Writing Prophecies and Enemies-to-Lovers - Gina Chen - Violet Made of Thorns

Marissa chats with Gina Chen about her debut fantasy - VIOLET MADE OF THORNS - as well as how readers tend to pick up on themes and symbolism that speak to them, regardless of what the writer might have intended; using fun relationship dynamics and internal conflicts (such as clashing personalities and varying moral codes) to enhance an enemies-to-lovers trope; some things to consider when including prophecies as a plot device, and two different methods for writing them (plot first vs. prophecy first); why the "flashlight method" might be right for you, especially if your process falls somewhere in the middle of the plotter/pantser spectrum; and how to overcome some of the challenges specific to fanfiction writers who want to start writing original works.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:11

Hello, and welcome to the happy writer. This is a podcast that aims to bring readers, more books to enjoy and to help authors find more joy in their writing. I am your host, Mari, Sam Myer. Thank you so much for joining me. One thing, making me happy this week. And it might be a little self-serving. I don't know, but I just received my first order of happy writer, podcast merchandise, and I'm so giddy about it. Um, I've of course had swag made for books, um, that I've never had quote unquote merchandise before. Uh, so this is kind of a new fun thing. Um, the goodies were all designed by Taylor from, uh, who is Kiwi and the bird on Instagram. You should definitely follow the account. She does all sorts of really fun bookish things, um, and like quizzes and challenges on there. So check out Kiwi and the bird on Instagram. Um, and the merchandise that she designed is just fantastic. It is all so fun and so cheerful. And I had a really hard time deciding what I wanted to order for myself to enjoy, but I ended up getting a t-shirt and a couple of new notebooks and like a really pretty tote bag. And I just really love it. I'm super, super excited. Um, I also did order up a few extras. Uh, so at some point here in the nearish future, we will definitely be hosting a giveaway for some happy writer merchandise. Uh, so stay tuned for that. And of course, if you wanna go ahead and check out the goodies, I really hope you do because I love it so much. Um, it is all on red bubble and I think the easiest way to get there is to just search the happy writer. I could give you a link, but it's long and obnoxious. So the happy writer on red red bubble, I'm really excited about it. Of course, I am also so happy to be talking to today's guest. She's a self-taught artist with a degree in computer science who generates creative nonsense in all forms of media, her debut novel violet made of thorns just came out last month, please. Welcome Gina Chen.

Speaker 2: 2:37

Hi, am so happy to be here. Also very excited for your new merchandise. I do not know about that.

Speaker 1: 2:43

<laugh> thank you. Thank you. I, you know what? I could send you something since you are actually<laugh> like on the podcast in episode when we're talking about this.

Speaker 2: 2:54

Oh my God. No, I, I have to look at the red bubble and like, choose I'll put like some stickers on my laptop.

Speaker 1: 2:59

Yeah, no we've got stickers. There was, I mean, so many things and a lot of random things like you could get pillows, you could get a, a bath curtain, like a lot of things that I was like, I hope somebody orders a bath curtain, cuz that would just make me really happy.

Speaker 2: 3:13

I know. Right? Like once you start, you can't stop. But it's, it's also very funny because I see those bath curtains all the time on like society six as well. Yeah. And like, I don't, I don't know what the market is for this, but if they're, if they have it for sale, clearly there must be one.

Speaker 1: 3:28

Right there must be somebody who's buying it to make it worthwhile. Yeah. Um, yeah, no, the, the notebooks are probably my favorite thing. The tote bag is great. Cuz you can always use more tote bags, but the notebooks are like really decent quality and I wasn't sure to expect. And so yeah, I'm really, really excited about it.<laugh>

Speaker 2: 3:47

You can never have too many.

Speaker 1: 3:48

Exactly. Exactly. I know. Which of us doesn't have a drawer full of notebooks lying around, but you can't resist new ones. Um, so anyway, thank you so much for being here. Um, I have to admit, I am not done with the book. I have maybe like 30 pages left and the

Speaker 2: 4:09

Good, the good part.

Speaker 1: 4:10

I, it is. Oh my gosh. It's so good. I'm so enjoying it. And as soon as we're done talking today, I am going to go pour myself a glass of wine and sit out on the patio and finish reading it. And I'm just like really looking forward to my afternoon.<laugh><laugh> um,

Speaker 2: 4:25

I hope you enjoy the rest it's yeah. It's very many things happen all at once.

Speaker 1: 4:31

Yeah. Well the, I mean, I won't tell you where I am. Cause I don't of course wanna spoil things for listeners, but I'm like just finished a chapter that had like a really big cliffhanger. So I'm

Speaker 2: 4:41

Looking happen. Ah, yes. I think I know where you are.

Speaker 1: 4:45

Yes. Yeah, yeah. And I am assuming I'm definitely getting the vibe that all of our loose ends are not gonna be neatly tied up in the next 30 pages.<laugh>

Speaker 2: 4:56

There, there is a second book. Yes.

Speaker 1: 4:58

Okay. Yes. I was gonna ask where we dual trilogy. So two, two books,

Speaker 2: 5:02

Two books, but I actually specifically wrote the, the first book. So that kind of stands alone. Um, I've had people tell me both. I've had people go like, why did you leave this at this cliff hanger? And then a lot of people appreciating that. I was like, oh, you, it kind of stands alone. And then you can read up the sequel blow if you want to.

