MG Novel-in-Verse and Fictionalized Memoir with John Schu: Louder Than Hunger

In this week’s episode Marissa chats with John Schu about his semi-autobiographical novel in verse, LOUDER THAN HUNGER. Also discussed: the difficulty in determining an age label for a book, writing a fictionalized account of your own experiences instead of a memoir and deciding when and how much to fictionalize, the healing power of writing from a place of vulnerability, making the choice to write in verse, struggling with compliments and so much more.

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Transcript

[00:12] Marissa : Hello and welcome to the Happy writer. This is a podcast that aims to bring readers more books to enjoy and to help authors find more joy in their writing. I am your host, Marissa Meyer. Thank you so much for joining me. One thing making me happy this week is that the girls and I have decided to try our hand at a vegetable garden again. We had one many, many years ago when the girls were really little, but it is so much work. So we kind of gave up on it after a while and haven't done one for a few years. But this year I am motivated. We have these beautiful garden beds at our new place, and they are just screaming for something to grow in them. So we went to the nursery and we got some seed packets and some potting soil, and we're doing the whole shebang. So we've got little tiny seedlings growing, and I can't even. There's cabbages and beets and onions and lettuce, I think is the other one. It doesn't matter. I don't know. This is such a silly thing. And I know a lot of people are like, yes, Marissa, you plant a seed in the ground and you give it water and sunshine and it grows and it's not that big of a deal. I think it is such a big deal, it blows my mind. It does not matter how often I have seen this process, but to watch a teeny, tiny seed grow into, like a legit, full on plant is mind boggling to me every time. And I just am awestruck at how cool this is, proving once again it really is. The little things in life get it. Little things. Yes, Marissa, we get it. Okay. Anyway, moving on. I am also so happy to be talking to today's guest. He is the author of the acclaimed picture books this is a school and this is a story. As well as the adult nonfiction book the gift of story, exploring the effective side of the reading life. He is also a children's librarian for bookalicious, a part time lecturer at Rutgers University, and a former ambassador of school libraries for scholastic book fairs. His latest novel, Louder than hunger, comes out next week on March 19 and is currently available for preorder. Please welcome John Shu.

[02:32] John: Thank you so much for that beautiful introduction. And I think we could spend the entire time talking about your garden, and I think there's a picture book idea there. I see this as a picture book, which I'm excited to read in the future. No pressure, but it sounded like the perfect picture book.

[02:51] Marissa : Yeah. My girls, one of their favorite picture books from when they were just babies. And we had a board book growing a rainbow, which is like a classic. And that was one of their favorites. And of course, we haven't read it. They're nine now, so we haven't been reading a whole lot of board books lately. But after we planted all the seeds, one of my daughters was like, oh, we have to go read that book. And I was amazed that she even remembered it.

[03:15] John: I would say that that book then is tattooed on her heart. The guarding. Yeah. That she went right back to the feelings that she had and the experiences that you all had over the story. That's really beautiful.

[03:28] Marissa : Yeah, no, it's a great little picture book, very simple. But one of those that reading it to them again at nine years old was like a different book than reading it to them when they were two. And you can just point out different things and they have more connections now, and it talks about the different flowers and like, oh, they know what a Zinnia is now and different things. It's just special. Board books and picture books are the best. I love them.

[03:51] John: Well, I think that's what's so special about rereading books is we're always at a different point in our lives when we experience a story. And often certain threads or themes don't resonate with us when we're younger as they do when we're older. So I'm so happy that you're going back and revisiting picture books from when they were younger.

[04:10] Marissa : Yeah. No, I don't think I could part with them. They take up a lot of shelves in my office. But you do find yourself going back to them even as the girls get older. And I find myself wondering, am I still going to be reading these books with them when they're 15? 1617. And I obviously don't know the answer to that, but a part of me kind of hopes.

[04:32] John: So, no, I think so. And I think there'll be a day that maybe they'll be in a box and you'll all find that box in a closet and you'll pull it out, and every single picture book, every single book that you've experienced together will have its own story about the time that you read it, the time you experienced it. So. Yeah, that's really beautiful. Sorry, we're going on a whole different.

