A New Alice in Wonderland Retelling with Sara Ella - The Wonderland Trials

Marissa chats with Sara Ella about her new Alice-inspired retelling - THE WONDERLAND TRIALS - as well as some of the unique challenges that come with writing retellings, such as deciding what liberties you can take with the original source material that will both surprise and satisfy your readers; keeping a checklist to ensure you're being true to your vision and including all the ideas and details you care most about; the simple joy of leaving "Easter eggs" in the text for readers to discover; why writing puzzles and riddles in book format (as opposed to the big screen) can be so bloody difficult!; the importance of putting restrictions and weaknesses into your worldbuilding and magic system, even when that world is based on nonsense and impossibilities; and a bonus non-writing topic: What it's like to play a beloved character at Walt Disney World!

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:10

Hello, and welcome to the happy writer. This is a podcast that aims to bring readers, more books to enjoy and to help authors find more joy in their writing. I am your host, Marisa Myer. Thank you for joining me. There have been lots and lots of things making me happy this week. I will admit it was one of those weeks where it was difficult, trying to pick just one thing to talk about. Uh, but I think the biggest one is that, uh, I just got back from a girl's weekend. I had four of my best girlfriends, some that I have been friends with since sixth grade. Um, some of my longtime besties, uh, including a few that I had not seen them since before COVID. So we all went over to Eastern Washington and spent a weekend going in the lake and drinking some wine and sitting in the hot tub and just chatting so much and getting all caught up on each other's lives. And it was very therapeutic and very relaxing. And it was just such a joy to get, to see some long time friends that I had kind of fallen out of touch with. So that brought me a ridiculous amount of joy this weekend. Of course, I am also so happy to be talking to today's guest. She's the author of the unblemished trilogy and the little mermaid retelling coral, her newest young adult. The Wonderland trials came out last week. Please. Welcome Sarah Ella.

Speaker 2: 1:47

Hi Marisa. Thank you so much for having me.

Speaker 1: 1:49

Thank you so much for joining me. Congratulations on your new book coming out.

Speaker 2: 1:54

Thank you so much.

Speaker 1: 1:56

I was very, very excited. I think people know that I'm a fan of retellings and I'm particularly a fan of Alice in Wonderland and all things, Alice. So it was a joy to read this book and I'm just so excited to talk about it. There's so much to dig into.

Speaker 2: 2:12

Well, I'm thrilled to be talking to you because you have always been one of my favorite authors. You are the queen of retellings. So this is an honor for me.

Speaker 1: 2:21

Aw, thank you. And me without my crown<laugh> um, why don't we start with the question that we of course ask every guest. I would love to hear your author origin story. This is your, I wanna say your fifth book, if I'm counting correctly, how did you get here? Yes.

Speaker 2: 2:40

Oh gosh. I feel like it's such a cliche thing to say. I've always been a writer. Uh, but I think it's true. I have loved writing since I was a kid. I hate math. Marisa math is the literal worst subject. And so, uh, English was just like the subject that easier to me. I understood the way, you know, sentence diagramming and the way words go together. I do not understand numbers in the same way. I understand words. So it was just something I gravitated towards. I would write little poems, uh, and things for class assignments. I think one time in particular, when I was in middle school, I decided that there needed to be an American girl like series. Do you remember the American girl series, but I do, Um, there needed to be one about a girl named rose. I know. So original who sailed on the Titanic and<laugh> they needed to yes. Where did I get that idea?<laugh> um, and they needed to have this book series. And so, um, I actually wrote to the American girl doll company at the time and told them that they needed to have this. Of course they kindly, that was my first rejection letter that I ever got was from the pleasant company and as what it was called at the time. And so, uh, I decided to write it myself. And so I wrote it on notebook paper and somewhere in a box in a, in the garage somewhere is that retelling of Rose's story as an American girl.

Speaker 1: 4:17

<laugh> I love that I'm baffled that they didn't take you up on this<laugh>

Speaker 2: 4:21

I know it was

Speaker 1: 4:22

Such a

Speaker 2: 4:24

Yes, exactly. It was such an original idea. So, um, from there, I mean, I loved, I had great literature teachers in high school and loved to write loved doing creative writing, particularly I was not a fan of research. Uh, at the time I love research. Now I love researching as a writer because we get to research, uh, the worlds we want to create, but researching things that, you know, that is required for an essay in school was not my favorite. Uh, but, uh, I went on from there and just fell in love with reading, fell in love with the Harry Potter books. But it really wasn't until I would say in my early twenties, when I had a, you know, a baby and I was trying to find things to do in the small town where I lived at the time and our library was actually in a basement because they were renovating the library building. And so I would walk my little girl down there. I think she was about two or three years old and I would go find a book and the librarian would just start recommending books to me. That's actually how I discovered the lunar Chronicles.