Speaker 1: 5:20

Interesting. Okay. That's kinda a hard balance to strike. I feel,

Speaker 2: 5:24

I think it all comes down to the epilogue, which I really like. It's probably my favorite part of the story.

Speaker 1: 5:29

Okay. That's good to know. Now I'm excited. I love a good

Speaker 2: 5:32

Epilogue. I was like, we we're already all over the place. That's very funny. I know you had questions prepared, but I'm like, oh, I'm just gonna keep blazing through

Speaker 1: 5:42

<laugh> yeah, no that works. We, you know, it's just talking about books and writing.

Speaker 2: 5:47

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 5:48

Um, but I will launch into the, the first question that we ask all of our guests. Um, I'd love to hear your origin story. How did

Speaker 2: 5:56

You, you become a writer? Oh yeah, of course. I, um, always say I came from fan fiction. Well, because I, I did, um, me too. Pause. What did you write fan fiction for? Oh God. Okay. Okay. So whenever people ask me this, now I have to go all the way back.<laugh> um, I say I start started writing fan fiction in college, but the reality is when I was like seven or eight, I was writing stories about Neo pets and Pokemon and stuff like that. Nice. Um, so I think it was like a very early, like I've always been telling stories. I didn't know. I was telling stories. I was having fun playing pretend with all my friends on the playground, but also making up origin stories for everyone and slowly realizing I was the only one doing that everyone else was having fun, but I was the one creating everything. I was like, oh, maybe this is something that I'm into. Um, and then I think like throughout the school, um, I didn't, I just didn't realize I liked writing because I was really bad at writing essays and the fiction writing also falls out of the, the school curriculum after like elementary school or so. Um, so they don't really encourage that. Um, so it wasn't until I went to college, um, studied computer science, had to do something completely different to take up my time. Otherwise I would probably go crazy<laugh> um, and it, it was just, it just happened to be, um, fan fiction. Um, I wrote Harry Potter fan fiction back then before it got all weird<laugh> mm-hmm<affirmative> um, and I got most of my readership from there. I, I wrote like my total was like 350,000 words of fan fiction back then. Nice. So it was quite a bit big chunk and I never just thought about getting published. Um, I never wrote anything original back then. It wasn't until I finished all that, um, that I thought, well, a lot of people kept asking me, like, are you, are you writing a novel? Are you writing something original? Because I love your writing so much. And it was because of these readers, um, who I always interacted with, um, that en they're the ones who encouraged me to, uh, try writing a manuscript for the first time. Um, mostly cuz I had never expected to reach so many readers around the world, like just with my online writing. Um, it was something that I was writing just, just because I had some silly stories I wanted to, uh, share because the stories I wanted to read, um, weren't there at the time I was like, oh, I kind of want this heroin. Who's kind of prickly. And who, you know, is, is kind of genuinely kind of mean and who doesn't get totally redeemed, um, who doesn't I guess, um, get Disney channeled. Um, and like I love a little, you know, Disney channels at com, but sometimes it's like, well maybe I don't want the heroin to want to do the selfless thing in the end.<laugh> so, uh, that's, that's where a lot of my early stories, uh, stemmed from just like putting, uh, creating heroines that, um, I wasn't seeing in media at the time mm-hmm<affirmative> um, so, uh, when I, when I stopped writing fan fiction, uh, I did have to stop writing fan fiction to start writing the original stuff because it was taking up all my time. Um, I, it took about three years to finish the manuscript for violet. Um, it, it is my first original, uh, work, um, in the middle of it, I started writing bad eviction again, incidentally about three months before I started wrote before I finished the manuscript, um, because I didn't want to finish writing the manuscript, but that's how it always is. Uh, and also in that time I wrote a short story that got published in anthology. So that was actually my first taste of, uh, publishing. It was in the foreshadow anthology. I was very fortunate to be in that anthology it's by, uh, it's, uh, curated by or created by Emily XR pan and Nova Ren Summa, uh, specifically to highlight new voices in publishing. And it's really exciting because, uh, well all of the, all of the people who were published in the anthology were not agent were not published at the time. Um, and now four of us are debuting in 2022. And then, um, another one is debuting in 2023 so far and a couple more of us, I think many of us are agent. Um, so that's a really exciting time for all of us. I want to shout out the witch tree by S Isabelle who, whose book also came out on July 26th and then the next step is, uh, monsters born and made by to V BVA and then, uh, drizzles dreams and love struck things by Maya Prad. Um, and the next year is going to be Linda Chan's Kpop horror book. So that's very exciting. A

Speaker 1: 10:39

Kpop horror book.

Speaker 2: 10:40

Yeah. I know you've heard about Kpop romcoms, but now, um,

Speaker 1: 10:45

It's time to branch out. I love it.

Speaker 2: 10:48

Yeah. Um, so yeah, I'm just really excited to be sharing like so much of my, um, publishing journey with other like writers along the way. Um, I can't believe all of us are getting published. That's so exciting. That's

Speaker 1: 11:01

Awesome. It's like the, the anthology is like your fairy godmother<laugh>

Speaker 2: 11:05

It really is. Um, Saba here chose my story for the anthology and I'm like, uh, like, and she also blurred violet and I'm like, oh my God, thank you. Like every time I see her, I'm like, I'm sorry, like she's like, no, no, no, you don't have to thank me. And I'm like, you don't understand. I do have to thank you. And like pour out my heart every time I see you.

