Marissa chats with Danielle Younge-Ullman about her newest YA contemporary - HE MUST LIKE YOU - as well as tackling Big Issues in our books with humor and levity, writing YA and kidlit with one's own children and teenagers in mind, and the role authors can play when it comes to enacting social change.
Books discussed in this episode can be purchased from your local independent bookstore or buy them online from the Happy Writer bookshop.org store (that benefits indie bookstores) at https://bookshop.org/shop/marissameyer
Find out more and follow The Happy Writer on social media: https://www.marissameyer.com/podcast/
Marissa chats with Danielle Younge-Ullman about her newest YA contemporary - HE MUST LIKE YOU - as well as tackling Big Issues in our books with humor and levity, writing YA and kidlit with one's own children and teenagers in mind, and the role authors can play when it comes to enacting social change.
Books discussed in this episode can be purchased from your local independent bookstore or buy them online from the Happy Writer bookshop.org store (that benefits indie bookstores) at https://bookshop.org/shop/marissameyer
Find out more and follow The Happy Writer on social media: https://www.marissameyer.com/podcast/
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Speaker 2:Hello and welcome to the happy writer. This is a podcast that aims to bring readers of books to enjoy and to help authors find more joy in their writing. I am your host, Marissa Meyer. Thanks so much for joining me today. One thing that has been making me happy this week is the good old fashioned picnic. Uh, my family has kind of fallen into this pattern where we'll go and we want to keep supporting our faith, take out. And then instead of sitting in a restaurant, we've been going to a park or the beach, or even eating in our own backyard and letting the kids roam around while we enjoy our meal. Uh, so it's been really enjoyable and I'm hoping that it's a tradition that will continue to last even after the world goes back to normal. I am also so happy today to be talking to today's guest. She is the award winning author of the young adult novels. Everything beautiful is not ruined and a Lola Carlisle's 12 step romance. Well as the adult novel falling under her newest young adult contemporary, he must like you comes out on July 14th, please. Welcome Danielle Young. Hi, thank you very much for having me. I'm thrilled to be here. I am so happy to have you. How are you? How's life in your bunker? Life is pretty good in my bunker. Very rainy right now. Um, I have two girls, 10 and 14 who have a soldier through this admirably and, um, my husband as well. We've all, luckily we both are used to working at home. Um, not all together at the same time, but he and I are both used to working from home. So it wasn't too tough, uh, compared to maybe what some people had to deal with. Um, but overall, uh, everything considered, we feel lucky and we're getting through it like everyone else. That's right. We are getting through it. Um, and are you in Canada? Did I see that? Yes. I live in Toronto, Toronto. Okay. And do you feel like things are opening up there again, like what's the status in Toronto in Toronto? We are entering a stage two, I think like maybe just this week. I think it was just announced. And we, so the rest of the province went into stage two, which meant, um, restaurant patios, massage, haircuts, those kinds of things opened back up. Um, I believe some outdoor sports like baseball parks, those kinds of things. So, uh, Toronto was held back, uh, until this week and now we are opening up. So in Ontario, there's, I think just one area that is still being held in stage one and it's not Toronto, so that's promising, but of course, you know, you sit there and you do sometimes see the pictures of too many people at the beach, too many people gathered this or that place. So, uh, you know, I'm still staying home the most part, happy to be able to go get some takeout though, and to feel a little less panicked. Um, and we're just wearing our masks when we have to go out and still kind of trying to stay home. Yeah, yeah, no same. Um, I think I'm very much in the same boat. Uh, restaurants have started opening up here with limited capacity now. Um, but we have yet to go to one and the idea that still makes me, um, not super comfortable. Uh, so, but at the same time, I know so many business owners who are just dying to get into business and reopen up. Um, so I'm really happy that, you know, maybe, maybe they can start generating some business and start moving forward. Um, I have, I have a lot of sympathy for all of our small business owners in the community. Yeah. And you do hear so many stories of places closing down, even I was driving along, uh, the Danforth, which is a street in Toronto is well known and a couple of weeks ago saw so quite a few empty storefronts. And I thought, Oh, this is awful. So if everyone can be smart and use common sense and wear masks and wash their hands and all of those things, hopefully we can do these things carefully and safely enough to help these businesses and have some degree of normalcy. Yeah, exactly. I hope I'm optimistic. Um, that we're, we're gonna come out of this together and hopefully all a little bit wiser, hopefully. Um, so I finished reading your new book. He must like you, uh, I finished reading it yesterday morning and I wished that I had your phone number and I could just call you up immediately because I had so many feelings and so many thoughts and things that like, I need to discuss this. I need someone to like guide me through all of the things that I'm experiencing over this book. Um, and so trying to weave together, all of the things that I've, I've felt, all the thoughts that I've had into like some coherent interview questions has been a challenge. I'm trying to prepare for this. There is so much that I want to dig into with you. Um, well, I'm sorry, I'm not sorry at the same time. Um, so why don't we start with you telling listeners, uh, what is he must like you about? Okay. So, uh, he must like you is about a teenage waitress. Her name is Libby. Her family life is kind of in the process of imploding and her parents have unfortunately had to drain a lot of her college fund in order to