Marissa chats with Ryan La Sala about his newest contemporary romance - BE DAZZLED - as well as structuring a novel in alternating Then and Now chapters, and how the Then chapters can be used to build tension in the Now; developing a romance that focuses on conflict and working through problems in order to reach that happy ending; writing what you love, regardless of what other people might think; and lots and lots of talk about the emboldening and transformative effect of cosplay.
Books discussed in this episode can be purchased from your local independent bookstore or buy them online from the Happy Writer bookshop.org store (that benefits indie bookstores) at https://bookshop.org/shop/marissameyer
Find out more and follow The Happy Writer on social media: https://www.marissameyer.com/podcast/
Marissa chats with Ryan La Sala about his newest contemporary romance - BE DAZZLED - as well as structuring a novel in alternating Then and Now chapters, and how the Then chapters can be used to build tension in the Now; developing a romance that focuses on conflict and working through problems in order to reach that happy ending; writing what you love, regardless of what other people might think; and lots and lots of talk about the emboldening and transformative effect of cosplay.
Books discussed in this episode can be purchased from your local independent bookstore or buy them online from the Happy Writer bookshop.org store (that benefits indie bookstores) at https://bookshop.org/shop/marissameyer
Find out more and follow The Happy Writer on social media: https://www.marissameyer.com/podcast/
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Speaker 2:Hello and welcome to the happy writer. This is a podcast that aims to bring readers, more books to enjoy and to help authors find more joy in their writing. I'm your host, Marissa Meyer. Thanks so much for joining me. And I do want to say thank you to everyone who has been sending kind thoughts this last week about my grandma. I really appreciate it. Uh, if you missed last week's episode, my grandma has come down with COVID. As of this recording, she has been transferred into hospice care, and I'm very sad to say that we are expecting her to pass any time. And I'm not going to talk about it too much because I don't want to start crying on my Oh, so happy podcast. Um, but I do want to take this moment to say just how incredibly grateful I have been for the doctors and the nurses who have been caring for her and treating her throughout this. Um, obviously putting themselves at a lot of personal risk to do it. And, you know, I'm aware that my family and I, we're not really special in this scenario that we're only now experiencing the sadness and the hurt that literally millions of families have been going through this past year. Uh, and so I just, I want to say just an enormous heartfelt thank you to the healthcare workers out there who have just been so tireless and so giving of themselves throughout this pandemic so that people like my grandma can be cared for and be made as comfortable as possible. So truly thank you, ed. Now let's talk about happier things. Uh, and, Oh my gosh, you guys, the book that we are going to be talking about today is so happy. It's exactly what I needed this week. And I am just super excited to talk to today's guest. He studied anthropology and neuroscience at Northeastern university in Boston, but then decided it would be more fun to write books. His debut novel reverie was a Barnes and noble. Why a book club pick among other honors his newest novel be dazzled just came out on January 5th, please. Welcome Ryan. LaSalla.
Speaker 3:Hello? Hello. Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for joining me, Ryan. And again, I just want to say thank you for being so flexible with your schedule this past week. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 3:Oh, absolutely. And, um, may I just offer my condolences hearing about your, your grandmother? I know it's, I think many people are going through right now. It doesn't get any easier, but, uh, but yeah, I'm so sorry.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. I really appreciate it. Um, okay. Let's start by telling listeners what is be dazzled about
Speaker 3:Yeah, so be dazzled it's, it's kinda, you know, it's interesting talking about this book right now because, um, you know, like you said, it's sort of a, it's meant to be like a really, really big, like pick me up and like a really fun love story. And it's, it's coming out in a time when things are a little crazy and it has everything to do with like the con world, right? Like comic book conventions, which are sort of a thing of fantasy right now. So, um, definitely, definitely a piece of escapism for, um, for young adults, really, for anybody who likes, um, sort of fun stories, especially with like characters, getting a happily ever after. Um, but I'll tell you like real quick, what it's about. It's about, um, two ex-boyfriends that are forced to compete side-by-sides during a competitive parts and cross competition at a comic book convention. Uh, if anyone's familiar with cosplay, which is when people dress up as their favorite characters from animated video games, movies, things like that, uh, and attend these events, they'll be familiar with this world, but yeah, it takes place in the world of really high caliber cost play and focuses on Raffi. Who's a really young, talented artists that is trying to prove to everyone that the work that he does on costumes and cause plays legitimate and sort of what were the of admiration from like the art world. Uh, and then the other boy is, is Luca his ex-boyfriend, who's just in it for the, you know, for the, for the glory and the participation in the, uh, the attention really. And, um, it sort of explores how both of those are completely valid approaches to this world and to, you know, to youth in general. But when, um, when they're forced to, you know, work side by side, it can be a little bit tense. So that's the book it's, um, it came out in January, January 5th, I think. And, uh, I'm so excited. People are picking it up and really loving it. So it's been, it's been kind of a really lovely, um, distraction from everything else that's going on right now.
