Hello and welcome to the Happy Writer. This is a podcast that aims to bring readers more books to enjoy and to help authors find more joy in their writing. I am your host, Marissa Mayer. Thanks so much for joining me. One thing making me happy this week is that as of this recording, we are three weeks away from Curse coming out, and I'm going on book tour again. Ever would've thought when I was last on book tour for Super Nova in November of 2019, that it would be three years until I got to go on tour again. And I know that I am not alone in being an author who is just super, super excited to be out in the world again, to see all of your lovely faces in person, to smile and laugh, tell stories, and answer your questions and sign books. And I'll be honest, on top of just like all the wonderful things that come with like being at the events and seeing everyone person, it has also been like so hard the last couple of months to get any like solid writing time. So I am equally excited to some long flights and some long afternoons spent at the hotel being able to order room service and have some peace and quiet and get some quality writing time in. So it is two things that I'm really looking forward to coming up in November. Um, please definitely, if you are interested in seeing me, um, I hope you'll check out the tour schedule. You can find it on Instagram, uh, or it's posted at, uh, on my website@marissameyer.com. And if you can't make it out to any of the in-person events, we will be having a virtual launch party for Kirst. That is on November 15th. So I hope you will join us for that. All right. With that, I am also of course, so happy to be talking to today's guest. She holds an MFA in creative writing from the University of Notre Dame and currently teaches at the National University of Ireland Galway. She is also the New York Times bestselling author of a number of books including The Circus Rose, the Forest Queen, and Mechanica, which as a side note, has been hailed as being perfect for fans of the Lunar Chronicles. Appropriate. Her newest novel reader, I murdered him, has one of my favorite titles of all time and comes out on November 15th. Please welcome Betsy Cornwell.
Speaker 2Thank you so much, Marissa. I'm so happy to be here with you.
Speaker 1I am so happy to have you. I am embarrassed to admit that I have not read any of your previous books, but looking up your bio and reading about your books, they are so up my aisle and I've already put you on my, like, get caught up on everything this author has done list. I'm so excited.<laugh>.
Speaker 2Thank you so much. Well, I know we have the, we have the sort of, um, mechanical take on Cinderella in common. That was sort of, I, I did it as sort of a more historical steampunk direction with mechanical. But, um, I was really excited to, to find Cider because I had already written mechanical when I saw cider, but I was just so delighted to see that there was someone else working with these, with working with these ideas in, um, in such an interesting and smart way. So I just admire you so much,<laugh>.
Speaker 1Well, thank you. No, and I love that too. I love Steampunk. I love how you write historical fiction. Um, judging from the book we're gonna be talking about today,<laugh>. Uh, so I'm really excited. And then I also saw that you've done, uh, a Robin Hood retelling, which I'm super excited about mm-hmm.<affirmative>. Um, and what was, uh, The Circus Rose, I remember?
Speaker 2Yeah, The Circus Rose was my most recent book, which came out, uh, in June, 2020. So sort of height of, uh, the first lockdown. And it is, uh, retelling of the Brothers Grim story. Snow White and Rose Red. Wow.
Speaker 1That's right. And
Speaker 2Yeah, it's actually set in the same universe as, uh, Mechanica. Um, so it's sort of like vaudeville era circus, uh, retelling. Um, and it's also my only book that's told, um, in both pros and verse. So it has two narrators and one of them speaks in verse. So that was a fun thing for me to get to do. Oh,
Speaker 1How interesting.
Speaker 2Yeah,
Speaker 1I love that. Um, cool. Well, they're, like I said, they've all been added to my tbr and I'm excited. Thank you. I love it when you find an author and they've like got this wonderful, you know, backlist and you're like, I'm just gonna dive into all of it,
Speaker 2<laugh>. Yeah, I know. I also kind of get sad when I get into an author when it's still in their first book, cuz I Right. I wanna just dive into all their other stuff, so
Speaker 1Right<laugh>, right. Faster people.<laugh>.
Speaker 2Yeah. Seriously.
Speaker 1Um, ok. On that note, um, the first question I like to start with, I'd love to hear your origin story. How did you become a published author?
Speaker 2Oh wow. Okay. Sure. Well, I actually, I always wanted to be a writer. I remember, I don't remember learning how to read, but I remember being five or six years old and looking at books on the bookshelf in my classroom and thinking, you know, I wanna write books someday. And I was always a huge bookworm. Um, my third grade teacher got me into, um, A Wrinkle in Time and Made and Langel books. And that was sort of my first big foray into chapter books. Um, and my mother read to me a lot. She actually read Jane Air to me when I was 10. And that, so sort of started the relationship with Jane a that I eventually followed through into writing reader. I murdered him. Um, but so I was always a huge bookworm and I always wanted to be a writer. Um, I eventually went to Smith College where I was an English major and, um, started studying fairy tales. Uh, and I wrote my first novel as a student at Smith College. Um, and then went on to do an MFA at Notre Dame right after that. And, um, I was lucky enough to sell my first two books, uh, while I was an MFA student. So I used the advance from my first books to travel to Ireland. Um, my first novel is a sort of modern take on selfie mythology. Um, so I came to Galway, uh, in theory to study selfies, but I ended up sort of just taking a holiday<laugh>. Okay.
Speaker 1How could I pause? You were saying sell key with a K, not selfie with an F Oh, yes.
Speaker 2Distinction,
Speaker 1Mythology,
Speaker 2Selfie
Speaker 1<laugh>.
