Marissa chats with Robin LaFevers about her new historical fantasy duology - COURTING DARKNESS and IGNITING DARKNESS - as well as maintaining historical accuracy in a novel while blending in fantasy elements (and how traveling from place to place just might be a historical writer's worst enemy!); one strategy for writing romance, inspired by screenwriter Michael Hague's concept of "essence" vs. "persona"; how to cope if you're facing creative burnout in 2020; and some ideas for restructuring your life and process in order to mimic a time when writing was fun.
Books discussed in this episode can be purchased from your local independent bookstore or buy them online from the Happy Writer bookshop.org store (that benefits indie bookstores) at https://bookshop.org/shop/marissameyer
Order The Happy Writer: Get More Ideas, Write More Words, and Find More Joy from First Draft to Publication and Beyond https://bookshop.org/a/11756/9781250362377
Find out more and follow The Happy Writer on social media: https://www.marissameyer.com/podcast/
Marissa chats with Robin LaFevers about her new historical fantasy duology - COURTING DARKNESS and IGNITING DARKNESS - as well as maintaining historical accuracy in a novel while blending in fantasy elements (and how traveling from place to place just might be a historical writer's worst enemy!); one strategy for writing romance, inspired by screenwriter Michael Hague's concept of "essence" vs. "persona"; how to cope if you're facing creative burnout in 2020; and some ideas for restructuring your life and process in order to mimic a time when writing was fun.
Books discussed in this episode can be purchased from your local independent bookstore or buy them online from the Happy Writer bookshop.org store (that benefits indie bookstores) at https://bookshop.org/shop/marissameyer
Order The Happy Writer: Get More Ideas, Write More Words, and Find More Joy from First Draft to Publication and Beyond https://bookshop.org/a/11756/9781250362377
Find out more and follow The Happy Writer on social media: https://www.marissameyer.com/podcast/
[inaudible]
Speaker 2:Hello and welcome to the happy writer. This is a podcast that aims to bring readers, more books, to enjoy and to help authors find more joy in their writing. I'm your host, Marissa Meyer. Thanks so much for joining me. One thing that has been making me happy this week is it is national novel writing month, AKA NaNoWriMo. And I am doing it this year as as many of you know, it was a tough decision because of course there's the book I'm supposed to be writing, but I really, really wanted to spend a month working on this other side project that I am so excited about. And here we are, maybe about a week in and it's going really well. I'm definitely behind on the word count, but not so far behind that I can't get caught up and it's just been really nice working on something fun and different that, you know, it doesn't have all the pressures of publication associated with it. So don't tell my publisher that I'm not doing what I'm supposed to be doing, but regardless it has been so much fun. So if you are also doing nano this year, I hope that you are enjoying it. And I hope that your word count is going great. But if it's not, don't worry, we've got this. We can do it. I believe in you and I am here cheering for you. And of course I am so happy to be talking to today's guest. She is the New York times bestselling author of more than a dozen books for middle grade readers, including the Theodosia and Nathaniel flood beast tologist series. She is also the author of the, his fair assassin trilogy, which is a young adult historical fantasy series. That just happens to be one of my personal all time faves. I love the series so much. You guys more recently, she has completed a companion duology, which consists of courting darkness and igniting darkness, which came out this past August. Please. Welcome Robin lift fevers. Hello? Hello. Hi Robin. How are you? I'm good. Thank you. How are you? I'm feeling all pumped after listening to your intro. I'm ready to go out and like write a thousand words in the next 10 minutes. So I know it's kind of a little pep talky today, but I'm really, I had a great writing day this morning. And so I'm just like feeling it I'm in the moment I'm in the group. Well, you infected me. That's great. That's good. I know. Yeah. Let's hang up. We'll come back to this later. No, um, it is still good to talk to you, you know, that I am a huge, huge fan and, and I just really love your books. And I'm so glad that you were able to make time to come on the podcast today, but you were so sweet to invite me. And I'm so glad to hear you like the book so much. You are just, you were like a force in the whole community, so I'm just in awe of all that you do and kind of watch before gate mouth is you
Speaker 3:Juggle 17 different balls, but anyway, mutual admiration society.
Speaker 2:Thank you. I'm going to, I want that on a bumper sticker, a force in society. That's me. Um, so Robin, why don't we start out with you telling listeners about your news duology, uh, cording darkness and its sequel igniting darkness.