stay afloat financially. She is at the end of her senior year has applied for colleges, uh, and she finds this all out and also finds out that they are going to kick her out at the end of the school year. So they can Airbnb her room for extra money. So she is working as a waitress to save money, trying desperately to save enough money, to still be able to go to college and find somewhere to live. And she's also desperate to get out of the small town and away from her parents, et cetera, where she's obviously experiencing a lot of frustration and where her dad has kind of poisoned the waters for her socially in may. And work-wise. So she does get a job waitressing after a bit of difficulty and immediately discovers as just about anyone who's ever worked as a server discovers that the service industry is rampant with sexual harassment and all kinds of harassment. It's generally unchecked. It's kind of even like a baked in, uh, factor to the customer service dynamic because the customer's always right. So she's mostly handling it. Most of it isn't too serious, but there is one repeat customer Perry Ackerman. And he finally pushes her too far one night and she dumps a pitcher of sangria on him. And unfortunately he's the town hero and very powerful. And this causes her to be immediately fired. In addition, someone gets a video of the incident, not the part where he's harassing her, but just the part of her dumping, the sangria and yelling at him. It goes viral and her whole town is thrown into an uproar. Mostly not in her favor, at least at first. So soon after she finds out that no one else is going to hire her because of this. Uh, she is given an option that if she makes a public apology to Perry, she can have her job back and go back to being harassed by him on a regular basis. It's presumably in the meantime, though, this is kind of an equally important part of the story. Uh, she has been realizing that some of her sexual experiences have not been consensual or they have been in a kind of messy gray area in terms of consent. And so she's really mixed up about both of these situations and even more so because each of these situations are with people who are otherwise sort of nice, nice guys in her life. One is a coworker who actually stands up for her around the Paris situation. Another is an ex boyfriend. Who's now dating her best friend and has been part of her social circle forever. So she's really messed up and trying to figure out how to deal with that. At the same time, she's dealing with her family that is spiraling downward and trying to figure out what to do about this apology, whether to do it. And eventually you see her figure out how to stick up for herself and for others. And ultimately I hope it's a very empowering story, but it is certainly also, um, a difficult one.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I wanted to mention that too, because there are a lot of big themes in this book. Um, you know, we're, we're dealing with assault and harassment and rape and bullying and racism and mental health. Like there's so much in this book. Um, but it doesn't read, it's not a dark book. Um, it's not a heavy book really, by the end of it, it's quite empowering. And it's almost like you've written like a really fun summery teen drama, but then like thrown in all of these important topics that need to be discussed. Um, and I can see this becoming a really important book for a lot of young readers.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I found that, um, in terms of the big themes, I do tend to do that. I just feel like life, um, often comes at you all at once. That's my experience that everything goes to the dogs at once. And so often you're dealing with so many things at the same time. I just find that very real life. And so I know that as I was writing the book, I was like, Oh, eat any one of these plot lines could just be its own book. Why did I do this to myself? But I really did feel like there was a lot of connection and it's just kind of what happened, uh, in terms of building the story and putting her in the kind of circumstance where she really needs this job. Because if you, if her circumstances aren't dire enough, um, then she can just walk away from it. And yet there are lots of people in jobs that they have to keep because, uh, they're, they're sort of between a rock and a hard place. And I really wanted to make that kind of situation real. The rest of the family stuff kind of grew from that and grew from a place of, you know, what kind of family do you come from when you're having trouble with, you know, finding your voice. So, yeah, I kind of threw it all in and then we did a lot of revising and you talking about how the, the tone is, is sort of light. And we had a tough time. We were trying to come up with a description because, you know, we do want to point out that it's light and funny, but it's not a light in front of subject. It's not being treated lightly either, but she has a sense of humor. And again, this is the thing for me that I always find. I think a lot of my I'm the one in a dark situation to come up with the gallows humor that cracks everybody up, hopefully. Um, and I, I think my own sense of humor was kind of forged that way, that when I've had tough times, I, I find a way to wise Cracker. I find a way to, uh, find something funny and it kind of gets me through like humor can really get people through a lot of stuff. So I really wanted to use that as a way to help tell the story. And I don't think it's unrealistic and it's also not unrealistic that people wouldn't be going through something really hard, but also be having a wonderful time falling in love and, um, having a good experience with their friends and laughing about things. So that's kind of how I tried to pull it all together.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, it, it felt very realistic. I mean, those two things are not mutually exclusive. Um, and, and in fiction I feel like so often the, when we do have really serious storylines, um, but if you can balance those with some levity and some humor, maybe some romance, it really, to me as a reader kind of brings, uh, even the more serious stuff into the light and kind of helps you process that. And in a way that's more effective.
