Marissa chats with Tracy Deonn about her debut contemporary fantasy - LEGENDBORN - and her contribution to the upcoming anthology - FROM A CERTAIN POINT OF VIEW: THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK - as well as what characters (and readers!) can learn from popular story tropes such as love triangles; tackling big questions of legacy, lineage, and how society decides who gets to become a legend; parsing out story information "just in time" versus "just in case"; and lots of love for Star Wars and its fandom. [Note: Proceeds from sales of FROM A CERTAIN POINT: THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK will be donated to FirstBook.org to provide books and learning materials to help underserved schools and communities. Cheers to the authors, Penguin Random House, and Lucasfilm!]
Books discussed in this episode can be purchased from your local independent bookstore or buy them online from the Happy Writer bookshop.org store (that benefits indie bookstores) at https://bookshop.org/shop/marissameyer
Find out more and follow The Happy Writer on social media: https://www.marissameyer.com/podcast/
Marissa chats with Tracy Deonn about her debut contemporary fantasy - LEGENDBORN - and her contribution to the upcoming anthology - FROM A CERTAIN POINT OF VIEW: THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK - as well as what characters (and readers!) can learn from popular story tropes such as love triangles; tackling big questions of legacy, lineage, and how society decides who gets to become a legend; parsing out story information "just in time" versus "just in case"; and lots of love for Star Wars and its fandom. [Note: Proceeds from sales of FROM A CERTAIN POINT: THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK will be donated to FirstBook.org to provide books and learning materials to help underserved schools and communities. Cheers to the authors, Penguin Random House, and Lucasfilm!]
Books discussed in this episode can be purchased from your local independent bookstore or buy them online from the Happy Writer bookshop.org store (that benefits indie bookstores) at https://bookshop.org/shop/marissameyer
Find out more and follow The Happy Writer on social media: https://www.marissameyer.com/podcast/
[inaudible]
Speaker 2:Hello and welcome to the happy writer. This is a podcast that aims to bring readers, more books to enjoy and to help authors find more joy in their writing. I'm your host, Marissa Meyer. Thanks so much for joining me. One thing, uh, this is making me happy. Or one thing I was going to say was making me happy this week is that we are supposed to get rain today and tomorrow, and here in Washington, we desperately need the rain because of all this smoke and the wildfires. And so when I heard that, I was like, yes, here comes the rain finally. But then today I heard that like the same weather system that is bringing the rain to us might also bring bringing more wind to Oregon and California. And then I thought, no, that's the last thing that they need. And so then that wasn't making me happy at all. Um, so instead I'm pivoting on that. Uh, and instead I thought, you know what, the thing that is really making me happy this week is books like just really good books. And I know that seems super obvious given the nature of this podcast, I can't believe I've made it 35 episodes without using this one yet. Um, but it is the thing that has been helping me feel grounded lately. And I know for a of myself and a lot of listeners books are they're in escape and they're a comfort. And you know, they're, they're old friends and they are new friends. And one of those things that I can just always rely on when life begins to feel overwhelming, which it has a lot this year, sadly. Um, so that is the thing that has truly been making me happy this week. Uh, and pretty much my whole life, hence a podcast about books. Um, speaking of great books, I am super happy to be talking to today's guest. She has worked in live theater, video game production and K through 12 education. And she is a self proclaimed fan girl who often speaks at science fiction and fantasy conventions and is a champion for diversity and representation in scifi and fantasy literature she's contributed to the anthology is our stories, our voices, and the empire strikes back from a certain point of view, which is coming out this November for debut. Why a contemporary fantasy legend born just came out last week, please. Welcome Tracy Dion. Hello. I'm so happy to be here. And it's still strange to me to hear star Wars in my bio. So thank you for that. I just had to sit for a second. I have you been star Wars finger, like your whole life?
Speaker 3:Yes, absolutely. I was raised one. I call myself a second generation fangirl because my mother was one. In fact, in my baby book, uh, I was, well, I was born in 1983 and return the Jedi came out that year and my mother wrote about return of the Jedi coming out in my baby book is like the movie of the year. And it was like, I love that she was fan girling in my baby book supposed to be about me, mom. And she's over here talking about how great return the Jedi is.
Speaker 2:It is, it was meant to be this lifelong fan girliness. I love that I was born in 1984. And so also like right in that generation. And I remember my brother and I going to my grandparents' house and they had two movies that we well six, I guess, cause they were both trilogies. Uh, but they had the star Wars trilogy and they had the Indiana Jones trilogy. And so those were like all that we would watch when we went over there. And so for me also, it started at a very, very young age.
Speaker 3:Great. There's D they're both John Williams, you know, uh, you know, they've Harrison Ford, those over and over and over again.
Speaker 2:It's really all about Harrison Ford. Yes. Yes. Um, so I definitely, I would love to talk to you about empire strikes back from a certain point of view because I'm super curious about it. Uh, but first, why don't we dive into your debut novel that just came out. Legend mourn. Could you please tell listeners what is legend born about? Sure. Yes.