Speaker 1: 5:32

Oh, oh, how fun.

Speaker 2: 5:34

Yeah. And so, uh, that just, I just, I loved it. I loved the world. I wanted to write one of my own. And so that's really when I started kind of imagining the idea for unblemished and that trilogy and, uh, I started entering contests and eventually went to a writer's conference and pitched to a few different agents. And I ended up getting offered representation by one of them. And six months later, it was three days before my 30th birthday. I said, I wanted my first contract before I turned 30. And I got the phone call that I was being offered a three book contract for the emblems trilogy.

Speaker 1: 6:14

Oh my gosh. Was that so exciting to actually not only get the contract, but like I did it, I hit the goal so close<laugh>.

Speaker 2: 6:23

Yes, absolutely. It was it, you know, when you get your first contract, it's like your star guide and this is the greatest thing ever. And then the real work begins. So

Speaker 1: 6:32

Yeah, it's true. It true. It's it feels like it should be the end of the journey, but it's really more the beginning.<laugh>

Speaker 2: 6:40

Right, exactly. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 6:44

Um, I think it's fascinating, uh, that you talk about how much you hated math, because of course, we're gonna be talking about your Alison Wonderland, retelling and Louis car being a mathematician.<laugh> like, there's actually fair amount of math involved in Alison Wonderland, but it's so tricky. Yes<laugh> and I think it's so interesting having asked this question now to a number of authors, um, that it is not an uncommon occurrence to hear someone say, oh, I just become a parent. And I had a new baby or a toddler in the house and was like, I need something to do. So I'm gonna go write a book. And I always find that baffling because I remember my kids being young and I just like, I was well into my career by that point. So I had deadlines and contracts and things, but I was like, why would anyone start writing a book right now? This is so stressful.<laugh>

Speaker 2: 7:40

It was definitely a lot. There were times when I had, you know, a baby on a BPI, you know, those BPI pills that like go around your waist, uh, in my lap. And I would like type over her mm-hmm<affirmative>. So I would have like my laptop, like in front of me and type over her. Uh, but I think it was really due to the fact that my mom's dream, uh, before she passed away, was to open a coffee shop and she never got to fulfill that dream because she always kind of put it off for us kids. And I was so grateful for that, but at the same time, I didn't wanna keep putting off my dream forever. I was like, if I'm gonna do this, I have to do it now. Mm-hmm,

Speaker 1: 8:20

<affirmative> no, that's a great point. And I do think, you know, parenting comes with just like some built in guilt sometimes. And I know for me, there are definitely times where I think, oh, I shouldn't be going on book tour. I should, you know, be staying home with my kids, et cetera. Uh, but then I also hope that my children will recognize how cool it is to have a parent that just loves what they do. And like to see the joy that my work brings me. I hope that they'll then be inspired by that when it comes time for them to figure out what they wanna do.

Speaker 2: 8:58

Exactly. I still agree with all of

Speaker 1: 9:00

That. Yeah. Um, do I hear children in the background right now?

Speaker 2: 9:05

Yes, that is, that is my son. I, my oldest daughter is, um, keeping him occupied right now and I'm like texting her as we're talking. Okay.

Speaker 1: 9:16

<laugh>, don't worry about it is a part of the life<laugh>. Um, so of course we are here to talk about your newest novel. Would you please tell listeners a little bit about the Wonderland trials?

Speaker 2: 9:31

Absolutely. So the Wonderland trials is obviously a retelling of Allison Wonderland and, uh, the idea started with kind of wanting to take my own twist on it, but with a focus on the game aspect of the story. So it's very heavily focused on card playing and the different kind of game parts that you see in Allison Wonderland. Obviously you have, uh, the game of chess and that won't really show up more until book two and then you have croquet. And then of course the cards. And so I wanted to create a world that was really focused on, on the games, on the trials. And so it, it kind of just blossomed from there. I don't, uh, I don't outline. So the book that it started out to be is very different from the book it ended up as now. It is very much about the trials and Alice who, uh, lives in our world. She, she was raised in Oxford, uh, discovering that, uh, there, that she is invited to join the Wonderland trials. And in this world that I've created, there are normals and there are wonders and wonders have this special wonder gene, uh, that allow them to do have these special abilities. They, they react to tea differently. And so there's some kind of magical kind of aspect. I don't wanna give away spoilers, but with that, when they drink tea. And so Alice kind of gets wrapped up in this world and she doesn't know who to trust. Uh, she she's been looking for her parents. She wants to know what happened to her parents. She was raised by her sister and it's kind of a learning experience for her because she's never really had any friends. She's always been a loner. Uh, she likes to play cards. And so she's been saving up money going to these, uh, illegal card tournaments. And there's a lot of, there's the theme of found family in there where, where she, she finds the family that she's been missing her whole life. And then of course it wouldn't be one of my books without a little bit of romance in there too.