Speaker 2:Really lovely distraction. I love that you compare that, right. That's what we do. That's our job that you compare the con world to a thing of fantasy right now, because doesn't it feel like entering this book and it's a contemporary and yet there is something very fantastical about it right now.
Speaker 3:Well, yeah. And I mean, and so have you, have you, have you had the chance to like attend like comic con
Speaker 2:Right
Speaker 3:In a like more normal year, although we seem to be having fewer and fewer of those, um, going to a huge comic book convention, or like an anime convention, actually, I think does feel sort of like entering a portal to another world because suddenly you're in like the you're in like the green room of like every single MCU movie with like wonder woman there and like, you know, B boy and Raven and there's sailor moon. And like, it's just people like, you know, eating French fries and like full Lord of the rings regalia. And it's such a really like incredible energy. And it's something that like, I love and I love going to these. And so when I attended my first one, I left it being like, this is the perfect place to sort of like capture like a story for like first love, second chances. And like all of the drama that kind of goes into it, cause it's such a high caliber fantastical setting in the real world, which is what I wanted to use. And then, I mean, lo and behold now everything's canceled. None of these things actually exist anymore. So it like turned into quite literally a fantasy.
Speaker 2:I know it's so funny. I was so sad to not get to go to comic con this year. And of course they try to host the virtual thing, but it's just nowhere near the same, not having that in-person energy and the spectacle of it all. I really, I look forward to when they come back.
Speaker 3:I know I'm, I'm excited about it, but I, I just, I worry because as it is anime and like nerd people don't interact with each other, a ton outside of these. And so the energy when they finally do, it's like so heightened and now can you imagine it's going to, like, it's going to like, be like a small, like nuclear reactor worth of energy pent up from all of these people.
Speaker 2:So, uh, so are you personally a cause player because the amount of detail that you put into Ralphie's work throughout the book and all of just the, the materials and the techniques that he's using and the tools like it was so authentic. So I figured either you yourself must be a super serious player, or you just did an extreme amount of research.
Speaker 3:You know what? I would describe myself as a cause player just because I would be humiliated if the cause players of the caliber that I'm writing about like ever discovered my work. Cause they would laugh me out the door, but I am a really intense arts and crafter. I have always been like the kind of person to, I see a project and or if I like see something that I want, but it's like expensive, I'll just make it myself. And I love making things. And so all of the things that like Rafi does are things that I've like heavily researched, but like, well, before I started writing this book, just because I love doing projects and I love costuming and, um, and fashion and like character design is, is another huge thing that, that I love. I love finding like final fantasy characters and finding like the original artwork for them. And, um, and looking at like basically how these costumes and these characters are brought to life. And so, yeah, I would, I wish I did more play. And the, the only reason that I don't do more of it is because for the last two years, I've been really busy writing a book about it. And so I couldn't spend its time. It's, it's funny. Cause I would buy all the materials just so that I could interact with them and use them. But I have not had time to put together like the costumes that I've been planning in my head for a really time. And so what I did is I made Raffi wear them half. The things that he's wearing in the novel are things that I have conceptualized designed, drawn, written up and like bought supplies for, but just haven't had a chance to actually start,
Speaker 2:Oh, I hope someday it would be great promotion for this book.