Speaker 3:So legend born is about a 16 year old girl named Brie Matthews who is grieving the loss of her mother at the beginning of the novel. Her mother has recently died in an accident and she starts at early college program at a local university and the first night encounters, a flying demon, a major magic that she can see that other people can't see. And through a series of events with the major tries to erase her memory. An old memory comes back and she realizes that the night her mother died a member of, uh, the secret society that the major belongs to was there at the hospital. And so she decides to infiltrate the secret society to find out the truth and all sorts of all sorts of things on a unfold. It gets, uh, dangerous and it gets complicated when the secret society reveals that they are the descendants of the Knights of the round table. Uh, and there's lots of magical battles and fights and SUNY romance. And, uh, Brie is a Spitfire character. Who's sort of like a missile going towards her goal all the way through this plot. And it's a ton of fun to follow her.
Speaker 2:I agree. It is so much fun to follow her. I loved, and I can't remember exactly what you said just now, but something about how it's like a lot of fights and magic and SUNY romance or something along those lines. I was like, that's like a perfect encapsulation of this book, SUNY romance and awesome fights and a lot of magic,
Speaker 3:The Sweeney romance part. I think I was always going to write that in and I love that, uh, I was able to have a romance author, Alyssa Cole actually blurb the book, uh, because we really wanted to find a way to talk about the romance. There's a lot going on in this book really is important to the story and it's important to me. And it was really great to have a romance author be able to speak to it and just be like, yes, like this is a, this, the romance here is good. And it was very validating to me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, it really is. It's so good. There were so many heart stopping moments and yeah, I mean the characters really just saying together, I loved it. And even now like talking about it, I want to like ask questions about things that happen later in the book that I'm like, no, Zipit Marissa spoilers. Um, what was your, your progress for developing the romance? Like what, what were you trying to accomplish between these characters?
Speaker 3:Well, that's such a good question. And I, I recently in the past couple of weeks really come to an answer that I feel like is so true and I didn't quite have it in my, in my hand when I was writing. But now I do, which is, I really wanted a black girl, a teenage black girl in a white novel to be at the center of a love triangle. There are lots of tropes that I employ familiar, WIA tropes. I'm familiar with science fiction, fantasy tropes that I employ in legend worn, very purposefully. I chose all of them. I handpicked them because I'm, you know, I've kind of sewer of this genre. I, you know, like lots of authors, we've, we've read tons of books that play with all these strokes. And I picked, I picked them on purpose because I had never seen a black girl in a white book, be able to enjoy all of those tropes. And one of the biggest tropes that I think allows us to explore, uh, the widest range of emotions is a love triangle. And I, you know, I think people forget that tropes are a narrative vehicles through which we can explore a certain emotion. So if you go down a hallway of tropes and you turn and you open the love triangle door in there, you get yearning and you get self discovery and, uh, attention and, you know, questions like who do I want to be? And which, which of these romantic interests is helping me find the answers I need as a person. And, and you get all of these cool things to explore. And I, I, you know, people will call tropes, you know, sort of this thing and, you know, sort of poopoo then, but reality, they allow it as a writer and as a reader, they allow certain, you know, a character to really explore a range of emotions. And I wanted that for a black girl. I wanted Bri to feel desired from more than one direction. I wanted her to be able to think of herself in terms of, um, romance and be the center of one or more persons attention, you know, like she deserves that black girls deserve to see themselves as that.
Speaker 2:Yes, absolutely. I love that you are actually using like that. You can write and say it's a, it's a love triangle because it is a love triangle, but it's not clear at the beginning of the book. And it really, it took a while for me to feel like, like, what direction are we going here? Because you have these two male characters, they are both so dreamy in completely opposite ways. And you know, and it like, it has that, that hint of the, the love triangle trope. But I don't know for me personally, like the love triangle tends to be one of my least favorite tropes, because so often I read, you know, writers have these, these two characters and as the reader you think like, but obviously she should choose this person, right? Like, why are we even mucking around with that other guy, not the case here. And even by the end of this book, I was like, I still don't know. I don't know who I wanted to choose. I love them both. I don't know what's right here and I am dying to know what you're going to do with it.