[04:53] Marissa : Tangent, but this is what we do. Why talk about our books? We can talk everybody about everyone else's books that we love so much. No, but I remember when I first moved out of my parents house, went to college, had a roommate blah, blah, blah. And, like, years later, my mom brought me the box of books that she had saved from when I was little. And it was like finding buried treasure. I mean, I'm just such joy in revisiting them.

[05:21] John: Yeah. I had that experience when I went to the public library from my childhood, and they still had a lot of the exact copies that I checked out. And I could even tell by they still had the old library cards in a lot of the books. And I'd be like, oh, yeah, I'm the person that checked that out in June 1987 and in July 1987. And I honestly had forgotten about those books. But it brought me right back to who I was at that time. And the reason I went back to that library was because I was visiting a lot of the places from my childhood as I was revising my book louder than hunger.

[05:57] Marissa : I love that how. What incredible nostalgia. Yeah, no, that's great. And libraries are so special, and of course, so many of us can kind of, like, track our love of books right back to our library, our early library experiences. And just knowing, like, here is where I belong. This is my.

[06:18] John: Yeah. And I used to play school almost every single day in elementary school, and I would also play library. And from where I'm standing right now in my home office, I can see the box that has the library cards that I used to create for my imaginary students. And I only had imaginary students because I was very controlling when it came to playing school. And none of the kids in the neighborhood would play school or library with me. My stuffed animals loved playing library in my imaginary.

[06:52] Marissa : You don't want to do what I'm telling you. Bye. And I'll find something. I love that. All right, so we've already kind of started to hint at your journey as a writer, but this is the first thing I'd love to talk with my guests about. What is your origin story? How did you come to become a published author?

[07:12] John: Yeah. So if it's all right, I'm going to go all the way back to 1986. Well, I feel like I became a reader in the year 1986. So in 1986, I was always with my grandma. My grandma was my best friend. My grandma was my babysitter. My grandma was the person who I think understood me the best. And my grandma and I would go to multiple grocery stores every Saturday because my grandma loved coupons, and she had this big coupon container that was bright red. And we would go from store to store to use the coupons, even if she didn't need the item, but she had the coupon. And I will connect this back to literacy in a moment. But my favorite grocery store to go to on Saturdays was Jewel Osco, which is Albertson's and a lot of other places in the United States. And I loved going there so much because they always had books that you could buy near the checkout aisle. And for a very, very long time, they featured the Walt Disney collection. And there was, like, 26 or 27 books in every single set. And I'll never forget that year that in 1986, my grandma brought me goofy's big race. And it was a book that I was read to over and over and over again, read to so many times that I eventually memorized the book, and I really contributed to me learning how to read. And later, we can connect that book back to louder than hunger, because in many ways, I feel that Kufi's big race is a character in that book. And so that was, like, my gateway book. And then when I was a child, my aunt owned a video store, and I love talking to kids about video stores because it's so complex to them that, wait, there was a place that you would go to, and you would take home vhs and eventually dvds. But anyway, my aunt owned the town video store, and so I had unlimited access to movies, and I would pretty much read any book that was based on a movie. And in second grade, my favorite movie was Oliver and company, and then it became my favorite book. And I love encouraging teachers to bless novelizations, to never look down upon them, because I truly believe I'm a reader today because of those types of books. And something that I would often do with Goofy's big race and with the novelizations is I would copy, word for word, the stories into my notebooks. And so I think my early days as a writer was plagiarizing everything.

[09:52] Marissa : We all did a little bit of plagiarizing.

[09:55] John: I would change a few things, but I was like, oh, one day I'm going to be able to write stories like these. And then, like, went away from that for a very long time. I think I stopped seeing myself as a writer maybe in the third grade. And then when I went off to college, and I always knew I wanted to be an elementary school teacher. And my undergraduate degree is in elementary education. And during those years, I worked at Barnes and Noble, and Barnes and Noble is when I really fell in love with reading a lot of books, because I always got to do story time, and I got to dress up in the costumes. Like, I got to be like, blues from blues clues and the cat in the hat. And I get to go to local elementary schools, and it felt so, so amazing to be able to do those things. And so when I became a third grade teacher, the read aloud and book talking was such a central part of everything that I did. And then I became a fourth grade teacher, and then I went to school to learn how to be a librarian. And for nine years, I was a school librarian. And during that time, there is someone named Molly O'Neill who saw me interacting with my students. And she reached out to me and she said, you feel like a natural storyteller to me, and I see you as a writer. And I wrote her back, and I said, absolutely not. I do not see myself in that way, and I don't have any stories in me. And at the time that Molly O'Neill sent me that email, she was an editor at Harper Collins. And then she went on to do other things. And then we eventually connected again. And when we connected, she was an agent. And she said, are you ready to write now? I said, absolutely not. And then, this is a very long story. I'm sorry, how I became a writer.