Speaker 2:Yes. And it shows, and I think this is important as to, to give a sense that there is there's hope for all of these things. The world is changing. Uh, we are trying to help make it change respects and, um, your life though, doesn't stop while you're doing that work. Um, and your life doesn't stop when you're going through some trauma. I think, um, at some point, one of the characters says to Libby, this is, you know, all of this drama, all the stuff that's happening, it isn't, it's normal. So she's saying, you know, we, we can't get involved. This is my life is crazy. And he's like, well, my experience is that this is life. So I'll take, you know, I'll deal with it, I'm spoiling things, but you know what I'm talking about, uh, since you've just read the book, but I, I think that that's what I wanted to kind of show and I wanted to make sure that it was, that was hopeful and hopefully realistic too.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And one of the things that I found exceptionally well done and also really helped with, um, this vibe of, of realism to the book is your character. You have, of course, Libby, who's fabulous. Um, and like she has that kind of dark snarky sense of humor. I loved her. I wanted to be friends with her. Um, and then you also have like these male counterparts around her, you know, you mentioned, uh, this coworker and an ex boyfriend figure in her neighborhood, her town who has a lot of Burr, um, there's her dad, her brother, and none, no one is really, would you say a great character or a great person. Um, and yet you've given each of them very believable, believable, and realistic reactions to things, and you've done a great job of not villainizing anybody and really showing very complicated situations from different perspective and points of view. Um, and, and I just thought it was so well done and kind of remarkable to be able to read about these characters and show them yes, they did this thing that was, you know, horrible in because of X, Y, Z, but that they're not a horrible person or they can't change or grow. And I guess my question is like, how did it feel writing these characters and getting into their heads, they would stand on these different topics? Well, I think this was something that I really,
Speaker 2:Really wanted to tackle specifically, especially around the issues of consent. There's Perry at the restaurant. And he's, I guess probably the most directly bad guy of the book
Speaker 3:Despicable. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Him a lot of excuses for his behavior. Um, but as far as, you know, Boris and Kyle, who I think you're talking about both of them, I, this was what I wanted to do around the issues of consent in the book. I really wanted to show that, uh, people don't necessarily always know, like there are some, there are some really beautiful, important books written about, uh, sexual harassment, sexual assault, rape those kinds of things in which the person is, you know, more of them that I've read the person is, is a predator and is really the bad guy and is doing everything on purpose. I really wanted to show that also, especially during this time, when you're figuring things out, as a, as a teenager, people, people screw up, um, they make mistakes, drinking gets involved sometimes, or they just not been given the right kind of messaging. We're seeing this in the news all the time. Like today, yesterday with famous people, who've been accused of sexual assault where they potentially didn't think they did anything wrong. I really wanted to look at those gray areas. And I, and I wanted to kind of say, we're not stuck with this situation we can learn. And both of these people can hopefully be better in the future and she can, um, you know, hopefully find a way to speak up and, and, and help them be better. Not that she owes that to them, but I think it's important in the world sometimes not to just shut somebody down and dismiss them because they made a mistake. People make mistakes and can learn from them. Some can't, some are totally evil and did the bad thing on purpose, but I think these guys are not bad and are really not even aware that they have done anything wrong, certainly not consciously. And so I re that's, that was the territory that I chose to dive into, and I wanted to do it with as much nuance as possible. And I also wanted it to be the case that if hopefully some males or male identifying anybody who would read it would actually women too, because I think all of us are capable of pushing somebody's password. They're comfortable without really knowing. Um, so I, by no means, yes, it is more often heterosexual males that you hear about, but it can happen. And so these kinds of this kind of communication around sex and consent should be happening. And I, and I want to foster that and I want to make it less scary.