Unique Magic Systems & Endearingly Flawed Protagonists - Ana Ellickson - The Vanishing Station

Marissa chats with Ana Ellickson about her debut YA urban fantasy, THE VANISHING STATION. Also discussed: having the courage to leave an agent even before selling a book, developing complex magic systems and how helpful editors can be for ensuring they work, using locations—known and unknown—as settings for urban fantasy, creating three-dimensional but lovable flawed characters, using Save the Cat beat sheets, the importance of opening chapters, and so much more!

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Transcript

[ADVERTISEMENT] Marissa: Are you struggling to turn your brilliant idea into a fully plotted novel? Discover the method that has helped hundreds of thousands of writers master the art of storytelling. It's called Save the Cat. You might have heard me talk about the book. Save the Cat writes a novel by Jessica Brody, which I have personally used to get me out of many plotting jams. But did you know there's also an official online course taught by Jessica herself? The Save the cat novel writing course is designed to give you everything you need to fully grasp the Save the cat method and turn you into a master storyteller in less than 4 hours. It's like having Jessica as your on demand story coach guiding you through the entire novel writing process. Start the course for free@writingmastery.com. Dot when you're ready to join, get dollar 20 off your first year of unlimited access to all writing mastery courses by selecting the annual membership and using coupon code happywriter at checkout. That's writingmastery.com happywriter. Hello and welcome to the happy writer. This is a podcast that aims to bring readers more books to enjoy and to help authors find more joy in their writing. I am your host, Marissa Meyer. Thank you so much for joining me. What's been making me happy this week is a new app. Well, it's not a new app, but it's new to me. I'm probably like the last person in the world to discover it because that's kind of how it goes sometimes. But the app is called picture this, and it's for plant identification, which sounds really nerdy, but it's actually, like, really, really cool. You use the app to take a picture of a plant or a flower or a tree, and not only will it tell you what that plant is, but it also is, like, full of all this information. It can tell, based on the picture you took, if the plant is healthy, if it needs more water or less water, if it needs fertilizer, it can tell you, like, specific nutrients to add to it. And then you could, like, set up alert so that you know when it's time to move a house, plant outside, or when it's time to prune something. It's so cool and so smart, and I definitely spent way too much time on it this week, walking around, scanning every single plant I could find. Um, I learned so much. So who knows? I might yet become a halfway decent gardener. It could happen with the help of technology. I am, of course, so happy to be talking to today's guest. Her graphic novel script about street art and filipino monsters titled Roman the Renegade, was awarded the 2021 New Visions honor by Lee and Lowe books, and her debut novel, the Vanishing Station, is coming out next week on April 30. Please welcome Anna Ellicsen.

[03:13] Ana: Hello. Thank you so much for having me. I've always wanted to be on your show since it's a one I pleasure listen to often.

[03:22] Marissa: I am very, very glad to hear that, and I'm very excited to have you. I really, really loved this book, and I'm excited to get to talk about it.

[03:33] Ana: Me too. Can't wait.

[03:34] Marissa: All right, so since you've heard the podcast, you won't be surprised by my first question. I want to know your origin story. This is your debut novel coming out in a week. How did that happen? Oh, origin stories.

[03:50] Ana: I love them, too. I'd say growing up, I was a huge reader. My favorite Disney movie was Beauty and the Beast because I related so much to Belle's character. And I would have loved having that library in the castle.

[04:05] Marissa: Yeah. Relatable. So relatable. Yes. Right?

