A Dark Pied Piper Middle Grade Retelling with Derrick Chow - Ravenous Things

Marissa chats with Derrick Chow about his debut middle grade - RAVENOUS THINGS - as well as how fiction, and horror in particular, can help young readers who are experiencing  periods of grief (and how writing fiction can help us work through our own difficult emotions, too); considering the growth and character arcs of not only your protagonist, but supporting characters as well, and how they can all contribute to the larger theme of the story; some great tips on writing a character who has an unusual way of speaking, such as the importance of reading that character's dialogue out loud to keep it feeling natural; deciding whether your new idea is best suited to an illustrated or prose format; and why you might want to step back from a manuscript that is giving you lots of trouble to work on something else for a while - even if you've had interest from an agent.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:11

Hello, and welcome to the happy writer. This is a podcast that aims to bring readers, more books to enjoy and to help authors find more joy in their writing. I am your host Marisa Meyer. Thank you for joining me. One thing that is making me happy this week is that one of my daughters, Delaney has been really super into snakes and lizards and kinda just like reptiles of all shapes and sizes. And this is a passion of hers that has been brewing for a couple of years now. Um, I'm not entirely sure where it started or where it came from, but like she loves those coyote Peterson videos on YouTube. She's obsessed with it. Uh, and she keeps like wanting to check out snake themed, early readers from the library and all of this. And so a couple of days ago, we decided to take the girls up to the reptil zoo, which is in Monroe, Washington. Um, and it's one of those places. It's like, it's right off the freeway. It's got this very like tourist trap vibe to it. Um, but nevertheless, they have a really impressive collection of reptiles. There's a couple of alligators, there's a two-headed turtle. So that led to some really interesting conversations. There are Iwas and geckos and about a gazillion different kinds of snakes, um, including a king Cobra, which gave me the chills, but it was also so cool. And Delaney was just absolutely in seventh heaven, seeing all of the different reptiles there. And she knew so much about them from all of these videos and these things that she's been watching. So it was like at every, uh, exhibit she's telling us all about the, the snakes and where it comes from. And it was just really cool, kind of seeing this passion light up inside of her. So who knows how long this interest will last, but I just got an absolute kick out of watching her. I am also of course, so happy to be talking to today's guest. He is a writer, a comic creator, and an illustrator whose work has been featured in multiple newspapers, magazines, and anthologies, his debut pros, novel ravenous things comes out tomorrow. Please welcome Derek chow.

Speaker 2: 2:32

Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here.

Speaker 1: 2:35

I am so excited to have you and congratulations on the launch of your debut book.

Speaker 2: 2:40

Thank you very much. It's hard to believe it's already here.

Speaker 1: 2:43

Yeah. Is it, um, has it felt like a really quick process or is this one of those where like, oh, I wrote the book three years ago and it's taken forever.

Speaker 2: 2:52

It's it's felt almost like both. I mean, part of it is I signed my book deal during the pandemic, so, um, I mean time means nothing in the last few years, so it is so true.<laugh> yeah. So, so in a lot of ways it feels like no time has passed, but when I really think back to when I first started writing it and the mental place I was in, that feels like a long time ago. So it's kind of both

Speaker 1: 3:12

Mm-hmm<affirmative> well, congratulations. It's super exciting. I know there's nothing quite like the first book coming out. Um, the first question that I ask all of my guests, uh, I would love to hear your origin story. What brought you to this, your first book coming out?

Speaker 2: 3:31

Yeah, well, um, when I think about writing and storytelling, it really goes back to when I was a little kid. I was really obsessed with any sort of creative outlet I could get my hands on and it really all had to do with storytelling, even though I didn't really know that's what it was. So I was drawing and sketching or doodling little comics in the back of my textbooks or writing short stories. Um, so by the time I was in high school and then into university, like pretty much all of my extracurriculars had to do with storytelling in some way. So I was creating like sets for the school play or comics for the school paper or writing short stories for the, uh, literary magazine there. Um, so yeah, so, uh, eventually when I graduated and I was entering the adult world, um, I knew for sure that the two things I wanted to do with my life professionally was a, be an artist. They make illustrations and B I really want to write and be an author. So that's sort of, um, the small little creative journey I had.<laugh> in a nutshell.

Speaker 1: 4:36

Nice. And I know you've done a ton of illustration work. Has that been kind of the primary focus of your career up until this point? Have you, or have you also been kind of writing? Just not novels?