Speaker 3:I plan to, I look in my mind when, um, of course like events have not happened, but like when they're back, like I fully am like anything that has to do with me dazzle, like I'm showing up and call. So actually I've already started doing this with like virtual events, like the, the be dazzled, like launch. I didn't cause it, but I like literally be dazzled my face for it. Like I'm excited. I like, I can't wait to show up at book events here on after it, like, I dunno, dress dresses, like, like in New York,
Speaker 2:I love it. Cause I am similar. I used to do cosplay. Um, and then yeah, the career happens and books happen and suddenly it's like, who has time to do it? It's I mean, getting to put on a costume and you just feel like somebody different and the just it's crazy. The psychology behind it. Well, clothing
Speaker 3:Always been such a powerful force, like in anything, you know what it does, it re it reminds me all this point will make sense. But you know, the scene from the devil wears Prada where like Meryl Streep just delivers that incredible speech about like stuff, the word dresses down and Hathaway. Cause she is basically being like dismissive of like the, the, the fashion industry. That's how I feel about like costumes and cosplay. And people look at it as like, Oh, dress up like these fun and games, but they're not acknowledging that in myriad ways, every single day we dress ourselves into the person that we want to become. And it can be as simple as like changing your socks. Right. And like that like new, fresh feeling suddenly you're like a new person you're reborn, right? Like you switch out of your sweat pants and you put on jeans and this is something that everyone's like remarking upon now. Cause we're all in like, you know, basically sweatsuits for the past year. And then we put on real clothes and we're like, wow, I feel human again. And that's because what we wear and how we present ourselves really has a transformative effect on how we feel about ourselves and how we see ourselves. And so, um, it makes total sense to sort of further that theory into dressing up in like beautiful armor or something that makes you feel like sexy or anything that makes me feel powerful. Like I guess of course it changes sort of how you feel and, and especially for doing it with other people that like that illusion becomes its own reality for like however long you're, you're dressed up that way. And that's what I wanted to kind of capture and you know, people, people do this all the time and, and get away with real magic and like so many other people just don't know that they can do it, but they can.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. And no, and I feel like people who maybe haven't experienced it, like you just, you don't know how it is so transformative and it can just bolster you to go outside of so many comfort zones and, you know, be someone that you've maybe always wanted to be someone that you've always admired. Um, it really can be a very amazing experience.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I totally agree. Can you tell me what, um, what's like your favorite costly that you've done?
Speaker 2:Okay. So yes I can. Um, that was my favorite of all time was princess Zelda, um, from, uh, AKA Rina. Oh, great outfit. Yes. And I, but I have to say I myself am not talented. I cannot. So, um, but my mom and uncle are extremely talented and they are actually what got me into cosplay, my parents and their friends and my uncle used to all go to conventions when I was growing up. And so that's kind of how I got to know about it. Um, and so my mom was really the one that made the costume. I can't take credit for it. Um, but I felt just so incredible wearing it. And even now when I see a picture of it, I'm like, man, we really nailed that.
Speaker 3:That's great. That is such a lovely feeling. And you know, you'd be surprised a lot of cos players sort of like the world of drag too. Like you look at these and actually oftentimes what someone's wearing is a culmination of like a community's work, but they're, you know, it's just one person wearing it, but like someone did the wig, someone did the applicate work, someone else did like the makeup. And, um, you'd be surprised. I mean, I actually think that's probably more common. And if anyone's listening to this thinking like, Oh, I'm not a crafter, this is probably not for me. Like, you have to understand that like some people, their cosplay is hyper elaborate with like prosthetics and like, you know, really incredible detail work. And some people throw on a red shirt with a yellow star and they're Steven universe. Right. Like it, it does not matter, like you can really do anything and everyone's sort of welcome to try it at their own level.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. And there's not snobbery involved. I'm sure there probably is on some level, but by and large, I feel like at the conventions, there's just such a great community and people can recognize like you, you tried, you're doing it. And there, they really just embraced that.
Speaker 3:Right. Well, cause it's not, you know, it's not about you, you sort of show up and this is what I love. There's sort of this automatic humility to cause play because you show up, um, dressed as somebody else's creation. And so you're not necessarily there in the furthering of, you know, your own ego you're, you're there in participation of something awesome that everyone can interact with. You're there sort of an interactive form of something that people really love. Um, and that's where the power comes from. And yeah, of course there's personal glory and, and I mean, there's competitions, right? Like there's literally competitions for like, who's the best at it. So this is not without like some ego as part of it and actually be dazzled sort of about that, that portion of the community, the right, like really competitive side of it. Um, but by and large 99%, the people that show up to comms or, you know, they're there to just interact with one another and have an awesome time and like take goofy photos and, Oh, I'm making myself so sad,
Speaker 2:The energy so much. No kidding. What is your favorite costume that you've ever done?
Speaker 3:Um, so I was just talking about this with a friend. I, when I make costumes, I, um, I tend to be really behind and I just like throw something together and um, and they, they tend to come out good just cause I have, I know how to work with the time that I have to produce like something with like high impact. So for instance, like this past Halloween, um, I was throwing together a costume like literally like two nights before because, and of course it's Halloween and corny and like, I wasn't going anywhere, but I was like, I just had this idea of a photo that I wanted to take up myself on this costume. And, um, I cause played or I built a costume. Um, I cosplay it as the fly that landed on Mike Pence's head. Uh, just like right before Halloween. And I, I bought like a ski mask and I took some Amazon cardboard boxes and I cut them into circles and I'd be dazzled. Like I had red gemstones. So I like be dazzled to like, you know, the, the, the eyes on a B. And I made some wings out of like cellophane and pipe cleaners. And I put on like a, you know, like a sports bra and tights. And that was my, I was like the sexy fly who like landed on Mike Pence and it was great. Like the internet loved it. It got like, and then like Lizzo did the same thing. This is crazy at the same thing. So then I started seeing myself appear in like montages of people who dressed as if I was like me Janell, Monae, and Lizzo were like the three people in the internet. And like, it's like these two very famous people. And then like my dumb, it was great. It was, um, so that, that comes to mind as like, like that's very vaguely. That's not, I wouldn't even call it like a real cause it's just kind of a costume, but
Speaker 2:So many creativity points right there. Yeah.