[04:10] Ana: So as a teenager, I wrote a lot of angsty poetry, which I'm glad no one will have ever read. But I didn't really start writing fiction until sometime after college when I took a short story class for fun at a local community college. So I was dabbling in some short stories and didn't think I could write anything longer than maybe like ten pages. But then I tried NaNoWriMo, which for folks who haven't heard of it, it's national novel writing month, where you write 50,000 words in a single month. And I managed to do that. And I think it was maybe 2014 or so. And after that, it really gave me a lot of confidence in myself that I could write that much. It was probably a terrible novel, and I don't think I ever finished it fully, but still, I eventually got to a point where I finished a first novel in 2015, and I actually signed with an agent back through that Twitter pitching contest called DV Pitt. It was a great kid lit agency. But then two of my novels didn't sell on sub, which was very much heartbreaking, and, you know, even more so, I got, you know, great praise from editors, but it just wasn't enough for a book deal. So it was definitely a low point, and I definitely had to make a decision about whether to stay with that agent or not. So I did gather the courage to leave that agent in maybe 2020. I just felt like I'd failed on sub and I was never going to make it as an author. And I thought, oh, my gosh, no agent is going to want to rep me again. But then fast forward to later in 2020. I had a new idea for a book that just kept popping into my imagination, and this eventually became the vanishing station. At the time, it was called whispers on a train. And I just loved it so much. It was me finally writing for fun again and for myself and especially for my little teenage self, who is so full of longing and would have loved this book. So I queried it after I finished it, and I ended up finding my dream agent, Carrie Sparks and Rebecca Rod, at LGR. And they ended up selling the vanishing station at auction for a two book deal. And I got, like five publishers making offers, which totally blew me away, especially after not selling books at the beginning. And it was nerve wracking, but also such a dream come true. And, yeah, I just feel so lucky.

[06:51] Marissa: And now here you are, and congratulations on the book coming out.

[06:56] Ana: Thank you. Yes. I mean, I can't believe I actually get to hold it in my hands. It's been so fun seeing the finished copies.

[07:03] Marissa: So I want to go back a little bit in your story because actually, just a couple of episodes ago, actually, as I'm saying that, I realized that it hasn't actually gone live yet, as per this date that you and I are talking, but it will be out by the time your episode goes up. We had a full episode all about what happens after you get an agent and the actual life of a published author. And one of the questions that we had gotten that we talked about during that episode was, how does a person, how does an author make the decision to leave an agent, which is so difficult, and I know so many friends who have been there and had to struggle with that for you. What were some of the things that you kind of battled with, and what were some of the things that ultimately gave you the courage to make that change?

[07:57] Ana: Yeah. Oh, so scary to do, because everyone knows how hard it is to get an agent to believe in, want to champion your work in the first place. And then it was a lot of me wondering if my writing was good enough since obviously it hadn't sold to editors. So it's battling a lot of those feelings. But I think the key turning point for me was just knowing that I couldn't see a future with this. This person anymore and that I didn't feel like we were a good fit and that I was better off kind of trying my luck elsewhere and seeing if I could find a new champion for my future projects. Just we weren't aligning on kind of what projects I wanted to work on in the future. So I think that for me was like, you know, it's time to make that big leap and just hope that you find someone else who's willing to champion your work.

[08:51] Marissa: Yeah. Yeah. I have to imagine I am still with the same agent that I've been with my whole career. So I myself have not experienced this, but I have to imagine that it really is a test of listening to your own intuition, like knowing when you feel that, that kind of gut response, that something isn't aligning here, something's not quite right. But it really. It really would be a difficult, difficult decision to make.

[09:16] Ana: Yeah, definitely. But it definitely opened up new opportunities, and I can't be more thankful for how amazing Carrie is and how much of a champion and business savvy person she is. So I would have never found her if I didn't go back into the query changes. And luckily, I have a really great writing group who cheered me on and kept me sane through a lot of the process of querying again.

[09:39] Marissa: Yeah, no, it clearly has worked out, and I'm so happy. Would you please tell listeners, what is your debut novel, the vanishing station, about?

[09:51] Ana: All right. The vanishing station is about an underground magic system in San Francisco, and the lengths one girl is willing to go to protect the ones she loves. There are rivaling crime families and forbidden romance and travel around the world through secret magic on trains. There's a complicated filipino father daughter dynamic, and there's also a lot of wanderlust and art and poetry. So basically, all the things I love packed into one novel.

[10:24] Marissa: I can tell what you felt before that. Like, I started writing this book, and it was, like, fun again. Exactly. Okay, so every once in a blue moon, of course, for so many of us, being book lovers, being avid readers, it's rare to read a book that feels so different. Like, I've never read anything like this before. And this, for me, was one of those books. The idea is so unique, so interesting. The magic system, I mean, it's just not like anything I've read before. And of course, I get really giddy about that. So even though I try not to ask my guests, where did the idea come from? Because that's, like, such a joke that everybody always wants to know where the idea comes from, and we authors get tired of answering it. I want to know where this idea came from.