Speaker 2: 4:51

Yeah. Um, I mean, in terms of things getting published, um, my, our career is definitely what took off first and writing was just sort of a hobby I was secretly doing, um, behind the scenes mm-hmm<affirmative>. So, um, when I graduated from university, I was largely focused on creating like editorial illustrations for newspapers and magazines and also, um, for picture books and textbooks. Um, so the funny thing is that I actually have done a lot of illustrations for like math textbooks, which is ironic because I was terrible at math in school, practically failed all my math courses. So, uh, yeah, it's great. I was able to contribute to the math world in any way cuz I really trouble with it.<laugh> but um, yeah, so, um, that was my main focus for, um, most of the year after I graduat from university, but I, I knew I, I wanted to get published. It just, it just seemed like such an impossible task getting published as an author. So, um, it, it took a few, um, stops and starts. So I did write a, um, book that's sort of a trunk novel. That's likely, never gonna see the line of day because it's way too long. It's like a 200,000 word middle grade fantasy<laugh> um, it's<laugh> maybe, maybe it's, you know, it's a bit of a mess. I mean, I think it was just, it was important as a learning experience and I look back at it and I can see all sorts of very rookie mistakes I made. But, um, yes, that was the first book I I ever wrote. Um, yeah.

Speaker 1: 6:18

<laugh> mm-hmm<affirmative> and how many, um, books or manuscripts did you go through, uh, before you got to ravenous things?

Speaker 2: 6:26

So, um, I wrote a lot of, uh, short stories in between that and RAness things, but so RAness things is technically the second novel I ever attempted. Okay.

Speaker 1: 6:35

So you learned so much from that 200,000 word epic<laugh> that you're like, okay, we're ready to do this for real now.

Speaker 2: 6:42

Yeah. I mean, I feel like, um, you know, just sort of getting my feet wet and just trying to write something that was longer than, you know, 10 pages was just really important and yeah. You know, and exercise and focus and concentrations.

Speaker 1: 6:54

Yeah. And finishing, it sounds like you did reach the end of that really long novel.

Speaker 2: 7:00

Yeah. It was a complete work. I just, um, felt a bit, I didn't feel that confident that it was ready to be seen by people other than me. So I just never really did anything with it.

Speaker 1: 7:11

No, that makes total sense. I feel like, um, for so many writers when you're, you're just learning and you're getting started, I feel like getting to the end of a piece is in itself like a huge milestone and a huge hurdle. And I know for me, so many of my, my early attempts at novel writing were like, you know, I'd get in 50 pages or then a hundred pages or then 200 pages, but then I would eventually give up. And so the first time I actually reached the end was just like, oh my gosh, I can't believe I actually finished something.

Speaker 2: 7:43

<laugh> yeah, I totally agree with that because it was, that was like my process, you know, with, with all my books is<laugh>, there's a lot of like self doubt and then, you know, putting it aside and then going back to it. So yeah, finishing it is just a huge accomplishment in of itself.

Speaker 1: 7:56

Yeah, definitely. Um, so of course then you did write and finish ravenous things, which is your debut novel coming out tomorrow. Would you please tell listeners a little bit about it?

Speaker 2: 8:09

Yeah. Um, so it's a middle grade horror. Um, it's about Reggie Wong. He's a 12 year old boy who's grieving the death of his dad and his home life is kind of a mess the moment because his mom is struggling with grief and depression and she barely leaves the apartment. And also Reggie himself is dealing with a lot of anger issues. Then one day a strange mysterious man approaches Reggie on the subway platform and promises that he can reunite him with his dead dad. And all he has to do is climb a board, the man's midnight subway train, which will take him deep into the wild tunnels beneath Toronto. And then of course, a terrifying adventure follows. Um, I'd say essentially my book is like a terrifying rollercoaster ride with lots of hearts and lots to say about grief and also lots of rats.<laugh>

Speaker 1: 9:02

<laugh> I would agree, agree with that entire assessment<laugh> I would also feel, I feel like the, the moral hearing you hearing, you just like describe it quickly. I'm like the moral, the story might be don't follow creepy strangers onto trains in the,

Speaker 2: 9:17

That is a very important lesson. We should all learn. I, we should

Speaker 1: 9:20

All pay attention

Speaker 2: 9:21

To this. Yeah. Yes. Especially if they're promising to Renet you with a dead loved one, that's a red flag, right?<laugh>

Speaker 1: 9:28

Yes, yes. If it's too good to be true. Um, so of course you're drawing a lot on the, the story of the pied Piper, which is in itself, just one of those fairy tales that is so creepy. And if I remember correctly, it's been a while since I read and learned about the pied Piper, but I feel like it does have some historical context to it.

Speaker 2: 9:54

Um, yeah, I did. I did some research on the pipe, Piper of Hamlin and I mean, it's both a folklore and I think there's like a lot of academic agreement that it's probably based on one or several events involving, um, either plague and the death of a lot of children or perhaps actually a mass kidnapping. I mean, it's, it happened during a period where there weren't very, um, solid written records that we could like police reports that we could go to. So, um, yeah, the, it possibly is based on a real event, but it's not clear if it is, I guess, um, for my research. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 10:31

No, and I love that because it gives the imagination so much fodder to run with it.