Speaker 3:I'm laughing because people are like, Oh, you must be like a really detailed, like hardworking crafter. And I like, I always like cackle cause I'm like, no, my costumes, the costumes that I dress myself in like that it takes me about two hours and they always look like complete garbage, but like, they're funny. I always go for funny.
Speaker 2:Um, okay. So believe it or not, this is a podcast about writing, like, or we could just talk constantly the whole time. No. Okay. Let's talk craft a little bit. Um, the book is structured into alternating chapters. You've got the now chapter where we get the chapters where we get to see, you know, the, the weekend of the con and the competition playing out. And then simultaneously we get to see the ven chapters with Rafi and Luka falling in love and kind of what led to their initial breakup. Um, which I don't think is a spoiler. Cause we learned in like the first chapter that they're not together that you learn. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so take me through your thought process on ping pong. And why did you want to ping pong between these two plot lines?
Speaker 3:You know, I wish I had a good answer for this and it's sort of a multifaceted answer in general. So you'll have to let me know if any of this makes sense, but the, the, the notion that like, well, basically like from like a, I mean, I know a lot of writers listen to this podcast, so I'm just going to speak very frankly about this and it's not going to be this like whimsical, like I'm this genius artist. And so I was guided by my, you know, my, my heart's desire, none of that. Um,
Speaker 2:I'll just trust writers who talk that way.
Speaker 3:Right, right. And like, I can talk that way and I'm sure I will later, but like, but here here's the deal. So I want to start a book that took place over the course of a weekend and that focused on, um, a broken up couple being sort of forced together in the confines of local really awkward situation. And I wanted to see what happened. And so, um, and that is the book, right? Like that is all of the now chapters do take place in that. But the thing is, if you were writing like a teen character who went through like a really devastating breakup, like you're going to have many instances where you need to toggle into the past to sort of cover, you know, what happened, what happened to sort of inform this current emotion and that's going to be a lot of flashbacks and those can be really fatiguing. And so instead what I decided is I was like, you know what, because a lot of this book is going to take place with like retrospect, uh, instead of having, Rappi sort of like these like long flashbacks that are like important, but maybe I'm a little bit fatiguing for the reader. I'm was going to structure the book to be now in Ben structure. So that, uh, as we're watching, um, Rafi and Luca interact in the present, we are also in every other chapter sort of witnessing the, the formation of their original relationship. Um, and I'm going to outline in such a way, so like, I can basically figure out what these parallels are, so that like, as we're seeing something happened in the past, the next chapter in the present, there was like a riff off of that or sort of an echo to it. So that it makes sense and sort of the interlock. And I also was sort of thinking about this as like, um, an expression of like, what kind of like grief and, and, and how, like, when you break up with somebody, oftentimes when you see them, you just have that like really like reeling nostalgia where it's suddenly, you're just like plunged back into like how you felt months ago when you were still with them or, you know, what that original pain was like. And, and so I kind of wanted to capture that too. Um, all of these things are going through wrap his head as he's looking at his ex-boyfriend, um, kind of across the stage during this competition. And so the, um, that like vertigo where that whiplash was, was intentional. And if you're curious how I outline this, because I get asked this a lot, I didn't outline it like chapter one, chapter two, chapter three, I did chapter one chapter one and a half chapter two chapter two and a half. Yeah. And the half chapters were the past alternate. So I always knew the exact, like, things that have to kind of happen in, in, in order for the book to kind of zipper together.
Speaker 2:And did you write it that way? Where were you going kind of chronologically per the book or did you like focus on one storyline and then switch over and focus on the other?