[11:17] Ana: It probably wasn't exactly one place, but a lot of different inspirations. I did grow up in San Francisco, so I know the place well, especially my teenage years were in San Francisco, and I rode the BART trains a lot. And of course, while sitting on BART trains, you're bored and thinking of, at least for me, thinking of imaginary things and what secrets might be hidden in mundane life. So that, for me, was a great setting. And for me, any book that I love, the setting really has to come alive. And then in my young adult years, I did a lot of traveling. So I went to over 30 countries before I even turned 30. And I loved a lot of the train travel through Europe and South America. Luckily, someone gave me Neil Gaiman's neverwear while I was traveling in London and doing the London tube, and I loved his kind of gritty underworld underneath the London tube station. So I think I might have had that kind of filtering in the back of my brain, but I loved the idea of travel and kind of secret bits of magic tucked into everyday, mundane life. So I think that's where it all kind of started from.

[12:34] Marissa: Yeah. Well, I also really love it for people who haven't read this book, which is pretty much everyone, because the book hasn't actually come out yet. Would you give just a brief overview of what the magic system is and kind of how it works and how it's being used in the book?

[12:52] Ana: Yeah. So anywhere that has train tracks or a train station, certain people can jump from one station to another. So if my main character is based in San Francisco and she can jump from San Francisco to Venice, Italy, or wherever, just by kind of harnessing this magic. And many of these train stations are ruled by crime families who want to keep the power and magic to themselves and to transport various valuable goods through these networks because they're kind of hidden from everyday, ordinary life.

[13:35] Marissa: Various very illegal goods.

[13:39] Ana: Yes. Can get very creative there.

[13:42] Marissa: Yeah. No, and I love that. I mean, one of the things that I loved about this book and loved about the way that you kind of introduced this idea of being able to jump between train stations to anywhere in the world is because you can see how it could be used for good or evil. Like, on one hand, it's so vicarious, the idea that you can just get on a train and suddenly you're in Italy, suddenly you're in Norway, suddenly you're in Australia. I mean, just the magic of that. And those of us who have wanderlust, like, oh, how incredible that would be. And yet, on the flip side, you've gone into this kind of dark underworld, this black market, where it's not all beautiful and happy and traveling to gorgeous destinations, crime families using this magic for really horrible stuff. I really loved that you got to see both of that.

[14:40] Ana: Yeah, me too. I think there's always that challenge of when certain pathways like that are open, like who are going to take advantage of it, and it can be just for fun, but I think there is a tendency for people who crave that power to move in and take control of it.

[14:59] Marissa: Yeah, unfortunately. I mean, it feels very real life like. Yeah, if this was a thing, this is probably how it would go.

[15:07] Ana: Yes. Well, of course, everyone wants to make money off of something, too. That could just be open and open these open magic pathways.

[15:15] Marissa: Yeah. So, of course, this is urban fantasy. There's magic. But you are also talking about a lot of very real world issues, you know, smuggling drugs, smuggling illegal weapons and stolen artwork. And there's a really powerful scene where our main character, Ruby, realizes that she's has tusks and rhinoceros horns from animal poachers. And what did you do as far as the research into these various things and figuring out how big a role in the story that was going to play?

[15:54] Ana: Oh, that's a good question. I did a little bit of research, but I think I more just thought about what people typically smuggle nowadays on the black market. I wanted Ruby to step into this little bit of starry eyed, of, like, wow, look at this amazing magic. But then also the flip side is, what is she forced to do as being part of this kind of crime family if she were to continue using this magic? And does she want to be a part of the animal poaching trade? Is that a price she's willing to pay to be part of this?

[16:34] Marissa: No. I mean, it's a great way to establish immediate tension and internal conflict within our protagonist because she's not a bad person. She has morals. She doesn't want to be doing this. But of course, the way you set.

[16:51] Ana: It up is that she's kind of forced to.

[16:53] Marissa: And so it makes for that wonderful internal conflict that we're always trying to achieve and doesn't always come easy. Sometimes that can be a real struggle to find.

[17:04] Ana: Definitely. I definitely wanted to push her to her limits through the story and see what would be okay for her, as well as the other characters in the story, too, who are involved with this crime family.