Speaker 3:So when I had first finished the, his first trilogy, I knew that I needed a pretty long creative break because the debt, as you well know, the deadlines can be kind of, kind of crushing. And these books were not light or short books. They come in, they come in long, like anywhere from 120 to 130,000 words. But, but, but I also that's after I trimmed them down considerably. So they're not in, there's a lot of research, so I was pretty ready for a creative break, but the muse had other ideas and cause kept whispering to me. It was mostly Sabella at first kind of saying, you know, the Savella for those of you who don't know is the heroine of the second book in the trilogy, dark triumph, and is probably the most, um, Holy sprung from out of who knows where character I've ever written and also the most angry. And, um, what's the word you would use for her fierce? Yes. And yes. And anyway, so I have her voice was bring my ear, telling me, you know, what? You never really finished my story. I mean, you got me to a better place, but I'm still sort of hanging in there. I've got all this family, who's still circling, you know, I'm really not done and pay attention here. And I was like, yeah, but yeah, but I'm tired of my wrist hurt and my back hurts. And then after awhile, when she wasn't talking to me, another voice started talking to me and it took me a while to figure out who she was because she was this character I had mentioned in mortal heart, the third book of the trilogy as just a throw away line, truly, um, about a girl who had been sent to the French court at 12 to be a deeply buried mole and report back to the convent. Only the comment kind of forgot about her. And she was talking my ear wondering about, well, so why have they never contacted me? Did they not believe me? Why have they not? But what the heck's going on? So I had these two voices talking at me and that is actually how many of my stories come to me. I start hearing dialogue. I start hearing characters, voices, and I might not have any idea who they are, but this voice just, um, is so real to me. And that's how it was with both of those characters. And that second one, her name turned out with Genevieve and, um, she was feeling very betrayed and alone. She'd been sent to France with her best friend, Margo who had kind of given up on the convent and was kind of getting totally sidetracked by the whole French court life and politics and romance. And, um, Jennifer was about at the end of her rope. And I feel like I lost track of what the question was.
Speaker 4:Um, mostly just one. What are the books about?
Speaker 3:So these two assassins, these are two, two daughters of death in the book. The premise is that girls who survive birth trauma and are considered to be sired by the God of death, who in these books is actually a real God who is now called Saint by the Catholic church as so many of the earlier pagan gods and goddesses were. Um, and they've just in the first trilogy, they completed this great big political goal they needed to do, which was to, um, Beth, you have to be careful.
Speaker 4:Well there's anyway, it must be really hard talking about these books because so much of it slides on the first three, but the original trilogy,
Speaker 3:It really does. And in fact, there's some people who've said that this wasn't a separate duology. This was his first number four and five. And we actually talked about it back and forth w ith the publisher. W e, w e, we r ealize an argument can be made either way. U m, so anyway, Sabella is accompanying the young, the 14 year old Duchess of Brittany to France, where she is too big spoiler alert M ary, the French King, u m, because France and Brittany h ave been enemies for so long. They're not really excited about sending her alone to the French court, especially because the region of France has been her bitter enemy for years, but Sabella is fierce and assassin and is likely to punch you or stab you issues to have any kind of d iplomatic conversation with you. So this is a huge shift for her and her skills and she's kind of, kind of going to have to blind all sorts of skills she hasn't ever used before. U m, and Genevieve in the meantime is getting ready to l ike turn the tables over. She doesn't understand what's happening. She's just learned that the D uchess is getting married and to the King of France, i t was just something she thought she was always supposed to, the comment was supposed to keep from happening. And I'm really botching this. U m,
Speaker 4:So complicated books are complicated books. So basically yes, that's a, basically
Speaker 3:Two threads Sabella is trying to keep the Duchess safe in the French court and keep her from having the French enemies that have been there all along from completely undermining her, her queen Harrain his queen and Genevieve is trying to figure out why the heck she hasn't been called up and trying to find some way she can help and be useful and comes up with a plan that she sure, um, will be helpful to the queen if she can just get to where she is, but that's going to be the hard part. And then of course she discovers this mysterious prisoner in the Dungeons of the castle where she's staying and they sort of form as uneasy Alliance and, and then things just get very complicated from there
Speaker 4:And more complicated. Yes. One of, one of the things
Speaker 3:That w one of the core things about these books was I wanted to write a book about, um, a girl screwing up really big, like making a really huge mistake for all the right reasons, but making a mistake so big. She thought I'm never going to be able to come back from this because I feel like there's so much pressure on girls and young women to be perfect and to not make mistakes. And there's no breathing room. Um, and I, I don't know if you would agree with this or not, but I think we actually learn a lot more from our mistakes and we do from our successes. And I think by denying girls and young women chances to make mistakes, mistakes, and learn from them, we're denying them huge growth opportunities. So that was one of the premises of the book that Jennifer Genevieve was going to turn over the tables, thinking she was doing absolutely the right thing, and then have it kind of blow up in her face. And then this second book igniting darkness is the one, if she and Sabella having to try and fix it all and put it back together again.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, it's interesting. Did you kind of go into this knowing it was going to be a two book story because that mistake that you're talking about, which we obviously won't say what it is cause it's a very big spoiler. Um, but it happens like right at the end of the first book. So it's almost like the first book is all building up to this huge pinnacle moment. And now the second book is, you know, taking off from there and like, okay,