[11:42] Marissa : I am on the edge of my seat to see how the computer results.

[11:46] John: So then Molly reached out a few more times, and the answer was always no. And then in the year 2017, Amy Krause Rosenthal passed away. And I loved all of Amy Krause Rosenthal's books. And I live in the Chicagoland area. And she used to always do really cool challenges in the city of Chicago. And I'd interviewed her, and I always enjoyed communicating with her on Twitter. But she was keeping a secret. The secret that she had cancer, that she had terminal cancer. And then in 2017, she wrote a piece for the New York Times that went viral in which she was looking for a new wife or her husband before she passed away. And it was really poignant. And there was lots of white space at the end of the piece because the story wasn't over yet. And then two weeks later, she passed away. And the day after she passed away, story Corps released a conversation in which she chats with her then 19 year old daughter, Paris Rosenthal, about life and story. And in it, she says, make the most of your time here. And truly, when I heard that, it resonated so much with me. And I wrote Molly O'Neill, and I said, I'm ready now. I'm ready to tell my own stories. I'm ready to make the most of my time here. And so my first book that I sold, which was actually my third book to come out is this is a story, and that's the reason it's dedicated to Amy Krause Rosenthal.

[13:17] Marissa : Oh, my goodness.

[13:18] John: Yeah. So that is my origin story. Yeah.

[13:22] Marissa : Okay. There's so much. Now that you have written books and you have published books, can you look back on all those years when you were thinking, no, I'm not a writer. No, I'm not a writer, and see signs of clearly you were a writer and you just hadn't become aware of that yet.

[13:45] John: Yeah, no, I think so. I think I saw that early as a teacher and somebody who started presenting a lot at local conferences, the national conferences, and when I was ambassador of school libraries, I was traveling 220 days a year, meeting with thousands and thousands of kids every single year, and I was starting to see what Molly saw inside of me. But as I explore in louder than hunger, that inner saboteur, that voice, a voice that I have skills now to manage, was always loud when it came to seeing myself as a writer, because, no, you're not a writer. Only very smart people are writers. Only people like this are writers. So I think I kind of talked myself out of it, or my inner saboteur talked to me out of it.

[14:34] Marissa : Sure. No, that makes so much sense. I do think it's fascinating that you heard this or read this article, and the line that just hooked into you was, make the most of your time. And for so many people, that could mean so many things, but for you, it was like, oh, throwing open the door and saying, actually, I am a writer. Let's do this. And I think that's so cool.

[15:01] John: Well, and I think there's so much space there. When you said that, I thought about your garden. Yeah. This is the time you're going to do the garden this time. And if it doesn't completely go the way you want it, there's always another time to try it.

[15:14] Marissa : No, absolutely. A believer in living the most. Life is short. It really is. And it's easy to forget that. But honestly, I think it's a problem my husband and I try to fill probably too much of our time. We're always like, why are we always so busy? We should probably try to rest more. Life is short.

[15:35] John: There's a lot to do. Yeah.

[15:37] Marissa : All right, so here we are. You've written two picture books, you've written an adult nonfiction book, and now you have your first. Are you calling it middle grade? Ya.

[15:48] John: I feel like, yeah, it's one of those books that's complicated in bookseller terms, to place. Yeah. And so a lot of people are calling it middle grade. I don't really think it's middle grade because middle grade ages eight to twelve, I think it's middle school, but not enough. People call books like this middle school, but it's not ya. And so it kind of has an identity crisis. So I think just buy it, everyone.

[16:17] Marissa : And then you can decide.

[16:19] John: Does not matter because I'm a librarian and my librarian hat can never be taken off when I'm speaking with librarians. This is what I always say. I say my librarian brain says that it's best for second semester of 6th grade and up. And no publisher is going to put on a book best for second semester of 6th grade and up. But I've had enough experience now talking to middle school students about the book that I see that's where it starts to resonate the most, is when they're not fifth graders anymore. I love presenting to first semester 6th graders because they very much remind me of fifth graders. But I say, like, pretty firm. Into middle school, you're in your second semester of middle school.