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, and I thought it was one thing that I recognize as I was reading the book, which I found fascinating, kind of like on a personal dive, into my own psychology is that there's a number of scenes in the book that are uncomfortable. And on one hand you have these depictions of, um, you know, actual aren't necessarily consensual. Um, and I want to point out too, that this is not a graphic book. Um, there's, we're not talking violence, which a lot of times or rape that's where your mind goes. Um, it's, it's handled, um, quite carefully, I would say, um, nevertheless happening. And then you also have these scenes in which now it's the fallout. And Libby is trying to have these discussions, men who, um, assaulted her or made these mistakes and trying to explain why, what they did wasn't okay. And what I thought was fascinating for me as a reader is it, for me, those scenes, in which they are talking about, it felt so much more uncomfortable scenes in which it happened. And it kind of made me start thinking about like, what does that say about our culture and why we were willing to stay silent? I just want to say nothing and hope it'll go away. I don't want to talk about it. I don't want to address it because it stirs up so many uncomfortable emotions. And I thought that was so interesting. Um, has a reader, how did you feel in, in writing that, like, were you feeling those same sorts of things when you were writing these scenes?
Speaker 2:Yes. For sure. And I definitely, you know, grew up feeling, not that comfortable about talking about this kind of stuff. I'm from a different generation obviously than today's teenagers, but, you know, I was sort of brought up on no means no, but there wasn't really much in between. And there was also a lot of sort of implicit and explicit. Like if you take it too far, you just have to suffer the consequences. Um, and so I did feel really, uh, that the scenes were uncomfortable and I used to be an actress. So I, I, when I'm writing I'm and I think most writers probably do this, whether they've ever accurate or not, but I'm really trying to be in character for each character. So they were, you know, like I'm breathing every breath with them and I'm, and I just kind of, I feel my way forward with these things. And so, yeah, it was uncomfortable. I wanted it to be uncomfortable because that's how uncomfortable I definitely would have been. And I know that it's so hard to bring these conversations written into, have these conversations before, after, during, and I want people to really start to feel that they can have them. And I want parents to have the conversations with the kids about it. And I want teenagers to have the conversations with one another and, you know, everybody should be coming into these with, with more clarity and communication, and then, you know, it'll turn out better for everyone. So I, they were uncomfortable to write. They were hard to write, uh, especially, I think I found the Boris one really hard to write, uh, because it's a really gray area, complicated, weird situation that has made her feel so awful. Uh, and I did not want to write that scene, but once I did, I felt quite good about it. Um, but even trying to get through it and figure out like, what's the resolution on these scenes? How do you get through them to the other side? Uh, so, you know, I just did it and then you, you know, you tweak it until it feels exactly as right as it can. Nothing ever feels perfect. I think you probably know, but that's, that's how I did it.
Speaker 3:Well, it, it was inspiring to me reading these because there's so much bravery from these characters and kind of becomes more courageous as the book goes on. And as she's kind of finding her voice, um, but the male characters too showed a lot of bravery and then being willing to hear what she has to say and to change their own minds about things. Um, can I agree, there's a lot of hope in this book. Um, and I think that's part of the reason why is cause you are, uh, watching these kids,
Speaker 2:The characters go through these
Speaker 3:So awkward moments. Um, but coming out stronger on the other side, which, which was really nice to see. Yeah. And I think that's something for me,
Speaker 2:You know, I never felt like I was particularly brave with confronting things. And so, you know, that's also my own journey that I've tried to become stronger and more willing to speak up. And, um, so I, you know, I want to show a roadmap for that, for the characters, um, to be able to do that and for the readers.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, I'm the same way, super anti confrontation, which maybe is why they seem so uncomfortable. Um, but also why I admired the character so much by the end of it. Um, one of my favorite moments in the book is this lovely short moment, uh, with a child, a little girl who's being, my parents are trying to make, make her feel better and they go back to this, you know what every girl has heard at some point in her life, Oh, he's just doing,
Speaker 2:Because he likes you. He must have a crush on you.