Speaker 2Right. That would be quite a different book. No, it's Celine with a K<laugh>. And they are, they're kinda like a Celtic version of mermaids. They're basically, uh, seals that can turn into people. Um, so some Americans might know. There's a wonderful film called The Secret of Ronan ish that came out in the nineties, which is about selfies, um, that some Americans would be familiar with. Or there's a beautiful Irish animated film called Song of the Sea, which came out just a few years ago. Um, which also explores that same mythology. So, so my first book is about these seals that turn into people. And, um, I came to Ireland to do research on them. Um, I ended up meeting, uh, my now ex-husband who's Irish, um, while I was here. And, uh, now I am a single mom to a five year old. And I support him mostly through writing books, which is the dream I always had. So, so here I am today,
Speaker 1<laugh>. Awesome. Yeah, I love that you went to Ireland to research What a dream is that
Speaker 2Absolutely. No, I, I had, um, I had come close to getting a Fulbright Scholarship to come and do research in Ireland, but I didn't get it. But then when I sold my book, I just sort of thought I'd take myself on my own Fulbright, you know,<laugh>. Um, so it was very, probably not the most practical choice I've ever made, but it did lead me into, uh, having a lot of wonderful adventures, you know, so
Speaker 1No, absolutely. Life is short.
Speaker 2Absolutely. Yeah.
Speaker 1And I did see, and we won't get into this quite yet, maybe we can, um, touch on it later, uh, in the interview. Cause I of course wanna get to talk about your book, but I saw in your Instagram feed, like pictures from a retreat there. I see it was in Ireland.
Speaker 2Yes. Um, yeah, well, there are a few, um, it teach retreats at Kyle Moore Abbey, which is one of the most beautiful buildings in Ireland. It's a historic, uh, castle really, Um, in Kamara the region of the west of Ireland where I live. But I also live in, uh, a historic building myself. I live in, uh, knitting factory that was built in 1906. Um, and over the past two years, I've, uh, crowdfunded its whole purchased, which has been a, a huge project and probably another reason that reader ended up coming out of it later than I originally expected it to. Um, after I became a single parent, I became really passionate about, um, you know, the, the challenges that single parent artists face, uh, in, you know, accessing time to do their work and accessing the art community. Um, and so I found this wonderful space at the old knitting factory, uh, which I have turned into a family home for myself and my son. And I'm also turning it into an arts residency space for other single parents like myself. So, um, I crowdfunded the whole purchase of the building over the last two years, which is something I'm really, really proud of. And I just had our first funded single mom resident come and stay with us this past summer. Uh, really remarkable woman who arrived in Northern Ireland as a refugee from the Sudan. And I was just so thrilled to get to offer her some, some time in space and just to start trying to honor other single parents. Uh, it's something that's been, that I've become hugely passionate about.
Speaker 1Oh my gosh, that's incredible.
Speaker 2Thank you.
Speaker 1Did she bring her, her child or her children, or is that like the plan to have a space for Yeah. Single parents and the children?
Speaker 2So the plan is that it's a childcare inclusive, um, space. And that was kind of the, the barriers I was facing when I became a single parent. You know, I was already a professional author by then, Um, and there were plenty of writers' residencies and retreats that I would've qualified for, but they were either prohibitively expensive or they didn't include childcare, so I just couldn't access them, you know? And so, um, my hope eventually for the old knitting factories to offer, uh, certified childcare on site, but for now I offer a stipend as part of the funding. Um, so, you know, I, I gave her, uh, a cash stipend basically that she could use either to bring her children with her and then hire childcare so that she could rest while she was here. Or what she ended up doing was, um, you know, giving the stipend so that her children could be cared for in Belfast while she came by herself. And I think, you know, especially with, I mean, I'm sure you know yourself as a parent, everyone's situation is different. And so the thing that I like about the stipend is that it gives people the flexibility to decide if they wanna bring their kids with them and to choose the childcare that that best suits their needs. You know? Cause everyone, depending on how, at the age of your kids and any number of factors, it's just everyone's situation is different. Yeah,
Speaker 1Yeah. No, absolutely. And I'm not a single parent. I do, you know, my husband is, you know, wonderfully involved and very supportive. Good. Um, and I feel super lucky about that. But a lot of times people will ask like, you know, how do you get anything done also while raising children? And like, my go-to answer is, get help. Like, you have to, you need a support
Speaker 2System in place
Speaker 1Of some sort.
Speaker 2Yeah, absolutely. And it was actually the single mother's support group here in Galway that kind of inspired that project for me because they, um, those women are, are pretty much the most remarkable women I've ever met. And the amount of love and support that they provide for each other is incredible. And I'd say I've become really, really proud of being a single parent and, you know, of, uh, supporting my kid on my own and making my life work as, uh, you know, a working single parent artist. And I think single motherhood especially is still so stigmatized, but it's become, you know, of all my roles, it's the one that I'm most proud of. And so I I'm really glad that I get to create a space that, that celebrates single parents. Cuz you're right, it is, it is uniquely challenging to be trying to do it without a partner. Yeah.
Speaker 1Yeah. Yeah. Do you have, obviously we have lots of parents who listen to this podcast who are aspiring writers. Any suggestions, any words of advice?
