting for her, even though you've given castor, like pastor, like she's so cool. Like she's like the really cool girl that nobody really likes, but secretly wants to be<laugh>. Um, and then Polyx is just so sweet and endearing. Was it difficult to balance the three or did you, like, when did you decide, you know, what this chapter really needs to be from another point of view or, you know, it feels like we're focusing too much on Jen. Maybe I need to bring in something else. How did you plot that out? Um, well I'm not much of a plotter, so okay. Kinda<laugh> that's in itself as an answer.<laugh> so, as I said, I wrote it all and then I just, um, you know, I try to look at it as a reader when I'm like, who is the most exciting part of this chapter? Who do we wanna see as the lead in this chapter? Um, and it's, it was a little bit easier for this one because they're taking place mostly separately until Jen in polls come together. And then I kind of had to choose, um, who was gonna narrate one. And actually my agent had me switch one chapter two Polles because she thought it would be better from his POV mm-hmm<affirmative>. And was it, um, yeah, it was cause, um, yeah, he was the person new to the situation. So he had the most to learn and explore, and this was like a new place for him. Oh, awesome. So it definitely was the right choice. And that's one thing that people are writing multi POV to consider, like who has the most to gain or lose from the scene who has the most to learn. Um, he was new to that situation. So the reader could potentially see it through his eyes who is exploring this place for the first time, which I think is more, it was more interesting than Jen who had been there before. So yeah. Developing your character motivations. Um, because we do have these three points of view character. They all have very different reasons for being a part of this, just ridiculous set of challenges the emphasis have given them. Um, so you mentioned that Jen was originally your, your number one protagonist, the whole book was from her point of view. Uh, and then later you brought in castor, how did you go about developing their motives and making sure that they were each gonna have, uh, enough cause to stay in the game? Yeah, I was just talking about this earlier, too, that, um, so my first drafts are usually what happens when it happens. I write'em straight through, so I kind of call it, I call my glorified outlines. They're not that good, so I know what happens, but then I have to think about why it happens, which has a lot to do with motivation. Um, so for me it needs to be, if you're gonna fight in immortal beast, you have to have a really good reason to do it. Otherwise you're not gonna do it. Um, so that came into like building who castor was and what she wanted. So having lead of her island was everything to her was life itself. In that case, we needed to make her such a, you know, like a boss lady that there was, it was so unacceptable for her to ever take second place or marry for her power, that she would do anything to get it. Um, I also tried to develop, you know, try to develop this relationship with Jen, with Jen and her father, where they were very, very close so that you could understand why she'd be willing to do this stuff, to get him back. And there was also the aspect that with his reputation damaged, it took hers down too, and she's sort of my little extrovert and, um, she couldn't handle being hated like that and she would do anything to change that. Hmm. So it sounds like just in listening to the way you talk about it, I'm hearing external motivation, but how it also plays into internal motivation. Yes, absolutely. For me, I think like internal motivation is way more important<laugh> yeah. And they plan on each other, like, you can't really have one without the other, but they really have to work together. Yeah, true. So, you know, you've got, let's take, um, let's take castor, for example, did you know her story and kind of what she wanted, what was gonna be motivating her and then did that kind of create her character from that situation? Or was it more like you kind of started to feel like you knew this character and then had to figure out, well, what would motivate this specific character? Um, well, one thing I really like writing anti heroes. So even in my self published steel hand, cold heart, she's like, um, a very terrible mean character<laugh>, but for some reason you just find yourself endearing. And I just, I find that a challenge as a writer. So I do like writing those characters where they're kind of awful, but you also kind of like them. So based on her needs too, of what she wanted, you know, um, it definitely helped shape her into who she was going to be. And I think for her, she also has that growth over the novel where she starts to soften up a little bit. Probably not as much as she should, but I think we start to see her be more humanized than she is in the beginning where she definitely comes across as someone who would just crush everyone in her way. Yeah. Um, but yeah, so it's partly like driven by her needs and what I needed her motivation to be for the story. But she'd always started out as someone who was like gonna be the mean girl at school<laugh> yeah, yeah. Is that cause I also, I love the anti-hero I love writing villains and villain origins, and whenever I can like include a point of view from the villain, I just love that I love being in their heads, uh, for whatever reason, whatever that says about me or us<laugh> do you think how important is it when you're writing more of an anti-hero character to establish things