[17:19] Marissa: Yeah. All right. I want to come back to Ruby, but I'm not done talking quite yet about the trains and the magic, because it's such a cool. It really is such a cool concept. And the way that you describe it is really well done. Very visceral. But one of the biggest surprises for me is the idea that the trains respond to things like poetry or emotions, almost like the trains themselves have a heart and a soul and an imagination. At one point, Ruby kind of jokingly thinks of the train as, like a hopeless romantic. Where did that come from?

[17:58] Ana: Yeah, I'm not sure if I know exactly where that came from, but I've always been drawn to the arts of music and poetry and the way that they can make you feel more alive and the way they can help kind of tap into a certain moment or a memory and can really spark that in someone. And so I imagined, well, what if these trains that you're riding every day can hear you and can feel these little bits of poetry or song or art that is coming through their everyday train existence? And so it was really fun being able to weave in a little bit of poetry in there to almost use as spells because I thought of it in terms of magic and the way you usually have some sort of incantation or something to kind of focus your intention.

[18:53] Marissa: Yeah. Did you really kind of think about the magic system in advance or was a lot of it kind of uncovering the magic system as you were writing the story?

[19:04] Ana: I'm definitely uncover magic as it goes along. I definitely have an outline, maybe a beat sheet, but a lot of the world building I fleshed out as I went along. And also I worked with an amazing editor at Amulet Abrams Books. Maggie was just fantastic about asking really thoughtful questions throughout the revision process. And I feel like she really brought out some of those aspects in the novel.

[19:32] Marissa: I hate it when editors ask about the magic system. I know. Why are you asking me?

[19:39] Ana: Yeah, I remember I got, like, I think a copy editor question about, like, so how much is really the price for this and should it match this other price? And I'm like, don't make me do math, and, you know, decide on the exact cost, jumps each transaction and.

[19:55] Marissa: Right, right. No shows. If she jumps 4000 miles and she's this tired, how tired will she be after 12,000 miles?

[20:03] Ana: Exactly. Just trying to make everything make sense in the world you're building. It's tough, but it's a fun problem to solve.

[20:12] Marissa: It is. No, it is a fun problem to solve. But I also like, you don't know your own holes sometimes. So then when someone points it out, you're just like, oh, don't make me think any more about this. It's magic. Can't we just accept that? Exactly.

[20:27] Ana: It's like there's a reason I'm not writing completely contemporary, rustic fiction. I want magic, but it does have to make sense, and it's so important. And I think as readers, you do see the little flaws in thinking, or you don't want them to be pulled out of the world because something doesn't make sense, or you didn't think through something. So I am so grateful for editors who are helpful during revisions to really point out those holes.

[20:55] Marissa: No, I agree. And as much as I whine about it, I would much rather have an editor pointing it out than a reader.

[21:00] Ana: Exactly. Though there was a reader, an early reader, who pointed out something to do with how many floors were in a skyscraper in San Francisco. And, of course, he didn't point this out until after the book's already done with pages. So I'm like, never.

[21:17] Marissa: Just, I hope no one else noticed.

[21:19] Ana: But, of course, here I am talking about it. But it's funny, those little details, and now I'll remember that. But I thought it was cute.

[21:27] Marissa: Yeah, yeah. I mean, the assumption is most people won't think about it. I certainly didn't. But I know, I know. Those little things that then nag at.

[21:36] Ana: You, well, you can't fix after it's out in the world.

[21:41] Marissa: I know, I know. So, you mentioned that you have traveled a lot, and in this book, we get to see little glimpses of places from all over the world. Are these all places that you have traveled to?

[21:54] Ana: Not all of them. Some of them are places I've traveled to. Like, the train ride through Norway was one I very much loved, and I've been to Argentina, and that was really fun. But there are several places that I found when I was doing research. So, like, the train station, the abandoned one in Australia was when I found, well, doing research of cool abandoned train stations around the world. So some of them are a little bit of Internet research.

[22:24] Marissa: Do you have a Pinterest board full of pictures of cool abandoned stations?

[22:28] Ana: I do have a folder of fun potential stations around the world, but I do want to go travel to some of these places. The one I mentioned in Australia. If I ever make it to Australia, I feel like I have to go check out this station.