Speaker 1: 11:25

<laugh><laugh> so, so you were in the anthology, meanwhile, you are working on violet, you

Speaker 2: 11:33

Oh yes. Finally.

Speaker 1: 11:34

Eventually of course finished the manuscript. Yes. And then,

Speaker 2: 11:38

Oh, and then it was, it was a very, um, it was a very like blessed publishing experience for violet. I queried right at the start of pandemic actually, but, um, and then I got, um, an agent by summertime. Um, and then after I did some edits, uh, I went on submission and, and it only took about a week to sell the book. So I was like, like, it was, this is mid pandemic when everyone was stressing about books being acquired. So I felt so lucky about that. Um, and, and for shadow, once again also helped with that because the first time my editor read my writing was actually through that short story. So I was on her radar like already a year earlier and she was waiting for this. Like she, she saw me tweeting about this manuscript I was writing and she wanted it as soon as I was, as I was done. So I knew she read it like immediately<laugh>. Oh,

Speaker 1: 12:31

Cool.

Speaker 2: 12:32

Yeah. So it's it truly like all these little publishing experiences do, like they, they can create some like amazing opportunities for you. Um, I'm like, I'm so happy about that, but yeah. And then, um, the, the rest of my publishing experience has been during the pandemic, but it has been okay. Um, I think everyone sort of learned how to operate online since then. Um, so we're slowly moving back out into, in person events and I just had mine at mysterious galaxy and that was great. That was really great meeting people in person. And of course at ComicCon as well, right before that. Yeah. Um, I met so many people. I met people who I've only known online and that's really, that's really different from, from fandom as well. So that was amazing.

Speaker 1: 13:13

Yeah. So, um, at the time of this recording, the book's been out for about a week mm-hmm<affirmative>, has there been any like really big surprises or like really big highlights from your launch?

Speaker 2: 13:25

Uh, there have been like only good surprises and like that, that, like, there's just things I have not expected, um, coming up every day and that's been amazing. Um, like we were highlighted in the, uh, I say we, a couple of us, uh, debuts from 2022 were highlighted in the New York times. I was like, oh, that was amazing. I cannot pick up a, I cannot pick up a Sunday copy, unfortunately. Um, I'm still trying to hunt that down. Um, and then today I found out my Barnes and noble special edition sold out online, which is apparently good and bad<laugh> um, so good problem to have a good, a good problem to have. Um, and it's just been exciting seeing people tag me and there's gorgeous photos. There's so many that I haven't even gotten to yet. Um, and people messaging me about like the ending and it's like this, this is like the sort of interaction that I I missed from having from when I wrote fan fiction. Yeah. Um, and after I took that long pause, so, um, it's been great to experience that again, I am not reading any reviews whatsoever.<laugh> so I'm safe. I'm safe from that. Um, I am a big proponent of like, the author is dead. So, you know, however you interpret my story. Um, all the readers out there, I think that's personal to them. So I don't, uh, I don't really try to talk too much about, uh, what I think my story is about, because I think what my story is about is the story I presented.

Speaker 1: 14:52

Mm-hmm<affirmative>

Speaker 2: 14:53

And there's no other way I can explain it. I was like, if you like talk about your book, I was like, well, you could just read the book. That's that's what I wanted to say with the book.<laugh> so, um, but yeah, but I'm glad for like everyone who's messaging me about this stuff, you know, like, I, I love just, you know, chatting casually about that. I will not tell you what anything means, but you know,

Speaker 1: 15:10

<laugh> yeah. Right, right. Yeah. No, I, I also avoid reading reviews, um, and also trying to like psychoanalyze my own work. I'm I'm with you. I feel like that's better left, uh, to the readers and, and everybody kind of comes to a book with their own background, their own perspective, you know, we all kind of are looking through a different lens at the work. Yeah. So, yeah, that's that's for book clubs and literature courses<laugh>

Speaker 2: 15:36

Yeah. I think like media is like deeply personal to every single person. It's it's why, like, I can see something I'd be like, oh, that's, that's like a good piece of, that's a good piece of art, but I, you know, I can't really connect to it personally, but I can understand it's good. Yeah. And then at other times when I'm like, oh, this is like, maybe this is like something I can see already does not appeal to many people, but it speaks to me so personally. And isn't that the most important part?

Speaker 1: 15:58

Definitely. Yeah. And it's funny too. Cause as a writer, like I do think about themes and mm-hmm<affirmative> symbolism and you know, there might be a, a motif that I, you know, really put a lot of effort into carrying throughout the story mm-hmm<affirmative>, but it feels like readers never pick up on the things that were intentional by me, but a reader will come and be like, wow, I really love the symbolism of this totally random thing that never even crossed my mind.<laugh>

Speaker 2: 16:26

Yeah. And yeah. And it like, and it also doesn't mean that it wasn't there in the first place. Like I've also had readers. Um, actually I think one very important part, um, of violet story is so violet story is actually based off of, uh, some older stories that I've written, um, the character in particular, uh, cuz I've always been writing heroines like violet who are kind of like particularly and hard to get and very blunt, um, very brash. Um, and specifically the I've I've had a reader ask me whether my characters are, um, a romantic and it was not something I had considered before because it was just not something I had experienced with. Um, and then it was only after a, like after I wrote, uh, I wrote violet some more that I realized, oh, I feel like she, she is aromantic. Um, I feel like, and then like I also realized that like, oh, I am probably also, um, on the ACE, uh, uh, ACE spectrum.