Speaker 1: 11:36

Hmm. I feel the same way. There's always a little, gotta be a little bit<laugh>. Yes. Uh, and I very much enjoyed, uh, the, the love interest, chess, AKA chess Shire, which I think is such a clever name. I love that so much.<laugh>

Speaker 2: 11:52

Oh, thank you so much. He's my favorite

Speaker 1: 11:54

<laugh> yeah, no, he was a really, really fun character. Okay. So I, you mentioned how the book that it ended up being was very, very different from the original draft. And I'm so curious, like I know it can be hard to remember sometimes, but do you remember, like, what was so different about it or how it changed

Speaker 2: 12:16

A few, a few, a little bit, uh, I mean, currently chapter four, uh, was chapter one and it just wasn't the right place to start. There was always gonna be that card game that like a legal tournament in there, uh, in big hero six when hero Homa goes to like the bot fighting tournament. Mm-hmm,<affirmative>, that's kind of what inspired that scene, where she's going to this like illegal event. And, um, but other than that, I mean, originally she was being raised by her dad and I just, I don't know, what is it about why it it's like, uh, it, it, it gave her too much, uh, of a person to rely on if her dad was in the picture, you know what I mean? Like I needed to remove him and, uh, just have her being raised by her sister. And it that's, that's really what, what fit, I'm a discovery writer. So I kind of discover from there, I think originally there was gonna be like a sense of betrayal where Alice wasn't a wonder, but she's been lying to her team the whole time saying she was a wonder and she's betrayed them all. And that's nothing to do with the books.<laugh>

Speaker 1: 13:26

I love that. Cuz I know I, I do outline and yet somehow my books, the final draft always ends up being so different from that first draft or that first plan. Uh, and I just always think it's fascinating to hear how other writers, like it's not just me. Right. We all kind of have to have that exploratory journey and get those initial ideas out. And only then at least for me, do I feel like, okay, now I have an idea of what I'm trying to say and it's all gonna change, but at least I have a path now

Speaker 2: 14:00

That's really interesting, uh, to hear that you outline, but your, your story changes too. That makes me feel a lot better.<laugh>

Speaker 1: 14:07

Yes it does. And at least like for me, I'll start writing and then realize, okay, we're totally going off the rails and then I'll adjust the outline. So like I'll adjust the outline as I go. Uh, but it does, it does still kind of take on mind of its own tends to

Speaker 2: 14:24

Interesting.

Speaker 1: 14:25

Yeah. Um, okay. So we of course have both written Allison Wonderland, retellings, and also other retellings. You did the little mermaid and I've of course done a bunch of fairy tales. Um, but I felt when I was writing heartless, uh, which is my book based on Alice Wonderland, for me, there were a lot of just really interesting and unique challenges specific to Alice and the world of Wonderland and Louis. Carol's just like absolutely amazing brain and all the things that he created. Um, but I wanna hear from you and your perspective, what do you feel were some of the, um, challenges to tackling this particular story?

Speaker 2: 15:10

Well, or, well, I think with any retelling, and maybe you find this too, like you have to separate yourself from reader expectations, not completely because you wanna meet those expectations, but there are gonna be different types of expectations. So there are gonna be the readers who expect the Disney version. And that is that, that is the version they want is the Disney version of Allison Wonderland or the little mermaid or Cinderella or, or whatever it is that they grew up with. And then you're gonna have readers who want you to stay true to the original mm-hmm<affirmative> and you know, those can be very different. Yeah. They can be for sure, a very, very different, and there are sometimes multiple originals of certain versions of fairy tales. And so trying to kind of navigate that, I found it really helpful, uh, when, when researching to, to write the story, to listen to, it used to be called the Disney story origins podcast. But now I think it's called the, the cinema story origins pod podcast. And that was really helpful to me, uh, because he breaks down like the Disney version and, and like parallels it with the original. So he'll like play a clip from the Disney version. He's like, okay. And the Disney version, this is what happens, but this is actually, you know, in the, through the looking glass, it's not even in Ellis's adventures in Wonderland, it's in the second book. And so trying to kind of navigate, okay, well this is going to be, you know, two books, how am I going to fit all of this in there? And what can I leave out? And what, what will readers absolutely not forgive me for re leaving out<laugh> and like, what can I take liberties with? And what can I, you know, just have, you know, noded to, as opposed to somebody being a main character and so kind of navigating all that. I I'm very much a checklist person, so I'm not an outliner, but I do have a checklist that I keep of things that are important for me. And it grows as I'm writing, uh, important things to include, especially in a retelling. So, uh, you know, little things as I'm reading the original to research beforehand and just kind of pointing out, okay, well, I need these these elements, but how am I gonna make them my own and how am I going to use them and how are they gonna fit in my particular world? Because you, and, you know, especially like with heartless and trying to kind of navigate all the nonsense surrounding<laugh> Alice in Wonderland and trying to make sense of it all. Because if you, if you read it just for face value at the, the nonsense level of Alice's in Wonderland and through the looking glass, it may just seem like a silly children's story, but there's actually so much as, you know, depth, uh, and hidden meaning in the story. And just trying to find how, how does that work? How does that fit into my world and kind of going along and just like letting the story take shape as I wrote, I think even though that's generally my process, you know, there's a lot of stress that comes with trying to make sure that you're, you're including it all, but that it makes sense mm-hmm<affirmative> within the world you're creating and that you're not just including it because it's in the original.