[22:43] Marissa: Yeah, no, there's something really cool about going someplace that you've written about and that, you know, you feel like, you know intimately because we research in such depth. But then to actually be there, it's like. Oh, it's like my imagination came to life.

[22:58] Ana: Exactly. Exactly. Well, and that's why I think most of the core of the book happens in San Francisco, which I know in and out since I grew up there, but it is fun to just sprinkle in all these other places and adventures I've gone on and to just have as settings.

[23:16] Marissa: Yeah. So for the locations, the settings that you have not been to that you don't have intimate knowledge about, what were some of the things that you did to research to make sure that you were having, that you were getting accurate details and that you could visualize them enough to be able to really make the settings come to life?

[23:38] Ana: Yeah. I mean, I think Google Maps is amazing. I like being able to go into kind of street view options to do a little bit of just get to get a feel of the place. And then I do a lot of research online to see, is there a history to this place? Has it always looked like this? What is around it? So I can go down a rabbit hole and end up finding little bits and pieces to try and help bring a place to life. But for the most part, I also just ground myself in that character and in, you know, the small details that she might notice in that scene. Like, again, this abandoned train station in Australia, it's a bit of an overgrown forest feel. So just trying to place myself into the very visceral small details to bring that place alive, I think are so important. Even beyond the big bird's eye view.

[24:39] Marissa: I think those are the details that really stand out the most, are the ones that seem to make it feel the most authentic, the most. I want to say touchable. Yeah. The most physical, almost. Yeah.

[24:55] Ana: I mean, it's so amazing to be able to read scenes that you could almost put yourself exactly in that scene and it comes alive.

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Marissa: All right, let's talk about our characters. I love the characters in this book. They're all great. They're all kind of have these larger than life personalities. It's not a huge cast, but every one of them really stands out. So let's take Ruby, our protagonist. She is kind of a hot mess, but I love her. She's very funny. She's very self deprecating, super stubborn, but one of those characters who is just, like, trying so hard to do the right thing, even though so much is stacked against her. So what was she a character that felt really fully formed at the outset, or what did you have to do to get into her mind?

[27:12] Ana: Yeah, her voice definitely came to me very consistently at the beginning. Just that stubbornness and really a little bit snarky, but also, at the same time, full of a lot of longing and dreaming up and a little bit of artist sensibilities, but also feeling a bit trapped in San Francisco in her situation. And so part of the big question I wanted to answer in the book for her was, how do you dream bigger when you're always struggling for enough? How do you get yourself to think beyond your circumstances and make that leap into something new if you don't feel like you have enough to do that?

[27:56] Marissa: Yeah, and those are tough questions to answer.

[27:58] Ana: Definitely.

[27:59] Marissa: Yeah.

[27:59] Ana: And I know, and I got to sprinkle my own kind of love of art and poetry in there. So the things that she's kind of drawn to in terms of the art and visuals are definitely drawing upon a little bit of my own love of those things.

[28:16] Marissa: Yeah, no, I really loved her voice. She's got a very clear perspective, and I just adored that she could be so snarky and hard edged 1 minute, and then the next, just like this little gooey teddy bear of a girl. She really is just trying so hard to keep up that outer shell. But you wrote it in a way that's very believable.

[28:39] Ana: Thank you. Yeah, I feel like if there ever was a movie, it'd be really fun for her to be played by Zoe Saldana. I just feel like, who would be so fun?

[28:50] Marissa: Yeah, no, that would be. I can see it, for sure. And then you mentioned earlier that Ruby has this really complicated dynamic with her father. Her father, Balboa, another just great character. Super lovable, funny, charming, but so flawed. I mean, he's really battling with a lot of stuff. What were you thinking about when you were creating his character but then also figuring out what the relationship would be between him and Ruby?

[29:21] Ana: Yes, Bobo is definitely a complicated character. He loves Ruby so much, but he does have a huge share of flaws. He's struggling with a lot of chronic pain and alcoholism that he's, you know, that has actually gotten them into this mess in the first place. And so you have this dynamic where he loves her so fiercely, but he can also be the one to cause her pain because of his bad decisions. And so I think trying to strike that dynamic was always a tricky thing through the novel. He's also kind of a fun loving person. He loves karaoke. He loves a lot of the things that my filipino uncles love. I got to draw the more fun parts of his personality from family. But I think a lot of this was also drawn on by at least the struggle with alcoholism and chronic pain was drawn from some family members that I myself have struggled with as a teenager. And just. Yeah, for a young person to figure out how to not let that burden stop them, but also to continue loving this person, who is also very flawed.