Speaker 2: 10:37

Right. Yeah. It's um, I I've always been fascinated by the tale of the pie Piper because it's just, yeah, like you said, it's so creepy, you know, it involves, um, a man taking revenge on the town and by kidnapping all the children and as a child, when I first read that story in, in a picture book, I believe, I, I remember thinking it was just, it was so disturbing because the children were willingly let away. And that was the aspect that just really caught my attention. Like, oh, they weren't like, you know, forcibly taken. They were, you know, um, Lu away with, with, with music and I guess a promise of being taken somewhere better. And so that, that always stuck in my head and yeah, when I, yeah, when I started working on RAness things, it was really because I, myself was working through like the death of my own father and it was a really difficult time. And so I was spending a lot of time just like thinking about, oh, how cool would it be if I could just spend a day with my dad? And of course that's impossible, but I was inventing all these really ridiculous, like magical scenarios where that could happen. And it suddenly struck me like, oh, this is a thing that a pied Piper could lead me away with probably because, you know, I'm feeling very vulnerable right now when I was writing it. And I was like, you know, I'm feeling really sad and yeah, this is a thing that would make me, you know, throw away all caution and logic. So yeah, that's how this idea came about.

Speaker 1: 11:56

Yeah, no, that's really interesting how the two things kind of merged, uh, to con to create this story, which is in itself, so creepy. Um, and you did call it a middle grade horror and I'd been wondering like, is this technically horror? Are we, is it a fantasy? Is it paranormal? Is it adventure? Like, it kind of combines a lot of different genres.

Speaker 2: 12:18

Yeah, no, I mean, I it's, I mean, technically I believe it's being marketed as a horror, but also like I, yeah, I have no problem also calling it, um, like a, an adventure story, because it really is like a rollercoaster ride with a lots of action sequences and there's a mysteries, a clue solving element where they kind of figure out a riddle. And so, um, I think that just sort of speaks to, I have an interest in a lot of genres<laugh> right. As a leader. Yeah. And so like, it was, it was hard to kind of stay completely in one lane because I find so many different aspects of different genres, like really thrilling and exciting. Um, so yeah, I definitely tried to keep it very creepy throughout because in my head I thought, yeah, this is probably gonna be a horror, but I had no problem kind of letting it strain to some other tropes that maybe weren't entirely horror.

Speaker 1: 13:07

Yeah. And I think that that's totally, I mean, I think kids love that. I mean, kids, don't always just want to read one genre strictly over and over again. That's not, and you don't have like the marketing problem that you see in adult fiction where people are like, but where would we put this on the shelves? You're like, well, you would put it on the middle grade shelf and kids exactly find it. And they will, you know, I think be excited to see so many things that they love and the puzzle solving and all of that.

Speaker 2: 13:36

Yeah. That, that's my hope. I, I think it's just, and ultimately it's just like a really, uh, fun, creepy adventure. So whether a kid wants like a, an adventure fantasy or something creepy, I think both audiences will enjoy it. I hope so. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 13:49

Yeah. No, definitely. So talk to me about writing horror for a younger audience, because there were things in this book that were giving me chills and I'm like, this is so eerie.<laugh>, I'm

Speaker 2: 14:04

Imagining

Speaker 1: 14:04

The whole body shutter, if you can't tell from my voice.

Speaker 2: 14:08

Well I'm yeah. I'm glad you were able to, to get that out of it cuz it's um, I mean the, the, the challenge and the fun part of writing for children is of course the challenge is like, you wanna make sure it's appropriate and age appropriate and it's, you know, not gonna be like traumatizing or anything, but you know, it, the fun part of it is it, it let me really kind of regress back into being like a 10 or 11 year old and imagining what I would've responded to in a horror story. And it was surprisingly not that difficult to do that maybe cuz I'm immature. I don't know. But<laugh> um, yeah, like I, I was able to kind of just sit there and imagine like, yeah, I'm an 11 year old and it's raining outside and I'm hiding under the blankets and like what would I find creepy and exciting. And like once you kind of get into that mode, like, I feel like it's kind of pretty easy to kind of stay in that lane and everything kind of feels like it's of that world and appropriate to the age group. Um, so there really, I mean there, there were maybe like a few moments in the that my agent, my editor said, oh, maybe like tone this down just a little bit. But generally there wasn't a lot of that. I think it came out pretty appropriate for children.

Speaker 1: 15:14

Yeah, no, I don't disagree. It's one thing that I am always curious about, um, because I generally feel like kids are a lot stronger than we give them credit for. Um, and that we shouldn't be so concerned about scaring them. Like they're just capable of handling more than we think and to, you know, to try to dumb down stories for them. I always feel is a mistake. Um, but at the same time, like you say, you do need things to be age appropriate. And I, I just feel like for a writer that seems like a really gray area, like would be kind of hard to find that line.