[17:07] Marissa : Okay. But then into eternity, certainly I think anyone at any age, I know I loved this book and I found it to be so powerful, so poignant. I think it's fantastic and everyone should go buy it.

[17:22] John: Thank you. What did you think when you were reading it? What age group did you feel it would resonate most? Sorry that I'm turning it around.

[17:29] Marissa : Yeah, no, I mean, it truly is one of those that is difficult to place. A lot of times people want to base the age range based on the protagonist. And so we have a protagonist who's 13 and then becomes 14 during the book. But I don't think it's a book that relies on age. I think it's much more about what a person needs to be reading and what is their own experiences and what are they going to get out of this book. And I think that can happen at any age.

[18:03] John: And I think it's because of a lot of the flashbacks. I think it's the flashbacks where Jake goes like, back to 1986, he goes to 87, 80, and you kind of get to see him go through elementary school leading up to eigth grade. And I think that's one of the reasons it makes it a bit harder to say this is the age group that it's best for. Yeah.

[18:27] Marissa : It'S. Do you want an encouraging writing community with critique partners twice a month, masterclasses, opportunities to be in an anthology or connect with literary agents, valuable publishing advice and more? Then you have to check out the Red Herring Society. It's a monthly mastermind group hosted by savvy bestselling authors Mary Weber and CJ Redwine, and by using code happywriter@redheringwriters.com. You can try the first month for free and start elevating your career today. Again, that's code happywriter at Redharingwriters comarketers. If you're looking to increase sales, there is a marketing agency that specializes in optimizing and advertising on Amazon. Amplify Marketing Services was founded by Franklin, who has been in the book business for more than 20 years. Amplify has promoted over 30,000 books, and they invest millions of dollars each year in Amazon ads. Head to amplifymarketers.com to explore their free articles, or set up a free meeting with Franklin. That's amplifymarketers.com. Here at the happy writer we are all about staying positive. But not every day can be a happy writing day. We all sometimes run into difficult plots and characters who won't cooperate, even the dreaded writer's block. That's where my good friend Jessica Brody comes in. Jessica is the author of the best selling Save the Cat writes a novel, Plotting Guides, which I often talk about as my goto writing resource. She's also the founder of the Writing Mastery Academy. With 13 on demand writing courses, including the official Save the cat novel writing course, regular live webinars, and a supportive online community, the writing mastery Academy equips you with tools to navigate the writing process, making each day more productive and fulfilling. So don't let a bad writing day turn into a no writing day. Go to writingmastery.com to start your free preview. When you're ready to join. Get $20 off your first year of unlimited access by selecting an annual membership and using coupon code happy writer at checkout. That's writingmastery.com code happywriter. You all right? So with that, would you please tell listeners, what is this book about?

[21:07] John: So louder than hunger is a novel and verse. The main character's name is Jake Edward Stacy, and my legal name is John Edward Schumacher. And so Jake and I have the same initials because Jake's story is based on my own story. And when I tell people that, they say, well, why didn't you just write John Shoe's story or John Schumacher's story? And the reason is because I didn't want to write a memoir, and I also needed a little bit of distance from myself. And I also felt protective of some people in my own life, and I didn't want to have to write them into the story, or maybe not write the whole truth or get permission to write about the truth. And so it felt best for me to write a story based on my own experiences. And so in the first act of the book, and I really see the book in four acts, we meet Jake Stacy in the year 1996, and he's in the 8th grade, and he's spiraling out of control because there's this very loud voice, and he names it voice with a capital v, who's telling him that he's unworthy of taking up space and that he's an awful person and that he's repulsive. And the less he eats, the more that he listens to that voice. And in act two of the book, Jake is hospitalized in a place called Whispering Pines. And in the beginning, he is resisting all treatment. In the beginning, he thinks this is all a horrible, big mistake. And as Jake refeeds, he's able to start addressing some of the reasons that he's there. And during his time at whispering Pines, he's diagnosed with anorexia nervosa, obsessive compulsive disorder, depression, and anxiety. And those are all things that I was diagnosed with when I was in the 8th grade. And throughout Jake's time in whispering pines, you see him start to do better, and then he always goes back a bit, and there's lots of trials and tribulations. And then later in the book, Jake, for a variety of reasons, starts to listen a bit more to his therapist and to his counselors. And it's always really interesting talking about this book with people who know my life's work really, really well, because they know that Jake does turn out okay, that he goes on to become a teacher and a librarian and really dedicates his life to connecting with kids through story. And I think the reason I love visiting schools so much is because when I go to schools, especially when I work with groups of 300 to 400 kids, I'm always looking for the little jakes of the world and the little Johnny Schus of the world to see how can I connect with them in this moment and maybe just help make life a little bit easier and a little bit better and a little bit more. So there's my book talk.