Speaker 3:It's very purposeful as well. And, you know, I call it a love triangle because at this point I, you know, I talk a lot about why those are, why those are things that I like to write. And I think it's, by the end of the book, you can see that I'm going there, but you're right. It is, it doesn't start out that way. And you know, we've talked about it even with my editors, like, is this really a love triangle? Is it really? And I think you can see that I'm setting the groundwork for one. I don't think it's actually fully realized in this book, but I don't think it's a spoiler either, because I think, you know, as soon as you meet two cute boys in a way book, and you're like, okay, what are we doing? I do think it's really important that, you know, this is the first book in a series. Bri is going to have lots more time with both of these characters. And so there's a lot of road ahead for them to travel. But I also am that person who doesn't want a love triangle, where it's so obvious that this, this guy over here, this person over here is just not good for the protagonist. I wanted both characters to be in a position to teach Bree something and vice versa. And I wanted both characters to have arcs of their own that had nothing to do with Bri, for us to care about those arcs and to understand why Brie would care about those arcs. So I love that people don't know. I will tell you when I wrote the book, as I wrote the book, I also did not know which person I wanted.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Do you know now? Um, I feel like I can't
Speaker 3:Answer that. Um, mean you don't have to tell me who, but do you have any strong inkling? Um, I feel like I can't answer it. I know. Yeah. So I will say for this book, I, um, I went back and forth genuinely, probably half a dozen times. So, and I think it shows in the book actually that there are times when it's so clearly feels like this person is, is a great option. And then other time you're like, well, no, this person. And I think that that's some of that is me genuinely not knowing. And I feel like that's a little bit, the trick is that makes so much sense. Now that's a great strategy for, for writers out there who are trying to tackle that trope, like just really mess with your own head. Yeah. I mean, you have to love both of them. You know, I, I hope that this doesn't turn into like a, a ship team versus team thing. I mean, I totally get having a shoe, but I don't want anyone to be like, well, I don't want it to turn ugly because I genuinely do you have to love your characters, even the mean ones to write them for that many pages as you know. Yeah. No, absolutely. Um, and I totally know what you're saying. Like when I write romance, I very much have to feel that I could fall in love with this character myself. Um, and, and so I know exactly what you're saying that you have to be able to see why would Bri go either direction? What is it from each boy that, that she's, you know, feeling drawn to, uh, and as the reader, you really feel that too, they are both so great. Uh, but again, like so completely different from each other and in ways that are really compelling. Yeah. Yeah. And, and it was also so, so important that the two boys in this book have a history of their own. Like I find that that's really compelling to me that they aren't, that they have very good reasons to be on quote unquote, opposite sides of, you know, some narratives, some discussion, Bri, whatever. I didn't want them to just be in conflict because of three. Cause that's, that's not, there's not a mileage in that, you know, like to work with. Yeah. Well, for the record, I have a team I know who I'm rooting for. I will tell you I'm going to wait and see who, who you feel she should end up with. I just really hope she gets a happy ending. That's my one request I'm team Bree, you know, I feel very brave. 100%, let's be team Brie and then it'll all work out. I hope so. I do. I do. So I am almost embarrassed to admit that, you know, having been a fantasy lover, a folklore lover pretty much my whole life, uh, yet I know very little about our theory and legend. I feel
Speaker 2:Like it is one of those big empty gaps in my knowledge of the world of fantasy. But reading this book made me super curious to know more about it. I want to go read and learn and figure out where did the legend stop and where did Tracy Deon take over? I'm dying to know now. So my question for you is like, why Arthur, why King Arthur to begin with, um, what was it about this story that called to you? And is it something that you have loved for a long time or is it kind of a recent development maybe spurred on by the idea for this book?
Speaker 4:Yeah, so I have I'll answer the second course question. First. I have always been drawn to the legends of King Arthur in particular, um, via a why book B uh, uh, the darkest rising sequence by Susan Cooper, which is seventies, contemporary fantasy. I feel like it's like the OG contemporary fantasy book. It feels like it was such a long time ago, but it was really, you know, for me it was pivotal. I was obviously a, I wasn't born then, but when I picked up that sequence and it's five books, I just fell into them. And the idea of bringing, uh, our theory and legend forward is something that I it's a page that I borrowed at, uh, at a Susan Cooper's book, because she does that with her own very elaborate magic system that has nothing to do strictly with King Arthur, but King Arthur is a part of the story. And I feel like that's, that's the spirit of what happened with legend born. I actually started legend born, uh, out of a place of my own like personal experiences with loss and Brie. And what happened to my mother is the question that is the heartbeat of the book. And it just so happens that because Brie is asking questions about legacy and what happens to people in our lives who pass on and whose stories get lost or obscured versus the stories that live on forever like King Arthur. Um, you know, she's asking all the same questions that I was asking. And then Arthur, the Arthur and legend themselves sort of asked that question of legacy and generations and what happens to, you know, King Luther versus Arthur, his son, the pen, you know, and the pin dragon. And there's, there's all sorts of stuff about like monarchy and succession and all that. So it, it, the, the worlds that, uh, I was in as sort of a, I'm a creative person and as a personal, uh, PR you know, journey where the same worlds that Arthur inhabited in my mind. Um, and so it was very sort of natural for me to start thinking about legends. And because the idea of course is that there's a kernel of truth in a legend that somewhere at some point, some aspect of, of the story of Arthur actually existed in history. That's very debatable. And I think it's very, it's very small, small sand, like a piece of glass, like tiny little Colonel, like tiny little sliver, but that's what makes it a legend and not like a myth. Right. But there's some connection to a historical time in, or the idea of a historical time. Um, so yeah, once I, once I realized that there was commonality there, that's when I really took off. And the magic system really was something that I built as a re as a necessity, because if I wanted King Arthur and the legends of King Arthur to both be a legend, but also be a conceivably, realistically real in the modern day, cause this is still a contemporary book, then I needed to come up with a magic system that would support that, you know, like how would I, you know, so it was almost like backwards design. Like I want the King Arthur, uh, the round table to have descendants in the modern day. And I was like, okay, well, how would that happen? And what magic would be required to make that happen? And, you know, what would that look like for those generations to be connected? And once I started asking those questions, then I had whiteboards all over my house, you know, like really like spending probably a year, a year and a half coming up with the answers that I felt like could work for a whole series.