Speaker 1: 17:27

Interesting. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 17:27

So, yeah, so that came from a reader completely and it was not something I had consciously intended. It was, I was writing from experience. I was writing from, um, just, just uh, law things that I have, uh, thought long about the romance genre that I couldn't connect with. And then someone pointed it out. I'm like, oh yeah, that explains everything.

Speaker 1: 17:49

Right. Yeah. No, it is funny when we get little windows into our own yeah. Psyche and subconscious it's like, wow. Someone picked up on that and I was totally clueless.

Speaker 2: 17:59

Yeah. Yeah. Um, I, I think it's really funny because, um, I think authors often ask, uh, or hope that readers relate to their characters, especially like Y a authors who are writing these coming of ages, but sometimes I'm like, oh, I can, like, it's important for me to be able to like relate to the readers. I'm like, oh, I am actually seen in these reader responses. Yeah. Because like, just, just as our stories show that readers are not alone. Like these readers also show that we are not alone. Yeah. That's both ways.

Speaker 1: 18:30

No, definitely. It's a symbiotic relationship.

Speaker 2: 18:33

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 18:34

Um, alright. That seems like a good place to pause. And would you please tell listeners who haven't yet read, uh, violet made of thorns? What is this book about?

Speaker 2: 18:43

Oh yes. It is a about a sea who sometimes tells lies about her prophecies and also the cursed prints that she gets very entangled with in more ways than one. Uh, there is a terrible prophecy. Oh yes. And yes, there's a terrible prophecy that binds the two together and she has to figure out, uh, whether she will be the hero or villain of the story.

Speaker 1: 19:09

I love it. I, I really am so enjoying this book. Um, and can't wait to see where it's going and how it ends. Um, so let's start, cuz you've already kind of talked a little bit about violet and about writing female protagonists who are a little prickly and you know, she's a little grouchy, she's a little standoffish. Um, but I loved her and I love that the book is written from first person because she just has such a wonderful voice, like she's snarky and dry, but not in an obnoxious way. And I think that that is a difficult thing to capture.

Speaker 2: 19:53

I'm so glad. Um, no, that's like the most fun part about writing her because she gets to just say all these things on her mind and I don't filter her at all because she's TA I feel like she's talking directly to the reader. So she's kind of like letting the reader in on all her little secrets as if they're right behind her. Um, and I intentionally read it that way. So it's like very personal and close, like a diary entry almost mm-hmm<affirmative> yeah.

Speaker 1: 20:17

So where did her voice come from? Like did you spend a lot of time developing her character? Did it change every multiple drafts or was it like, just really clear from page one? How did that develop?

Speaker 2: 20:31

I think her voice was always clear, but that's also because I really loved all those snarky, um, heroin in like nineties, teen comedies<laugh> um,

Speaker 1: 20:41

Stuff like, oh, that's where it

Speaker 2: 20:43

Came.

Speaker 1: 20:44

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 20:45

Uh, like 10 things I hate about you still holds up it's so it's classic and like I, yeah, like it's all from the nineties. I dunno what people are watching now. Um, because I'm like a little out of the range now, but that's, that's what I grew up with. I hope there's still, that's kind of snark going around now. Um, sometimes you just, you, you have to like, I can't curse, but sometimes you don't have to, you know, give, give a second thought to what the world thinks about you<laugh> is how I would say it.

Speaker 1: 21:15

Yeah. No. Now that you've said that like, yes, Julius styles, 10 things I hate about you. I can see the influence<laugh> yeah. See it there

Speaker 2: 21:24

She's a favorite and she's still, she's still going around in memes today. So I I'm glad she's still relevant.

Speaker 1: 21:30

<laugh> oh, I love it. I, that's definitely one of my all time. Favorite romantic movies,

Speaker 2: 21:35

Same.

Speaker 1: 21:36

Um, and actually, and it's perfect because one of the things of course, that I love about 10 things, I hate about you that most people love about it is that it's got this just wonderful hate to love, which is like probably my favorite trope of all time. Um, and we also have this fantastic hate to love enemies to lovers romance in violet. Yes. Is this also one of your favorite tropes?

Speaker 2: 22:03

Um, I love, I, I love when people get off on the wrong foot. I don't know if I like like enemies lover to lover specifically because I'm not necessarily about like the, uh, the, the killing murder aspect of it. A lot of people are into<laugh>. Um, I, I support everyone who loves a D treat the throat and I also love a dagger the throat, but I think for me, it's actually just like about the emo, like the deeper emotions about it. It's just like a, um, I call<laugh>, I call violet Andrus two things. Um, the first one I call is, um, they're actually, I can fix her meets. I can make him worse, which I think is a very fun dynamic. Um, and like another way to say that is they're, they're kind of like disappointments to each other. That's where their antagonism lies that I feel like they actually want to like each other very much, but they just keep disappointing each other because they don't meet up, meet each other's expectations. Um, and I think that's really interesting because they actually, there's, there's a different kind of stake there where you actually care about you. You do care about the other person, but you feel like it's not worth it to care about the other person for some reason. Like, because they're, they keep being so frustrating. Yeah. Um, and I, I also just love like that kind of, sort of tender bickering. Um, I confess I have not seen the entirety of it, but I think about like, or my friends always send me the, the princess diaries, two scenes<laugh>, um, where they bicker all the time and then they, they make out. So I feel like it's that it's that kind of hate to love. Um, so, um, but I just think, I just think that kind of tension is really fun because sometimes also, um, feelings, feelings are complicated, you know, sometimes when you get the feel, you, you have so many feelings about a person, you just hate them on principle because why are they making you feel that way?<laugh> yeah. So I also love exploring that aspect of it. You just, you just hate them because they're on your mind all the time. Um, but then you, but the truth is you, you have a lot of you, maybe you like them or love them. So yeah,