Speaker 3:How do we fix this? How do we put everything back together? Exactly. Um, well I knew who was going to be a duology in the first case, the first draft of cording darkness came in at 200,000 words. Wow. I know it's a scary. And um, if I may ask, I think like 150, maybe 145, so a lot of, a lot of cutting and this was like, it's, it's due to the copy editor in two months and I'm saying, it's I told my editor it's too long. She goes, well, where would we just trim a paragraph here? And I said, no, it's like too long by structural magnitudes. I have to restructure it. And then we, we actually talked about making it a trilogy, but I think, I think books come with their own shape. And it was really two parts of the story. I think even if it was written in one book, if it was the story was short enough to fit in one book that would have been the critical midpoint, the big midpoint reversal. But, um, there was absolutely no way to do it in other than two books. So always it was going to be duology. I didn't know. I've never ended a book on quite that kind of a cliffhanger before, so I felt a little bad, but again, no, the place to end that.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I actually, when I, cause I was at your Seattle event when cording darkness came out and of course pre COVID and I remember like, that was one of the questions I asked you when I got up to the signing table was like, how big of a cliffhanger is this? How much should I wait for book two to come out? Um, and you, you were honest and said, yeah, it's kind of a cliffhanger. And so I did wait until both out and it was the best decision. So I just binged them both back to back, which was so great.
Speaker 3:Oh wow. They went like a month of your life. Probably That's a big reading commitment. And then it w it was also hard because it was supposed to come out. Like, I think in like, it was either, I can't remember now April or may, but then with COVID it got pushed back. So it was like, it was already going to be a 14 month wait, and then they got cause of COVID they pushed it back another three months. So it was like, so,
Speaker 2:Right. I know, I know it is hard, poor readers. So that does make me curious, you know, you started with this very, very long 200,000 words and then had cut it back, um, and lost, you know, roughly a quarter of it to get to the final book. Is that common for you? Do you tend to write very long first drafts and then have to scale back?
Speaker 3:You know, it's funny, it's, it's common for me now. It didn't used to be, it used to be that I wrote very skinny drafts and would fill them in, but that was also at a point in time when I would, there were, that was like my middle grade in particular, they were much shorter books. And I would often do like 10 or 12 drafts as I kind of sketched in almost like, like a watercolor artist doing layers type thing. But then once I started writing bigger books and once they started being on deadline and once, um, the, you know, the editing on a hard draft and then entering it into the computer is a little bit harder ergonomically than just posing. I started putting more into my first draft. So, um, it would be farther along in the process. So instead of like, my current first drafts are about what it took me three drafts to get to when I wrote shorter drafts. So yes, that's common. That was exceptionally. That was the exception.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 3:I think part of it was, and this was the same thing with the trilogy. There's so much fascinating history and so many fascinating historical characters that it's really easy to lose sight of the one story thread that you're following.
Speaker 2:Yes, no, I was going to ask if you thought it might have something to do with, uh, just research and I mean, you must just be a wealth of knowledge about this time period. Um, and I, like, I will admit there have been times in reading the book where I have like jumped onto Wikipedia. You like, wait, is this a real person? It is a real person. Um, and I always, I love discovering that because you really are blurring the line between history and fantasy, uh, in a lot of ways where it is not easy to tell a lot of times, is this real? Is this based in truth? Or did this come out of Robin's imagination? So for you, when you're writing and you're developing these plots, are you really trying very hard to stick to the history and not veer off course? Or do you feel like you can have a little bit more wiggle room for the sake of the story? Well, so first of all,
Speaker 3:Your words, nothing could make me happier than having you say that, because that is exactly my goal. I want to weave the history and the stories and the fantasy elements in. So, so seamlessly that you really can't tell what's real and what's not, and you have to go look it up because those are the kind of books that I love. So I really am tickled that that's what your reaction is. And I am very conscious of break trying to stick as close to the history as I can, but not if it means sacrificing the story, especially in terms of small, small picture things. So like for an example, the Del Bray family, the, um, they probably weren't quite as evil in real life as I have painted them in the books, although there's evidence that they were very ruthless and kind of thing and underhanded, but whether they actually, I mean, obviously they didn't commit the deeds that I signed to them. Um, but I didn't take somebody who was sweet and lovely and turn them into avail. And I took somebody who already had a lot of villainous overtones in their historical account and use and use that to kind of run with. So I feel like if I think there are some historical books where it's the type of story where you want to steer as close to him, you're trying to actually recreate an event or a person's life in history. And mine was more creating a very realistic historical senile that my fantasy assassin, none side by death could then move through, you know, in a way that felt as real as you know, our everyday life did. So, and I think that's gonna vary from author to author and what your goal is in, in the type of story you're telling. So, but for me, I do stay as close to history as possible because I like that sense of it could really have happened, but, but I, but the story always comes from,
Speaker 2:So can you think of any like real life, real world history that just really fouled you up and did you ever find yourself being like, why didn't these two people get married or why did they have to, you know, Oh, it was war against this country that doesn't work for me at all the history books.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So there's, um, account Del Bri. I kind of wanted to know why he lives so long.