Speaker 2:My goodness. How long have you been writing this book for, for how long did it take you to write?
Speaker 4:Um, so the idea of Bree was born pretty much, um, like 2000 and I would say eight, I believe. Wow. Like the idea of breathe, like breathing is like the beginning of her and this, you know, my mother, when my mother passed away, um, I found out that my, uh, that she had lost her mother at the same time that I had, like within a couple months where we're the same age. And then that, that had happened to my grandmother. And I remember thinking what kind of Emma science fiction, fantasy writer, of course we're storytellers. So I was like, what kind of story would explain that? Like how, how do you explain patterns like that in your life and history? And, you know, when people die, I think we all, we all ask questions. Like, what's the story? How did this happen? And all that. And so Bree was born from that place. I didn't actually pick up a computer to write the first lines of the story until September of 2007. So it's been about three years, almost exactly. Oh, so 2017. Yeah. 2017. Yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 2:I was like, wait a minute. That math.
Speaker 4:Yes. Um, yeah, 2017. So it's been like three years from the very first sentence, but you know, I do a lot of pre-thinking before I write. So I feel like it's been living with me for longer than that. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I love that you bring up how your kind of your own personal history inspired, uh, Brie and her path because the book, I mean, it talks a lot about ancestry and bloodlines and you draw this. There's a very stark contrast between the legend born, uh, who are, you know, of course descended from King Arthur and the Knights of the round table. And they can trace their lineage back hundreds of years, like literally have this huge Memorial dedicated to their family trees. And then, you know, on the other side of the spectrum, you have Bri. And at one point she mentioned that she can only trace her family back to, uh, the emancipation and the end of the civil war. And that ends up becoming a really important theme throughout the book. Was that theme something that you knew you wanted to explore from the beginning? Or was it something that kind of, uh, evolved as you were writing the book?
Speaker 4:I think, um, I think the theme of whose whose ancestries and whose ancestors get escalated to be memorialized and legend was always sort of there in the background, but it really, it really came home for me once I realized that I wanted to set the book in chapel Hill in the South. So that space is so, uh, just rich, it's swimming in that question of, you know, whose ancestors and whose lives get elevated and memorialized literally, you know, um, versus whose stories get lost. And so once I realized that that's where I wanted it to be at the campus of UNC chapel Hill, which was built by enslaved people, um, in the 17 hundreds and is very, very old, has lots of history. Um, you know, once I realized that's where I was going to be, you know, sort of moving in mentally speaking, like I'm like, I'm going to be here then. And really couldn't let it not come up. You know, it, it really, it sort of created its own, um, historical environment and, and backgrounds. So I think that was really where the turning point is because that's, again, I'm asking questions about legacy and loss and legend and, and all of that. And it's very, for me personally, of course, as a, as a black American, I'm sitting there thinking like all the enough's for so many of the people in my community, there's a hard stock around, you know, the mid 18 hundreds. You just sort of like, I don't know. And then I've grown up in the South with, um, other people and even in school assignments, you know, they'll say, well, tell us what country your family originally came from. And that question is so loaded and so pain, um, for people who, um, you know, for black Americans, but for other people to, or been a victim of colonization. So, you know, to have peers growing up who would very proudly be able to point back to the specific country or this specific village in Europe, and then you look at the black and Brown faces and we're just like, we aren't, we were, that was taken from us. We don't get to, we don't know. We can't know. Um, that really feels like a huge thing that we as a country have never really reckoned with. And just so happens that this summer, even in 2020, the, some of these things are coming back up as we're looking at and
Speaker 3:Things. So all of that was swimming around in the air, uh, for me as a student at UNC. And then it just, as a country of the United States is still swimming in it. We were still having that conversation. It's so much these days, especially. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now, and it's, I mean, of course it couldn't be any more timely, um, with the Confederate statues coming down this past year and all of it. Um, and I'm sure you finished writing the book long before that, but reading it, I mean, there's just some really amazingly poignant moments in which a Brie is, is thinking about this and thinking about her history and kind of that longing that she feels to have those connections that were kind of stolen from her. Uh, it really brings up a lot of powerful feelings. Um, and I think it's going to bring up a lot of wonderful discussion around the book as well. Yeah, I hope so. I've been, you know, really excited about when we get to the point. I don't know. Do you know, like what point can you really just dig into the spoilers of a book? Like, I don't think you're there yet. The book's been out for less than a week. I know. I'm like, when does it, I'm like, I'm literally like polling my author friends six months later. Like when do you, because there's so much to talk about. Um, I mean, you and I are, even before we started recording, we were like having to stop her.