[24:02] Marissa : Yeah, I love that you mentioned that, because that is so true, I think for writers who do school visits, because I feel the same way. I always feel like in every crowd, there is one little Marissa. And I'm hoping that that student connects with my story of becoming a writer and working really hard and pursuing their dreams, and maybe they want to be a writer, or maybe it's some other creative passion that they have. But it is so true that you feel like in every crowd, there's one kid that you're speaking to out of these 400.

[24:34] John: Yeah, it is. It's miraculous. I had a really hard time admitting it until I wrote my book, the gift of story, because I thought people would think that was, like, too woo woo. When I'm standing up there, I really can see into their heart and into their soul and figure out ways to connect individually with them. And it's a little bit easier because in my school visit presentations, every book that I talk about, and I don't talk very much about my own books, every book that I talk about, I give away. And I'm always doing heart work to figure out whose heart truly needs this book. And then during the book signing, always, because even if I didn't write it, I can still write something in the book for them. They often disclose something that's going on in their life or if they're too young to feel comfortable, to not say too young, but just maybe don't have the skills to articulate in the moment, like, what they're going through, like their teacher or their librarian or their principal always can.

[25:30] Marissa : Yeah, I love that. So talk a little bit more about. So you make the decision, and I think all of your reasons for choosing to do this as a fictionalized version of your experiences as opposed to writing a memoir, that makes so much sense, why you chose that. How was that difficult as far as deciding when to change reality, how much truth to include, versus what to fictionalize?

[25:55] John: Yeah. Oh, it was so hard. It was so hard. Sometimes I was like, why don't I just write a memoir? I didn't tell my agent I was working on this book for a really long time because I just needed to get at least 100 pages out of me to see if is there something here? And so once I had 100 pages, I read aloud the entire thing to Molly, and she loved it. But she said, john, you're writing a memoir. It's only you. It's all Jake. There's no one else. And I said, well, I don't know. I don't know what else is going on around him because I didn't want to write my true story in the facility where I was. And I walked away from that going, well, maybe I have to do it as memoir, or maybe this just will never be a book. And then I went back, and Molly's voice was in my head. And I knew that I was able to do it because really, really wanted to write this story and that I would be able to figure out ways to change the truth and to bring other people into the story. And I think the reason it's so hard for me is because I've always memorized dates and memorized exactly what people say and take in everything. And it stays with me for a long time. And sometimes it feels like a huge gift, but sometimes it feels like a curse where I'll run into somebody at a conference and I can tell them every single thing about the last time we met or what color shirt they were wearing, the last time we saw each other and where they were sitting. And it just comes out of me because I'm always observing and I'm always keeping that with me because I feel in many ways, I'm a collector of other people's stories. And so eventually, I was able to do it, thanks to Molly and thanks to Susan van Meter, who helped me go away from the truth when it needed to be and helped me bring in other characters, really, for the reader's.

[27:55] Marissa : Yeah.

[27:56] John: Yeah.

[27:56] Marissa : You mentioned that writing it as Jake as opposed to as John kind of offered you a little bit of distance. And I think it's interesting because there's a note at the back of the book, and you mentioned how writing this story, it both hurt and healed your heart and that it was very therapeutic for you. Can you talk a little bit more about that? Because I know a lot of writers do find writing about grief or trauma, it can be very therapeutic. But can it also be really hard?