Speaker 2Sure. Um, well, I actually, I do, uh, like I, as you mentioned in, uh, your introduction, I teach writing at the local university here. Um, and I also, uh, teach it as the private writing mentor online. And a lot of my private clients are parents who are aspiring writers. Um, and what I say to them, you know, when I started writing novels, I started using national novel writing months. So I was holding myself to these really high word counts to get done every day. And I think there's a lot of value in that. I get my college students to do that, and developing that discipline is really important. But I think you, you have to temper that with a gigantic dose of reality when you're a parent, you know? Yeah. And so for my, for my college students, I try to get them to write a thousand words a day on weekdays. Um, but I don't have my parent clients do that at all. What I, what I like to tell them is something that I learned, uh, when I became a single parent, you know, um, I was in a very, um, you know, a very challenging situation, which I, I don't need to get into, but, um, it was a silver lining of it was that I sort of lowered my exhaustively high standards that I had for myself, you know? Mm. Um, and I, I gotta the point where I wasn't thinking about, okay, like what, what parenting philosophy did I follow today? Or, you know, did I make sure that all of his baby food was organic or whatever it was like, um, you know, I would put him down to sleep at the end of the day, and I would think he is alive. I have succeeded<laugh>, you know,
Speaker 1Like I have, I have done job now that again awake.
Speaker 2Um, and so that's pretty much what I tell my parent clients. Like, have, you know, I think you can, I think you can apply that same theory to your creative practice. Like, have you kept it alive today? Then you have succeeded. And so that doesn't ne even necessarily mean if you've written anything, but like, have you thought about it? You know, did you scribble down a note about it while you were waiting in this school line? Or did you, you know, like, did you sort something out in your head? Did you have a conversation with someone about this character? Um, and of course, you know, obviously it's not a child, and so like, if you don't keep it alive one day, it's
Speaker 1Not the same mistakes
Speaker 2<laugh>. But like, but I think it's like, that for me has been a kinder and gentler way for me to approach my creative practice where I say, Okay, I just, I want to make sure that I devote some time and space to keeping it alive today. And so that might mean something very small depending on the amount of energy that I can give to it. But I think that it's that that daily sort of gentle, um, reminding yourself that it's something you love and care about and want to nurture that can help you get into a practice when writing a thousand words a day would be impossible, you know?
Speaker 1Yeah. No, definitely. Um, no, I appreciate, I, it is so hard to lower standards. I know for me, like, I know because I've done it before, I know I am capable of writing 10,000 words in a day. Wow. So then I have nothing else going on.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1<laugh>, you know, so like, like knowing that I can do that, it makes it so hard to then have a week in which zero words have gotten written. And I'm constantly reminding myself like, you know, Marissa, there's, you're in a phase of your life where you are raising children, and absolutely this is, we're homeschooling and this is a priority, and, you know, trying to travel with the family, there will come a phase of your life when you can have 10,000 word days. You're just not there right now. Well,
Speaker 2I, something someone said to me that was really helpful about that is like, if, if you could do your best days every day, they wouldn't be your best days. They'd just be a normal day.<laugh>.
Speaker 1That's important, keep in
Speaker 2Mind. Yeah. Um, and something else that I, there, the, I the older generation of Irish people here have so many beautiful, uh, sayings that they'll come out with. He'll just be like, Wow, that's a gem. And so, one of my favorite ones that I'll offer to you now that, uh, a friend of mine who's a public keeps it keeps the pub in the countryside in Ireland, a thing that he'd say to me all the time is, uh, nothing in nature blooms all year round. And I, that's, that's a very comforting thing that I try to keep in mind as well. Like, you know, you can't, you can't be at your peak every day all year round. It's just not, it's not, you know, you, you, like, we can't expect that of ourselves. It's not fair. I think,
Speaker 1You know? Yeah. And creativity, it has ebbs and flows too. You know, There's
Speaker 2Absolutely, there's,
Speaker 1There's times when you're like, Oh, I'm so excited to get to the page and to write a bunch of words today mm-hmm.<affirmative>. And then there's times when you need to be reading books and traveling and watching documentaries and
Speaker 2Absolutely. Yeah. And that's all part of the, of the practice as well. Like, that's part of all the time you spend researching and reading other books that's getting inspiration and just living your life. That's, that's gonna go into your book as well. You have to sort of fill yourself back up to be able to write, I think.
Speaker 1Yeah. No, definitely. Uh, we are kindreds. Um, I would like to come on one of your writing retreats, by the way,<laugh>.
Speaker 2Oh, am I allowed more than welcome? Not a
Speaker 1Single mom
Speaker 2<laugh>? Absolutely. No, I, so my, my hope is basically to, um, offer these funded retreats for single parents by providing paid retreats for the general public, you know? Oh,
Speaker 1Interesting. Oh, what a great idea. Yeah.
Speaker 2Yeah. And so I also have, part of the house is, uh, like I said, it's a historic building, which is another word for a really old house, so it needs some renovations.
Speaker 1I, I live for old houses
Speaker 2<laugh>. Right. No, me too. I mean, I think it's like, uh, this house was, um, on the market for years and no one in Ireland was buying it. And I think it took a crazy American to come in and be like, Wow. An old stone house. I love it.<laugh>. Cause all the Irish people wanna live in like, new houses that don't leak, and that's fair enough, Right.