Speaker 3:I outlined it, and these are really great questions. I never get to talk about this stuff and like such Frank terms. So I outlined the overarching like storyline, um, for the present day. And then in the past chapters, I sort of added, um, the details that I thought would be sort of pertinent to make the present chapters make sense. And then I wrote all of the past first so that when I went and wrote the present, um, it was very much written with the past was a real thing that we can reference. Um, and then of course I tweaked it and made sure that these things like, sort of tailored together in a, in a more seamless way. Um, but I, I personally, I like to write chronologically through a story. Um, even if the story itself is non chronological, like[inaudible],
Speaker 2:Well, I loved it because it kind of felt like getting two love stories in one. And it's like, you have the, you know, the initial love story when you get to see them falling in love for the first time. And they are just so sweet and tender with each other and you just beautifully capture how each one of them is just completely smitten with the other. And it's so sweet. And then at the same time you get the second chance storyline. Um, and I just loved it cause I'm such a sucker for anything romance. So talk to me about writing romance and, and developing romance and kind of, what are some of the things that you were thinking about as you're developing these characters and what are some things that you're hoping to capture when you're building a love story?
Speaker 3:Yeah. So one thing that young adult literature gets criticized often for is, um, themes of like instill love, right? Like you see these characters sort of meet they're shoved together by like circumstance. And they like easily fall in love in order for the book to kind of have some tension when like something goes wrong and they have to decide if they really like each other, right. Like that's, that's kind of the formula of many romance novels actually. And, um, and oftentimes like, it's this like criticism from people that kind of comes out of thinking, like, that's not real, but if you're a teenager, like, I don't know. I spent, I was a teenager and I was in love with anybody that smiled at me or gave me like that it's completely possible. And then also people were like, well, how can people get into these like bad relationships? Like don't, they know how young they are. And I'm like, you're an adult, like talking to a teen about this, but like last, okay, here's a good example. I just checked. Um, and the biggest song in the world right now is from a 17 year old, who is, um, I don't know if you've listened to this song yet. It's by Olivia Rodrigo. And it's huge on Tik TOK right now. Um, literally the biggest song in the world, like right this second, and it's called driver's license. And it's literally about how this girl is sad because she got her driver's license, but, um, she was going to celebrate it with this like guy that broke up with her like a week prior. And now she's just driving through the suburbs crying. Right. And, and all these people are like, Oh, like she's so young. And I'm like that doesn't, it's so real though, when you're, when you were that little and you, uh, and you sort of have these like huge emotions and you're not thinking like, Oh, you know, I'm in the first like, you know, portion of my life, I'm going to outgrow this. Like, that's not, what's important. It's not what's on your mind. Um, and then lastly, the, the thing that I'm thinking about as I approach this, cause I'm a author, is that oftentimes like youth does not really get a shot at, um, the really like soft and beautiful love stories that we like to read about like youth. We're oftentimes just we're, we're embroiled in a bunch of other tensions that make it really difficult to kind of sink into the formula of like a romcom, um, in which like you meet and then there's tension and then like you decide, right. Cause, cause you're coming to the table with really, um, different circumstances. Oftentimes even if you're the same age and even if, you know, you're in the same town, right. Cause it's oftentimes, um, negotiated like a family level. And so that's why I wanted to write a love story that that starts on the note of kind of like the, the tragedy of this breakup, because how often do we get it right, right away. And um, for me, that's, I never get anything right, right away. Everything, everything, everything in my life takes multiple tries. Two tries at least. Um, and so I wanted to start this story, this love story, knowing that it's a love story on a point of attention. Um, because I wanted to show that like a like second chances are a real thing, but also, you know, if I had just written the, the, the past chapters like that first part of the book and made that a happy ending, like that would have felt sort of unresolved to me because I wanted to instead show that there are ups, there are downs. Like there are real breakups that are valid that like, you know, this couple should have broken up. Right. Um, and really the tension of the story is then will why and how do they figure it out when the present day, um, that's kind of what I wanted to discuss because it feels a lot more authentic to, um, the real trials and tribulations that I think a lot of teenagers and especially teenagers are dealing with when they're encountering love. It's not this really linear kind of lovely, you know, one hour, one and a half hour, like Netflix movie. Right. As much as we wish that it wouldn't be as much as we dream of that. Right. Like, and I wish that for you, if that's what you have, like, that's great. But like the, the whole, like here, your here it, the whole like high school sweetheart, like fantasy, I don't know, a in the world is that like, got to have that. And maybe that's happening now for people, but like, it's not the case. And so that's why, like my list, we're actually very focused on like tension and conflict. Um, and, and that's sort of the focal point of it, uh, because that's, that's what I wanted to, to watch characters deal with and of work through.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Well, like on a craft level, I thought it was brilliant because you do get so much tension coming from this question that is looming over the whole book of why did they break up? And you withhold that answer for so long. And so it's like, as a reader, you're falling in love with these characters and you're so wanting them to have a happy ending. But at the same time, you don't know, you don't know what caused the split in the first place. You don't know if you should be rooting for them or not. Um, and it just, it worked beautifully.