[28:28] John: Yeah. And that didn't truly hit me until I recorded my author's note for the audiobook, which I thought would be really easy. But it was so challenging, and I was so emotional. And I'm grateful that in the recording that's in the audiobook, you can hear me choking up. I didn't ask them to use that, but I thought maybe they would use a bit of that. And the reason I think it was so emotional is because I realized fully for the first time how writing this book took so much vulnerability and how much I enjoyed spending time with my younger self. Although it was painful, it helped me. I'm going to quote Kate C. Camillo now. It helped me excavate the grief of my childhood, and it allowed me to figure out why certain things bother me as an adult, and it helped me better understand some of my idiosyncrasies as an adult. And it also helped me remember things from my childhood that were really hurtful. And I think I tried guarding myself from my whole life, but it affected me so deeply. And then once I wrote this story, I was able to let go of a lot of those things, and I think I was able to forgive some people in my family.

[29:53] Marissa : Powerful in and of itself. Yeah.

[29:54] John: And everything I'm saying right now, I've never said before, so you're getting a lot out of me.

[29:59] Marissa : Thank you. I do that all the time, where I'll be doing q and a at an event or doing an interview, and someone will ask a question. It's like, well, I've never thought of that, but here comes all of my thoughts that I didn't.

[30:15] John: KhD Camilla was on my mind. I'm like, okay, I'm going to quote KhD Camilla right here, because that's what helped me answer your question. Thinking about hearing her say that once, about excavating grief and what it means to do that.

[30:29] Marissa : Yeah, no, that is a great quote. Why write it in verse?

[30:35] John: I love that question. So I loved poetry when I was a kid, so I loved light in the attic, and I would memorize all the poems, and I would make my imaginary students memorize the poems.

[30:49] Marissa : How did they do?

[30:51] John: They didn't always do well. I tell a story related to chicken soup with rice, based on a story that I wrote in an anthology called the Creativity Project, where I once just was so fed up with those kids that they were not taking memorizing Maurice Sendek's poetry seriously enough. And I realized when I was revising louder than hunger, that is what I was doing in my bedroom when I was yelling at those kids was I was yelling at the bullies of my childhood, that I was saying out loud in a safe space what I never felt comfortable saying in a public space. And that was, like, again, an aha. Moment that I didn't realize when I was writing the piece and the creativity project, of course, when I was doing it as a child, but I loved poetry, and I would memorize poems. And then something happened that happens to many people as I got older. Poetry felt like such a chore, and poetry felt like so much work, and poetry felt like something that you only analyze. And so I fell out of love with poetry, with the exception of discovering Emily Dickinson. And I just really felt connected to her in many ways. And I would think about her portrait a lot when I was hospitalized. And so I came back to poetry when I was working at Barnes and Noble during college, where I discovered love that dog by Sharon Creech. And I was like, this is really fun poetry. And this is so lyrical. And I love the way she tells this story. And then that led me to out of the dust, which led me to a few other books, but there weren't as many novel inverse then. And to this day I read any novel in verse I can get my hands on. And I think the reason I love novels inverse so much is because of the white space and the margin. And also because often in a novel inverse, it's a very heavy topic, a very raw topic that I think is better digested as a novel inverse. And so I didn't quite know what I was working on when I started writing what now is louder than hunger, but I could hear my middle school voice really loud. And I started writing in my notebook poems that are now like the opening of the second act of louder than hunger. Those first six or seven poems came out of me exactly like they are in the book. And I knew I needed to keep going in verse, so I hope I answered that. But I love novels in verse.

[33:29] Marissa : I do too. And I admit I don't read a ton of them, but the ones that I do read seem to stick with me more so than all of the prose novels I read. And I think what you said about how so often this style is used to tackle topics that are intense and challenging and difficult, but there is something about that. The novel inverse. And I don't know if it's the white space or that, just the quickness of short poems or whatever it is, but it can make some of these topics just feel more approachable in some ways.

[34:08] John: Yeah. And I think it's easy to move things around, like a lot of the poems, especially in act one, what I keep referring to act one, like Susan van Meter and I played with. But what if we put the poem here instead of here? And I think it would be harder to do that, like moving. Not always. You can't always move chapter four to chapter one or chapter three to chapter six without doing lots of rewriting. But with the novel verse, it was a little bit easier, I think also I was able to show Jake's anxiety better because the way that he plays with the page and something that I think is really interesting that I didn't realize until people told me that I did it, is that Jake has a really hard time taking up space in the real world. But he can take up a lot of space on the page. Like he likes to fill the page and he likes to make words bigger and then smaller. But for himself, he can't. So, yeah, I thought that was interesting that somebody pointed it out. I was like, yeah, I did do that, though. That was intentional, but I wasn't quite realizing how necessary that was.