Speaker 1Hassles,
Speaker 2They've grown up with it. Right. But I, I do, I love this house. I find, I do, I adore it. I think it's on a lake. It's beautiful. It's, you know, we live in an Irish speaking region. My child's going to an Irish speaking school, which I think is wonderful. And, um, uh, so I love this building, but, so I am, I'm, I'm just starting this sort of second phase of crowdfunding to hopefully do some renovations to make it more, um, appropriate to actually hosting, hosting group retreats on site, you know, so then I can have, um, uh, writers come and do a weekend retreat or do yoga retreats and that kind of thing, um, and offer the space on, I have been offering the space on Airbnb, but the window has just sprung a huge leak, so I need to get it repaired before I can keep doing that, is what life is like, you know, But Right. Yeah. So, so my hope is basically to run it as a small business and then offer this kind of nonprofit side of it to support my fellow single parents. Um,
Speaker 1Oh my gosh, I love that. Truly put me on the list. Thank you.
Speaker 2Um, love it. You're more than welcome,
Speaker 1<laugh>. So, okay, so you're, you're writing books, you're renovating, uh, an old house slash knitting factory. You have Kickstarters<laugh>, you're a teacher, you've got a lot going on.
Speaker 2This is true, Yeah.<laugh>.
Speaker 1And at the moment, you're of course promoting your new book that is coming out. Uh, would you please tell listeners a little bit about reader? I murdered him.
Speaker 2Absolutely. And I should have, I'm sure, Um, my publisher is annoyed at me for not focusing on that track more before.
Speaker 1Oh, that was my call. I totally drove us off
Speaker 2Course, but I'm
Speaker 1Fascinated, and I think that's so cool. The retreats are so cool.
Speaker 2Thank you so much. Well, I'm, I, it is a huge fashion project of mine, so I'm delighted to get the chance to talk about it, so thank you. But yes, I will talk about reader and<laugh>. So, um, as I said, my mother, Reggie Jane aired me when I was 10 years old, and it really scared me. Um, you know, I think that she, uh, thought that I would relate to, uh, Jane, who is this really bright young girl who was experiencing bullying and, you know, didn't really feel like she fit in. And that resonated with what I was going through at the time. But you know, what actually really frightened me about Jane Nair was the secret wife kept in the attic, which I think is a reasonable response to
Speaker 1Have to that book.
Speaker 2And, um, and I just, I've never been able to, um, and I know this is a highly controversial statement that makes a lot of people angry, but I've just never been able to accept Mr. Rochester as a romantic lead, given what he did to Bertha. And also how he lied to Jane about it would, but I think that's secondary to just how he treated this human being. Um, and so that it's always kind of haunted me. And I read Jane Air again in high school and in college, and in graduate school, I actually took a fabulous class, um, in grad school at Notre Dame called Jane's Heirs, which was, uh, entirely books inspired by Jane Nair. So we read Wide Ciga Sea and, um, Cold Comfort Farm, which is hilarious. And, um, uh, I Capture The Castle by Dody Smith, which has actually been my favorite novel since I was 17. And, um, so I started thinking about, um, working with Jane Nair way back then. And, you know, I'd already sold my first book by then, and all my other books have been retelling so fairy tales. Um, and so for me, approaching Jane a didn't feel that different from approaching silky mythology or Cinderella, you know, it's this classic story that, um, sort of lives lives in our culture, you know, and, um, that I've really engaged with in different ways throughout my life, and always sort of felt, you know, admired hugely, of course, you know, but also felt some, some pushback against. And, um, so, and, and because also, um, sorry, I'll, I'll start that sentence over again,<laugh>. Um, I also, you know, had experienced some abuse at the hands of men in my life, uh, like too many people have. And so I actually sold this book to my publisher, um, the same week as the Brett Kavanaugh hearings were happening in the Supreme Court. And I was just, uh, like a lot of my friends at the time, I was feeling a lot of anger about the ways that women's stories about especially sexual trauma are repressed and are not believed. And so this book sort of coalesced for me in that spirit of, um, of yeah, anger. You know, this was a very cathartic book for me to write. I think it's darker than my previous books in a lot of ways. And it really what has came from a place of, um, of anger, but I, I, I do think of righteous anger that a lot of, uh, women felt at that cultural moment and still feel now. Um, so that's, that's really what it came from for me. And so it is basically a sequel to Jane Nair that follows Adele Berens, the young French girl that Jane first comes to Thornfield to be a governs for, um, into her teenage years. And, uh, she sort of becomes a vigilante, I guess I could say
Speaker 1<laugh>. Yeah. Oh, she does. She is a badass vigilante<laugh>.
Speaker 2So, yeah.
Speaker 1Um, okay. So I am fascinated by one that you read Jane Air at such a young age,<laugh>, and then that you continued to read it and have read it so many times, because to me, it is one of those books that it changes based on the age of the reader. And like, I remember reading Jane Air for the first time when I was 15, 16, maybe. Yeah. Um, and thinking, Oh, it's so romantic. Mm, mm-hmm.<affirmative>, and then I read it in my mid twenties and had a completely different reaction to it. And I, I think it's, it's just one of those books that, uh, whether it's the Age of the reader or just like, Right, even like, as you know, more modern interpretations are probably gonna be for sure way different than when it was written. Uh, it's a book that kinda changes so much based on perspective.