Speaker 2:It's true.
Speaker 3:No, it's true. This one, I would say that this would be a great book for a book club. If people need a choice for your book club, there is so much to talk about here. Yes. Maybe that's what I should do is make my own book club and then speak freely. That's one answer to your point. I just really want to tell people all the things I know I do. I feel like, I feel like in my mind, I'm so excited that everyone's starting to read the book and then I'm also partly, I'm feeling desperate to be able to unpack some of the things cause there's stuff in the book from, from that perspective about race and identity, there's stuff in the book that I'm doing my best to write about from my own experience and as a former academic. But I know that there are other perspectives on it. And I really am looking forward to hearing from people who have their own perspective on it. Um, whether it's, you know, uh, you know, a 16 year old reader or a historian, like I do feel like I don't feel ownership over this particular topic at all. You know, you can't, so I'm eager to hear how other people read that, that discussion, but also, you know, just want to gush about the things I like the most about the book, right? I mean, that's one of the great things about books of course, is that it does, it makes you think it makes you question, it opens up dialogue. Um, yeah. So I totally know what you're saying and you'll eat, there will come a day. You can speak freely and you don't have to worry about spoiling everything all the time. I know one day I did know that actually was something that I wanted to talk about because there are so many twists in this book. It is one of those books that keeps you guessing. And I would say even for maybe like the first quarter of the book, like Brie herself really has no idea what's going on. And the reader is kind of learning all of these things as Bree is learning them. And it's just this roller coaster in which you're throwing surprise after surprise at us. So on a craft level, like how did you go about deciding what information to parse out and when you were going to make certain reveals both to Brie and to the reader. Yeah. Um, so I hope I did a good job at this. This is a really challenging part of craft as a, as a writer. And so I didn't really, I will laugh. This is sort of in the same vein as the boys for the love triangle question. I didn't realize I was writing a mystery until I had already done like three drafts.
Speaker 2:I'm like, Oh,
Speaker 3:I'm writing a mystery. And I feel like I maybe even said this to one of my editors and they were like, aha, Tracy. Um, but you know, I really, I knew that I was obscuring information strategically and I knew that I wanted to also, um, show that, you know, have her literally like Alice go deeper and deeper and deeper down the rabbit hole and have all the information accumulate. So I knew all of that, but I didn't realize that that's actually part of the formula for a mystery, but, you know, I, I, I think in terms of decision making, I have this rule of thumb, uh, that I borrow from education because I used to be an educator, which is just in time information versus just, just in case. And just in case information is where you get info dumps of incredible size, because you are giving the reader information because you need to, you want them to know it and you as author sometimes can be antsy and just be like here, just put it. It's all in a paragraph. And it lives in a paragraph in my mind. So here, you all just read it all versus just in time information, which is information that the protagonist or the student in the original sort of set up only receives the may need to use it right before they need to use it. Um, when it becomes necessary to understand what's about to happen next. So that rule of thumb came into play probably in my second or third draft where I really went through and started to break up information and think about what, what Bree needed to know for the next scene, because I felt like if I could build it that way, then the reveals would leave you breathless, but you would also understand them. And that the breathlessness would partly be because you understand the implications, you
Speaker 4:Know, once they hit. So I think, you know, that sort of helped guide me in terms of information and reveals, but I also just love a good revelation. I love a good, um, I, I love, I love a good moment where the character and the reader realize something at the same time without you having to explicitly put it on the page, but you have to do so much setup to get there. Um, you know, I love those moments. So towards the latter half of the book, I think you start getting more of those where something happens magically. And you're like, Oh, that means, that means this, you know, and you wouldn't have known that in the, in the beginning of the book, cause you didn't have all the vocabulary or whatever yet.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, there are a lot of those moments and I am notoriously bad at picking up on where writer is going with things. And, but you surprised me time and time again and yet, so many of the reveals, I mean, they just felt inevitable. They were just perfect for the moment and I was really impressed on it, but I love that. I had never heard the, you know, Justin Case versus Justin time. I'd never heard it described that way. And I am absolutely gonna use that. That's a great way of thinking about the information that you're doling out in a draft.