Speaker 1: 18:27

No, that's, that's a really good point. And I love that you pointed out the, the, the nonsense aspect, because I feel like for me tackling the world of Wonderland, like trying to lean into that nonsense, and yet still have a story with a plot<laugh> and have a story that makes sense in a world that has its own rules. It was a really difficult thing to balance. And that was for me, definitely one of the more challenging aspects of Wonderland in general, because you want to, you wanna pay homage, Louis Carroll just was so brilliant with all the world wordplay and the riles and all of this, but it is a difficult property to take on and to feel like, okay, I can let my imagination run wild, and I can have things that are quote unquote impossible, but you also has to make sense to your reader. Like you need your reader to be able to follow along,

Speaker 2: 19:26

Right. You can't just use the impossible scenario as like a, a cop out, you know what I mean? Yeah. And, and that's really, really, the challenge is making sense of that nonsense. And of course you did it beautifully and heartless. You just, it it's a masterpiece. It broke my heart. It's masterpiece

Speaker 1: 19:49

There. Like, have you ever taken your checklist or one of your checklists and like put it on social media? Cause I think that's such a great way to kind of, to be a non outline writer, but you still have a plan. You still have ideas of what you wanna include. And I've never heard that before. I think that's genius.

Speaker 2: 20:11

Uh, well thank you. I I've never actually thought about putting it on social media. That's actually a really good idea cuz I do not only post about books on social media, but a but about writing too. And I have a lot of people ask me questions about writing. So that might be, I don't know if they could make sense of it.<laugh> it's, it's all very like, you know, just quick little notes to myself, especially as I'm revising, like include this quote in chapter two somehow or, you know, especially with the, the unique Wonderland words, like, you know, find a way to include Kalu clay in the story. Like nobody, what does that even mean?<laugh>

Speaker 1: 20:49

Right, right, right. No, I love that. And I I'm such a list person. I'm a checklist person. Mm-hmm<affirmative>, there's nothing feels better than checking off a list.

Speaker 2: 20:57

Exactly.<laugh>

Speaker 1: 20:59

So you mentioned this podcast that you listen to, which I was not familiar, but it sounds so up my aisle. Um, what other, like how many times did you go back and actually read Alice in Wonderland and Alice through the looking glass?

Speaker 2: 21:14

Oh, goodness gracious. Probably at least three times. I mean, yeah. You know, you read through, you wanna read through it like once and then with having it constantly by my, by my computer while I was writing, I mean, you go through and you flip through and uh, I had different copies that I worked with and just whatever copy inspired me. I have, I think 12, 13 copies of Alison. Oh wow. At this point. So whatever copy was inspiring me at the time I would go flip through or I'd flip through the ebook when I was searching for something when I wasn't home. And uh, so probably at least three times from start to finish.

Speaker 1: 21:55

Yeah. No. And I, I mean, I could tell you the writing and you mentioned how you kind of had like little nods to the story and there's so many fun, little Easter eggs in this book and like tiny little details, references the names. Like I loved how you incorporated the mock turtle. Um, but did it like a really smart way. And for me, like I could tell that there was a lot of respect given to the original source material and a lot of love for it and people who are Alice nerds, like it's just so fun to see all of these little hints and references.

Speaker 2: 22:37

Oh, thank you. I'm so glad you picked up on those. I'm a huge Easter egg person, you know, me and my family are the one who like to find all the different Easter eggs and Disney movies and things like that. So yeah. It's really fun for me to be, be able to include those things in my books.