Speaker 2Yeah. And I think that's such an indication of a really rich text. And again, like I, I realize that I'm being very uppity and approaching one of the greatest novels of the English language<laugh>. And so, like, you know, I'm not trying to like, Oh, dare you. I know, right? Yeah. That's the question I was asking myself the whole time I was doing this. But I did it, like, I, I think the word I keep coming back was catharsis. It really was cathartic for me to work through my feelings about this story. Um, but in the same way that I approached, you know, the fairy tales that I have written about, which I genuinely love, but that I also, you know, I mean, I, like, I was an English major, I sort of was taught to think of literature as kind of a conversation, you know, where books are in conversations, stories are in conversation with the stories that came before them. And so I, I'm just sort of trying to, trying to continue a conversation about this story, I guess, rather than sort of make any, um, I approached Junior with a lot of respect. Um, but I also, there were some things that I wanted to, to say. And, um, so right for me, Mr. Rochester has always been frightening and has always seemed like an abuser. And the more closely I read that text, the more that seemed to be the case. And I did, you know, I trained as a rape crisis counselor when I was in college and, um, have, uh, an unfortunately several personal experiences with, um, abuse. And so I really recognized a lot of those patterns of sort of gaslighting and manipulation, um, which has really, uh, affected my reading of Mr. Rochester. On the other hand, some of my best and most respected friends who are some of the most intelligent people I know, you know, he's their number one book boyfriend of all time<laugh>. And I don't think that, I don't think I'm smarter than them, or that my opinion is more right than theirs or anything like that. But it's just, it's just a conversation I wanted, I needed to have really, with the book. Yeah. And, um, and so this was, this just came out of, um, the, the way that Jane Nair has resonated with me over different parts of my life. And again, Right. I mean, you know, maybe I'll read Jane Argan in 10 years and see something different in it. I hope I do. Cuz again, I think that's a sign of a remarkable text that you can come to it again and again and find different things in it. Yeah.
Speaker 1And it's not the fact that we as people change
Speaker 2Also. Absolutely. Yeah. Um, but an argument, I think that an argument that I hear about Mr. Rochester a lot is, uh, basically comes down to, uh, grace. So that he is, is forgiven in the end of the book. Not because he deserves it, but because of grace, because of Jane's grace for him, because of her love for him, their love for each other, or because of divine grace. You know, there's a lot of ideas about religion and God and Jane Air. Um, and I think that I was thinking about that a lot as I was writing read. I murdered Him, um, because it never seemed to me that that, that the narrative extended that same grace to Bertha. Um, and so mm-hmm.<affirmative> and I, and I see that narrative happening a lot when we see cases of abuse play out in the media who is extended grace or who is given the benefit of the doubt. And it is almost always powerful men<laugh>, you know, and not anyone else. And especially not the people accusing powerful men of misdeeds. And so that is something that I wanted to engage with, with reader is like, who is deserving of forgiveness, who is deserving of second chances? Because Bertha doesn't get a second chance. You know, she like dies a fiery death, you know? And, um, and Adele, even in Jane Air, is kind of just casually tossed out of the book at the end. And adult's mother certainly is kind of not given much consideration at all. So I wanted to try to give some of that grace to these women who, who didn't seem to receive it in the original text.
Speaker 1Right. And such fascinating characters too. I mean, Adele's mother, we know so little about her, but you just feel like there's a story there. And I love that we got to see a little glimpse of that story.
Speaker 2I'm so glad. Yeah. I kind of had to fight to have more of, of Adele's childhood in Paris. You know, I think, um, my editor very wisely wanted to get to the vigilante stuff, and I think that's really fair. But I was, you know, I was really interested in engaging with, uh, Adele's life story kind of in the way that Jane tells her life story in Jane Aaron. Yeah. So I really wanted to include, you know, some significant portion of her child. And I also just think, you know, Adele's mother has to have had such an impact on who Adele is as a character. Like I, you know, I couldn't imagine her not. And so that was, um, and also of course, Adele's mother was a single mother, and that was interesting to me as a single mother. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. So it was something that, that, um, appealed to me to, to engage with. Yes. So, Yeah.
Speaker 1No, that's so interesting cuz one of the questions that I'd wrote, written down, um, was asking if it was intentional how kind of the, the structure of this book in so many ways mimics the structure of Jane Air and how like Jane a such a large portion of the beginning does follow Jane through this childhood and these various traumas, and it really takes quite a while for her to get to Thornfield and become the governor.
Speaker 2And
Speaker 1Similarly, like, you really make us wait for it<laugh>
Speaker 2Like a lot
Speaker 1Of that.
Speaker 2Yeah. That was definitely intentional. And I think, um, I, I also, I don't think of myself as like the pasties writer. Like, I think something that I would still like to work on is improving my sense of pace. So I think I can be kind of slow sometimes. But on the other hand, something that I've learned with this book, um, is, you know, it's my, it's my sixth book that's being published and probably my seventh and a half one that I've written, you know mm-hmm.<affirmative>. And, um, I have also, I think given myself permission to be the kind of writer that I am a little bit more with this book was say, I could say I am a very character based writer. I'm interested in atmosphere and lyricism and character development, um, possibly more that I'm interested in, you know, a cracking fast plot. Um, and I've been self conscious about that in all of my books. And it is something I'd like to keep improving, as I said. But I also, I did sort of claim that space for myself where to say, Okay, this is gonna develop slowly, because I actually, and I'm, I'm so pleased that you noticed that it, I try to, um, I try to emulate the structure of Jane Air a little bit, um, because I wanted to, I wanted to create that space for Adele that Jane creates in her narrative, or that obviously Charon creates some Dan's narratives.
Speaker 1Yeah. Well, I thought it worked really well. And I, I mean, of course I also love a really fast paced adventure Mm.<affirmative>. But I thought that the, the slower buildup and just like getting so much atmosphere in this book, um, you know, whether it's at Thornfield and like it takes you right back to Jane Air and the mos and everything is just kind of sad and gloomy,<laugh>, Um, and then
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1And then suddenly we're in London and we're fancy parties and the glitz of it all, and I thought it worked really well.