Speaker 4:Oh yeah. If you really want to try and, um, you know, drip, it, you know, you want to kind of like a lay a little path and you have to, you have to remember what your reader can retain at any given moment. And remember too, that you might have to circle back and hit certain things again. And there's some parts in legend board, particularly around the hierarchy of the order where I was like, this is just confusing. And I hope that I'm making it as clear as possible. And that was probably the most laborious part. And even that, I don't know that I really effectively nailed, but I do think that you'll have, you know, I knew I was writing for a series and I'm like, I'm gonna do my best here, but I also know that it's going to come back up and book to you. You're going to have to reengage with that hierarchy and learn and remember how the words all matter to one another. And hopefully you get it by the end of book one. But, um, I just had to remind myself that I'm building a bigger world and I want to be propulsive and to have by book two, I want the reader to just be like right with Bree and to not be, um, to not have to feel like Bree knows more than they do. I want everyone to just be in sync of like now we're now we're pursuing and living in the world versus learning. Um, so that's the energy that I'm hoping for, but yeah, it's hard. It's hard.
Speaker 2:It is hard. I'm wondering if one of those white boards around your house is just like a big hierarchy family tree design. Yes. I figured it had to be, yes.
Speaker 4:Um, my, uh, I have a bunch of those and actually I had to start erasing them. And so I would take pictures. So I have my in my, um,
Speaker 3:And backed up to the cloud. I have a lot of photos of whiteboards that we, you know, I say we, cause my partners would sometimes help me cause I'm very analytical. And um, so it'd be helpful to have somebody to be like, okay, what about this? And you know, often what I was doing was looking for weak spots in the magic system. And so where does the whole heart, you know, what would be the example where it w you know, if it breaks open and you no longer as a reader can believe it. So basically trying to inhabit the mind of that one reader, who's just looking for all your weak spots, you know, those readers. Yes. But when I do find the weak spot, it is hard to let go. So I didn't want to, I didn't want to have a bunch of those. So there are definitely white boards of family lines of different nights. And I had to do a lot of research about how people talk about a generation, like, what is a generation? Oh, it's typically like 25 years because it's a word. It doesn't have numbers attached to it, but I needed to have numbers because yeah. Right. You know, I needed it to have like some concrete sense of time because we're talking about the very specific potential person who lived in the sixth century. Yeah. Consistency. It's important, but man can be a headache. Oh yeah. I mean, I jinxed myself. Like I totally messed myself up so many times. And then I would get excited and be like, yes, I fixed it. And then the next morning and be like, Tracy, Nope, that doesn't work. So that's why I think that's why it took about a year, a year over a year to do the magic system along. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, nicely done. I didn't see any glaring obvious. I didn't see any errors or anything that I was like, I don't think that works.
Speaker 3:So I am not one of your readers is commission
Speaker 2:Getting anything that you've done?
Speaker 3:I don't know what to like, call that re existence. I feel like I've done that a little bit now. I'm like, now that I've talked about it, you rises up and is like, it is, I, you know, your archenemy please. If you're out there, it's totally okay. I know, I know there's something, keep it to yourself, please. Don't you know, but yeah, I do think that happens. And in that way, you know, it was really helpful. So I wouldn't Schuster, uh, really put a lot of support behind this book from an editorial perspective, because I have two editors and that's really not typical a debut. So they having two pairs of eyes was actually really critical cause they could catch things too. Yeah,
Speaker 2:Definitely. I know my copy editor has caught so many things over the years and like weird little timeline issues and yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah. The more the merrier bless them. Bless copy yet. I know they're the best.
Speaker 2:Um, okay. I, I don't want to run out of time before talking a little bit about
Speaker 4:Your star Wars anthology. That's coming out in November, the empire strikes back from a certain point of view, what is it and what is your contribution to it? So I, you know, working with within star Wars is very interesting. So I have, I have very specific things I can, I can say, but I probably can't say too much. Um, which is the excitement of working in a world like that. But the anthology is, uh, a bit of a SQL to an anthology that came up three years ago from a certain point of view for star Wars for a new hope was, uh, it's a charity project. And in it, there's a number of authors who are writing from the perspective of usually a minor character or even a fictional character. Um, in the first anthology we had someone writing from the perspective of the R two unit. They sort of like a small droid unit. I actually don't know if it was an R two, but a small droid unit. I think the red one that bloop doesn't choose at the beginning of the movie, it's the way, you know, like that he ends up, but it's another, so like, you know, there's interesting, um, or perspective of a jaw, um, you know, uh, some, uh, see here wrote the perspective of like, um, I think one of the Tusken Raiders. And so you, you have people picking characters that we just don't focus on and star Wars is such a massive world and it really, isn't a wonderful invitation to bring new voices to the star Wars Canon. And it's sort of like pseudo Canon, but it's, it's pretty again, I mean, it ends up in Wikipedia, so it's kinda, as far as I'm concerned, there you go. Yeah. You know, that's a big part of the project and I, um, uh, they announced that my story is, uh, from the perspective of the cave of evil on diggaba in empire strikes back. So yes, yes. How clever it's. Um, yeah, I was really, I like it. I think I could say that I was really surprised that I was able to do that because obviously the cave is a stone landform and not, you know, a, you know, a person. Um, but I'm really excited that they let me do that. And, uh, I actually, I don't know all the perspectives in the book. I think it's about 40 authors. Oh, wow. Yeah. So I don't know exactly what all we're going to get from empire, but I can't wait. I'm hoping, I'm hoping that we get some really good stuff from the beginning of that movie, which is like Hoff on the ice planet, because I love that. Yeah. Oh my gosh. So much potential. Yeah. Yeah. It's a wonderful project and it's, you know, I, I, as a fan girl, I really love that we have star Wars, um, as an expansive and invitational fandom and universe, like it's, it's been going on since, you know, uh, 1977. So you've got decades of voices contributing to this world and they've reset Canon. And of course there's all sorts of, you know, stories from maybe the nineties that are no longer quote unquote, correct Hannon, but it's just the idea, the spirit of it being invitational, I think is just really nice bringing people together. Star Wars. Yup.