[35:12] Marissa : Yeah, no, that makes so much sense and definitely applies to this character. Very much so. You've mentioned some of the things that were maybe made easier by doing the novel inverse as opposed to prose. What were some particular challenges you felt of writing in verse?

[35:33] John: Challenges of writing in verse? Obviously, a lot of the book was challenging to write, but verse always made it easier. Okay. Yeah. And a strategy, though, that I would use sometimes that I'm remembering is that if I was struggling to write it as a poem, I would switch to writing it as a letter, because I've realized that my letter writing voice is often poetic, and I play with spacing a lot, and I am always behind on email, but I find something soothing about writing emails because of writing them in the form of a letter. And so whenever a poem was challenging, I would write it out as a letter, and then I would figure out how to rewrite it as a poem, which I think is why we end up having more letters in the book than I had originally intended.

[36:27] Marissa : Yeah. No, I love that. Sometimes you just need to do a little something different. Get your writer brain to work with you.

[36:35] John: Yeah. Like manipulate it sometimes.

[36:38] Marissa : Yeah, I'm all about manipulating my writer brain. You don't want to do that. Well, I'll make you do this instead, and you won't even know where. What was the process? Did you outline or figure out plot ahead at all, or was this very much kind of riding by the seat of your pants, letting it flow to get the story out? What did revisions look like?

[37:05] John: Yeah, it really was. There was no outlining. A lot of the poems I have no memory of writing, actually, because I stay up really late. And so I would often write the poems, like, at three and four in the morning, and then I would go back to them a few weeks later, being like, oh, wow, I have no memory of writing this, but I like this. Maybe my inner saboteur isn't as loud then. And so I didn't. It was just always like, all right, where can we go next? And what was going on in my own life? And I think it was probably easier because so much of it is just based on the timeline of my own life. The revision process ended up being six drafts, but the early drafts, draft two and three, was just so focused on certain things that it didn't feel overwhelming. I think the fourth and fifth draft were the hardest because that's when I had to just go a little bit deeper, and it was when I had to hurt the character a few more times. And that's where it was like the pain of, I'm sorry, Jake, I've just got to hurt you one more time.

[38:12] Marissa : Yeah, no, that's interesting because we talk a lot about that on this podcast and how, as the writer, your job is to put your character through a lot of difficult stuff because that's what makes them change and grow and how they earn what know, often, although not always, but usually a happy ending. Do you think that was different because Jake has so much of you in him?

[38:36] John: Yeah, I think you're hurting yourself. And it would be like, okay, Jake, I can't have, you know, you're not to the point yet where you can be like, I'm going to eat now and I'm going to be okay, and I'm going to go with this because it would just be so unrealistic. And it was really important to me that the story didn't end super pat. Like, Jake is fine now, and now he's going to go off into the world and he's not going to have any problems because that's what so many after school stories that were harmful. Let me rephrase. There were a lot of after school specials and books about eating disorders in the, that I think were really harmful because they, one, taught people how to have an eating disorder, and then two, they often had really unrealistic endings.

[39:28] Marissa : I've got one last question before we move on to our bonus round. I know that this book has been receiving a ton of early praise, and it is all 100% deserved. People are saying this book is necessary. It's important. It's going to change lives. And for the record, I agree with those statements. It is powerful. But what do you think? Or what do you feel, especially being someone who didn't really see yourself as a writer until fairly recently, what do you feel when you hear those statements?

[40:00] John: Yeah, I feel really overwhelmed. I've always had a really hard time with compliments. I can get 100 compliments and then one negative comment, and I will only think about the negative. I will only fixate on that. And in my own presentation style, we talked about this earlier. Every book I talk about, I give away, and I always have things to give away to people, and I always like to turn it back around onto them. And so with all of my books, especially this one, though, when people are praising it. I want to naturally turn around and start talking about them and something in their lives. But I've been practicing really hard for the last few weeks of accepting it and also sharing that this is making me uncomfortable right now. But I thank you, and you can keep going with the praise, but I hope it becomes easier, because I find compliments to be really hard.