that the reader can still relate to or connect with? Are you worried about that? Like what do you, what are you trying to accomplish there? Yeah, absolutely. Um, I think for me the first thing that established castor as you hate her, but she's also being forced to marry against her will she's the more qualified person who is having to take second seat to her brother. And so I think for any woman who we've all been in that situation,<laugh>, mm-hmm,<affirmative>, you're kind of like, well, not forced to marry,<laugh> not forced to marry, but you've grown cetera, cetera. Correct. But you've been passed over a promotion for someone who was less qualified or, you know, told you're not good enough. And so I think in that sense, we've all get like why caster wants to just smash everything in her way. Mm-hmm<affirmative> so we can empathize with her on that point, but yeah, that's about it.<laugh> yeah, yeah, no, definitely. Um, and I agree. I think it is important to like, you don't want your it's one of those things you want your readers to hate them, but not hate them at the same time. Yeah. She's definitely, I call her that friend. We all have that says what you're thinking, but you do not have the guts to say it. So you're just kinda quiet in the back. Oh my God. I'm glad she said it. So yeah. She's the character you love to hate. Yeah. And hate to love. Right. Right. No, definitely. But if she is there, she is relatable at the same time. Um, yeah. Yeah. And it's a hard line to walk sometimes as a writer to kind of find that middle ground. Yeah. I think the other thing that we, we can find redeemable about castor is that polyps loves her and he is the sweetest boy you've ever met in your life. And you're kind of like, if he can love her, then she can't be 100% bad. Yeah, no, that's an excellent point. Um, and a reminder that kind of your secondary characters can carry a lot of weight with readers. Mm-hmm<affirmative>. Yeah. Um, speaking of characters and writing characters that are relatable, a lot of characters in this book are not human. Um, we've got Jen and her magic gift is that she can talk to animals. And so the, we end up with like this amazing cast of really bizarre creatures mm-hmm<affirmative> animals kind of popping up throughout the story. Uh, what was your strategy for writing then and making them animals, but also characters? Um, I wish I could tell you why I gave her that magic know, and I don't remember<laugh>, but I can definitely say, um, you know, I'm an animal lover and we actually have two very old grumpy cats. So her dog or her canine companion, um, chomp is based off of our very old cats. We're there incredibly loyal to us, but they will bite and growl or at anyone else that comes near them. So that's, you know, chomp. And I also feel like she's, she's had him before, since before when you know, her life was happy. Her dad was there, her mom was alive. And so she really clings to him and the whale so much because it's a reminder of the life she had before her father went to prison. Um, the whale is, yeah. I just think he is also, he's very similar too. He's just like that grumpy pet. Like he loves her too, but you know, he's also obsessed with food all the time and gives her a hard time. And I guess I that's just like the relationship I have with my dad.<laugh> well, very authentic for a whale. Like how many thousands of pounds of fish does a whale have to eat every day? Like you can just imagine this is gonna take up a lot of brain power for a whale. Right. I mean, yeah. But he could have really left at any time and he chose to stay with her. And so that does say a lot, but yeah, he is hungry all the time. So he does complain about that a lot.<laugh><laugh> um, and you mentioned that you weren't sure like why you gave Jen this particular power superpower of talking to animals and controlling animals. Um, and that I loved both of the, the kind of superpower. So we've got Jen who can talk to animals. We've got castor and polls who both can control the weather, but it's, they use like vials full of weather to do. It's really fascinating the way that the magic works and really clever, I loved poll's violin. And like, again, there was just so many surprises throughout this book. Um, how much do you think about, um, the magic system as it pertains to the world as a whole? Or is it one of those that you're just kind of let it develop as you go and now what does the plot need? Okay. We'll add in a little bit of magic here. Um, I definitely wanted to start with magic and again, since it was written in space, I think they actually produced like lightning cannons that were used on their spaceships and then I had to change it, um, to make it more fantasy based. Oh, that's interesting. It wasn't, it wasn't a fantasy sci-fi right.<laugh> no, she actually like, yeah, they were selling weaponry that wouldn't attach, she didn't talk to animals. Um, I know she, well, she had the whale, so yeah, I think she could, she had a space whale that was kind of like the worm<laugh> it was like, I pictured like the worm from dune, like in the old movie that like flies the, you know, connects to space. So it flies really fast.