Speaker 1: 24:16

No, and this book, I mean, it is overflowing with that tension between them and there's a lot of like really blush, worthy, passionate kisses. Um, but then also their bickering is so good and the things that are keeping them apart are so believable. Like it's not, you know, sometimes I feel like we can, as writers, we fall into this trap of like, oh, I just need something to keep these lovers apart for longer. So we can like make something up that may or may not feel right for the story. There's none of that here. Like it just, there are things, legitimate things, reasons they can't be together, reasons that they get on each other's nerves constantly. Um, and yet you can feel that popup attention between them. Mm-hmm<affirmative> um, how do you go about, or how did you go about thinking of them in terms of characters needed in this romance story? Like, did they, did you like come up with violet and then have to think, well, okay, well, what kind of guy would violet fall for? Or how did that happen?

Speaker 2: 25:29

I, um, I started out with, I think the idea of overturning the fairytale first. So I created Cyrus as this he's supposed to be this kind of dreamy fairytale prince to the point of like almost parody. Right. Mm-hmm<affirmative>, but, but like that, like I, he gets, you know, quite early on in the story, he, he does a little game with his fans and he literally gets mobbed and it gets his shirt torn into beasts<laugh> um, uh, which is also apparently a scene in Ella chanted, which I actually did not know until afterwards. Um, so when I created his character, um, he's supposed to be let's this very honorable prints. Um, and I, I think, I think I just, I just wanted to put them together and like, see what would happen. And it is just a very natural kind of cat and dog interaction, I think. Yeah. Um, I, I try to look deeper into character motivations rather than, um, some external conflict. I want it to be a clash of values, a clash of personalities, because I think those are the things that really keep people apart. Um, and you can still care about the other person, digital reasons. Like, you know, you want them, you, you want them to live a good life or maybe they saved your life when you were younger or you see the glimmer of goodness in them. Um, and you can't help, but hold onto that hope. So, you know, even, even though their personalities, clash, you know, they have these little things that keep them compelling to each other and they keep reaching for those things. Even if they start arguing immediately afterwards in these scenes<laugh>

Speaker 1: 27:09

Uhhuh<affirmative>.

Speaker 2: 27:10

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 27:11

No, that makes a lot of sense. I think, um, I love that idea of really focusing in on, uh, and I can't remember the word you use, but they're, they're value. Think it was value

Speaker 2: 27:22

The motivation systems.

Speaker 1: 27:24

Yes. The things that really matter to them, mm-hmm,<affirmative> on a really deep level. Mm-hmm<affirmative> are constantly at odds with each other and it's hard to, you know, have a ly overlap with someone when you're fighting on a moral level like this.

Speaker 2: 27:38

Yeah. I, I think it's also really funny because, um, I know a lot of people love book boyfriends, and I was not thinking about that whatsoever. When I created Cyrus, I was, I was not thinking, I was like, oh, will people find him hot or something like that? Um, but I know a lot. I know that's like, I know a lot of people love that stuff, but, um, like I intentionally made him kind of a buzz kill. He was like, if I just like insult me, every turn is like, he's so honorable. He's like, he's never gonna get anywhere life like that, you know? Um, so, you know, she's just insulted the entire time and, you know, she does say that he's hot, but it's like, whatever. Um, so I, I don't know. I don't know if like readers like him where not, but I, I just think it's funny that way. Um,

Speaker 1: 28:24

I think I know I like him and I love that. Like wasn't intentional on your part. Cause I think that you made somehow managed to make a very dreamy book boyfriend<laugh>

Speaker 2: 28:37

Well, I SARS will be glad to hear that violet would probably roll her eyes.

Speaker 1: 28:41

Oh yeah. NoViolet and I, I love violet as a character. I don't think we would get on super well<laugh> real life

Speaker 2: 28:49

That's OK.

Speaker 1: 28:51

Or maybe she's like she a yin and yang thing.<laugh>

Speaker 2: 28:53

Yeah. Sometimes she'll sometimes she'll come around, see sometimes she'll be like, Ugh, at all these like, you know, uh, happy, optimistic people, but deep inside she's like, oh, why can't I be a little more like them? It would be so much easier. Like maybe, maybe I'm missing something. Right. I think she can be very easily charmed. Actually. You, you would probably charm her. I think it just, you just need to like paw at her for a little while and she has to come around. She's not gonna, you know, that she won't admit, she likes anyone at first glance. So you have to like circle back around a few times. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 29:24

You have to be persistent. I can be persistent. Yeah. Um, but it's funny that you say that, that she kind of like has, maybe is feeling like she wishes. She could be more like the, the, the happy, optimistic people, but for so many of us, um, I mean, mean, I think that I love her character and characters like her so much because I wish I could be a little bit more like that. Mm-hmm<affirmative> like a little bit more Frank, a little bit more willing to like, not care what people think. And I love seeing that in fiction. Mm-hmm