Speaker 2Oh, I'm so, thank you. I'm so glad. Well, I think one of the things that I've always loved about Jane Nair is it's gothic atmosphere. I love the gothic in general. And, um, so that's something that
Speaker 1Yeah, more gothics are better<laugh>.
Speaker 2Absolutely. And so that's something. And also, of course, I live in Ireland, which is the home of many fabulous gothic stories like Dracula and, you know, Carmilla and any number of wonderful things. And, um, so I really did relish the opportunity to write about some spooky houses and some, you know, Misty Moores and all that stuff. I love all that stuff, so, you know.
Speaker 1Yeah. No, me too fun. And it's a very specific vibe and like Exactly. I think that this, uh, episode is going up on, uh, Halloween, so, Perfect. It's a perfect Halloween. Halloween
Speaker 2Read<laugh>. I hope. So.
Speaker 1So you, you know, you're gonna be doing this, uh, sequel to Jane Air. What was your process like? Did you go back and read Jane Air again? Did like, how did you develop the story from that?
Speaker 2Sure. Well, I do remember I was going for a walk one day, This was like six or seven years ago now, when the phrase reader, I murdered him, just popped into my head.
Speaker 1I
Speaker 2Was like, Oh my God, Well, you
Speaker 1Have that write.
Speaker 2I was so happy. I like let out an evil, which is cackle, you know, and, um,<laugh>. But, uh, and so I had had this idea of, um, Adele sort of growing up and murdering a bunch of gothic heroes. And originally she was gonna murder like Heath Cliff and like specific characters from, you know, other gothic stories. I
Speaker 1Love that this great would've
Speaker 2Would've been fun. And then I was like, maybe she'd like end up with Mary from Pride and Prejudice. That would be hilarious. But then I was like, you know, that was like not the direction I ended up taking. Um, but I, now that I know
Speaker 1This, I'm sort of disappointed.
Speaker 2I'm so sorry. Yeah. Maybe, maybe its maybe the next book. But, um, uh, yeah, Adele was always very clear to me in my mind as a character. And I, like I said, I am a very character based writer. So often I'll start with a character. And so her voice just sort of came to me. And then I really did, um, especially when I was writing the beginning of the book, I really wanted to lean on developing that, that sense of atmosphere. And so that's what I started playing with. And I wrote the first few chapters quite slowly because I was just thinking a lot about language and, um, lyricism and, uh, that kind of mood development, you know. Um, but it did, it came pretty smoothly after that. Like, I, I think I did refer, I reread Jane, of course, um, I reread The Mad Woman in the Attic, which is a series of essays on basically feminist 19th century literature. Um, I reread Wide Sargasso C and, uh, I already mentioned Cold Comfort Farm. And, um, I captured the Castle and I spoke with my professor from that Jane Airs class. Um, and she was a huge help to me. Um, and, uh, so I, I basically, I looked for a few points to sort of riff off in Jane Air. So we have right Adele's childhood, um, mirroring the beginning of Jane a and Jane's childhood. And I also wanted, I knew I wanted to create a love interest that sort of, that sort of Rift off of some of the things that Mr. Rochester does. And so that's why, for instance, Nan is a cross dresser in Raider. I murdered him because Mr. Rochester cross dresses in Jane Air, which not everyone always remembers cuz it doesn't appear in a lot of the film adaptations. But there's a very interesting scene where he dresses up as a fortune teller, um, as an old woman and tells Jane's fortune. It's fascinating and very strange, and to obviously the, uh, both the racial and gender politics going on there are really interesting. Um, and so I wanted to have, uh, character, you know, that right? Obviously this is a romance, and I wanted to have a character who, uh, plays with gender, but for her, you know, so for Mr. Rochester, he is a wealthy white man, basically in drag as a poor traveler fortune teller woman. And so I have, um, a poor Irish traveler girl in drag as an upper class white man. And so I wanted to sort of play with those, uh, the two sides of that coin, as it were, I guess. And so my development of Nan came out of sort of, sort of as a foil to Mr. Rochester in a way, you know,<laugh>
Speaker 1Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. Well, so interesting. I, and I won't, we won't give anything away, of course, but I,
Speaker 2I was struggling
Speaker 1To,
Speaker 2There's a joy there, there's
Speaker 1A, a slight twist at the end that I mm-hmm.<affirmative> thought mm-hmm.<affirmative> was brilliant and
Speaker 2Made you great. Oh, thank you so much.<laugh>. Oh God, that was also, yeah, uh, to, to, to not give anything away, but that was there for me from the beginning as well. Like, that was always what had to happen at the end of the book. That's what it's about for me. So, Oh, so yeah,<laugh>, thank you. Thank you. No, I'm glad, I'm glad it worked,<laugh>
Speaker 1It worked really, really well. Now, this was one of those novels where you kind of start to think like, I don't know how they're gonna find, you know, Anyway, I don't wanna give too much away, but I thought it was very good.
Speaker 2Oh, I'm so pleased. Thank you so much,<laugh>. You always worry about that. Yeah. So,
Speaker 1Um, so then what was your process for researching? Um, I mentioned before, I love the way you write historical, the, the, I mean, all of it. There's of course the historical details as far as like the, the clothing and, um, you know, illnesses are talked about and like medicines and things like this. But then just, even just the voice of it all, I mean, really had that very Victorian gothic vibe. So what were some of the things that you did to capture that?