[40:59] Marissa : Yeah.

[40:59] John: So I'm grateful. So thank you for your nice compliments, and I'm grateful for all the wonderful feedback.

[41:06] Marissa : Yeah, it's funny because you're saying that it makes you uncomfortable. And I go right to. Like, whenever my mom reads one of my books, she always wants to talk to me about it afterwards, and she always has really nice things. Of course, it's my mom. But I'm always like, please don't talk to me about it. I don't want to hear your nice things. I just want to pretend that nobody ever actually reads it.

[41:28] John: Yeah, it is. I think that's the voice. We all have a voice. Yeah.

[41:35] Marissa : No, it is really hard. The idea that you hear 100 nice things in one negative, and that's the one you fixate on. I think that that's so true for everybody. And it's hard. It's really hard to say, okay, the book wasn't for that person, for whatever reason, but let's focus on the people that it was for.

[41:55] John: Yeah. And I love all of my editors. And whenever I open that letter, I take a deep breath, and usually it starts with positive. And then I read all the things that need to make it better. And then I go on a very long walk, and I start to hatch a plan, and then I stay away from it for a few days, and then I always go back and say, no, they're not criticizing me. They're not attacking me personally. And we can do this together. We can make this better together.

[42:23] Marissa : Yeah. That's the hardest moment of writing any book, at least for me, is getting the feedback, whether it's from my editor or my beta reader.

[42:32] John: Oh, it is.

[42:33] Marissa : In the end, it's always fine. It's totally survivable. And then you take that advice and you write an even better book, and it's a good thing. Of course, it's an important part of the process, but, oh, that first moment when you read it is so hard.

[42:49] John: Especially with a book, like, louder than hunger, where you're like, they're criticizing me as a person, actually are now.

[42:55] Marissa : Yeah. No, that makes so much sense.

[42:58] John: Be like, I actually said that. I actually did that.

[43:02] Marissa : Yeah. What's the thing about how fiction is different from reality because fiction actually has to make.

[43:09] John: Yeah. Yeah. Somebody's like, well, no, that I actually did this.

[43:13] Marissa : Yeah. All right, John, are you ready for our bonus? What book makes you the.

[43:20] John: The one and only Ivan by Catherine Applejay, which is a very sad book, but it has a hopeful ending. And I feel like I'm where I am today because of that book.

[43:30] Marissa : Oh, I love that. And I love Catherine and I love that book. And I am from Ivan. I met Ivan. I knew Ivan. What a great choice.

[43:42] John: Thank you.

[43:43] Marissa : What are you working on next?

[43:46] John: So right now I am revising the companion to a book that comes out in 2025. And the book that comes out in 2025 is called Ruthie Rose's big idea. And it's all about poetry and possibilities. And I just turned in the second draft of the companion to that book that I'm not allowed to talk about yet.

[44:10] Marissa : I love it. And are these picture books?

[44:14] John: They're picture books. Yeah. Sorry, I'm back in the picture book space. And then I just finished revising the third book in the. This is a series.

[44:23] Marissa : Oh, lovely. Lastly, where can people find you at.

[44:28] John: Mrshu reads in most places or johnshu.com.

[44:34] Marissa : Awesome. John, thank you so much for joining.

[44:36] John: Oh, thank you so much. You are so wonderful and I love your writing and I love the joy and the happiness that you put out into the world. And I'm looking forward to updates about your garden.

[44:47] Marissa : Thank you. I'll definitely put some stuff up on Instagram. Let's fingers crossed. Readers, definitely check out louder than hunger, which comes out next week and is currently available for pre order. Of course, we encourage you to support your local indie bookstore. If you don't have a local indie, you can check out our affiliate store@bookshop.org, slash shop Slash Marissa Meyer. And don't forget to check out our happy writer merchandise on etsy, Instagram and tpublic. Next week we have a special sponsored episode from Amplify Marketers in which I will be talking with their founder, Franklin, all about some best marketing practices for authors and publishers. I know I am ready to take notes on that. If you're enjoying these conversations, please subscribe and follow us on Instagram at Marissa Meyer, author and at Happy Writer podcast. Until next time, stay inspired, keep writing, and whatever life throws at you today, I hope that now you're feeling a little bit happier.