Speaker 2:I can't, I kill you off. Yes. Yeah.
Speaker 3:So I want to, I want to cue you up in a much more satisfying way. And there was actually a number of characters I would like to have killed off in a more satisfying way, or, um, the fact that, um, by all historical accounts, initially the King of France and the debts of Bernie and did not have smooth relationship in the beginning. And part of that made for a good story, but it made me really did it made the ending of the third book in the trilogy kind of false. So that, that will, so what does that look? How do you get that? How do you get that ironed out? Um, and it was interesting
Speaker 2:Cause you want the Duchess, she's wonderful. She's one of my favorite characters and I want a happy ending for her so much, but she's also one of the biggest question marks because I know that she is a historical figure and you know, Queens and duchesses, which gets kind of passed around as politics suited. So it really does.
Speaker 3:Right, right. And she, I mean, she was a woman for time. And so therefore it didn't have it easy in any way, whether it was, um, getting some power in her marriage or being respected by the court or, you know, luck in childbirth. She just, she just had a heck of a road. So I kept, that was, that was actually, it was a big challenge in history, was finding places where I could stop it. So it felt like she was going to have a happy ending, at least a happy for now ending classic happy for now endings. Um, but that, that was very difficult. And the only thing was traveling, Oh my gosh. Like, why do you guys take so long to get from point a to point B that's the bane of my existence because it's so tedious. However, however, as you probably will know, when you travel with somebody, you learn a lot about them. So it's a little disingenuous, especially if you're writing a romance to have the hero and heroine go on a road trip and not cover it. You CA I mean, texture, normally you could just do a transition. Say two weeks later, they arrived in, you know,
Speaker 2:Nothing happened of interest,
Speaker 3:But you know, you know, on the road with those dark nights and that camping on, you know, camp rolls, I mean, you know, that things happen and you know, that you learn things about traveling while you travel with people and there's stress and pressure and boredom and, and the political maneuvering goes on. So you have to kind of find a way to make the travel time, be interesting enough to that's anyway. I mean, sometimes it's interesting, not that you can pull it in, especially if there's like people getting like first meets and falling in love, and then other times you try and transition away as much as you can, but it's kind of, I think it's the curse of all historical writers. How do we cover travel time?
Speaker 2:Oh, that's so interesting. I wouldn't have having not written historical fiction. It would not have occurred to me that that is one of the big challenges, but it makes so much sense. I mean, it just took forever to get anywhere. Yeah.
Speaker 3:And then how much do you bring in their horses? I mean, people would create, you know, they'd have a relationship with their amounts usually. And so do you, do you bring that in, I mean, I mean, how much do you show to be realistic and how much do you just leave out? Because nobody really needs to read the book for that. It's such a fine line between do anything. Although I have to say now though, I think that's one thing fanfiction has changed a lot of, and that a lot of readers do enjoy those quiet moments of the story that so many writers were trained to ignore and not include because they weren't driving the story forward. But I find that many readers, like those quiet moments, much more strongly than I would have thought you find that also
Speaker 2:They do. And I know, you know, especially when you're writing a series that has, you know, bigger CAS ensemble casts, um, of which we both have done, I feel like readers just get so invested in the characters that they want to know them so deeply. And those quieter moments where they're all, you know, just sitting around a campfire or in my case, sitting on a spaceship chatting, you know, I think that there's something to that. It kind of gives readers that moment of feeling like they're just a part of it. They're just hanging out with their friends. Um, and so I agree, I think that it's not, you know, the, the horrible must cut this from the manuscript thing that we were kind of taught that it was
Speaker 3:Exactly. And I also think those quieter moments are when bonding happens or when we reveal parts of ourselves, when we make ourselves more vulnerable and all those things go into developing the relationship with the character. So I think they're important. Um, but they're just the, just the channel.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I also think, you know, as far as serving the story, a lot of great character development and kind of pushing the character on their arc toward wherever they're heading can happen in those moments as well.