Speaker 1: 22:52

Yeah. No, I think for anybody doing a retelling, I do think it's one of the, the joys of doing retelling because it kind of makes you feel like you're in, on the inside joke a little bit.

Speaker 2: 23:03

Mm-hmm<affirmative> exactly.

Speaker 1: 23:06

All right. Talk to me about the trials. So we have our character, Alice who gets, you know, invited to participate, participate in the Wonderland trials. How did you go about coming up with the various trials and the riles, the games, the puzzles, uh, and just figuring out how you were all gonna make that work in the story.

Speaker 2: 23:32

That was a huge challenge because I didn't want it to come off cheesy, but I wanted it to make sense. And so the little riles, especially that they have to deal with, uh, throughout the story, I'm like, I want these to actually make sense and that it would be something that if you were asked a riddle that you would, you know, figure out the answer in real life. And so that was the huge challenge. I have the four trials, uh, based on the four card suits. So you have team heart team spade, team diamond and team club. And each of them are competing in the four trials. And each trial is, uh, kind of designed by the head of each of those teams. So the first trial they enter is the spade trial. And so that was kind of, you know, it might ode to, uh, riles and escape rooms. And that was something that was really fun. I really wanted to explore all aspects of like different games that people would recognize. Uh, and so Alice, of course she has, she kind of has the list of games that she, she sees in a particular book that she ends up finding. And so she's kind of going through each of these trials kind of like figuring out, okay, well what's the catch because not everything is necessarily what it seems and the trials. And so the trick is just trying to figure out, uh, how to solve the riles and clues and what they actually mean. And sometimes they have multiple meanings. And so that took several different revisions kind of trying to fit it all together to the point that it made sense. And I hope it actually does make sense.<laugh>

Speaker 1: 25:14

Did you ever like get to where, you know, you you've maybe written the riddle or you've written to where the characters have entered into this particular part of the challenge and then you are stuck and were, were you ever like, but I have no idea what the answer is here.

Speaker 2: 25:35

Yes, yes. I did. Like when I wrote the riles, um, for the spade trial, I remember, uh, talking to my, my best writer friend, Nadine Brandis. And I was like, well, I wrote the answers to these riles, but I have no idea how to include them in the actual trial<laugh> and what that looks like. And I didn't want it to be the obvious thing that people that people would expect. And so that was kind of the same thing then with the diamond trial and so forth and just kind of trying to figure out what will readers expect and how can I give them something else.

Speaker 1: 26:11

Yeah. Now I think that writing riles and puzzles is one of the most difficult things that we can include in a book. Um, and from some, like, I love like Indiana Jones and like these, you know, the Goonies or movies in which there's that like puzzle solving aspect or tr you know, I guess treasure hunting aspect, but you know, where there's riles and clues and things. And I just love that, but I think it's a different monster trying to tackle it in book form when you don't have the visuals to kind of help you out.

Speaker 2: 26:49

Exactly. We just, re-watched national treasurer for the 4th of July, and it's just brilliant how they're fitting all these clues together in history and it it's fun. And you like the idea of it until you actually have to do it on paper.<laugh> right.

Speaker 1: 27:03

<laugh>, that's exactly, exactly how I would describe that. Um, you mentioned escape rooms and the book and the trials. They definitely have that vibe of like these characters being trapped in an escape room. Do you do a lot of escape rooms? Like, is that kind of a real world, uh, inspiration that you were drawing from?

Speaker 2: 27:31

I would love to say that I have been to multiple escape rooms and this is a hobby of mine and that I did so much research by going to escape rooms. I have never been to an escape room,

Speaker 1: 27:43

Really,

Speaker 2: 27:45

Really my daughter. I

Speaker 1: 27:47

Surprised,

Speaker 2: 27:49

Well, you

Speaker 1: 27:49

Would love it. You have to find a way to do it. Cause I can just tell that you would love it.

Speaker 2: 27:55

Thank you. I really want to, I actually do have tickets to do that clued up Allison Wonderland. It's not an escape room, but it's like an outdoor yeah. Like clue finding scavenger hunt. That that is like all over the country right now. And I'm gonna do that in Phoenix, in January, and I'm super excited, but I think I definitely need to just make my family go to an escape room with me.