Speaker 3:I know. And I have heard that and I I'm, you know, every, I'm sure every woman listening to this podcast be like, Oh, yep. I remember that, you know, getting teased because he likes you. Um, which of course is it became the title of the book. He must like you and I loved Libby's reaction and this just it's, it's a really great powerful moment. Um, and it shines a light on like these justifications that we make,
Speaker 2:Um, for other people's bad behavior. Uh, yeah, I really feel like I, I love that scene too. And I'd kind of, I didn't know where I was going to come to that point, uh, to make that point in the book, but, you know, I have, I have kids and I, you know, I've, I've heard that said, and then I've also heard myself ready to say it to one of my kids to make them feel better. So, you know, I'm not holding myself out as any kind of perfect model, but, you know, then it's just stopped short and thought, Oh my gosh, there it is. And I really also thought not only does that, you know, sort of excuse bad behavior and have people and have it be rewarded from a really young age, but it also really does something to you when you grow up thinking that people behave this way because they like you, like, there's something really warping at that. And you know, of course it is true that sometimes people tease each other as a proxy to flirting because they don't know what else to do. Like that is true too. But I think it's, this is so much used for behavior that is not that, and that is in fact bullying. And, you know, even somebody might not like the teasing behavior, like people don't necessarily, like, it's not always a great method. Everyone should have the option to kind of say, you know what? I don't like that. Yeah. Even if you don't mean it wrongly. Um, and so, yeah, I really wanted to kind of show not just the outer perception of how that goes back, but also how she realizes what that's done to her and how that kind of put, like, have heard that message from a young age, how that kind of set her up to accept and expect some really terrible behavior that then further mess her up and that she's got to now kind of, uh, sort through and heal from. Yeah. And it's a reminder too, that there are these kind of things that we tell ourselves and then it's okay to challenge those things. Like, just because you grew up hearing that or, or other parents are saying that, but also continue that myth. Like we can pause and think, what is this actually saying? And what should I be saying instead? Um, but it did kind of give me that moment of, of stopping to think, like, what would I tell my girls in this situation? Um, which is it could be coming. So did you say you're good? I think you said they're 10 and 14. Uh, was there any part of you that felt like you were kind of writing this book for them? Uh, all parts of me almost. Yeah. I really, it's funny because writing for teens, um, and I've written for adults too, I sometimes get asked like, is it different? Do you write differently for teens versus adults? And up until this book, I actually would kind of say no. Um, in the sense that I certainly don't hold back in terms of complication or nuance or vocabulary or anything like that. And you know, my last book, I just, it was a story that I felt needed to be told. And I, you know, I said it from the point of view of a teen. So of course it ends up being relevant to teens, but it wasn't specifically like the story was the story. Whereas this one, I knew I was writing for teens because, and by extension, or even not by extension for my daughters and by extension for teens, for the world that I want to make for them, um, which I want to be better. And for them to not have to go through some of the stuff that, uh, people before them have gone through. And so really it is directly in hopes for them and my 14 year olds, um, read the arc and, and immediately internalized and really got the message, which was fantastic. The ten-year-old is still too young for it, but, um, yes, I definitely wrote it for them and for what I want for them, how things I want, how I want things to be different for them, how I want them to be brave and how I want other people to be toward them. Hopefully. So, yeah, I mean, this is the most direct I've ever felt about somebody. This is the most with a book that I've ever felt like that I was really sort of, if you think in archery terms like stretching my arm back and taking aim very specifically at this issue and that the things that I wanted to say and the changes I would like to see happen and help happen in conversation and in the world. Yeah. I'm curious because I, for the most part have written science fiction and fantasy, um, and a lot of the bigger themes that I'm able to address, um, in those genres, you know, things of oppression and prejudism, but there's like this, this veil between the reader and the story, because you can kind of put it behind science fiction fantasy, and there's this distancing. Um, I can craft those themes and kind of be a little bit sneakier with them. Um, whereas this book, there's nothing sneaky about it. Like, it's, this is a real world situation. This is a real world problem, and you're really facing it and taking it head on what sort of, I mean, I have to imagine that you felt a lot of pressure going into that and trying to be authentic, um, and handle the characters with a lot of