Speaker 2: 29:54

<affirmative> I think, um, the fun part about this for me is, is that a lot, like that is the dream for a lot of people to be this very outspoken, confident person, which like, I totally understand. But I, from writing the viewpoint of someone who is that person at heart, who is, who is very, maybe honest to a fault, maybe realistic to a fault, practical, to a fault their dream is to really like, they wish they could loosen up a little more or they could feel safer. They wish they don't have to be strong all the time. Um, even though they can be and will be, but it's, it's very tiring for them and they wish they could, they look at all these people going to the balls, like, oh, I wish I could turn off my brain for two hours and just enjoy myself. But they, they can't

Speaker 1: 30:35

<laugh>. Yeah. Yeah. Um, okay. I wanna switch topics a little bit. There are, of course, a lot of prophecies throughout this book because a violet is a Sears. She can see the future. She has prophetic dreams and I love prophecy and fiction in part because of that element of never quite knowing what the truth is and, you know, can it be changed? Is it set in stone? What does it really mean? They're always like vague mm-hmm<affirmative> and teasing. How did you go about thinking about the prophecies and how you were gonna incorporate them into the story

Speaker 2: 31:16

For, well, for me, I, I chose sort of a general conflict at first. So I, I knew, uh, there was going to be a terrible prophecy around Cyrus's love life. I knew it would of probably affect the entire kingdom. And then I started sketching out prophecies based on that. And then if I had to go back to add more details, I would do that. Um, honestly a lot of times the prophecies throughout the book were just written because I had thought of something like I thought of a rhyme or a couple of words. And I was like, oh, I love this. I love coming up with like, just a few like nonsense words that just go string together really well. And I was like, oh, I wonder if I'll have any time to, to, to put that into the story. And then I usually ended up doing, just doing that. Um, they were all just mostly the God's taunting violet saying you're gonna be evil

Speaker 1: 32:03

<laugh>, um,

Speaker 2: 32:04

In various ways, but it's very fun when they do that. Um, so I think like at, at the, at the base of it, it is, it was just, I just started with the conflict itself and then I wrote the prophecy to lead up to that. Um, um, and then, yeah, I just, I just tweaked it as I needed to. I think the, the one I kept tweaking was the original prophecy, because I was like, does this make sense enough for what's for everything that's coming, um, later. And then also I had to think about, uh, because it's not violet who gets the original prophecy, it's the Sierra who came before her. Um, when she, as on her deathbed, Sierra fellow P kind of had a last gasp of a prophecy before she immediately passed away. And I had to think, I was like, oh, I wonder what she was seeing in her dying moments. So I also had to adjust for that as well. That's a wonderful thought to have,

Speaker 1: 32:57

Did you ever have where you came up with a prophecy, like some of these words just came into your mind and you're like, I love that. I wanna use that, but did it ever really kind of throw the story for a loop?

Speaker 2: 33:09

Um, I don't think so, but that's because I tend to revise a lot. So I never think about like, I'm never too married to like a single phrase or a single situation. I'm, I'm very flexible in that way. Um, probably because that's a little bit, cuz I come from fan fiction and a little bit, because the way I write my mind tends to be all over the place and thinking about five things at once. So sometimes I end up writing those five things is one thing. Um, that, that just comes very naturally to me. Um, but, um, that's also why I tend to write a few chapters at a time. I think it's called like a flashlight method or something like that. Mm-hmm<affirmative> um, I, I don't remember the exact term, but it's, I, I, I think that's very good for anyone who, uh, who, who keeps, who gets bored writing chronologically, but also needs to write chronologically in order to make the rest of the story. Make sense.

Speaker 1: 34:04

Mm-hmm<affirmative> yeah. Yeah. So kind of the, in between the, the, yeah. Slaughter versus pan debate. Yeah. You thought a little ways ahead. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 34:14

So if you get bored, like with this chapter, you can write like two chapters ahead. You'll probably be still be on the path. You just gotta backtrack a little later.

Speaker 1: 34:20

Yeah. Um, I do also wanna talk about the influence of fairy tales on this book, because I obviously am a fairytale lover. Everybody knows about me, knows this about me.<laugh> um, and I loved that. Like, this is not a retelling per se, but there's clearly a lot of references mm-hmm<affirmative> to different stories. And so that made me really happy, like picking up on all the little Easter eggs that you dropped in there for us. Um, what was for you? Like what, what do you think the influence of fairy tales was? Uh, on a story