Speaker 1: 28:17

Yeah, no, they're super, super fun. I love them. Let's talk world building because the way that you created Wonderland, and I'm trying to think how I can word this without, cause I don't wanna spoil anything of course. Um, but it kind of like overlays the real world London and there's this, this concept in the book that when people are in Wonderland, when wonders are in Wonderland, they can create anything based off of the power of their own imagination. Um, and as I was reading, I, I was like, well, that's the coolest superpower<laugh> I've ever heard of.<laugh>. Um, and I love this concept and I love what you do with it. Uh, but I also, as a writer, I mean kind of coming back to the idea of like nonsense can actually make things really difficult for a writer. I think similarly it you're setting yourself up for a particular challenge when anything could happen, our imagination can create anything. How did you kind of work with that while still having, uh, you know, like logical restrictions on the, the story and the world

Speaker 2: 29:37

That, that is such a good question. You know, I wish I could explain my process in a formula so that other writers listening could know. I know when I listen to other writers talking on podcasts, I'm like, just tell me how to do it and then I'll know how to do it. And I won't have to figure it out. Uh, it was hard, you know, you have to keep your own rules, you have to have them make sense, so that they're believable. And so that you're not just doing whatever you want, you know, even in, in Harry Potter, you see that where they, you know, it's like, well, they have magic, they can do it, whatever they want<laugh>. But at the same time, like there are rules to there's rules to the magic, there's different levels of abilities within that world. And so with the Wonderland trials and some of this will be revealed in the sequel, but just kind of trying to figure out, okay, what can a wonder do when they are in Wonderland? And is it BA it's kind of based on like how practiced they are using the wonder gene and their abilities. And it's kind of the same way with like our talents, right? As like writers, even, uh, we get better at our abilities over time. We don't just, you know, walk out with our first book and it's the best book we've ever written. I, I would hope at least that my books and my writing get, gets better at over time. And so that's kind of the way it works with the wonder gene. Like, if you're born with the wonder gene, you have the, this ability to have special abilities, but at the same time, it's something you have to practice and learn, uh, and grow as, as you go on

Speaker 1: 31:09

Mm-hmm<affirmative> did you ever feel like, was there ever a time, a time when you were writing it when you really wanted to do something, but you felt like no, that's gonna be pushing the impossible element too far or the nonsense element too far? Um, I should probably like reel that in or were you just like, Nope, it's Wonderland. I'm going for it.

Speaker 2: 31:37

I'm sure that there was, you know, the book changes so much over the course of writing and revising. I'm trying to think if there's anything in particular that ended up being changed or just kind of honed in. I think, I think more than anything, it was just kind of trying to keep the world within the boundaries of what would it be like if you lived, you were able to live or visit, uh, within a virtual reality, but it was created by your own mind. So you don't need virtual reality glasses or anything like that, but it's, it can be created by your own mind. And what are the rules of that virtual reality. But I can't think of a particular time in which I'm sure there's something that changed, but I don't have any examples.

Speaker 1: 32:22

Well, I think it is such a cool concept and there's one scene where Alice and some of the other characters are like using this power to get dressed. And I'm like, oh my gosh, I so wish that I could just like picture a gown and I'm wearing it. Like, that would be the best<laugh> right. So like I wanna repaint my house. Boom, done how easy that would be.

Speaker 2: 32:45

Yeah. That was a lot of fun to write. And then trying to like follow the rules in, in that scene, like, okay, well, if they can create whatever clothes they want or, or transform their clothes in this way with their minds, what's the rules of that. And I think even Maddie had her at one point says like, uh, she gives Alice a ribbon and it's like a concrete, like normal, real world ribbon that won't fade. And, uh, because whatever they create with their minds does eventually end up fading. And that kind of was one of the rule, the rules that came into play there.

Speaker 1: 33:18

Yeah. No, I'm glad you pointed that out because it is. Yeah. It's one of those elements that I feel is so important, you know, cuz we do talk a lot about how, whether it's magic systems or world building or whatever it is, like there has to be rules. Um, but there also has to be weaknesses and that's kind of what, uh, ends up bringing in a lot of suspense to our plot. So I always think that's a good reminder for writers that like, you know, don't just put in rules, but also put in things that are gonna make it a little bit more difficult for your characters.

Speaker 2: 33:52

Exactly.

Speaker 1: 33:53

Yeah. Um, I would love to switch topics a little bit because your bio while a little vague, um, am I interpreting correctly that you were a Disney world cast member and may have been a friend of Alice?

Speaker 2: 34:14

I was a friend of Alice during my college program time at Disney world. And it was a lot of fun.

Speaker 1: 34:23

I love that I have, um, it hasn't been announced yet, so I'm probably not supposed to talk about it, but I'm gonna talk about it anyway.<laugh> um, I have a graphic novel coming out, uh, about a girl that wants to be a character actor at a theme park. That's exciting. So this is a one of those topics that I get so excited when I meet people who have done it. Um, could you talk at all about that experience? I don't know what the rules are as far as how much you can talk about it.