<laugh> um, I know<laugh> like going back to I'm like, oh yeah, that's why I did that. So, um, she, she could only, they were bottling the lightning and selling it so she could cast would run out of it if she didn't have enough. So I had to kind of create that same magic in a fantasy way, um, that they would still bottle and sell it. Yeah. Cause that was like the basis for their business. Was it difficult limiting the magic because it, it feels like one of those worlds where anything is possible, like in theory, anything could crop up in this world at any point, and you've just kind of established for the reader. Like just go with it. Um, did you feel like you had to ever pull it back or like tame the magic to make it more? I don't know, controllable for you. I love making rules and barriers for my character, so yes<laugh>. OK. Cause I'm like you need, cause I want bad things to happen to them. So, um, I, you know, you need to have limits and if they can just do whatever they want. Um, it's too easy. So if castor runs outta lightning, she's kind of nothing. If she, you know, um, if her stores reach their limit, then she doesn't really have anything to fight with. And that puts her in a top spot or if she has to look at her other resources, um, for Jen, if she can't, you know, connect with the creature, if it's too stubborn or, um, you know, there's too many of'em, then she can't handle it and it overloads her. So there's that aspect. I can give her trouble because otherwise she would just burn through the labor so quickly. Mm-hmm<affirmative> so I I'm like, yeah, make more rules. And I have to say in the second book I have some of their little disabilities create some serious drama to my very last question before our round excited to book. So this was the first book where I had, it was on contract. I had deadlines. Um, and I usually am the kind of person where no one will ever look at one of I books until it's on its third draft, but I didn't really have the time for that. So I pulled out the first draft, you know, got it in on deadline. I think it was like a week. And then, um, my editors, like this is really good. And I was like, oh, thank goodness. You're not gonna cancel my contract. Cause I thought it was terrible.<laugh> that's always a good, a good feeling. A big release. Um, yeah, right. There was a big round, like a big round of edits for the first, um, pass. But, um, you know, it was like really good getting that feedback early on. Like that helped me shape it into a much better draft. The second one. So we're on the third round now and it's actually due July 11th and then that's it. We're going to, I won't see it again until copy edits so exciting. I know it's coming out a little sooner than a year actually. So they've got it planned for March. Oh, nice. Short schedule never feels that way, but<laugh> I know, I think it's good for readers because it is tough as you know, when you read a book months ago and then the sequel comes out and you're like, oh, I can't remember anything to happen. Yeah, no, I know. I wish that I could write books faster just to get them in reader's hands quicker. Like as a reader, I hate having to wait. And so I just wish that I could just hear, have another book a month has gone. Well, I have same<laugh> all right. Are you ready for the bonus round? Yes. Music or silence music, but no words, cake or pie cake writing in the morning or writing at night writing at night. What is your favorite writing snack or beverage? Um, I drink a lot of spark wing water.<laugh> I do too.<laugh> would you rather be able to control animals or control the weather? Oh, weather. I was a huge fan of Xmen and storm back in the day. Oh, she was my favorite. I was obsessed with storm of the 10 labors assigned to Jen and castor. If you had to try to tackle one, which one would you pick? Oh, um, probably catching behind and tell people what the behind is. Oh, okay. So in the original, it was a very fast antelope in mind. It's a very fast ship. That's been stolen that they have to return. What is your favorite thing about being a writer? Um, you know, I, um, okay.<laugh> um, just creating new worlds and using my imagination. Um, I have anxiety, so I used to spend a lot of time worrying about the world and now I can worry about fictional things instead. That's a good answer.<laugh> what is one small thing that brings you a lot of joy? Um, my family, I dunno if that counts as a small thing, but I'll accept it. Small thing. Um, well I really love, hello kitty. I collect hello, kitty stuff. So that's what book makes you happy? Um, shades of magic by that whole series by the Schwab. I love her. Mm-hmm<affirmative> what are you working on next? Which I guess we kind of talked about a little, we did, but I'm working on something new to present as my option book after this Sequel's done. So, um, I it's gonna be like a fantasy, but more modern. I kind of wanna set it in like the 1920s, but in a fictional place. So I'm working on that. Oh, fun. Lastly, where can people find you? Um, I have Twitter as at Mrs. M I S S U S M. I'm on TikTok at Rachel R a C H E L underscore rights underscore books and on Instagram at Menard. Rachel. Awesome. Thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you so much for having me. Um, and truly, I hope that readers who are mythology fans and fantasy fans will go check out this book. It is one of my favorites that I have read recently. Oh, thank you so much. Uh, so readers on that note, definitely check out game of strength and storm it is available. Now, of course, we encourage you to support your local indie bookstore. If you don't have a local indie, you can check out our affiliate store at bookshop.org/slash Marisa Meer. Next week, I will be chatting with Rebecca Barrow about her Erie murder, mystery, bad things happen here. If you're enjoying these conversations, please subscribe and follow us on Instagram at Marisa Meer author and at happy writer podcast until next time stay healthy, stay cozy and whatever life throws you today. I hope that now you're feeling a little bit happier.