Speaker 3:Interesting in the quiet moments through, through the relationship to conversations they're having or through like their own internal, um, Tiffany
Speaker 2:Both, I think that it can be very revealing, um, to the computers to show, you know, what is it that this character is experiencing right now? What is it that they're moving toward hoping to accomplish and even seeing how they're relating to the other characters and that can, and does change over the course of a story. And it can be hard to show those things when they're running for their lives all the time.
Speaker 3:Exactly. And I also think the in conversations, I think one of the things that's most fascinating to me as a reader, and I'm assuming many readers, and especially when there's a romance involved is, you know, the power of flipping back and forth. Like who's got the upper hand in this relationship. Who's, who's exposing themselves more, who's got more on the line. And I think in quiet conversations, you can actually have a lot of that power flipping, um, you know, who, who gets apprehend, who's exposed themselves a lot more than they wanted to get. It can create that same kind of dramatic buy-in, that's some of the bigger action scenes can, if you, if, if you pay attention and make sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, definitely. And as listeners of this podcast know, I am all for the romance thing and you write exceptional romances. Um, my personal favorite is Aneth and Beltazar there. I just love them so, so much. Um, but all of your couples and the development of them and the tension between them is just, I mean, it's,
Speaker 3:It's top of the top in my bus. That brings me to my question,
Speaker 4:What are your secrets? How do you do it? Wow.
Speaker 3:So, you know, that's like a three-day workshop, right?
Speaker 4:Exactly. Give me the cliff notes version.
Speaker 3:So part of it is, um, boy, how do I take this great workshop? Um, a few years ago, like, I don't know, eight years ago at RWA conference, it was led by Michael Hague. Who's a string screenwriter and he talks about relationships and like his, and his big question is why this person and why that person, what is it about this person that makes them fall in love? What is it about this person that makes trust such an issue? Because we've all been, I mean, so it's a matter of really just drilling down into the characters and saying, why does his mate trust men? Why would she not trust men? Why would she be suspicious of all men? And, and, and why would she not ever be willing to put that aside? And it has to be, it has to be grounded in actual, real events. That, and for me, I have to actually write those events, even if it just backstory, but I can't just say, Oh, well, you know, she had a chronic family. If I have to, actually, I actually have to, I do a lot of pre-reading pre-writing and that's where I kind of like actually flesh out the actual event where it, it hardened her into that worldview. Um, because I feel like that just shapes how they view everything else. So then I think, well, so who would be a good foil to that? Who's going to be able to see through that. And so for me, I think one of the things that moves the needle on relationships is being truly, truly seen for who you are. I think, I think so many of us have the masks or roles that we play, or, um, just kind of move through the world, um, on a fairly surface level. And it's always very, sometimes we're intentionally trying to hide who we are and sometimes who we are just kind of gets buried by our daily things. And I think it's always kind of a shock when someone truly sees us and it can be terrifying, it can be exhilarating, it can be both. Um, and I think when somebody sees us truly and sees their sees maybe the best, the best version of ourselves that we want to be, I think that's really a key component of a romantic relationship. And I think, um, so Michael Hague talks about it as our essence and our persona. So the persona is who we present to the world. So with his may, she's an angry chip on our shoulder. I am going to do what the comet tells me and to get the heck out of my way kind of person that's that's her persona, but she has a much different essence, um, who she really is. And that sort of speaks to more like if you ask the questions, like what does the character want versus what they need? And it speaks more to what her emotional needs are. And then you just find somebody who's going to really play havoc with it, force, force, force, the other character to have to sort of not against the will get comfortable with their own vulnerabilities because circumstances forced them to have to. And, um, and that's my favorite thing is, is it's stripping away the layers, th th the protective layers, each of the two characters have built a little bit at a time, and then seeing how that changes the first characters opinion. It's like, Oh, okay, well maybe he's not an after all. He's just, he's just maybe a mild jerk. Oh, wait, n o, he's loyal.. I love loyalty, but t hat's sort of slow, reluctant. Okay. There's things I like about you. And I really don't want to type thing, um, which is, I think why I like to write enemies lover or, or at least not wild about two lovers, because I think there's, um, you get to, you get to play with that more. You get to sort of strip away those, those protective behaviors and sort of poke at the scars and the, and the T in the, you know, the scars, the shape, how we view the world and how we think we matter in the world. And a good love interest is going to help you see past the scars to who you really are, and then encourage that and support that and love that. And again, I feel like I'm sort of wondering the weeds with this answer, but it's, um, but so that's that's so, yeah. Maybe ask me a salvage salvage just by asking me a clarifying question.