Speaker 2: 34:55

I've always loved fairytales, but like I've always, always loved every single kind of fairy tale. Like you get, give me a straight up retelling. Like I will also devour that my, my first ones were from Robin McKinley. Mm-hmm<affirmative> like, I think the beauty is my canonical idea of beauty and the beast. I actually don't remember another version of beauty of the beast. Like more clearly. I think I just assumed that was the original version when I was younger. Um, I wasn't aware. It was like, well, like I, I knew it was on Disney and I, I, I knew it was French and very old, but as far as I knew Robin McKinley, like Robin McKinley was writing the cannon<laugh>. Um, and, um, so I, I, I love, uh, strict retellings, but I also love stuff like Shrek, which is what I always cite when I talk about this book, because it's a, it's like a big fairytale mashup. It has wink and nudges if you love the genre. And also it has, it stars someone very grumpy who just wants people out of their swamp. Um, which I think is like the same thing. Um, and I think it's, it's, it's like a, I think violet is, is fun in that self aware way. I think like violet is very aware she's in a narrative or in some sort of narrative. I think that's fun because in the, within the story she knows because there's a prophecy and she has to weave this narrative so that it makes sense for the public. Um, so, so when she's talking about it, it kind of sounds like she's aware she's in a fairy tale, which she kind of, so that part is intentional. Uh, she, she pretty much is. Um, so that was, that was really fun for me because I think like, I, as much as I would love to do it, like a strict retelling, I think it's playing with the meta elements that is most fun with me because I have read so many fairy tales. I love just taking the arche types and twisting them a little. Um, I love that everyone knows about these stories so that I can, I'm able to twist these types and people are like, oh, I see what she did there.<laugh> um, and they're all, and they're also familiar with, um, these like PE people are now familiar with villain origin stories. Everyone has a villain, uh, a fairytale villain story. Now there's like Disney has their range. Mm-hmm<affirmative> and we also had, um, oh, we also have your books. So, so everyone like knows these archives and I think that's, that's what makes them fun to play with because you can defy reader's expectations, but you can also defy those expectations as well. You don't, you don't know how you're gonna like, uh, overturn these tropes exactly. But they know what you're playing with.

Speaker 1: 37:28

Yeah, no, I love that. And it's a fun reminder to people who love fairy tales or who maybe you just love, you know, classic literature or classic stories or mythology. Um, that, of course there's always room for more straight up retellings, but you can also take these stories and honor them, and mm-hmm,<affirmative> play with them in a multitude of different ways. Mm-hmm<affirmative> um, and I really enjoyed the way that you kind of worked them in while really creating your own fairytale.

Speaker 2: 38:00

Yeah. I think when you feed the Epilog, you will understand what I mean for that, especially I think that was that's the most fairytale part of the book I wanted to commit to making a fairytale as well as something that maybe referenced fairy tales. Yeah. Um, and I think the epilogue is what makes it a story about stories.

Speaker 1: 38:18

Oh, fun. Okay. Something to look forward to<laugh> all right. My last question, before we move on to our bonus round mm-hmm<affirmative> um, would you talk about something maybe one of the biggest challenges that you feel like you've had in your writing career or your writing journey so far, and how would you say that you overcame that?

Speaker 2: 38:41

I think for me, it was just learning how to write a book again, in the sense that I, I came from fan fiction, which is very different and I knew it would be very different, but like only knowing how to write like half of the things going into writing an original novel was very interesting. Because with fan fiction, you don't have experience with world building generally or, uh, introducing characters for the first time for people mm-hmm<affirmative>. So I had, so I got stuck at the beginning of violet from like, like a year and a half. Maybe I, it, it went through many iterations cause none of it just felt right. And I was like, also, I just didn't know what I was doing. I was like, do do people like, I, I, I kept reading the beginning of books and I was like, oh, I'm trying to understand how readers, like, like to be introduced to characters and how we learn characters as we read books. Um, which is very funny because it's like, I've read a lot of books, but then like now I've had to pay attention to all these characters speaking introduced in the beginning of books. I'm like, wait, how is this, how is this information all entering my brain? I was like, I can do it like this. I can do it like that. But then like when I tried to do it in my own manuscript was like, oh, none of this seems to make sense. And I like jump. I think the current beginning of violet was not the beginning of violet for the longest time I switched around. Like, I think like the prologue there, there was a prologue, there's no prologue. Now there used to be a prologue. Uh, the stuff that was in the prologue is now in chapter three,<laugh> Uhhuh. And, and I think like everything in chapter one was in a completely different order at some time. Um, and finally it became the order. It is now in the published book. Um, so I think that's the hardest part. Um, luckily I had a lot of time to figure that out. I was not in a rush to get published. So for me personally, um, time was the biggest factor in, uh, overcoming that and then having many, many different people read my manuscript. Mm-hmm<affirmative> through the drafts. Um, that is the most like the community is the most helpful part. Um, in your early writing process, I think like, you cannot do this. Maybe you can do it alone, but I, I cannot imagine doing this alone. I would have been able to do this without people telling me, oh, like, you know, your pros is good. You know, these, these character arcs are so interesting and I'm like, oh, thank you so much. I'm like doing something right. You know, it doesn't, it doesn't have to be that in depth. It's just realizing from someone else going you're you're doing okay. I'm like, oh, thank God.<laugh>

Speaker 1: 41:15

I agree completely. I can't even imagine not having that, both for the support and the encouragement, but also for the critique and the advice. And it really is just so valuable.

Speaker 2: 41:28

Yeah. It's I think it's just because we're always stuck in our own own worlds, especially if you're a fantasy writer when you're writing, you just need that reminder. Sometimes<laugh>, mm-hmm,<affirmative> that there's a world outside as well. And also like you can, can't bounce off so many things with friends.

Speaker 1: 41:45

Yeah. Yeah. Um, and likewise with your, your commentary on fan fiction. Um, and I, I went to the exact same thing, like you've written fan fiction for so long and it's like, wait, now I have to describe my own characters.<laugh> um, and I remember after cinder came out, suddenly people were asking me like, but what does cinder look like? You never actually describe her. And I was like, what do you mean? I never describe her. Like, I can see her so perfectly. And it, I never realized there's like no description in the first book.