Speaker 2: 34:51

Well, you know, the it's been goodness gracious. It's been over 15 years and I don't work for Disney anymore, so they can't fire me.<laugh> there is bad about it. Um, you know, I mean I try to keep the magic alive for kids, but I know a lot of adults like this, they wanna do it too. This is their dream. How, how does it go? And so there's obviously an audition process and they, you know, make sure that you look similar to the characters. I I'm fortunate enough to be short enough to play Alice, but not tall enough to play a Disney princess. And uh, there's a whole, you know, you have to do the accent and you have to sing and dance and kind of go through this whole audition process. And then eventually you try on the try on the costume and the wig and all of that. And then once you get cast as a particular called face characters, which is different from the fuzzy characters, which I also did, uh, there's a whole training process where you have to like watch the film and to take notes of like different lines. And so there's, they give you like a list of quotes that they want you to use, uh, or insert naturally when you're talking to park guests and they teach you how they give you makeup to use, you provide your own like foundation and stuff, but they give you the certain color palettes to use that's specific so that everybody looks uniform so that you don't have a Alice walking out with red lipstick and another one walking out with purple lipstick. You know, you have to use their specific color palette. They teach you how to, to put on the wig and, and all of that. And then once you, once you know how to do it, then when, when it's your day and it's your shift, you go to the, the costing, uh, area at the park backstage and you, you pick a wig and you get your, your costume, that's the right size and you get ready there, they have mirrors set up and then, uh, you go to your location and they actually ask you if you are a face character in the park to like wear almost like when you're going into the park to go into the park, like disguised, like to wear it at and sunglasses so that people don't recognize you or guests don't recognize you, you know, like as, when you're in your normal, when you're in your normal street clothes. And so that was kind of fun. Uh, just kind of, it makes you feel like a little celebrity within yes. Within that world.<laugh>

Speaker 1: 37:24

Oh my gosh. That's so, so fun. What a cool experience.

Speaker 2: 37:29

Yeah, it was.

Speaker 1: 37:30

Was there anything from your time at Disney world that influenced the book?

Speaker 2: 37:39

I think just my love for Alice, you know, I've loved Alice since I was a little girl I've collected Alice things and, and copies of Louis Carol's original for years. And so it's kind of feels like coming, coming full circle, I guess, uh, being at Disney world and then particularly working at Epcot in the UK, it just really made me want to write a, uh, a story that was set in England.

Speaker 1: 38:07

I love that. I absolutely love that. Um, yeah. I could talk to you about that all day, but we won't<laugh> are you ready for our bonus round?

Speaker 2: 38:18

Absolutely.

Speaker 1: 38:20

A feeling. I know what your answer to this first one is gonna be, but tea or coffee.

Speaker 2: 38:26

I want to say tea. I love tea. I collect tea. I have tea tins everywhere, but my go-to drink is going always going to be coffee.

Speaker 1: 38:37

Okay. See, I was wrong. This is why I should never make assumptions.<laugh> writing in a computer or writing in a notebook.

Speaker 2: 38:45

Oh, a computer. A hundred percent

Speaker 1: 38:48

Sunny beach or snowy mountains.

Speaker 2: 38:51

Sunny beach. I do not like snow.

Speaker 1: 38:54

If the Wonderland trials had a theme song, what would it be?

Speaker 2: 38:59

Welcome to Wonderland by Ansen zebra is the theme song.

Speaker 1: 39:05

Would you rather play cricket or have a tea party?

Speaker 2: 39:09

Oh, have a tea party.

Speaker 1: 39:12

Magic cake or magic mushrooms.

Speaker 2: 39:16

Oh, magic cake. Definitely. Who would choose mushrooms over cake?

Speaker 1: 39:20

I think there are people<laugh>.

Speaker 2: 39:25

I'm sure there are.

Speaker 1: 39:27

Why is a Raven like a writing desk?

Speaker 2: 39:32

Well, as you know, from writing heartless, there are multiple answers to that question, but I'm going to go with the answer from the Wonderland trials and say, it's not, it's an impossible riddle to solve.

Speaker 1: 39:45

Do you have any writing rituals?

Speaker 2: 39:48

Yes. I love obvi. I love to get my cup of coffee or tea and I love to light, uh, a candle. I have all sorts of Bush book, bookish candles, uh, on my desk. And I like to write one of them that smells good and inspires me. And when I'm on deadline, my writing ritual is to leave the house.<laugh> where I cannot be interrupted and go to a coffee shop.

Speaker 1: 40:10

That's one of mine too. Leaving the house is like a really important detail to my writing life sometimes.