Speaker 2: 15:52

Yeah, no, that it definitely is something I thought a lot about not just in the initial drafting, but like afterwards, during the past pages and the editing process. Um, I think that you're right. I think children generally, um, I mean certain children, obviously every parent knows their child, you know, and every child is different, but most children to a level like enjoy scares like safe, scares. And, um, they can take on sometimes more than, uh, adults think they can. So I that's why it was important for me to just think back to like what I liked as a child, because I was, I was a kid who loved like spooky paranormal things and mm-hmm,<affirmative> enjoyed like creepy stories about UFOs or Sasquatch or whatever. And, um, I think ultimately the, the thing that I kept in mind is because the story is about three children, essentially processing grief and dealing with their own grief. Um, I, I wanted to make a story that was scary enough that, you know, the, the child reading it thought, oh, this is creepy. I, I want these characters to come out of it. Okay. At the end, because this is terrifying. But I wanted, by the time they get to the end of the book to see these kids who are to some degree dealing with trauma, cuz they're dealing with grief, overcome the horror that they they're, that they're encountering. Cuz I feel like that's a very powerful, empowering thing for children. Mm-hmm<affirmative> to see fictional children, um, take on evil and win. And I think that's where it becomes. Um, very, um, if not educational, like empowering, I think that's something, a thing horror does very well where it safely lets a child imagine really big danger, but see that there is a way to overcome the danger by banding together with your friends, by leaning your support network and network by communicating. So yeah, that's what I thought of as I was writing it.

Speaker 1: 17:43

Yeah. No, definitely. And it's not heavy handed. I mean, as an adult reader, um, you definitely pick up on, you know, some of those allegorical elements that like, oh, this symbolizes grief and, and mourning, et cetera. Um, but for a kid, I think it's gonna be on a much more subconscious level and it works really well. Um, and I think part of the strength in it is that you've got these three protagonists we've got, Reggie is our, our main character, our main hero. Um, and then he makes these friends, Chantel and Gareth and all three of them are dealing with a loss of some sort. And what I loved is that you didn't just give Reggie a really powerful story arc, um, and you know, where he gets to overcome some of these challenges he's been facing, you gave all three of them, a really clear arc and, and growth over the course of this story, which I thought worked out just great.

Speaker 2: 18:42

Oh, thank you. Yeah, it's good to hear that. Um, I definitely, um, one thing that really helped with creating the arcs of those three characters is kind of imagining each character is dealing with grief in a slightly different way. And that was really interesting to explore. So I feel like my protagonist he's still sitting sort of like in the anger mm-hmm,<affirmative>, you know, part of it, he's angry at his mom for not dealing with grief the way he he'd like her to deal with it. He's angry at his techn, you know, at his dad for dying, he's angry at the world. Um, his, uh, kind of bully that he meets up with on the subway train from his bully from childhood Gareth, um, is someone who is, um, grieving the, the loss of his grandmother. And he is in, um, a, uh, if not anger, he's in a sort of, uh, he's in a place where in his home life where he feels like he can't express his grief because he's afraid that it will cause grief in the loved ones around him. So he's kind of trying to keep that in and hold it in. Um, and then we have Chantel who I feel like is, uh, feels like that in order to honor the death of her twin sister, that she needs to kind of be a hundred percent and be an overachiever and kind of accomplish everything her sister wanted to achieve. So I feel like those were really interesting arcs to play with. Yeah. Regarding grief.

Speaker 1: 20:04

Yeah. No, definitely. I, I liked it and I liked seeing how each of them had different beats or moments throughout the story where you could see those changes taking effect, but also how it was so influenced by the other two. I mean, they really make this great trio that are like learning from each other as they go through this.

Speaker 2: 20:26

Yeah. Um, that, and that felt very important to me because, uh, for myself, like working through my own grief as a fully grown adult, I, I found of course that one of the most important things you can do is to, um, you know, communicate and talk with your support system, whether it's your friends, your family or therapist. And so, um, yeah, that, that felt, um, just very organic and natural important to me to write in because it felt like sort of the best way, um, a person who's going through some sort of hard time or trauma, that's the best way to work through it.

Speaker 1: 20:56

Definitely. Did you have any concerns with Reggie being a, like a quote unquote unlikeable protagonist?

Speaker 2: 21:07

Yeah. I mean it's when I was writing it, I wasn't like thinking, oh no, he's unlikable, but certainly afterwards when I read it and you know, I, I had some be readers go, oh, he's a really angry kid.<laugh> and I thought, oh, well I hope, Hmm. That's true.