Speaker 3:Oh, that is good to hear. I know. It's so it's so funny. Cause some people have read the book and they're like, um, the rappy says in the first chapter that they broke up and then we go to the past, like where's the tension. And I just want to like, like lightly shake them and be like, listen, like that's like, I know, I know I sort of give that away. Like you, like, do you think like I let this slip by accident? Like, do you think the book is sort of riding on the tension of like, will they break up? Like, no, that's not the point. Like the point is that they did break up and we have to figure out like why they broke up so that when, you know, they eventually do come to like the competition and the present, we have all the cards, right? Like that's the point
Speaker 2:And knowing will they be able to make it work? Whatever happened, can they get past it?
Speaker 3:Right, right. Cause you need to know what happening. You need to know if they address it. Right. And so th this is, this is what I'm thinking about. And it's very funny because most people, I will say, like have gotten it and they understand like, Oh, if, if I'm given sort of the typical card that is like the plot twist, if I'm given that in chapter one, maybe that's not the plot twist. Some people are just like, are just like kind of dumb, I guess. I don't know. I don't want to call reviewers, but when people like have that thing, I just, I sort of chuckled to myself because I'm like, Oh, like, I don't want you to, I don't want you to suffer through this entire book if you're missing. If you're making, like, if your first step into the world is like a misstep in like down the wrong path. Cause you're going to, you're going to be pretty let down.
Speaker 2:Right. No, it's impossible. Sometimes not to feel like, you know what, maybe we're just not seeing eye to eye on.
Speaker 3:Right. Oh. And which is very fair. Like I don't fault people at all for that. I just, it just amuses me to no end when people think that I, uh, and my entire editorial team like made the mistake of giving too much away. Like that's maybe not the point.
Speaker 2:Okay. I want to shift away quickly from, um, Luca and Raffi who are just absolutely lovable characters to what I'm going to call the villain of the book, the Ralphie's mother, she's got strong Cruella, Deville vibes. And I loved her, all of the descriptions of her and her artist friends. And just like how ridiculously pretentious they are. Um, I very briefly worked in the art world. I know how authentic this. Like I met people like this and it just cracked me up. Totally real. So where did that come from? What was your inspiration for EVs character?
Speaker 3:I have had so many lovely art teachers, but the art teachers that I remember are the ones that like looked at, you know, the anime drawing that I was doing. Cause I was drawing like sailor mercury for the 100th time and like just had such derision, um, in their eyes. And, and as a kid that grew up like loving to draw, like I really want it to be an artist. And I had like this notion that like I could go into like anime or manga or like cartoon like that industry. And it was the, the laugh of any art teacher that I, that I spoke with because it didn't for whatever reason, prioritized like this really like esoteric idea of like creation for the sake of like your own artistic values. And, and so ed sort of grows out of that. Cause it's a real thing in, in the art world and pretension in the art world is just it's off the walls. It's actually, I would actually say pretension is sort of the point of, of a lot of, sort of meant to be really misunderstood. It's it's sort of like, it's sort of like willfully, um, obscure half the time and it's just people sort of nodding at something and no one really gets it and there's something to really get, but like the less, the less you sort of let on, like, and like just the heavier it is culturally and like that. And so I just want to make fun of these people because they have so much money and power and um, and they just form such like this, like cadre of like elitism in, in the world of art. Um, and in meanwhile there's like many more of us well below them, like, uh, like a societal level, like just participating in like fun dress up games that like cons and like having a grand old time without really worrying at all about, about, um, you know, their approval. Right. Cause it's all art. Right. And I sort of understand that. I think most people do. Um, but it's just this, like, you know, this, this the 99 percentile, right. That, that doesn't sort of believe that. And still has for whatever reason, this grip over what isn't is not legitimate art. And so Eve sort of an expression of that and Ralphie is just the unfortunate person who happens to be related to her and, um, and uh, seeking her validation. And, and so that's why the books larger conversation. Um, yeah, it's about a relationship, but it's also about like, what is art and who gets to make art and what do we consider to be like valid craft?
Speaker 2:Yeah. And reading it. I mean, it's impossible not to draw parallels to the writing world and the world. Uh, and of course we kid lit authors. We know that there's this idea that we're, you know, writing a cute little fun books, but they're not literature.