respect, but also knowing that like you have these messages that you want to come across in the narrative. Yeah. It was tricky. Um, I sort of, as a writer, that's a bit, what makes me tick that I like to go, this is going to be hard, go, you know what I mean? Like, let me, yeah, you do know. Um, and I, by the way, I do think in science fiction and fantasy, um, I have so much admiration for what you're able to do. And I think that science fiction and fantasy can actually take that, take a socialist, you especially and do a fantastic job because you can remove it from the real world of going here. Look, it, this is why this is wrong. Um, so there's different, you know, you can do different things with that, which I think is amazing. But yeah, I was worried about this. I of course worry. I never want to be, uh, triggering, but I think this will trigger people. I don't, you know, I don't want to trigger anybody in the wrong way. I think, you know, the whole time I was thinking, well, you know, there's going to be people potentially mad at me from different directions, uh, on this issue, people with more old fashioned ideas who might think that this quote unquote goes too far or something. Uh, and then on the other hand, there might be people who think that my character or the story, you know, doesn't go far enough. Um, and isn't maybe aggressive enough. And I just had to follow what I felt was true for the characters. I did research. Um, I know someone who, uh, works at the red cross and has helped write and create a material for, to, to train trainers and teachers around, uh, healthy sexual relationships for teens. And so I was able to consult her at various points to kind of say, you know, what is this consistent with? What is being talked about and what messaging is, is these days. So I did a lot of work there and then it was just a lot of revision. And then you, at a certain point, you just have to be as the writer yourself, you have to be brave and just go, okay, I'm taking the leap and this is what I'm putting out there. Right. Right. No, and I, I mean, I think every writer recognizes that you can't please everyone. And exactly like you're saying, there's going to be readers who thought it went too far and readers who felt like it didn't go far enough and you largely just have to do what you think is best for this book and this story with the book coming out so soon, do you have a method for handling reviews and criticism? I have worried about it and I have, uh, had some conversations with people about it. Um, and I think I am, I guess I just have to be ready. I mean, it's just starting now where I'm starting to have interview questions, emailed to me and things like that. And you know, if reviews are, uh, if somebody comes down or do you, I guess I just, fortunately this is my fourth book. I hope I'll be able to handle it. Uh, I certainly stand by what I've said. And I also think that, um, you know, if this book really gets somebody hot under the collar, well, I'm, you know, I think it's partly for discussion. I want people to, I want people to discuss this. I want if people read this and are like, Whoa, I don't even know what to think. I disagree to go and talk to their, you know, their friends or, you know, I find a lot of book clubs end up reading my books too. So adults who might, or, you know, adults who might read it and then take it to a teenager or vice versa. So let's talk about this and that, even the discussion of it will, I think, further communication and information. And so I just have to be brave about it and be ready to deal with whatever comes. Right. This would be a great book club choice. I think so. Yeah. Yeah. No, it would be, it would be, I would love to sit down with a group of people and really hammer out all of the details and all of our feelings. Um, I, for the record, I think that a lot of people are just going to so appreciate this book and connect with it on a lot of different levels. Um, so, so I, I, of course I know like there's always going to be criticism and there's always going to be bad reviews, but I think that this book is going to hit a nerve in a wonderful way with a lot of readers. I hope so. And I really, you know, although I was specifically aiming it at teenagers, knowing that I often, uh, for previous books have met with book clubs and I love, but I also certainly had an awareness of, you know, I have a teenager. I was a teenager at the time that I was a teenager. Things were very different. And so I know that any one sort of around my age, which is prime book club age, I'm 48. I think it's great material for that age group too. And to hopefully be talked about through multi-generations to sort of say, well, how did you see this? And what was it like when you were growing up and how is it different now? Because although we were like, I don't ever remember hearing the word consent in any kind of sex ed or any health class, never like it just wasn't discussed. So now it is discussed, but I know from my daughter and some of her friends that, although it is being discussed, you know, when you're hearing things from a teacher or a parent, I know that there are, you know, boys rolling their eyes and making a joke about it. And, you know, so there, it's still not getting through this message clearly, even though the message is now out there. And so there's need for lots of discussion. And so let's