Speaker 1: 21:20

Yeah. Which he is for good reason, but

Speaker 2: 21:22

Yeah. Yeah. But no, no, that like, that's a good point. It's um, it's sometimes it feels easier to like write a character that just, you know, is instantly likable and, you know, you feel like a character or the, the audience is gonna root for them because they have all the good qualities. And, um, in this case, I, I didn't feel I would be able, I would be able to write Reggie that way because I, I think because I was writing it from such a personal place, I'm recognizing now, in retrospect, I think I started it from a place of kind of feeling really angry at the world that my dad had passed. And, um, so it, it just felt very authentic to kind of the emotions I was dealing with. Um, but, but yeah, it was important to me, like to have an arc where he starts to, um, examine that anger and where he has his, his friends point out, oh, you're kind of being a jerk, like<laugh> work through some issues. So yeah, it, it is, I think it would've been an issue like if I had not, you know, um, dealt, had addressed that and not had him move towards a place where he's not just angry. Um, but yeah, no, it was, it was a concern as a, as I was writing and, and editing it in, in the later drafts

Speaker 1: 22:30

Mm-hmm<affirmative> no, and I asked not because I found him like, well, I actually found him very relatable. Um, and I think particularly for kids at that age, and especially for kids who might be going through their own loss or period of grief, um, you know, I think it's healthy, uh, to see characters on the page who are experiencing that full range of emotions and handling it in different ways because we do all handle it in different ways. Um, but I also know that like writers, it's just one of the things that we're constantly like, but is my character likable enough are, are, you know, readers going to relate to him. Um, so I was just really curious kind of how you tackled that.

Speaker 2: 23:11

Yeah. No, and that, and I totally agree with that. That is constantly like, um, you know, writing a book. I remember even like writing my first book, um, I was worried that my main character was annoying because, um, he was always sad and always crying. I'm like, is this, is this gonna completely, you know, making person just shut the book? And I mean, the point is mute now because it's a truck novel, but you know, that definitely is something like, as an author, as, as, you know, you want, you want the reader to root for the person you're writing for in some way. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I understand that

Speaker 1: 23:43

For me. A lot of times I feel, feel like the protagonists in the early drafts of the book are that like annoying whiny character. Cause they're always dealing with stuff like you're, you're always putting them in terrible situations and it's like, well, if it was me, I would be whining<laugh>.

Speaker 2: 23:59

Yeah. That's totally true that they, I, I, myself, I'm aware that if I were in any stressful situation, I probably would not wanna be around myself. Cause I<laugh>, I'd be like, I don't wanna be here. I did not sign up for this. I would not be a hero. So yeah. Right.

Speaker 1: 24:12

Life is unfair. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 24:14

It's a very human thing to be, to be, you know, not everyone is likable all the time, so yeah,

Speaker 1: 24:19

No, definitely. But of course that's such a wonderful thing about fiction is that you can kind of see yourself in these characters, but also feel inspired by them and be like, well, they were able to, you know, tackle this problem or face their fears. Maybe I could do.

Speaker 2: 24:37

Yeah, no, exactly. I mean, I, looking back at it and realizing, writing this book was kind of my therapy. Um, I mean, I, I have a therapist also, but this was definitely part of my therapy. Like it, it just, it was a way of putting it into, you know, my grief, my messy emotions into like picture characters and then like tweaking the plot and their story so that I could see some way to moving towards the light and in a place of positivity. So yeah, it's, it's has a lot of bearing on real life and my, my real emotions.

Speaker 1: 25:08

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Um, I wanna ask about the conductor, who is the villain of the story and what I particularly loved about this villain is the dialogue and the way that he speaks is so unique and creepy, but like in a way that clowns or carnivals are creepy, like it's sort of got a childishness to it that just makes it worse. Um, and he actually wrote some down, he uses words like BTY black and Skittle scandal and he just has like a very poetic way of talking. Um, and a lot of made up words. So where did that come from?

Speaker 2: 25:53

Yeah. Um, well, I'm glad you, you enjoyed that because speaking of annoying that I, that was my main concern of like, I hope people don't find this too annoying<laugh> cause you know, it can, it, it can potentially, when you have like really stylized dialogue, like maybe come across cloying maybe, but so I'm glad, you know, it worked for you. But, um, for me, it came from sort of a story place where I was imagining how this conductor came to be. So my backstory for him is that he was abandoned as a child on the subway tracks and crawled his way into the uncharted subway tunnels and was essentially raised by rats. And so he's had limited engagement with humans growing up and he kind of learned English by listening to echoes of voices in the subway, tunnels and announcements. And so he, I wanted him to have a very odd, um, speaking pattern and a very, um, strange way of speaking. And um, so I kind of leaned into the sort of, you know, uh, foe words and the, the RHY syncopation. And I, I thought it would kind of immediately establish that he's not necessarily of our world and I hopefully that it's, that's creepy. And I think the clown metaphor you made that that's very apt. Like I wasn't necessarily thinking of that, but like, yeah, that's kind of what I was going for sort of this, um, this human who is kind of removed from us because there are all these signifiers that like, things are a little bit off, you know, like, so instead of, instead of like, you know, a, a red nose and white makeup he's he speaks very oddly. So that, that was the main thing I, I leaned on.

Speaker 1: 27:25

Yeah. Did he have one of those voices that kind of came to you right away? Or was it something that kind of developed over multiple drafts?