Speaker 2Uh, well, I think in terms of, um, just clothing and food and locations and that kind of thing, I'm a great lover of, you know, the, the period drama. So I think I watched a lot of, um, of, I certainly watched many, many adaptations of Jane Nair and, um, read a lot about, you know, the internet is a fabulous thing. It makes research so easy. Look into, I just Google like, you know, 1820s London boarding schools, and it gave me so much information,<laugh>, you know,<laugh>. And, um, but, uh, in terms of the voice, it really means a lot to me that you say that because I really was trying hard to sort of, you know, um, offer, offer this tone that I enjoy so much. And actually there's a wonderful, the Oxford Book of Gothic Tales is a really excellent, um, anthology of gothic short stories from the last like five or 600 years. Um, that was invaluable to me and just learning more about the gothic tradition, and, uh, that's something that definitely influenced my writing style. So I was reading a lot of, you know, 19th century writers as I was writing this. Um, and I really, you know, I, I mean, I attended an mfa, Uh, I was the only person writing Children's and Ye Books there. It was a very avantgarde experimental high brow program in a lot of ways. And, um, and so certainly my work wasn't always taken seriously. And, you know, children's books, uh, fantasy books, like many of my books are, are often not considered literary, but I strongly disagree with that. Um, I think literary writing is any writing where you take it seriously and, and put all of your heart and mind into it, you know? And so I, I think of myself as a literary writer and a genre writer. And so I really was since, and I, I was sincere in my admiration of the Brontes, obviously. So I wanted to, uh, even though I realized that, um, this book will enr a lot of people, probably, I really wanted to pay homage to these writers that I, you know, that were some of the first, uh, great novelists in English language and that I really admire and respect and, um, remarkable women for their time, obviously. So I wanted to, to sort of emulate them, you know? Um, so I was reading, yeah, I certainly reread Weathering Heights, rere Air, uh, The Tenant of Wild To Hall and, uh, the Oxford Book of Gothic Tales, which I think is, is that's such a fun Halloween read if you'd just wanna keep a bunch of spooky, but not too scary, uh, stories by your bed for Halloween. That's a, that's a great one to put next to Reader. I murdered. Yeah.
Speaker 1So, uh, so on top of that, and one thing that I just thought was so interesting that I just have to ask about, of course, we, we've got, you know, it's very historical, um, you know, feels very authentic throughout the whole story, and yet we have these little epigraphs at the start of, of every, um mm-hmm.<affirmative>, you know, quarter of the book that are modern. You use contemporary quotes from like, contemporary music, um mm-hmm.<affirmative>, and I can't remember what the other ones were from, Uh, what was, what was the deciding factor there?
Speaker 2Yeah. Um, well, I mean, to be honest, the first one is from, uh, Beyonce's Genius album Lemonade. And I was listening to that constantly when I was going through my divorce in a very typical fashion<laugh>. And, um, I, uh, it just resonated with me so hugely as this, this story of a woman finding her voice and finding her strengths. And I think that's what Jane Nair is about. That's what I hope Reader I murdered him is about. And it's this voice of anger towards a man who's mistreated you. And so it seemed like nothing was more appropriate, you know, um, to, to open the story with and than Beyonce<laugh>, and then I
Speaker 1For a while. So Natural<laugh>, right?
Speaker 2No, no. But seriously, I think I, I think Lemonade is one of the greatest pieces of art of the last, like, at least 10 years. But, but, you know, and then I have Brandy ly who's my, my favorite musician, probably of Kate Bush, who's obviously fabulous. And, um, but I actually, yeah, it really made me happy to sort of juxtapose those modern things with, um, with this historical voice. And something that was really validating for me, um, after I wrote Reader was, uh, of course when Bridgeton came out, because I think their, you know, um, they were doing something, uh, similar in a way where they had something that was historical, but also infused with things that are very modern. And even a lot of the music on that show is basically classical covers of pop songs in a way that I think is very clever. And so I think, um, I was aspiring towards something that Bridgeton has obviously done in a much more complex way, but, um, just that sort of juxtaposition, which, which to me is very appealing and very fresh. Yeah.
Speaker 1Yeah. No, I love it. And it kind of gives me a little bit of a Mullan Rouge vibe. Oh, love it. Um, where again, it's like this historical drama, but there's like David Bowie music and Yeah, totally. Which I think is,
Speaker 2It was definitely an inspiration for me too. Obviously I have her mother as a dancer in Paris, and, um, so that was right. Mullan Rouge, both the actual place and the film more both inspirations for me too, so. That's awesome. Yes. Perfect.
Speaker 1All right, my last question before we move on the bonus round. What would you say is one of the biggest challenges that you've had to tackle so far in your career, and how were you able to overcome that?