Speaker 2:No, no, no. I, I love that. I love the way of thinking, but I hadn't heard, um, persona versus essence, but that makes sense to me. And, and, you know, that clicks in my brain as far as not just even for just writing, but like you say, in real life, we kind of go through life that way as well. Um, where the person you're putting forth, isn't always the, the person underneath. And yeah, I, I liked the way of thinking about that in a romance. And that is one of the things that's most enjoyable or most satisfying. I think both as a reader and as a writer is when you do start to see those layers peeled away and see those vulnerabilities come forward. And all of the emotions that are dredged up from that, um, is, is, can be very powerful. And of course, it's one of my favorite things to see is how the characters come together and react as they're calling.
Speaker 3:And it's one of my favorite things to write. And so Michael Hague also talks about how, you know, what we, all, all of us have these fears. We have these early childhood scars, and sometimes they're traumatic and sometimes they're just from normal, everyday growing up. But then we have these wounds when we formed these scar tissues around them. And that scar tissue is to protect us from having to feel that pain again. And so this is it. He has this whole great, um, thing he does.
Speaker 2:It's, it's so deeply
Speaker 3:Based in human nature, that it really works for me and seeing my characters, I have found it incredibly helpful. Helpful.
Speaker 2:Um, so one other thing that I wanted to talk to you about today is just kind of writing in 2020. Um, I know on your Instagram, you have had in the last couple of months, some really wonderful inspirational posts. At least they've been very inspirational for me, uh, when you've talked about just kind of how you've been coping with things and how your writing process has been changing over the course of this year, uh, kind of as your own creative and emotional needs have been changing. And I just think it's so helpful to hear that other writers are experiencing the same sort of things that I'm experiencing, um, and to hear what other people are doing to combat that. So I would love it if you could talk just a little bit about writing in 2020, how is it different this year compared to past years, and what strategies have been working for you?
Speaker 3:That's a great question because writing in 2020, it's such a challenge. Um, so I started out 2020 knowing that I was burnt out. Um, and I also included on my Instagram that you referred to, I had a post about this amazing book and YouTube series on burnout that I highly recommend any writer who's struggling right now, or pretty much anybody in 2020 really to go check out because I think we're all pretty close to burnout at this point. Um, and it was really helpful for me to recognize that I was creatively burnout and kind of give me some tools for understanding how to kind of come back from that. So that was, that was like the first half of 2020. And it was like kind of recovering from creative burnout and not putting too much expectations on myself, which would have worked out better if we hadn't had a pandemic because, and then, you know, this sort of incredibly polarized political climate because I wanted to escape into writing a book. Um, so I kind of tried to jump back on the writing bandwagon a little sooner, just, just to have the place to go hide from the world. But one of the things in this, um, burnout workshop they talked about was go back and think, when was the last time you were, you were creating happily and you were in the flow. And what was that like? What were your circumstances like, what were your, what were, was your writing process? Like, what was your household like? What were the demands on your time? And that was so helpful for me to do some journaling on that and realized, um, what was different and what I could change. And, um, and so I realized like, um, my husband had been working full time. Both the kids were away at college, and I had like the house myself 40 hours a day with the pandemic that wasn't the case. My husband was home a lot more. Um, and there, I also learned that I, I, um, there's some great personality tests out there that can sort of help you understand. And I learned that stability is a really big thing for me. So if things are really unstable, it's really hard for me to lose myself in my writing. Um, so I need to find ways to, to make my daily life as stable as possible, even if there's, you know, dumpster fires going on around me. And so for me, one of the biggest ways to do that is, and this is it's going to be too extreme for some people is I do not even look at my phone or my email until I get my writing done that day. So there are many days where I don't get on Twitter or Facebook, or even look at my email until like three 30 or four in the afternoon, because if I do my brain just becomes so fractured, I cannot get back to that place. Um, which makes it, which makes me a really crappy email correspondent and a very sporadic, um, social media poster. Um, and of course it exceptions made for family, but, but that's, that's pretty much what I do, but, but even that wasn't working. So I had, I think I mentioned it when posts, I had all these great ideas once I couldn't wait to work on and I was doing all this pre-writing, but my brain could not get quiet enough to, to work on them. Um, and also to be honest, there was a lot of research involved in world-building cause they all had a fantasy historical element to