Speaker 2: 27:35

Um, it, it I'd say it came to me right away in that when I started writing him, I remember like half like halfway through the first, I think chapter where I, I was writing him, I was just writing him just straight, normal dialogue. And I was like, oh, this doesn't feel right. And so very early on, I just sort of kinda sat and thought, all right, what does he sound like? And it kind of came to me. And, um, so after that first draft pretty much the way he spoke was right there on the page. But when I went back and reread it, the second draft, I, I realized that I kind of, um, leaned even more into it, the further into the manuscript I went. So I kind of went back and kind of, um, added even more of that strange dialogue and, and vocabulary in the, in the first few chapters. But yeah, it came, it came pretty, uh, organically and naturally when I was thinking about it, cause it just seemed like this is how this person would speak. So

Speaker 1: 28:26

Yeah, no, I love that. It cause it does. It feels, it feels natural. It doesn't feel forced like some dialogue, I think could, if you were doing this very unusual way of speaking, I think it could easily become kitchy almost. Um, but it didn't have that vibe. And so I, I almost feel like, you know, how sometimes we authors are like, oh, I just heard the voice in my head and it wasn't me at all. Like it kind of has that feeling to me

Speaker 2: 28:56

<laugh> oh, well, no, I I'm glad it, it seemed, um, you know, natural and it worked, but yeah, that's probably because it was, I mean, of all the elements, my book, um, that was one of the elements that almost felt like, oh, just kind of came to me in a dream. Like mm-hmm<affirmative>, there was some creepy person in my head who spoke that way and I, I don't really know where it came from, but yeah, that, that's how it came about

Speaker 1: 29:15

Now. And I hadn't considered until you mentioned it just now that this sort of dialogue, you know, very over the top could become annoying to readers. If someone is, you know, listening to this and they have a character who has a super unique way of speaking, do you have any suggestions for how they can pull that off and do it really well?

Speaker 2: 29:38

Yeah. I mean, I think, I mean the main thing also is, especially for dialogue, like say it out loud<laugh>

Speaker 1: 29:44

Yeah,

Speaker 2: 29:44

Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's, that's a great way to see, like, does this work as a flow off the tongue, um, also, um, like examine, like why are you making that decision? So if an author is like, I wanna make this off this character speak in this very distinctive way, really examine, like, are you doing that because you just want this person to stand out or does it like work within the world of your book? And does it make sense they would speak so differently from your other characters mm-hmm<affirmative> and, um, like in this case, I think, um, the reason why I'm I'm in any way able to get away with it is also just because like the genre I'm writing in. So it's like a middle grade, very fantastical, horror adventure. So I felt like, it just felt like his very strange poetically, odd dialogue just fit in that world. Whereas like, if I, if I, there was, if this was like a Y for example, or like an I, an adult horror, I don't think I would've felt that would've worked in the same way. You know, it would've felt cuz you know, I'm, my book is also, you know, inspired by the PI Piper a essentially like a, almost like a children's folk tale. And so it kind of fits in that world. So yeah, that, that would my main advice to, to authors, like does this fit the world you created? So

Speaker 1: 30:59

Yeah. No, that's, that's a really good point and I, yeah, reading it out loud seems so obvious, but I think a lot of times, like for me, I'm always getting really up, uh, on these tight deadlines and I'm like, I know I should read it out loud, but I just don't have time for that<laugh> but I think with a character like this, it would make an enormous difference.

Speaker 2: 31:20

Yeah. No, I totally, I totally agree with that. I mean, deadlines, you know,<laugh>, it makes everything that much more difficult, but um, I I think yeah, for a character who really speaks completely differently from all the other characters, um, yeah, you gotta watch it more carefully.

Speaker 1: 31:34

Yeah. Yeah. No, that makes sense. I will add, and it could be last week's episode. Um, I talked to an author who had just done a Allison Wonderland retelling. Um, and so maybe I'm drawing the connection just because I read that so recently. Uh, but I did feel like his dialogue had a very kind of Lewis car Jabber, walkie, um, vibe to it where it was just like all of the nonsense words and like made up, but very, uh, had a great cadence and yeah. Anyway, I just thought it was really great

Speaker 2: 32:04

Actually, that, that makes sense. I, I, that was one of my favorite books growing up. Alison, I would not be surprised as subconsciously the Ja uh, you know, that, that snuck in there.

Speaker 1: 32:15

Oh, maybe so. Oh, I love hearing that. Um, I did also wanna ask, so you have done a lot of work in comics and of course we talked about your illustration career. Was there a point where you considered like, should this be a comic book? Like why did you choose a pros novel over doing it as a comic?