Speaker 3:Oh, I know you're right. I guess I didn't even think about this when I was writing it, but you're right. Like the same, I'm sure this dynamic exists at any sort of like world that is like, like creative sort of like inhabit, right. Like the literature world, definitely like the art world, like yeah. It's, it's all over the place. It's all over the place.
Speaker 2:Yeah. No, and it, it speaks to me, it speaks to me as a writer and it speaks to me as somebody who's been in the art world. And I remember like one of my lowest moments cause I was an editor and the publisher I worked for, uh, did fine art books. And so at one point the editorial team was invited to a gallery, um, you know, an exhibition opening. And I remember at one point talking to the curator, we're at this very swanky party, we're looking at this painting and I was like 20 years old and clueless. And I just started spouting out every like pretentious, random, like BS about this painting. And I walked away from that feeling so icky and like, Hey clearly this is, this is not who I am and this is not who I want to be. And so just reading about Evie and Rafi and them kind of butting heads over art, I dunno. It, it, it brought back a lot of memories, but in a good way, like I felt secure in, in my feelings about this as well.
Speaker 3:I'm glad, I'm glad I know. I, the thing is any, so I know a lot of people in this world and most of the people that I know, like one of the people, um, that I interviewed for this as like a consultant, um, in like the high art world who, um, has worked at like just incredible galleries and stuff like that too. And she's extremely down to earth and just the stories that she has about like what these people get away with in terms of like, just like, you know, the access that they gate keep is quite incredible. And so this is, this is sort of my, like my attack upon, upon that. I don't love gatekeepers and I especially don't love them when it comes to beekeeping, um, young artists or really any artists, but especially people that are sort of getting into the arts out of taking themselves seriously. Cause a lot of people are turned away from even book writing because they, they would rather, um, they would rather write like, you know, in the world of like the hunger games or something like that. And they're, and they're, you know, that's where they're comfortable, um, is, is sort of using someone else's squirrel to sort of like cut their teeth and that's fine. That's great. You should do that. Like if that's what you want to do, like that's, that's legit too. Um, but a lot of people would argue that it isn't and it's lesser. And um, and that argument goes, yeah, all the way up to kid lid authors who are, you know, selling literal books to like actual kids. And that's very legitimate yet. Like still, even within that legitimacy, there's this like grain of like, Oh, that's not real lit. Right?
Speaker 2:Right. No. And you hate to think about someone trying to force themselves into a, to be a certain something because they think that that's what they need to become. Or that's, that's real art. That's what I should be striving for as opposed to just embracing what you truly love and what truly speaks to you. It's it's it does happen. And it's sad. Don't do that. Writers write what you love, right. Where the inspiration takes
Speaker 3:You. I totally agree.
Speaker 2:Okay. We're going to now wrap this up with our happy writer bonus round. Okay. What book makes you happy?
Speaker 3:Ooh. Um, my, okay. I'm like looking around. So I'm going to, I have to say the book that I'm reading right now, this is, this is like the oddest answer in the world, but I'm literally looking at it is, um, the book that makes me happy right now is modeling by Tyra banks. This novel that Tyler big, no one knows about this. Cause it's like this, like for whatever reason, this like mass amnesia has overtaken everybody in kid lit, but like Tyra banks wrote a book called model land. It's like, this is like dystopian fantasy. It came out in 2012. I think
Speaker 2:I have not read it, but I have, I had a friend years ago who was reading it and I, he, he talked to me a lot about this book. Remember his long, long dissertations about it?
Speaker 3:Yes. Okay. So it is like, it is like either it's like, it's like the work of a lunatic it's so it makes me so happy and it's, it's very Tyra. And if you are familiar with like, Tyra's work on like America's next top model, like terrorizing those poor girls, it's like the same terrorism, but put into like books and, um, it's impossible to get ahold of because like they printed like 10 of them and they all sold quickly entire hit the bestsellers list. And like now it's out of print and anyhow, um, another author who you may know Claribel Ortega. And I, we have, we started a podcast cause we're both reading it. And we were like, we should basically like make a book club out of this. And so, um, every week we like sit down with like a chapter of model and by Tyra banks and like discuss it in depth in terms of its merit, its failings like the details, the language, the edits, like all of it. Um, and it brings me so much joy.
Speaker 2:That's hysterical. What is your podcast called?