them. So one of the things I do as a writer is I always take like a hard left about every five or six years. I just, I just kind of, and so my brain said, you know, tap, tap, it's time to take a hard left. And so, um, without really even thinking about it, like I said, in my post, I just started a story idea. I've had for 10 years just kind of shut my brain. And I went to go, I thought I was gonna start jotting down things about structure and how it might work out. But I actually wrote like the actual story, which kind of surprises me, but that's, but that's how I used to write like, like 10, 12 years ago when I was writing my middle grade and first starting grade RC, that's how I started writing those books. I would just start, start writing the story and I would kind of pause and do some of this pre-writing stuff or pause and figure out things along the way, but it was much more organic. Part of that was because I had more time to have the ideas stew for, for months or years. And this idea has been suing for a long time, plus it's a contemporary, so there isn't a lot of research I need to do. I don't have to build a whole world. Um, and it's, it's writing much more in the way I did when I first started. And it's, I'm really enjoying it and it's really working for me because it's, there's a lot less, um, it's, it's, it's also much more relationship-driven, there's not a whole lot of, I'm pretty happy to not be writing politics, to be really honest. I've had my fill of court entries for just a little while and it just, so it just feels good to focus on the relationships and the silliness and the whimsy and the, um, the banter and the guy being a grumpy sob and the girls saying, Oh, no, you aren't. And you know, just, just, just the human part, just the human part. And I think, I think because in times of high instability and because life's a trash fire, it's, it's our humanist that gets us through whether it's writing about humans or the humans we reach out to. And I think writing a book that's focusing so much on that is helping it's like, it's like being able to go sit down with a couple of great friends for a couple hours every day, um, and sort of get that same kind of feeding connection that I would when I talked to a good friend or family member. Right. So, so I guess, and how that would translate for other writers is now is the time. And that's why it was so fun to hear in the introduction. You talk about your, your nano project, you're writing on something that's totally feeding you and your creativity. I think, I think frankly in 2020, that needs to be like the most, that's the number one writing advice, right? Whatever is going to feed you in whatever way that means for some, it might be writing, fighting the trash fires and others. It might be escaping into just the pure human relationships, but whatever is going to feed you and sustain you during these really kind of crazy times, that's absolutely where you should be focusing your writing entries. Sorry, all those publishers and editors who have books coming in on deadline, I'm going to say publishing is kind of totally off-kilter anyway with this deadline. So trust me on this, your writers need to be writing what feeds them, right? Yeah,
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, no, I think it will be a lot that there'll be a lot of interesting conversations happening between authors and editors here in the next 12 months.
Speaker 3:Did you a dystopian, you know, sort of hunger games, we living thing, but
Speaker 4:Couldn't do it middle grade.
Speaker 3:You know, my friend little pony fan fingers, whatever is going to bring you comfort and joy. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 4:No, I mean, I definitely, I
Speaker 2:I'm hearing you say that you're just kind of letting inspiration guide you, um, as opposed to, uh, you know, writing what you feel like you maybe should be writing or what your publisher readers want from you. Um, and hearing that correctly, I feel like that's exactly the same sort of place that I'm in right now. Um, and it does seem to be helping for sure.
Speaker 3:Oh, good. I'm glad. And also for me, it kind of makes sense logically, because I just finished up this big, you know, either five book series or two part, two part, whatever, but, you know, so I just, I just sort of closed the door on this, this world. So it's clear I'm going to be moving in some different direction. I'm not going back there at least not for a while. Um, because never say never. Um, right. So I think it's not like it'd be surprising to people that I'm working on something different. I think how different this is. Um, I mean, not even the same age group or genre really is, and I don't even know if it'll get published. It's just, what's making me happy now.
Speaker 2:Well, good, good. And, and I hope it continues to bring much joy. Okay.
Speaker 3:Yes, me too. Okay. Robyn,
Speaker 2:Wrap this up with our happy writer lightning round.
Speaker 3:Oh, that's right. I forgot about those. Okay. Let me get to mine. Let me okay. I'm ready. I'm ready. Okay. First question. What
Speaker 2:Book makes you happy?
Speaker 3:Hmm. So I've been doing a lot of comfort readings with the 2020 and the book that makes me happy is Lord of scoundrels by Loretta chase, which is a really old historical romance, which is perfection. It's just absolute historical romance, perfection, Lord of scoundrels,
Speaker 2:Lord of scoundrels. I love that title. Anything with scoundrel in the title?
Speaker 3:Yeah. What do you do
Speaker 2:To celebrate an accomplishment?