[30:39] Marissa: And as you were talking, because I also want to talk about Montgomery, who is our love interest. And just now I was thinking about it, and you and all of your characters, like, you're really walking this line between being good people, having good intentions, wanting to do what's right, and yet they're all. They all have really noticeable flaws. And whether those are challenges from the outside kind of being imposed on them or more inside their own decisions that they're making, you're really kind of playing a lot with that dynamic of good and bad. Is that something that you think of really consciously when you're creating your characters?

[31:24] Ana: No, I probably didn't.

[31:26] Marissa: That just happens naturally, consciously.

[31:29] Ana: But I think by placing them in these scenarios where they have to deal with these obstacles and make choices, I think that's where novels can get really interesting because there are a lot of kind of gray situations where you have to make a choice. And I always love seeing how characters are going to make that choice. So it is fun for me to write. And as you mentioned, with Montgomery, he also, since he's the heir to this crime family, he has certain expectations of how he should be and expectations that his mother is kind of forcing onto him for being the next crime boss of San Francisco. But, you know, he has. He's his own person, and he has to make his own choice eventually. So I really love playing with those struggles.

[32:22] Marissa: Yeah. So I adore Montgomery, and he is a study of opposites. He's stoic and, you know, a crime boss, essentially, when he needs to be, and yet you flip the coin. And he's a musician, he's a poet, he's a romantic. So he's really such an interesting character, how he kind of fills that bad boy stereotype and the cinnamon roll stereotype at the same time.

[32:55] Ana: You know, like I said, I just threw in all the things I love. Yes. He was so fun to write in. Our everyday lives can sometimes be different in the kind of secret moments or the quiet moments in our life. And I think who we are to more of the outside world or if you're in a job or a role that you're playing can be quite different from who you are when it's with people you really trust and open up to. So it was really fun to play with the way that Ruby and Montgomery slowly open up to each other through the course of the book.

[33:31] Marissa: Yeah. Do you do character work? Like, do you create profiles or try writing a scene from Montgomery's perspective? Do you do anything along those lines to kind of figure out what's really making these characters tick?

[33:47] Ana: Yeah, I think for my main character, at least with Ruby, I can't really get rolling until I start getting the voice down and understand how she sees moment to moment. For Montgomery, I did have to play with that balance. How much of a know, prime boss do I want him to be? Or, you know, how far should I delve into that side of him? Or how much do I want him to be the musician kind of longing for something more type personality. And so I think I definitely did dabble a little bit on some writing out, some scenes to see, like, in what direction does this push this character? But I don't really write character one pagers because I feel like I would always deviate from it as I'm drafting. So if I write something that I think is set in stone, I don't realize till later as I'm writing that things actually do change a lot.

[34:45] Marissa: Yeah, they always change. I always start off with one idea and then halfway through the draft and like, nope, we're somewhere entirely different now. No matter how hard I try.

[34:55] Ana: I know that's the hard part. I think, oh, I'll make this little character sheet at the beginning and I'll stick to it. I never, ever stick to it.

[35:02] Marissa: No, I always. I find something kind of invigorating about that, though, because even though I can feel like I know my characters at the beginning when it's not until they kind of start to go off and forge their own path and create their own personalities that then I start to feel like, okay, now we're getting somewhere. Now it's not just me dictating, it's the characters telling me who they want to be.

[35:27] Ana: Yes. And I don't ever know how to explain that process to people who are not writers.

[35:31] Marissa: I know it's the weirdest thing, probably.

[35:33] Ana: Insane to other people, but that is absolutely how that goes.

[35:37] Marissa: Yep, completely. You did earlier briefly mention making a beat sheet, but that you also tend to be more of a pantser writer. What is kind of your process as far as, like, plotting and figuring out the main moments of your story?