Speaker 2: 42:16

No, I totally understand what you mean because I do like, I very intentionally describe violet like fairly early on and a couple times throughout the book, but I feel like I don't describe it very much compared to most people or almost books. And I'm like, oh, I'm so, I'm so sorry. Unfortunately, I can't see her perfectly in my head.

Speaker 1: 42:36

It's harder to do in first person too. Cause like, yes, you don't wanna do the cliche, like looking at a mirror. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 42:42

She looks in the mirror once and I'm like, okay, that's enough.

Speaker 1: 42:45

Right.<laugh> good enough. Moving on it.

Speaker 2: 42:48

It's also like, well, like would silent want to perceive herself? And she, she just look at herself and be like, yeah, that's me. I don't know why you want to know anything more than that.

Speaker 1: 42:56

<laugh> yeah. And I know. And how often do you sit there and like, be like, oh, here's my long wavy hair. That's the color, you know, you just don't do it. Yeah. All right. Excellent. Are you ready for our bonus round?

Speaker 2: 43:11

Oh, I hope so.<laugh> it's coming whether I want to or not.

Speaker 1: 43:14

Yeah, no. You're, you've got this<laugh> tea or coffee.

Speaker 2: 43:19

Oh, tea. I don't drink coffee at all.

Speaker 1: 43:22

Writing in a computer or writing in a notebook

Speaker 2: 43:26

Computer.

Speaker 1: 43:27

What is your favorite writing? Snap.

Speaker 2: 43:31

Ooh, fruit.

Speaker 1: 43:33

Uh, would you rather be a queen or a sea?

Speaker 2: 43:37

Oh, a sea.

Speaker 1: 43:39

<laugh> no hesitation. Really?

Speaker 2: 43:41

Yeah. I, I, I don't care for like violet. I don't care for the royalty stuff. Um, I would, I'm I'm very rich in a cottage in the woods, hands on, like hands in the dirt kind of thing.

Speaker 1: 43:53

Well, in that case, would you rather be able to see into someone's past or see into their future

Speaker 2: 44:00

Future that past? I can Google that.

Speaker 1: 44:03

<laugh> uh, if you were invited to the mast menagerie, what sort of animal would you represent?

Speaker 2: 44:11

Oh, I was thinking Fox at first, but that's actually Cyrus. Although I would love to be, I would love to be a Fox among his foxes.

Speaker 1: 44:22

<laugh> do you have a favorite writing craft book?

Speaker 2: 44:29

Uh, I like to go through the wonder book by Jeff Emir cuz it's very, it's illustrated. It's very pretty. I don't go through it all the way through, but I love just cracking it open.

Speaker 1: 44:39

I just got a copy of that earlier this year and I haven't read it yet and I'm very excited to

Speaker 2: 44:45

It's just gorgeous.

Speaker 1: 44:46

Yeah, no, it is just flipping through. It is like, wow, this is really beautiful. How do you fill the creative? Well

Speaker 2: 44:54

Reading, just reading more books.

Speaker 1: 44:58

What book makes you happy?

Speaker 2: 45:01

Oh no. All books make me happy. I love, uh, books. So I have this terrible habit. When I read a book, I forget it like immediately, even if I love it. Um, but every time I find a new book, that's, that's what, that's what it makes me happy. Um, I love every Nevo novella that comes up. I very excited for our next one. It's coming up in like this fall.

Speaker 1: 45:24

What are you working on next?

Speaker 2: 45:26

Oh, book.

Speaker 1: 45:29

Can you tell us anything about it?

Speaker 2: 45:31

It is going to be, um, both more hopeful and also darker in, in ways is, is how I would phrase it. I it's very interesting because I cannot describe the second book without completely spoiling the first one.<laugh> I know

Speaker 1: 45:49

It is. Yeah, but

Speaker 2: 45:50

It, I think it, it's also going to mirror the, uh, first book structure. So I'm expecting epilogue. That is kind of similar.

Speaker 1: 46:00

Okay.<laugh> lastly, where can people find you?

Speaker 2: 46:04

Oh, on actual Gina. I am actual Gina on all social media and also actual gina.com is my website. Um, do not be fooled by the fake Chah.<laugh>

Speaker 1: 46:15

Awesome. Gina, thank you so much for joining me.

Speaker 2: 46:18

No, thank you for having me. This was so fun and I love talking to you. Fairytale queen<laugh>

Speaker 1: 46:25

So

Speaker 2: 46:25

We have so much to talk about. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 46:27

Yes, no. I, I truly enjoyed this book and, and this conversation has been delightful readers, definitely check out violet made of thorns. It is available. Now of course, we encourage you to support your local indie bookstore. If you don't have a local indie, you can check out our affiliate store that is at bookshop.org/shop/marissa Meyer. And don't forget to check out the new happy writer merchandise store on red bubble. Next week, I will be talking with debut author, Alicia Thompson about her quirky adult romance love in the time of serial killers. If you enjoy these conversations, please subscribe and follow us on Instagram at Marissa Meyer author and at happy writer podcast, until time stay healthy, stay cozy and whatever life throws at you today. I hope that now you're feeling a little bit happier.