Speaker 2: 32:36

Yeah, I mean, that's a question I'm always asking myself about my story ideas, where, you know, the, generally I come up with an idea and it generally starts with like a very specific image in my head. Um, and, but usually it's a very quick conversation with myself because like with ravenous things, um, there wasn't like a lot of back and forth. I just sort of saw it as a pros novel. And it's hard for me to, to say why I think part of it is like, I think I was picturing the world I created and the characters and the dialogue. And I just thought this would be more fun to put together with just words. Um, because there's like something fun about, or there's something very distinctive about creating a world just with words and the word play. And I felt like I didn't really have this desire to draw this world, like, or to illustrate it or to paint it. I just wanted to create an image in, in the reader's mind with words. Just, just, it felt right for this. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 33:35

It

Speaker 2: 33:35

Was one intuitive thing.

Speaker 1: 33:37

Um, the book does have illustrations in it though. Was that your idea or was that your publisher's idea?

Speaker 2: 33:44

Um, yeah, so, um, the cover was illustrated by the wonderful illustrative violet tobacco and the interior chapter illustrations were illustrated by me. So, um, it was kind of like a mix of both where, um, I, I was kind of, I went into, um, working in the book thinking, oh, it would be cool if they asked me to do like either the cover or the interior illustrations, but it wasn't like something I felt like I had to do mm-hmm<affirmative> but of course I knew I could contribute a lot to that cuz I knew what this world looked like. And uh, my, my editors were like, yeah, I, we think you should do the chapter illustrations. And I I'm really glad I was able to do that because, um, so many of the middle grade books I love growing up. Um, I love the little black and white chapter illustrations. It just sets the tone so well for a book and it's like a little, um, like a little, almost like a little prize in a chocolate, you know, everything you turn the page to new chapter say, oh here's a little illustration, little artwork, you kinda examine it. So yeah, I had so much fun doing that.

Speaker 1: 34:42

I love that analogy. I also love middle grade books and growing up when there was an illustration. Yes. And that's actually on my writing bucket list. I want a book with illustrations in it.

Speaker 2: 34:54

<laugh> you should, you should put that in your next contract. You can make that happen.<laugh>

Speaker 1: 34:57

I, I will have to, I am working on a middle grade, so I'll uh, I'll float it by them whenever it moves forward.<laugh> that would be really cool. All right. My last question, before we move on to our bonus round, um, and I was thinking about it earlier and this might become a new perennial question that I start asking all of my guests, but you are my Guinea pig for it.

Speaker 2: 35:22

Oh, excellent. I'm sorry.<laugh>

Speaker 1: 35:25

What is the biggest challenge that you feel like you've faced in your writing career so far? And how would you say that you overcame that?

Speaker 2: 35:35

Hmm, actually, um, it probably directly has to do with, uh, RAness things. So, um, the, the publication process of it was, or the getting, getting it to publication. So I finished it and then I sent it out to, to agents and eventually it landed in the hands of the wonderful agent TA who would eventually sign me. Um, but, um, she really loved it, but there were some issues with the pacing and the second act, uh, or the second half of the book. So she gave me a revise and resubmit and um, so I started to work on that and think of ideas to kind of deal with these issues. And I kind of got stuck. I didn't really know how to fix it cuz the, so the, as you know that you write it now, the first half of my book is very different from the second half and that the first half takes place largely underground and subter tunnels. The second half is like in a, in a city. And so initially, like it was a little bit too disparate, like some of the tone was different between half one and half two, and some of the plot points didn't quite marry together. And I just, I just felt overwhelmed like, oh, I don't know how to fix this. So I kind of tried and gave up. And so there was a gap where like I put a, I put my manuscript aside and then I started to focus on like I, I thought, okay, I just need to focus on another type of storytelling and then I'll feel better about it. So I thought, oh, I want to, um, create some more comics. So I started to do, uh, short stories for like anthologies and then I ended up, um, feeling confident enough to put together like a full graphic, novel pitch. And then, and this was like, um, a, a good while later I brought it back to, um, TA because I really loved the feedback she gave me and I thought I would love to work with this agent. And she signed me based on that graphic, novel pitch. Oh, so yeah. So, so essentially what happened was, um, when I signed with her, there was like an overlapping period of like two months where she was, uh, subbing, both RAness things and my graphic novel, cuz she, um, had remembered RAness things and said, oh, I really like that. Um, let me read it again. And I had had, you know, done some changes. She said, yeah, no, no, I think this, this will work on subs. So we sent it off. And um, yeah, so there was this gap where I had almost like lost confidence in my ability to fix quote unquote, the issues with RAness things. And I just, I just put it aside and I, I felt guilty about it. Like it was this thing where I thought, oh, I feel like I should be able to fix this. I feel like this agent who potentially could be my agent might be waiting for it and oh, she must be thinking I'm a terrible writer. So yeah, I lost a lot of, there was like a, a period where I thought, oh, medium's never gonna finish the smoker. It's never gonna get published. So yeah, that, that was a big challenge for me to get over.

Speaker 1: 38:11

Yeah, no kidding. And I mean, I, I can imagine that a lot of people in that situation would just kind of force it. Like, no, I can't lose this opportunity. I have to come up with something and get it back to this agent as quickly as possible and might lead to a rejection. If, if the, the work that you submit, you know, still isn't quite what they're wanting or hoping for, or, you know, isn't the best that you could make it at that point. Um, so I think it shows a lot of wisdom and patience to kind of step back and move on to something else.