Speaker 2:Well, that's so cool. And did you say that it's also for charity?
Speaker 4:Yes. Yes. Um, I am missing the name of the charity for empire. I want to make sure to get it right. So I won't say it and get it wrong, but, um, yeah, this is a project where they contribute, uh, a large chunk of the proceeds to charity. And I love, I also love that sort of
Speaker 2:Yeah. I'll, uh, I'll see if I can find what the charity is and try to include it.
Speaker 4:Okay. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Excellent. That's so great. Uh, I can't wait, can't wait to read it coming out. Uh, November. I didn't write the exact date, but sometime in November.
Speaker 4:Yes. And there'll be, there's more to come about it. I, you know, it's a very, uh, a very strategic, wonderful team. They have over there about how to introduce new star Wars content. So I think if you just keep an eye out there will, there'll be more news about it as we get closer.
Speaker 2:Cool. And did you approach them or did they come to you?
Speaker 4:Um, I, it was a little bit of a mix. Um, I personally didn't do it, but, uh, you know, I think that they have a good, um, I think this particular mission, uh, in terms of I can call it a mission. I think that they really wanted to find new, new voices, uh, the anthology, because it's so many stories, um, is just a great opportunity. And I think they've spoken about this on social media, that they are excited to bring new voices and they opened, you know, that's sort of happening in the book world with the, um, high Republic, which is another sort of new world of star Wars that got announced recently. Um, you know, I really think they were looking for new voices, so I'm excited to see how that plays out, but, you know, the energy of, of the anthology even last time, um, was that they had established voices, some of whom were already associated with star Wars and some who had never written star Wars before. And so I'm happy to be in the latter group for this, this Anthem.
Speaker 2:No, that's so cool in, I mean, obviously growing up with it, it must feel a little like
Speaker 4:Pinch me, is this real? Yeah, really. I mean, I, you know, I think I was able to do looking for layout, which is a docu series, uh, that is on scifi.com and who was airing on scifi earlier this, uh, last year, December, January, December, I think, um, and looking for layers of about star Wars fandom. So it was really special to me to be able to speak about fandom as a Finn academic, as someone who had studied fandom, you know, briefly in my graduate school days and also be a fan girl at the same time. Um, yeah, no, it's really nice to be able to be a professional who can take part in something like a star Wars book. So,
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's cool. I didn't know that about you. I'm going to go find it now. Did you say it was on Netflix?
Speaker 4:Um, it's on spotify.com also on their YouTube and it's a, it's a docu series, um, about sort of, um, marginalized perspectives and fandom and how they've always been in star Wars fandom, and there's episodes of focus about makers, people who are using three D printers to make their own droids and there's episodes about cost players and writers and all the participatory fandom that happens around star Wars, um, and the community and relationships to get built between people. Um, and it's, uh, they're features women, fans, nonbinary fans, fans of color. It's really lovely.
Speaker 2:What a great idea. That sounds amazing.
Speaker 4:Yes, absolutely. I would definitely check it out. It's it was one of the funniest things I've ever done.
Speaker 2:Super cool. And that was looking for Leah. Yes. Awesome. Cool. I feel like I have like so many things to go check out after talking to me
Speaker 4:For as long as, as long as it's not to like poke holes in my Bajic system then
Speaker 2:Never, never. All right, Tracy, we're going to wrap this up with our happy writer lightening round. Okay. First up, what book makes you
Speaker 4:Happy uprooted by Naomi Novik? I am not familiar. What is it about it's wonderful. It's uh, it's about, um, a sort of a twist on the idea, the folk tale of like an, a dragon who, you know, takes a young, made it away in this world. A dragon, uh, comes to a village and takes a young maiden away every 10 years, um, as payment for keeping the Valley around the village safe, except in this case, the dragon is a crumpy wizard named the dragon. Um, and so it's about different magic. And, you know, the girl that gets taken away is our protagonist and it's about their relationship. It's not really expressly a romance, but it is about, uh, two people who are very different, have very different magics learning to work together. So it's, you know, it's, I just find it lovely enriching language. And for months afterwards, I would open my Kindle and just go back to like a particular paragraph and just read it, you know, that's, you know, those types of authors that just like, Oh yeah, yeah, I know those books are magical.