Speaker 2: 40:16

Yes, yes. You have kids, you know

Speaker 1: 40:18

<laugh> yes. And homeschooling, I saw that you homeschool your kids as well.

Speaker 2: 40:23

Yes I do. Yep. So it's definitely finding that balance, but thankfully, like I have a teenager, so I have like a live-in babysitter.

Speaker 1: 40:31

Oh, poor teenager.

Speaker 2: 40:34

Yes.<laugh> she's a great kid though. That's

Speaker 1: 40:36

Good. How do you feel the creative? Well,

Speaker 2: 40:43

Listening to your podcast is one way I love to listen to other writers and just, it always makes me feel better to know that I'm not alone. Like just listening to other writers, talk or talking to other writers and know that we all, at some point in the writing process or preparing to launch a book, think that this is the worst book that we have ever written and we're going to prove to everyone that we're a fraud and you know, I'm just glad I'm not alone in that. So that really helps me just to listen to, or talk to other writers, uh, and just know that we all go through those same kind of ups and downs of emotions.

Speaker 1: 41:20

Yeah, no, absolutely. I think that's so important. What advice would you give to help someone be a happier writer?

Speaker 2: 41:30

I would say don't feel like you are having to compare yourself to other writers because we're all on similar journeys, but at the same time, my journey is not yours and my success or failures do, do not define yours. And so just because, you know, you have a friend, maybe you've been querying for a while and you have, you know, writer, friends who have gone on to find agent representation or publish their books or get book contracts. And you're still kind of in those query trenches, uh, trying to figure it out. That doesn't mean that you're a bad writer or that you're a failure. Um, it just means that it's just not your time yet. It's, it's such a timing thing. Right. Because it just means that your book hasn't gotten in front of the right person at the right time. Mm. Uh, and so just kind of just remember that don't play the comparison game. You can be happy for other people at the same time feeling disappointed that you're not where you want to be. Uh, but just, just keep pushing through and, and know that the more you write, the better writer you'll become,

Speaker 1: 42:45

What book makes you happy?

Speaker 2: 42:49

Oh, so many books, so many books. I, you know, I feel like it's cliche to say like the lunar Chronicles, because I'm on your podcast, but<laugh>, uh, but it's true. Like, especially CREs, uh, I love that book, but my, I, I love all of Kira CA's books and my happy, happy books, especially in the summer are Casey. West's, uh, contemporary romance stories.

Speaker 1: 43:15

I love her contemporary romances. They bring me a lot of joy too.

Speaker 2: 43:19

Yes.

Speaker 1: 43:21

What are you working on next?

Speaker 2: 43:25

Well, I am waiting for edits back from, from my editor for the sequel to the Wonderland trials, which I cannot talk about the title yet. I was

Speaker 1: 43:34

Gonna ask. OK.

Speaker 2: 43:36

<laugh> yes, we can't. I, my publicist would be not angry, but she would scold me if I revealed it<laugh>. Um, yet, so the sequel to the Wonderland trials will release in 2023, and then I'm working on another project, which actually the day after this podcast comes out, I am allowed to reveal what that project actually is. And I can't say anything anymore about that, but I'm really excited about it.

Speaker 1: 44:04

Okay. Well that will obviously be posted on your socials. I imagine. Yes,<laugh> all right. So that is perfect because the next and final question, where can people find you?

Speaker 2: 44:15

I spend most of my time on, uh, Instagram as far as social media goes. So you can find me at Sarah Ella Wrights on Instagram, uh, and you can visit my website@sarahella.com.

Speaker 1: 44:28

Awesome. Sarah, thank you so much for joining me.

Speaker 2: 44:31

Thank you so much for having me. This was so much fun

Speaker 1: 44:34

Readers, definitely check out the Wonderland trials it is available. Now, of course, we encourage you to support your local indie bookstore. If you don't have a local indie, you can check out our affiliate store at bookshop.org/shop/marisa Meyer. And also, if you didn't notice on our Instagram, we now officially have happy writer, podcast merchandise. Uh, so definitely head to our Instagram where we've got the link posted. All of the stuff is on red bubble. You can get happy writer, tote bags, and coffee mugs, and all sorts of really fun things. So definitely check that out. We have had some changes in the schedule the last couple of days. So I'm actually not entirely sure who I'm gonna be talking to next week, but I think it's going to be Derek chow and we will be talking about his new middle grade, a applied Piper, retelling titled ravenous things. If you're enjoying these conversations, please subscribe and follow us on Instagram at Marissa Meyer author and at happy writer podcast until next time stay healthy, stay cozy and whatever life throws at you today. I hope that now you're feeling a little bit happier.