Speaker 3:So you can, it's called celebrity book club and there's a few celebrity book club podcasts out there. So if you search for it, search like somebody's book club, uh, with Ryan and Claribel or like find me on Twitter and you can, um, you can find it there, but yeah, it's um, we're on like episode 10, we're having like a live show coming up because people, the funny thing is, is like people have now found and procured the book and like started reading along with us and are sending us like their thoughts and their predictions. And we're getting like messages from people that are like, well and defensive Tyra. Like I actually do think that this choice made sense and we're like, no, nothing makes sense. So we're like, we're like in like hot debates about it's, it's become its own like little, little thing. And so it, it makes me very happy that it was a quarantine project that kind of quickly became like overgrown between Claribel and I, and now is like, uh, now it's a whole thing. So yeah, where I'm getting my happiness right now.
Speaker 2:I love that. I feel like quarantine projects are taking over the world right now.
Speaker 3:Cause they were all started. And then the people that sort of stuck with it and like developed into something bigger than they thought. And now like, yeah, I I'm with you. Like I have the books that I know that are being like purchased by publishers were quarantined projects that got started out of like just the necessity of having NSBE.
Speaker 2:It's something to do. I need something happier to do with my time right now.
Speaker 3:Oh right. That,
Speaker 2:Okay. What is your personal mantra?
Speaker 3:My personal mantra for a long time has been, uh, if people stop inviting you to their parties, you just throw better parties yourself.
Speaker 2:Brilliant.
Speaker 3:It got me out of a lot of, uh, a lot of, uh, a lot of self pitying moments in the middle and high school when I was like, Hmm. All right, well that's fine. I'll just throw a better party. Then I threw the parties and I invited who I wanted.
Speaker 2:There's a bittersweetness to that, but I'm glad it seems to have had a happy
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely. No one, no one should pity me.
Speaker 2:What advice would you give to help someone be a happy?
Speaker 3:Hmm. I would expand your definition of what counts as writing. Um, so many things that are not literally sitting in front of your blink manuscript. Um, I think are actually really legitimate exercises when it comes to working on a book. And so, uh, you know, for me that's doing arts and crafts and sometimes just like taking in a movie that I really love to remind myself what inspires me. But if you can't rationalize spending time on non-writing tasks while you're like under deadline, um, cause it makes you too anxious, which I also understand, uh, consider doing some more like, uh, exploratory writing exercises that are not literally in your manuscript, if that's kind of where you're exploring writer's block, but are sort of beyond it. So for instance, I always tell people like you're a fantasy writer, um, start writing Wikipedia pages for like the kingdom that you're working on and the magic system and things like that, things that are writing and sort of the, the task of building a world, but are not necessarily the like really scary task of actually building up your word count.
Speaker 2:No, that's really great advice. It's it can be hard to get past like the, I need to hit this word quota, but sometimes you need to build a Pinterest inspiration board.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah. Oh absolutely. And all that stuff is great. I do warn people against getting like a little bit too carried away and only doing those things like, Oh, I have, um, like if you notice that like I haven't completed a single project, but I have vision boards like up the wazoo for like them, like maybe we got to address that. Right. But yeah, but I think that, like, I think that like doing art around your books, um, or vision boards or any of that stuff can really be a very, um, sort of subtle way of like unlocking writer's block.
Speaker 2:Lastly, where can people find
Speaker 3:You? So if you, for whatever reason, want more of this, um, there, uh, there's many places to find me. Um, you can go and listen to celebrity book club, the podcast that I mentioned, but, um, I'm on Twitter at reality. I am on Instagram at R Y underscore LA underscore S a, uh, I am on Tik TOK. I am on YouTube. I'm I'm all over you really? You can't throw a stone at book like the bookish internet and like not hit something that has my name on it. So, you know, at your own risk, give me a Google, find my website and follow me on all of those places. I, um, I am now getting really into sort of ironically, because be dazzled is about like crafting and stuff like that. And streaming, like, I should have done this before we wrote the book, but I'm doing it after. Um, I have now started like streaming crafting and, uh, and the actual projects that I'm working on now that I have more time, uh, and nowhere to go. So I've started, um, recording videos of me doing arts and crafts usually kind of drunk on YouTube.
Speaker 2:That's incredible. I love that. That's fun. Good for you. All right, Ryan, thank you again so much for joining me today.
Speaker 3:Yes, absolutely. This was such a blast. Thank you so much for having me
Speaker 2:Readers. Be sure to check out, be dazzled, which is available now. Of course, we always encourage you to support your local indie bookstore if you can, but if you don't have a local indie, you can also check out our affiliate store at bookshop.org/shop/marissa Meyer. If you're enjoying these conversations, please subscribe and leave a review on Google or Apple podcasts. You can also follow us on Instagram at Marissa Meyer author and at happy writer podcast until next time stay healthy and cozy in your bunkers and whatever life throws at you today. I do hope that now you're feeling a little bit
Speaker 1:[inaudible].