[36:00] Ana: Yeah, I love that book. Save the cat writes a novel. The beat sheet from there really helped me understand plotting because I think that's my weakest point. I'm really good at character development and setting and writing the scene level, but I think sometimes the overall structure is little intimidating to me. So I appreciate just having this kind of easy to follow outline, and I may not stick with it exactly, but I think just knowing kind of what I'm vaguely aiming for makes it so that I don't go on tangents that I just end up deleting later. So a beat sheet definitely helps. Just get the main, like, midpoint inciting incident. Here's the climax of the story, and just knowing those points, even if I haven't fleshed out all the details, are really helpful for me to kind of see the path that I'm taking, but leave it open enough for my pantser self to kind of wind my way through. And I think for me, the fun part about writing is the discovery, like, oh, what are these characters going to do next?

[37:08] Marissa: Or, oh, how are they going to.

[37:10] Ana: React to this situation? And it doesn't always go the way I thought it would, but I can still kind of get to my big, you know, overarching plot points when I have a beat sheet in front of me.

[37:22] Marissa: I feel obliged to point out that Jessica Brody, author of Save the Cat writes a novel, is one of our sponsors here on the happy writer podcast, and I definitely did not pay Anna to say that right there.

[37:34] Ana: Oh my gosh, I love that book. I would not have written a coherent novel without having a beep sheet outlined for me just because plotting is something I always struggle with.

[37:46] Marissa: So I know I love the save the cat, and I used to use the original back when it was a screenwriting guide. And now that Jessica updated it for novels, it's so brilliant. I absolutely read through it every single time I'm starting a new project. And I'm not just saying that because she's our sponsor. Like, I really do think it is one of the best resources for novel writing.

[38:07] Ana: Yes. And she just came out with a young adult version.

[38:10] Marissa: Right. I've read it, and it's fantastic.

[38:14] Ana: I have it on my shelf. I haven't gotten to it yet, but I think the next time I am struggling with plot, I'm ready.

[38:21] Marissa: I have it ready. One of my favorite things about the new one. Oh, Jessica's going to love that we're talking about this. My favorite things about the Save the cat writes a young adult novel is that she added this chapter all about writing the elevator pitch and your pitch summary, which turned into a query letter or back cover copy. And it's so smart the way that she breaks it down into this really recognizable formula. And so now whenever I have to pitch a new book to my agent or my editor, that's my first thing that I do. It's like, okay, Jessica, remind me how to do this again.

[38:58] Ana: Oh, brilliant. I'll have to go check that out because that is also something I'm terrible at, is pitching the book. It isn't until the agent or editor start coming back to me with, like, how they've pitched it. I'm like, oh, yes, that is exactly what that's about.

[39:11] Marissa: Right? I know. But anyway, back to you and your process. I love, one of the things that I love talking to other writers about is how varied this outlining, not outlining process can be, because we really do have guests on this show that run the gamut from no outline, no thinking ahead at all, to the way Sirius outlined every beat, every moment, every scene. And it sounds like you're falling somewhere in the middle of that spectrum. And I think it's so great for aspiring writers to hear all of these various methods that yet somehow still come together to create a finished novel.

[39:59] Ana: Yes, definitely. And you can kind of shift as you go along, too. Like some of my novels, if I've had the beat sheet and I'm kind of just writing linearly and moving through the novel, but sometimes I also do a little bit of fast drafting where I start filling in some of the pieces with some of the details so they're not like full scenes yet, but there may be details that I want to include in this part later. So it starts turning into almost a detailed outline while drafting. So that's helpful, too, sometimes.

[40:34] Marissa: Yeah. And I find that different parts of a book can require different things. Like, sometimes just one sentence for me covers everything that I have in mind for a particular chapter. And then sometimes chapters or moments in the book are really complicated. And then I feel like my outline needs to dig a little bit deeper or, you know, maybe like, I know that there needs to be a big reveal yet, but I haven't figured out what that is. So I'll, like, leave a little placeholder. Like, it just, it varies. And I think it's good for us to remember that you can be flexible. You don't have to just follow the same rigid process. Every book or every chapter. It varies.

[41:16] Ana: Yes, absolutely. And for me, I think one of the most important pieces I need while I'm drafting is I need to get the beginning chapters right. So I need to be, there are ones that I keep going back to as a touch point as I'm writing. Like, you know, I get distracted. I have a day job. I can't write for a while, but I need to be able to go back to those opening chapters and really know the voice and what I'm setting up. And so sometimes I will scrap a few opening chapters that aren't quite feeling right, until it does feel right, and then I can really continue the draft fully because I know ive got this touch point that I can keep returning to throughout my process.