Speaker 2Yeah, Okay. That's a good question. Um, well, for me, it was certainly when I became a single parent. I remember, um, I had, uh, sold the Circus Rose on proposal. Um, and then rough after that, my marriage broke down in a really traumatic fashion. And, uh, I, I, my son and I briefly became homeless and I got the, um, email that the book had sold, like that same week, basically<laugh>. Oh, wow. And then was given like, it was like three months that I had to turn in the manuscript in. And, um, I did, I got it done on deadline three months later. And that was absolutely the biggest professional challenge that I've ever faced, you know? And, um, uh, so, but that was a really good experience for me. I mean, it obviously not good at the time, It was incredibly challenging, but it taught me some really useful lessons. And the thing that I think about a lot is when I was writing the Circus Rose, one of the reasons, as I said, it's written in both pros and poetry, um, is because I was having such a hard time personally, uh, that I would sit down to write and I knew I had to write in order to, um, get paid for my book. Right. And, you know, uh, feed my kid and, and, uh, get us housed and all that. Um, so I had to get it done, Uh, which is a great motivator, you know, like Writer's Block doesn't stand a chance against that<laugh>. Right. Um, but I would, I was so, um, I was having such a hard time. I often felt like I couldn't even string a whole sentence together. And so what I ended up doing is, uh, just not, I would just not write whole sentences. And what that ended up turning into was blank first. And, um, so I sort of gave myself permission to just write whatever was gonna come out of me, because that's what had to happen in order to get it done. And then I really had a hard time editing that book. Like I, because it was, it became a reflection of such a challenging time in my personal life. I actually had a friend help me go through my editor's responses. Cause I just, it was, it was so hard for me to return to it. And I was convinced that all the reviews would be terrible and everyone would hate this book. But I was like, you know what? I, I finished it. I, I fed my kid, I found us a place to live. That's what that book was for. We'll move on. Um, ironically though, that the Circus Rose has gotten the best reviews of any of my first five books. You know, I don't know yet about Reader, but that was a really, uh, humbling for me because it, it showed me that I'm, you know, from a artistic perspective, I'm kind of less in control of the quality of my work than I think I am. And that, um, that you can write from a really raw and vulnerable place that feels really rough and that can actually bring things out of you that, that maybe you would've held back, uh, if you, if you were in a more controlled situation. So I think that was definitely, certainly the biggest professional challenge I've ever encountered was just writing that book under such challenging circumstances. Um, but I'm really proud of it, Not only because I managed to write it to Deadline, but because I did kind of leave my heart on the page, cuz that was all I was able, able to do. So that's something, that's something I try to remind myself of when I write even now.
Speaker 1Yeah. Well that is certainly a challenge. Um, and you, I'm like weirdly proud of you. I'm okay. Are you ready for a bonus round?
Speaker 2All right, let's do it.
Speaker 1Take or pie.
Speaker 2Oh, pie
Speaker 1Music or silence.
Speaker 2Mm. Music, but quiet<laugh>
Speaker 1Writing on a computer or writing in a notebook.
Speaker 2A notebook.
Speaker 1Really? You're like the first person who's ever answered that?
Speaker 2Oh, see, Okay. Well, I can I go back and forth? Yeah. But if I had to choose it would be Notebook. Yes.
Speaker 1I love it. I love it. It's so Victorian of you<laugh>,
Speaker 2But with Beyonce playing. Yeah,
Speaker 1Right.<laugh> get both, both
Speaker 2Worlds in there. Yeah. Yep.
Speaker 1Sunny Beach or Snowy Mountains.
Speaker 2Oh, Sunny Beach.
Speaker 1Would you rather be the ward of a wealthy gentleman or a governance? Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2Oh, Oh, I, I have to say Ward. Yeah.
Speaker 1<laugh>.
Speaker 2Neither sounds great though.<laugh>.
Speaker 1I'd rather I'd They're both questionable for sure.
Speaker 2Yeah. I wanna be the wealthy gentleman. That's,
Speaker 1Would you rather live in a mansion on the Mos or in the heart of London?
Speaker 2Oh, in the heart of London.
Speaker 1What is your number one tip for tackling writer's Block?
Speaker 2Let go of the need for it to be good.
Speaker 1What is one small thing that brings you a lot of joy?
Speaker 2Hmm. Um, let's see. Walking home with my Kid from school.
Speaker 1What book makes you happy?
Speaker 2Ooh, um, recently it has to be Und Drowned by Alexis Pauline Gums. Um, Love it. Yeah.
Speaker 1What are you working on next
Speaker 2In all of, I'm hoping Spare
Speaker 1Time.
Speaker 2Right? I'm hoping to write a book about the Knitting Factory. That's my, my secret plan.<laugh>.
Speaker 1Oh cool. Like a nonfiction.
Speaker 2Yes. Yeah. Hopefully. Yeah. Oh, cool. A memoir about, about, you know, about finding the building and crowdfunding it and all that. So yeah.
Speaker 1Interesting. I love it. Lastly, where can people find you?
Speaker 2Oh, well, um, I'm online, so you can certainly find me on Instagram at Betsy Cornwell or at Old Knitting Factory if you want to, um, follow the renovations and the retreats and that kind of thing. I do hope to be announcing our first in-person retreats at the Knitting Factory fairly soon. And I already run online writing retreats through the Knitting Factory. Um, so you can find me@betsycornwell.com or old kni factory.com. Um, and I also offer a monthly writing group, uh, which is free for single parents and it's available to everybody on a sliding scale through Patreon. So that's, uh, patreon.com/old Kni Factory as well.
Speaker 1Awesome. Betsy, thank you so much for joining me today.
Speaker 2Thank you so much for having me, Marissa. I really appreciate it. It was a lot of fun.
Speaker 1Readers Be sure to check out Reader I murdered him. It comes out on November 15th and is currently available for pre-order. Of course, we encourage you to support your local indie bookstore. If you don't have a local indie, you can check out our affiliate store that is at bookshop.org/shop/marissa Meyer. Next week I will be talking with Caris Evano Cruz about her debut middle grade Fantasy, me and the Ocean of Stars. If you're enjoying this conversations, please subscribe and follow us on Instagram at Marissa Meyer author and at Happy Writer Podcast. Until next time, stay healthy, stay cozy, and whatever life throws at you today, I do hope that now you're feeling a little bit happier.