Speaker 3:I have three chocolate truffles. Why three? Well, because if I have more than that, I can make the whole bag. So three feels like it's, it's a treat, but not like, well, like what are you talking about? Like a daily accomplishment or like a big,
Speaker 2:It was perfectly legitimate. I'm just curious. The three number feels very specific and symbolic
Speaker 3:It's because I'm not supposed to, I'm eating a lot of sugar. Isn't great for me. So three truffles has is, is indulgent, but doesn't tip over my sugar and sugar. My alarms, a practical response. Yes. How do you feel the creative? Well, gosh, is anybody filling the creative? Well in 2020 know, we're trying. So, um, question, I left hearing, what do you do? How do you do it? So one of the ways, okay, so one of the, this isn't normally how I feel the creative well, but one of the things has been, I have a couple of writing friends who are just absolute joy to talk to. So having, getting on the phone and talking with them for two hours about their project or my project, or just writing in general or what we thought about this book and kind of dissecting, it has been just a lifesaver. It just, it, it, I get off the phone buoyant from that. And it goes back to that human human connection is what's feeding me creatively right now, whether it's writing human connection, my book, or forging that in the real world right now, for this year in particular, more so than other years, it's the human connection. That's really feeling that well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, that, that makes sense to me. Um, I feel like think this year with all the isolation is, feels more imperative to be making as many connections as we can.
Speaker 3:Yes. Yeah. I think so, too. What advice would you give
Speaker 2:To help someone become a happier writer?
Speaker 3:So this isn't going to be a popular answer, but it would be too, um, write for yourself. I mean, people, there's always a big discussion about whether you should write for yourself or write for your audience in that day. Yeah. But I think first we, we, we are our first audience, so we have to write something we love and I think don't be so eager to, I mean, th and this is probably easier for me to say having published books. Cause I know, I know as an unpublished author, I would hear somebody say, to say, Oh, easy for you to say, but there's a freedom of writing a book, either on spec, without being on contract or writing a book before you sold it, where you're in charge and there's nobody breathing over your shoulders. There's nobody kind of thinking. It's just, there's a lot of freedom in that. And, um, use whatever means necessary to buy yourself as much creative freedom as you can. I'll try and encapsulate it that way. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And, and very important that it has to come from you first.
Speaker 3:It really does. I mean, one of the best pieces of advice I got was to write the story you want to read, that you can't find. And that's kind of what I did with the, his fairest a nd books. It's like, there's certain types of stories I love. They're just, t here's just not enough of them out there that I'm able to find. So I think that's really great advice because if you love it, i t's probably other people do too. And there's a, probably a market for it. And then i t w ill feed you. C ause it's something you love.
Speaker 2:No, I, I forget. I mean, I've heard that also. And I think it's a very succinct, but really wonderful way of, you know, choosing what you want to do and what you want to put your time into.
Speaker 3:Yes. Oh, the other thing to do, to be happy writer is take the pressure off yourself. Do not tell yourself you have to be published by 25 or 30 or 40 or whatever. Just, just take those, take those external pressures off because they just aren't going to help. Lastly,
Speaker 2:Where can people find you
Speaker 3:I'm most active on Instagram? And my Instagram handle is RL. The fever's not Robin with fevers because all my social media is under RL. Cause that's what I started writing middle grade under. So that's where I'm most active all. I haven't been real apps in the last few weeks, but um, I have a website, Robin, the fevers.com that I update occasionally. Um, Oh see, I'm so terrible. This is why write 200,000 graph. I'm really sorry. I was so bad at delighting part of the lightning round.
Speaker 2:Oh truly. Nobody treats it like a lightening round. I should come up with something else to call it.
Speaker 3:I love the idea of it because I do like that fun quick. The fun. Yeah. No, I think it's a great idea. I just
Speaker 2:Problem is in my questions. I need to be like, you know, tea or coffee, You know, and then, you know, that's a lightening round, but whatever, it's my podcast
Speaker 3:Because your podcast, that's a great podcast, by the way. That's another thing that's given me joy in 20 is listening to you talk
Speaker 2:To all these amazing writers and hear what they have to say and hear about their processes. It's like, it's the next best thing to connecting with these writers in real life. So thank you for that. Thank you. It has certainly brought me a lot of joy. So I'm happy to hear that it is, it is helping. Uh, and that is, thank you so much for joining me today, Robin, thank you for having me. It was, it was so much fun readers. Be sure to check out Robin's newest duology uh, or the whole, his fare assassin trilogy slash King Tet, but her newest, her newest books, cording darkness, and igniting darkness are both available. Now of course, we always encourage you to support your local independent bookstore if you can. But if you don't have a local indie, you can also check out our affiliate store at bookshop.org/shop/marissa Meyer. If you're enjoying these conversations, we would love it. If you subscribed and please help us spread the word to other readers and writers, you can find us on Instagram at Marissa Meyer author and at happy writer podcast until next time stay healthy and cozy in your bunkers and whatever life throws at you today. I do hope that now you're feeling
Speaker 1:[inaudible].