Speaker 2:What do you do to celebrate an,
Speaker 4:Um, I like to have a bottle of sparkling Rosa nearby so that I could have pink, fuzzy alcohol. And I also really enjoy, um, having just like a quiet moment to watch a sweet, a sweet television show. Um, you know, where I just, I know that nothing wrong is going to happen and it's going to make me laugh. You know, like I really, I love just relaxing on the couch and enjoying a story that I love. And, and, um, that sounds so simple and definitely a home body in the time of COVID. It is one of my favorite things to do though, is to just sit and, uh, enjoy that. I also, uh, really pre COVID. I would say, I really love going out to eat sushi.
Speaker 2:No, I love it. You're speaking my language, some smart wine and a cute sweet story. And that's all that I want in life. Yes. Right.
Speaker 4:I just want something where I'm like, I know no one's going to die. Everyone is great for that. I don't know if you've seen the babysitters club. Oh, it's so good. It's like exactly the updated version of the babysitter's club books that we all deserve. And it's good. It's wonderful. Okay. Stop recommending things. I know. I'm sorry.
Speaker 2:How do you feel the creative? Well,
Speaker 4:The best thing for me to do is to get away from a screen, um, and go enjoy a, uh, something creative that I don't do. So, um, if I were to, you know, sometimes I would say, Oh, I go and read a book. That is something I don't usually write, but even that's a little tricky because as a writer and, and I'm sure you've experienced this, you can sort of have craft brain and you can start to, you know, you can start to analyze what you're reading is, I'm enjoying it. So I like to do, you know, I like to experience other creative art that I don't make myself. Um, so that might be web tunes, web comics. I really enjoy those. Um, might be going back to just listening to music. I don't know if you have, like, I feel like nobody remembers this, but like we used to just listen to music and not do other things. I recently discovered like rediscovered this. I was like, Oh, you mean, I can just listen to the music and not multitask, not like cook dinner or whatever. Uh, so sometimes it's that sometimes it's reading poetry, which, you know, can, can really shake my brain out of what world I'm in. Um, it's taking a walk it's really, you know, anything from using my body, you know, and being active, whether, you know, taking a bike ride or whatever, or, um, just enjoying some visual art, like a play, you know, if I could do that, I would be doing that right now, but I can't have it, uh, something where it's just like, I don't make that currently. I don't make that, but that is art
Speaker 3:That I can totally just immerse myself in and let my brain relax and enjoy. Yeah. Yeah. I love it. Covert though. Cohen's really getting in the way of stuff for real, for real. But it's also, you know, it's allowing cool things. Like my I'm having launch events and there are people in the triple digits who were able to attend and that would have never heard, you know, at a bookstore. So yeah, no, you're right. There are absolutely silver linings to it. What advice would you give to help someone be a happier writer? Um, it's going to sound perhaps cheesy and very familiar. Um, but just to, um, write the story that you, you need. You know, I really feel very strongly that if you write the story that you need, not something you want to write necessarily, because I think want to get into like outside expectations, you know, and you can sort of slide away from your own fuel and your own core, but like, if you just, you just really need to get out that need feeling. Like, I think we should all be savoring and chasing down and enjoying. And even if you don't even publish that, you just had to get it out. Like, I just feel like it's good to do that for ourselves. Sometimes I just write fanfic and I know I'm never going to publish it and no one's going to see it, but I needed to get that sort of story out of my system. And I love it. And it reminds me of why I like writing. Oh, that's good. I think that's so important to hear truly keep that passion at the center of things. Yeah, absolutely. And again, give yourself grace that not everything you produce needs to be a product. Yeah, definitely. Lastly, where can people find you? Um, I am pretty active on Twitter. Uh, Tracy Dion, his, my name there, my handle and the same at Instagram, tra C Y D E O N N. And then you can find me on Tracy deon.com. Tracy, thank you so much for joining me today. You're very welcome. These are excellent questions. I had so much fun. Oh my I'm so glad you thought. So I had so much fun too, and I have to admit, I'm kind of like withholding my gushing a little bit as much as I can because I truly loved this book and it just so excited to be able to have you on. Oh, thank you. I'm so happy to hear that. I'm a big fan of sender. So I'm just going to, I'm like, I've been holding onto that this whole time and congratulations on your debut launch reader readers. Be sure to check out legend born, which is out now. Of course, we always encourage you to support your local indie bookstore if you can. But if you don't have a local indie, you can also check out our affiliate store at bookshop.org/shop/marissa Meyer. You're enjoying these conversations.
Speaker 2:We would love it. If you subscribed and help us spread the word to other readers and writers, you can find us on Instagram at Marissa Meyer, author and happy writer podcast until next time stay healthy and cozy in your bunkers and whatever life throws at you today. I do hope that now you were feeling a little
Speaker 1:[inaudible].