[42:02] Marissa: Yeah, no, thats so interesting to me. Im very much write the first chapters as quickly as I can and then try not to think about them, knowing that once ive written the full book, ill go back to those first chapters and probably everything will change. But thats okay, because by then ill know what the book needs to be.

[42:20] Ana: Yeah, and absolutely. Sometimes those first chapters may totally change in revisions, but I think it needs to give me the right tone and feel of what I'm going. The book.

[42:30] Marissa: No, I can get that. There's a lot weighing on the opening chapters. Introducing the protagonist, introducing the world, giving that just general vibe, letting your reader know kind of what to expect from this book. There's a lot riding on them. We should do a whole episode all on opening chapters. Joanne, write that down. Julia.

[42:52] Ana: Yes. So much goes into those. Oh, and then, you know, especially for the people who are querying, you know, sometimes all an agent reads is, are the first ten pages, right?

[43:02] Marissa: Yeah.

[43:03] Ana: You do need to, they need to be strong.

[43:05] Marissa: Yep, yep. No pressure or anything. Get it written. Worry about it later. All right, Anna, are you ready for our bonus round?

[43:15] Ana: Yes.

[43:16] Marissa: What book makes you happy?

[43:19] Ana: Oh, okay. So recently, I just finished reading. I guess I'll put two books for this. But I finished reading Emily Henry's happy place. That was so fun. I love the banter and their romantic tension and the group of friends. So that was a really fun read. If you're looking for something for a summer beach read. But the other one is a ya novel by Brianna Bourne. It's called the half life of love. I'm a little biased because she's one of my critique partners, but it is similar to Emily Henry in the way that she does romantic tension and it's just so good throughout and just the stakes of what could be lost. That book's about, you know, what if you knew exactly when you were going to die years beforehand, and what if you fell in love during that time? So it's a great book. I definitely recommend it.

[44:18] Marissa: What are you working on next?

[44:21] Ana: So my contract with Abrams is a two book deal, so I'm probably not allowed to talk about what's next yet. But I am working on some potential writing projects, maybe a possible sequel to the vanishing station. And then I have this other project I'm playing with that's another YA novel that's got a bit of time travel in it. I'm kind of pitching it as back to the future meets Jeff Sentner's into the wildlight. So we'll see if it turns out or not. Yeah. Okay.

[44:52] Marissa: I had wondered if there was a sequel for the vanishing station coming because it's one of those books that neatly wraps up almost everything, but there's definitely room to keep exploring, I feel.

[45:06] Ana: Yes, very much room. I'm hoping there will be one. I don't know yet, but I would love to write one if I get the opportunity to.

[45:13] Marissa: Awesome. Lastly, where can people find you?

[45:17] Ana: I'm usually on Instagram alexenreiter, e l l I c k s o n writer. And I'm hoping during the interview release of this that week, I would love to do a little book giveaway of the vanishing station. And Marissa says with a little luck, because that is such a fun book too. So keep an eye out for that. It'll be on my instagram.

[45:43] Marissa: I love that. And we will try to share that on our instagram as well. And then everybody can win. So many fun books.

[45:49] Ana: Yay.

[45:52] Marissa: Anna, thank you so much for joining me today.

[45:54] Ana: Thank you. I really appreciate you taking the time and it's been so fun hearing all your thoughtful questions.

[46:01] Marissa: Readers, definitely check out The Vanishing Station. It comes out next week, but you can pre order it today. Of course, we encourage you to support your local indie bookstore, but if you don't have a local indie, you can check out our affiliate store@bookshop.org, shop. Marissa Meyer next week we are going to be digging even further into writing life and happiness, with a special episode focused entirely on balance. How does one balance writing with promotion and work and family and wellness and all the things? Uh, some days? Honestly, I have no idea. But we will surely try to answer some of those questions. Please don't forget to leave us a rating or review on your favorite podcast app and check out our merchandise on Etsy, Instagram and teepublic. Please subscribe and follow us on Instagram. Happy Writer podcast until next time, stay inspired, keep writing, and whatever life throws you today, I hope that now you're feeling a little bit happier.