Speaker 2: 38:48

Yeah. I mean, I didn't feel like wisdom at the time. It procrast

Speaker 1: 38:52

Give yourself the credit.

Speaker 2: 38:53

Yeah. It felt like I had just given, but no, that is a good point. Like it, sometimes you just gotta like know, know that you want to do, do a project or put in work. That is to the best of your ability. And if, if it's not working, it is good to know, like you need to step away cuz often that time lets you re reassess and refocus. But yeah. Um, in that period, that's part of the reason why I'm just feeling so much guilt about it. Cuz part of my brain was like, well, why don't you just force a fix? Just do something, just write something<laugh> you know, so, um, but I'm also like a perfectionist. So that part of my brain's like, well no, you can't do that. It's gotta be perfect. It's gotta actually work. And you know, so it's uh, yeah,

Speaker 1: 39:32

Yeah, yeah. And I know for me when I'm stuck, if I can take the time to switch over to a different project, um, it always helps. And whatever the brain science is there that like your, your subconscious is still working on the, the first story and the background. I, I think it's so beneficial if you can do that.

Speaker 2: 39:54

Yeah. And, and I totally believe in whatever magic that is like just switching to another project always helps. And it seems the, the, the answers kind of come in one's dreams after you just take break. The other project is great

Speaker 1: 40:07

For sure. All right. Are you ready for our bonus round?

Speaker 2: 40:11

Yes.

Speaker 1: 40:13

Plotter or,

Speaker 2: 40:15

Uh, I am now a plotter. I started a,

Speaker 1: 40:19

I hear that a lot.<laugh> I've never heard someone say that started a plotter and became a

Speaker 2: 40:24

Kidding. Well, I, as, as, as you know, you know, as a, as an author with deadlines, once you have deadlines, time to be messing around, I need to get this at least somewhat right. The first time around. So yeah.

Speaker 1: 40:37

Cake or pie,

Speaker 2: 40:39

Pie,

Speaker 1: 40:40

Music or silence,

Speaker 2: 40:43

Silence. When I'm writing pros music, when I'm, uh, treating any sort of art

Speaker 1: 40:49

Writing in the morning or writing at night

Speaker 2: 40:52

Night, I'm, I'm essentially a vampire. I, I, I sleep like at four in the morning, so yeah.

Speaker 1: 40:57

<laugh> how do you feel the creative well,

Speaker 2: 41:02

Going on a long walk,

Speaker 1: 41:04

Can you describe a typical writing day?

Speaker 2: 41:09

Generally I procrastinate until after midnight and everyone's asleep and then I write<laugh>

Speaker 1: 41:17

That would never work for me.<laugh>

Speaker 2: 41:20

Yeah. I have very odd hours. So<laugh>

Speaker 1: 41:24

How do you celebrate an accomplishment,

Speaker 2: 41:27

Usually meeting friends for coffee.

Speaker 1: 41:31

What book makes you happy?

Speaker 2: 41:35

Um, I have to say just the anti V Gable series. Um, it's it, it sounds so cheesy to say, but it's just, it's a series I love so much growing up. It was such a comfort read that if I'm ever stressed now I just reread those books and I'm instantly in a, in a better mood. So

Speaker 1: 41:50

I love that. That is one that comes up frequently with that question. What are you working on next?

Speaker 2: 41:58

Um, right now I am working on a graphic novel project. I'll be able to talk more about when it's announced and, um, I'm also working on a second, uh, pros, middle grade idea. So

Speaker 1: 42:11

Nice. Is the graphic novel, the one that you were working on, uh, with ravenous things at the same time?

Speaker 2: 42:17

Indeed. Yes.

Speaker 1: 42:19

That's exciting. Lastly, where can people find you?

Speaker 2: 42:25

Um, I'm on Twitter at Derek chow too. So that's Derek D E R R I C K C H O w. I'm also on Instagram at Derek chow dot official.

Speaker 1: 42:37

Awesome. Derek, thank you so much for joining me today.

Speaker 2: 42:40

Thank you for having me. It was so much fun talking shop with you

Speaker 1: 42:43

Readers. Be sure to check out ravenous things. It comes out tomorrow, July 26th. Of course we encourage you to support your local indie. If you can, if you don't have a local indie, you can check out our affiliate store that is at bookshop.org/shop/marissa Meyer. Next week, I will be talking with Melissa C about her Y romance, you, me and our heartstrings. If you're enjoying these conversations, please subscribe and follow us on Instagram at Marissa Meyer author and at happy writer podcast. And don't forget to check out red bubble for our official happy writer, podcast merchandise until next time stay healthy, stay cozy and whatever life throws at you today. I hope that now you are feeling a little bit happier.