cross our fingers at, there is lots of discussion. Yeah. And of course that's coming at a very timely point in history. We know with the me too movement, um, happening. And, and I, I guess I kind of made the assumption that this book was in some ways inspired by me too. Is that true? Well, weirdly enough, uh, I started it a year before the me too floated, but me too, I think was boiling under the surface for a long time. And here in Canada, in 2015, we had a major radio, uh, personality. Um, CBC personality was, uh, exposed and brought up on charges of, in his workplace and private life, massive, massive sexual assault, sexual harassment. It was in the news daily. And, uh, I live in Toronto. So I also like know people who knew him, um, or had, you know, had encounters with him. So it was a huge discussion then. And I had also been just hearing like, you know, a radio piece about, uh, I remember I'd heard a radio piece about campus on campus, uh, rape crisis messaging and how it was starting to go beyond no means no. And I remember driving my car and thinking like me just second, there's a lot more to this, like the ongoing consent, the enthusiastic consent, the, you can stop at any time. Uh, all of that was kind of starting to too. So I remember actually I talked to my editor about it. I said, I think I'd like to write something about this because there are some really murky areas. There's lots of books that are about, you know, direct predatory situation ahead. I haven't seen, and probably there are, but I haven't seen anything dealt with in this specific way that I'm thinking of where it is a gray area. So there was that. And then of course, uh, as the me too stuff started to bubble under the surface, I started thinking about my waitressing days and like, Oh, workplace. Oh my gosh. Uh, and you know, in my case, I think when I was waitressing that harassment also came from fellow staff from management from, you know, and some of it was just really meant to be a jokey environment, but I, I definitely had that in my mind as well. So I started writing the book in, uh, I started thinking about the book in 2015 and did some brainstorming and then 2016 around the fall during the time that a certain, you know, now president was caught on tape talking about grabbing, uh, that also just spurred me out. And I was like, okay, well, I've got to continue with this book. This is horrendous. And so that's kind of how it has, so it all was in place and then me to happen. And I was in the middle of the book already. So that was pretty, that was great. And I tend not to try to write for any kind of trend, but I think I just was part of the, the general, like I was with everybody else starting to just feel like enough is enough. And so it worked out timing wise to be very timely. Yeah. Yeah. No, and I, I believe in, you know, these kind of society, Zeit Geist type of situations where there's just something kind of boiling under the surface that people are becoming aware of in different points of time in different locations, but it's all kind of connected. Yes, totally. Yeah. Um, do you, I'm not, I haven't read your previous books, so I don't know if they also, uh, deal with, you know, any sort of, uh, political aspects or, or, you know, society issues like this. Um, but I am curious, what do you think is as a writer and a creator, like what are some of our roles in affecting some of these cultural changes on, on kind of a bigger scale? Well, I do think it's important and I think, uh, I think we have to be willing to try and maybe get it wrong, but also do the work to try to, you know, not get it wrong in the first place. But I do think we have a responsibility. I don't think every book needs to be like, this is a very issue. We book, my other books are all very different. Um, they always have issues, but I haven't taken aim at something quite so powerfully as I have with this. My last book was a lot of mental health issues and things like that. So there were issues, but yeah, I think we have a big responsibility and I think as writers, we have a job to help people empathize with other people, uh, with other kinds of people to see different points of view. And I also think our kids, uh, our, our generation of kids are fantastic. They're very aware. They're amazing. And so if we can help them as well, um, to create a better future for all of us and for them and for future generations, I think that's really important, you know, the job of a writers, we're trying to tell important stories. So, you know, even if they're fun stories, you want to put something real in it that is going to hopefully be positive, right. And move society forward in a good direction. Yeah. And I agree. I am. So just in awe of this generation of teenagers, um, they're so impressive and so aware and I can't wait to see what the future holds for them. I'm really, really excited about it. Yeah. I'm impressed with them too. I really am. Um, okay. We are going to wrap this up with our happy writer lightning round. Okay. I'm ready. Okay. Uh, what book makes you happy? Okay. So, uh, often I liked the sweeping, uh, historical like Pachinko right now though. What books have been making me happy are Jane Austin novels. I've gone back to them. They've been really great for this type of a time period. And I love tests of the road by Rachel Hartman. Um, and, uh, I also read something great called brother by David Cherry, Andrew, which is a really well known Canadian book. Also those books have made me happy if he must like you had a theme song, what would it be? Oh, I don't know. Uh, I feel like it's okay. So the first thing that came to mind, no team will know this maybe, but is like, I will survive by Gloria Gaynor. That's the one that came to my mind to love that song. If I think of it, I could probably find something more current, but that was just my that's true lightning round. I was not prepared for that question. I know I've kind of, I've tried to start mixing them up, which I think my guest authors might get irritated because they can't prepare for you to get a more natural answer. So that's fair. Um, what do you do to celebrate an accomplishment? Okay. Definitely champagne. I don't drink a lot, uh, because I just have no tolerance, but really for anything celebratory champagne, how do you feel the creative? Well, I think I like to walk a lot. I read and I read a lot of the times I'll read something very different from what I am working on or planning to work on that tends to, to fill the well for me. And I also find that getting together with friends, I've known for a really long time, uh, where you can just really drop all of the, I don't know, expectation and everything. I find that a great night with really good friends who I've known forever is one of the best things for filling up the well. What is your favorite thing to do that has nothing to do with reading or writing? Let's see. Uh, I would say recently, actually I have been doing a lot of hiking and that has, although now my knees are injured, so I'm off of it, but I have been trying to find trails and going for really long walks. And that has become one of my favorite things. I also love to dance, which I also can't do right now. Is there like a specific kind of dance that you do literally like just in my house, just dancing around that's the once or twice a year that once a year, probably that I get invited to a wedding, my husband and I are definitely the last people on the dance floor and out there all night. So I do really, I've always loved to dance, uh, and I'm a total pop music person. Um, and as well as like, give me some eighties emo and I'm totally there, but, um, yeah, otherwise I do take, I think one of your other podcasts, somebody was talking about taking dance breaks and I deal, I'll get, uh, I'll put YouTube on and find a video of something that I, that is really fun and just dance around for five to 10 minutes when I, you know, at that time when you want another coffee, but you shouldn't know that time. Yes. So that's what I, that's when I do dancing and actually, uh, this is embarrassing, but I used to do the pitch perfect dance from the first movie, took that on and I would follow the moves. My daughter came down one time. She was like, you know, the whole thing. And I was like, don't tell anyone. So now I told you, so now that's awesome. That's so I love that that's like a panel at the next conference and you can teach it for fun to do this. I gotta fix my knees, but I'll be there. Okay. Sounds good. Um, what advice would you give to help someone be a happier writer? I'm such an unhappy writer on the side. This is also why I like listening to your podcast to get other people's advice, but I'm not that unhappy. I wouldn't say actually, I think, right. This stuff you really care about and try to set a routine and stick as closely as possible to it as you can so that you can get a feeling of satisfaction that you've done something every day. I think those are the two things. Yeah. I love that. I don't think anybody has given that specific advice before, but that sense of satisfaction having written something is that's one of, it's just like, it's just like, once you've done your workout, you almost never feel like doing it, but once you've done it, your happy writing is the same. When you finished your writing, isn't good that day, you still done it. Just like if you did your workout and you didn't work your very hardest, you still got it done. And, and I think there's really nothing better in a day than feeling like you've just, you've ticked that box and you're good for the day. You've done your words and you've or your focus time. However it is you, you do it. And, um, that's a great feeling. Lastly, where can people find you? You can find me on, uh, www.danielleyoungomen.com. That's my website. I am on Twitter. And of course, do I have that memorized? No, but it's Danielle. Why you, I think if you Google it, you'll find it easily. I have a Facebook page and I am also on Instagram. Not very prolific, but I am there and I'm just Danielle Young Allman there. Awesome. Thank you so much for joining me, Danielle. Thank you. I loved talking to you. Just love it. Readers. Be sure to check out. He must like you, which comes out on July 14th. And if you can, of course, we always encourage you to support your local indie bookstore. Please subscribe to this podcast. And if you're enjoying these episodes, I hope that you will let a fellow reader or writer know about them. You can find me on Instagram at Marissa Meyer, author and happy writer podcast until next time stay healthy. If you're still sheltering in place, then I hope you are staying cozy and whatever life now you're feeling a little bit
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